Bernie Sanders Interview | Lex Fridman Podcast #450

the ideas that I am talking about are ideas that are widely supported everything that I talk about raising the minimum wage health care for all a tax system which demands the billionaires pay their fair share those are all popular ideas but people didn't know you got to run for president and have 20,000 people come out to your rallies and win 23 States they H well maybe those eyes are not ideas are not so crazy after all and we got to entertain them the establishment doesn't like that they really don't they want to tell you and

this is their main This Is How They succeed what they say Lex is the world is the way it is it always will be this way we got the wealth we got the power and don't think of anything else this is this is the way it is you you have no power give up that they don't say it quite that way but that's really what the intent is and what we showed is guess what you know running a a a an outsider campaign we took on the Democratic establishment we came close to winning it and

we did win 23 States and the ideas that we're talking about are the ideas that workingclass people young people believe in the following is a conversation with Bernie Sanders senator from Vermont and two-time presidential candidate both times as the underdog who against the long odds captivated the support and excitement of millions of people both on the left and the right this is Al Le Freedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Bernie Sanders growing up did you ever think you'd be a politician nope not in

a million years uh yeah I know that you hate talking about yourself which is rare for a politician I would say what's your philosophy behind that you like talking about the issues you talk I mean you know everybody talks about themselves it's not about me you know nice guy not a nice guy what's the what you know politics should be about as the issues facing the people of our country the people of the world and how we're going to address it that's what it should be that said there's uh interesting aspects to your life story

for example in uh 1963 you were very active in the Civil Rights Movement got arrested even for uh protesting segregation in Chicago and uh you attended the the famous March on Washington where MLK gave his uh I Have a Dream speech well was that like it's extraordinary I took a bus ride down with fellow students in the University of Chicago and it was a zillion people there I'm not sure if it was the first time I'd ever been in Washington in my life but it was you know it was a very impressive moment and what

he was talking about with people very often forget about that it was not only racial Justice it was jobs jobs and Justice that was the name of that rally and uh so it's something I've never forgotten what what uh influence did he have on you what did you learn about the way he uh enacted change in the world King was a very impressive guy uh more impressive I think than people think that he was uh and what he did is he created his movement from the bottom on up so was he developed real organization Grassroots

organization which put pressure on communities and officials to end seg ation to open up voting patterns and I think what has to also be remembered about King which is really quite extraordinary is you know he won the Nobel Peace Prize and every was oh you're great you're wonderful but then to the end of his life he took on Lyndon Johnson on the war in Vietnam and as soon as he did that suddenly the editorial Pages throughout America establishment papers uh no longer thought he was so great in fact the message sent out you're black deal

with civil rights don't worry about foreign policy we'll take care of that but he said you know if I talk about peace and nonviolence I can't sit back and allow what's going on in Vietnam to continue without speaking out incredible courage to do that and by the way when he was assassinated at a uh fighting for the rights of asme workers Garbage Guys Who deliver the garbage who were treated terribly low wages bad working conditions and went out to support their right to form a union that's when he got killed so on the war front

one of the things that uh people don't often talk about your work in politics you gave what I think is uh a truly Brave speech on on the Iraq War in uh 2002 I believe uh you voted no on the Iraq resolution you voted no on the Patriot Act and uh you basically predicted very accurately What would happen if we go into Iraq what was your thinking at the time behind that those speeches behind voting no on the Patriot Act on the Iraq resolution and maybe ironically came out of maybe the war in Vietnam and

the ease and lies that people told we went into Vietnam uh under a lie uh we lost close to 60,000 Americans millions of people in Vietnam Cambodia died as a result of that so you think twice about it and then the war uh Iraq you had you know people like d Cheney and others telling us oh they have nuclear weapons and all that stuff it's the only way we can resolve the issue I didn't believe it I didn't agree with it and you're right turns out historically uh I was right what's the way to fight

this thing that uh Martin Luther King tried to fight which is the military industrial complex it's huge I mean it gets to the broader issue of where we are as a nation and what I you you know almost uniquely in Congress talk about is the fact that we are moving Lex to an oligarchic form of society and not a lot of people are familiar with that term but what it means you know we talk about oligarchy and Russia oh Putin is surrounded by the oligarchs well guess what what do you think is happening in the

United States so what you have right now is an economy with more concentration of ownership than we've ever had all right that means whether it's agriculture Transportation Healthcare whatever it may be fewer and fewer massively large corporations control what's produced and the prices we pay and then you look at our political system and it's we don't talk about it what is the reality of the political system today and that is that billionaires are spending huge amounts of money to buy this election in Trump's campaign you got three uh multi-billionaires spending over $200 million three people

Democrats have their billionaires not quite as concentrated but at the end of the day billionaires play an enormous role in in terms of electing politicians and in Washington in determining What legislation gets seen and not seen but it's not just single billionaires it's companies with lobbyists you got it let me give you one example lobbyists we pay in the United States by far the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs this is an issue I've been working hard on with some success take a wild and crazy guess how many lobbyists are there from the

drug companies in Washington DC well over a thousand over a thousand right there are 100 members of the Senate 435 members of the House 535 members of Congress there are 18800 well-paid lobbyists representing the drug companies including former leaders of the Republican and Democratic party that is why one of the reasons why we pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs military-industrial complex you got a revolving door people go from the military into the General Dynamics into LED Martin and the otherw large companies and what we see there is an institution in the

Pentagon we spend a trillion dollar a year on the Pentagon it is the only Federal agency that cannot is not able to submit to an independent audit so if you think there's not massive fraud and waste and cost overruns in the Pentagon you would be sorely mistaken do you think most politicians are corrupt in accepting the money or is the system corrupt or is it a bit of both if the corrupt means that hey you here's $10,000 vote this way doesn't work like that very very rare occasionally very very rare that's corruption what happens is

that if you are in a campaign and right now the amount of money that people have to raise you're running for Senate in Ohio you're talking about 5060 million where the hell you going to get that money it's not going to be $10 donations you're going to be surrounding yourself with people who have the money you're going to go $5,000 uh a plate dinners Etc so you surround yourself with those people who say oh these are my problems this is what I need this is I need a tax break for billionaires blah blah blah blah

so you become you live in that world they are your financial support they are in a sense your your political base so you're very cognizant of what you do uh in terms of not upsetting them so it's not corruption in the sense of people you know taking envelopes with you know huge amounts of money to vote a certain way that very very rarely if ever happens it is the power of big money to make politicians dependent on those folks and that's why you know when I ran for president but I'm probably maybe most proud of

is the fact that we received millions and millions of campaign contributions averaging 27 bucks a piece I think in 2016 have companies lobbyist ever try to buy you try to influence you we don't welcome them into our office I do deal with these guys but it's usually on a confrontational tone no so they don't come in to my office very often telling me their problems so how do we fix the system how do we get money out of politics this is not you know like many other issues I we don't have to reinvent the wheel

here it exists in other countries uh if you go to you know every country has their own election system but nobody has a system where billionaires can spend unlimited sums of money through super Pacs to elect the candidates of their choice so first thing you got to do and it it you know one of the things Lex I found that the more important the issue the less discussion there is the less important the issue the more discussion there is a number of years ago the United States Supreme Court in one of its more pathetic uh

decisions pass the the citizens united decision and what citizens united decision said is you're a multi-billionaire you want the freedom you're a free person in a free country you want the freedom to buy the government and how terrible it would be to deny you the freedom to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a campaign to elect the candidates and they said that's that's the that's your freedom and that's what citizens united is about uh we've got to end that uh in in my view we move to Public Funding of Elections that means you want

to run for governor you want to run for Senate show that you have some support get you know $5 contributions from X number of people to show you you're know you're not a flake uh you have some support and government will pay certain amount more and there will be a limited the amount of money that can be spent so it'll be a real you can run against me and I'm not going to outspend you 10 to one that's what we should be moving toward in my view how do we make that happen when uh there's

so much money in the system and the politicians uh oh to the people who paid for their election does it have to come from the very top essentially sort of a a really strong popular populist president but you're right you raised exactly the question if I am getting a huge amount of money from billionaires do you think I'm going to go out and announce I think billionaires should not be involved in buying elections I doubt that very much so what you're going to need and you tell me if I'm missing something but I pay attention

you don't hear either of the major candidates talking about that issue do you I think what happens is when an individual politician speaks out about it they get punished but I think this is a popular idea so if a lot of them speak out that's why would if it came from the top if a president was using a very large platform to basically speak out it provides a safety blanket for the other politicians to get it out of the system but there has to be kind of a mass movement of it yes it does I

mean and every place I go I I always speak about the issue and it always people understand it you're a republican you're a Democrat you're Progressive you're conservative who really believes that we are democracy when billionaires can spend you know tens and tens of millions of dollars to to buy election so it is a very popular issue it's important you're right we need political leaders to be speaking out on that but we need a Grassroots movement to say when somebody is at a town meeting you're running for the Senate you're running for the house what's

your view on citizens of United are you prepared to vote to overturn that decision and and move the Public Funding of Elections extraordinarily important so uh many of your policy proposals are quite radical no they're not I beg to differ okay great go through well they're popular so so what I mean is relative to what the way other politicians speak it's usually a little bit more moderate so from everything you've learned from politics is it better to go sort of uh radical maybe we can come up with a different word versus a more moderate safe

ambiguous kind of policies okay let's let's talk about it fair enough we talked about one issue very important money in politics money yes getting money out of big money out of politics do you think that's a radical idea well I mean yeah I it's a popular idea it's a idea that makes sense but in order to implement it and actually make it happen requires uh I mean to to flip the system upside down right in that sense it's radical in that sense it's radical but if you go to walk down the street here and you

say do you think billionaire should be able to spend this as much money as they want to buy politicians I would say nine out of 10 people say that's crazy that's not what America is supposed to be about so in that sense it's certainly not radical let's talk about Healthcare go out on the street do it we do a poll I've done the polling is Health Care a human right should every American be able to go to a doctor when they need regardless of their income you know what people say I would say about 85

90% of the people say of course the idea that Health Care is a human right available to all exists Lex in every major country on earth except the United States so you're here with me in Burlington Vermont right if you got a call go 50 miles north to Canada walk to the Canadian you know walk into Canada and uh ask people when you go to the hospital how much does it cost to you which kind of building they say you what are you talking about doesn't cost us anything doesn't cost us a nickel that's the

case in virtually every country in Europe so the idea that Health Care should be available to all that there should be no out-of-pocket expense because it's a human right uh is widespread around the world and very much agreed to in this country bottom line is that because of our corrupt political system we have a health care System designed not to provide Health Care to old people to make huge profits for the drug companies and the insurance companies and that is what's happening and we got to change that system so I'm a strong Advocate and I've

led the effort on Medicare for all okay let's talk about Medicare for all if you could snap your fingers today and implement the best possible healthc care system for the United States of America uh what would that look like well we have a pretty good system not great but a pretty good system in Medicare so it's it's there for the elderly and Lyndon Johnson passed that in the 1960s a huge step forward uh it is being chopped Away by the private insurance companies through Medicare Advantage but if you strengthen Medicare and you do away with

the kind of deductibles the seniors now have to pay you do away with other stuff and you say basically right now you're a senior in America go to any doctor you want uh you know when you're in the hospital Medicare will pay the entire Bill if you expand Medicare to cover dental hearing and vision which it doesn't Now cover you do all of those things and then the next thing you do is say okay to be eligible for Medicare now you have to be uh 65 first year we're going to lower it to 55 then

we'll lower it to 45 then we'll lower it to 35 then we'll have everybody in the system so I think in a four or 5e period you can strengthen medic and have everybody in the system and when you do that and this is not just me talking number of Studies have pointed this out when you take the profit motive out of it from the insurance companies and the drug companies you can end up providing quality care to all people and no more than we're spending right now because right now we are spending twice as much

per personal healthare as the people of any other Nation incredibly wasable system so the way to pay for the system is to increase taxes but you're saying if you cut that cost and increase the taxes you're saying it's going here's the story I've gotten my share of 302 ads attacking me on this Bernie Sanders wants to raise your taxes on Healthcare it's true in a progressive way but right now do you have health insurance yes okay somebody's paying for your health insurance it depends if you are working most people get their health insurance through their

jobs okay so if you're working for a large company your employer is paying your health insurance and by the way that comes out of your wages health care costs in America are very high and your employee will tell you honestly look I can't give you more than a 3% wage increase because I got a 10% increase in your health care cost you want that or if you're Union negotiating you know what they'll say Hey you want decent wages we're going up to cut back on your Healthcare that's what every Union has to deal with you

know every every negotiating session so we're paying for it through employers out of pocket we pay through it through Medicare Medicaid Veterans Administration Etc uh what I am proposing is really not radical it's what exists in Canada and other countries it is publicly funded like the police departments and like libraries are and like public education is is publicly funded in a progressive way so right now rather than paying out of your own pocket if you are uh a family let's just say you're self-employed right now and you are uh you know you want you have

a couple of kids and a wife it could cost you 15 $20,000 a year in insurance cost well that's all eliminated will you have to pay more in taxes because you will maybe it depends on your income level but it could be that you'll be paying $122,000 more in taxes but not $20,000 more in premiums co- payments and deductibles you save money so it's paying taxes rather than paying money to the insurance company you got a better deal through the tax system so the most painful thing in today's system is the surprise bills the number

one cause of bankruptcy and uh the psychological pain that comes from that just worrying stressed in debt you got it and just basically afraid constantly of getting sick because you don't know if insurance is going to cover it and if you're not insured you don't know how much it's going to cost so you're not going to go to the hospital even if there's something wrong with you if there's pain and all that so you just live in a state of fear psychological fear that's the number one problem is it's not just Financial psychological look and

I think you said it very well I you know I'm chairman of the committee that deals with this stuff so I talk to a lot of doctors and doctors in Vermont and all over this country tell me that they are astounded people walk into their offices much sicker than they should have been and the doctor said why didn't you come in here six months ago when you first you know felt your symptoms and they said well you know I I have a high deductible of at $10,000 deduct by I don't have any money to pay

I'm uninsured some of those people don't make it other people and this is what is totally crazy they end up in the hospital at huge expense to the system rather than getting the care they need when they needed it so that is how give you another example of it we pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs one out of four Americans can't afford the drugs their doctors prescribed so you walk into the doctor's office they say Okay Lex you got this that and the other thing here's a prescription you can't afford to

fill it what happens you get sicker you you end up in the emergency room which is an extremely expensive proposition okay or you end up in the hospital could you know rather than dealing with the problem when it occurs and and what is not talked about you know I mentioned earlier how we don't talk about some of the major issues the estimate is that some 60,000 people in America die every single year unnecessarily because they can't get to a doctor when they need because of financial reasons and you want to hear even crazier one out

of four people who get cancer treat in this country either go bankrupt or deplete their financial resources of their family so your point is right you know if somebody diagnoses you with cancer you're scared to death you're worried about how you're going to live you're going to die what's going to happen and then on top of that you got to worry about whether your family goes bankrupt how insane and cruel is that so to me you know I think Health Care is what unites us all everybody has family they get sick we'll get born we

all die we all want care and we all have got to come together to create a system that works for all of us not just the drug companies or the insurance companies there's just so many stories and not even the horrific stories there countless horrific stories but just basic stories of cost like my friend uh a Doctor Peter Atia has this story where he happens to be uh wealthy so he can afford it but he had to take his son to the emergency room and the son was dehydrated and the bill was $6,000 they just

did a basic test and gave him an IV a basic thing and he has really good insurance and the insurance covered $4,000 of it so he had to at the end pay $2,000 for a basic emergency room visit and there's a lot of families for whom that one visit for such a simple thing would be just financially devastating and you know what people know that and you know what they say you know something I don't feel well today yeah something's wrong I ain't going to go to that emergency room because I don't want a $6,000

Bill and what happens he had insurance that paid two-thirds of it right yes so what if he didn't and what happens if he didn't have money he'd be handed by bill collectors for the rest of his life so it's a it is a disgusting system it is an inhumane system uh but you know the insurance companies and the drug companies are very powerful and they make a lot of campaign contributions have a lot of lobbyists and we are where we are but you know I think you know the American people want fundamental changes there so

that's another good example of a really popular idea that is not uh implemented because of the money in got it that's a wonder and I'll tell you that not only that not only is it not implemented because of money it's not even discussed all right so I'm saying here and no one disputes me we are spending twice as much per person on healthare right and yet 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured and our life expectancy is lower than virtually every other major country do you think that might be an issue that we'd be discussing

again if a single politician discusses it they get punished for it so there needs to be a mass movement and um probably I mean from my perspective it has to come from the very top it has to come from the president and the president has to be a populist president where they don't don't care about the parties with the rich people they just speak out because they know it's a popular message and they know it's the right thing so speaking of that you had a historic campaign run for president in 2016 and uh in the

eyes of many people mine included you were screwed over by the DNC as the especially the Wikileaks emails showed what's your just looking back feelings about that are you angry are you upset yeah of course I'm angry and of course I'm upset but you know when you take on in this case the Democratic establishment uh who who have controlled that party forever the moneyed interest in the Democratic party you know you're taking on Corporate America when you're taking on the corporate media and when you're calling for a political revolution that creates the government that works

for all and not just a few you know the opposition is going to be extraordinary uh but what I am extremely proud of from that campaign in 2020 as well is that we took on the anointed candidate of the establishment and we showed you know we showed despite the fact the entire establishment I had in the Senate I had one supporter there were 50 Democrats I had one supporter I had no Governors supporting me I think maybe a few people in the house but we took on the whole political establishment and we did you know

we got millions of votes and and the ideas that we brought forth uh were ideas that they had to eventually deal with one way or another and if you look at the American Rescue plan which I'm proud to I've helped right uh during the midst of Co a lot of the ideas that we fought for were implemented in that bill and I want to make them obviously permanent and you almost won and a lot of people thought that you would win against uh Donald Trump I think we would have I think we would have um

you know I think Trump is a very you know I think he's a little bit crazy between you and me but he is a smart politician and is appealing to a lot of the anger uh that workingclass people feel and you know what workingclass people should feel angry but they should make sure that their anger is directed in the right direction and not against people who are even worse off than they are which is what demagogues like Trump always do so you know I think we had as I went around the country then and and

now we have a lot of support from workingclass people who understand that there is something wrong and this is an incredible fact that no one talks about all right I'm going to ask you a question are you ready for this Lex let's go here we go over the last 50 years there's been a massive increase in worker productivity as a result of Technology right everyone agrees that and it's I don't know exactly what is but the worker today is producing a lot more than the worker 50 years ago doing something similar is the worker today

in real inflation accounted for dollars making more money than that worker 50 years ago well there's a lot of close arguments there but I your point is well taken it's either the same or a little bit higher or a little bit lower depending on the statistics it has not increased significantly and the wealth inequality has increased significantly that is the point so you would think that if a worker is producing a lot more that worker would be better off would be working lesser hours Etc that hasn't been the case and what has happened in that

50 years is according to the Rand Corporation there has been a 50 trillion trillion with a t redistribution of wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 1% so you got CEOs today making 300 times more than their workers you got three people on top owning more wealth than the bottom half of American society so that's why people are angry and they're worried that their kids may have a lower standard of living than they in the wealthiest country in the history of the world so there's a lot of anger out there and I think we

tap some of that anger in a constructive way essentially saying you know what we don't need so few to have so much in wealth and power let's distribute it more fairly in America I got to get back to 2016 because it's such a historic moment so there's a lot of fans of yours that uh wanted you to keep fighting because you forgave in the end the establishment and joined them in support and your fans wanted you keep fighting for a takeover for a progressive takeover of the democratic party um if you just look back and

had to do it all over again what would you do different well by the way in terms of a take over the Democratic party we did try we ran do you know who Keith Ellison is Keith is now the Attorney General uh of the state of Minnesota he's doing a great job really one of the outstanding attorneys Generals in the country uh and Keith was then a member of Congress and we ran Keith to become the head of the DNC and the establishment from the president of the United States on down when C easy and

they beat him by a few votes not a whole lot um so it's look you you face and you know that's the exact same position that many of us are in right today so people say well why did you support Hillary Clinton yeah what's the alternative Donald Trump I think Donald Trump is an extremely dangerous person trying to undermine American democracy so I can't support him you know Hillary Clinton obviously his views are very very different than mine uh but that in that moment you know that's where politics becomes really tricky and it ain't easy

and uh you know sometimes you have to do things that you're not really all that excited about but I think it was right to try to do what I could to prevent Trump from getting uh uh elected and in 2020 I did the same with Biden and we had more success with Biden than we had with Clinton well there's this interesting uh story about a long timec coming meeting between you and Obama in uh 2018 I believe so Ari rabenhof who was a former deputy campaign manager wrote a great book I would say about you

called the Fighting Soul on the road with Bernie Sanders and uh he tells many great stories but one of them is your meeting with Obama and he says that Obama told you Bernie I wish I could do a good Obama impression uh Bernie you're an Old Testament Prophet a moral voice for our party giving us guidance here's the thing though prophets don't get to be King Kings have to make choices prophets don't are you willing to make those choices basically Obama is making a case that you have to sort of um moderate your approach in

order to win so was was Obama right look and again that's why politics is very very fascinating you know sometimes you can run and lose and you really win if your goal is not just individual power a transforming Society uh one of my heroes you mentioned Dr Martin Luther King Jr who is one of my heroes another one of my heroes is Eugene Victor Debs that ring a bell yeah yes okay for many reasons yes all right Debs many listeners may not know who Debs was Debs was a union organizer in the early 1900s helped

form the American Railway Union ran for president I think five times ran the last time while he was in a jail cell because of his opposition to World War I and got a million votes doing that Debs lost badly in every race that he ran in 1932 Franklin Del Roosevelt ran for president and much of what Roosevelt ended up doing was at least some of what Debs had talked about Debs helped lay the groundwork for ideas so sometimes you can lose and win if you're into transforming uh Society what my view is where I disagree

with Obama is I think you have got to raise Consciousness among Ordinary People and when people know what's going on and are prepared in an organized way to fight for change they can make incredible changes and we've seen that in recent years you know today we take for granted well we have a woman running for president of the United States so I'm supporting uh we have had other women running for president we have women Governors and Senators not so many years ago in the United States Senate there were 98 men two women all right even

before that 1920 it was when women got the right to vote how did that change how did women's role in society change it changed because women and their male allies stood up in fors gay rights I you know old enough to remember that anybody I knew who was gay you think they would talk about it come out about it no they wouldn't that's changed um we have seen you know in terms of civil rights massive changes uh change happens when people at the Grassroots level demand that we talked about Healthcare a moment ago we will

get Universal Medicare for all when millions of people make it clear that's what they want so I believe politics thoughts at the Grassroots level and that's how you got to bring about change so just to go back to Obama though in many ways he too is a singular historic figure in American politics who has brought about a lot of change he's a symbol I think that would be remembered for a long time uh what do you um what do you admire most about Obama well you know I know him we're not best friends but I

know him well and we chat every once in a while first of all don't underestimate what it was uh in 2008 to be the first black president in the history of this country uh and I think few would deny that he's an extraordinarily intelligent guy uh very very articulate one of the best speakers that there is in America and that he and his family and again it's a lot harder than it looks he and his family for eight years that's his wife Michelle and his kids uh really held that office in in in a way

that earned I think the respect of the American people even if people disagree with him politically um so he deserves and again don't ever don't underestimate I think you know years ago there were people who said a black president in our lifetimes never going to happen can't happen to racist the country he did it and that is a huge accomplishment uh and I think you know he has had some significant achievements uh in his presidential tenure uh he and I you know did disagree is on on on a number of issues I think he will

tell you I think his public stance is that yeah if you had to start all over again he would do Medicare for all Single Payer but where we are right now the best he could do is the Affordable Care Act well we disagree on that and we disagreed on other things but you know I think uh he deserves an enormous amount of credit for what he has accomplished and he like you also gave a a damn good speech opposing the Iraq War before uh before running for president and that takes courage yes it does but

then it also shows that once you get into office it's not so easy to oppose or to work against the military industrial complex it is very hard that people do not fully appreciate how powerful The Establishment is whether it is the healthc care industry uh whether it's the military industrial complex whether it's the fossil fuel industry these people have unlimited amounts of money they are very smart lobbyists in Washington DC and they are very very greedy people they want it all I have to ask you about capitalism the pros and cons so you wrote a

book it's okay to be angry about capitalism that is a a thorough rigorous criticism of I would say hyper capitalism yes that's right a certain kind of capitalism that uh you argue that we are existing in today in the United States but a lot of people would attribute to capitalism all the amazing technological innovations over the past 70 plus years that have contributed to U increase in quality of life in uh GDP in uh decrease in poverty decrease in uh infam mortality increase in uh expected life life expectancy so what are the sort of how

do you uh see the tension the pros of capitalism and the cons of capitalism you know some of my European friends they say you know Bernie in the United States you're considered to be very radical if you were here in you know France or uh Denmark or someplace you'd be kind of mainstream left guy yeah not all that radical so this is what I think I mean I think the best that we could do right now where we are right now now is to create a society which does two things it encourages Innovation but at

the same time it makes sure that all people in a wealthy Nation have a decent standard of living in some countries if you look at Scandinavia and this shocks people because we don't talk about this at all so in Scandinavia has been the case you know Denmark Finland Norway for years that people have Healthcare that's not a big de you end up in the hospital so what they don't pay a bill you have and this shocks people in America right now we have people who get one week two weeks off paid vacation sometimes people get

nothing you know that there are people out there have no vacation at all you know in in Germany you get six weeks paid vacation and other holidays as well people are shocked by that in America we don't have paid Family and Medical Leave the only major country not to do it you know other countries you know your wife gets sick you stay home with her uh your kids get sick not a big deal you get a certain amount of Paid Family and Medical Leave cost to prescription drugs are far more affordable so what you want

to do is create what's called a social safety net that means I don't care what your income is of course you're going have healthc care is a human right of course you're going to have housing that is Affordable of course your kids are going to have great quality education from Char K University without much cost you know every country has a little bit different but there are countries in the world right now I think in Germany I think college is now tuition free as I recall uh for for obvious reasons they want to have the

best educated Workforce they can so in terms of government playing a role in a civilized Democratic Society of providing all basic needs Healthcare education housing uh retirement benefits yes that is what we've got to do now does that mean then that the government is going to run every mom and pop store in the corner of course not you want Innovation you want you know you want to go out and start a business produce a product good luck to you make money but on the other hand in terms of even making money we want you to

be able to do that come up with good products good services but do I think you should end up with a hundred billion dollar no I don't and you know what's funny I had uh I did an interview with Bill Gates who is I think the third well the guy in the country uh struggling behind uh musk and Bezos I think and he's only worth 100 plus billion but he gets by and I said to him Bill he was supposed to ask me questions I asked him the question I bill tell me something you know

you're an innovator with Microsoft and all that stuff did you know that you become a multi-billionaire and was that motivated you that one motivated you and he said no and I believe he was honesty I love doing what I love programming and I was a kid he started doing that he loved it he was motivated by it do you think that there are scientists out there who working day and night trying to develop drugs to deal with Alzheimer's or cancer that they're motivated oh boy if I come up with this drug I'm become a billionaire

so I think you know we want to reward success fine but you don't need a billion dollars we want people to get satisfaction from what they accomplish the work they're doing whether it's cleaning the street or developing a new you know drug so I think we have gone a little bit too far and you're right in talking about the book was an attack on I call you call it hyper capitalism or Uber capitalism but right now and this is not an American issue this is a global issue you know it's on an accident that musk

is over there in Saudi Arabia talking to the you know trillionaire families in the mid East these guys that were Putin and his friends you got a probably not more than you know 5 10,000 extraordinarily wealthy families who have unbelievable economic power over 7 billion people on this planet well Elon Musk is actually an interesting case because he's investing all the money back into the businesses so uh I think there is a balance to be struck and you just spoke to it which is we can still celebrate even big companies that are bringing wealth to

the world that are building cool stuff that are improving quality of life but we can question of why is it that the working class does not have a living wage in many cases and sort of trying to find that balance that's right that is the look I am no great fan of Elon mus espe especially in the role that he's playing right now in Trump's campaign but is he a brilliant guy of course he is does he work like a dog of course he does does he come up with these incredible Innovations in companies yes

he does does he Z your credit for that yeah he does but you know even in terms of encouraging Innovation I would hope that we are focusing on the important issues I would love to see great innovators figure out how we build the affordable housing that we need come up with the great drugs that we need to solve many of the terrible illnesses uh that plague people climate change for God's sakes all right do we need Innovation you know we're making good some progress in this country should we do more what kind of Technologies out

there can really cut back on on on carbon uh emissions so you know I hope we focus on some of the most important issues that impact Humanity but you know reward innovators I don't have a problem with that but I do have a problem when three people end up owning more wealth at the bottom half of American society maybe you can briefly speak to something you tweeted recently about about Donald Trump going to McDonald's and the minimum wage I believe of $75 can you just speak to that tweet look nothing new Trump didn't invent it

it's a called a photo opportunity I've done one or two in my life too so you go to a place he puts on an apron he Good Old Donald Trump just another McDonald's work up but anyhow he was aine he did his photo up that's fine KLA Harris was in North Carolina handing out food to people who were victims of the the the hurricane fine that's what politicians do but some reporter asked them they said you know Mr Trump uh are you for raising the minimum wage and that was a fair question because she got

I don't know how many but many many thousands of McDonald's workers and millions of other American workers right now are trying to get by on 9 10 11 bucks an hour federal minimum wage is seven and a quarter you have people working in McDonald's right now for sure who are working for 12 13 bucks an hour so the reporter said how you know what do you think about raising the federal minimum wage and he oh these are great workers I love McDonald's so forth he didn't answer the question well I think that in the richest

country in the history of the world if you work 40 hours a week you should not be living in poverty and that means we should have a federal minimum wage not absurdly 7 and a quarter an hour but in my view $17 an hour will that solve all the economic problems for workingclass people no it won't it'll help it'll help since running for president you've often been attacked especially from the right about being worth I believe $2 million and owning uh three houses so for my perspective the answer to that is most of your wealth

has been earned from writing books and selling those books and uh you are one of the most famous politicians in the world and uh so your wealth in the context and comparison to other people of that Fame level and other politicians is actually quite modest so what's your response usually to those attacks do I own three residences yeah I do I live here in Burlington Vermont we live in a m middle class neighborhood nice house uh guess what I'm a United States Senator and I own a home in Washington DC as do most Senators you

know you live there year after year when I first went to actually when I was in Congress for 16 years I rented all the time but I got elected okay got a six-year term you know what let's buy a house so we bought a house and guess what what like many thousands of people in the state of Vermont I have a summer camp it's a nice one on Lake Champlain that's it now how did I get the money you're right I wrote two best-selling books including this book on capitalism it was New York Times bestseller

for a while and uh also another book was a youth book and that's and I make I don't know 175,000 a year uh and that's more or less how I became the zillionaire that I am I should also mention that sometimes the word Mansion is used and I think your residences are quite modest uh at least houses in in they're not you know they're middle class hous is very nice house so when you started in politics I read you were worth $11,100 not much yeah that much that's right has uh the increase in wealth uh

changed your ability to relate to the working class oh it's a good question and obviously growing up in a workingclass family uh has been maybe the most singularly significant aspect of my politics it's you know I grew up without money in a family that lived in a rent control Department in Brooklyn New York so that has impacted me I'll tell you I don't really give a damn about money I drive a car that's 11 years old you know it's an old car and money here's my jewelry it's a solar watch nice in my wedding ring

that's about it I don't have a Rolex watch would not be interested in it but I'll tell you what is has impacted me my wife who also grew up in a working-class family will tell you the same we don't worry you raised that issue you know if we have to go to the doctor if our kids have to go to the doctor we go to the doctor I don't spay up nights worrying I used that there was a time I have to worry about how to pay my electric bill I don't worry about that anymore

so what has happened that stress that economic stress of not worrying about a financial disaster that's gone and that is enormous I you know maybe as much more than any other member of the Senate work hard not only for but with workingclass people I'm chairman of the committee deals with labor issues we have been involved probably in dozens of strikes all over this country I've been on picket lines so you know I do my best it's a very easy trap to fall into you can get separate separated from ordinary people and their struggles not hard

to do uh I try as hard as I can not to do that so sometimes people say can money buy happiness I think I agree with you that that worry sort of being able to fill up your car and not worry about how much it's going to cost or be able to get food for dinner and not worry uh about how much it's going to cost uh or even uh you know I've been very I've been poor most of my life and I've been very fortunate recently to have enough wealth to not worry about health

care to have insurance and be able to afford an emergency room visit and that worry is just such a giant lift off your shoulders Le I think you said it very well I remember even to and I saw this change in myself when I used to go and I do the grocery shop my wife does a lot of the cooking I do the grocery shop I used to look at the prices of everything I I I do that less now you I say what the hell so what it cost 50 cents more for this can

of stuff so what uh but that's a luxury you have when you don't have to worry about that and I don't have to worry about it but your point is again to me I don't like big fancy cars or big fancy homes don't go on my wife will tell you we've not been on a real vacation for God knows how long cuz I I work pretty hard but the major thing about having money which is enormously but is just what you said uh I don't have to worry if somebody in my family gets sick uh

I don't have to worry about it I don't have to worry about putting food on the table or paying the mortgage so that's that's what money has done okay uh let me ask you about uh the future of the democratic party so one of the biggest impacts you've had is you've been the fuel the Catalyst for the increase of the progressive caucus the Progressive Movement within the Democratic party um do you think that is the future the the the progressives even uh Democratic Socialist leaders will take over the party that is the most important question

regarding to my mind American politics one of the successes that we've had and I'm proud to have played a role in this is that if you go to the House of Representatives right now you will see almost a 100 members of the progressive caucus LED very well by a woman from Washington Prima jaul does a great job you know that's people like Alexandra AIA Cortez uh andan Omar and many others many of them are young often women people of color and many of them come from workingclass backgrounds so what we have been able to do

in recent years elect a number of strong progressives who represent Working Families very very effectively the struggle in the Democratic party is between the corporate wing and the progressive wing and you know the corporate Wing takes a whole lot of money sees its salvation in getting a whole lot of money uh from wealthy individuals uh and you know large corporations and is not very vigorous in my view uh in representing the needs of workingclass people if they were we would have healthc care for all we would have a minimum wage that was a living wage

we would not have a housing crisis we would not have a tax system in which billionaires pay an effective tax rate that is lower than a truck driver or a nurse so I think one of the reasons that Trump has had political success is he it's not so much his ideas most working-class people don't think we should give tax breaks to billionaires or worry about the size of you know Arnold Palmer's gentia uh but they are angry people are angry and uh the Democrats have not responded effectively to that anger so the struggle that we

are waging right now is the future of the democratic party will it be a party of the working class and represent working class issues with you a black or white or Latino or Asian or whatever you may be or will it be a corporately dominated party that's the struggle we're in right now did you consider running in 2024 from my perspective I would have loved it if you ran I think you would have had a great chance of winning uh not just the primary but the uh the presidency I gave about 5 minutes thought to

it uh and the reason was we have a slogan in the Progressive Movement it's not about me it's about us and you know to have taken on Biden who in my view on domestic issues has been quite strong would have really split the Democratic party and and laid the groundwork for an easy Trump Victory and that I did not want to see so uh sometimes in life and I know that a lot of you know younger people don't don't agree with me but you know you got to make choices which are painful uh so I

strongly supported Biden because I liked I liked his domestic record he's done some good things against a lot of opposition uh and I'm supporting KET right now uh but I'm doing my best to see that a dangerous guy like Donald Trump does not become president and the hope for you is that there will be future candidates that are populist that are progressive yeah absolutely let me ask you about a she's become one of the most influential voices for the progressive cause in the United States you do had a great conversation on your podcast and in

general you work together so what's to you is most impressive about her I really like Alexandria a whole lot um she is a young woman who comes from a working class background uh she helped her mother clean houses uh she was a bartender uh in the Bronx New York uh and I'm very proud that my campaign for president inspired her to run and she ran on a progressive working class program and she took on one of the more powerful guys a guy named Joe Crowley who was pretty high up in the Democratic party and she

knocked on doors she had no money she did a very strong Grassroots effort and I appreciate that so that's number one I like what she stands for she's incredibly smart and she has that certain Charisma that you know maybe you're born with it maybe developed it I don't know she a couple years ago she she came up here to Vermont to SP some time she and her her uh partner Riley came up and um and I we were out in the street and people came saw her and they said oh congresswoman on and she just

smiled and she had an approach to people which was beautiful I mean it wasn't phony it was real but to be a politician you got to know a you know you could be a great intellectual but you can't relate to people she relates well to people and uh so I I think both from a personality perspective from an intellect perspective from an ideological perspective she helped create the green New Deal concept the need to create jobs as we transform our Energy System away from fossil fuel strong advocate for Medicare for all workers right so I'm

a big fan of Alexandria what do you think is the most powerful enduring impact you've had on American politics looking back you've been in it for quite a bit well you know I don't know that I can give you a singular answer you know I was mayor of the city and proud of what we accomplished here proud of my accomplishments as a US senator you know when covid was devastating this country and we had a massive economic downturn as chairman of the budget committee I helped write the American Rescue plan which put a lot of

money into people's pockets we cut childhood poverty by 40% by providing a child tax credit we kept hospitals going we kept colleges going kept people from getting evicted help get Public Health out there people getting the vaccines you know I'm proud of that but at the end of the day I think what I have shown is that the ideas this gets back to the early part of this conversation the ideas that I am talking about are ideas that are widely supported you know so when you know Donald Trump says oh Bernie Sanders is a far-left

you know it's like I'm some kind of extremist coming up with ideas that nobody supports everything that I talk about raising the minimum wage health care for all a tax system which demands the billionaires pay their fair share those are all popular ideas but people didn't know you got to run for president and have 20,000 people come out to your rallies and win 23 States they H well maybe those eyes are not ideas are not so crazy after all and we got to entertain them the establishment doesn't like that they really don't they want to

tell you and this is their main This Is How They succeed what they say Lex is the world is the way it is it always will be this way we got the wealth we got the power and don't think of anything else this is this is the way it is you you have no power give up that they don't say it quite that way but that's really what the intent is and what we showed is guess what you know running a a a an outsider campaign we took on the Democratic establishment we came close to

winning it and we did win 23 States and the idea is that we're talking about all the ideas that workingclass people young people believe in yeah you showed that it's possible to win and that's an idea that will resonate for decades to and out of that came dozens of candidates now in the House of Representatives people on city council people on State Legislature who did win so we mentioned about the worry of getting sick the worry of life that many people in the working class are suffering from but there's also the worry uh that we

all experience of the finiteness of Life do you Ponder your own IM mortality Are You Afraid Of It Well when you're 83 it does come across all right yeah of course I do and uh are you afraid of it no I'm not afraid of death what I am afraid of I think is infirmity I have been knock on wood this is wood I think uh reasonably hey with an exception I had a heart attack 5 years ago and what blew me away was that my body failed me for the very first time in my life

that was stunning to me that you know suddenly I was in a hospital bed uh you know I have a great deal of compassion for people as we speak who are in nursing homes having a hard time walking maybe your mental agility is slipping a little bit that's tough that's that's what worries me you know we are all going to die and you know that's that so I'm not afraid of that but that aspect of getting older and you that does concern me that said your mind is as sharp as any politician that uh uh

I've ever heard and also just off mic I should say that just the warmth that you radiate and I deeply deeply appreciate that just as a human being so you still got it after all that after all those speeches after all those uh houses after all of it you there's still the the humility um and just the sharpness the wit is all there so Bernie um yeah like I said I wish you would have ran this year but uh I also wish that there's future candidates and there will be Lex I absolutely do and I

think you know he asked about my legacy and the idea that they're all wonderful really really wonderful people uh who are now got involved in the political process that are fighting for justice that's a great legacy what gives you hope about the future of this country about the future of the world you know sometimes one can become very cynical you look at the terrible Wars that are going on right now you look at the divisiveness in this country the ugliness the poverty you look at climate change you know you get depressed from all that but

I am lucky in this sense and that I've had the opportunity people often what's what inspires you how do you keep going and I remember actually was in California where it really crystallized me I was had a rally in the agricultural area of California and we did a rally it was sunset thousands of people were out and you looked around the crowd and there were young people black and white and Latino and Asian-American huge cross-section of older people and they all wanted to make America a very much better country and it really moved I mean

I see that time and time when I've just been on the campaign Trail and you see great people really beautiful people who not interested in becoming billionaire as they want to improve life for other people in this country so you know that I am grateful that I you know you know it sounds like a platitude you know it's what every politician says oh blah blah blah blah but when you go out around the country you know you go to Native American reservations and you go to factories and everything and you see so many wonderful people

you know I have been able to see things that many others have not been to every state in the country and uh that inspires me I share there optimism I share your optimism Bernie I've been a fan for a long time it's a great honor to speak to you today thank you so much well thank you very much for what you're doing let me just say a word about you're doing okay to return the the compliments here you know I think uh there is a growing dissatisfaction with corporate media and not because it's fake news

or the reporters lie all the time that's nonsense they don't but I think people want to hear folks really talk about in a in a calm manner about some of the very important issues which are not discussed uh in corporate media and I think that's what you and some others are doing so I thank you very much it's a very important service to the country and thank you from a mayor perspective for creating a wonderful town and I look forward to looking at the at the fall leaves walking around quite create the leaves it did

create some other things okay thank you so much Bernie thank you Le thanks for listening to this conversation with Bernie Sanders to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from Aristotle the real difference between democracy and oligarchy is poverty and wealth wherever men rule by reason of their wealth whether they be few or many that is an oligarchy and where the poor rule that is democracy thank you for listening and hope to see you next time