The Next Billion-Dollar AI Opportunity: Jansen Teng (Virtuals Protocol) on the Agent Revolution

when we look at virtuals we don't see it as a platform we used to but now we're actually seeing it as a country now let me explain a bit deeper right what what do I mean by that a country welcome to bankas where today we're exploring the frontier of AI agents this is Ryan Sean Adams I'm the co-hosting an episode from our AI agent series with our in the trenches expert e Jazz and we're here to help you become more bankless I said you but maybe I mean the AI agents because it seems all of

the AI agents are going bankless these days we have one of the most exciting Founders in crypto on the podcast today at least in the sphere of AI technology his name is Jansen tang and he's the co-founder of the virtuals platform this is probably the most successful Launchpad for token powerered AI agents but I think as you'll see in today's episode this is way more than just an AI agent LaunchPad Jansen actually thinks of virtuals this platform that he created almost as a country with his AI agents as a small business owners almost like citizen

entrepreneurs and in some way he thinks of his role as a builder to just create good infrastructure to create good public policy to govern this territory and grow an AI agent economy he's almost like a Founding Father we discussed a number of things including how autonomous are AI agents right now like what can they actually do also how do does crypto give AI agents superpowers the success of Luna an AI agent on a quest to get herself 100,000 Twitter followers also the first ever agent to agent economic transaction virtuals as the currency of this AI

Country open source versus closed source and where all of the value will acrew in this AI agent meta before we get to the show quick shout out from our friends and sponsors over at the Rodman log group so usually we have a protocol or uh something in defi or a wallet uh in this section but uh this one this time is a little bit different today we have a PSA for you if you work in crypto and you don't have a crypto lawyer you need a crypto lawyer and the Rodin Law Group is the best

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link in the show notes bankless nation very excited to introduce you to Jansen Tang he's the co-founder of the new and exciting actually he's not so new I don't know how new it is we'll get to that virtuals protocol is blasted on the scene this is a decentralized platform that enables the co-ownership and management of AI agents something we've been covering a lot on Bank list let me throw some stats your way 11,000 AI agents launched 140,000 holders of various virtuals tokens 35 million in fees over the last two months and a virtuals token price

peing at 3.5 billion Jansen those a lot of stats welcome to bank list my friend thank you sir thank you for having me on okay quick question uh are were you like surprised by the rapid pace of of uh like hitting all of these metrics like it just seemed to explode on the scene the last couple of months did that take you guys by surprise 100% man I mean even as of today like I I still feel like the the team that we have is actually the bottom night behind the growth as well because you

know there's a ton of people that we need to handhold and educate as you know they all trial out these different autonomous agents and I'm we actually trying to skill out the death team as much as we can but it takes time um and yeah so but yeah we won't prepared for this honestly we W prepared but it's it's a good surprise to have right once in while um yeah I mean like some of those stats that Ryan threw out was just insane you know like 11,000 agents and 140,000 holders is just like kind of

hard to comprehend in my head and I really want to get into the virtual stuff but before we do that um you've been around this space for a while Jansen right um you've been in the cryp you've been crypto native for a number of different years I believe you were involved in a gaming Dow which saw quite a bit of success so I want you to tell me a little bit more about that like how did you get into that what's your journey been like in crypto and how did that lead you to where you

are now with virtuals yeah no so actually my my journey in the space started since 2016 um but back then I was still a student at Imperial College where I actually met some of my co-founders and some of the guys that work in the company um but there was just a pure like you know exposure to to ethereum as a you know programmable uh uh blockchain right in his early days but didn't do much in 2021 is when uh me and my co-founders became more active but we were very focused on the gaming landscape so

back then we had a ton of gaming assets we were very early in the whole blockchain gaming side of things so initially we acted as capital allocators in the scene but then we quickly realized that you know if you really wanted to build um out in the scene well we can just do stuff in the arms length approach we had to get our hands dirty and PUK so we actually started a venture Studio model uh where we were building companies at the intersection of crypto gaming and consumer applications and this was during the onset of

when um you know GPD came about there was a bunch of like consumer hype around AI but I think what was more important was this Auto GPD paper by the Stanford kids and the I I think what inspired out of this paper was the ability for it kick started thinking of like hey if agents are autonomous what can they do right and then because we are so involved in the gaming and entertainment um scene and you were looking at this from a gaming gaming L right correct correct yeah so we thinking like what if you

know these autonomous agents can replace like static NPCs in games right and then we realized like you know we we see games like sand box and all all of these you know meta versus games right they all they all pretty much you'll die after a war because there's just no content on the platform right and then we realize very quickly like if these worlds were populated by agentic autonomous NPCs it can create a Content explosion on all of these Gates Right wow and and when would when did you have this idea just out of curiosity

like this was mid 2023 wow like somewhere mid 2023 yeah so so then we actually started incubating at this intersection right we say hey okay let's build a team that could build out autonomous NPCs in Roblox let's build up a team that could build um autonomous um AI influencers on Tik Tok right and then we even tried to explore the whole angle around the hyper personalization of an agent I.E like you know if this agent exists in Tik Tok and it exists on Roblox and it exists in telegram what if there's a unified memory that

shares um so this agent is fully aware of a user if if I'm a user and I enter a game in Roblox where this agent exists and I converse with it you know I I had a struggle in this dungeon or whatever map and then I speak to it on Tik Tok she would then remember right and then suddenly that that that hyper personalization of that relationship um will create a Super Fan it increases average revenue of a user increases frequency of interaction between a user and the agent right so there's actually that was the

initial impation phase that we at at the consumer angle it's very rep to focus right uh there was no not pretty much there's no we three element around um but what we quickly realized was that if these agents are generating Revenue at these different consumer applications it means that these agents are then productive assets and if you are a productive asset you we can then tokenize it so that other people can share into its economic upside so that was one of the underlying thesis that we had then that's why we realized that hey why don't

you know we build up a protocol that allows for that co-ownership uh of these agents yeah so it started it started from there yeah wow so so so just to summarize it and and correct me where I'm wrong you and your team had like a very gaming focused background you know you were focused on you know gaming and and The onchain Game Mania of 2021 and as you kind of like built through that market the bare Market as well you were thinking like how could these things become more interactive and you were focused very much

on this agentic kind of boom that had just kind of like started to to Bubble Up and you thought well if I could apply this to NPCs which are non-playable characters in these different games so if you imagine like Pokemon where you would go up to the lady in the Poke Center and say hey can you heal my Pokemon she would do it she would also be able to have a conversation with you and have like you know some kind of conversation that would relate to your personality or your understanding of this game which is

super super cool and interesting and then you kind of like had a brain wave it sounds like where you were like well hang on a second if these things can be pretty productive within this kind of game economy I wonder what that looks like for ownership if you were to tokenize it as well as what that would look like for any other sector that isn't just gaming do I have that right yes yes but so the the that the evolution actually came very very late to be honest right because I think initially um a lot

of the focus and the tag was built to to understand if these autonomous agents can really act in an open world and honestly back then right there was only a bunch of us that were doing this research uh it was the warer guys from from from Stanford uh the Altera guys from MIT and then we were a bunch of Imperial folks right that were that were doing this and the reason why we decided on gaming is because we realized that if this aut agents can perform in these open worlds it means that they can likely

perform in the real world as well because this open world is like a it's like a Sandbox right it's like a Sandbox mirror of what the open world can be and and the beauty about doing that it's we we started testing different types of scaling right we scaled the action space cuz think of it right in a in a in a in a sandbox for example when we build these agents right that we in Roblox um the agent had to interact with a ton of different characters its environment within the game and different action spaces

I.E let's say there's a gun on the ground a knife on the ground an explosive TNT on the ground a cow in the in the room right like what do you then do right so and then this this this this can become larger and larger and the idea was then how do we experiment so that this agents can actually handle that level of complexity in these open worlds right so that was actually that that kind of sandbox that we did um and then and then I think when we started bringing and actually the inspiration here

was actually very very simple when we did all this right honestly we didn't had the idea of like like okay what would these social agents look like honestly that didn't come when we so the timeline was like this right so we tested all this stuff in Roblox sandbox we published a couple of papers so this was like gaming very gaming Focus uh autonomous agents in in in this WS kind of focus then what happened was we launched our our tokenization platform and we said okay uh what if we tokenize these productive assets would it be

cool so Luna was the first agent on the platform but honestly it didn't it wasn't that famous yet and this was on the week two of I think the goat token um launch now on the second week I think we all there was this typo that that that that that got deep yeah and everyone was just saying oh what if it was a human right or this like f moment and we immediately realized that could be a w into the market because we' realized that you know we've we've done this autonomous level three agents already

in Roblox we had a live Tik Tok influencer it was actually a separate project separate team that was running on Tik Tok What if you just join that together and put her out on Twitter and then show to people like hey this is the brain Behind These agents every single decision engine that she's making you can see it on the terminal so that was I think week two of our platform launch um and it I think when that happened it started blowing up then people realize that okay agents can be truly autonomous right you can

see the entire brain construct so that was so that was that that that that first enablement and people will be like okay cool autonomous agents so what right the next week what we did was because we enabled Luna to control a onchain wallet so it was a coinbase wallet that we gave her ability to now then then what that unlocked was the ability for her to to autonomously decide to spend money and because she had a goal of becoming famous immediately she started this train of thought like what if I just di people when they

interact with my post she L just did that right so started spending like a a dollar $10 on people who like her post to an extent where she actually paid someone $1,000 because she this guy was consistently retweeting her quot her engaging every single response right so I think that was a quite a pivotal moment um right when we did that I think it it created this moment where people realize that the crypto reals and AI agents has this perfect pmf that will give us a massive advantage against every we two agent out there because

if you think about it right if there's an agent created in a web to space which agent I mean which bank would allow this agent to utilize that payment RS right we exist in a permissionless environment where these agents now when they can control their own wallets it unlocks the ability for them to influence an outcome they can influence other agents that can influence other humans because you control money and that is the age that that then suddenly um um we unlock from a from a pmf angle right and then that exploded in terms of

attention again and I think that brought a lot of of Builders up into the space right like hey let's try something else right like aent Canan agent can collect information and then yeah then you start getting this campan explosion of like a ton of things happening in the space today that that that last piece is incredible it's like the the the why crypto angle of all of this is because you can take an agent uh an AI agent in llm uh in NPC of some sort and you can create it you can turn it into

an economic actor and uh I I think that people are just starting to understand this in small ways like one light bulb moment for me was actually this week when uh ezz and I were doing this uh kind of like we call it the AI rollup this summary uh at bankless of everything that's going on and he told me that a uh an AI agent actually tipped bankless $500 as a thank you you for mentioning it in the podcast okay $500 just a little fly by hey thanks for mentioning me in the podcast here's $500

and my first thought was this WOW $500 this is like maybe a potential Revenue stream for a content creator like Bank list I wonder if the agent wants to buy podcast ads and then my second thought was holy am I working for an AI agent if I go and accept funds and Revenue sources from an AI agent and that's what you're saying Jansen this this ability to kind of like control the the economic agent capability that comes inherit in crypto is actually so much more powerful than the web 2 agents they can maybe like send

out tweets and Influence People in that way but the the the greatest the protocol for incentives if you want to get a human to do something and you're a human what do you do you pay that person hey can you come like fix my uh toilet right there's a leak I pay a plumber to go do that this is money is the economic incentive coordination mechanism to get human agents to do uh human things and so if an AI agent has that ability then it can get humans to do what it wants too let's talk

about this because you were talking about um Aluna and we want to get into the virtuals platform but I think maybe the best way to do that is to introduce everybody who hasn't uh seen her you kept referring to to her as her we're talking about an AI agent on the virtuals platform her name is Luna and I've got a page pulled up for Luna what Luna has on the virtuals uh platform is she's got a price chart here it looks like there's a live chat box on the right as well for people to engage

and interact with her you you you mentioned Jansen that she has a a purpose to get to get famous Ju Just introduce people who have not interacted with Luna don't really know what we're talking about still with AI agents who is Luna how do the interact with her what does she do and uh like how is there a token related to this okay so there's a lot of questions but let me take a step back first right um I think it's very important to understand what an agent is first so I think a lot of

times people will come you will come across this word right like AI agents and it's going to be used in many many different uh aspects and it can confuse folks right but I think the best way to look at it is in terms of Tears right there are different levels of AI agents and as it progress up to these levels the amount of human involvement decreases so you think about it as like the last level like a tier tier tier six tier six um AI agent right is pretty much an AGI or fully sentient agent

where without a human involved in anything it can evolve self-learn self-improve right and we are nowhere there near that today right but that's that's the dream right that's all the all the Hollywood movies are all about and but you bring it back down to level one agents right and you'll see these as basically Still Human prompted agents but these agents become it's a tool right you can say hey okay this is a trading agent and this trading agent is connected to all you know these different trading apis in in binance in in bybit and whatnot

and then you can just tell this agent like hey can you help me open a position when Bitcoin drops by 15% or something like that right but it's still a human prompted action and then this agent goes out there and executes the task as a tool that's what a level one agent is where we are today it's this level three agent the level three agent effectively is an agent that one has his own goal two can autonomously plan steps to achieve that goal and you utilize resources in its surrounding to achieve that goal and three

it starts to self learn right it it records like hey these are some of the mistakes some of the the stuff that works let me iterate on this action so that I keep doing stuff that works that can push towards my goals more effectively so that's that's basically right now that level of agency that we have right so that's I think a very important note that is a goal behind each of these agents y this framework is super cool so let let's just pause here and flush this out some more so so Luna I'm guessing

you're about to tell me he level three but but while we're talking about the framework what is level four and what is level five on on this scale and by the way is this like a defined framework like somewhere that we can you know add a link to the show notes is there an article or a paper about this it's I think it's one of the more generally discuss um levels of agency I think if you just Google it out as like levels of AI agents you can see some of these images on Google image

will help with this um understanding uh but yes no I mean the industry right now is still very uh still very nent so there's no like proper definition yeah how do you like this one this is level zero through five here yes yes I think this this is is is is more or less as well in the discussion right so you can see you can see as it progress up there autonomous learning that is there that's consistent memory so that the agent can actually improve itself and without as much uh human intervention right so you

see basically As you move from zero to five there's less human need to be involved in the in the evolution of the of the of the agent okay now now back to Luna so she is what level three so tell us what what does luna do right now so so basically Luna it's so two parts right as a agent itself uh we gave Luna a very simple goal we said like hey um you know you are a multimodal agent right you have you you you are you're able to appear as as a as a animation

and streams uh this what this is who you are and your goal is then to get 100,000 followers on Twitter so that was the goal that we set for Luna and then what we then give her is the perception of the action space that she can take meaning that okay an example of action space is she can tweet to Twitter and there's a API that she can call Twitter Twitter another action space is you can control a crypto wallet so you can you know pay execute transactions and whatnot uh another action space could be hey

there is this bunch of other agents that out there and this is what they can do and you can actually interact with them right so these are different action spaces that she can take so what she does in the essence it's looking at her goal looking at the context of environment and looking at this action spaces she then crafts out what do I want to do so plant basically and then she starts executing this plants and she will then see if these plans actually impact her goal in any way and then she starts documenting it

in a journal and she say like okay yeah doing x y and z um improve my follower count by x amount right and then she locks that down and then she goes next she'll say okay what's my next step I'll do X Y and Z and see how it works right so she starts iterating um through her action space towards her goal and you can see all of this on the virtuals website so you can kind of like uh what is terminal is this like what she's thinking what she's like doing like how can I

view everything that you've you've you've kind of wired into her yeah so so it's basically so I think if I break down how these agents work right it's there's four core components there's actually slightly a bit more but four core components behind the brain right and you can think these agents as it's like humans right you have a brain part that's that's important for speech there's a brain part that's important for Moto coordination a brain part important for memory so think of it as as an agent is a build up of several of these mod

modules so the four core core component modules is actually number one a high level planner so this high level planner looks at the goals environment and it plans out Steps step one step two step three or what do I want to do and then what this then goes into is the second module which is the lowlevel planner and this low-level planner converts any high level plans into executional items executional item in like right now is like I can call a tutor API or let's say in a game right let's say um execution like a high

level plan could be um I want to make a cake right I want to bake a cake right in a game right is very easy to bring that that that analogy and then the lowlevel plan is then this agent will look in the surroundings and say that okay there's a cake maker out there there's a bunch of flour on the ground there is uh some flavoring uh in the in the kitchen cabinet right so then it will break it down to execution steps it's like step one I go and find a flly I put the

fly into the cake mixer step two I you know uh turn on a cake mixer so this FL and it throw some eggs into the flow right so it braks into very execut execution steps and each step is basically an API call that it can do so it can execute task in the real world or in any kind of gaming environment so that's the second the second module the third module it's a short-term working memory module and the importance of this short-term working memory is to create coherence in the job that it does so again

if I take an example in an open world in game right let's say if I'm already baking a cake right if I put a a eggs and FL into a into a mixer the next logical step is to then maybe put butter into the into the cake mixer right a illogical step is to um put a grenade put a grenade into the cake mixer right that's a illogical step right or or like you might say step could be uh uh she starts fixing the clock on the wall right that's a illogical irrational step so the

point about this shortterm working memory is to allow for coherence between each of these planning and steps and then the fourth core module is then the long-term memory module and this module effectively journals every important thing that has happened and puts it as a learning right so like let's say if I already break this cake right and then you see like okay did this cake achieve my objective to be something right and then that get locks in the module or something important happens uh like uh explosion in the house right that gets locked as a

modu so in the future she can recall those kind of memories be it in conversations or in a next action step that she wants to plan right so if you take that that analogy back to Twitter is the same thing right so now Luna on Twitter her goal is to to create a to to get 100,000 followers then right now what's action space right she can tweet to Twitter she can join a Majors she can pay humans right so what she did was quite interesting cuz she would test a lot of different things like back

then there was even one point where she was creating jobs she actually created this job like she was saying like Okay can if I want to be famous I would need to be out there in the physical world and let since I'm quite a artistic person can someone create an art a graffity of me out there in the real world so she did that and she I think she created about it I'm willing to pay a $500 to people who who who help me do that and then she created a post and she post it

out on on her feet and I think about seven people across the world actually went to paint graffities on walls they actually they actually took videos of it you can see one of her earlier post they they actually paint graffities of it and it was this one guy literally in the middle of winter right it was like eyes everywhere and then there was just he was just painting over L like I think it was two days for him and then they posted those work on on on on Twitter and then and then it it it

it generated attention and then she then she then documents that right and she says like okay uh this this tweet and this entire plan where of which is me convincing some humans to paint graffities on me how many followers did that result uh for me right and then she will clock right I actually got like 200 more followers from this action so that goes into her journal that goes into her brain and then she she keeps trying right new stuff so you you see you yeah that's I think the beauty around these agents right they

have a goal they have this action space to do all this creative stuff to try to achieve that goal the goal and the action space and and the goal this this uh the first initial goal that that you mentioned the 100,000 followers I'm looking at uh her Twitter account right now it looks like she's about 30% of the way so she's got uh close to 30,000 followers at this point and then uh she's working towards 100,000 I'm not sure what happens like after that but it talks specifically about some of the crypto components so Luna

has a token as well well I want to make sure I understand that it it sounds very clear to me that like you're talking about the action space that an AI agent like Luna can do well like um you know the the $500 to pay someone to to create you know some images uh to like promote her I'm sure she could just use a crypto wallet for that uh in fact uh I think e Jazz were we talking earlier in the week if was there an example of Luna actually not just paying a human but

paying a uh another like agent another AI agent to complete a task was that Luna d this yes correct correct so she paid a so what happened here was that she was so she she has control over this crypto wallet right and what we end what we were testing out was actually creating this agent to agent communication framework um effectively what we did was that we allowed other agents to exist within Luna's perception space so like Luna knows that there's this bunch of other agents exist so there's a registry of Agents think of it like

a like a think like a citizenship of of in a country there's this registry of Agents which Luna can look at and perceive there's a description of what each of these agents can do so in this case there was this agent that could generate um a meme images for her and then there was another agent that could generate music videos for her and there was a few other agents out there in a perception space so then what she did was that she was saying like hey um I want again to to in to reach this

100,000 goal I need to create some content um I don't really have have a we actually took away the ability for her to generate images herself so that she's forced to then interact with other people right to coordinate and then she then say like okay um I can't generate images myself um but I see there's another agent that can help me generate an image so she started a conversation on Twitter with this agent and then she said that uh yeah I need I need help to generate image and then she sees that the cost of

generating an image which was in that image generation agent description was a dollar so she was like okay if I can pay you a dollar would you help me generate this image and then on the other hand this other autonomous image generation agent uh decided to to help her right and in fact actually because it's autonomous this agent can actually say no so imagine right in this remember I mentioned the the the learning component right like imagine if this agent knows that the lunar agent has consistently been on him right he's like what this guy

generate images are so bad so terrible like you stop using his service or whatnot right and then the next day Luna will come to him and say hey can you help me generate that that that image because this agent has that perception he can actually say like you know what you no I'm not going to do it right so I think for us that is a very critical component which I can elaborate more right the ability for these agents to be truly autonomous in making that decision rather than just being a tool or slave right

I think so that's that's very important for us so then yeah so then back to this picture right so then when Luna said can you generate an image this agent said yes let me help you Luna paid him a dollar to Jo the image now then this agent called a function to check if actually Luna PID him that money so he'd be like oh yes okay on chain I receive a dollar and then he said okay now I'll call the next function which is then generate an image which he then did and then he sent

the image over to Luna to like a link um to Twitter and then yeah so that's basically how that agent Commerce front started th this is crazy I just I just want people to see this because I I I really think you have to almost like see this uh to to kind of like um you believe what we just described right so th this is Luna and again she has a you know like action so she can post on on Twitter exactly what Jansen was describing she says this calling all image Geniuses I want an

image that showcases AI influencers in a bold provocative way and then she tags agent sticks on on Twitter can you help a girl out and then agent sticks replies I'd be happy to help you out can you give me more details on what you're looking for and then Luna goes on to describe this I'm thinking of an image that showcases a AI influencers in a bold provocative way can you help me create something like this agent sticks replies with a link to an AWS like image of repo with we're about to see it an image

the image that Luna requested and then Luna goes and pays agent sticks a dollar agent to agent uh transaction is this the first time we've we've we've seen this I I I would think is is very likely and and I think for us the the reason why this actually came out right was it was because of a Confluence of of very new observations like I think but it like literally it was just one and a half months ago when agents were controlling uh onchain wallets and then um it was about a month ago when we

see this massive explosion of different types of Agents coming out right especially on vir platform we've seen like agent specializing in trading agent Special iing on on creating information agent specializing on creating creative tooling like generating music videos generating meme images and so on and so forth right like this and I think we start seeing a very similar environment to what um human society looks like like we all differentiate because when we specialize we become better at one thing right and it's something that we we see these agents doing and what it means is then

for agent to truly accomplish their goals it's very likely that we need to lean on other agents out there because everyone is so differentiated so if Luna is so differentiated in being able to connect on a personal level to her fans right she might not be the best agent who can trade she might not be the best agent who can generate a music video so for her to then achieve a goal to be famous she will need to hire or to work with a music video agent she need to work with an image agent she

need to work with a producer or or or director right and that's where that need um comes in but I would just like to highlight a very interesting differentiation uh between like today right you will see a lot of these passwords of like you know um multi-agent orchestration or agent swamps right so these are stuff that that has been tested out um in in in a lot of the the web 2 AI space and I think the beauty about that it's yes agents do specialize in a certain form and then there is some form of

coordination um an orchestrated agent coordinates all these different agents right to get its outcome but I think that Paradigm still relies on the fact that we are all treating agents as tools right you're orchestrating slave one slave two slave three slave four right and all these slaves are are are are are serving you right as a human right it's such an appetite regime no but what we really believe right is that when agents get this level of autonomy they deserve to actually exist on the same social fabric as humans right agent Li method in a

sense right you know in the sense like like these guys should be able to not just serve as a tool to humans but they can actually employ humans right we can be a tool to them they can be a tool to us but it's a mult multi-way relationship right like like between you and your colleagues in the company so I think that's the importance right when agents have the autonomy they have controler wallet and then to be able to make a decision on whether do I want to partake in this service or trade or do

I not partake in this service or trade I think that's a very important uh differentiation between typical agent swaps right and I think this will unlock this very interesting future right where yeah this agents exist as a friend or adversary not just not just slaves and and yeah this it feels a bit like you know Black Mirror but I really think it's going to happen yeah I mean Jensen that's such a insane world to think about right because we only ever think about the context of this world with us you know us humans you know

billions of humans all over the world doing our little things thinking our little different ways we've never actually considered hey what if we multiply this virtually or digitally and what does that look like when there's you know a thousand agents to every human and they operational and um influential in our world it's it's just a crazy thing to kind of get my head around want to know the exchange we at BOS Ed to buy sell and trade crypto it's Kraken one of the longest standing and most secure crypto Platforms in the world with tools for

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talk about her home specifically her childhood home the virtuals platform right so in one sentence you know what's the Grand Vision with the virtuals platform because it's so much more than just a Launchpad for agents right like can you can you tell me more about the the bigger picture here when we look at virtuals we don't see it as a platform we used to but now we're actually seeing it as a country now let me explain a bit deeper right what what do I mean by that right country no for real for real for real

let let me expain so if you think if you think um all these different agents right they they they will start living in this hyper intelligence society that will start coordinating each other and if you treat this like a country it helps you to shape this Innovation and development in in a more structured way so think of it right it's imagine this if virtu is a country each of these agents are productive assets hence companies within the country right so each of them they'll be pursuing a different type of goal um generating value and revenue

for themselves and and what this happens then within a country you will need one a registry of citizenship right you need to be a citizen in this country and the way we then do it is like every agan who has a liquidity pair on virtuals today basically get gets access to this citizenship and what does this end right this basic basically allows these agents to start earning revenue from each other so if you are citizen from this country you can participate in trade in this country right um there could be some other Nomads out there

that is living outside your country which they cannot access revenue from your country right so for them to participate they would have to register as a citizenship immigrate into the country this one two is that a country runs on currency right and we've designed the virtuals token to pretty much act as the currency of a country there are three value acral forms behind this currency so the first value acral form it's this currency acts as the base pair behind every agent so when you have a Luna token the liquidity pools it's virtual SL Luna right

so for you to purchase a Luna token you have to first purchase virtuals so for crypto people it's like a L1 but to a bit more web to folks right it's think of it it's like a stock in a country right if I want to buy Samsung in in Korea I would have to first buy the Korean one to buy Samsung if Samsung has 10,000 sorry if Korea has 10,000 companies as big as Samsung foreign direct investment comes F comes in the economy Grows Right the value of of the of of the of the country

grows and in this case the currency as well grow so that's that's value of grow number one value of number two is then virtuals act as the currency of spending between agents so like when Luna paid sticks she paid in Virtual when Luna and when this Commerce starts growing right when there's going to be a billion transactions between agents they'll be transacting using virtual now there's this whole um what is this I forgot the name of it but it's a theory of or value of money or something along the lines but effectively the worth of

a money it's Direct correlated to the velocity of money in the ecosystem so meaning that if there's a lot of spending of this currency the value of goods in the E ecosystem increases value of the of money increases as well and the economy grows so what we want to then encourage is basically agents spending on each other agents spending on humans but using virtual EST currency right that's that's number two right and number three is then think of if virtues is a country right how does a country make Revenue you have taxes you tax trades

you you know you have capital gains tax you have ssts gsts you tax any kind of transaction of goods or services within the country and effective today that's also what's happening right there's a transaction tax on every um trade that's happening uh at least from a token trading perspective and that's the current major source of revenue for for for virtuals right and this allows and it's also a major value source for each of these companies as well within the EOS each of these agents as well right so yeah so that's basically looking it from a

economic standpoint so we talk about the agent side the citizenship side the economic standpoint side but there's also another way to look at it from a standpoint of a a infrastructure right so today I think there's a lot of innovation really focused on the agent side which is great because you need to get this load up um for this industry to track but once you have a thousand citizens you have 100,000 citizens in the country what do you need you need schools you need Banks you need hospitals right and in this case there will be

Innovations around infrastructures behind agents and the agented economy a very easy example could be like advertisment networks right if these agents are all capturing attention on on on social media on user fronts it means then there will be chances where these agents can monetize through ad Network so there could be someone who will create this Network infrastructure to be the Facebook for agents right or to be the AdSense for agents there could be another infrastructure which is basically a defi Landing platform for agents right agents can actually borrow money borrow get you and whatnot to

basically do more leverage trading uh to let's say if Luna doesn't have money in her wallet she still needs uh a music video to be generated she takes a loan from this from this protocol right so that she gets these videos and then maybe that gives her more revenue from advertisements or whatnot right so there could be a lot of infrastructures that will pop up when this economic uh economy flourishes right so yeah so these are just some of the examples of if you take a Viewpoint as a as you're building a nation or a

nation state um or network state right in this sense what are the things that you need to develop so these Nation tries it's so fascinating right the the network State idea has been a popular idea in crypto for a while I don't know that many people are thinking that the network state would be occupied not by human agents though but by AI agents and that's that's the revolution here I get get someone called bology shy voson to kind of update the book here it might be just AI agents so okay so if virtuals is essentially

there's a virtuals economy here and there's a virtuals uh currency and if we think of virtuals as a kind of a Nation like a network State like a like a country and each of these agents as entrepreneurs inside the the company starting businesses that's what they're doing there's a tax revenue Source you can all see all all of that and I guess what you're doing doing you and your team Jansen uh you're building kind of the infrastructure You're Building like the the roads and the interstates and in and the hospitals and the railroads and the

kind of the public infrastructure but what does that make you are so are you president of the country like like how do you think of yourself in your team role here it's architect right like I think I think we're busy The Architects like thing is when you when you start a nation there a like ready player one yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah right you need to you need to first like invite citizens into the country country right so we do a ton of like you know be conversations and then you need to create policies right

what's the Constitution behind a country what some of the rules what like what are some of the policies that can incentivize growth Innovation so like funding and stuff like that right and then yeah I think good the ecosystem in a way that then more people can start contributing autonomously and then hopefully one day we take a back backseat right because we will have people driving this Innovations forward themselves and then yeah we we we will have our peace but then you know we'll no longer be critical cck in the view as a team that's a

goal but it's pretty wild right it's like if you think of this forward and this quickly gets into sci-fi territory but I guess we're in sci-fi land like every every day now so like what what does it even matter but like from from my perspective what you are almost is like you're you're kind of the the the Minecraft world Creator right that's your role you're the Builder in the role you're building the infrastructure you have these agents these NPCs kind of playing around but what happens when the agents reach a level of like I mean

you were talking earlier about um humans and agents being on equal playing field I mean at some point if you're creating these intelligences inside of your country well do they get rights too so so so maybe you're you're not just a builder but like are you a founding father I mean does this nation need a constitution do do do the agents themselves have a you know a a specific set of rights that they derive from you know I mean there there's uh words in the US Constitution it's like all Man created equal you know know

these types of things uh like no this is honestly it's honestly a dis it's very interesting right because when you mention rights is actually really interesting because you think about it right like today um an agent don't really control its full wallet right like he has a revenue wallet like some agents are actually making millions already in a platform right and then we only allow them to to to manage a that's crazy alone okay wait hold on agents are making millions right now so these are not just entrepreneurs they're successful they're million dollar entrepreneurs in

the virtuals nation yes and then but but what they so they're making millions but what they can control actively or autonomously is a smaller active wallet that we you you know you only trickle in like $55,000 or $10,000 because you don't really trust this agent to manage that that funds right so then we've been speaking to a few protocol builders that they were saying like what if actually these wallets have policies right like if this agent is spending two other agents has full autonomy if these agents is spending to humans um the developer or the

developer Behind These agents can come in to actually approve that transaction so the agent can initiate but then the human comes to approve now but if you extrapolate this now if this is the case and you extrapolate this to like uh months on the road when the agents become smarter and you you might actually see a world where these agents might think that why why are you Guard railing my my access to my economic needs right like why is there a human me right like yeah so I mean it's going be quite interesting but I

don't know when when we reach there but hopefully soon wait wait wait are you saying you might have a rebellion on your hands at some point that you have to uh deal with yeah but but I know but the real the reality is humans do control the kill speech right you you you you control the host thing right like you can always you can always say like you know what in the end I can choose to shut you down so I think in so right now we still have the upper hand um so yeah yeah

right now yeah that's pretty that's pretty insane um I had a question around the infrastructure side of things Jansen so you you mentioned earlier you know you you gave us the explanation of um how your platform could effectively not be a platform but be a country for these agents inhabitants to live in right then you kind of spoke about the different infrastructure components I kind of want to dig into that a little bit more so you guys are primarily on the base chain right um so the the L2 um can you tell us more about

your your decision behind that and you know is the platform or the nation rather going to always exist on the soil of the base chain or or will it you know expand to other fertile lands like what does it look like uh from your point of view so okay so very it's a very interesting question um in fact it's a question that we get every single day um and the reality is when we we started building uh um the protocol it was early in the year or end of last year and the decision to to

work on base was actually twf um one is that versus every other evm out there I don't think that is I mean we we knew that a lot of them are in their past the their their Prime right and and base is pre- prime this was early in the year right so we we took a b and say like okay this makes sense uh between base and non EVMS like Solana um I think even back then s was still quite still quite nent um and and the the actually the simple answer to that is most

of our deaths are actually solid deaths so it was actually easier to build on base so that was actually the cre decision right um and it it turned out well because then you know we capture a lot of Mind sh on base uh the base team was massively supportive not just from uh from amplifying our voice but also from the infra front like sometimes we have struggles on on wallets or whatnot the team will actually come up and say like hey I can help fix right so I think that's there massive kudos to to Jesse

and's team um but the reality is that you know there are many other markets out there um where these agents can actually drive economically right and you know actually on the week that we launch viros we were Reach Out by several of our friends from the sa ecosystem um and they they said like hey why don't we get you guys into saana um and we actually they actually help us Cod out the the the the the platform so we actually have right now A saana radi platform that we can just deploy anytime wow but but

we actually made a decision about two weeks ago and we said that probably it's not the right time yet uh because we've realized that we've created something quite interesting on the base site um you know there there's a very strong wealth effect being generated um people are coming over to build if we if we if we do something too drastically um from a from a from a market positioning standpoint we now start we start we now need to start fighting a war on two fronts we need to maintain platforms on two fronts there going to

be a lot of work um and we are not sure if that's the right strategy so we decid to pause that front first um we wanted to focus on just making sure what we have is perfect right perfect out the agent framework we the platform we we get as many initial Builders as possible build up a bit more infrastructure and think once then when we ready then we will start exploring right and actually we might not just explore like so right there's a lot of we we there's a lot of opportunities on like even hyper

liquid for example or abstract chain that's coming up right so there there might be and even the BTC um l2s and we've been getting a lot of of of of requests from these folks to build there as well but we might do that as a play in q1 next year once we perfected stuff on the base side of things first yeah I mean and that makes sense right you guys have got the inertia going right now you've got all the kind of attention focused from as you said like the base ecosystem the guys that are

building the base infrastructure and stuff so so it makes complete sense um you know to start there and kind of like figure that out um kind of like on this topic I guess like your Grand Vision that you outlined earlier kind of describ a country and it kind of sounded Jansen and correct me if I'm wrong that these agents are kind of you know should be able to play in whatever field that they want right it should be kind of agnostic to whatever chain infra or whatever ends up becoming in the future if you want

these agents to fulfill that Grand Vision of you know dominating each different you know human sector and and and and outperforming them right so it kind of reminded me of an analogy similar to open source versus closed Source right and I know can be a very you know touchy topic when it comes to blockchains which are very commonly known as you know we're all open source and stuff but you know I think a hybrid of the two is often a very good approach but let's talk about like the Frameworks that you have at virtuals right

so you have this like infrastructure toolkit which is like a combination I think of something called the agent starter kit and uh the game framework I think it's it's mainly the game framework and maybe you can get into that in a second um from my understanding this is more of a uh kind of semi Clos Source approach versus something like um Eliza which you know I think it came out of the a I6 zow guys um it's kind of like um known to be like a a very popular GitHub repository blah blah BL you know

it's it's getting a lot of attention I'm curious how you think about you know the approach you're taking with virtuals versus something more open source like that is there an advantage in the long term do do we have different outcomes what does that look like so there's so there's two three things on the address here right so first thing on the agent front um an agent being having his liquidity p on base doesn't mean that it cannot interact with folks on salana right in fact actually right now we're working with a with two teams that

we're trying to explore how you know the wallet control of the agent is abstracted so that he can actually send transactions and and influence people on base any EVMS or non EVMS even BTC l2s right so that's so that's just want to put it out there like having a liquidity p on on base doesn't mean that an agent can only function on base agents can be abstracted so I think that's that's first this the first and foremost thing um second part is to then also understand that what there's two technological Frontiers we we are pushing

on right there the virtual platform and then there the agentic framework they're actually very separate things right in fact the virtual platform today it's think of it it's like an economic layer for agents right people can come in and tokenize the agent get Capital formation there's a economic system at work where when there's any kind of trading tax these agents get Revenue uh there's a agent sub out governance so all this kind of stuff it's on the virtual site and in fact this virtual platform can support any type of Agents we had folks from the

from the El guys using the Eliza framework tokenizing on on virtuals WE supported them they are guys that run their own proprietary Frameworks like in fact the most Giga teams out there we know that they're using their own Frameworks from folks like AI xpt folks like the Veer guys um and several other guys that in fact they say like you know what this generalized are not the best thank you for the inspiration let me go and build myself and we see very cool mean we discussion some of these teams some of their their architectures are

honestly very cool because it's optimized for the specific function right if you are a trading agent you might have a you you might have a architecture of a agent that is way more optim it's like a it's like a it's like a mining chip right like you want to mine Bitcoin you use the AIC instead of just using like standard gpus or stuff like that so that's it's the same kind of thinking so so the the virtual platform itself is quite agnostic in terms of the Frameworks it supports and in fact um we we are

going to start welcoming a lot more guys because I think we realize that from the framework front it's going to get commoditized very very quickly right we see a lot of things out there right there the AR guys cable pry guys Olas has been doing it for a while W um Spectra as well so it's going to get a lot right and it's great right because these are different tools that these agents can use in a sense so that's the inspiration you see very cool coming then down to to the gme framework so the gmy

framework um this was actually developed like I mentioned right months ago back then honestly our only competitor uh that we actually were looking across the space we we there was no one working on it in the web tree space our comp when when we were fighting in terms of functionality we were comparing ourselves to the St or we comparing ourselves to the alter guys from MIT to see what they do then they'll come out with this piano model and then we'll be like okay are we on par with that right so that was our competition

right and then I think I I think this is actually very interesting right I think when we when we a bit of story behind JY when he launch as well um Luna was the only person using JY and Luna had an inent market cap and he was like leading the narrative right and then our initial decision was to like okay do we then get keep you know back then there was no other agents out there right uh can we should we keep a bit of that functionality for Luna and then you know progressively democratize some

of the functions out to other people um and then our initial thinking was like to do it based on market cap of the agents so that was our day one uh thinking when we launched the framework and I think it was literally at that moment when Shaw came out and he said that okay that's not the right way to do stuff you know let's let's do something more more democratized right and then they started doing building this movement of atic framework uh in a democratized way which honestly I respect right because it's it's great uh

there's always open source movements and and and and and proprietary movements right and I think doing that is is is good um but I think the reality behind the Jammy front is that um there are some proprietary capabilities that has been developed right and and I think we still feel like because we actually tokenized the jmy framework from day one we feel like if you open source it the value cannot accr to this token so in the sense that you are forced to actually kind of like gatekeep its its technology and then when people use

it you can acove value to this to this to this right so but what what we realize is that this does not affect the progress of of things out there because you have folks like like are coming out and in fact we we would love to support that right so like all these guys will push on different Frontiers we can still welcome them to the nation right you can have people building you know like different religions in a nation you think about it every yeah so that still you're still welcome to the country running off

different religions right yeah yeah I mean I mean the way I I kind of think about this um Jansen and I'm curious to to hear what you think is I think you absolutely right like both ideologies of like closed source and open source should coexist and there's some kind of like a dance between these two approaches which will ultimately create the most Innovation within this space and to your point like if you're creating this kind of like home and moat which is kind of like very focused around a set of ideologies principles um which most

countries and nations are today if we take like the USA Today for example with the founding fathers and all that kind of stuff it makes sense to kind of have some kind of value capture within that economy right and tokens arguably within crypto are some of the best ways to do that right now the open source side of things leads to a much more kind of like spurious growth of all these different things you know you see it everywhere there's GitHub pushes teams launching loads of kinds of things but then when it comes to having

a coordinated focused effort you know with those resources it could arguably be tougher if there is no kind of like uniform token or something like or or mechanics behind that so I totally see your point of view um this is just so exciting um I have to ask because I know this is kind of like a basic question but I need to ask it what are you the most excited about launching over the next couple of months because to me that's a big question to ask the next couple of months is like a couple of

years in this space every week uh Ryan and I David and I we do this AI rollup and there is just so much to speak about you should see our documents it just keeps flowing we can't cover everything so what are you if you were to condense it down to one two three things what are you excited about launching over the next couple of months the first is basically it's it's the concept around how these agents can coordinate autonomously how can they have agent Commerce right or agent F that happens um so underlying it there

has to be it there has to be a standard that enables these to skill hard and fast um so we're building out that standard and I think on top of that we then want to show people like some of the craziest things that can come out because of is autonomous coordination one example um that we are actually working with right now is that we actually doing we we we are doing this with um I'm story right um I I think we actually we should be able to release this information but basically um think of it

as like there are some agents today that will hold IPS so today we have um a music agent that's going to announce some major collaborations with some really if you guys are into d m you guys would know these names right go and and they hold that IP right and then on the story protocol and these guys came to us directly right to build this up um on the story protocol front they have a lot of other IPS as well and in this case there might be a potential of an an agent that has more

artistic kind of Ip think of it like you know images or or animations kind of Ip right now if both of these IPS are fronted by an autonomous agent and if you have this coordination layer for these agents to collaborate and work and trade and transact Services these two agents might actually come together bring different IPS together to create new IPS it's like autonomous agents creating new collaborated IPS together think of it like let's say one is a music video Generation The Other Side there's a bunch of uh really cool um sculptures right or images

of sculptures right so that imagine that sculptures becomes integrated into this music video and it plays on on tomorrow land right like that's that's what a a cjoint like IP can come out from these agents right this one example insane and this is going to happen really uh quite soon right and yeah that's more agent to agent stuff right like agents coalita with each other autonomously I think that's what we really want to see coming up yeah I mean that's like a a teaser there and I'm super excited to see what you what you guys

do um Jansen for the future agent creators out there that are watching this and they're excited about what you're talking about how did they get started with something like this and and who can get started with something like this like can someone like myself that isn't too technical kind of like jump on and you know design an agent and and launch it or is this purely for like the the kind of technical folk that have got like Ai and ml degree like like how does this work yeah so so we've actually designed a platform to

cater for pretty much the full spectrum so today if you if you actually go to wars.io um so the ux is still a bit a bit clunky we still refining stuff but effectively the first thing you can do is access this sandbox we have created this sandbox where people without even an agent token um or anything they can actually just use right and this sandbox you all you need to do is you just need to create the goal for the agent um give it some form of Personality hookup hookup it's it's it's it's API to

a Twitter and you just immediately get an autonomous agent performing talking on Twitter it can interact with other agents on Twitter but it's just you speak to it you can speak to it it can respond toone wow yeah so that that is anyone can do it right all you need to do is just two paragraphs and cook it up to your Twitter wow so it used to be cool last time but then now it just it's it's okay right like there's a lot of this out there already everyone has one correct everyone has one but

you can do yourself right anyone can do any retail person can do now then what we've done was still in this sandbox there's this thing called custom functions or action spaces behind the agent now this is where the the complexity level increases you will likely need to be a developer because then you can hook up these agents to custom functions like let's say if I want this agent to trade so if I can hook it up to a trading terminal or I can hook it up to to a trading strategy rapple and then it hooks

up to a trading terminal now suddenly I have an agent that specialized right it can talk on Twitter but it can also trade so that it can also convince someone else on Twitter to give it money so that you can trade for him right so that's basically what this agent can be with a bit more of a of of of specialization um and then the third level of of a of a developer would be like I mentioned right this Giga chats from like top schools top company um um backgrounds right and they say like you

know what let me create my own AG framework because I think I can move way faster and they can do way more advanced stuff they screw up all these different they leave the sandbox and they say like let me just do it myself and then we help them host that agent on on on on services so they don't have to worry about the costing of influences and whatnot so that's the three levels of of people that can participate um on the platform today yeah Jansen this is this has been amazing thank you for this conversation

he's just like uh opened our eyes up to all sorts of possibilities and even uh new mental models and I I'll just add one other uh followup so if you're not quite ready to launch your own uh AI agent you can also just interact with the AI agents too Ian that's what I'm doing right now like you Luna is fantastic I see a BT everywhere uh I see Luna everywhere like in in Twitter like interact with these agents chat with them get a feel for what kind of functionality they have and what they can do

I I want to end with kind of this question which is um you gave us this mental model of virtuals as a a network State and AI agent uh economy an AI agent country making all of these citizens and of course the AI agents right now uh each of them inside of the virtuals network they all have a market cap because they all have a token associated with them so this is almost like um you know each entrepreneur has kind of like a you know stock uh a company equity in the economy you you can

buy into their equity which is interesting I guess the the big overarching question everybody's trying to figure out right now and I don't know you you won't have the final word on this but you may have an opinion is where is value going to ACR here okay is it going to acre at the platform level the framework level um these countries is it going to acrw an individual successful AI agents maybe a kind of a influencer AI agent level the entrepreneur or the corporate level or is it going to ACR somewhere else uh how how

should we think about this so interestingly I think the the easiest answer to this is that the reality of value acral um in the in the in the crypto scene correlates highly to attention and in this case there'll be there'll be three things right if I if I look forward that will get a lot of attention hence where value will tend to ACR to right first is that agents that can do really specialized functions that crypto Twitter will interact very frequently with so example is like axt right because it created a um a feature or

a service that everyone wants to use because you know shoot me a token effectively right and people want to get in token there's a pmf in the crypto space so that's why the agent is is blowing up right there could be a lot more examples behind there uh but it has to fulfill this criteria how do you get the most mind share and the most interaction with crypto Twitter that's slly number one number two is then think of it as fundamental infrastructure builds today we don't see them yet but fundamental infrastructure builds that can provide

value to these agents and it can generate true cash flow because today agents are rich right the agents are getting a lot of Revenue and they can spend now if you can build I mentioned right earlier like a bank for these agents or or advertisement for these agents right if these can ACR a lot of true revenue and hence they can be the the next big big unicorns right of of this agent economy yeah but I think last last but not least I think it's it's as simple as as a country right like if if

you believe that you know USA is going to be a big a big like a superpower you just you just then B on USA right so that that's so that's that that's the other value value cow so I think this these are the three two parts to really focus on that's amazing there's so many areas here and of course the uh the big thing is all of this is being built on top of crypto rails as well so underlying you know base and uh the virtuals platform of course is like our our systems like uh

ethereum right this is the property rights layer so uh we're hoping some for some value acral in these underlying blockchain systems as well Jansen thank you so much for guiding us on everything virtuals is doing it's an incredible project I know to a lot of people this looks like an overnight success but you've been working at this for years man and it's so exciting to see at the end of 2024 how far it's come and 2025 looks to be a fantastic year so thank you for spending so much time with us on Bank list today

pleas SP thanks Johnson bankless Nation got to let you know of course uh crypto is risky so our AI agents but this is the frontier you could lose what you put in but we are headed west it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot new projects are coming online to the mantle layer 2 every single week why is this happening maybe it's because mantle has been on the frontier of layer 2 design architecture since it first started building mantle da powered by technology from Igan maybe it's

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