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hey everyone and thanks for jumping back into the cryptoverse this is NFA live here we are once again on Thursday morning least on the east coast of the United States um happy to welcome guy from coin buau back at the top right how's it going yeah good thanks Ben how are you pretty good and Rob from digital Assa news how's it going fantastic happy to be here are you trying to convince me or you well I know I know one of us is super happy because Bitcoin dominance is going up so this should be a

good show yeah so let's go ahead and jump in there's a few questions I want to get to today um the first of which right is about this recent selloff in in the crypto markets what do you what do you guys think is behind it I mean obviously we could Point towards a number of different things whether it's geopolitical whether it's you know Ma you know macro labor market or whether it's just you know sometimes the market sometimes the crypto markets fade for a little bit before you know before um before our trusty friends at

the Federal Reserve will will finally intervene but what do you guys think is is behind the recent selloff guy I will start with you okay uh I think there I think there are two things behind this selloff or two thing two reasons why prices have crashed as they have I think the first is for want of a better term World War III or you know fears around it obviously everything that's happening um in the Middle East in dare I say at this neck of the woods um so that has obviously got a lot of people

on edge and I think there's there's a lot of concern that that is that could get a lot worse um and obviously that has wider implications Beyond just the region you know there's fears that other countries could get sucked in and it could blow up into something even bigger and of course there are like macroeconomic concerns around that things like Rising oil prices Etc um so I think that was perhaps responsible for the initial downturn but then this is crypto and I think the far bigger you know news or the the bigger Catalyst if you

like for the decline in prices after that is is leverage um because and to be fair like I'm I'm I I don't use leverage so I wouldn't you know I didn't long or or short the market however if I was a leverage Trader uh last week the sentiment was so strong the sentiment was so bullish that if I if I had placed to trade I would have longed before I shorted so I'm not surprised that a lot of people were long in the market um but of course you know you get something I wouldn't say

it necessarily came out of left field because I think the tensions you know between Israel and Iran and Hezbollah and Etc have been you know been getting higher for a while but you get something like this and you know you get that initial selloff and then it just Cascades and I mean I think it was about $500 million uh got liquidated um and I think we saw about three billion dollars of crypto going to exchanges because there'll always be you know there'll always be some people who are spooked by this um by by things like

this and start selling off I think there's also automated sell-offs and stuff like that especially from institutions but yeah I think really the the the bigger villain here if you like is is um is leverage because people were sort of full of the up toober Vibes um everything was very bullish and you know generally generally sort of very positive sentiment it dipped and people got there people got wiped out and here we are fair enough yeah I mean all all certainly seems possible and many different reasons why crypto is is not doing so well of

the last few days I I think a lot of people as you said were extremely bullish going into um October and here we are bitcoin's back at at 60k Rob what about you what do you think's behind the recent downturn in the market uh it's it's down because I bought yesterday that's the only thing I can really think of that's just pretty much how it goes but in all honesty I mean if you look at like if you take a look at the top 100 cryptos right now the the one that took the biggest hit

I mean for the majority was xrp and we're going to talk about this a little bit later but of course the came back and they appealed the decision and I think it's it really hinges on a lot of things of what they're doing so people hear about a court case people hear about like what guy talked about about leverage and then of course people hear about what Jerome Powell talked about just a couple was it yesterday where he said look you know we did the 50 basis points but don't expect that to happen again we're

going to be data dependent and we're going to move from here and we'll see where we go because everybody was pretty much pricing it in 50 basis points November 50 basis points December and then next year another full 100 basis points and now that the market got that they're like maybe it's not where we think it's going to go so you take that you take the xrp you take what what guy just talked about about World War III fears which I gotta tell you I every single conflict becomes this next World War III type event

I mean remember in 2022 when Ukraine sh your screen do you want me to share your screen right now or no n it's okay it's just I mean people know this stuff right now I don't to really show them it's just like every single time we get a conflict it's World War III the market gets spooked out and what guy talked about you get liquidated you have but also you have a lot of other things I mean once you have liquidations which it was half a billion dollars just 24 hours ago then the herd mentality

comes in margin trading the Bots pick everything up and go oh well they're selling then I'm selling then before you know it's like I said Cascade effect and then here we are but then I think about all these things I think maybe it's just there's just some major players behind the scenes because let's be honest we're only at $2.2 trillion in this market how hard would it be for someone to make a boatload of money just by playing the opposite side of what everybody thinks it is and that's why when I take a look at

these markets I'm like I I just think there's a a little bit of manipulation going on behind the scenes just a little bit and that's what kind of gets us to this point but again uh just stick around I think you like where we're going it just not right not right now so that's where I see everything uh today you know there there's an interesting comment by by Andre and I I got to say I I'm actually in in in his Camp about this and and basically what he says is the price is down because

that's been the trend for the past six months and and this is this is something that I I feel like has been happening right and you know it's been something that we've talked about and and and and and analyze and and you know I've made the comparisons of course to 2019 and and and rate cuts and something but it's one of those things where it's almost like people refuse to even acknowledge this aspect of it right you know it's down for it's not like this is new right I mean bitcoin's been dropping since since March

right for the last seven months um and so you you sometimes have to wonder right I mean the the narratives are easy and I I could easily Point towards everything but I wonder if if this is just kind of the way the Market's going right now because you know it's just a series of higher or lower highs and lower lows until the fed steps in um and that's what happened last cycle uh we'll see we'll see but I I I do think that it is you know Trends are very powerful and I don't I don't

really believe in a lot of ta but one thing I do believe in is momentum momentum is a hell of a drug um both to the up and the downside um so I I just wanted to highlight that I think that was a good comment and and really you know sort of a self-aware thing like guys this is not new if you're caught off guard by Bitcoin going to 60k like where have you been for the last seven months um the the the next thing I want to talk yeah the next thing I want to

talk about is the SEC because you know I I think a lot of us had almost forgotten about this if you guys remember what was a couple years ago um or no a year ago a little over a year ago um there was a ruling you know coming out uh with the court case with the SEC and and and ripple XR the xrp token whether it was security or not and and I know a lot of people don't really care about xrp and I'm not asking you to I want to be clear my my the

point of this is to say like what do you think why is the SEC doing this now you know um and do you think they will be successful in their appeal right so I should say what they're doing is they're appealing the uh the ruling in the court case from you know from I guess over a year ago and and following that news xrp sold off like almost immediately like 10 to 15% um so pretty big drop and honestly with with xrp's market cap decent I mean it's not tiny like it's not like a micro

cap or anything when you get a 10 to 15% drop by an altcoin with a market cap as high as xrps that's obviously a huge Tailwind for things like Bitcoin dominance right you know when when stuff like that happens um so why do you think the SEC is doing this now after all this time and do you think they have any chance of of finding success with it Rob uh there's a person that if anybody wants to follow this case along and a really good a great opinion from an actual lawyer there's a gentleman his

the handle is meta law man and I have been following him for a couple years now and he's always spoton because you know he's in that realm and one of the things he talks about he says you know he goes this was he thought it was inevitable that they would appeal this case because he said that there's so much that actually rides on this case not just for ripple but it would be forgive the pun it would be a ripple effect across for coinbase and across for Kraken and across for binance and whatever else that

the SEC wants to actually do he goes so if they don't win this case that could put a big a big uh hamper on what they're trying to do legally and of course unfortunately globally even though the SEC only has jurisdiction like in the United States but seems like they're they're Global now but uh he talked about he said it this case he goes they were going to draw it out to kind of just you know give a a sense of H security and then they were going to appeal and they of course they're they're

appealing right now but he did say something very interesting he said that even though this is under appeal they have to really State their case to go against the ruling by the judge and it has to be a very powerful sentiment or very powerful information to come out and actually to overturn the original court case so he goes appeals it's it's not like there it's like an automatic it's actually very difficult to overturn so that is what is the SEC is doing but he said unfortunately it will be drawn out and it will take time

and of course and I'll just add this in you know who's paying for that uh that's all of us so us taxpayers really get the bill and uh it's a shame but that's that's where we're at and the only way to to get around this is for Gary gendler to be out and the only way for that to happen is someone else to get in the white house so I guess we'll see what happens um yeah just seems like and I I don't I mean I i' I said this what like I think we all

talked about this a year or two ago I I think a lot of us just want answers you know I mean and I've said before right I mean stocks are securities and it's not like they don't have bull markets right I don't me I don't I don't think security status is like you know the harbinger of death that everyone necessarily thinks it is um it could be for some altcoins but it doesn't necessarily mean that it it you know that that you can't survive the asset class can't survive something like that I just think it's

crazy that we're you know it's 2024 almost 2025 and we still don't even know what the hell we're even trading um so maybe we'll get some some resolution soon guy what are your thoughts about about the uh the steps taken by the SEC here last couple of days last few days yeah I mean I I yeah I I I think Rob's Rob's explanation or or Rob's um idea that it's that this is you know because of the precedent that because yeah I mean Ripple basically got the result that they wanted didn't they they they got

they got away with um there was the there was the ruling last year that secondary sales on exchanges weren't Securities and then they and then event like you know a few months ago the judge ruled that they they had to pay up $125 million fine which sounds like a lot until you realized that the SEC was after two billion and I think I think Ripple was sort of you know waving their checkbook in the air as soon as that figure was announced like sure we'll pay that so um but I guess the precedent that that

sets as Rob said you know that has implications in in all the other cases against entities against crypto companies um that that the SEC has out so I guess you know it has to um it feels it has to push back against um against that ruling um I I think it's really it's it's really interesting the timing because I don't know if you guys noticed um today but ger Greywell who is the who was say the sec's head of enforcement has resigned um or been fired it's not entirely clear what um but uh the SEC

tweeted about that either either first thing this morning my time or or or last night your time but so that's really interesting because he was the person like Gary gendler catches all the catches all the flag and you know deservedly so he's he's running the show show there but Gerber Greywell was head of enforcement he was responsible for bringing all these actions and I think that's fascinating that he has gone I mean there might be an innocent explanation behind that but it's still very strange timing um and also rather strange timing when you consider that

bitwise just filed for an ex just filed an application for an xrp ETF um so I don't know whether either of those any of those you know either of those two things are related to what the SEC uh has just done you know W with with filing this appeal I know it filed they tried an in interlocutory appeal I think it was called I think they tried one of those last year and it failed so you would imagine that this is a little bit of a Hail Mary um but yeah I think the timing is

is really really interesting and and also like um Ripple some of Ripple's top brass I think um Chris Larsson who's the co-founder and now I executive chairman at Ripple he came out recently or or was um was revealed to be a donator to Kamala Harris so you know obviously his donations aren't aren't um aren't buying what perhaps what he hoped they would because um you know this this action still going on um but I think it's very very interesting timing I'm not sure what the SEC whether the SEC really feels that they can achieve anything

from it but we'll see yeah I was wondering if it was a response to the filing right you know or or like all right let's get ahead of this before everyone starts filing for all these altcoin ETFs and stuff I don't know yeah yes hold on a minute guys just hold on a minut let's not get ahead of ourselves yeah maybe um there is another question and I I'll just bring it up because it kind of is a is a segue into the the next question I had anyways and um the price is down because

retail is absent still and you know I if you look at at Social statistics that's obviously obviously true um but I I did notice I don't know if you guys noticed but after the 50 basis point rate cut by the FED there was about a two week period where the gas fees on E went up for a little bit and there was a there was a little bit of activity it was kind of like hey 50 basis points of rate cuts and you know some people came back to the table it makes you wonder you

know if we get another 50 and another 50 what's the threshold right that actually brings retail back um I think I think maybe maybe when the FED funds rate gets to 4% is kind of my base case at this point which could happen before the end of the year um but I mean it goes to show that that by the way Bitcoin is below 60k right now I just noticed um but it goes to show that you know the the lowering of interest rates does not always have right just because you lower rates does not

mean people immediately come back right you need to to sufficiently lower them where it's actually going to make a difference and I think the issue is that for a lot of people you know whether interest rates are 5 and a half percent or 5% it's not really a huge difference you know um and I don't think that's going to move the needle so it it kind of brings up this question there's basically it's not only the FED right there is a global easing cycle underway right now you know the fed's cutting interest rates um so

is the ECB the Bank of Canada um you know you could go on and on you and not only do you see interest rate Cuts but you see places like China um you know injecting some liquidity now it pales in comparison to what happened in March 2020 in terms of the liquidity wave back then but they're doing something um so I'm curious do you think the current economic reality justifies the easing um do you think it's safe for central banks to keep cutting as aggressively as as they have been or do you think that the

upside risk to inflation is too high and they should go uh just a bit slower so I'm curious what you guys think about that because there's there's a a huge range of views like there's some people that say we need cuts and we really need them now right and and and they're behind the curve and then there other people are saying they should raise rates um so what do you guys think guy I'll start with you yeah I mean the the the data has the data keeps suggesting that inflation is falling I mean I know

we get I know we get sort of contradictory statements to that effect you know you see a lot of you see a lot of people online complaining about how prices have gone up and actually you know these are official inflation figures aren't reflecting what's happening on the ground and and you know there may be some there may be some truth to that but the data which is what the FED has constantly said it is working from and watching that suggests that inflation is still falling um and so therefore the the focus switches to the employment

side of the Dual mandate that takes priority so now I guess they feel um that and because they because they're able to take it month by month or well not even month by month because it's not they they don't meet every month do they um but yeah it feels like they it feels like they they're now they're now concentrating on on employment concentrating on the labor market um and um yeah I mean like you know monetary policy it can't there are there are things that could bring inflation back you know these supply side factors and

I guess one of the things that people are worrying about now is these potential Port closures over in the US you know but mon monetary policy can't do anything about that you know oil price spikes caused by you know going on in the Middle East Port closures and stuff you know there's nothing that the FED can can really do about that so I guess it has I guess they feel that as as inflation is currently under control um that they need to to concentrate on on strengthening on on supporting the labor market yeah yeah yeah

I mean Rob I know I know you typically don't want the rate cut stuff but what do you think no it's oh it's it's important everybody should I mean guys's right about uh the ray cuts and you know the policy that has to be put in place but you know if you take a look I mean really it's going to come down to just like Drome it's funny because like just like what Andre talked about he's like well the trend's going this way so that's where we're going and then just like what we would take

a look at as far as like with the markets and rate Cuts Jerome Powell has been very clear about which way we're going so it's the same thing but it really comes down to the data and the data for today I think we get jobless claims this morning and I think we get uh non-farm payroll and unemployment rate tomorrow and hourly wages so we'll see what where we go there and then the bigger question though is like is for this data that comes out like like how accurate is it you know when it comes and

how much are they going to revise this later on the dependence so we'll see I mean it's it's it's always it's like always a crapshoot you're kind of just thinking okay well now this is this is the data this is what's going to happen and then it comes out you're like oh that's not what it is and then they they do a total reversal but really what it comes down to is the uh economy has to be somewhat stronger there has to be more liquidity coming in because even if we get liquidity and just like

guy talked about about the the long shoreman and things shutting down and then World War III and things like that people will still panic and they'll still put their money where they think it's going to do the best thing for them and unfortunately and if you look at it just uh 24 to 48 hours ago they didn't put into Bitcoin they put into gold so if we're thinking to ourselves well this is definitely a store of value I think a lot of people still don't see it like that and when people say we're actually late

we're not late we're super early people still do the same things they've done before and until they really understand where it is it's going to continue on the same way so it has to be a lot more more a lot more uh liquidity in the market for us to to go up and and the retail is definitely not back yet as much as it should be we'll see yeah and you know um Ashley says they can say the hell whatever they want groceries are still expensive they're not wrong they're not wrong but I think that's

the issue right I mean I I think um you know some people want inflation to go down but they they misunderstand inflation going back to 2% and in deflation right I mean the only way Gro trees are really going to go back to where they were which they're probably not going to frankly going to is is if you get a massive I mean absolutely massive deflationary crash right and while it's possible for the markets to go deflationary they actually went deflationary in 0809 for a little while um there's there's times where that happens and also

they went deflationary in 1949 after World War II similar you know similar type you know money similar types of money money spending by the by the government coming out of World War II and everything inflation issues as well um but yeah I mean this is one of those things where I think everyone's feeling the pain and they want things to be cheaper but that's just not the reality right I mean it's not and it's it's really really difficult and I think that's kind of why the mood is so bad you know we were we were

talking about kind of the mood of of of crypto right now and how every 's kind of down I think a lot of it is just because bitcoin's basically been at the same price since March um and and I I think I honestly I think both sides are getting exhausted I think the Bulls are getting exhausted I also think the Bears are getting exhausted because neither side's getting what they want right I mean the Bulls want 100K the Bears want you know 30 to 40K and neither side is right right the price just keeps hanging

around 60k I think everyone's kind of exhausted we're all tired of fighting each other and we all just want something to happen um yeah it's definitely an interesting time in the markets um I had a I had a question for you guys uh so I've noticed so so look meme mem coins have always been a thing right altcoins have always been a thing in crypto and you know historically there was only like one or two or a few of them that that the market really paid attention to but now it seems like just about every

day someone creates a new meme coin on one chain and then there's 10 copycats of it on that same chain and then 100 copycats of that Meme coin spread across you know 10 other chains and it it just seems like we're losing our way to some degree you know in in the crypto I'm kind of curious I mean do you think the barrier to entry for launching coins is too low right and I know that's kind of a weird thing because you know I think a lot I mean I think a lot of people in

crypto don't really want the government right telling you know telling you what you can and cannot do uh but at the same time are we are we just destined to to to watch a hundred different New Meme coins get printed every hour um from here on out and and and kind of watch what that does to the space so I'm kind of curious Rob we'll start with you do you think the barrier to entry for launching new coins is too low or are you think it's it's fine where it is and we'll just you know

we'll learn our lessons however we're going to learn them uh that was that was funny when you said uh you know 100 new coins I was like yeah 100 do me a favor show my screen real quick this is from Dune how many is it actually Rob so if you look at Dune this is from pump. fun I don't know why they're even tracking this but pump off fun is essentially a meme coin Factory that you can spit out and make any kind of meme coin that you actually want it's very fast and it's very

cheap and it's very easy and you can see back in March you had 5,000 which if you look at this you think you're sell 5,000 how many cryptos digital asset projects are out there I always thought it was like 3,000 2,000 3,000 well you can do meme coins that's 5,000 in March all the way up to uh 2, 865,000 558 so uh when we take a look is is there a a barrier to ENT there's no buried rantry there's just a lot of people doing a lot of stupid things and they're putting in a meme

coins and last thing I'll say is this if you are a mem coin Trader that's cool you can do it I like to gamble too I lived in Vegas for two years it's awesome but I just had an uh discussion with an old friend who's they've they've got a project that's in the top 300 for crypto and I asked them I said you know what about these meme coins or or no excuse me I said how's the uh the raise with with VC and he said it's very difficult right now because we talked to 15

different VCS and almost every single one of them have said that we don't care about utility right now what we're looking for Is MeMe coins and some types of other layer twos and the reason why we're looking for meme coins is because we can get in and get out very quickly so he tolds me he goes what they do and I want everybody to listen to this is that when you get a meme coin out there it all just gets pushed out there is no unlocks the circulating Supply and the max Supply is even so

what they'll do is they'll buy like crazy they'll push the whole price up people think oh this is the one tomato Tomcat coin is going to be the next big thing of all time and then they just dump on everybody because they have the power and the ability to do that so if you think uh memec coins are where it's at and you're going to make it you're not going to make it you're just going to be exit liquidity so when Ben says you know are we losing our way yeah and all that money that

should have been into some actual utility project should have went there instead of going into the VC's pockets so please think about that next time you want to invest in mem coins well look the same thing happened last cycle right 2019 meme coins were were I mean they weren't nearly as crazy as today but they were crazy and it and it ended up leading to a pretty nasty correction by Bitcoin because I I think people just they they focus on things they shouldn't focus on because they think it's like you know a get-rich quick thing

and then they end up getting wiped out because you know the money's not really going where where it actually should I also think the uh the the definition of VCS in the cryptoverse these days can be somewhat comical right I mean like what self-respecting VC just throws you know money into into you know obvious memec coin scams like this is like are we are we elevating our status maybe beyond what it really is um and also the other thing is um you know for the the barrier to entry as much as much as we all

want to hate on trafi and and regulations and whatnot you know this is probably why it's so difficult you know to you know to to to enter into say traditional markets right with with a a new company ticker and and whatnot because they don't want just everyone going into the market and trying to you know trying to scam people out of their money by by saying hey this is the next best meme coin um I I know these are controversial opinions but I think at the end of the day a lot of people in Trad

five probably experienc this all this once upon a time they learned their lessons and that's how they came to the solutions they came to and now we're all figuring out the exact same thing um but I I'm curious guy what do you think I mean is the barrier to entry too low um or is it is it kind of where it should be and and we'll figure it out well I suppose we we talk about we talk about getting the killer app don't we we talk about the killer app that's going to drive adoption of

crypto and at the and it seem like we get the killer apps that we deserve and at the moment pump. fun is is the killer app so I think it's a I think it's a sort of it's a comment on where we are in the market where we are in the in the maturity of this industry and still we are very much in the foothills of of where it's going to be in in you know 10 15 20 years time Etc so there's still a very long way to go um I mean yeah I kind

of I kind of feel maybe it is it is too low it perhaps should be harder to make a meme coin but then one of the things I do love about crypto in is that it's kind of it's it's different in that way it's like well anyone can do it it's like it's maybe it's not the fact that these things are able to be created it's not the fault of the people creating them they're just seeing they're just seeing an opportunity and they're taking it to make some money really it's the fault of people aping

into them so I kind of feel it's like well well maybe this is you know like it kind of goes back to what I'm saying it's like well we get what we deserve if we're the sort of people who are going to spend you know hundreds maybe thousands of dollars that that that we don't have on buying uh tomato cat dog Co thing then um you'll have to tell me the ticker for that Rob um then you know that's that's that's what we deserve and and we until until we're better you know until we're better

at it we um you know we don't get nice things well what I will say as the Counterpoint to it though is that I do think it's crazy as well like the other end of the spectrum if you like you know if you're talking about VCS it is also crazy how easy it is for some projects you know Pro for some projects to raise money you know to get funding for I'm not going to name any names but I mean we saw it you know partic we saw it in the Ico cycle in 2017 we

saw it in 2021 I think there are still you know we're still seeing examples of it now you know get these you get these projects raising huge sums of money and you're just like what why yeah um but that's you know that's the that's the other end of the spectrum so perhaps it's too easy to create uh crappy meme coins and it's too easy for crappy projects to get funding that you know from from VCS who have made all their profits from meme coins it's a it's a vicious Vicious Circle you know two two of

the things one of the things you said I I I think it's absolutely right um and I it's a really interesting way to put it basically don't hate the player hate the game right you could argue You could argue that the people launching these meme coins are are just sort of a product of the environment they were put it right so so maybe the the people that are really to blame are the people that you that flooded the market with all this liquidity in the first place and and and allowed inflation to run rampit um

and and owed this kind of stuff to happen because it's not the first time right I mean like and and you can't blame crypto for it right I mean this is just human behavior the same stuff has happened many times in Prior Cycles where you know liquidity gets a little bit too loose and rather than people focusing rather than VCS if they want to call themselves that right rather than VC's focusing on utility and what will actually grow the space they focus on how do they make a quick Buck but you know what I'm concerned

about is will that come back to bite us you know the industry as a whole the fact that we're mostly investing you know a lot of people with with with you know that are that are looking to you know to make money they're mostly investing as far as I can tell into into meme coins and stuff that doesn't really actually bring back anything as far as utility is concerned rather than the projects that actually are trying to do something and i' I've actually talked to i' I've I've spoken with a few developers here and there

through the years that are really frustrated because they want to build something that is provides value and utility but no one cares about what they're building they'd rather just go throw their money in the in the latest meme coin and so you have to wonder are we gonna are we gonna have to pay the price for that that attitude one day and I I unfortunately the answer that is yes um hopefully it's not as bad as as it could be but I I do think it's something that we're going to have to learn and by

the way there's there's a couple of other comments that I I think are really interesting one is um s you said I would always assume that insiders will beat me in the mcoin game absolutely right right I mean by the time you're seeing some influencer pump a mcoin they're probably just dumping on you um and then another person said something that I I I think is interesting um they said um where was it yeah here here it is n free market will regulate itself economics which you could also argue that given long enough the market

might regulate it I mean if people lose their money in in rug Poes and stuff enough then you would think at some point investor sentiment might might actually change um last thing before we before we only go back to to audience questions curious what you guys think about ethereum um ethereum has has been ex you know very much underperforming not only Bitcoin not only Bitcoin but also the the asset class as a whole right I mean a lot of altcoins have been out performing ethereum and so you know I I'm definitely in the camp of

of ethereum was you know was way too overvalued on its Bitcoin pair and it's finally getting back to where it should be after all this time but some people are are saying and I'm curious if you guys agree they're basically saying that it's a new trend right like that basically ethereum will not stay number two and that there will be other coins that will come in and take its place so I'm kind of curious about you know where do you guys stand um you know I'm sure I'm sure you guys have sort of explored the

space a bit more than I have um in terms of like the actual you know utility and mechanics of all these other chains that are are theoretically trying to compete with ethereum do they actually pose a threat or is this just sort of a a short-term Trend that will will change sometime soon um Rob well I mean I gotta say if you look at I mean the ethereum ETF it's not doing so hot hasn't done hot it's been negative for since the Inception but then when I talked to some of the people in in Puerto

Rico some of the the crypto ogs are like no no it's going to keep happening because there's so much money rolled into it but I mean if you just take a look back into the era of the internet when it first came around there was a lot of money and not everybody made it even though there was a lot of investors investing into certain aspects of it there can only be so many winners and I gota tell you like this would go back to why people are getting into mem coins because they look at the

other stuff in crypto and like what does this stuff even do where's the real utility so when I take a look at like uh like like ethereum I just think to myself I'm like well what I I know it has value I know that you know with layer twos you can do stuff but has anybody like used let me ask everybody in the audience has anybody used like a layer two to transfer any kind of funds around have you done anything besides get into other projects like or or do farming for other stuff like I

don't see what it does uh I've I've used it I've tried to do it for giveaways and it's honestly not the greatest experience when I look at like other layer ones like a like a salana like a tcoin like a s or whatever if if you use those they're pretty fast they're pretty easy they're pretty cheap and you can transfer funds around and there's a reason why I think PayPal picked uh salana and ethereum for their stable coin and we and guy talked about this I think three weeks ago when we're talking about what's the

big killer app and unfortunately not or fortunately you I think payments are a pretty big use case and uh if you've ever transferred value around the other layer ones work a hell of a lot better so I know people say well Rob you're wrong because he just Layer Two look if I have to explain this to my friends like we got to go through a wormhole and you got to do this and you got to transfer things they're not doing that they're just not just give them something simple and easy to do and they'll do

it and as long as it's cheap and fast and reliable they're going to pick that one over every time but that's just how I see it it and maybe ethereum will turn around with the tvl and all this stuff locked up I have no idea yeah know I mean I I really like hearing these opinions because you know I'm not really kneed deep in the uh in all these different chains right now figuring out which one I actually um you know is is is more you know easier to use and and faster I I certainly

used to be more into that stuff before just you know kind of jumping on the Bitcoin dominance bandwagon for a while but um I'm curious guy what do you think yeah I mean I think you know eth that that that idea of eth being overhauled at some point by another coin is we we're a way off that but it's the sort of thing that could come you know could kind of sneak up on you I guess that ethereum still has this massive ecosystem and really this kind of ecosystem is is in in part now the

problem because not only are these layer twos dispersing liquidity Etc um and users but they're also fragmenting the community as well you know I and I I I think ethereum really needs to really needs to address this kind of interoperability thing and and really you yeah it's it's it's as you say Rob how do you make it user friendly for non- crypto natives to use it because most people in crypto don't want to mess about you know bridging stuff bridging assets doing this bridging to this chain bridging to that chain and certainly new people aren't

you know new retail aren't going to be interested in doing that so you have to make it you have to make it seamless you have to make it easy and that's what the likes of salana have done um so the question becomes I I guess if you're looking for you know if you're if you're looking for the Catalyst that could take eth higher and that could you know pump that narrative again where does it come from I mean at the moment really the only the only sort of big narrative I'm seeing on the horizon for

for ethereum is is perhaps tokenized real world assets um you know Black Rock put Black Rock um using ethereum for its for its Biddle fund I think that is that is something that we shouldn't Overlook and obviously ethereum has this you know this amazing level of security and decentralization that other you know competing layer ones don't at the moment um apart from Bitcoin but then you know Bitcoin is is is is a sort of different you know a different a different kind of L1 or you know isn't really optimized for that so I think e

can sort of turn this around but the competitors I think are are doing more exciting things that are probably going to get more people into it I mean I think is fascinating like let's let's let's think that if the narrative is that salana is the ethereum of you know of of the last cycle and soie is the salana of this cycle where does that leave ethereum this time around and I think salana and suie are the interesting ones because they are you know they're very much leaning in towards consumer focused stuff I think it's fascinating

that both of them are leaning into Hardware you know we've got a a second salana phone coming out next year sui's doing this handheld gaming device salana um has a has a gaming device as well and you know this could be the next Frontier in terms of in terms of adoption in terms of users so ethereum has you know this these these huge issues to overcome that said you know there are upgrades in the in the PIP line it ethereum does have an extremely capable and talented Dev team but it's just whether it can I

think recapture that sort of Nar you know that I guess that kind of degenerate energy that other chains have I mean you look at all the hype from the salana conference in Singapore you know there I wasn't there but there was so much energy coming from that that I saw and I spoke to people who were there and they said yeah it was you know it was pretty wild there was a lot of you know there was a lot of bullishness there whereas I've spoken to people who were at um uh the eth event in

Brussels and it was quite the opposite I mean maybe that's because it was in Brussels but who knows but yeah I think um I think this I think this is a big big challenge for ethereum and it's it's salana and sui and other you know other l1s are stepping into that Niche um so yeah it's it's a tricky one it's a tricky one yeah It's Tricky and then also this last thing is It's Tricky but as these new use cases come in it'll be trick it'll be interesting to see which ones can stay up and

not crash and keep going like there was one that I mentioned tcoin I mean I thought it was the I thought it was a great chain I still think it is but over the last three months it's crashed twice and uh that was a problem now they just had an airdrop of like 131 million people from this this game but uh I mean it stayed up but we'll see how it is that's why like I know people in the comments I see it cardano they say never has gone down that's true but you want to

take a look at like there's no perfect chain out there I'm sorry there's no perfect chain and if there was a perfect chain we would not be talking about all these different ones we'll see which one makes it and doesn't mean that if I talk about something doesn't mean that your chain sucks it's just that I'm just see that's where we're at right now tomorrow it could come out that you know arbitrum just signed a deal with Amazon web service and and uh and Facebook and that's going to be their you know their primary chain

for payments like well look there's your use case congratulations good thing we have some so I don't know things are going just uh I don't know sit tight hopefully it'll work out for you one thing I I I see a lot of people in the comments there's not any specific comment to show because it's just a lot of different people arguing about basically there's there's a group of people and I and I'm not like I I don't entirely disagree with them they're basically like you know we all talk about this theoretical utility but even the

chains that claim to have all this utility aren't make you know they're not going up in price you know like um you don't you don't always make money just because something has utility and I I think the other thing is you know is it imaginary utility right are we forcing there to be utility you know I I I think what the cryptoverse needs is is something that you you you can't go throughout you know throughout life without right and I feel like a lot of people keep trying to make some utility they're they're they're solving

they're they're they're they're creating a solution to something and then finding the problem right rather than finding a problem and creating a solution so that the utility that's being created isn't even something that people wanted to begin with um so I think that might be like sort of a big hurdle for the cryptoverse is how do you the only way you're going to really convince the uh all the meme coin investors to go towards utility is is maybe maybe they have a point maybe there just really isn't a whole lot of utility on a lot

of these chains right now and we're we're sort of making it I mean guys like at the risk of of bringing out a lot of haters at the risk right which I don't really shy away from with the Bitcoin dominant stuff but who uses a salop phone 200,000 people that's all I know but but but here's the question do they actually use it or do they get it because of the airdrop and then they're because of yeah I got you right like but what's the what's the reason behind it right like who's gonna go buy

and I'm not and I'm not I'm not saying it is is someone who can't see it you know becoming bigger it could be I'm just trying to think like I don't know anyone in my life that's going out and buying that stuff um so I just wonder like is that is that the future or you know why are they buying it is it more so because of what you said or is it actually because of the future um I don't know I don't know and look salana one of the things about salana to give it

its dues it's done one it's probably the one of the best performing coins since the end of 2022 um but you know what else I I think about salana as as far as as what's happened recently I think the price topped out around the time that all these mcoin platforms were launched right weren't didn't a lot of these memec coin platforms launch like you know a lot earlier this year and that was around the time that that salana topped out and I just wonder if yet again the liquidity is being diverted away from the actual

useful thing towards all the meme coins and and the less useful stuff right whereas PE instead of focusing on you know the thing that actually might have value people are just focusing on the meme coins on that chain instead um so I don't know no it could be I mean people going to focus on where they make money and if it makes the money they're very happy I mean and it goes all the way from meme coins all the way up to some with function L3 L2 L1 layer zero well as far as 200,000 people

using it how do they go from 200,000 to two million you know and and from two million to 20 million that's a big a big jump you know how do you how do you get that yeah yeah how do you how do you persuade people to who've used an iPhone for the last 20 years or however long they've been around how do you persuade people to come you know to go over to a salop phone you like what's going to be the what what's going to it what's it going to do better what's it going

to do that you can't do on an iPhone and I guess the you know the answer is you could use all these Sal you can use all these Salan adapts you can do all this crypto stuff but the problem is people don't want to the The Wider public non- crypto natives aren't really interested in that you know you see all these oh well salon's got all these these cool dexes you know ra radium Jupiter whatever it's like most people aren't interested in swapping in swapping tokens on dexes you know so that that yeah you're right

that's not going to be a that's not going to be a wide enough a big enough hook for for wider for wider adoption interested in it go ahead Ben so I guess the way the answer right is to make it so that people can't imagine their life without it right and make it a better product than what's out there um not just sort of like a you know a product that only only a few people in a in a small sort of Niche Community are going to even want to be interested in but if you

if you create it to the point where everyone wants to get it and they don't want to get it because of of some airdrop or something else that I mean that that I guess would be where the real utility would come from when you can get get the masses to come in for reasons other than just trying to get an air drop right so again I'm not saying it it can't have a future it could I just it just seems like it's kind of you know a lot of these narratives they need something else to

really keep them going um but we'll see I mean it's the great thing about about humans we are very uh uh creative and and if there's a way people will find it um what are there any other questions guys in the chat um yeah idea would be a collaboration with apple and have a salana version of iPhone um I I I kind of think we're is kind of a different leagues right at this point I don't think um I'm not saying it it eventually can't be but uh let's see what what's in it what's in

it for Apple I guess right that's the thing right what's in it for Apple Tim Cook's not gonna be like this sounds like a great deal for us Tim Cook's like no no no we're we are a duopoly We're not gonna have a tertiary opo you're gonna sit on the sidelines normally what happens when like Acquisitions occur like when a um or or like you know that sort of stuff or big collaborations is like the the the company that got the better deal their their value goes up a lot and the company that got the

worst deal and it's taking a bigger risk their value goes down um so something like that could make it so that the P you know the value of salana goes up but a lot of Apple investors might be like what are you guys doing you know like why is this you know like you guys have a great business over here and now you're wanting to risk it over here and and that that that's why I think some of that stuff happens here here's an interesting comment eth became Wally overv Valu last cycle because of lack

of competition now it's old Tech and its market share will fall to better at layer ones only Bitcoin can get away with being old Tech what do you guys think about that I we talked about it but I mean I I think you can say the same thing for for and this is not a good comparison but I'll say it Bitcoin because people say well bitcoin's the oldest Tech and it doesn't do anything I'm like well it's the most battle tested it's been around the longest and people have the most trust into it so I

think that's a bigger that's one of the things you have to take into consideration trust you know which ones are going to actually hold up during into the scrutiny and especially as you start to onload millions and millions of people I don't know but uh it'll be an interesting time that's why I try to diversify a little bit yeah I think I think definitely things have caught yeah I think there there's a lot of Truth to that I think a lot of things have caught a lot of um blockchains have caught up with with eth

in terms of technology and and you know users so that's been that's been the thing of this cycle you know soul soul was a an entirely speculative play last cycle it still is to a large extent this cycle but people are actually using the salana blockchain and to be fair using other layer one blockchains as well so that yeah again that that's the big that's one of the big problems that that ethereum has yeah I mean my my view is that it it will stay number two and that I I I think in the short

term I think a lot of other a lot of other change have have become sort of overhyped relative to it um I I think my my view is that eth Bitcoin dropping as low as it is is actually not a great sign for the altcoin market I I think I you know eth bitcoin's value has always been a great indication as to where the altcoin market is going to go um and and it's usually it's eth is usually the the that gets that signal so I I think that it dropping more so than other projects

which is where I thought it was going to go I I do Wonder are those other projects gonna catch up to it you know in terms of in terms of going more under more or the the Bitcoin valuations of those altcoins going back down um I could absolutely see that in Q4 because a lot of times a lot of times in Q4 Bitcoin dominance goes up and and that's you know sort of a seasonal and you guys have been cryptoverse long enough to see that right I mean you saw what happened in in many prior

q4s where Bitcoin reclaims more and more market share so I just kind of wonder if that's if eth is telling us that's what's going to happen um let me see if we can get one or two more questions and then we'll we'll go ahead and wrap it up um someone says the problem is there just too many chains you're not wrong yeah we just got we talked about this the other week I think this is something that we might see at at some point point maybe not this cycle but in future Cycles it's a consolidation

of like I said I think I said back then hard to hard to imagine how two layer ones could consolidate but we've already seen it with um with the AI projects that are this artificial super intelligence Alliance you know pooling pooling resources and and becoming one project so I think we I I think that could be a big thing next cycle perhaps because they're right there are too many chains there's too much there's too choice and eventually they'll have to be you know there'll be there'll be a reckoning in that respect well it's almost it's

almost overwhelming right like if you if you've been out of the uh the altcoin game for a while right if you've just kind of stuck with Bitcoin I'm speaking from being someone in in you know having this experience now right if you've just kind of ignored alls for the last few years and you just kind of stuck with Bitcoin and now you're looking at them and you're like what the hell is going on over there right like I don't even know there there's so many chains right there's so many chains there's so many meme coins

there's so many iterations of mem coins and and you also you're I think we're at the point now where all the tickers are the same right you could look up a ticker and you still don't know which altcoin someone's talking about you know I I don't it's like you don't I don't even know where to begin sometimes when I when I look at this stuff um it's it's but someone says I think this is a good point too like you know people are just getting impatient and I I do think there's an element of like

you know we overestimate what the cryptoverse will accomplish in the short term and then we underestimate what it does over the long term is that what's Happening Here Again like you know everyone's going into Q4 and they're so optimistic and then the market you know basically slaps them in the face and says hold on a second that's what that's what it's supposed to do yeah but it's what you were saying earlier Ben you know people are people are frustrated because you've had this chop you know okay okay btc's chopping around 60k well yeah but why

isn't it chopping why isn't it going up to 70k or 80k you know people people do get frustrated and and fed up and then you know you have you have an amazing September that no one was really expecting because September's are historically down and then we all get excited about October and then something happens and the market crashes you know so and I think yeah that I think that's a sign of a lot of people are just sort of people just want the idea that It just fits like I think people just would have been

happy for SE setember to be an absolute absolutely terrible month as long as up up October really did fulfill October but it's it's flipped and no one can you know no one can predict it no one really knows for sure why and it's it's frustrating for people it's almost like the reverse of yeah yeah sort of like reverse of what people were expecting September was up and now I mean I mean look it's only October third so obviously a lot a lot could happen but and by the way there there was in in in 2012

I I've seen some people posting these tables around where they basically said that you know Bitcoin always goes up in October of the election year 2012 I mean obviously bitcoin's market cap was a tiny fraction of what it is today but September was green and October was actually red um and then November was green so you know we'll see we'll see where it goes but I I mean look seasonality is is only a very small component to the uh you know to the uh to the puzzle there's a lot more to it than I I

think just seasonality and you could also argue that September was green because of the rate Cuts right I mean last cycle Bitcoin rallied for a couple weeks after the First Rate cut and this cycle we got a rate cut in in September so perhaps that's the underlying reason well I think we've uh talked about a lot any any final Thoughts by by either of you just hang in there sorry it didn't work out but uh just stick around the ones that that that take off early are the ones that are always the ones like man

I wish I would have stayed in there I think you'll be okay yeah this this is a long game folks and look you know sentiment is sentiment is low this week who know all it takes is a a few days of few days of price action going in the other direction and and next week the sentiment could be entirely different and really it's the riding of that wave constantly that that is that is hard but you just got to stay stay focused and stay interested absolutely I mean think about how many times sentiment has changed

since March like I mean the chart the graph is just like you know um sort of a jigsa I mean it's just yeah I don't know zigzagging back and forth no real clear Direction just chasing one narrative after another um but okay guys we've talked about a lot um next week the NFA live will be on Rob's Channel because it's always me then Rob then guy so if you want to make sure you check it out next week subscribe to Rob and the week after that it'll be on guys's channel so make sure you subscribe

to them links to their channels are in the description below so make sure you guys go do that so you don't miss it and we will see you guys next time thanks for tuning in bye everybody see you