Joe Rogan Experience #2293 - Chris Williamson

joe Rogan podcast check it out the Joe Rogan Experience train by day joe Rogan podcast by night all day and I took the glasses off i was hoping you going to keep them on you want me to keep them on you can pull them off some dudes can't pull off douchy glasses you think these are douchy a little bit if I didn't know you but I know you they're not douchy at all so you can wear cool glasses well these are requests by you so I can wear what I want you've been wearing them a

lot i like them yeah yeah I do they kind of It's like having a Instagram filter for the entire world so everything feels It's a little rosy i had I had a pair of rosecolored glasses before and I got it i was like "Oh I get it it is better this way." It's nicer yeah yeah it's like a full uh Dude I got I I need to show you this so okay what is this have a little open of that so you'll remember that I sent you a photo on iMessage a couple of months ago

of a friend of mine who was in Antarctica yeah and he flew a Comedy Mothership lighter out to Antarctica i've been reliably told that that lighter was used to smoke weed in Antarctica yeah and it's touched it was dropped a number of times so it's touched ancient perafrost [ __ ] yeah uh what kind of laws do they have in Antarctica i don't know apparently very liberal laws [ __ ] knows i don't know i don't there have they established laws they were 400 miles in whoa uh so this was part of the final experiment

which was this attempt to try and disprove flat earth oh he went as a part of that did he bring flatearthers is that the deal so four flatearthers four globies globes get flown to Antarctica it's $35,000 per person this guy called Will Duffy put the project together flew everybody down there did he pay for each person yep yep wow uh I think maybe a couple of people chose to go self-funded but they were trying to get the open offer to all of the biggest flat earth influencers commentators on the planet i don't know what to

call how many went four of each so four roundies four flatties and uh don't you want to see their search histories uh maybe the FBI do i don't know the the flat people i want to see so uh they do this uh in the middle of our winter their summer they observe the sun above the horizon for 24 hours so there's no explanation apparently with most of the models of flat Earth about how the sun could stay above the horizon for 24 hours so they flew down they had drones flying in the air they had

um 24-hour 360 cameras they had live stream of iPhones all of this stuff and then they had the people that were on the ground and the guys that were there observed the sun did the flatearthers switch stances so three three did and one didn't this is just a drone i was just showing you footage oh this is drone footage yeah so the the final experiment so those are apparently mountain tops but they're submerged it's just all ice that is so [ __ ] hardcore cuz you know there's a bunch of things up there that look

like pyramids and what it really is is just an unusual peak of an enormous mountain have you seen the Antarctic pyramids yeah you got to go all in on that okay [ __ ] We have hard launched hard launched this episode people that believe wild [ __ ] about Antarctica so you know about the direct energy weapon theory right yes I did see that on Shawn Ryan's show yes I did as well i was like that guy's [ __ ] really interesting yeah it's like he sounds really interesting but if I want to sit him

next to Eric Weinstein you know what I'm saying like is any is anything this guy's saying make any sense because I've I've done that before with Eric with one guy who was a fraudster i sent him a video and I said "Tell me if this is gobbly [ __ ] or if this is like real physics." Eric to stress test some guy's ideas of course he loves it he lo he loves any sort of intellectual stimulation and especially if it's like mathematics or physics or something where it's his wheelhouse and you know he's great because

you can someone can sound really good to me you know they they can start quoting thermal dynamics finessing you through whatever their problem is like like chiropractors do you know chiropractors use all these crazy weird terms for musculature and and different insertion points is to let you know that they have a comprehensive understanding of the body that's far beyond yours Chris and this is the same thing like a lot of fraudsters do they'll use enormous language and very verbose you know phrases and it's like they're just trying to get you to think that they're smarter

than they are yeah i think people use sort of complex language and fluency as a proxy for truthfulness and insight yes and especially when if you're dealing with a truly brilliant person they can't that's what a pyramid [ __ ] oh this is just on Google Maps yeah Jamie you've just gone to Google Maps yeah I didn't want to go to any I went to the source any kooky websites but it does look like a pyramid well it also looks like all three yeah yeah that's crazy but the re the reality is that's probably under

a couple miles of ice yeah so this uh final experiment thing it sent the world into a spiral there's this dude Jarn Campanella who was one of the the biggest influencers and he's said I saw the sun above the horizon I think the earth round and he's immediately been the flat earth society's just gone into a head spin they're saying they didn't really go to Antarctica they went to the sphere in Vegas was one of the accusations they did it at the sphere in Vegas and they were tracking it around um the sphere's not that

big kids yeah well it's not that big I've been there's seats everywhere you would know you're there i don't know i don't know they had a bad time um but yeah it's it's that's been pretty wild talking of pyramids dude this new pyramid [ __ ] that's just come out oh this is insane yeah I was going to send this to you as well Jamie i'll send you one of the most comprehensive breakdowns of it on X because it's quite stunning so apparently through the use of LAR they have discovered that there are enormous structures

underneath the Great Pyramid that go kilometers deep into the earth with coils so enormous pillars and then these coils they don't understand what it is because they're all looking they're just looking at LAR images but whatever this is is a uniform structure there's several pillars and uh all of this is like very very very weird yeah 600 m descending down those cylinders and then there's more stuff below it and then there's additional structures inside of it yeah that was crazy it's really crazy there's a guy Jay Anderson and he did uh a breakdown of it

maybe this would be good we could play this um it makes a little more sense when someone's explaining it to you well yeah i mean we need somebody that's an expert here not me and you zawi Hawas by the way has said it's nonsense so I don't know already yes according to Graham Hancock this is the wonderful thing about having Graham i texted Graeme yesterday i was like "Yeah what what's going on with this?" Yeah so click on that and go full screen please this episode is brought to you by BetterHelp there are times in

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it into your schedule with just a few clicks you can start a session your well-being is worth it for a limited time visit betterhelp.com/jre to get 90% off your first week that's betterhelp hp.com/jre how significant of a discovery this is [Music] i love the music and geometry so you know it's real got to appreciate the dramatic intro project Unity what has just been announced in relation to the pyramids at the Giza Plateau and the plateau itself is so incredible so awe inspiring and narrative shattering that I have been sitting here for the last hour trying

to wrap my head around the implications of what we were just told so this is pretty much breaking news because the new findings were announced on the 16th of March at a press conference held by the team who were studying the Great Pyramid of Giza with a non-invasive technology that was first developed by uh Filippo Beyond and Curado Malanga called synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography [ __ ] that's a used to explore the entire of the Great Pyramid of Giza and this method leverages the analysis of micro movements typically generated by background seismic activity to

achieve a highresolution full 3D tomographic imagery of the pyramid's interior and subsurface components the recent findings from deploying this technology are nothing short of mindblowing because what's been discovered is that there are huge structures coming down from the base of the pyramid deep into the bedrock in fact over 600 m deep which then connects to structures that extend up to 2 km below the surface of the ground 2 km massive internal structures connected to the base of the pyramid and extending deep deep down this is what we know so far what What does your friend

think about it which friend the one that said it's [ __ ] oh it's not my friend that's Zawi Hawas okay zi Hawas is the head of antiquities in in Egypt he's like the head guy that talks to the archaeologists and gives the official narrative in the pro in the past he's been extremely hostile to Graham Hancock but Graham Hancock and him and have have now become friends oh yes coordinating graham is a lovely guy people that like are enemies with him just need to get to know him and hang out with him he's a

genuine real human being who's trying to find the truth he's He doesn't have fake narratives and and he's so sensitive too like he's so upset like when when people smeared him like the Atlantis thing they were trying to say it's a white supremacist idea to look for Atlantis he's like "What are you talking about?" Like "What are you talking about?" Like we had this guy Flint Dibble on who in an article and he was talking about Graham and he's connecting Graham to white supremacy and all all this crazy [ __ ] because of the Atlantis

theory it's the way they dismiss at pedestalizes white heritage because some people in the past some people in the past who have theorized about Atlantis had white supremacist ideas but also most people didn't like Plato didn't like the people that talked about this place it's in subsaharan Africa I mean it's like the least white supremacist discovery of all time as are the pyramids this is Africa it's the least white supremacist notion of all time that this incredibly advanced ancient civilization had reached some sort of proficiency that's above and beyond what we attribute to them i

think Graham is right and I think there's a lot of other people that are right too that are chasing this down and um Christopher Dunn uh had long ago theorized and wrote a book that he believes that the Great Pyramid of Giza is a gigantic power plant he thinks it generates power and he has an a very like an like a working theory of why it's built the way it's built that totally coincides with the ability to produce hydrogen the ability to utilize the the rays of space and and and try to find some way

to generate electricity through this yeah it's the association of other people that we don't like talked about this thing therefore anybody else that talks about this thing is immediately attached to them just seems like a very lazy way to sort of smear people uh it's it's a it's lazy thinking it is it's gross it's it's beyond lazy it's not lazy it's really cheap it's like they're cheap insults and it's also from academia which is so disappointing you know i mean academia has been so captured by this mind virus of leftism that it's just it's so

bizarre to watch the brightest minds and the people that we lean on for rational reasonable thinking and an objective understanding of the world we we lean on the experts and when they're calling someone a white supremacist for talking about an advanced society that lived in Africa there's a lot of ways that you can put your foot in it there's this woman Corey Clark who sent a survey to every psychology professor in the US and asked them questions like what is more important uh the truth or ensuring that uh equity is is promoted and a lot

of professors basically said I self censor i would prioritize making people feel good over necessarily telling them the truth there are certain uh opinions that people should be reported for there are certain uh topics that basically shouldn't be discussed the the usual suspects stuff like behavioral genetics so heritability evolutionary psychology as in anything that kind of relates to sex differences and uh yeah it really is retarding the progress of every and you think well trickling down from this what sort of educated society you're going to have in future that's not going to be particularly good

well I think it's going to encourage independent education i think you're going to encourage people like uh University of Austin which is uh they're aiming to do just that and to kind of bypass all this nonsense and just teach people reality um and I also think that it's most likely I mean I don't even want to say most likely it's most certainly influenced by other countries that want to degrade our ability to develop meaningful minds that come out of universities like intelligent useful people distract them with social justice not just distract them but destroy society

with them it's Yuri Bzmanov's prediction from 1984 it's like you could pass that off as a ridiculous conspiracy theory I if if it wasn't totally accurate it's like it's amazing how people don't want to believe that maybe um there's been subversion and that maybe our universities have been overrun for years with both funding which we know is true particularly from China china funds a lot of American universities they do they give a lot of grants they spent a lot of money and this was the this was a part of the whole thing with George W

or not George W excuse me um with Joe Biden's bizarre job that he had where he was a professor that he never showed up for classes and he was teaching and he he got a mob teaching job he he got a mob no-show job teaching as a professor yeah as a professor and I think he got a million dollars a year to just do nothing do you know that uh question that people ask about I know how much he got i don't want to get sued by man um uh he doesn't know what's going on

he doesn't know what's going on well he might auto sign the legal papers um there's that question about there's two options about um life in the universe that either we're alone or that we're not and both are equally terrifying right right i feel like it's the same when it comes to western anti-westernism and you say either we're doing it to ourselves or we're not right and both are equally terrifying you know you're being puppeted by this nefarious foreign power or you're just turning around and kicking the ball into the your own goal over and over

again well I think people will turn around and kick the ball into their own goal but I also think they're being helped i think there's a substantial amount of this that just works automatically it it pres upon really weak minds and particularly bullies and mean people who want to find other people that they can hate to justify like whatever virtue they believe that they have above those people and and they'll use it to hate and uh John Cles made a great video about this why extremism is so interesting it's on my Instagram i uh I

reposted it the other day someone posted it we'll give them credit for it but it's a great clip from John Cleas from 30 years ago from 30 years ago and it in preocial media there is no social media at this time and he essentially nails what's going on with both the right-wing extremists and the left-wing extremists it's the same thing they're the same people they're finding a thing click click this we've heard a lot about extremism recently a nastier harsher atmosphere everywhere more abuse and bother boy behavior less friendliness and tolerance and respect for opponents

all right but what we never hear about extremism is its advantages well the biggest advantage of extremism is that it makes you feel good because it provides you with enemies let me explain the great thing about having enemies is that you can pretend that all the badness in the whole world is in your enemies and all the goodness in the whole world is in you attractive isn't it so if you have a lot of anger and resentment in you anyway and you therefore enjoy abusing people then you can pretend that you're only doing it because

these enemies of yours are such very bad persons and that if it wasn't for them you'd actually be good-natured and courteous and rational all the time so if you want to feel good become an extremist okay now you have a choice if you join the hard left they'll give you their list of authorized enemies almost all kinds of authority especially the police the city Americans judges multinational corporations public schools friers newspaper owners fox hunters generals class traers and of course moderates or if you'd rather be an extremist on the hard right I bet the moderates

are in their get a loveliness of enemies only they're different ones noisy minority groups unions Russia weirdos demonstrators welfare sponges medals clergy peace the BBC strikers social workers communists and of course moderates and upstart actors now once you're armed with one of these super lists of enemies you can be as nasty as you like and yet feel your behaviors morally justified so you can strut around abusing people and telling them you could eat them for breakfast and still think of yourself as a champion of the truth a a fighter for the greater good and not

the rather sad paranoid skitsoid that you really are seriously brilliant brilliant so good brilliant yeah i remember preocial media but the dynamic is still the same right it's just amplified now so much so that it's a part of everyone's life so many people's morality stands on the shoulders of somebody that's fallen behind right it's look at how much look at how bad that person is don't you don't need to look at me and I think that if people start pointing at out groups and they bind their group together over the mutual hatred of an out

group that's usually an indication I'm like I should look a little bit closer at you like it might be a good example lizo didn't think I was going to go there lizo um talking about how she was in support of these bigger girls and she was going to help their careers and give them a platform presumably a structurally reinforced platform um meanwhile behind the scenes she's body shaming them she's starving them she's not letting them have water apart from when she makes them eat bananas out of the vaginas of Amsterdam strippers douglas Murray said that

she she thought that she could outsource eating fruit to somebody else um and meanwhile you think she's portraying nicy nicy out front what's happening behind the scenes i remember this this was pre um uh Yeah please uh this was pre Thank you uh pre-Trump Elon uh really pre-Trump Elon and um he was saying thank you very much and uh he was saying "What I care about is doing good not the appearance of it." Yes and he's discussing performative empathy in this way this sort of sense that what's most important is to protect people's feelings and

I think that this really is a point it doesn't matter whether you're on left or right this is a point that you should care about because you want people to have some sense of transparency legitimacy they want to be telling the truth you want to trust that what someone is saying to you is actually what they believe yes and he said "What I care about is doing good not the appearance of it there are lots of people who are doing evil while proclaiming that they're doing good." And you know that's the same that you're talking

about there with John Cle you're saying these people's morality will stand on the shoulders of others who have fallen behind it's the same reason why if somebody's in the middle of a scandal look at who comes out and twists the knife a lot do you go "Huh I wonder what's in your It's the classic congressman that's got the anti-gay bill." Oh yeah who's just gay as [ __ ] yeah yeah glory holes and you know check his hard drive that's the person whose hard drive yeah so um yeah I it's it's just such an obvious

warning sign to me that what's happening inside of someone is probably not that good yeah i mean if you're looking to destroy someone particularly like you're you're attacking someone online particularly almost all of those people are deeply broken there's there's always some creepiness that lurks behind the scenes that you're trying to cover up for with your actions almost always you're trying to put the light on this person the you're going to put the eye of Sauron on this person to keep it off yourself i've seen that a lot of you know self-proclaimed male feminists that

sneaky [ __ ] yeah that I know to be creeps you know and I'm like "Ew." And I'll see them attacking some other guy and I'm like "Oh god." I don't dive in but I want to sometimes sometimes I want to just burn the boats and pull the [ __ ] pins on the grenades you know what I don't like about that sort of level of aggressive criticism i think I'm uh you could describe me as a criticism hyperresponder i'm someone for whom it it probably impacts me more than it should do certainly more than

it should do for someone who gets as the level of attention that I've managed to get myself to now right um and what I don't like about it is it causes people like me to be way less confident in their own positions because you think "Oh well most people if if it was me I would only give feedback if I was really certain and if I had this person's best interests at heart and if I wanted them to do better and if I actually knew what I was talking about then I would tell this person

what I think about them and what I think about what they're saying." Right and if you apply that rubric to everybody else that gives you criticism you give uh undue unfair expertise and uh legitimacy to people who don't have your best interests at heart they don't understand what you're trying to do they don't care about you they don't get it and uh it causes a lot of people basically I think that criticism killed more dreams than a lack of competence ever did because people are just I'm worried about pushing these boundaries too much this person

all of my friends tell me the truth why isn't this person on the internet uh there's this idea from Ethan Cross called criticism capture so you'll have heard of audience capture right where a creator starts feeding red meat to the audience it becomes very predictable criticism capture basically says it's not the compliments but the criticisms that are more warping that over time what you end up doing is changing the way that you speak you become uh flame sword flaming sword wielding card carrying member that's as aggressive as possible to push back against it or you

go the other way and you begin to caveat very aggressively you start to dampen down all of your opinions so that nobody can take offense to them you have these unnecessarily long uh sort of diet tribes this sort of weird land acknowledgement well we must remember that women are struggling with the thing and we have to the memories but now we've got that out of the way let's talk about men's problems or whatever it might be and uh yeah I think I I just wish that the internet was a little bit more positive some as

opposed to negative some and I understand that people bind together over mutual hatreds of out groups like the oldest story in human history is that group of people are different to us let's get them the oldest story in history i mean it's uh it's tribal genetics it's like baked into our DNA literally and it can be manipulated and when people are doing it and they're doing it w with a very obvious distortion of your actual position just to label you as the worst possible least charitable version of you that could ever be remotely considered do

you see that all the time where people are just trying to distort a narrative you're seeing that right now with Elon right you're you're seeing people justify violence and extreme vandalism and you're seeing people cheer it on and it's very strange there was a a thing on the Daily Show where the host was talking about the attacks on Tesla and people keying people's and the audience starts clapping and cheering it's so strange it's so [ __ ] strange and it's also just shows you how positions just completely flip-flop like the Tesla used to be the

car that you drove to let everybody know that you were environmentally conscious and you were a good leftist it's a good question do we care about the environment or not because those fumes that are being kicked out of that that's not good a thousand jet airplanes flying overhead for a year yeah yeah yeah yeah it's It's wild you're lighting batteries on fire they're so toxic lithium and all sorts of [ __ ] getting pissed into the environment oh it's all going to come down and rain it's going to pollute the water the fish are going

to be polluted you're not going to be able to eat them but we're doing good this is for a righteous cause yeah and it's all funded too it's funded by NOS's that's where it gets really crazy the Tesla fires are funded by NOS's yeah people are uncovering exactly what's going on and this is where um this is where it gets fascinating because all the stuff has operated pretty much with impunity in the past before Doge before uh Elon and his uh crew of hyperspectrum psychopaths started [ __ ] Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles super wizards started

diving into all this data um and this is something that Ted Cruz talked about he said "We had always known that there was these problems but until Elon came along with these algorithms we couldn't expose them we didn't understand what was going on and now they've used AI to create this understanding of the net of NOS's that is all funded by US aid and by similar type programs where you know you kind of have these open-ended checks that get written to other side other side that's the top yeah right there how often you smoke cigars

fella couple of times well I [ __ ] turned this around the wrong way all right no worries keep going but this is this is the essentially the way Mike Benz describes it he's the very best at it i don't know if you ever seen his his breakdowns of uh US aid i love his episodes on here incredible so interesting they're so interesting cuz you realize like this has been going on forever and ever and ever and this is this is the arm of the government that is about regime change a lot of the money

gets funneled into these other countries and it's under the guise of you know air quotes aid but it's not aid it's agency for international development and it's it's all about influence and power all throughout the world and and also at home and one of the things that it does at home is they organize these protests they organize protests different NOS's do all funded by the government all funded by taxpayer money in this weird way and when they do it they pay people to show up at these places uh I've got pamphlets that people have given

me that they've taken from these these locations or gotten from email lists where is that purposefully no digital record i I think probably but I don't think they care i mean I think as long as they're saying they're going to pay you to protest I think that's legal i think it's legal to pay someone to protest so they're paying people $1,000 and they're giving them food and snacks and you can get a lot of people to just show up for a thousand bucks and then some of them are going to get a little vandally some

of them bring enough people together and they get vandally how crazy is it that the left are the ones who are painting swastikas on cars just understand how crazy positions can flip and flop the left is upset that we're not continuing an endless war in Ukraine the left is upset that this guy is uncovering fraud and waste and so in order to stop that you must light cars on fire and put swastikas on them because he's a Nazi cuz he said "My heart goes out to you." Even though there's countless videos of AOC doing that

gesture Tim Walsh doing that gesture enthusiastically many many people i do think if you're in that position if you've got this heritage coming in just be careful with where you put your hands do you know what I mean like just [ __ ] think about where you put your hands he's you know he's on the spectrum man he's not normal you seen that video comparing him and Trump's son there's two different types of autism have you seen this no I haven't oh my god it's so good i think it's at the is it the inauguration

and uh they're both stood next to each other and Elon's sort of fist pumping and loving it and uh Trump's son's just like staring off apparently Trump's son went up to Biden at the inauguration and said it's on now what is this a [ __ ] UFC fight i mean that's literally apparently lip readers have like read what he said when he went up to cuz there's a moment where he goes up to Biden and Biden looks confused and he doesn't smile is like but he walks up to it's on now well they need to

do you know how football coaches have got they put the the play thing over the front of their mouth like this and they talk into it that's how it needs to be done now for politics with lip readers everywhere that kid knew there was lip readers i don't think he gave a [ __ ] i think they tried to put his dad in jail and he wants to kill that guy that's what I think he's like "Fuck you." Cuz imagine your dad's getting that close to put in jail for [ __ ] for the rest

of his life like if he got put in jail for 25 to life he's dead he's dead he dies in jail he's going to get no food he's going to be no nutrition no sunlight depression intense [ __ ] anxiety you're in jail you're dead he's 80 years old he's not going to last to 105 in jail there was a video from Forbes recently that got a million plays in a day talking about Trump getting like bopped on the nose by a boomer yeah by a little boomer he just did a little boop on the

nose i I have to say I have such [ __ ] news politics fatigue already we're what two months into the the sort of presidency and it is the velocity of [ __ ] if you can get a million plays in a day because Trump got bopped on the nose by a [ __ ] boom mic it just the the appetite is it seems endless for it it just feels it's very it's exhausting i'm kind of having to check out and I know that people say "Oh well it's a luxurious position you don't need to

pay attention to politics it's a luxurious position for you to be in people at the bottom they do need to pay pay attention to politics." It's an interesting stat because actually the most educated wealthiest people are the ones that spend the most time consuming news and talking about politics the people at the bottom rung of the ladder that don't so that's not true i'm just [ __ ] exhausted i'm so You're allowed to be exhausted it's ridicul wrote an article about how one of the names of one of our podcast guests who's a good friend

of mine Michael Costa his name was misspelled accidentally on the feed on the feed your on Newsweek is that you Jamie it wasn't even misspelled i don't know it was misc capitalized it's a particular letter had a capitalization too i don't The defense rests its case here it wasn't even misspelled right it was M capital I Michael Costa like me ka or something okay a headline it's a a [ __ ] article in Newsweek you ever think that your career would result in you having typos for a headline Jamie i can't i don't even know

which ones we've missed i'm sure there's been other ones that's just the first one 100% we happens it happens people make mistakes you're typing things in yeah but the fact that it's an article that we're being called out for a typo must be that's an art but it's just anything for clicks man week for news when it comes to college basketball and March Mania one thing is for sure nothing's for sure upsets buzzer beers Cinderella's advancing top seeds going home early it's all going to happen bet the unexpected every upset every day with DraftKings Sportsbook

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available for problem gambling call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org please play responsibly on behalf of Bootill Casino and Resort in Kansas 21 and over agent eligibility varies by jurisdiction void in Ontario new customers only bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources see dkg.co/audio think for clicks that was something that I noticed a trend that I've noticed over the last couple of years um legacy media is really struggling to garner attention itself it seems like fewer and fewer people are listening to it we saw that over the last election you

know it seems to me like the best way that legacy media can gain traffic is to talk about independent media how many times are we seeing headlines about Andrew Hubman or about the rightwing manosphere pipeline and how it's getting people to do this or the other side like why is there not a Joe Rogan of the left like you know whatever the whatever the headline is more and more the way that legacy media is able to achieve traffic is only in reference to independent media yes so then as opposed to us being downstream from them

they're now downstream from us yeah and anything masculine is right-wing anything you cannot be masculine like you cannot be interested in physical fitness anything it's a pipeline to being rightwing yes uh you can't like fast cars nope you're you're not allowed to You're not even allowed to like Teslas anymore which are the fastest cars yeah you're a misogynist you're probably racist maybe a Nazi i'm gonna put a swastig on your car just to let everybody know it's there was a really [ __ ] stupid graph that someone put up of how right-wing uh social media

and new media people That was the media matters study yeah this is interesting i was at the top of the list i was at the top of the list and I was like I feel like the way Caitlyn Jenner must have felt like when she won women of the year like it's so quick I got to the top of the list i'm not even rightwing just cuz I support Trump i supported him over the rest of the [ __ ] nonsense that was going on when you're trying to push through someone without even a primary

there it is this is it i'm number one [ __ ] it's kind of funny like they're putting Theo Vaughn in there lex Freedman yeah that's Lex Freriedman that's hilarious to put him in there who else they have in there that's ridiculous pierce Morgan well Pierce Morgan is kind of light right leaning I think but but I think he's pretty reasonable i think he's far more of a centrist kill Tony 3.5 i still don't understand how that's a political show it's not but Tony you know was at the um White House or the um Flagrant

2.8 yeah flagrant is not a right-wing show you [ __ ] idiots they have a bunch of red dots too with no names on them which is And then blue you're allowed to shut up Jamie stop being names i managed to thread I managed to thread the needle of avoiding this you're going to get on there now they're going to put you on now Jamie those red ones are real just shut up no I'm just I don't know no they're real they're all real there's a couple blue ones that are real too the name i

don't know [ __ ] the name they're too little to give too small no one cares no one gets It's hilarious it's very funny what what do you think of the or if you got a proposed reason for why this is it just a a judgment criteria that they're judging shows that aren't right-wing as rightwing or is it genuinely that for some reason the left is struggling to make progress in independent media well they're struggling to make progress in independent media for sure they're trying to figure out why they're trying to figure out why these

what they are calling right-wing i think if you looked at all my positions I think way more of them are leftwing than rightwing what are the leftwing positions that you still hold well the big one is having some sort of a social safety net i was on welfare when I was a kid my family was on food stamps we were [ __ ] poor as [ __ ] and I remember that helping us a lot we had food where I don't know what we would be doing if we did i mean we we were in

a bad place and there's social safety nets for people my my family got out of that and my stepfather and my mother wind up doing well they did they did really great and they they got out of debt and bought a house and great job and the whole deal but when I was a little boy we were [ __ ] and I think social safety nets are very important for people it's very it's very important for society if you care about people you care about the whole society you don't want people starving when there's ways

to develop government programs to make sure people have food and I think that's this idea of pull them up by their bootstraps is horseshit some people don't have boots they don't have straps they don't have nothing they're they're [ __ ] they're [ __ ] from the moment they were born and they were born into a bad family environment in a bad neighborhood and crime and gangs and drugs and it's not even playing field where are you at with healthcare i think healthcare 100% should be socially funded um I think that Medicare and Medicaid having

programs where people who are hurt can get an operation and it's not going to bankrupt them for the the rest of their life is another thing that I think society should be it should be a part of our agreement to take care of each other as a community that we chip in money for what people would think of as socialist positions and I always bring up the fire department because the fire department is one of the best examples that everybody sort of agrees it's a socialist sort of thing you give your tax dollars the tax

dollar supports the fire department the fire department fairly puts out fires for everybody they don't not put out your fire they don't have any money it's not like they don't the fires don't such a good example but when you compare that to the way that medical access is done at least in this country but I also believe in competition i've said this before I'll say it again i want my doctor to be a bad [ __ ] who drives a Mercedes i want my doctor to like be really good i want him to be an

artist you know i want to go to the guy who fixes the Lakers knees you know that's the guy you want you want that guy who has a nice watch and he lives in a nice house and he kicks ass and he knows how to [ __ ] fix people really well he's the best at it and you go to him and you get an operation and you're [ __ ] golden that's what you want when you you want competition because competition inspires excellence you know being rewarded for your hard work is a a giant

incentive for people to get amazing at things and you need that you need that too but there's also a lot of very good doctors who would be very happy to do something that helps the overall greater good of the community just like you have really good criminal defense attorneys that are you know assigned to you if you're uh you know if you're getting unjustly tried and you want a really good one that can help you you know there's there's stateappointed attorneys that are just good people that want to help people you know Bill Murray was

talking about his daughter his daughter does that there's you know there's room for that with the amount of money that we spend on so many things that we all agree are [ __ ] and maybe some of that could be freed up with some of this US aid money that they're pulling i mean there's nothing wrong with giving people health care like if you know anybody that's been injured and was bankrupt because they didn't have insurance and then they had to get some crazy operation and now they have this enormous debt and they wind up

going bankrupt or they're getting chased down for the money for the rest of their life it's horrible it's the number one cause of bankruptcy in America medical debt i mean coming from the UK where we've got the NHS it feels [ __ ] barbaric it is it really does feel barbaric i remember I went to New Orleans and I was getting this great ghost tour on an evening time it's like fun tourist [ __ ] to do in New Orleans i do those and uh the guy the guide was so good my mother was a

Wiccan and I don't know if that was true but this the tale was lovely anyway and uh he was telling me "I've got a a chipped wisdom tooth and my girlfriend uh got into a car wreck the other day." And he basically said he was explaining to me about how you can get bankrupted by this stuff he's like "If you get hit by a car and you don't have insurance you better [ __ ] walk it off because if you don't that could be the end of essentially the beginning of the end of your life."

And that really I mean that was six seven years ago now and it's still like it ha that was the most haunting thing about the [ __ ] ghost tour was him telling me about him telling me about the medical debt and then I think the reaction to the United Health CEO killing as well for me somebody who didn't fully understand how many of the claims are uh denied uh I think that there was an increase by about 30% in denial of claims over only the most recent period and I just thought guy shoots person

typically the guy that shoots them is in the wrong and the reaction on the internet just I I I wasn't ready for it and it really sort of taught me this undercurrent of dissatisfaction that almost everybody in America has with the healthare system yeah i think it's a quiet epidemic i think there's been a lot of people massively affected by it and they're just steaming just sitting there seething just angry waiting for some righteous person to come in and do but then you see the [ __ ] revolving door between the FDA and the pharmaceutical

drug corporations where these people leave and then all a sudden they have these amazing jobs at pharmaceutical drug companies and they're making millions of dollars like how is that legal how is this whole thing legal like when you realize that doctors are incentivized to medicate people they're financially incentivized to give people certain medications whether it's vaccines they get bonuses if they vaccinate more than 60% of their clients and they lose those bonuses if people don't get vaccinated there's like a lot of creepy [ __ ] that's involved in medicine the FDA ban on compounded ompic

started yesterday oh it's a ban so so you have to get it from the big big companies correct i Brighgam taught me about this i didn't understand how it works if there's a shortage of a drug compounding pharmacies are kind of allowed to just bypass patents in some way and it's like you can produce it and you can make it cheaper and more widely available because the supply chain's [ __ ] or something like that and uh yes that would be a good thing for society well to make more drugs more widely available for cheaper

if it's good if it's a very important pharmaceutical drug that can save people's lives imagine imagine not letting compoundies make it for people that can't get it yeah or can't afford it or don't have the insurance for it so yeah I mean that that came into effect i think Tzepide got popped yesterday and then uh partway through April uh semiglutide is going to go as well yeah that's all just eliminating competition right mhm well we need to think you know all of the people that are using these drugs that are are losing weight with them

whatever we need to think about who the real uh sort of people suffering from this situation are who are the stock owners of telly health companies if you own him or whatever the stocks declined by a lot but dude I've been thinking so much about OMIC recently and um I think the introduction of OMIC proves how much of a scam the body positivity movement was all along mhm you look at the Golden Globes and all of the women that were supporting their bigger sisters as soon as there was an easy route to being able to

as to being able to become a skeleton they look like this look like this guy here they all get those sucked in cheeks and the eye sockets suck in it looks really creepy it was it just shows how flimsy your principles are that it was easier for you to say "I can't win this particular game therefore the game is rigged." Like if you can't get what you want you have to teach yourself to want what you can get and then proclaim to everybody else that they should get it too yes and uh yeah the Golden

Globes you just got these [ __ ] skeleton [ __ ] walking around and um yeah I mean it they women of Hollywood are now facing the same dilemma that dudes who go to the gym have had for decades because it's pointless losing weight naturally why would you lose weight naturally because everybody's going to accuse you of having used as epic in any case same thing as a dude if you gain weight as a guy and you get jacked really jacked if you really discipline yourself you know multiple years progressive overload time under tension hitting

your protein goals getting enough sleep what your friends and the people of the internet will say is "Yeah dude easy if you take trend alone." And it's the exact same so what is the incentive for anybody to lose weight naturally now and apart from I have some concerns about the drugs and the side effects and so on and so forth uh socially there is no incentive for you to lose weight naturally remember when Adele lost all that weight uh-huh i think mad at her in the before time she did it in the before times dude

she did it hard yeah she did it the [ __ ] Yeah exactly yeah exactly extreme difficulty um but yeah now now she's hot do you remember when she did that Jamaica thing she came out and she had all of her hair like done like this but uh yeah there's this odd like Pascal's wager that you have to make where you think I can either lose weight normally or without assistance it's going to be more difficult and people are going to accuse me of using Ompic in any case or I can just take it and

it'll be easier and they'll accuse me of it and nothing changes yeah I'm in favor of Osmpic for people that are morally morbidly obese i think anything that can get you on the path and I think if you can combine that if you can say "Okay this is what I'm doing so I'm going to do this and then I'm going to start an exercise program." And then you wind up losing 30 40 pounds you feel better you look better if you can continue this exercise program you've at least put a healthy thing in your life

along with ompic i think that's critical because also that's can that can mitigate some of the negative effects of one of the things that we're seeing is that people are losing a lot of muscle mass and a lot of bone mass as much as 30% of the weight that people are losing is muscle and bone and um that I think could probably be mitigated with regular strength training you know you're only hearing about this from people that aren't strength do not have a fitness regime right right but which is the majority of these people that

need this drug that's how they got fat in the first place exactly so Johan Hari did a really great book on this you've had Johan on a bunch of times he wrote this book called Magic Pill and he's got just a really nice takeaway he says uh if you're under BMI of 30 and you're trying to lose weight go [ __ ] yourself like if you're between 30 and 35 there's probably a value judgment you need to make and if you're over 35 BMI the costbenefit analysis seems to sort of work in your favor yeah

um yeah people are losing more uh muscle and bone mass from using OMIC than you would typically if you were not using that but I think that that's just largely a selection criteria for the sort of people that are using OMI to help them lose weight that they're not having to they're so heavily calorierestricted that they don't need to have a fitness program they don't have to really change their diet i learned this Johan taught me this thing it's super interesting uh gastric band surgery after people have that the suicide risk is is pretty high

and sometimes it's because of these surgeons that leave the gauze in or you know like leave a scalpel or like a [ __ ] cigar end in there's complications that can happen physically but the other thing that happens is these people used food as their coping mechanism for how they would feel better right and their ability to eat and their appetite has gone away but their psychological issues have not and they don't have a coping mechanism they've no longer got this outlet right and then there's the issue also you're not going to feel as good

because your body's not absorbing nutrients correctly you're missing some of your stomach you know it's like your stomach fills up quicker because they removed part of it like that can't be good just for overall metabolic health like you're you're you've diminished your body's ability to break down food that just can't be good and there's other ways to do it there's other ways to do it it's like there's a gambling term that you got to get better the same way you got sick so like say if you and I were playing uh pool and we're playing

for $100 a game okay and you're up five games you're up 500 bucks and I say "Next game for 500 bucks." And you go "No you got to get better the same way you got sick." Oh that's interesting you can't just win one game and now you're even and they're like "Come on what are you [ __ ] you scared?" Like no that's not how this works you lost one at a time you're not getting it all back you went down a dark road and you missed a lot of shots and now you're [ __

] and I'm not going to let you off the hook with one easy thing i might do that if it's like "Okay you put up a thousand and I'll put up 300." We'll see that you stack it in my Yeah if you reflect in the odds where we're at financially at the moment yeah you got to jack it in my favor well I'm willing to make a risk yeah yeah it's a It's a strange i think another thing with OMIC I have this theory that I think thin people are more prejudiced against people that use

OMIC than fat people are so typically you would say hold stay with me i think you're right so um you would have imagined and this did happen some areas of the body positivity movement said that it was denying their right to exist that it was like erasia you know um that you're losing your bigger brothers and sisters i don't know uh but they're not actually threatened in the same way as uh in weight people are so I'm aware that losing weight through ampic is not the same as getting in shape especially if you don't do

the health and fitness regime if you don't do the resistance exercise you end up gone skinny fat you know jowls big cheeks all that stuff but the signal of being in shape let's just take that as being in shape right like a normal BMI the signal of being in shape is usually a reliable indicator of what you've done to have to get there right uh disciplined uh reliable uh able to do hard things uh self-motivated consistent consistent stick to a routine conscientious industrious all of these things yeah so you look at somebody who's in shape

and you think I can infer from your body a lot of things about who you are beyond just your body i actually think that this is one of the huge benefits that most people don't realize about getting in shape if they want to attract a partner or whatever it's sure the body looks great when you take the clothes off but what does it signal about your personality about your underlying values and and what you do now the problem with the introduction of easier routes to being in shape is that it's completely dergated the signal the

signal is now no longer reliable right because previously the signal said "I've had to jump through all of these different hoops." Well now how do you know if they've jumped through all of those hoops or if they're just shooting a Zmpic once a week right and I think that this explains why a lot of people who are in shape have a real visceral reaction now sure lots of people are concerned about the drugs fenfen was this thing in the '90s [ __ ] people up it was speed yeah i mean it's a good way to

lose weight i I knew a girl who was on it she was a very pretty girl that was a little heavy and then uh got on the fen fen and just wanted to talk to everybody couldn't stop talking and got real thin i was like "This is crazy." And then she developed a heart problem oh yeah that she kept for the rest of her life I believe i don't know her anymore but uh I ran into her a couple years later and she was telling me she has a heart problem there's been no free lunch

in weight loss ever yet no and I think that people are looking at the GLP1s and thinking where's the side effect when's it coming what's it going to do well there's tons of side effects uh it depends upon the person because obviously people are very different biologically everyone has a different tolerance to alcohol people have different tolerances to foods and and you're going to have different tolerances to medications and uh I have good friends that have had horrible side effects from OAMPic they tried it they got on it had terrible pancreatitis yeah I got a

buddy of mine who was in he was in bed for two weeks um he was really sick and uh I know several other people that just feel terrible when they take it and they had to get off of it it was really [ __ ] with them and then I know other people that have taken it like uh a buddy of mine that works at the UFC we ran into him the other day i'm like "Dude you look [ __ ] great." And he's like "Yeah I got on Zbec [ __ ] it i just

went for it." I said "Hey man." And he had a whole plan he's going to get down to certain weight and then he's going to taper off and he you know but he looked great he looked great you seen Alex Jones yeah but Alex is not on anything i know so was epic at all he's just he works with my friend Sean on it i've been watching I've been watching him train been watching him train on a Tuesday not watching him train he trains when I train i'm not following Alex Jones around uh and he's

likely story getting after I know that's exactly what someone from the deep state would say do you know him did or did you just see him there i've spied him over the far side you never had a conversation with him i once saw him when I did Tim P's show in the RV outside of the InfoWars car park oh yeah i did that yeah you It was the same week that was the first week I was ever in Austin it was three and a bit years ago i remember that live stream uh that was fun

alex is a lovely person he really He's working He's working really hard in the gym if he just had that one thing that he didn't talk about that's it it's that one thing everything else has been mostly right about you know what I should have said alex Jones is like the [ __ ] patient zero for if you lose weight by going to the gym and working out and changing your diet people are just going to say it was ampic no people think he's a totally different person they think they've replaced Alex Jones with someone

else is this what did a David Ike have a pop at Alex Jones recently who did David Ike get in trouble with Jamie was that I feel like there was some It was somebody else in that sort of a world but yeah I mean if the reptile people like it does it gets a bit reptiley when you get down to the lower body fat percentage david Ike I saw something he got upset that I've never had him on the show and it's just the reptile stuff it's just the the shape shifter stuff i would still

have them on i think fascinating to try to pick some of those ideas or listen to them even if you don't believe in the ideas what's interesting is how does somebody arrive at them right that's what's fascinating to me when I do my show I speak to someone I'm like I want to understand the psychology of how you have arrived at this particular position well imagine if it's real imagine if if shape shifters were real if there really are evil reptilian aliens and they've infiltrated our society and they've been pulling the strings forever and only

a couple people knew how ridiculous would that idea be how ridicul it would be so ridiculous but is an alien shape shifter rep you know reptile person is that any weirder than the most recent theory that our entire universe is taking place inside of a black hole that's in another universe yeah there's recent calculations that are leading these I guess it would be astrophysicists like who would who'd be studying this to believe have you see if you can find it Jamie it's the most bizarre headline cuz you're like "What the [ __ ] are you

saying?" Like the whole universe is inside of a black hole new NASA data hints we could be living inside a black hole great now is that isn't that weirder than reptile people cuz reptile people those are the two choices reptile people's not that weird right like octtopi have the ability to completely transform their appearance and instantaneously adapt to an environment why wouldn't we assume to some super advanced species from another planet that would be we would be horrified if we saw their real face they just transform and look like the queen of England yeah and

go sideways like that yeah [ __ ] uh do you know what a Boltzman brain is have you ever heard of this no okay so um in an infinite universe infinite there is only let's say the size of your brain it's like whatever 20 cm cubed or something maybe 30 cm cubed inside that space there's only so many ways that you can put matter together so that it creates uh anything there's a limited number of ways that matter can come together with different elements different structures different everything like that so Boltzman brain suggests that across

an infinite universe there will be a brain the exact same as yours the exact structure as yours that comes into existence for a moment and then goes away and the reason that you could be experiencing the world that you are now all of your memories your past your history the person that you think you are is that you were a Boltzman brain that just comes into existence and then goes "Oh why do you come into existence and then go away why don't you just exist somewhere else?" You could exist somewhere else but this brain appears

just spontaneously because in an infinite universe there are only so many different ways that you can piece matter together right and it means that if you It's the monkeys typewriter thing it's the exact same as that but for the way that matter is constructed it's basically uh like a brain in a vat idea but using infinite physics to kind of explain it the way it was explained to me is that if the universe is truly infinite not only is there another version of you somewhere but there is another version of you that did the exact

same thing you have done every step of the way every time you sneezed every hesitation before you spoke your mind every time you almost went into traffic when you didn't realize the light was still red all of those things have happened in the exact same order an infinite number of times and every possible conceivable variation that you wore red instead of blue y that you turned left instead of right yep went trans instead of straight all of it all of it that you live in a totalitarian environment that you live in a utopia that you

that you know the the Germans won the war that yeah all that everything everything that could possibly be different would be different and in every possible scenario that's what infinite means it means it's so vast like the craziest one to me was the concept that inside every galaxy in the center of every galaxy is a super massive black hole and that super massive black hole is approximately 1 half of 1% of the mass the entire galaxy if you go into that super massive black hole so there's hundreds of billions of galaxies right inside that super

massive black hole is an entirely another universe filled with uni with with all sorts of different galaxies that have super massive black holes in them you go into one of those another universe filled super massive black holes another universe filled all super massive black holes each one another universe it's just a windzip file all the way down why is that weirder than the universe is infinite why is that weirder i mean what just the the weirdness of what it is is so [ __ ] insane the idea that it's infinite or that there's an infinite

multiveres and in infinite versions of these things inside black holes and in in in all sorts of ways that we haven't even really figured out yet that's That's not that much weirder than what's real what's real is insane what's real is that the whole thing was smaller than the head of a pen and for no understandable reason it expanded instantaneously and became the universe that you you see in the sky today okay okay what What the [ __ ] are you saying like McKenna had a great line about that that science requires of you but

one miracle the Big Bang mhm it's a bad it's a miracle it's it's what is it what is it if it's not that i mean it's a thing of science yes okay so if you can study all of the matter and you study all of the forces and all the energy and all the reasons why matter coaleses or matter expands yes you could probably given enough time and enough quantum computing power figure out what's causing everything to compress down smaller than the head of a pin and then explode but it's still crazy it's It's even

if you can you had some scientific explanation for it it's [ __ ] insane i got into supervoids so there's Oh yeah the bua is super void so areas of the universe that have big absences of matter way more than there should be and the the uh bueta supervoid is the biggest one i think a ton 6118 or something is one of the biggest stars or one of the biggest black holes and then this beta is super void is because you would expect homogeneity across the universe things should be distributed pretty evenly no so what's

this big hole here jamie can you try and find a a boot buet suns you realize just how [ __ ] insignificant are you get the suns that are as big as our galaxy what the [ __ ] what the [ __ ] yeah i I I don't know if there's suns that big but there's definitely suns as big as our solar system well looking at the night sky gives you a really wonderful piece of perspective right it reminds you just how puny and insignificant you are i think that's a giant problem with our society

is that light pollution keeps us from seeing that all the time the mysterious hole in the universe that's billions of times larger than the Milky Way yeah so go one left a list of voids Jeremy yeah that one just big holes yeah so you should not have it should be more evenly distributed yeah and yeah the bueta is void you know this huge lack in the middle of It's so cool imagine you take a left turn in a spaceship and [ __ ] not here not the Betta supervoid not again and then god damn it

you you can't land for a 100 million years yeah dude i had uh I had Matthew McConnA on the show toward the back end of last year and we talked about Interstellar's 10th year anniversary that show is still that that movie is still my favorite movie of all time it's an amazing movie i just saw it again like a couple weeks ago me too it was incredible it's so good it's so weird such a weird movie nolan's a [ __ ] king he's a wizard everything that he does what's the new one he's What's his

new movie that he's in the Odyssey I think oh yeah what is the Odyssey like the Homer like the Oh god really i don't know that story either so I'm kind of Yeah I don't either part of me knows that I should have read it and part of me is glad that I didn't so I get to I don't know how it finishes i don't know how it ends yeah I think I probably read it in high school but I don't remember this is all we got i think cuz this picture of Matt Damon in

this outfit oh he's going to kill it there already complaints that it's not historically accurate why because of Matt Damon no because that's not what the armor would have looked like apparently it would have been He wouldn't have been able to see his face apparently but Oh really yeah but now if you Makes for a [ __ ] movie though you know what I mean like that's they're complaining already the lighter thank you um Yeah you can't always be historically accurate I guess yeah but that's all they got so far cast and uh Tom Holland

Robert Patson nice absolutely stacked did you see uh Matt Damon do Schultz's trailer yes I did yeah so [ __ ] good i have to say man that uh Schultz's most recent special is one of the best things i got to shout out Andrew Schultz like that was one of the best things that I've seen in so long i thought it was [ __ ] phenomenal it made me cry when I saw it live here in Austin twice i cried twice wow and then I saw it again before I had him on the show the

other week like just in the back of an Uber and like trying to not let the taxi driver see that I'm welling up he's talking about his wife says something to him where she says um the thing is honey you don't have problems we have problems i was like it was just so lovely and him talking about his experience trying to get pregnant and all of that stuff uh caused me to go and get uh get sperm count done i'm not trying to get anybody pregnant not at the moment but uh How old are you

37 do you have a a number where you'd like to start breeding breeding within the next few years i want to start a family soon but do you have a gal yeah the moment yeah I do how long you been with this gal six months do you ever go on a trip with her yeah you got to go on a long trip with them well I I think that 6 months might be a little bit early just yet to No if you want to find out what's up you got to go on a trip oh

you mean to work out compatibility yeah you got to see how they deal with travel how they deal with stress how they deal with restaurant what is it can they keep up their act when you're with them 24 hours a day for weeks at a time it was when I actually did do a weekl long trip in Jamaica and had to go from Montego Bay to Kingston twice to get my visa renewed now traveling through Jamaican traffic with somebody will really tell you an awful lot so yeah you're talking about like a Navy Seal hell

week of trying to throw difficult [ __ ] in that so that worked you just need to see what people are like when they're with you all the time because people put on a show they put on a show you're a handsome guy you're successful they want to impress you they want to pretend there's something that you would love and then maybe they have ideas of morphing you and changing you over time you know like you get a car like it's pretty good but I like to update the engine i do some [ __ ]

to the tires maybe change the way the interior looks you start changing it and then all of a sudden Chris is wearing different clothes what's going on Chris got to be careful i put these glasses on that's why it happened um but yeah the I I decided to go and get a sperm count thing done you know what a varicus seal is no okay i Dude this is something that I think every single guy needs to know about so it's basically when you go through puberty the way that uh the veins sort of form that

blow heat off from your balls they can form in a way where they just don't um get rid of the heat that efficiently cool your balls good not not enough and it's in 15% of men so it's super super common but 50% of men that go to urologist have got this and I go in and I've had these balls my entire life i've had these balls thank you uh I didn't They're not transplants i've had these balls since puberty and I found out at the age of 36 oh you've got a medium varicus so the

mad thing about this is mo you'll know this if you take testosterone it plummets your sperm count so typically testosterone and sperm kind of work against each other in that kind of a direction this is the one thing where if you get it fixed both go up so the mean change in testosterone is 180 points how do they fix it they just uh it's surgery it's a small surgery where they do an incision in your groin and they just uh fix the vascule balls and surgery are two things that I don't like together i like

both of them i don't think they should be never the twain she'll meet yeah i ball surgery is scary do you know that if you get your uh you can get a dick transplant if like you lose your dick but you cannot get ball transplants you know why no because you will carry the DNA of the original person so say if I die and you get my balls you will have my DNA you will have my kids so why can't I have your balls well you could if I gave you permission maybe but it's un

Why don't we swap one ball each i was like tossing a coin see whose kids make it and then we do a DNA test ley was the one that came out my kids are Chris's what the [ __ ] we come out speaking British that would be fun if we both like if if you had an elective surgery to swap balls with a a good buddy like I love you so much i want to swap a ball with you y and we both don't know which one it's going to be you never know it's like

cuz I had a gay couple that were friends uh that lived down the street from me and they had a kid with a surrogate and they shot their jizz into a cup and mixed it up so they didn't know who's who's gonna be the one who has the kid whoa two men one cup they had to do it twice too because the first time the lady kept the kid they paid her they did the whole thing at the end of it she decided she wanted to keep the baby dude the ethics of surrogacy are really

interesting it's weird it's a weird thing you're hiring someone to take to to have your baby for you and then wealthy people are doing it so they don't get their coot stretched out that was the Kardashian approach right allegedly that's why she did it well maybe she just didn't want to carry babies anymore she had a couple of them the normal way and then but it's like so much of what the child experiences in the womb it like leads to this I would imagine this bonding thing with the woman the baby's inside of you you

remember feeling the baby inside of you it grows inside of you then it comes out of you and you raise it and it breastfeeds it's like this bond is I understand surrogacy if someone can't get pregnant if it this is the only way you can have kids i'm not saying don't do it but I'm saying it's [ __ ] strange because this other person is whatever anxiety they have fear their cortisol levels if they're have domestic abuse in their house like all that information is being transferred to the child pregnancy doesn't just make a kid

it also makes a mother and uh it's dangerous i I'm so conflict i mean test tube babies what happens if we can just create artificial wombs you know something that's weird i know that people don't get they don't choose to be born but somebody chooses whether or not these two sets of DNA are going to come together if you've just got sperm donor after sperm donor and egg donor after egg donor and artificial wombs gets to the stage where people kind of aren't choosing who's coming into reality that much anymore well that is definitely the

future i mean look at plummeting sperm counts look at um rising miscarriage rates look at the the problems that people are having with microplastics and the disruption of the endocrine system and pesticides and herbicides and all these different ubiquitous chemicals that are affecting people's sperm counts and fertility it's it's a real factor and it's plummeting if you look at the if you look at like human beings from the last 60 70 years and you look at males in America where their sperm count used to be where it is now it's rapidly decreasing there's a lot

of factors sedentary lifestyle processed foods lot but there's also environmental factors that seem to be altering the actual way a child develops in the womb and this is uh Dr shana Swan's work countdown yeah which is an incredible just it's an incredible book but it's just an incredible fact that the plastics that we use from microwave foods and water bottles and all that stuff is literally changing the development of children it's changing the size of their testicles the size of their penises the anogenital distance yeah yeah the the taint shrinks it's really crazy stuff and

it's it's it replicates what happens in mammals when they when they do these studies with rats and hamsters and same things happen a third of all children globally are going to be obese by 2050 jesus that's the current trajectory and 1 billion people worldwide are obese so the number one form of malnutrition globally is obesity not starvation there's twice as many people that are obese than are starving that's crazy if that's not a comment on problems of abundance as opposed to problems of scarcity yeah it's not even abundance though it's the food is so calorier

rich and filled with [ __ ] you know that you just you just you get so fat so quick like if you're eating nothing but junk food and drinking nothing but soda as I sit here with a large diet coke which I usually don't drink but I do occasionally um that is like a diet coke at least doesn't have the calories but if you're having a large Coke like that like if you have a Coke like this what is this a liter this is probably a liter 750 maybe or a liter yeah it's a liter

so how much sugar is in one liter of Coca-Cola let's find that out well there's nothing in that one right which is why it's a diet yeah it's just brain cancer [Laughter] donald Rumsfeld approved brain cancer 94.7 g of sugar and so much sugar 4.7 g and people polish these things off every day someone's polishing off a 2 L of Mountain Dew listening to this as we speak so that's probably double that so that's hundreds hundreds of grams of sugar the big gulps the average American is fatter than the average American pig now it's true

it's true average American man 28% body fat average American woman 40% body fat average American pig 15 to 25% body fat oh my god yep i would have thought it would be higher than 28% i think we're doing pretty good for guys yeah well I guess it's it's offset by like Brian Johnson and all of the OMIC people that are just shredded super shredded yeah exactly and then there was that that other thing about you talking about kids is it some huge percentage of 18 to 24 year olds couldn't join the military yeah like 70%

because of mental health or obesity or or drug use or something and half of them had two or more of these excuses for why you couldn't do it and I think if you track over time the amount of military service that people have had so much less now it's so much less and I wonder how many of the issues that we're seeing even uh women being attracted to guys i think that what you want to do as a guy is try and signal uh the again the same as going to the gym reliable orderly conscientious

I can be on time I can do hard things this is one of the proposed uh explanations for the baby boom was that a lot of men that did come back from war were signaling their eligibility signaling how reliable they could be and it made it easier for women to be attracted in that way that makes sense i mean imagine a woman you're you're going to get pregnant and so you're going to be you could work for a little while but towards the end you're not going to be able to work and then after the

child it's going to be very difficult to work so you're relying on this other person that like how well do you know this person did you do that 10day vacation in Jamaica with that guy did you go did he drive from Montego Bay to Kingston twice in bad traffic do you know what happens when he makes mistakes does he blame other people or does does he apologize like what who is he you know cuz all that shit's going to come up when you get 4 hours sleep cuz the baby's crying and and then you know

maybe he doesn't like his job anymore he wants to quit you're like you can't quit [ __ ] you have to feed us you have to take care of a family now you're not going to just quit what are you talking about you don't like your job show up and I can't imagine relying on another person like that i mean this is why women are so picky like when you see that 80% of the women are attracted to 20% of the men and that's that's what that is what did you expect what did you expect

it's it's hard to have your [ __ ] together it's hard to be kicking ass in this [ __ ] complicated bizarre world that we live in it's hard so for a woman of course they're going to grab What about personality yeah you're a [ __ ] lazy [ __ ] that's part of your personality part of the reason why you're not successful at 40 years of age has to be you has to be some of it has to be i mean it could be a [ __ ] avalanche of bad luck one thing after

the other but I would like to see that you're making progress towards a better direction but if you're stuck in this modal if you're stuck in this mindset of you know the world [ __ ] me over it's like never going to No one's going to want to be with you no one's going to want to have children with you no one's gonna no one's gonna be willing to rely on you to support a family like you have to get your [ __ ] together and you have to also be attractive which is just dumb

luck like you have the dumb luck of genetics you got a good face oo you know you got a good body a lot of that's genetics too you know like what they like and what they don't like is mostly about breeding it's mostly about is this person reliable to breed with it's interesting to think about the uh you mentioned earlier on about going to the gym is rightwing and liking fast cars is rightwing and all the rest of it the number of liberal women that are struggling I think to find an eligible partner is going

up because they just can't find a guy that will hold the door open for them that'll treat them like a lady that'll try and be the protector provider procreator thing you go you're talking about a conservative you're talking about somebody who's more traditional in that way and um I get worried you know I sort of talk a lot about this stuff on the show and I get worried about not helping men to improve and this sort of zero someum view of empathy that if you give some attention to men and the way that they're struggling

that it takes it away from some other more deserving group so a lot of the time if if someone's falling behind 50 years ago Title N gets introduced right for women it's not enough women in higher education not enough of women expediting them through socioeconomic status 50 years later they've blown the [ __ ] roof off the glass ceiling it doesn't exist two women for every one man completing a four-year US college degree by 2030 women earn way more than men do in their 20s way more and now how are you it's going to be

difficult for you to find an eligible partner as you begin to climb up your own socioeconomic ladder as you get higher and higher up you look across and there are fewer and fewer men over there and what you think is okay well typically if a group is falling behind in society we don't tell them to pick themselves up by their bootstraps we spend billions of money in taxpayer funded charities and think tanks to try and work out what's going on and to try and bring them along for the ride that's not happening with men because

vestigually for so long men had it so good and now it's I don't know it feels like uh twisting the knife in some sort of karmic retribution in a way like um this is penance that you're paying but a lot of guys you you can look at the number of CEOs and sure guys that outperform on the top end yep but that's not necessarily due to privilege it's because putting yourself in that position to do what you need to do to get yourself to the position of being a founder being a CEO having running a

successful company is so [ __ ] insane that most women would just choose to not go and do that you're talking about outliers evolutionary psychology says that men and nature's play things that there's more variability there's more male geniuses but there's also more male retards and it's all well and good pointing to the number of CEOs and and Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and all the rest of it that doesn't help the guy who is really struggling and has had that run of bad luck and has been really struggling trying to work on himself and

uh yeah if women have a problem a lot of the time we say what can we do to fix society any other group but if men are struggling we say what is it that men are doing where they can't fix themselves and in some ways that's inspiring like guys want that sense of like I can [ __ ] do this i can do this but it denies that there's structural problems i think the education system for young boys is really really tough getting them to sit in a classroom still for six hours a day it

seems like females are just better at doing that young girls are more effective at a sort of brainbased economy highlighting and and and planning ahead of the homework that they've got to do and the assignments and stuff like that and you just roll that forward two women for every one man completing a four years college degree and I'm not saying "Oh let's rip women out of the classroom and out of the boardroom and put them back into the kitchen." Like obviously not obviously that's not what either of us are saying what do you think is

the cause of it like what do you think is the reason why more men aren't succeeding and getting college degrees and more men aren't going out and making as much money in their 20s i think that the current environment does not necessarily lend itself to the disposition that men have got so they're less conscientious than women from a personality standpoint on average that means that it's really difficult comparatively on average for you to be able to remind yourself that you need to do the sort of homework men are more predisposed to addiction they're more predisposed

to using recreational drugs they're more predisposed to being in jail to all of the sort of gang stuff that people get drawn into it's just more likely for guys there are more roots that men can be pulled away in that sort of a manner and on top of it I don't think that there is a particularly inspiring uh vision for what men but you said earlier on about fitness rightwing fast cars rightwing there was this uh thread on Reddit I think in a left-leaning forum that said "People of the left can you give me a

good example of who you think a positive male role model would be?" The top voted one was Aragon from Lord of the Rings what about Fabio you've had to go to a fantasy land in order to be able to find somebody who's sufficiently pure and I think that you know this is one of the issues that we see on the left which is there is no level of purity or the level of purity you need to be able to get to is so high doesn't exist how many people have gone from left to right i

I left to left type thing like that quite a few how many people have gone from right to left very few why because if you have got a slightly feted past if you maybe said things in in the past that didn't agree with where we are at now the right will welcome with open arms but the left one why do you think that is i think that there is a level of puritanism on the left where they are unprepared to they're unprepared to accept people who have had uh positions that they don't agree with there

seems to be this odd purity spiral where they're constantly trying to point out people who are no longer agreeing with the uh ideology jour of the modern world what do you think why do you think it is i think that's probably a factor um I also think that corporate America um the the whole structure of it with human resources and people working together it's just like it's not necessarily what men want what men want if if you want men to work in the best environment possible for men they would work with mostly men and they

would probably be able to speak and communicate in a way that they did on mad men you know they'd act like men like men like to act like men most men that are involved in corporate life act like some strange character that is what a man is supposed to be uh especially if you're supposed to espouse all the l latest social justice you know whatever the mantra is that you have to repeat if you if you have to rigidly adhere to an ideology in order to fit in with your corporate environment you're going to do

that and you're going to be trapped in that and you're going to just desperately want some escape that's why CEOs wind up going to dominatrix and getting [ __ ] ball gagged and kicked in the balls and [ __ ] like what do you think that is it's like they they need something something wild to escape from the the mundane existence that they have in the corporate world that the person that's in control all the time so privately I need to be out of control it's just not compatible for most men like that type of

environment the the a work office environment is not it's not compatible you don't nobody wants to do that what you want is the rewards of that you want the money you know you want success you want status you want all those things you want the corner office but what you don't want is to work in that environment if you could choose to make the same kind of money doing things that you love to do having fun like if all these corporate CEOs could make as much money playing golf I bet they would play golf i

I don't think they really want to be doing that they're doing that because it's the way in order it's it's the way to succeed and the way to make money and it feels like hell feels like hell you're stuck in traffic every day you're stuck in the office you're not working eight hours a day if you want to really make it and this is the diff this is like the why the wage gap between men and women was such an insidious lie because they were always saying women make 75 cents to every dollar a man

makes and people repeat that without understanding what it actually means no it's it's job choices and hours worked those are the primary factors that lead to men earning more money than women it's it's not a man and a woman are doing the same job and someone rips off the woman by only giving her 75 cents to what the man works if that was the case and they the woman Yeah you would only employ women cuz women you'd pay him less they do a better job anyway right ladies so there you go it's it's nonsense and

but that thing that Obama repeated on television I remember watching him say that going "He knows better than this this is [ __ ] this is a [ __ ] statistic." But it's it's a heartstring statistic it it plays headline yeah it plays on your what you want to believe rather than what's true and women have to take time off for maternity leave they have to they you know if they get pregnant it's going to signific significantly impact the amount of hours they're willing to work they might not want to do the job anymore once

they're raising their children if their husband's making enough money they probably want to quit they want to be at home with their kids it's a normal thing and then a lot of women who are career corporate women are shamed for wanting to stay home with their children yeah oh you've been conned by the patriarchy into being a domestic prostitute so um I was talking to was it Schultz that said this i think it was he was telling me on the show he said uh that his wife used to work at Google i think she's like

super highowered real smart lady and um she used to bump into her old colleagues in the supermarket when they were together and the classic question that somebody that's in the career trenches asks somebody else is "Oh so what are you doing now you left you left work what what are you doing now?" And Schultz said this sentence that his wife replied with would [ __ ] kill him she says "Oh I'm just a mum." He said "It's the just that really hurts i'm just a mom." Well that's how you feel like you're you're supposed to

admit that you're just a mom that [ __ ] hurts dude to derate the people that are literally raising the next generation that's another point actually about sort of men falling behind i think it seems like young boys are more negatively impacted by fatherless homes than young girls are so any boy that grows up in an in intact a non-intact uh household is more likely to end up in jail or prison than they are to complete college in the US yeah any non-intact that's adopted stepparent single parent any non-intact home they're more likely to end

up in jail or in prison than they are to complete college and the same statistic is not true for girls and this again the zero sums of this so what are you saying are you saying that we need to we need to hold girls back it's like no you do not need to hold one group back in order to be able to raise another one up we spent 50 years really pedestalizing and helping take the reigns off of young girls so that socioeconomically they can look after themselves they're no longer financial prisoners right of their

partner which is a big deal you look at the divorce statistics from the past and proclaim it as some you know amazing cultural outgrowth and you go how many women stayed in those relationships because they [ __ ] couldn't afford to leave right they had no other option to do that that's scary that's scary that's why women are so picky and they should be yep that's Yeah it's it's also crazy that we put value in our lives on money above everything including above doing a good job raising your children you put the money that you

earn above that and you just get daycare during the day i'll be home at 6 that's fine that's plenty of time to be with my kid and there's a lot of people that live their life by that and their ledger when they they look at the amount of money that they've earned that's what that's the reward it's the greatest metric in the world though it's the most easy to optimize thing like I can tell you the size of the house that I live in i can tell you how much money I earn per year i

can tell you what the car is like that I drive but I can't tell you how much peace I have when my head hits the pillow at night i can't tell you what the quality of the relationship between me and my wife or me and my kids is i can't tell you how much time I got to spend in a hammock last week you know these are the things I think that if you were able to metric it if you were able to make it a game people would be able to pay an awful lot

more attention to it but the money is the best game in the world it's literally transfer currency exchange you can exchange i know what your wealth is compared with that guy in Japan compared with that dude in Russia compared with this person that's Australian whole world it's the best game ever created and it's the game that so many people use to show their value i mean it's not just your the richness of your life the happiness that you have the fulfilled feeling that you have when you do whatever you it is that you do where

you feel like you have a sense of purpose no that's not can't quantify that can't measure it can't put it on a scale it's useless meanwhile it's the most important thing the most important thing is satisfaction satisfaction in your life community love friendship happiness uh a sense of purpose like you enjoy what you do that's so important for life if you are just doing something you don't want to do just for money you live in hell and that's most people most people live in this like dull hell and they try to have fun while they're

at work they try to you know have people that they talk to at work hopefully make some good friends at work and you can enjoy your chitter chatter at the water cooler but the reality of that life is just mostly suck there's a lot of problems I think that people that are driven face that uh don't get that much sympathy so I had this idea that um type A people have type B problems and type B people have type A problems so um insecure overachievers need to learn how to chill out and lazy people need

to learn how to work hard and be more disciplined and um you know most people that listen to shows like yours or mine are probably some version of type A like a a kind of walking anxiety disorder harness for productivity true that's a great definition it is and um that's really accurate i think the thing that type A people realize is that if you're type A you get very little sympathy because a outwardly successful but miserable person is way less always appears to be in a much more preferential position than a content being lazy but

on the verge of bankruptcy one right you know what I mean right right so problems of opportunity will always get less sympathy than ones of scarcity mhm like one feels like a choice and the other feels like a limitation one is like a a bourgeoa luxury and the other is like a systemic imposition you know I need someone to teach me how to switch off and relax feels dopamineergic and opulent and addicted and and privileged i need someone how to to teach me how to work harder feels noble and upward aiming and like you're supporting

you're supporting the the downtrodden like every underdog movie in history has a training montage of some guy down on his luck that gets saved by the right woman or a Japanese dude that teaches him to wash cars or whatever it is and through grit grit and spit and sawdust he sorts himself out and he fixes his life yeah no movie explains how to log out of Slack at 6 p.m right or spend a day at the beach without feeling guilty right and so yeah I think in that sense type A people may objectively have better

lives but subjectively they're ravaged by the sense that they've never done enough right they wake up every single morning feeling as if they've already trying to repay some productivity debt and only if they dance through the day completely perfectly nail every single task can they go to bed not feeling like a wasteman that's where they're at congratulations you might be very successful you also might be very miserable you're most likely going to be miserable that's the the cold hard reality of most CEOs most really wealthy people when you see them pull up in the yacht

they're [ __ ] living hell i think when you look at people that are super outlier performers you should probably your first emotion should not be envy it should be pity should think what's that person what's it like inside of that person to drive them to do what they did to themselves to put them in that position what's what's their background like what happened in their childhood what do they think about their own sense of selfworth in order how much aderall are they on the old performance enhancer yeah the testosterone for the businessman it's not

just performance enhancer i think it changes the way you you approach things i think uh Have you ever taken it no no no i'm scared of I'm scared of speed i'm scared of anything that I think I would really like yeah you haven't done cocaine for the same reason right yes yeah yeah yeah well I was very lucky when I was in high school i knew some people that had problems with it and Big warning sign yeah well and back then I was very driven like I didn't even party really i I only wanted to

get good at martial arts i was so driven that I didn't want to do anything that would interfere with anything else what was it that drove you why why why this drive for so long uh there's probably a lot of factors i mean I got into it because I didn't want to get picked on because I didn't know how to fight and I would be nervous around bullies i didn't know what to do and I'm like this I don't like this feeling at all like so I will become what everyone's afraid of so I'll do

that and then when I got into it I realized that first of all I realized that I could get really good at things i realized that whatever drive that I had and whatever thing about fighting which was so scary to me why was so appealing to me at the same time and I realized that it was like a vision quest i was on this quest to try to figure out how to harness my potential and what better way than to do something that's very difficult and very scary and then if you could get really good

at something very difficult and very scary you could probably master life so you had this uh gateway drug through martial arts that was a a proof to you that you could self- author yes yeah a proof that I wasn't a loser for for me it was like that I could be successful where did that I've heard you say that before about the the loser thing where did that fear come from did you feel powerless as a kid at some point yeah I'm sure it comes from broken home moving around a lot a lot of factors

there's a lot of lot of various factors um but it's also just the existential angst of being a young man like we you they're looking for purpose like who am I what do I do am I good at anything like what what gives me value and for me when I started doing martial arts it was the first time that I was respected and not just respected like I remember the first time I realized that people would uh gather around when I fought and I was like whoa this is kind of crazy like there they specifically

want to watch me fight and that was a big deal to me is like that I was so good that people were gathering around really it was they they wanted to see something horrible they wanted to see someone get head kicked you know and they knew I did that reliably you could kick someone in the head i was pretty good at it and so that that um changed me it changed my self-reflection it changed who I I was i wasn't a loser now I was a an extreme winner and really good at it and super

disciplined and driven beyond anything that I thought was possible before I'd done that i never had like that kind of focus before I got into martial arts but martial arts demanded that kind of focus because you can't pretend there's no pretending you're good you have to be good there's no pretending you're fast you have to be fast there's no pretending to be technical you have to be perfect your technique has to be perfect because you're fighting against other trained killers like you're not fighting your weaknesses will be revealed you're going to get hurt and I

saw so many people get hurt doesn't matter about what you tweeted it doesn't matter about your beliefs stepping onto the mat your [ __ ] rainbow flag that you have on your t-shirt nobody gives a [ __ ] so on that I think that's a very common pattern especially for young people who feel a little bit helpless in their life yeah um I find a a vector that makes me feel worthy um you know the the most common story of high performers I think is that I needed to do something to get the world to

recognize me one of the problems I think as people grow up is that they internalize this belief that the only way that the world will value me is if I can continue to perform at this high level and I think that there comes some people can embibe a type of insecurity in that that if I stop doing these things if I stop being as impressive to the world yes it's going to deny me its love that it is I I I'm going to be unwanted unworthy and I think that this talking about the high performer

thing talking about the pity of the CEO go how much are you running towards something that you want and how much are you running away from something that you fear that this not enoughness right right right and the way I looked at it and the way I was taught was that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential and that through the incredible struggle of training and competing you will learn more about your ability to excel at anything you know this is the Miiamoto Mousashi path and I think that the problem with uh

anything anything extreme but also fleeting and athletic performance is fleeting if you're at the very best you have a couple of decades at the very best if you're really lucky you have a couple of decades to define your you as a competitor but then your body will give out your age will win the the the the beating that your body takes from all the training and all the competing eventually you're not going to be able to perform at that level anymore and you're going to fall off and you see it with fighters it's it's really

hard with professional fighters where their whole identity is wrapped up in being a champion their whole identity is being the king of the hill and then they're no longer the king of the hill and sometimes it happens very rapidly sometimes it happens over the course of just one or two fights you go from being the pound-for-pound best in the world to a guy who nobody thinks is going to win the title again like that so six months later you're in a totally different reality you're in a depressed reality and then maybe you are physically depressed

because maybe you got really hurt in your last fight so you're probably suffering from some brain damage so you've got endocrine disruption your pituitary glands probably [ __ ] your cortisol levels are through the roof your hormone levels are all [ __ ] up you might have a hard time losing weight you know you're you're you're you're tired and depressed because your your levels are all [ __ ] up on your hormones because you're you you basically got your brains beat in six months your capacity to fix the very problem has been taken away from

you yeah and you you see it sometimes with one fight in a with a fighter you see like Tony Ferguson is like my favorite example who was the boogeyman the light heavyweight the lightweight division of the UFC for years for years he was the guy who's like this unstoppable force that had bottomless cardio never stopped coming after you and was just hellbent on destruction and beat the [ __ ] out of everybody beat the [ __ ] out of everybody for years until he fought Justin Gachi and Justin Gatei beat him so bad he was

never the same again he was never the same guy again he went from being a favorite in the Justin Gi fight I think he was a slight favorite going into that fight to after the fight was over he got stopped in the later rounds and never never recovered when do you think that was a physical thing or a mental thing both more physical than mental um because I think Tony's mental his fortitude is unstoppable he's just got this mindset but I don't think his body responded the way I saw him on a stair machine with

David Gogggins and Gogggins is screaming at him to keep going he gets off throws up in a bag and gets back on the stair no he's an animal his mind is unstoppable but at a certain point in time particularly when you're being tested right so you're doing the USADA protocol at the time and now it's a drug-free sport so there's no peptides there's no there's nothing that can aid you in recovery there's uh you know you can't supplement your hormones you can't recharge your hormone development you can't there's there's so many things that you can't

do because they are in fact performance enhancers that would help you recover you know if a guy like Tony Ferguson after that fight got on hormone replacement got on testosterone got his levels up pretty high got to a point where he could train as hard he probably wouldn't have had the slide that he had i think part of the slide is that everybody has to be natural and when you're natural and you get beat up a few times you're not the same person anymore and you I've seen it many many times one bad beating and

the guy's done it's a a big thing in boxing in boxing everybody points to uh Melick Taylor is one of the best examples fought Julio Cesar Chavez chavez broke him down in the fight and then stopped him with like a couple seconds to go in the last round dropped him and the referee called the fight with a couple seconds to go in the last round and Melrick Taylor was never the same again and he did in interviews uh after the fight and the interviews after the fight like a couple years later pronounced slurring in his

words um a very clear deterioration of his reflexes and his speed very clear deterioration in his ability to take a punch and even avoid punches his reflexes were off have you ever felt any TBI stuff from your heritage of doing striking no not really i'm sure it made me impulsive i'm sure I probably got the right amount of brain damage to succeed in life i think so because it made me uh not I'm not very riskaverse i like risks i I I enjoy them i I get a thrill out of uh taking chances i'm not

afraid to fail i don't mind because I know that failure produces some of the best results every time I've ever failed at anything I've always The humiliation and the pain of it has always forced me to work so much harder failure in comedy is a gigantic blessing if you have one good bombing woo it sucks like sucking a thousand dicks in front of your mother but when it's over you realize that that can happen you [ __ ] tighten up your battleship some of the biggest like growth leaps that I've seen in comics and and

even in fighters is a humiliating loss yeah there's a a special category of lesson that I've been thinking about it's one that you can only learn by sort of having gone through it and I think that bombing on stage or having a poor performance I think that that's one of them so I think most of them you only learn by going through them you learn something from watching other people's mistakes which is why I've never done cocaine uhhuh but maybe if I did do cocaine I would have been sober a long time ago and I

would have had a much better understanding of the abyss cocaine is a performance enhancer yeah it's it's strange you know no matter sort of how arduous or costly or effortful it's going to be for us to find out these things for ourselves for some reason we insist on disregarding the mountains of warnings that we have from our elders and historical catastrophes and public scandals and film and TV and we think some version of Yeah that might be true for them mhm but not for me it's the like watch me do this mom mentality and uh

yeah we decide to learn the hard lessons the hard way over and over again and unfortunately it always seems to be the big things you know it's never about how to charmingly introduce yourself at a cocktail party or put up a level set of shelves it's never that it's always We spend most of our lives learning firsthand the warnings that previous generations gave us over and over again and then one day you're like I'm going to throw all my money in crypto and then you will know about that but that's one of them one of

them is money won't make you happy right fame isn't going to fix your self worth you don't love that pretty girl she's just hot and difficult to get um you will regret working too much worrying isn't aiding your performance um nothing is as important as you think it is when you're thinking about it like over and over again you should see your parents more all your worries are a waste of time like these Yeah it it's perfectly okay to cut toxic people out of your life like these are so trit they're such basic [ __

] insights because everybody has heard them before but if they're so basic why does everyone who ends up arriving at them talk about them as if they've just had religious revelation you know what I mean like they have this further to them about why it is so important for you to listen that we couldn't have seen this coming how could we have seen this coming it's like it is in every single fable and story from the rest of time and I think that the one of the reasons this happens is if you don't have a

thing looking at somebody who has that thing they have the solution to your problem m if you don't have money you believe that by having money you would all of your problems would be fixed if you don't have fame you believe that fame is the thing that's going to get if you don't have the girl you think that getting the girl is going to do those things and it is only by getting there and looking back and going the issue that I thought would be fixed by getting the thing wasn't fixed no [ __ ]

i need to look deeper so not only do we refuse to sort of learn the lessons if you talk about this on the internet if you have a rich person on who says "You know what man i I earned a couple of billion dollars and uh I'm still I'm still pretty miserable." Or you you bring some actress on and she says "You know all of the fame and stuff like that it really didn't fix my self worth." The internet hates that it's a very contentious point to bring up and I think that we believe our

particular mental makeup would allow us to dance through this minefield yeah right no no no my unique inner landscape would be solved yes by this problem especially men watch me dance through this minefield avoid all of the trip wires do a couple of pirouetses and I won't kick any of them and then you kick one and you realize oh [ __ ] this this worry of mine was so much more deeply rooted than the thing that's from outside but I genuinely believe that you kind of need to learn it yourself i don't think you can

uh I've got Naval on the show on Sunday and he's got this he's [ __ ] phenomenal i think that by the way the one that you did with him in 2019 is the best podcast episode of all time really that two hours yeah it's just one I've gone back maybe it's just like personally meaningful to me but uh I must have listened to that I think more than any other he's very wise very wise person although he did tell me that if he could invest more money in Clubhouse he would have and I was

I was we were talking on the phone i was like "Dude I think this is just bad podcasting i don't think I don't think there's but Clubhouse took off during the pandemic because people found themselves at home and you know it's kind of cool to be able to hop on to a call with a bunch of other people and you're basically sharing ideas with people you've never met before and intellectually sparring and people loved it." But I was like "Bro when the world reopens I did it with Tim Dylan we did an episode once and

uh and he was like "Yeah it goes out there and then you know no one ever has." I go "Bullshit people are recording this right now." I go "It's going to be online." And it was online immediately immediately i go "This is nonsense." Like it's like uh at the mother ship making people put their phones in the bag but you can reopen the bag it's like that if you could reopen the bag yeah yeah but you can reopen the bag it's like I'm allowed to do this and just take it it's like everything's not Yeah

it's a real interesting one but he's got this quote where he says uh it's far easier to achieve our material desires than it is to renounce them but it's much easier for you to drive a beat up Chevy truck if your last car was a Ferrari sure yeah because you've closed that loop that what if i wonder what I wonder if it is the money i wonder if it is the fame i wonder if it is the But it depends on the circles you're keeping too because if you're keeping circles that are valuing those those

items that show like you've achieved milestones you know the there's a bunch of people that they they you know you don't have a Maybach oh you you have a this keeping up with the Joneses [ __ ] house oh your house is not in the best neighborhood huh i was thinking about um why I'm attracted to some of my friends like why I like to spend time with some over others and uh I sort of realized this this interesting dynamic that I hadn't really heard get talked about much which is we think that we want

to be charismatic like we think we want to step into a room and our stories are electric and our energy the aura everyone's super impressed by us i didn't actually notice that that was the sort of people that I was choosing to hang around with there's this story about Jenny Jerome who was Winston Churchill's mother and she gets to dine with uh William Gladstone and Benjamin Draeli the prime minister and the um uh opponent one night after the other and she says "After I left the dinner with Gladstone I left feeling like he was the

smartest person in England and after I left the dinner with Draeli I felt like I was the smartest woman in England." And I think this really helps to explain why we're why we gravitate towards certain people some people feel interesting and around some people we feel interesting and that's my favorite sort of person i think charis charisma being charismatic being energizing it's the sort of thing lots of people are seduced by they love the sound of it but it's kind of like developing real charisma like Matthew McCconor has sit opposite this guy and he's [

__ ] oozing charisma but it's way easier to be interested than it is to be interesting and it gets you probably 80% 90% of the way there just by caring asking questions thinking "Huh I want to know what you think about this that's cool Joe tell me about tell me more about that." And why do you think that you're built that way right and it helps i mean people just love to talk about themselves and the other thing is you know everything that you know you know barely anything that the other person knows right and

I mean this is why our job is largely the most selfish one that we could do we've Hey smart person come on here and tell me about your entire life's work tell the least educated person in the room about what it is that you've spent your time doing yeah and it's also it's very beneficial for the people that are listening which is another service that it provides like you get to be you like the person listening to your podcast gets to be you as you interview these spectacular people mh so they get to like like

"Oh yeah why why did why did you do that?" And then you say "Why did you do that?" Like "Yeah good question." You know what it feels like it feels like watching a sports game sometimes I think the best conversations whether they're around a table or a podcast or whatever it feels like watching a sports match and the two teams are kind of working together to get the ball in the goal and you get all excited and you're like "Oh he's going to do this." Oh head kick that's what I wanted yeah and um yeah

if you're ever listening to something I'm sure that this maybe happened to people listening to this episode they go "Fuck I hope he asks him about the he asked him about the thing." And yeah there's this sense that there's a third participant not just Jamie in the room where's Carl i just realized there should be a fourth part at home carl snores a lot he's chilling okay he's a sound risk see him a little bit sometimes he gets a little loud and while the podcast is going on you hear like nudge him roll him over

make him shut up yeah i um It depends on who I'm talking to like if I'm talking to like like a theoretical physicist and there's like some very difficult thing to grasp and you hear Carl snoring it becomes a little bit of an issue if it's coming through the headphones god damn it he's loud sleep train sleep train that dog no you can't he's gotten older he can handle it he needs a CPAP doggy CPAP [ __ ] have you seen what their faces look like when the skulls bulldog skulls no oh it's horrible what

they've done to them through selective breeding just slowly slowly just shove their [ __ ] skull it's all twisted where their sinuses are like non-existent they're their their whole face is just smooshed in so we can't really complain about the snoring well I mean we did it to them they used to be wolves yeah yeah yeah they used to be a wolf yeah i uh I told you about that man crush that I had last time that unkillable soldier guy and uh it sort of sent me down a rabbit hole fell in love with stories

of crazy bastards from history so I found this other dude called Ao Kovenan oh I've heard of that guy the Finnish soldier yeah so he is out on patrol with a bunch of Finnish soldiers small group and they come upon a Soviet force way bigger than they are they can't fight them so they have to flee as they're fleeing they're skiing away through the snow and the force is way bigger ammo is at the front and he's trailblazing trying to break free from this group but he can't go fast enough if they get caught they're

going to be captured or killed or worse so he needs to speed up he doesn't know how he's carrying the entire patrols supply of pervertin now pervertin was a German miracle drug that was used to keep soldiers awake during the war meth it's otherwise known Yep as methamphetamine and uh he decided I mean you might think this this wasn't just any normal meth right this was pharmaceutical-grade wartime human horsepower right it was the most intense so you might think tolerating the dose could be a good idea uh there's a rumor that apparently it had melted

in his pocket but whatever he did he took 30 people's worth he took 30 soldiers worth of meth the entire packet just ate the entire packet whoa unsurprisingly he manages to break away from the pursuing Soviets and he leads his group away so they they chill out on the far side once they're finally free and they notice that Amos's behaving a little bit oddly and he seems to be a danger to himself and to them so they take his ammo out of his rifle and they take his knife off him and they're sort of putting

stuff away in the pack they turn around and he's gone like [ __ ] where's ammo gone he skis for 63 miles on his own just skis away doesn't really know what he's doing he's in this sort of fever dream thing lays down goes to sleep wakes up the next day no idea where he is doesn't know where his group is doesn't know where the squadron is doesn't know where he is immediately sees a Soviet soldier over the far side raises his rifle click [ __ ] they took my ammo hulls the rifle at this

Soviet soldier and he explodes in a cloud of white dust turns out that it wasn't a Soviet soldier it was a tree branch with snow on it and that he's actually hallucinating so he's in a fullon fever dream now whoa oh imagine this Soviet soldier throws the the gun at him he explodes he's like "Fuck okay I need to I need to find my squadron how am I going to get back to them?" So he decides to just try and navigate around for a couple of hours and he sees him over the far side sees

a fire and he sees his group over the far side it's way far away so he skis for another two hours turns out that it wasn't his squadron it was more Soviet soldiers so he just skis straight through the middle of the camp all of these guys immediately chase after him but there's no chat like he's the [ __ ] LeBron James of meth right you're not you're not catching this guy so he goes straight through again second night finds a hut finds a wooden cabin in the middle of the the snow decides to set

a fire but he doesn't set it in the fireplace sets it in the middle of the wooden hut and throughout the night he sort of shuff shuffles himself further and further away for some reason his back's getting a little bit warm and he keeps on sort of shuffling himself further and further away he wakes up the next morning on the outside of the hut and it's completely burned down so he's burned the only the only bit the only structure that was going to give him any safety he's managed to burn it to the ground and

as he wakes up again sort of may have noticed that this is a recurring theme a Wolverine attacks him 65b Wolverine [ __ ] fangs yellow eyes attacks him so AO uses his knife kills this Wolverine fight to the death kills it but then he realizes I don't have a knife because my soldiers took it from me it was his compass which was the only thing he could use to navigate himself he'd smashed his compass to bits and then he looks down and it wasn't a Wolverine it was a tree log so he smashed his

compass on a tree log thinking it was a 65lb Wolverine he's still just deep deep in the hole continues to ski around he's trying to find someone trying to find any way marker that he can now with no way to navigate he's got no compass he's got no no weapon i mean the rifle that's got no ammunition in it he finds a Soviet forward operating base but you'll know this a lot of the time when armies left these behind they booby trapped the [ __ ] out of them they booby trapped everything so he walks

onto the middle of the Ford operating base immediately gets exploded by a landmine foot gets blown so he's laid there in the snow kind of waiting to die and one day later he's not dead so he's like "Well [ __ ] it i might as well try and get into the forward operating base." Gets up continues to go forward opens the door to the door there's no foot uh it's damaged it's severely damaged gets toward the front of the operating base opens the door there's another booby trap there that explodes him and the door like

20 yards backward he just lays there in the snow waiting to die he lays there for about five or six days waiting to die and he's melting uh snow in a little tin can thing like melting it so that he can drink a little bit of water he's got this door on him he thinks "Well someone's going to find me it's going to be the Soviets they're going to kill me or I'm just going to die." So he waits death doesn't come three Finnish soldiers come upon him of all of the different nationalities of all

of the different people three Finnish soldiers come upon him and he thinks "Finally after all of this time after being confused after getting lost I'm going to be saved." They say "It's okay we can take you back we can we can save you and take you back." And the front guy of the three fins steps on a landmine blows himself up and the other two are like "Hey man uh there's kind of a priority list here and you're at the bottom and he's at the top so we're going to take him back but just hold

on for another couple of days we'll come back and we'll save you." They go away and he just thinks "They're not going to find me again they're going to forget they're not going to be able to come back someone's going to kill me before I before they do or I'm going to die or whatever." But they do they managed to come back they managed to get him and they take him back to the medical bay 14 days was how long he'd been traveling around he'd moved 250 mi in this time his resting heart rate was

200 beats per minute and he weighed 98 lb he'd survived this entire time on meth water that he'd melted down into a tin cup a couple of pine nut things that he'd melted too and a single Siberian jay that he beat to death with his ski pole and just ate raw and he lived until he was in his 70s died in like 1989 and just lived a great life [ __ ] love that story dude this meth fueled Finnish maniac just like skiing through everything setting [ __ ] on fire hallucinating getting blown up twice

survived it meth's a hell of a drug maybe you should have done it maybe I should try now it's amazing what was accomplished on amphetamines i mean uh Norman Oler's book Blitz I loved those episodes that you did with Yeah incredible it's just an incredible story that they they literally went through Poland in three days just me out of their [ __ ] minds and the most the most meth was given to the people at the very front the people that driving the tanks they were the most cranked up because they'll drive the rest of

the group forward yeah and also they have to be the most psychotic cuz you're you're going to be the first people to encounter resistance uh so you need to be the most riskaverse oh the least risk averse least risk averse the most maniacal and murderous i wonder you know this kind of a debate around how much of Hitler's behavior was because of Hitler and how much was amplified worsened by the drugs that he was on that Theodore Morell that crazy kooky doctor that he had injecting him with bullsemen he's getting [ __ ] cocaine everything

yeah a lot of it had to do with that it had to i mean it had to it It's a factor it's a giant factor just how much of it what would have been like what would the wars have been like were there no math I mean that's probably the first amphetamine fueled war right was World War I fueled by empetamines did they have inetamines back then I mean I don't know what you do to get people to go over the top to certain death like how do you I mean you motivate people by everybody

else doing it I suppose it's sort of crowd behavior in that way well they know that meth was given to the kamicazi soldiers Mhm mhm which makes sense i mean what it's a great way to just going to fly that plane right into that boat you're like "What?" Having a great time sure yeah um no i'm going to fly to a [ __ ] island and hide uh during World War I militaries used cocaine and other drugs for medicinal purposes and to enhance performance so cocaine uh the British army sold cocaine containing pills under the

brand name for March that is the best branding in the world increase endurance suppress appetite 1960 British Army Council banned the unauthorized sale of psychoactive drugs does wonder why they did that they didn't want to win you don't want to have fun what are you the [ __ ] fun police wow that's pretty crazy yeah what they is it go pills is that what they give to fighter pilots yeah they give them something um British Army's pill number nine what's that pill number nine was just a strong laxative this is AI lies what was in

there specific medication used by British army during World War I primary ingredient pill number nine was colamel mercurious chloride a mercury based compound used to treat intestinal infections and other ailments oh okay just massive diarrhea pills i don't know how that's a performance enhancer yeah I don't think it is if your stomach h maybe just clear it out feel like on your feet i don't It seems like the cocaine be more effective to I'm I mean cocaine will make you go to the bathroom as well so for accomplish our goals yeah you know you said

uh you said before about sort of that self- authoring thing like taking control of my own life my friend George has got this uh great question where he says you're stuck in a third world prison and you get one phone call to ring somebody oh yeah to get you out who' you ring and that idea I love because it helps you to identify who the highest agency person is in your life who is it that can think on their feet that doesn't need permission to go and do anything that'll overcome obstacles that is this sort

of yeah permissionless reality bender right who would you call i don't know man that's a good question that's a really good question I'd have to really think about also I don't know anybody's number that's true yeah I guess can I Instagram DM them is that all right can I log in actually can you give me my funks i got two factor authentication on this is going to be really awkward is that all right can I I need to do that yeah i mean I would be tempted to ring Tim Kennedy i think he would probably

be quite high up on my list yeah he would help you a lot if I had access to my phone yeah dirty deeds done dirt cheap correct yeah i mean it might be a bit gratuitous i get I get the sense that he would take more pleasure in getting me out than would be necessary you know what I mean yeah probably yeah i don't know man that's got to be the worst place to be in the world foreign prison with no way to call somebody you know this is the criticism about these uh illegal aliens

that have been shipped off to what is it el Salvador is it El Salvador that they're they have the super prisons yeah I think that's we spoke about this last time that was just as they'd been created these football stadiums sized monstrosities they essentially got all the gang members off the streets and locked them up and dropped crime radically dropped violence radically they essentially said enough of this we're just going to go after all these gang members and lock them all up and the criticism about these uh deportes that were sending people over there we're

sending plane loads of people over there like what if you're in that group and you're not guilty of anything what if you're just a guy who came over here from Mexico and you're a tattoo artist us deports 250 alleged gang members to El Salvador despite court ruling to halt flights yeah there's a court ruling to halt the flights but here's the thing if they are gang members if they are trend trend or you know those gang members that Yeah if that if it's that's real then this all makes sense but the fear is that there's

going to be certain people that are rounded up in this that are are not guilty collateral damage right and then these poor people are going to be trapped in this El Salvador prison and no one's going to believe them that they're innocent it says it all that El Salvador has got a reputation for being so good at prison and law enforcement that they're [ __ ] importing people over there mhm and it's like oh we need to you said before if I've got a bad knee I want to go to the guy that looks after

the Lakers it's like you're the Lakers PT doc of the rehabilitation world it's not even rehabilitation I suppose just incarceration world yeah it's just incarceration and there's probably a financial incentive we probably pay them to house these prisoners but the question is are we sure like how many of these people are being accused of being gang members because maybe they tattoo gang members you know maybe they were caught up in a raid and maybe they are friends of gang members maybe there's an artist who happens to be an illegal or maybe they're someone who's working

on a construction site and they get rounded up and they get shipped over there you know that that's a legitimate question when you're uh arresting people and prosecuting people and your goal is to arrest people and prosecute people you do your best at that and the question is how many people get arrested and prosecuted that are innocent well in the real world what we know is quite a few quite a few i mean I do a lot of podcasts with my good friend Josh Dubin who's spent a considerable amount of his life helping innocent people

get out of jail that's his you know his main thing that he does is work with unjustly prosecuted people and you find the levels of corruption to be horrific the prosecutors DAs the the amount of corrupt judges it's shocking it's shocking when you lay the facts of these cases out like the Ohio 4 these people that were in jail proven that one of them could not have possibly been there when the crime is committed and still was in there for 30 years um the actual guy who was the informant came out and said that he

was told to say all these things it's all lies then was told when they were going to bring it to trial again you will be arrested for telling lies now you will either be arrested you will either be arrested because you're lying now or you'll be arrested for telling lies previously so he then he won't This is like that thing you know uh if she thinks she's not a witch and if she floats she is right right right right yeah yeah it's crazy it's crazy and then there's the the game aspect of it the game

aspect of it is victory right if you're a prosecutor your your job is to arrest people and prosecute them and convict them that's your job that's what your your your self-worth who you are as a prosecutor your reputation is based on success yeah your your record your perfect record of this many convictions and it's the same with cops unfortunately a lot of cops are their their whole thing is making arrest making arrests it's a shame isn't it you know you talked about the fire service earlier on three emergency services fire police and ambulance when the

fire service turns up anywhere I don't think that there's any issues people I I don't know whether how often firefighters find themselves up against a crowd that's unhappy maybe I guess if it was a riot of some kind perhaps but for the most part it's a hero that's coming to save the cat stuck in a tree the house that's on fire the baby that's upstairs like hooray well done for you yeah a medical service turns up and somebody's really badly hurt or somebody's broken some kid at Yeah some kid at a sports match has broken

their leg thank you so much please look after them look after them and then the police done it and the reaction could not be more different and I don't know i I I understand that there's a particular type of control that cops have that sort of firefighters and and EMTs firefighters and EMTs are doing stuff exclusively sort of in service of others whereas cops are doing something that sort of subtracts away but it must be tough like if you're a good cop especially now especially after the last few years it must be hard because you

want to feel proud about your job it's unbelievably hard but it's also very hard to get people that are good people to sign up for it now because they don't want that abuse i wonder if that's been reversed over the last few years i mean I mean I bet it has in certain jurisdictions in certain areas where they've valued cops and you know this whole defund the police thing was just so wild it was so crazy to see that people would think that that would be a good idea and even to espouse it publicly to

erode public confidence in law enforcement just at large you notice that that's largely dropped off now no one's really talking about didn't work it would have had the opposite effect crime escalated and the people that lived in the communities wanted the cops back in the areas that were the worst affected as well it's a luxury belief yeah it's something that's held by the upper classes that only impact the lower classes yeah and it's also a thing that the political establishment will use as a a tool to align you with them you know people will say

it like Kla Harris in 2019 was saying I mean defund the police we should defund the police which is just crazy to say you need to fund them more train them better you know they they need training the way military groups need training constantly consistently and you know they're encountering horrific things i mean my friends who have been cops and you know and have served overseas will tell you most of them will tell you that they suffered more PTSD as cops than they have even in the military yeah depending upon your service depending on what

you had to do but a lot of them it's just like every day you're seeing some nightmarish situation horrific violence domestic violence child abuse murdered kids you're seeing so much horror and then your version of reality is is based on your experiences your experiences are horrific every day do you think you'd be able to switch off if you had a job like that you'd be able to partition compartmentalize i wouldn't even ever guess that I could pull it off i I wouldn't even guess i I don't think anybody even understands what that even means unless

you've shown up and seen some guy's brains blown out all over the curb for for nothing for some stupid argument about nothing you know when you you've seen some woman get shot in front of her kid by the husband you know you you you have no idea no one has any idea you you don't know unless you experience it and then you have to go home to your own children go home to your own wife and you're just you your brain is on fire you know your your soul is just in agony we were we're

watching a video the other day of this guy who had to shoot this guy this cop this guy was something was wrong it was clearly mentally unstable was yelling was you know telling everybody what he was going to do they tased him that didn't work then he's charging at this cop and the cop shoots him and then the cop's sobbing and shaking and his partner's telling him to breathe how to breathe and he's just probably the first person he ever had to kill it's horrible it's horrible and that's that's he succeeded he's he stopped a

a threat and he you know it was justified this person was trying to kill him what about pulling people over and the windows are all tinted and they won't roll down the windows you're standing there vulnerable it could be a shotgun inches away from your face and you have no idea and they've all seen all these videos where people get gunned down you pull people over all a sudden the back window explodes with machine gun fire i mean they they live with that every day they live with that fear every day and then they have

to hear this rhetoric everywhere of defund the police and calling cops pigs and it's crazy it's crazy and it it it ultimately destroys the fabric of our society and you know there's plenty of evidence that cops have done bad things it's not excusing the bad cops there's bad plumbers there's bad car mechanics there's bad everything and there's people that shouldn't be cops and when you see a video of someone who shouldn't be cop shouldn't be a cop and is you know on their last nerve and snaps at someone or overreacts at someone or or brutalizes

someone totally unnecessarily it gives you a very distorted perception of the average encounter that a person has with police officers because most of the interactions that people have with police officers are fine most of them the vast majority no one gets hurt no one goes to jail most of them you know but you see the ones that go sideways and then you think these are what cops are doing they're out there trying to kill people well that's one of the disadvantages I suppose of the way the algorithms work that edge cases that are unbelievable and

shocking are the ones that catch the most fire right and what it creates is it moves the fringe to the middle because most of what you see by design is the stuff that's the most outlandish and then it gets used as a political tool correct you mentioned about uh Biden and Camala what what do you think you do if you're either of them now like Trump's just running ragged flying high having all of this fun like what are they doing like what do you do when you've lost a two people have lost a campaign in

the space of six months i don't know tim Tim Walsh is out there talking again he say he could fight any Trump supporter yeah he said he'd kick their ass and they're they're scared of him because he could fix a truck like it was they're threatened by his masculinity i know how to fix a truck that's what he said like do you i bet you don't the lady doth protest too much i bet you don't i fear i I bet if I bring a broken truck to you and a bag of tools you're [ __

] that was the That was kind of the redress right that was the attempt it was like we're going to the the symbol of masculinity on the left is going to be Tim Waltz it was Aragon aragon from Lord of the Rings and Tim Waltz yeah it's so crazy i just don't I think they're lost i mean they're also lost in that they can't control the narrative anymore i think when they had control of Twitter and they had control of all essentially all of social media and pre-Trump they had the reigns like firmly held they

were in control of the public narrative if you strayed from that you will be kicked off social media you'll be banned from YouTube you were I mean and for things that were factually correct like the lab leak theory is now finally being embraced by the New York Times the New York Times I don't know if you saw that article the other day they said we we were misled like bro you misled us we were misled by ourselves they There was a big bed in the New York Times that has people up in arms because they're

like "Fucking duh you're finally Did you do you know where it is i could send it to you i saved it because it's so ridiculous it's so ridiculous i was like "What are you saying how are you saying that?" It was you guys it wasn't just some random people that did that um do you find it anywhere Jamie i know i saved it which was it called uh it was the New York Times saying that we were misled there was a big op-ed in the New York Times i saw people spreading i never saw the

link yeah I read it it I read it for like the first couple chapters but it's all duh that the whole thing is just [ __ ] duh god where did I save it i saved too many things i'm a hoarder digital hoarder i'm a digital hoarder do you know why that happens you know why people hoard stuff the interesting way that their brains work so no um looking around this table you're able to discern between stuff that is useful and stuff that isn't useful there it is we were badly misled about the event that

changed our lives who you badly misled by do you think you guys had a factor in [Music] that since scientists began playing around with dangerous pathogens in laboratories the world has experienced four or five pandemics depending on how you count one of them the 1977 Russian flu almost certainly sparked by a research mishap some Western scientists quickly suspected the odd virus has had resided in a lab freezer for a couple of decades but they kept mostly quiet for fear of ruffling feathers yet in 2020 when people started speculating that a lab accident might have spar

been the spark that started the CO 19 pandemic they were treated like cooks and cranks in this newspaper many public health officials and prominent by the way not by this person i'm not blaming this person um many public health officials and prominent scientists dismissed the idea as a conspiracy theory i wonder why they did that i wonder if there's an email paper trail that's already been established there is insisting that a virus had emerged from animals in a seafood market in Wuhan China and when a nonprofit called Ecoalth Alliance lost a great grant becau well

lost a grant because it was planning to conduct risky research into bat viruses with the Wuhan Institute of Viology research that if conducted with lack safety standards could have resulted in a dangerous pathogen leaking out into the world no fewer than 77 Nobel laureates and 31 scientific societies lined up to defend the organization yeah they defend themselves i mean it's appeal to authority and they [ __ ] us and you guys were a part of it by the way that newspaper was a big part of it big part of calling the lab leak theory racist

which was really kooky it's strange that everything is concretized on the internet for the rest of time yeah you I mean people can go back and try and like retrograde remove stuff that happened but there's always internet archive is fantastic for this yeah for the most part you could find it and you're inspired so how how is it that so many U-turns regardless of what it is regardless of which side it is the sort of permanent state of amnesia that everybody's in there was this uh this WhatsApp message you ever have one of those WhatsApp

messages where it says forwarded many times yes at the top and you're like "Oh this is going to be good." Right and uh Yeah it's just it's just an advert it's just a banner um forwarded many times and it was a single squatty a guy in um fatigues walking down a street in London and a screenshot I think of a text saying that someone had said that the army was going to be deployed on the streets of London to keep everybody in the house through martial law that this was how intense that the lockdowns were

going to get and it was going to happen on this particular day it goes crazy on Facebook crazy on WhatsApp never happened and like all of the people that shared that that were adamant that created all of these stories and and and theories around it like no one ever actually went to go and call those people out about what it was that they'd pushed all of the people that were adamant global health passports the vaccine passport that's going to come that's going to happen all you know I mean the unfalsifiable version of it is because

we knew that it was going to happen they weren't able to do it so actually we were the righteous resistance in doing the thing and the same with whether it's lab leak theory whether it's Joe Biden's mental decline no matter what it is you can put this position out there it's [ __ ] fortified on the internet for the rest of time and after long enough you're like I don't remember that you know you're like [ __ ] the most gaslighty partner that you've ever been with i'm not Are you sure yeah I don't think

I don't think I did say that i did I do this like [ __ ] fugazy like switcheroo some lexical Brazilian jiu-jitsu yeah and I don't have to I don't have to atone for my previous sins anymore well I think in this case you have an individual journalist who wrote this story i do not know the history of this individual journalist but what they said is accurate and important so it's good that the New York Times has this come to Jesus moment where they lay out hey the conspiracy theories were all true that's what the

title should be the conspiracy theories were all true yeah the shot wasn't effective yeah there were therapeutics that were available that were dismissed and that bad studies were created in order to make sure that people weren't taking these drugs because we needed the emergency use authorization and the only way you can get that is if you have no treatment so you had to rely on one thing and that one thing was the vaccine and they all participated in it how much do you think uh New York Times with articles like that uh Bezos coming out

recently and saying that there's this sort of balance thing that he's got going on at the Washington Post uh Zuckerberg's recent sort of pivot with regards to factchecking on Meta platforms how many of those do you think would have happened if there hadn't been a Trump victory in November how much of this is blowing with the wind do you think most of it's blowing with the wind it's the society society's decided we're done you know this was Trump getting elected this was Elon buying Twitter this was uh you know and this is the blowback that

you're seeing these organized uh protests and vandalism on Tesla dealerships and keying PE they're encouraging people people are there's like there's so many videos of people just smashing Teslas carving swastigas into the side of Teslas because sentry mode these cars all have sentry mode so you can leave your Tesla parked and has HD video of everything that's happening all around it and it uploads it so you can just see who did what yeah yeah yeah you can watch it that's why all these videos are out the all these videos are out people extracted them from

their cars the video isn't published by the riers the video is published by the victims exactly [ __ ] yeah and there's tons of people that have been arrested for this now tons of people i don't know what I mean i guess it's a way of trying to protest against some person that you don't like yeah but it's funded that's what's crazy and it's all because what Elon is doing with US Aid and what he's doing with Doge the Department of Government Efficiency is finding a lot of inefficiency waste and fraud most of it he

believes is waste some of it is fraud and it's a lot of there's a lot of money that's going in directions it shouldn't be going and then there's stuff that's legal that probably shouldn't be legal like non-government organizations doing the bidding of the government because they're funded by the government there's certain things the government is not allowed to do but a non-government organization NGO can do and what's an example of that well regime change like the a lot of what this money is going to it goes to foreign countries where we have an interest in

having the people that are running that country on our side or we don't like them and we want to fund the rebels and so you can fund the people you can fund them through all sorts of organizations where you hide and mask the money and you move it around and you have essentially blank checks and you can just funnel billions of dollars all over the world with no accounting mike Benz is like the most prophetic person of all time oh my god i mean he talked about it on this podcast before Doge and before us

Aid and everybody was like "Oh conspiracy theorists and this and that and this guy." So he used to work for the State Department what the [ __ ] does he know apparently he knows everything he knows all of it and he can spit it out his recall is incredible and you know that guy's got to be [ __ ] terrified because he's out there exposing he's he's essentially the guy who led Elon to the coffin where the vampire sleeps like this is where it is it must be an odd situation to be in because most

of the time the level of scrutiny that you're under and the level of security threat that's likely is kind of it goes in line with um status or fame and that also goes in line with maybe some resources too so as people get uh more likely to be a target they're also more able to perhaps be able to protect themselves with uh living in a nicer house gated community yeah having security and stuff like that but this is one of those weird situations where your knowledge your particular insight makes you so uniquely vulnerable or such

such a heavy target but it hasn't come with the concordant increase in status and resources that would allow you to be able to actually protect yourself right and this is I guess the crisis of a whistleblower yes yes whistleblower and investigative journalists yeah i mean this is why Julian Assange spent so much time in jail i was just about to bring up Russ yes uh have you you guys must have tried to reach out to Yeah we reached out but he doesn't really want to talk to anybody right now which is totally understandable he's got

an open invitation if he ever just says "Okay I'd like to talk whenever." Yeah I'd love to sit down and talk to him you know I'd love to find the real story because the the narrative and the you know the documentary did docu drama that was made about the Silk Road and what he did you know I'd like to know how much of that is [ __ ] because I think a lot of it probably was you know I think they were trying to set him up for sure and uh I think there's probably some

things that he was accused of that aren't accurate you know I'd like to know isn't it funny that we always think about conspiracy conspiracy theories all of this stuff is always being in the past and that when something is unfolding right now I wonder how much stuff is being ignored by the media but will be studied by historians i wonder wonder what that what would be that's one of my my friends favorite questions to ask what is being ignored by the media but will be studied by historians i certainly think that uh smartphone use will

be one of those you know there was that um five deathbed regrets of the dying um I wish I'd kept in touch with my friends i wish I hadn't worked so much i wish I'd allowed myself to be happy i wish uh I'd lived the life I wanted and not the life that other people had for me blah blah i would bet everything that I'm worth that within the next couple of decades I wish I'd spent less time on my phone would be one of those no doubt 100% well your your time is so valuable

and how do you have five extra hours a day well look at your screen time and it'll save five hours we were talking about this before we got started that you have the same number of hours that somebody did a 100 years ago but the average amount of time that Americans spend on screens is eight hours at the moment the average time that they eight eight on screens all screens the average time they spend asleep is 6.5 so people are sleeping for one and a half hours less than they spend their time on their phone

and and what are you getting out of it well nothing tangible it's so hard it's so hard it's so addicting it's designed to be addicting i mean you've had Tristan Harris on here you know the way the variable schedule reward that tempts you that keeps you there you don't know what's going to happen this is so interesting i had um the guy who wrote uh Stuart Russell he wrote the original AI textbook it's translated into 70 languages around the world he taught me this really interesting thing about how the algorithms work so we know the

job of the algorithm is to predict what you want to click on right so what it wants to do is get better at working out what Joe likes on his YouTube feed or on his Instagram feed or whatever but there's actually two ways that it can become more accurate at being able to predict what you're going to click on the first one is to be better at providing you with things that you'll select the second one is nudging your preferences so that you are more easy to predict because if you just give something the optimizing

function of cause Joe to click on a thing and stick about like clickthrough and watch time if you get it to do that it'll just find any route it's not bounded by and you must make sure that it's his existing preferences you can't change his preferences but this is one of the reasons I think why polarization has increased not just that edge cases get used it pushes people further apart they get put off into their silos echo chambers recursive stuff blah blah blah i think a big part of it is just the algorithms find it

easier to be able to predict you which gives them an incentive now it's it's not like a conscious incentive but it gives you this incentive to be pushed out to the sides and there's this worry about um I learned about this idea called knowingness so polarization everyone thinks it's a big deal and I think it is it's a big problem but knowingness is like a an uncurious intellectual insulation so people believe that they know the answer to the question before the question has even been asked i know what the outcome is i know what the

answer is before you've even asked me the question and what's interesting about this uh epidemic of knowingness we have at the moment is if the problem is poor information you can fix it typically with better information i will give you a better quality of information but if the problem is knowingness you are insulated from ever updating your beliefs because no amount of existing new information is going to actually help you there's this really cool quote that said uh most people think that they are thinking when all they are doing is rearranging their prejudices and I

think uh they explains why the culture war is so boring culture war is largely super boring because both sides act as if the facts are already settled whilst not agreeing on the facts right you know what I mean yeah yeah so how is it that we've got to the stage where people's their their prejudices just get moved around until they can come up with the outcome that they already wanted before you even ask the question about the thing that you're talking about that's the situation we end up with and I think it explains why I

think it explains why the the culture wars feel so sy and nothing really ever seems to move like it's not moved forward it goes at such a snail's pace the news is operating at light speed and the way that we move forward with our conceptual understanding of the world is moving forward at a snail's pace well how are these two things happening together well it's technological advance right technological advance is so much greater and faster than biological advance this is the scariest thing that leads us down the road to AI is that as we are

so limited in our biological ability to evolve biological evolution takes so long cultural evolution takes so long whereas technological evolution is almost instantaneous and we are being overrun by this thing that's captivated our attention i was talking about this the other I was like imagine if there was a drug that made you stare at your hand for 6 hours a day he'd be like "Keep me the [ __ ] away from that drug." But that's what your phone's doing mostly you're getting nothing occasionally you get a funny meme you know if I looked at the

amount of time that I spend online given day and how much of it is really fascinating to me well every now and then you get a story like that story about the whole universe might be inside of a black hole and then I'm on a pyramid so there's this interesting insight about that there's a few things you'll get but I kind of feel like you will get those if you're offline just by other people being online they'll send it to you like you you you're almost better off you don't need to be the one doing

the the first pass scouring exactly you your your your resources are better utilized by not doing that did you see that it was a guy who removed people's phones from their hands was a photographer who went around I think it was maybe New York City and he took photos of people and then uh CGIed the phones out you know you're talking about you'd imagine if there was this thing and it made you stare at your hand he actually did it so it shows just how absurd it is you know you've got an entire train carriage

on the subway on the underground and everyone's staring at their hand and it's just people staring down at their hands like this and it it needs that to sort of throw the absurdity into it but then on the flip side if you don't live with your parents you're in a different city you work a job that you're not that enamored by maybe your health's good maybe it's not so good you're a little bit worried about stuff you're kind of bored a lot of the time you need to be sedated oh there we go oh wow

all those people just sitting there staring oh that's so crazy go back Jamie go back up to that one as a kid wow it wasn't that long this was 2015 in 2012 I started trying to take pictures of people in public looking at their phones and it wasn't that common then so it wasn't that Well that's like when social media kicked off in the beginning no one was on it you'd see it it's like most people weren't even on Twitter they're like "Why would I be on that?" And you know people were using it to

promote things and then they started using it to elevate their profile and then people became influencers and once people became influencers and once people like a a regular person you get a couple of million followers then all a sudden you get sponsors and you that's your job now respect yeah and fame mhm i remember when I was living in LA it was right around the time that a lot of these um god what was it back then what was the thing that was like It wasn't Tik Tok vine vine yes there's Yeah yeah it was

Vine vine influencers were the first and they were famous so they'd go to restaurants they'd be like "That's blah blah blah." Like "Who's that?" Like "Oh he's got 35 million Vine subscribers." Like "What?" It was bizarre because you seen just regular people that would do antics or cause scenes or do something to get attention and they developed large followings wasn't Isn't it the number one job that primary school kids want is to be a YouTuber or an influencer yeah uh well they all watch them they all watch people eat food and open up toys and

it's like very weird it's very weird stuff because no one would have ever predicted that that would be something would captivate people's attention on a television right there was no unboxing shows on television but yet unboxing shows on the internet are huge like people get sucked into the most mundane things someone opening up package oh look at this here's the new phone yeah unboxing in some ways I actually think is quite satisfying i quite like watching the people that have got the here's the new MacBook M4 thing and it's shot all nice and MKBHD you

know like watching watching him do his stuff is is really great but but he also does a comprehensive analysis of the tech it's not just here's me playing with a new Mac no it's an it's an he's doing a review of state-ofthe-art you like where where is technology currently and what's what's the best version i think uh when it comes to desiring a life looking at okay what is it that I want you need to be very very careful about what the process is in order to get the outcome that you want because if you

want the outcome but you're not prepared to live the life needed to get it you're just asking for disappointment yeah uh well said my friend talks about Call of Duty versus War and he talks you know you think about this is what um going on holiday to a place is and this is what having to live there is like you can go to somewhere and go it was lovely for a week we were in the Congo yeah it was so nice but you go what's it like if you can't leave it's literally the difference between

being camping going camping or being homeless right one is an imposition and the other one is a choice and I think that more young kids need to realize what the reality of being an influencer is like it's not just going to the seells and uploading a selfie or getting I don't know what they do like Play-Doh [ __ ] jelly new video games that's not what it's like look at the Twitch streamers look at most of the Twitch streamers they have got they are like the [ __ ] grunts of the content creation they are

factories of content eight hours a day five days a week just straight just [ __ ] stream of consciousness someone put something in the chat and you go "Oh let's watch this thing let's watch that thing." It's like it is it's not if you do not want the life that you need to get in order to get the outcome that you're looking for you need to be very very careful about because the reality is war it's not Call of Duty it's the same thing with being in a band it's like I love the idea of

traveling the world and playing to these big crowds and doing all the rest of it's like okay you're going to have to live in a van with four other sweaty dudes for like half a decade first if you're lucky at the bet and that's if you've managed to break through you're going to have to spend so long a decade learning to play guitar you're going to have to write songs that never see the day of light you're going to have to do all of this stuff and you have no idea if it's going to work

there's this um I think about the gap from where people are in a place that they don't want to be until they get to a place that they do and I think of it like a lonely chapter so everybody that has got from a place where they don't want to be to one where they are there's a point where they they're so different that they can't resonate with their old set of friends right but they're not yet sufficiently developed that they've created their new set of friends m and there's this temptation to go back to

the old patterns the old ways of thinking and this I did this live show uh in London last year my first big headline show at the event in Apollo in London it was pretty cool and this idea I think was one that really resonated with a lot of people because everybody's trying to grow and there is an incentive for you to stay in the same place because not that many people grow most people don't change they make little changes you know they'll cut their hair or they'll lose 5 pounds or you know they'll switch from

one company to another but how many people do you know that have lost 50 pounds or move to a different country or have genuinely changed the way that they see the world it's pretty rare it's not that common and we are such mimemetic creatures we're so shaped by the people around us that we can't help but be tempted you know you're going to have to do something if you want to go from where you are to where you want to be you're going to have to do something that makes you more different more weird more

easy to be mocked especially if you come from a country like the UK where I'm from being different's not particularly celebrated in that way it's the sort of thing that's quite easily mo there's a big culture of piss taking and if you start what are you talking to people on the internet for that's [ __ ] weird like that's that's stupid that's not going to work why are you going to do that so if you don't have that level of enthusiasm there is no support around you to tell you that the thing that you're trying

to do the the taking up the martial art why you why are you training this taekwond do [ __ ] like you know [ __ ] six nights a week why are you coaching all of these moms and all of these like old guys on how to do Tai Chi or whatever why are you doing that well because maybe I'm sort of pulled to it and there is this temptation to go back to your old ways of thinking go back to the road that you already know how it's going to end and I get the

sense that this is not a bug it is a feature it's a part of moving from a place that you do not want to be to one that you do and for the most part you actually need to live through this lonely chapter and you look at it and you go "Well the [ __ ] Rocky montage was 3.5 minutes for me it's been five years where's the where's the championship ring?" You know what I mean i haven't won the fight where's Apollo Creed none of this stuff's happened the thing that I wish more stories

talked about if you watch it in the movies yeah sure there's ups and downs in the journey of the athlete that's going to change his life around and and get the girl but his self-belief never waivers right he makes the decision and it's one straight shot typically and there'll be some challenges but he'll get there his self-belief never waivers i don't think that that's what the experience of doing personal growth is like at all in my experience it's you're just swimming in uncertainty and and fear and a lack of belief that it's even going to

happen you don't even have the promise of glory on the other side of it i don't even know if this is going to be worth it and I'm [ __ ] doing Sam Harris's waking up meditation app and I'm journaling on a morning i'm going to the gym why am I eating meat and fruit does this even work like you know you're doing all of this stuff trying scrabbling like a guy in a [ __ ] well trying to find a handhold and if you don't have a good community of people that are also doing

that you're on your own and this is most people I think most people's experience because if most people don't change you are going to be an outlier if you're somebody who does change i think about um personal growth kind of like a a rocket ship taking off and as you take off you've got a particular velocity that you're moving at and what you want is to find other people moving at the same velocity as you but the quicker that you move the fewer people are going to be like you right so some people will be

ahead of you and you're in this lonely chapter and then you catch up to them and then oh no and this isn't you know some comment on people that work on themselves are like morally better or worse than anybody else but it's just a stark sort of fact about you you you talk to people and you resonate with people that are at the same level of life as you are and that kind of makes sense you have things to discuss you're encountering the same sorts of challenges whether it's in terms of your self-worth or your

wealth or your relationship status or all of these things birds of a feather right and you know one of the I guess difficult realizations of people who want to change their life is that if you do it well you might have to go through a period where you let go of all of your friends but the really bad realization is if you do it really well you might have to do that multiple times throughout your life you find a group of people finally I've landed after oh that period where I was I was on my

own and I didn't really understand oh [ __ ] i'm still going i've over and I I now need You mean I got to do it again i've got to do it again i just thought that I'd found my group and I've got to do it again this lonely chapter thing is uh it's a big deal and I think that it explains why so few people make big changes because the temptation is always going to be to just go back to what's normal go back to what I know and um it's why you know America

for all that it's a horrible cis hetropatriarchal superructure that's misogynistically keeping everybody down it's an enthusiastic and sort of excitable country and you guys have kind of got permanent firstline cocaine energy about everything and for me it seems to be a a real infusing environment encourages me to do things helps me to take risks it's either that or get kicked in the head a lot and um I just love it i I I love the fact that it makes me feel confident in doing difficult things and uh yeah I wish that more people had that

community around them i think largely Reddit is just a uh website filled with people who couldn't find other people to talk about their niche in their hometown like this particular Oh there's a lot of that right warhammer 40k version or whatever yeah um but yeah it's it's difficult and when you get to the stage where you're faced with some personal growth decision you're always going to have to make this value exchange of do I want to move forward on my own or do I want to go back with my friends it's a good point man

chris always great to talk to you brother really appreciate your insight you're a very brilliant guy and you're always you're fun to talk to i appreciate you too man thanks for having um the courage to put all your thoughts out there and I love what you do i love your show and uh you're awesome man you're awesome too dude thanks for being here every time that you bring me on every time that we get to speak I really appreciate it so thank you my pleasure all right bye everybody [Music] [Applause] [Music]