Carl Rogers entrevista Peter Ann (1985)

now we have okay there's one thing I did want to say now we're coming up to this choice of the volunteer client I would and I'm sorry I should have said this before it would be helpful if you had could just note down a few things about yourself a few statements about yourself on a piece of paper with your name if you intend to come up and volunteer as a client for this interview now we should have given you a little more time for that but maybe you can do it in a hurry so we will take a break and those who are willing to volunteer for the interview can me truce over in this corner and we'll get together again 15 minutes at the outside 10 minutes start back okay I don't know what might be of concern to you but I certainly be very glad to hear well my problem kinda is old and new together I am lost a set of twins about two and a half years ago and for me that was the first pregnancy and working on my career and whatnot I kind of put pregnancy aside thinking when I'm done with my career I'll have children and so that first pregnancy didn't work out very well and with my age I'm 35 now as I'm getting older and I've been trying for two and a half years to become pregnant and have not done so successfully I've kind of you know started to feel one like a failure and I think it came from once I read a poem and the poem said that to have a child is to have your only chance of making a miracle with God and I never looked at it that way before I always thought pregnancy was the pits you were fat you're ugly and I didn't enjoy my pregnancy at all and when I did start to enjoy it that's when I lost the twins and so now I'm upset that I can't become pregnant and the and but right now at this very minute I could be and that's scary to me too it's really a sort of a double problem that you would like pregnancy to be something you would enjoy and yet when you began to enjoy you lost the twins and now it really is a confusing situation is that wanting a child very much wanting that miracle not being sure well I think I'm sure that I want that and I'm I'm more afraid that if I am pregnant this very minute that there's loss down the road that's where the past comes in it might end in tragedy again right and it's it's one of those points now where every month I wait to see if I'm pregnant every month I'm just disappointed that's a recurring issue right it never seems to get any better night oh I don't really discuss it with anybody I don't talk to my husband about it because he has the pain from the past as well so it's something it really has been quite bound up in you we haven't felt free to talk about it right and and I guess I questioned myself in a lot of ways too is it if I had made attempts earlier would it have been easier should I have laid aside my career a little earlier and tried to become pregnant yeah because now I mean when most of my friends are having children and raising them I have a job to go to that's fine and it you know four or five years ago to me you know I'm out in the world I'm making money and I'm doing a good job but now there's a lot of things that I don't have nobody to leave anything to and it's it's a sad thing christmas is coming it's probably on my mind more I would have had somebody that's two and a half I would head to little kids two and a half years old and so your estimate did I make a mistake yeah that's I guess that's that's a scary thought to think that your whole life has been a mistake along the way did I make a very grave error in not having made the attempt sooner right and and I look at it that more and more things seem to play on it the pressure from my family I'm an only child so consequently my my mother always with you know why don't they have a grandchild she has a terminal illness now and could possibly die I mean it could go on forever for a long time but you know as if I haven't given them what they like to but there's a lot of pressure too you must have a child you must yeah and I but I guess I there's I think of so many things that go on with that with me it's I I believe in you either win or you lose and to me right now I've lost and that quicker you feel there's winner who's and you have lost yeah to me to me I always play games I do things to win and in the pregnancy you know I wanted to win to have a child and instead I lost and I don't like to play things that I cannot so that's one game a very important game that you feel you lost yeah and you're the kind that likes to win definitely definitely I I like to make people happy as well and I know my husband my parents all of those other people would want you know a child and offspring a grandchild as well as I would like one you know it's not like I'm just trying to do it for somebody else I think there's that part of me that says you know this is normal this is proper you lost twins how can you replace what can you do to have that so you'd like to not only satisfy yourself but all these other people too I think everybody would be happy in the long run of me especially it just means a tremendous lot yeah I don't think there's anything that I could if I if I cannot have children I guess I would have to deal with that but I don't think there's anything I can replace that with I don't think career used to be extremely important to me and now that's not the ultimate thing so if you don't have a child that really leaves a terrible gap yeah a very big void for me big boy right I you know I have a very loving nice wonderful husband and I care about him a great deal but there's that extra thing that we could share together you know out of the love that we do have and somehow I feel cheated I feel cheated out of something that would enrich your marriage as well as you and like I said with the possibility of being pregnant right now there's just it's like I don't want I don't sleep I'm telling a whole crowd of people this but I don't really want to tell anybody because I'm afraid of you know of the loss and yet it bothers me tremendously I couldn't understand that it's kind of thing about mentioning it might might be superstitiously wrong or something I mean - well that and I guess if I am pregnant I would like it to be nobody knows until they can really really tell and it may be it's gonna last that so that in many ways it's something you still want to keep to yourself then yet find yourself telling a lot of people as far as you know as far as telling anybody my possible condition that that I haven't done and I don't know I said something I'm not gonna tell my parents I don't even think I'll tell my husband for quite a while so it really is something highly personal and kept within and easier to talk about the strangers than it is to people who mean a lot to you yeah because people that mean a lot to me can also end the hurt again mm-hmm and don't want to lead them on or than now they do another treasure no not like the best very hard tonight I don't know I guess maybe I should just see what comes of it you know except if something good comes fantastic if something bad comes then I haven't heard again nobody else is if you keep it to yourself that if it all works out and great for everybody there's a tragedy again that's for you tonight I guess maybe I think that I have some guilt left over from the last time I think whenever you you know even though it's a premature birth if you lose a child I think you play some guilt on yourself and I don't know I guess I just do wondering if I shouldn't have done certain things and whatnot could I have made a difference could have done something differently right and I try to you know in my head say no you you had a less schedule than you usually have you it you were more calm you were resting more I say all those things myself logically but that's it when you go through the loss there's and there's no answer then you're kind of stuck with well I was the keeper and didn't do well so your mind says you were doing as well as you could possibly do but something in you says well maybe maybe you could have done something you were the keeper and you did lose yeah and I think that's part of that though is the reason that I I still want to have the child not only do I want one but I want to fight back and say hey you know this doesn't happen to me yeah and see then it comes again into things like I've always had everything I wanted you know I was an only child I was probably a little spoiled I had a job I had a career I've had money I have a house you know I have a decent marriage I have all the things that sometimes people make comments about of oh now she has everything and that one thing that I wanted I didn't get so would look as though no you did everything not quite not the important thing you want no which then turns things into turn me into being the failure aspect not doing well of being the failure yeah so that's some level to yourself you're a failure yeah but I suppose all I can do is keep working you had it maybe of course then there's the biological time clock and so not everything is in my corner that's right and usually I can work on things or put things in perspective and do things that I have some control and this is something I don't have control of that's right there's some things you can't manage you can't manipulate get control no not this one at least I don't see what I can and you're the kind of person who is accustomed to controlling things getting things your way yes hasn't worked out bad so far except for that aspect in a lot of ways that's worked fine but not here and I I there is no way to have the control I mean I don't know if it's God or fate or whatever is gonna make that determination but it's it's out of my control I think it's less it's out of my control even even though I have different kinds of you know medical support that say that I'm healthy and normal and everything is fine and you know I go to a specialist at this time so they can try to make things work better nothing seems to be working right anyway so you know then I'm back inside myself again with well what's wrong with me why isn't this working how hard can it be that seems to be evidence to you there must be something wrong with me yeah there's nobody else's body that's not functioning correctly it's mine so this buddy of yours is something that in this respect you really can't control no and I mean I and I do everything to even try you know I do everything the doctor says I eat the right foods I try to stay in halfway decent shape so that I'm healthy and even that with the loss nobody could understand how I would lose a child being as healthy as I am you know and active and not the sickly time there's no reason at all for not having a child except that you don't have one so they tell me but you know no matter how logically that even the doctor tells me you know it's a matter of time it's a matter of time something's not functioning properly otherwise it would be right it would be there so that brings that sense of failure to me yes [Music] and I I guess I want to succeed and I want everything that I want and I and then I look at things and I say that I would give up I'd rather give up my career to have a child if I didn't have a house that's fine I could do something else but I can't seem to to win at that aspect if there were some sacrifice you could make in return for having a child sure you make it yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't I would do whatever had to be done you want to make my vows that if I do have a child I would be the best little parent all this good stuff which then really touches either did you just promise to do everything right yeah I do [Music] if yeah yes and I don't know without the without the control I just have to wait I guess but it's hard not to have the control yeah if I had the control you know it would be done and everything would be fine and I push the clock back and I'd have a nice little family a little boy a little girl everything to be perfect that sounds that there's some grieving over what might have been well I I think there is to a degree I don't think that I think that I dealt with that loss fairly well that you know it's not something that I totally dwell on and yet with the thought of a pregnancy there's the thought of what happened with the thought of Christmas there's always the thought of that we visit the grave all those things come up and tragedy keeps being lived over at him yeah especially perhaps at this season yeah so the grief is still there yeah the green I think the grief comes and goes you know there are some times that are fine that you know that it's very rational and logical to me and then there's other times that depending where I am and who I'm with and what's about what children are there you know things pass through my mind it can't hit you it does it comes and goes I had to say that you made it easy to talk about this stuff enjoy you've made it easy to talk about this somehow I get the feeling that you you know I don't think you can understand I don't think you can feel that same feeling but I think that you can be empathetic with the situation you know I can't feel it in my body what you feel in yours but at least I have made it easier for you yes and and just you know thinking about it in respect to my control and I guess I've come to my own decision or conclusion that I've got to kind of just sit and wait and let what happens happen right you realize I really can't control this much as I'm accustomed to controlling much as I'd like to be able to control it I cannot control this No no matter how hard I try I can make the best efforts that I can't control it completely and yet that doesn't mean that I don't still don't feel like I've made some failure along the way you say that doesn't keep you from feeling something of a failure yeah I mean I can I can rationalize and say I can't control there's nothing I can do about it that's the way it's meant to be and yet down in here it still feels like well there's something you could have done or should do or whatever in some sense I failed yeah maybe not me maybe not me exactly I don't I don't even got you no not me exactly I mean I'm not totally responsible you know I didn't have the control I did what I could do so I'm not the failure that isn't it exactly well I I guess I know I'm not exactly the failure but there's still that feeling inside me that says that something else could have been done and maybe it's the bodily feeling isn't it yeah because it's not a thinking thing hmm you know because I realize that it's something in you says something might have been done yeah maybe it's the lost feeling you know maybe it's something that says I don't have this and I still want it and so it's failure of not being able to fulfill that [Music] feeling that you're not really fulfilled yeah not complete okay a real sadness you carry around video I think it's a sadness and yet I think sometimes it it helps me in some of the things that I have to do and some of the things I do are you saying in some ways this made you stronger or more able to meet yeah I think through some of the things that I've gone through even with the relationship with my husband I think through that episode that we shared there was a lot of strength between the two and even though there has not been a lot of discussion you know as far as how we felt in relation to the loss I saw a side of my husband I'd never seen before which showed me a great strength in him so that it's better the grief and the loss some good things emerged from it oh definitely if if anybody can say something good came from that I think the the love and the strength are good I guess I would just like to complete that though but I'd like to complete that though by being able to give him a child very deep wish I see that our time is almost up is there anything more that you want to say no just that I appreciated talking with you okay okay thank you thank you hold it because they may want to ask you questions as well as me after we've just a minute possibly you'd be willing to think back and say how the interview seemed to you and then I'll say how it seemed to me then maybe we could let them in and let them ask questions of us and that'd be okay then we can be rest in fairness to know you want to say how the interview seemed to you when I first came up here I felt very very tight and I know that I crossed my legs a lot when I sit and somebody may interpret that as closed I think this is just comfortable for me I know that after we took the minute to kind of get a little composure I felt a lot better and then as we started to talk just your facial expression and some of the things that you repeated back to me made me understand some of the things that I was feeling and saying as well as I think I became more comfortable because I remember I remember touching my chest and when I was talking about my feeling and it wasn't an angry touching or an upset I was kind of warm and soft and I felt that way and I guess the only thing else that I could say is that as I think about it now and since I teach at a university level about you and some of my students always wonder how you know where do you move and how do you go with just a hun moving on I found it very easy to want to talk with you I I didn't feel like I had to prove myself that you had any judgmental type of attitudes torment towards me and I felt very comfortable okay I think as far as I'm concerned I felt a little clumsy at first and getting into your world but then I began to feel more and more comfortably there so I really didn't understand and I know there was a feeling of being really privileged to enter into you sent your sense of loss and what you'd been through in your hopes and then your characteristic of being the one in control and that here you'd run into something you couldn't control and I do is moved in that I'm not sure that I know all the significance but you're putting your hand on your chest was it as though your body was speaking and I was trying to hear that I felt that in terms of movement yes there is some movement not not fantastic but it was it was it was a half hour of exploration that's what it seemed like to me getting into different aspects of it and I felt I felt good about the relationship one thing to because they have turned down the house lights so we were just alone for me there just was no one there and I felt very comfortable in there you reach the other knee commence one week they will open it to the audience things which seemed important to me was the useless silence the way in which he Duran was silent but it seemed to be a working silence wisely I felt that because she came to something different at the end of the silence and it was not interrupting I don't know whether Peter ends out that or not I know that when the silence occurred I know that I was kind of trying to think and and feel what was going on with me and so I guess I was trying to draw some kind of closure to where we had been find what I had touched upon yet mark I'm more familiar and more comfortable with the your own feelings yes done yes I felt those were definitely your silences and that you were you were quit obviously working during the silent during the silences I think part of the time too I was looking into your face and into your eyes to see you know what I was getting from you and I think that helped me as well to come to some kind of decisions or conclusions based on the niceness that I saw coming back I think I have you're willing it seemed it two or three times who came around to that this is a real loss and there was something wrong and somehow you'd failed and yet another time it wasn't all my fault but there was something wrong and I was sensing over myself some feeling of angry about the loss and not being able to do anything about it was that awesome no there's definitely there's definitely some anger that I can't control that situation or could not control it at the time but I think there's always the guilt if there was if a doctor could say you lost these twins because that would be acceptable they can't give me an answer you know it's just a premature birth and so you're kind of left without any answer and so with that I think I have feelings of maybe I shouldn't have washed the dishes or maybe I shouldn't have swept the floor but I don't know the answer and so I think that something that's gonna be out there forever unclear now if you'll turn up the house lights then we can get questions from the from the audience I don't know that I can see well enough to really select people but if you could come to the center microphone if you do have questions of one of the center microphones you can ask questions of me or of Peter Ann or just make comments whatever you turn on the center mics please there it is okay try again Peter and this was a question for you and Carl maybe you can comment on it as I watched the interview I had a sense that when you started out you were at one level of talking about your experiences in the moment of your fears about being pregnant and the excitement in both the fear about that and as the interview progressed my sense was that you went from a stance where you were more earlier on the interview I felt you were blaming yourself a lot calling yourself a failure and I noticed or I felt that during toward the end of the interview you seem to be more able to entertain the notion that something was wrong and that it was not necessarily you who were wrong and to me that felt like one of those maybe not so minuscule changes that someone was commenting about earlier on in the therapy and I wonder if you make some comments to that the you want me to make comments to the faculty you feel that was that an accurate perception or did you see a change in the beginning to the end I I think I saw a change from the beginning in the end too I started out with my narrow scope of that I had a loss and then I think there are so many more things that plan that that I saw myself changing to not only the loss aspect but all these other things that affect me in relation to the loss and yes I don't think that it is my fault you know and I think I tend to blame myself I do and I'm not sure that I'll ever get over blaming myself and yet at this very moment I realized more and more that it's there's nothing I could do about that I guess I felt the shift blame to lost during the course of the interview I was impressed too if I can comment on that when you when you sit her at the end when I said you're a failure and you said no not me exactly that was it was very impressive because I felt you were realizing no there's a limited limited part of anything that you're pregnant as far as any blame any possible plane was concerned was very very limited and it wasn't a failure of you yes I have been a little puzzled by the remark you made Peter on to car vouchers but him being not empathetic and I think I understood that and mr. Rogers you tried to clarify that by saying I did not understand I'm not understanding with my body what you are feeling in your body but I don't think Peter and was talking about your body is being different I think she was talking she was just strictly saying that you were not really understanding what she was feeling I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm going to be very presumptuous and I hope you'll forgive me for doing so but I think what you were saying Peter an is that you made a decision years ago to have a career rather than have children and now you're 35 and your biological clock is ticking away and the guilt you are feeling I think is about having made that decision and there's nothing you can do you are willing to trade anything you have to not have made that decision but you made that decision years ago and you don't know what to do the doctors if the doctor is telling you you know you lost your babies for this or that you're looking for an answer and in fact you have the answer [Music] you have any comments about a make or not yeah I'm alchemy couple one when I made the comment to dr. Rogers I think I was I was coming to a point of thinking that this is and this is gonna sound terrible and sexist but this is a woman's loss that you could not you know understand that aspect and not and it wasn't that I didn't think you were empathetic with me but that kind of a feeling the other aspect about feeling guilty about my career definitely I feel that way to a degree and I know that and yet if I had it to do all over again knowing what I know now I might change it would you knowing what I know now I might change it right but I'm not positive that I would because I what I have gained and what I am is important to me it's just not as important at this point because what I want I can't have and I think that's what draws without me the most is that now I want this and I can't have it and so yes I'm angry that I did this but I'm not sure I would change that you're angry that you did this and I think that decision you did years ago was a decision about the word that comes to my mind is a selfish issue selfish decision and when now you would like I'm sorry [Music] alright alright I think right there I think what the audience is reacting to is the finality of your judgement about this as though here is the real truth well I think from confronting some part of our decisions and I'm not saying that the decision you made was wrong I'm not saying that at all but I think by facing the this the fact that you made some decision yours ago anyway there's nothing most of what you've said she already said in her in her interview but then when you sum it up in a very final way as though here it is that I think it's the tone of voice that Rob's people a little the wrong way I'm sorry and I guess I look at it that I he's entitled to his opinion I would give him that much I was I didn't mean that nasty I I mean I would I could understand his side also also that was that I really did understand when you were saying yes it was a it was a woman's problem I couldn't fully understand it no matter what just a physiological point of view I was very struck that most of the time dr.

Rogers the words that you used when you talk back to Peter Ann were her words and I was thinking about the way that I do therapy where I often change the words or say something different and the feeling that I began to get was that that was a very effective way of tuning in to you Peter and in terms of just that flow of real positive energy and love between you because you were hearing very explicitly the same things that you had said said in a very sympathetic and loving way when you talked about dr. Rogers looking you are you looking at his eyes in his face and experiencing that kind of feeling I certainly experienced that in the audience as well so I guess my question really was for you Peter and is what that felt like for you to hear your words coming back to you and not something in addition particularly during the first part of the interview I used to always think that that would be frustrating but in that experience I think it made things clear and it pointed out to me what I was thinking and feeling and saying that maybe sometimes I speak and don't really think what I say and it helped me to understand one thing I would say that is that you're quite right there was more of that at the first of the interview and had to gone on to other interviews probably would have used less of her words that would have been more catching the underlying feeling some of that was beginning go on I've my intent in the interview was to really be a companion to Peter and in her world and any way I can get inside that world is okay by me and sometimes it is by repeating some moments by trying to sense the feeling that underlies the words but I but I do want to be enough of a companion to the client so that the client feels released to go forward and also I want to make the relationship so safe that things that can't be said can be said and feelings that can't be experienced can cannot be experienced can be experienced in the relationship and that is my intent we only had half an hour's worth so only to some degree was that could that be achieved [Music] dr. Rogers it seems to me that that when I heard Virginia so to speak this morning and later on her journeys Rossi and now you the that all of you are making reference to kind of a physically experiencing self that somehow separate from from the intellect and that sometimes the intellect and this physically experiencing self aren't as close of friends as they might be now we all know that that we spend small fortunes in many many hours developing that kind of intellectual self could you speak to the development of that physical experiencing selfish now let me say first today I think you're quite right that dim intellectual processes often go off in one direction and our experiences in another and they were one or two small examples of that in this where your mind was telling you you're not guilty for example and yet you experience guilt I think that our educational institutions do a great deal to help us develop persons who are guided by intellect and rational thought and so on and who often get further and further from the actually things that they're experiencing and it is that gap which makes for a great deal of psychological difficulty of knowledge us I I think there is no fundamental reason why we couldn't be educated dude trust our experience as well as our intellect but unfortunately that's not often the case and many of us grew up to just the intellect and the rational and the reasoning and get quite out of touch without our actually experiencing so that yes I do feel that's an important thing and and something that probably ties together a great many rather different therapeutic points of view which reminds me of one other thing I want to say about my style and responding to a client I'm not saying that's the way you should respond I feel that each person has to develop their own mode of therapy my feeling is if you put it very specifically if you record your interviews and study them later you will find things that you do that are very helpful perhaps they're very specific to you you'll also find things that you do that really don't seem to advance the process at all and the perhaps get in the way of it and those who can drop so that I'm not talking about just doing what you feel like doing but after carefully studying what you do then gradually developing your own way of being with another person which is helpful and then I think is I don't I don't ask anybody to do what I do I do it because that's good that's a way I found of being helpful to people your wave might be different but examine what you do so as to make sure that what you're doing is helpful or not unhelpful at some point at some point along the interview they're seen to be it and it was exciting to me to hear sort of a change of valence whereby this tragic event began to take on some positive aspects I think Peter Ann mentioned she saw a different side of her husband a sense of strength and I was just wondering how each of you experienced that whether there was anything then either of their experiences that antedated that change and and was there any selectivity in how you were reflecting back the the information that the other hand was giving him my comment would be that I we were talking about the failure aspect and we were talking about the loss and it came to me as it did then and does periodically that there was some very good moments even though it was tragic and that makes me feel good that may have even been when I put my hand on my chest I'm not sure it may have been in the same area but there are some very good points of that and I guess I'm not exactly sure how we got there so I think we were talking about the failure aspect and I think I I'm not totally a failure and that there are some good things that came from that and they helped with those and learn some things through those I just wouldn't be sure at this moment how we arrived at that point I'd have to see the videotape or listen to the recording to find out but and I certainly felt that shift in evaluation of it but I wouldn't want to and but but both sides were there that is the the grief and the loss and the tragedy and the fact that some good things came out of it and I wanted to be respectful of both sides but it is true that that positive sign came out [Music] I saw the interviewers starting out broadening in scope is it went on becoming more exploratory and more things with the outwards but I guess better and my concern is that you'll go on exploring the scope will broaden do you think that the client-centered approach would be enough to resolve your conflicts I think that had we had more time or further interviews that we could have explored the avenues that I mentioned I think they all play a part for me and maybe it did seem like it broadened and yet I think those were things that I felt more safe to bring in that this bothers me too and so does this in relation to that and I would hope that we would eventually deal with those and I could come to some closure on them thank you for that but I guess my father concern would be that you were a very vocal client you could say what you wanted to say and you had you had all your feelings out in the open I have to go back to a culture and so I have to go back to South Africa and I know that most of the clients that I will work with won't be able to express themselves that well dr.

Rogers why do I do I think I can answer that very briefly but it's not easy to put into effect you can be very very present to your clients I think to be really present in the relationship is one of the keys to therapy how you will be present I don't know it's quite true that Peter N was a very articulate person but the difference between an articulate person and a very silent person isn't all that great I recently had occasion to go over the some of the recorded interviews that I held with a schizophrenic plant and they were doing our research and working with schizophrenic in the length of some of those silences 16 minutes of silence my god and yet that was a working silence and of the Internet some very important things came out I guess I would say that the significant themes in any interview are usually very few very few they can be stated in a few sentences and some people who are very silent and not articulate nonverbal may only utter a few sentences during the time you have with them but if you've made it a safe place a place where they can feel free those sentences will have real significance the more articulate person also says a few very significant things but also gives many of the details and helps helps us to understand the context and so on but the difference between dealing with an inarticulate and an articulate plant is not as great as it sometimes supposed to be in experience thank you the primary thing I've come to this conference looking for is commonalities between one practitioner and another and I think I saw though saw one of those today in the hour before this I sat in with dr. Ernest Rossi talking about hypnotherapy and he emphasized there the minut rapport between therapist and client I saw you doing it very much in tune I want to use a word larger than empathy empathy seems to me to relate to the content and the emotion what I saw was in your very physical processes a sense an exquisite sense of timing and skill that that I don't do in sessions when I am nervous that I didn't do when I was less experienced it seems to me that perhaps what you do well is something that hypnotherapists have put under the microscope and talked about have you ever thought of yourself as doing something very much like hypnotherapy have you ever analyzed and that when you talk about analog analyzing the minut moment-to-moment fluctuations are you aware of your sense of timing of your respect for her broken eye contact while she's thinking and you and you recognize it I don't know this in any Rogerian therapy I've ever been taught and yes I would say that I've come to place a larger and larger emphasis on the intuitive aspect of the relationship I don't know the Bevers you feel you saw some of that here I'm not sure but I do feel that that is one common alligator that I share with the work of Erickson for example I am NOT one who pays attention to things like you said broken eye contact and so on I'm sure I take account of that at some intuitive level but no that's not something I think about and I'm not sure that it's helpful to think about it people might differ in that at any rate I appreciate your comment and I applaud your search for finding some of the commonalities because I think there are commonalities between different therapist and different therapeutic points of view I thought I detected throughout a large portion of the session a an emotional message in the shakiness of Peter and voice and my question to dr. Rogers is was there a specific reason why you chose to respond to her words as it was mentioned earlier you you responded very often in her words and you did not choose to respond to the nonverbal message that she was giving you in her shaky voice I wonder if there was a reason for you making that choice I guess I responded to it in my way I certainly noticed the shakiness an inner voice which came and went but I I responded to it in different ways I remember at one point saying that was very very hard and I was responding to the fact that she was close to some very deep emotions and might have responded differently or perhaps better but I was not unaware of what you're talking about do you have any comment on the not really although I knew that I had tears in my eyes and I know that I had the shaky response and yet I felt that I was being responded to and being allowed to do those things grips one more question I think another question yes I the picture that you get on the screen is a little different than I get when I'm looking right here but when you were first starting and when I was looking at Peter and I was seeing her face and I was seeing the colors that she chose to wear and my first impression was this is a woman in mourning and I'm wondering sometimes I didn't arrive I can often be wrong with my wonderings and I'm wondering dr.