Google DeepMind C.E.O. Demis Hassabis on Living in an A.I. Future | EP 137

This year, Google talked about AI very differently. This time, they want you to sit up. They want you to lean in. They want you to pay them $250. And they want you to get to work. I've been working every hour there is for the last 20 years because I've felt the how important and momentous this this technology would be, whether it's 5 years or 10 years or 2 years that they're all actually quite short timelines when you're talking discussing what the the enormity of the transformation of this techn you know, this technology is going to

bring. when you when I see a Van Go, you know, hairs going up the back of my my my spine because of I remember what they went through and um the struggle to produce that right in every brush stroke of Van Go's brush strokes. Even if the AI mimicked that and you were told that it was like so what? [Music] Now there's a very large what looks like a circus tent over there. What do you think's going on in there? That is Shane amphitheater. Oh, that's the amphitheater under that tent yesterday. I thought that was

just some carnival that they were setting up for employees. Okay, my mistake. I thought Ringling Brothers had entered into a partnership with the Google. It's a revival tent. They're bringing Christianity back. I'm Kevin Roose, a tech columnist at the New York Times. I'm Casey Newton from Platformer and this is Hardfork. This week, our field trip to Google. We'll tell you all about everything the company announced at its biggest show of the year. Then Google DeepMind CEO Demis Hassabis returns to the show to discuss the road to AGI, the future of education, and what life could

look like in 2030. Kevin being very old for starters. Somebody did ask me, text me to ask why I freaking yell the name of the show every episode. And did you say it's cuz I started yelling my name? I said it's because of the cold brew. Well, Casey, our decor is a little different this week. Mhm. It's I'll say it. It looks better. Yes. We are not in our normal studio in San Francisco. We are down in Mountain View, California, where we are inside Google's headquarters. I'm just thrilled to be sitting here surrounded by so

much training data. That's what they call books here at Google. So, we are here because this week is Google's annual developer conference, Google IO. There were many, many announcements from a parade of Google executives about all the AI stuff that they have coming. And uh we are going to talk in a little bit with uh Dennis Sabis who is the CEO of Google DeepMind uh essentially their AI division who's been driving a lot of these AI projects forward. Um but first let's just sort of set the scene for people uh because I don't think we

have ever been together at an IO before. So what is it like? So Google IO has a bit of a festival atmosphere. It takes place at the Shoreline Amphitheater which is a concert venue. Uh, but once a year it gets transformed into a sort of nerd concert where instead of seeing musicians perform, you see Google employees vibe coding on stage. Yes, there was a vibe coding demo. Um, there were many other things. I I did actually see as I was leaving the uh Google ac capella group, Google was like sort of doing their warm-ups in

anticipation of doing some concert. So, you've got some like old school Google vibes here, but uh also a lot of excitement around all the AI stuff. So now I didn't see Google Pella perform. Where was this performance? I didn't see them perform either. I just saw them warming up. They were sort of doing their scales. They sounded great. You know what? I bet it was a classic a capella situation where they warmed up and someone came up to them and they said, "Please don't perform." All right, Kevin. Well, before we get into it, shall we

say our disclosures? Yes. I work for the New York Times, which is suing OpenAI and Microsoft uh over copyright violations related to training of AI systems. And my boyfriend works at Anthropic, a Google investment. Oh, that's right. Yeah. So, let's talk about some of what was announced this week. There was so so much. We can't get to all of it, but uh what were the highlights from your perspective? Well, so look, I wrote a column about this, Kevin. I felt a little bit like I was in a fever dream at this conference. You know, I

think often it is the case at a developer conference where they'll sort of try to break it out into one, two, three big bullet points. This one felt a little bit like a fire hose of stuff. And so by the end I'm looking at my notes saying, "Okay, so email's gonna start writing in my voice and I can turn my PDFs into video TED talks. Sure, why not?" Um, so I had a little bit of fever of dream mentality. What was your feeling? Yeah, I I told someone yesterday that I thought the name of the

event should have been everything everywhere all at once. Like that did actually feel like what they were saying is like every Google product that you use is going to have more AI. that AI is going to be better and is all going to make your life better in various ways. Uh, but it was a lot to keep track of. Yeah. I mean, look, if we were going to try to to to pull out one very obvious theme from everything that we saw, it was AI is coming to all of the things. And it's probably worth

drilling down a little bit into what some of those things are. Yeah. So, the thing that got my attention and then I was sitting right next to you. Uh the one time when I really noticed you perking up was when they started talking about this new AI mode in Google search, their core search product. So talk about AI mode and what they announced yesterday. So Kevin, this gets a little confusing because there are now three different kinds of major Google searches. I would say there is the normal Google search which is now augmented in many

cases by what they call AI overviews which is sort of AI answer at the top. Yeah, that's the little thing that will tell you like what the meaning of phrases like you can't lick a badger twice is. Right. That's right. And if you don't know the meaning of that, Google it. Um, so that's sort of the thing one. Thing two is the Gemini app, which is kind of like a one for one like chat GPT competitor. That's in its own, you know, standalone app, standalone website. And then the big thing that they announced this week

was AI mode, which has been in testing for a little while. And I think this sort of lands in between the first two things, right? It is a tab now within search. And this is rolling out to everybody in the United States and a few other countries. And you sort of tap over there and now you can have the sort of longer, you know, multi-step questions that you might have with a Gemini or a chat GPT, but you can do it right from the Google search interface. Yeah. And I've been playing with this feature for

a few weeks now. It was in their labs um section, so you could try it out if you were enrolled in that. Um and it's it's really nice. Like it's a very clean thing. There's no ads yet. uh they they will probably appear soon. It does this thing called the fan out which u is is very funny to me. Like you ask it a question and it kind of dispatches like a bunch of different Google searches to like crawl a bunch of different web pages and like bring you back the answer and it actually tells

you like how many searches it is doing and how many different websites it's doing. So I asked it for example like how much does a Costco membership cost? It search 72 websites for the answer to that question. So AI mode is very very eager to answer your question even if it does verge on overkill sometimes. Yeah. Well, so you know you and I had a chance to meet with Robbie Stein who is uh one of the people who is leading AI mode and I was surprised by how enthusiastic about you were like you said that

you've really actually found this quite useful in a way that I think I have not so far. So what are you noticing about this? I mean the main thing is it's just such a clean experience like on a regular Google search results page. You and I have talked about this like it has just gotten very cluttered. There's a lot of stuff there. There's ads, there's carousels of images, there's sometimes a shopping module, there's sometimes a maps module. Like, it's just it's hard to actually like find the blue links sometime. Uh, and I imagine that AI

mode will become more cluttered as they try to make more money off of it. But right now, if you go to it, it's like a much simpler experience. It's much easier to find what you're looking for. Yeah. And at the same time, they're also trying to do some really interestingly complex stuff. Like one of the things that they showed off during the keynote was somebody asked a question about baseball statistics that required finding, you know, three or four different kind of, you know, tricky to locate stats and then combining them al together in an interactive

chart. That was just a demo. We don't have access to that yet. But that is one of the those things where it's like, well, if that works, that could be a meaningful improvement to search. Yeah, it could be a meaningful improvement to search. And we should also say like it's a big unknown how all of this will affect uh the main Google search product, right? This is for now it's a tab. Um they have not sort of merged it into the main core Google search uh in part because it's not monetized uh yet. It costs

a lot more to serve those results than a traditional Google search. But I imagine over time these things will kind of merge which will have lots of implications for publishers, people who make things on the internet, the whole sort of economic model of the internet. But before we uh get dragged down that rabbit hole, um let's just talk about a few other things that they uh said on stage at Google IO. So I was really struck by the usage numbers that they trotted out for their products. Um Gemini, according to them, um the app now

has 400 million monthly users. Um that is a lot. That is not quite as many as chatbt, but it is a lot more than products like Claude and other uh AI chatbots. They said that their tokens that are being output by Gemini has increased 50 times since last year. Um, and is just like way like so people are using this stuff. In other words, this is not just like some feature that Google is shoving into these products that people are trying to sort of navigate around like people are really using Gemini. I I think that

that that's right. And I think it's the Gemini number in particular is the one that struck me. Like 400 million is a lot of people and I don't see that many obvious ways that Google could be like faking that stat. uh you know in contrast to for example they said one and a half billion people see AI overviews every month it's like well yeah you just put them in Google search results like that's an entirely passive phenomenon but like Gemini you got to go to the website you got to download the app so that tells

me that people actually are finding real utility there so that's Gemini but they also released a bunch of other stuff like new image and video models do you want to talk about those yeah so um you know like like the other companies they're working on text to image text to video and while open AAI's models have gotten most of the attention in this regard. Google's really are quite good. I think the the marquee feature uh for this year's IO is that the video generating model VO3 can also generate sound. So, it showed us a demo

for example of an owl flapping its wings. You hear the wings flap. It comes down to the ground. There's this sort of nervous badger character and they exchanged some dialogue which was basically incomprehensible, just pure sloth. But they were able to generate that from scratch. And I guess that's something. They left behind a a ball today. It bounced higher than I can jump. What manner of magic is that? Yeah. Um they also announced a new ultra subscription to Google's AI products. Now, if you want to be on the bleeding edge uh of Google's AI offerings,

you can pay $250 a month for Gemini Ultra. And Casey, I thought to myself, no one is going to do this. Who is going to pay $250 a month? That's a fortune for access to Google's leading AI products. And then I look over to my right and there's Casey Newton in the middle of the keynote pulling out his credit card from his wallet and entering it into buy a subscription to this extremely expensive AI product. So, you might have been the first customer of this product. Why? Well, and I hope that they don't forget that

uh when it comes time to feed me into the large language model. Um, look, I want to be able to have the the latest models. And you know, one I think clever thing that these AI companies are doing is they're saying, "We will give you the latest and greatest before everyone else, but you have to pay us a ridiculous amount of money." And you know, if you're a reporter and you're reporting about this stuff every day, I do think you sort of want to be in that camp. Now, is it true that I now spend

more on monthly AI subscriptions than I paid for my apartment in Phoenix in the year 2010? Yes. And I don't feel great about it, but I'm trying to be a good journalist. Kevin, please. Your family is dying. Um, another thing I that made me perk up was uh they talked a lot about personalization, right? This is something we've been talking about for years. Basically, Google has all of, you know, billions of people's email, their search histories, their calendars, all their personal information, and we've been sort of waiting for them to start weaving that stuff in

so that you can use Gemini to do things in those products. Um, that has been slow. Um, but they are sort of taking baby steps and they did show off a few things including this new personalized smart replies feature that is going to be uh available for uh subscribers later this year. in Gmail so that instead of just getting the kind of formulaic suggested replies at the bottom of of an email, it'll actually kind of learn from how you write and maybe it can access some things in your calendar or your documents and really like

suggest a better reply. You'll still have to like hit send, but it'll like sort of pre-populate a message for you. Yeah. You know, I have to say I'm I'm somewhat bearish on this one, Kevin, only because I I I think that if this were easy, like it would just sort of be here already, right? Like when you think about how formulaic so much email is, it doesn't seem to me like it should be that hard to figure out like what kind of email are you? Like I'm basically a two sentence emailer, you know, that doesn't

seem like that that's hard to to mimic. Um, so that's just like an area where I've been a little bit surprised and disappointed. We also know large language models do not have large memories. So one thing that I would love for Gmail to do, but it cannot, is just sort of understand all of my email and use that to inform the tone of my voice. But it can't do that. It can only take a much more limited subset. Is that going to make it sort of difficult to accurately mimic my tone? I don't know. So,

what I'm trying to say here is I think there's a lot of problems here and my expectations are like pretty low on this one. Yeah, that was the part where I was like I I will believe that this exists and is good when I can use this, but as with other companies like like Apple, uh, which demoed a bunch of AI features at its developer conference last year and then never launched half of them. Um, I have become like a little bit skeptical until I can like actually use the thing myself. Yeah, it really is

amazing how looking back, last year's WWDC was just like a movie about what a competent AI company might have done in an alternate future. It had very little bearing on our reality, but it was admittedly an interesting set of proposals. Okay, so that is the the software AI portion of IO. There was also a a demo of a new hardware product that Google is working on, which are these uh Android XR glasses. Basically, their version of what Meta has been showing off. It's Orion glasses where you have a pair of glasses. They have like sort

of chunky black frames. They've got like sort of a hologram lens in them and you can actually like see a little like thing overlaid on your vision uh telling you, you know, what the weather is or what time it is or that you have a new message or they have this integration with Google Maps that they showed off where you can like it'll like show you, you know, the little miniature Google map right there inside your glasses and it'll sort of turn as you turn and tell you where to go. Um, they did say this

is a prototype, but um, what did you make of this? Well, I think a lot of it looked really cool. Like probably my favorite part of the demo was uh, when the person who was demonstrating looked down at her feet cuz she was getting ready to to walk to a a coffee shop and the Google map was actually projected at her feet and so she know, okay, go to the left, go to the right. If you've ever been walking around a sort of foreign city and and desperately wanted this feature, I think you would see

that and be pretty excited. What did you think? Um, yeah. I I thought to myself, Google Glass is back. It was away for so long in the wilderness and now it's back. And it might actually work this time. Absolutely. I did get to try the the glasses. There was a very long line for the demo, but um I Let me guess. You said, "I'm Kevin Roose. Let me in the front of the line." No, they made me wait for 2 hours. I mean, I didn't literally wait for two hours. I went and did some stuff

and then came back. But I got my demo. It was like 5 minutes long. Um, and it was uh, you know, it was it was pretty basic, but it is cool. Like you can look now look around and you can say, "Hey, what's this plant?" And it'll sort of Gemini will kind of like look at what you're seeing and tell you what the plant is. Totally. I I did a demo um a few months back and also like really enjoyed it. Um so I think there's something here. And I think more importantly, Kevin, consumers now

when they look at Google and Meta, they finally have a choice. Whose advertising monopoly do I want to feed with my personal data? And you have consumer choice now. And I think that's beautiful. And that's what capitalism is all about. So, okay, those are some of the announcements, but what did you make of the sort of overall tenor of the event? What stuck out to you as far as the vibe? So, the thing that stuck out to me the most was just contrasting it with last year's event. Because last year they had this phrase that

they kept repeating, let Google do the Googling for you, which to me put me in the mind of somebody sort of leaning back into your like floating chair from the Wall-E movie and just sort of letting the AI like run rough shot over your life. This year, Google talked about AI very differently. This time, they want you to sit up. They want you to lean in. They want you to pay them $250, and they want you to get to work. You know, AI is your your superpower. It's your bionic arm, and you're going to use

it to get sort of further and farther than ever before. But even while presenting that vision, Kevin, they were also very much like, but it's it's going to be normal. It's going to be chill. It's going to be kind of like your life is now. You're still going to be in the backyard with your kids doing science experiments. you're still going to be planning a girl's weekend in Nashville, right? There was not really a lot of science fiction here. There was just a little bit of like, oh, we uh we put a little bit of

AI in this. So, that was interesting to me. Yeah. So, I had a slightly different take, which is that I think Google is being AGI pilled. Um, you know, for years now, Google has sort of distanced itself from the conversation about AGI. You know, it had Deep Mind, which was sort of its its AGI division, but they were over in London and they were sort of a separate thing. Um, and people at Google would sort of not laugh exactly, but kind of chuckle when you asked them about AGI. It just didn't seem real to them

or it was so remote that it wasn't worth considering. They would say, "What does this have to do with search advertising?" Exactly. So now, you know, it's still the case that this is a company that wants you to think about it as a product company, a search company. They're not like going all in on AGI, but once you start looking for it, you do see that the the the sort of culture of uh AI and how they people at Google talk about AI has really been shifting. It is it is starting to seep into conversation

here in a way that I think is uh unusual and maybe indicative that the technology is just getting better um faster than even a lot of people at Google were thinking it would. So, I don't totally agree with you, Kevin, because while I'm sure that they're having more conversations about AGI here than they were a year ago, when you look at what they're building, it doesn't seem like there's been a lot of rip it up and start again. It seems a lot like how do we plug AI systems into Google shaped holes? And maybe that

will eventually ladder up to something like AGI, but I don't think we've seen it quite yet. The other observation I would make is that I think the Google of 2025 has a lot more swagger and confidence when it comes to AI than the Google of 2024 or 2023. I mean two years ago um Google was still trying to make Bard a thing and I think they were feeling very insecure that that OpenAI had beaten them to a a consumer chatbot that had uh found some mass adoption. Um, and so they were just playing catch-up. And

I don't think anyone would have said that Google was in the lead when it came to generative AI just a few years ago. But now they they feel like there is a race and that they are in a good position to win it. They were talking about how Gemini stacks up well against all these other models. It's at the top of this leaderboard LM Marina for all these different categories. I don't love the way that AI is sometimes covered as if it were like sports. you know, who's up, who's down, who's winning, who's losing. But

I do feel like Google has the confidence now when it comes to AI of a team that like knows it's going to be in the playoffs at least. And that was evident. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, when you look at the competition, just what's happened over the past year, you have Apple doing a bunch of essentially fictional demos at WWDC, and you have Meta cheating to win at LM Arena, making 27 different versions of a model just to come up with one that would be good at one thing, right? So I think if you're Google

you're looking at that and you're thinking I could be those guys. So that is um that is what it felt like inside Google IO. Um what was the reaction from outside? I noticed that for example the company's stock actually fell like not not by a lot but like you know to a degree that suggested that Wall Street was kind of meh on a lot of what was announced but what was the reaction like outside of Google? I think the external reaction that I saw was just struggling a little bit to connect the dots, right? Like

that is the issue with announcing so many things during a 2-hour period is sometimes people don't have that one thing that they're taking away saying, I can't wait to try that. And when you're just looking at a bunch of Google products that you're already using, I think if you're an investor, it's probably hard to understand, well, I don't understand why this is unlocking so much more value at Google. Now, maybe millions of people are going to spend $250 a month on Gemini Ultra, but unless that happens, I can understand why some people feel like, hm,

this feels a little like the status quo. Yeah, I see that. I also think there are like many unanswered questions about how all of this will be monetized. And, you know, it's Google has built one of the most profitable products in the history of capitalism in the Google search engine and the advertising business that supports it. Um, it is not clear to me that whatever AI mode becomes or whatever AI features it can jam into search, if search as a category is just declining across the board, if people are not going to google.com to look

things up in the way they were a few years ago, um, I think it's an open question like what the next thing is and whether Google can can seize on it as effectively as they didn't with search. Well, well, I think that they gave us one vision of what that might be, and that is shopping. A significant portion of the keynote was devoted to one executive talking about a new shopping experience inside of Google where you can take a picture of yourself, upload it, and then sort of virtually try things on and it will sort

of use AI to understand your proportions and, you know, accurately map a a garment on to you. And there was a lot of stuff in there that would just sort of let Google take a cut, right? Obviously, you can advertise the individual thing to buy. Maybe you're taking some sort of like cut of of the payment. There's an there's an affiliate fee that that is in there somewhere. So, one of the things I'm trying to do is I cover Google going forward is understanding that yes, search is the core, but there but Gemini could be

a springboard to build a lot of other really valuable businesses. An important question I know that I always ask you when I go to these things. How was the food? Let's see. I think the food was really nice. So, here's the thing. Last year it was a purely savory experience at breakfast and I am shamefully an American who likes a little sweet treat when I woke up. This year they had both bagels and an apple cinnamon coffee cake and so when I was heading into that keynote I was in a pretty good mood. I had

some of the they have like little bottles of cold brew and I I'm like a huge caffeine addict so I I took two of them. Um and boy I was on rocket fuel all day. I was just humming around. I was like bouncing off the wall. I was like doing parkour. I was like I was feeling great. I thought I saw you warming up with the capella team. Now it all makes sense. When we come back, we'll talk with Deisabis, CEO of Google Deep Mind, about his vision of the AI future. [Music] Deis, welcome back

to Hardfork. Thanks for having me again. A lot has happened since the last time you were on the show. Um, most notably, you won a Nobel Prize. Congrats on that. Um, ours must be still in the mail. Can you put in a good word for next year with the committee? I will do. I will do. I imagine it's very exciting to win a Nobel Prize. I know that have been a goal for a long time of yours. Um, I imagine it also leads to like a lot of people giving you crap like during everyday activities

like if you're, you know, struggling to work the printer and people are just like, "H, oh, Mr. Nobel Laur does that happen?" Um, a little bit. I mean, look, I tried to say, "Look, I can't, you know, that maybe it's a good excuse to like not have to fix uh those kinds of things, right?" So, it's more shield. Um, so you just had Google IO and it was really the Gemini show. I mean, I think Gemini's name was mentioned something like 95 times in the keynote. Of all the stuff that was announced, what do you

think will be the biggest deal for the average user? Wow. Well, I mean, we did announce a lot of things. I think for for the average user, I think it's the new powerful models and I hope uh uh this Astrotype technology coming into Gemini live. I think it's really magical actually when people use it for the first time and they realize that actually AI is capable already today of doing much more than what they thought. Uh and then I guess V3 was the big uh uh the biggest announcement of the show probably and seems to

be going viral now and that's pretty exciting as well I think. Yeah. One thing that struck me about IO this year compared to previous years um is that it seems like Google is sort of getting AGI pill as they say. Um I remember interviewing people, researchers at Google even a couple years ago and um there was a little taboo about talking about AGI. They would sort of be like, "Oh, that's like Demis and his deep mind people in London. That's sort of like their crazy thing uh that they're excited about, but here we're doing like,

you know, real research." Um but now you've got like senior Google executives uh talking openly about it. What explains that shift? I think the sort of AI part of the of the equation becoming more and more central like I sometimes describe uh Google deep mind now as the engine room of Google and I think you saw that probably in the keynote yesterday really if you take a step back um and then it's very clear uh I think you could sort of say AGI is maybe the right word that we're quite close to this uh human

level general intelligence u maybe closer than people thought even a couple of years ago and it's going to have broad crosscutting impact and I think it's another thing that you saw at the keynote, it's sort of literally popping up everywhere because it's this horizontal layer that's going to underpin everything and I think everyone is starting to understand that and um maybe a bit of the deep mind ethos is bleeding into the into the general Google which is which is great. You mentioned um that project Astra is powering some things that maybe people don't even realize

that AI can yet do. I think this speaks to a real challenge in the AI business right now, which is that the models have these pretty amazing capabilities, but either the products aren't selling them or the users just sort of haven't figured them out yet. So, how are you thinking about that challenge and how much do you bring yourself to the product question as opposed to the research question? Yeah, it's great great question. I mean I think um one of the challenges I think of this space is obviously the underlying tech is moving unbelievably fast

and I think that's quite different even from the other big revolutionary techs internet and mobile at some point you get some sort of stabilization of the tech stack so that then the you know the focus can be on product right or or exploiting that tech stack and what we've got here which I think is very unusual but also quite exciting from a researcher perspective is that the the tech stack itself is evolving incredibly fast as you guys know. So I think that makes it uniquely challenging actually on the product side. um not just for us

at Google and Deep Mind, but for startups, for for anyone really, any any any uh company, small and large, is where do you what do you bet on right now when that could be 100% better uh in a year as we've seen and and so you've got you've got this interesting thing where you need kind of fairly um deeply technical sort of product people, product designers and managers I think to in order to sort of intercept where the technology may be in a year. So there's things it can't do today and you want to design

a product that's going to come out in a year. So you've got a kind of you got a pretty deep understanding of the tech and where it might go to to sort of work out what features you can rely on. And so it's it's it's an interesting one. I think that's what you're seeing so many different things being tried out and then if something works we got to really double down quickly on that. Yeah. During your keynote, you talked both about Gemini as powering both uh sort of productivity assistant style stuff and also fundamental uh

science and and research challenges and I wonder in your mind is that the same problem that sort of like one great model can solve or are those sort of very different problems that just require different approaches? I think you know when you look at it it looks like an incredible breadth of things which is true and how are these things related uh other than the fact I'm interested in all of them but is that uh that was always the idea with building general intelligence you know truly generally and and and and this in this way

that we're doing it should be applicable to almost anything right that being productivity which is very exciting help billions of people in their everyday lives to cracking some of the biggest problems in science um 90% I would say of it is is the underlying core general models uh you know in our case Gemini especially 2.5 and the in most of these areas you still need additional applied research or some a little bit of um special casing from the domain maybe it's special data or whatever um to tackle that problem and you know maybe we work

with domain experts in in the scientific uh areas uh but underlying it you all the when you crack one of those areas you can also put those learnings back into the general model and then the general model gets better and better. So, it's a kind of very interesting flywheel and um it's great fun for someone like me who's very interested in many things. You get to use this technology and sort of um uh uh uh go into almost any field that you find interesting. A thing that a lot of AI companies are wrestling with right

now is how many resources to devote to sort of the core AI push on the foundation models, making the the models better at the basic level versus how much time and energy and money do you spend trying to spin out parts of that and commercialize it and turn it into products. And I I imagine this is both like a resources challenge but also like a a personnel challenge because say you join Deep Mind as an engineer and you want to like build AGI and then someone from Google comes to you and says like we actually

want your help like building the shopping thing that's going to like let people try on clothes. Is that a challenging conversation to have with people who joined for one reason and maybe asked to work on something else? Yeah. Well, we we don't you know it's sort of self- selecting internally. We don't have to that's one advantage of being quite large. there were enough engineers on the product teams and the product areas, you know, that can deal with the the product development product and the researchers if they want to stay in core research that they're absolutely

that's fine and and we need that. Um but actually you'll find a lot of researchers are quite um motivated by real world impact be that in medicine obviously and and things like isomorphic but also um uh to to have billions of people use their research. it's actually really motivating and so there's plenty of people that like to do both. So, um yeah, we don't there's no need for us to sort of have to pivot people to certain things. Um you did a panel yesterday with uh Sergey Brin, Google's co-founder. Yeah. Um who has been working

on this stuff back in the office and uh interestingly he has shorter AGI timelines than you. um he thought AGI would arrive before 2030 and you said just after. He actually accused you of sandbagging, basically like artificially pushing out your estimates so that you could like underpromise and overd deliver. Um but I'm curious about that because you will often hear people at different AI companies arguing about when the timelines are, but presumably you and Sergey have access to all the same information and the same road maps and you you understand what's possible um and what's

not. So what is he seeing that you're not or vice versa that leads you to different conclusions about when AGI is going to arrive? Uh look, well, first of all, there wasn't that much difference in our timelines if he's just before 2030 and I'm just after. Also, our my timeline's been pretty consistent since the start of Deep Mind in 2010. So we thought it was roughly a 20-year mission and amazingly we're on track. So it's it's somewhere around then, I would think. And I and I I feel like between I actually have obviously a probability

distribution of you know where the ma most mass of that is between five and 10 years from now. And I think partly it's to do with predicting anything precisely 5 to 10 years out is very difficult. So there's uncertainty bars around that. And then also um there's uncertainty about how many more breakthroughs are required right and also about the definition of AGI. I have quite a high bar which I've always had which is it's it it should be able to do all of the things that the human brain can do right even theoretically and so

that's that's a higher bar than say what the typical individual human could do which is obviously very economically important and that would be a big milestone but not in my view enough to call it AGI. Um and and we talked on stage a little bit about what is missing from today's systems. Sort of true out of the box invention and thinking um sort of inventing a conjecture rather than just solving a math conjecture. Solving one's pretty good but actually inventing like the reman hypothesis or something as significant as that that mathematicians agree is really important

is very is much harder. Um and also consistency. So the consistency is a requirement of generality really and you should it should be very very difficult for even top experts to find uh flaws especially trivial flaws in the systems which we can easily find today and you know the average person can do that. So there's a sort of capabilities gap and there's a consistency gap before we get to what I would consider AGI. And when you think about closing that gap, do you think it arrives via incremental two 5% improvements in each successive model just

kind of stacked up over a long period of time? Or do you think it's more likely that we'll hit some sort of technological breakthrough and then all of a sudden there's liftoff and we hit some sort of intelligence explosion? I I think it's I think it could be both. and and and I and I think for sure both is going to be useful which is why we push unbelievably hard on the scaling and the you know what you would call incremental although actually there's a lot of innovation even in that to keep moving that forward

pre-training post-training inference time compute all of that stack so there's actually lots of exciting research and we showed some of that that diffusion model um the deep think model um so we're innovating at all parts of that the traditional stack should we call it and then on top of that we're doing uh more green field things, more blue sky things like Alpha Evolve maybe you could you could include in that which um is there a difference between a green field thing and a blue sky thing? I'm not sure. Maybe they're maybe they're pretty similar. So

uh some new area, let's call it. And uh and uh and then that could come back into the main branch, right? And we've I've I mean as you both know, I've been fundamental believer in sort of foundational research. We've always had the broadest, deepest research bench, I think, of any lab out there. Um, and that's what allowed us to do past big breakthroughs, obviously transformers, but Alpha Go, Alpha Zero, all of these things, distillation. Um, and if to the extent any of those things are needed again, another big breakthrough of that level, um, I would

back us to do that. And uh we're you know pursuing lots of very exciting avenues that could bring that sort of step change uh as well as the incremental and then they of course also interact um because the better you have your your your base models the more you things you can try on top of it um again like alpha evolve you know add in evolutionary programming in that case on top of the the the LLMs. Um we recently talked to Karen how who's a journalist um just wrote a book about AI um and she

was making an argument essentially against scale um that you don't need these big general models that are incredibly energyintensive and compute intensive and require billions of dollars and new data centers and and all kinds of uh of resources to make happen that instead of doing that kind of thing you could build smaller models. You could build narrower models. You could have a model like Alphafold that is just designed to uh predict the 3D structures of proteins. You don't need a huge behemoth of a model to accomplish that. What's your response to that? Well, I think

you need those big models. We we we're, you know, we love big and small models. So, you need the big models often to train the smaller models. So, uh we're very proud of our kind of flash models, which are the most, you know, we call them our workhorse models. Really efficient, some of the most popular models. We use a ton of those types of size models internally. But you can't build those kind of models without distilling um from the larger teacher models and um and even things like alpha which obviously I I I'm huge advocate

of more of those types of models that can tackle right now. We don't have to wait to AGI. we can tackle now really important problems in science and medicine uh today and uh that will require taking the general techniques but then potentially specializing it you know in that case around protein structure prediction and I think there's huge potential for doing more of those things um and we are largely in our science work AI for science work um and I think you know we're producing something pretty cool on that pretty much every month these days and

um I think there should be a lot more exploration on that probably a lot of startups could be built uh combining some kind of general model that exists today with some domain specivity and um but if you're interested in AGI you've got to push the the again both sides of that it's it's not an either or in my mind I'm I'm an and right like let's scale let's let's look at specialized techniques combining that and hybrid systems sometimes they're called and let's look at um new uh uh blue sky research that could deliver the next

transformers Um, you know, we're betting on all of those things. You mentioned Alpha Evolve, something that Kevin and I were both really fascinated by. Tell us what Alpha Evolve is. Well, a high level, it's basically taking our um latest Gemini models, actually two different ones, uh uh to generate sort of ideas, hypotheses about programs and other uh mathematical functions. And then it goes they go into sort of evolutionary programming process to decide which ones of those are most promising and then that gets sort of ported into the next step. And tell us a little bit

about what evolutionary programming. It sounds very exciting. Yeah. So it's it's basically a way for uh systems to kind of uh uh explore new space right. So like what things should we you know in genetics like mutate to uh to give you a kind of new organism. So you can think about the same way in programming or in mathematics. You know, you change the program in some way and then uh you compare it to some answer you're trying to get and then the ones that fit best according to sort of evaluation function you put back

into the next set of generating new ideas. uh we have our most efficient model sort of flash model generating uh possibilities and then we have the pro model uh critiquing that right and deciding which one of those is most promising for the to be selected for the next uh next round of evolution. So it's sort of like an autonomous AI research organization almost where you have some AI coming up with hypotheses, other AI testing them and supervising them and the goal as I understand it um is to have an AI that can kind of improve

itself or over time or suggest improvements to existing problems. Yes. So it's the beginning of I think that's why people so excited about and we're excited about is the beginning of a kind of automated process. It's still not fully automated and also it's still relatively narrow. We've applied it to many things like chip design, uh scheduling, uh AI tasks on our on our data centers more efficiently, um even improving matrix multiplication, one of the most fundamental units of training uh uh training algorithms. Uh so it's it's actually amazingly useful already, but um it's still constrained

to domains that are kind of provably correct, right, which obviously maths and coding are, but we we need to sort of fully generalize that. But it's interesting because I think for a lot of people the knock they have on LLMs in general is well all you can really give me is the statistical median of your training data. But what you're saying is we now have a way of going beyond that to potentially generate novel ideas that are actually useful in advancing the state-of-the-art. That's right. And and but we we already had these type this is

another approach alpha evolve using evolutionary methods but but we already had evidence of that even way back in Alph Go days. So, you know, it's Alph Go came up with new Go strategies. Most famously, move 37 in game two of our big Lisa doll world championship match. And okay, it was limited to a game, but it was a genuinely new strategy that had never been seen before, even though we've played Go for hundreds of years. So, that's when I kicked off our sort of alpha fold projects and science projects because I was waiting for to

see evidence of that kind of spark of um creativity, you could call it, right? or originality at least in within the domain of what we know. But there's still a lot further that has to you know so we we we know that these kinds of models paired with things like Monte Carlo research or reinforcement learning planning techniques uh uh can get you to new regions of space to explore and evolutionary methods is another way of going beyond what the current model knows to explore force it into a new regime where it's not seen it before.

I've been looking for a good Monte Carlo tree for so long now. If you could help me find one, it would honestly be a huge help. One of these things could help. Um, so I read the Alpha Evolve paper, or to be more precise, I fed it into Notebook LM and had it make a podcast that I could then listen to that would explain it to me at a slightly more elementary level. Um, and one fascinating thing that stuck out to me, um, is a detail about how you were able to make Alpha Evolve more

creative. And one of the ways that you did it was by essentially forcing the model to hallucinate. M I mean so many people right now are obsessed with eliminating hallucinations but it seemed to me like one way to read that paper is that there's there's actually a scenario in which you want models to hallucinate or be creative whatever you want to call it. Yes. Well I think that's right. I think you you know hallucination in when you want factual things obviously is you don't want um but in creative situations where you know you can think

of it as a little bit like lateral thinking in an MBA course or something right uh is just just create some crazy ideas most of them don't make sense um but the odd one or two may get you to a a region of the search space that is actually quite valuable it turns out once you evaluate it afterwards uh and so um you can substitute the word hallucination maybe for imagination at that point, right? They're obviously two sides of the of the same coin. Yeah. I did talk to one AI safety person who was uh

a little bit worried about Alpha Evolve, not not because of the actual technology and the experiments, which this person said, you know, they're fascinating, but because of the way it was rolled out. So, uh, Deep Google Deep Mind created Alpha Evolve and then used it to optimize some systems inside Google and kept it sort of hidden for a number of months. um and only then sort of released it to the public. And this person was saying, well, if we really are getting to the point where these AI systems are starting to become recursively self-improving and

they can sort of build a better AI, doesn't that imply that when Google, if Google DeepMind does build AGI or even super intelligence that it's going to keep it to itself for a while rather than doing the responsible thing and informing the public? Well, I think it's a bit of both actually. You need to for first of all, Alphveolve is a very naent self-improvement thing, right? And it's still got human in the loop and it's um and it's only shaving off, you know, albeit important percentage points off of already existing tasks. You know, that's valuable,

but it's not some it's not creating any kind of step changes. Uh and there's a there's a trade-off between, you know, carefully evaluating things internally before you release it to the public out into the world. Um and then also getting the extra critique back which is also very useful from the academic community and so on. And also we we have a lot of trusted tester type of programs that we talk about where people get early access to these things um and um and then give us feedback and and stress test them uh including sometimes the

the safety institutes as well. But my understanding was you weren't just like red teaming this internally within Google. we were actually like using it to make the data centers more efficient, using it to make the kernels that train the AI models more efficient. So I guess what this person is saying is like it's just we we want to start getting good habits around these things now before they become something like AGI and uh they were just a little worried that maybe this is going to be something that stays hidden for longer than it needs to.

So I don't like you I would love to hear your response to that. Yeah. Well, look, I I mean I think that that system is not uh uh anything really that I would say, you know, has any risk on the AGI type of front. I think as we get and I think today's systems still are not although very impressive are not that powerful um from a you know any kind of AGI risk standpoint that maybe this person was talking about. Um and I think you need to have both. You need to have incredibly rigorous internal

tests of these things and then you need to also get collaborative inputs from external. So I think it's a bit of both. I actually don't know the details of uh of of the alpha uh uh process for the last few you know the first few months. It was just function search before and then it become more general. So it's it's sort of evolved it's evolved itself over the last year in terms of becoming this general purpose tool. um and it still has a lot of um way to go before we can actually use it in

our main branch which is at that point I think then becomes more serious like with Gemini it's sort of separate from from that currently. Let's talk about AI safety a little bit more broadly. It's been my observation that it seemed like if the further back in time you go and the less powerful AI systems you have the more everyone seem to talk about the safety risk and it seems like now as the models improve we we hear about it less and less including you know at the keynote yesterday. So, I'm curious what you make of

this moment in AI safety. Uh, if you feel like you're paying enough attention to the risk that could be created by the systems that you have and if you are as committed to it as you were say 3 or four years ago, a lot of these outcomes seem less likely. Yeah. Well, we're we're just as committed as we've ever been. I mean, we we've we've from the beginning of Deep Mind, we plan for success. So, success meant something looking like this. This is what we kind of imagined. And I mean, it's sort of unbelievable still

that it's actually happened, but it's it is sort of in the in the Overton window of what we thought was going to happen if if these technologies really did develop the way we thought they were going to. Um, and the risk and attending to mitigating those risks was was part of that. And so we do a huge amount of work on our systems. Uh, I think we have very robust red teaming uh uh uh uh processes pro both pre and post launches. Um, and we've learned a lot. Uh and I think that's what's the difference

now between having these systems have albeit early systems contact with the real world. I think that's actually been I'm sort of persuaded now that that has been a useful thing overall. And I wasn't sure um I you know I think 5 years ago 10 years ago I may have thought maybe it's better staying in a research lab and and you know kind of collaborating with academia and that but actually there's a lot of things you don't get to see or understand unless millions of people try it. So, it's it's this weird trade-off again between um

you you can only do it when there's there's millions of smart people uh uh try your uh technology and then you find all these edge cases. So, you know, however big your your testing team is, it's only going to be, you know, 100 people or thousand people or something. So, it's not comparable to tens of millions of people using your your your systems. But on the other hand, you want to know as much as possible uh ahead of time so you can mitigate the risks before they happen. So, and this is so this is interesting

and it's good learning. I think what's happened in the industry in the last two three years has been great because we've been learning when the systems are not that powerful or risky as you were saying earlier, right? I think things are going to get very serious in 2 three years time when these agent systems start becoming really capable. We're only seeing the beginnings of the agent era, let's call it, but you can imagine and I hopefully you understood from the keynote what the ingredients are, what it's going to come together with. And then I think

we really need a step change in research on analysis and understanding controllability. But the other key thing is it's got to be international. You know, that's pretty difficult and I've been very consistent on that because it's an inter it's it's a technology going to fit everyone in the world. It's been built by different countries and different companies in different countries. So you got to get some international kind of norm I think around uh uh what we want to use these systems for and and what are the kinds of benchmarks that we want to test safety

and reliability on. Um but there's plenty of work to get on with now like we don't have those benchmarks. We should we and the industry and academia should be agreeing to consensus of what those are. What role do you want to see export controls play in doing what you just said? Well, export controls is a very complicated issue and and obviously geopolitics today is extremely complicated. Um, and there, you know, I can I see both sides of the arguments on that. You know, there's proliferation, uncontrolled proliferation of these technologies. Uh, do you want different places

to have frontier modeling uh training capability? Uh, I'm not sure that's a good idea. But on the other hand, um, you want western technology to be to be uh the thing that's adopted uh around the world. So, it's a complicated trade-off. Like, if there was an easy answer, I think we'd all, you know, I would be, you know, shouting it from the rooftops. But I think there's it's it's nuance like most real world problems are. Do you think we're heading into a bipolar conflict with China over AI if we aren't in one already? I just

recently saw the Trump administration making a big push to uh make the Middle East uh countries in the Gulf like Saudi Arabia and the UAE into AI powerhouses. have them, you know, use American chips to to train models that will not be sort of accessible to to China and its AI powers. Do you see that becoming sort of the foundations of a new global conflict? Well, I hope not, but I I think uh short term, you know, I feel like AI is getting caught up in the in the bigger g geopolitical shifts that are going

on. So, I think it's just part of that and it happens to be one of the most uh topical new things that's appearing. But on the other hand, what I'm hoping is as people as these technologies get more and more powerful, the world will realize we're all in this together because we are. And so, uh, you know, and the the the the last few steps towards AGI, um, hopefully we're on the longer timelines actually, right? Um, the more the timelines I'm thinking about, then we get time to sort of get the the the the collaboration

we need, at least on a scientific level, um, before before then would be good. Do you feel like you're in sort of the the final home stretch to AGI? I mean, Sergey Brin, uh, Google's co-founder, had a a memo that was reported on by my my colleague at the New York Times earlier this year that went out to Google employees and said, you know, we're in the sort of the home stretch and everyone needs to get back to the office and be working all the time uh because this this is when it really matters. Do

you have that sense of like of of finality or or sort of entering a new phase or an end game? I think we are past the middle game, that's for sure. But I've been working every hour there is for the last 20 years because I felt the how important and momentous this this technology would be and we've thought it was possible for 20 years and I think it's coming into view now. I agree with that and um whether it's 5 years or 10 years or 2 years that they're all actually quite short timelines when you're

talking discussing what the the enormity of the transformation of this techn you know this technology is going to bring uh that none of those timelines are very long. When we come back, more from Dennis Assabus about the strange futures that lie ahead. [Music] We're going to switch to some more general questions about the AI future. Sure. A lot of people now are starting to, at least in conversations that I'm involved in, think about what the world might look like after AGI. Um, the context in which I actually hear the most about this is from parents

who want to know um what their kids should be doing, studying, will they go to college? Um, you have kids that are older than than my kid. Um, how are you thinking about that? So I think that the when it comes to kids and I get asked this quite a lot is is u university students um I think first of all I wouldn't dramatically uh change some of the basic advice on STEM uh getting good at even for things like coding I would still recommend because I think whatever happens with these AI tools you'll be

better off understanding how they work and how they function and you know what you can do with them. Um, I would also say immerse yourself now. That's what I would be doing as a teenager today in in trying to become a sort of ninja at using the the the latest tools. I think you can almost be sort of superhuman in some ways if you got really good at using uh all the latest uh coolest AI tools. Um, but don't neglect the basics too because you need the fundamentals. and then I think uh teach sort of

meta skills really of um like learning to learn and the only thing we know for sure is there's going to be a lot of change over the next 10 years right so how does one get ready for that what kind of skills are useful for that creativity skills um adaptability resilience I think all of these sort of you know meta skills is what will be important uh for the next generation um and I think it'll be very interesting to see what they do because they're going to grow up AI native just like the last generation

grew up mobile and and iPad and you know sort of that that kind of you know tablet native and then previously internet and computers which was my era and um you know they always I think the kids of that era always seem to adapt to uh make use of the latest coolest tools and I think there's more we can do on the AI side to make the tools actually um if people are going to use them for school and education let's make them really good for that and sort of provably good and I'm very excited

about bringing it to education in a big way and also to you know if you had an AI tutor uh to bring it to poor parts of the world that don't have good educational systems. Um so I think there's a lot of upside there too. Another thing that kids are doing with AI is chatting a lot with digital companions. Um Google DeepMind doesn't make any of these companions yet. Um some of what I've seen so far seems pretty worrying. It seems pretty easy to create a chatbot that just does nothing but tell you how wonderful

you are and that can sort of like lead into some dark and weird places. So, I'm curious what observations you've had as you like look at this uh market for AI companions and whether you think I I might want to build this someday or I'm going to leave that to other people. Yeah, I think we got to be very careful as we as we start entering that domain and and that's why we we haven't yet and we're being very thoughtful about that. My my view on this is um more through the lens of uh the

universal assistant that we talked about yesterday, which is something that's incredibly useful for your everyday productivity. You know, gets rid of the boring, mundane tasks that we all hate doing to give you more time to do the things that you love doing. I also really um hope that they're going to enrich your lives by giving you incredible recommendations, for example, on all sorts of amazing things that um you didn't realize you would enjoy. you know, sort of the delight you with surprising things. Um, so I think these are the the ways I'm hoping that uh

these systems will go and actually on the positive side, I feel like um we if this assistant becomes really useful and knows you well, you could sort of program it with you obviously with natural language to protect your attention. So you could almost think of it as a system that works for you, you know, as an individual. it's yours and um it protects your attention from being assaulted by other algorithms that want your attention which is actually nothing to do with AI. Most most social media sites that's what they're doing effectively. Their algorithms are trying

to gain your attention and I think that's actually the worst thing and it be great to to protect that so we can be more in you know creative flow or whatever it is that you want you want to do. That's how I would want these systems to be useful to people. If if you could build a system like that, I think people would be so incredibly happy. I think right now people feel assailed by the algorithms in their life and they don't know what to do about it. Well, the reason is is because you have

to use your you've got one brain and you have to let's say whatever it is a social media stream, you have to dip into that torrent to then get the piece of information you want. But then you've already but you're doing it with the same brain. So you've already affected your mind and your mood and other things by dipping into that torrent and you know to find the valuable you know the piece of information that you wanted. But if if an assistant dig digital assistant did that for you, you would you know you'd only get

the useful nugget and you wouldn't need to um break your you know your your mood or what it is that you're doing the day or your concentration with your family, whatever it is. Um I think that would be wonderful. Yeah, Casey loves that idea. You love that idea. I love this idea of an AI agent that protects your attention from all the forces trying to assault it. I'm not sure how the the ads team at Google is going to feel about this. Um, but we can ask them when the show comes. Um, some people are

starting to look at the job market, especially for recent college graduates, and uh worry that there we're already starting to see signs of AI power job loss. Um, anecdotally, I talked to young people who, uh, you know, a couple years ago might have been interested in going into fields like tech or consulting or finance or law who are just saying like, I don't know that these jobs are going to be around much longer. Um, a recent article in the Atlantic wondered if we're starting to see AI competing with college graduates for these entry- level positions.

Do you have a view on that? I haven't looked at that. You know, I don't know. I haven't seen the studies on that, but um, you know, maybe it's starting to appear now. I I don't think there's any hard numbers on that yet. At least I haven't seen it. Um I think for now I mostly see these as tools that augmenting what you can do and what you can achieve. Um I think like with most I think the next era I mean maybe after AGI things will be different again but over the next five to

10 years I think we're going to find uh what normally happens with with big sort of new technology shifts which is that some jobs get disrupted but then new um you know more valuable usually more interesting jobs get created. So I do think that's what's going to happen in the in the nearer term. Um so you know today's graduates and the next you know next five years let's say I think it's very difficult to predict after that um that's part of this sort of more societal change that we need to get ready for. I mean

I think the the tension there is that you're right these tools do give people so much more leverage. Um but they also like reduce the need for big teams of people doing certain things. I was talking to someone recently who said, you know, they had been at a data science uh company in their previous job that had 75 people working on some kind of data science tasks and now they're at a startup that has one person doing the work that used to require 75 people. And so I guess the question I'd be curious to get

your view on is what are the other 74 people supposed to do? Well, look, I think um uh these tools are going to unlock uh uh the ability to create things much more quickly. So, you know, I think there'll be more people that will do startup things. I mean, there's a lot more surface area one could attack and try with these tools um that was possible before. So, let's take programming for example. um you know so obviously these these systems are getting better at coding but the best coders I think are getting differential value out

of it because they still understand how to pose the question and architect the whole codebase and and check what the coding does but simultaneously at the hobbyist end it's allowing designers and maybe nontechnical people to vibe code some things you know whether that's prototyping games or or websites or uh movie ideas so in in theory it should be those 70 people or whatever should could be creating new startup ideas. Maybe it's going to be less of these bigger teams and more smaller teams or very empower empowered by AI tools. Um but it but that goes

back to the education thing then which skills are now important. It might be different skills like creativity sort of vision and uh design sensibility um you know could become increasingly important. Do you think you'll hire as many engineers next year as you hire this year? I think so. Yeah, that's that's the I mean there's no plan to to hire less, but you know, we again you have we have to see how fast the the coding uh agents improve um today. They they're not, you know, they can't do things on their own. They need to they

need uh they're just helpful for for the best, you know, for the best human coders. Last time we talked to you, we asked you about some of the more pessimistic views about AI in the public. And one of the things you said to us was that the field needed to demonstrate concrete use cases that were just clearly beneficial to people to kind of shift this. My observation is that I think there are even more people now who are like actively antagonistic toward AI. And I think maybe one reason is they hear folks at the big

labs saying pretty loudly eventually this is going to replace your job. And most people just think well I don't want that you know. So I'm curious like looking on from that past conversation if you feel like we have seen some use cases enough use cases to start to shift public opinion or if not what some of those things might be that actually change views here. Well I think we're we're we're working on those things. They take time to develop. Um I think the a kind of universal assistant would be one of those things if it

was uh kind of really yours and working for you effectively. So technology that works for you. Um, I think that this is what economists and other experts should be working on is do you have uh does everyone have manage a a suite of of you know fleet of agents that are doing things for you and you know including potentially earning you money or building you things? Um, you know, does that become part of the normal job process? I could imagine that in the next four or five years. I also think that as we get closer

to AGI and we make breakthroughs in we probably talked about last time material sciences, energy fusion, these sorts of things helped by AI um uh we should have we should start getting to a position in society where we're getting towards what I would call radical abundance where there's a lot of resources u to go around and then again it's more of a political question of how would you distribute that in a fair way right so I've heard this term like universal high income something like that uh I think is going to probably be you know

good and necessary but obviously there's a lot of uh complications there that need to be thought through. Um so and and then in between there's this transition period you know between now and whenever we we have that sort of situation where what what do we do about the change in in the in the interim and depends on how long that is too. What part of the economy do you think AGI will transform last? Well, I mean I think the parts of the economy where you know involves humanto human interaction and emotion um and those things

I think uh you know will probably be the hardest things for for AI to do. So um you know aren't already aren't people already doing AI therapy and talking with chat bots for things that they might have paid someone you know $100 an hour for? Well therapy is a very narrow domain and I'm not sure exactly there's a lot of you know hype about those things. I'm not actually sure how many uh of those things are really going on in terms of actually affecting the real economy and rather than just sort of more toy things.

Um and I don't think the AI systems are like capable of doing that properly yet. Um but just the kind of emotional connection uh and uh that we get from talking to each other and um doing things in nature in the real world. Uh I don't think that AI can really replicate all of those things. So if you lead hikes that' be a good job. Yeah. Yeah, climb Everest. My intuition on this is that it's going to be some heavily regulated industry where there will just be like a a massive push back on the use

of AI to displace labor or or take people's jobs like healthcare or or education or something like that. Um, but you think it's going to be an easier lift in those heavily regulated industries? I don't know. I mean, it might be, but then we have to weigh that up as society whether we want all the all the all the the positives of that. for example, you know, curing all diseases or or um you know, I think there's a lot of uh finding new energy sources. So, I think these things would be clearly very beneficial for

society and I think we need um to for our other big challenges. It's not like there's no challenges in society other than uh AI. But I think AI can be a solution to a lot of those uh other challenges be that energy, resource constraints, uh aging, disease, um you know, you name it and water access etc. a ton of problems facing us today. Climate um I think AI can potentially help with all of those. And I agree with you, society will need to decide what um it wants to use this these technologies for. And um

but then you know what's also changing is what we discussed earlier with products is the technology is going to continue advancing um and that will open up new possibilities like uh kind of radical abundance space travel these things um which are a little bit out of scope today unless you read a lot of sci-fi but I think rapidly becoming uh real. During the industrial revolution, there were lots of people who embraced new technologies, moved from farms to cities to work in the new factories. Uh were sort of early adopters on that curve. Um but that

was also when the transcendentalists started retreating into nature and rejecting technology. That's when thorough went to Walden Pond and there was a big movement of Americans who just saw the new technology and said, "I don't think so. Not for me." Do you think there will be a similar movement around rejection of AI? And if so, how how big do you think it'll be? Um, I don't know if it'll be I mean there could be a get back to nature and I mean I think a lot of people will want to do that and and I

think this potentially will give them the room and space to do it right. And if you're in a world of radical abundance, I fully expect that's what what a lot of us will want to do is use it to, you know, I think again I'm thinking about it sort of space fairing and and and and more, you know, kind of um maximum human flourishing, but uh I think there will be that will be exactly some of the things that a lot of us will choose to do and but have time and the space and the

the resources to do it. Are there parts of your life where you say, "I'm not going to use AI for that," even though it might be pretty good at it for some sort of reason, wanting to protect your creativity or your thought process or something else. Um, I don't think AI is good enough yet to have impinged on any of those sorts of areas where I would, you know, it's mostly I'm using it for, you know, things like you did with Notebook LM, which I feel find great, like breaking the ice on a new topic,

scientific topic, and then deciding if I want to get more deep into it. That's one of my main use cases. summarization, those things. I think those are all just helpful. Um, but you know, we'll see. I haven't got any examples of what of what you suggested yet, but maybe as AI gets more powerful, there will be. When we talked to Dario Amade of Anthropic uh recently, he talked about this feeling of excitement mixed with a kind of melancholy about the progress that AI was making in domains where he had spent a lot of try time

trying to be very good like coding. Yes. um where it was like you see a new coding system that comes out, it's better than you, you think that's amazing, and then your second thought is like, "Ooh, that stings a little bit." Have you had any experiences like that? So maybe maybe one reason it doesn't sting me so much is I've had that experience when I was very young with chess. So you know um chess was going to be my first career and you know I was playing pretty professionally when I was a kid for the

England junior teams and then Deep Blue came along, right? And clearly uh the computers were going to be much more powerful than the world champion forever after that. And so, but yet I still enjoy playing chess. Um, people still do. It's different, you know, but it's a bit like I can, you know, Usain Bolt, we celebrate him for for running the 100 meters incredibly fast, but we've got cars, but we don't care about that, right? Like it's we we're interested in other humans doing it. And um I think that'll be the same with robotic football

and all of these other things. So, um and that maybe goes back to what we discussed earlier about what I think in the end we're interested in in other human beings. That's why even like a novel, maybe it maybe AI could write one day a novel that's sort of technically good, but I don't think it would have the same soul or connection to the reader that um uh if you knew it was written by an AI, at least as far as I can see for now. You mentioned robotic football. Is that a real thing? We're

not sports fans, so I just want to make sure I haven't missed something. I was meaning soccer. Yeah. No. Yeah. No, no. Uh I don't know. I I I there are there are Robocup uh sort of soccer type little robots trying to kick balls and things. Uh I'm not sure how serious it is, but there is a there is a field of of robotic football. You you mentioned the you know sometimes a novel written by a robot might not feel like it have a soul. I have to say for as incredible as the technology is

in VO or Imagine. I sort of feel that way with it where it's like it's beautiful to look at but I don't know what to do with it. You know what I mean? Exactly. And that's that's what I was you know that's why we work with great artists like Darren Aronowski and Shanka on the music. Um is I I totally agree. I think these are tools and they can come up with technically good things and I mean V3 is unbelievable like when I look at the you know I don't know if you've seen some of

the things that are going viral being posted at the moment with the voices actually I didn't realize how big a difference audio is going to make to the video I think it just really brings it to life but it's still not as Darren would say yesterday when we were discussing on an interview it it it doesn't he he brings the storytelling it's not got deep storytelling like a master filmmaker would do or a master novelist you know, the top of their game. And um it might never do, right? It's just always going to feel something's

missing. It's a sort of a soul for a better word of the piece, you know, the real humanity, the magic, if you like the the great pieces of art, you know, art too. when you when I see a Van Go or a Rothco or you know why does that touch your you know I spill you know um sort of you know hair's gone the back of my my my spine because of I remember you know and you know about what what they went through and um the struggle to produce that right in every brushstroke of

Van Go's brush strokes his his sort of torture and I'm not sure what that would mean even if the AI mimicked that and you were told that it was like so what right and and and so I think that is the piece that at least as far as I can see out to 5 10 years um the the top human creators will always be bringing and that's why we've done all of our tools VO lia in in com in collaboration um with top creative artists the new pope pope Leo is reportedly interested in AGI I

don't know if he's AGI pilled or not but uh that's something that he's spoken about before um do you think we will have a religious revival or a renaissance of interest in faith and spirituality in a world where AGI is forcing us to think about what gives our lives meaning. I think that potentially could be the case and um I actually did speak to the last pope about that and and the Vatican's been interested even prior to this pope haven't spoken to him yet but on these these matters how does AI and religion uh and

uh technology in general and religion uh interact and and what's interesting about the Catholic churches and I'm a member of the Pontipical Academy of Sciences is they've always had uh which is strange for a religious body a scientific arm you know which they like to always say Galileo was the founder and and uh those interest so so but then and and it's actually really separate and I always thought that was quite interesting and people like Steven Hawking and and you know avowed atheists were part of the academy and and that's partly why I agreed to

join it is because it's a fully scientific body and it's very interesting and I was fascinated they've been interested in this for 10 plus years so they they were on on this early in terms of like how interesting or how phil from a phil philosophical point I think um uh this this this technology will be and I and I I actually think we need more of that type of thinking and work from from philosophers and theologians uh actually would be really really good. So I hope the new pope is genuinely interested. Um we'll close on

a question that uh I recently heard Tyler Cowan ask Jack Clark from Anthropic that I thought was so good and decided to just steal it whole cloth. In the ongoing AI revolution, what is the worst age to be? Oh wow. Uh well I I don't I mean you know um gosh I haven't thought about that but I mean I think any age uh uh where you can live to see it is a good age because I think we are going to make some great strides uh with things like you know medicine and so um I

think it's going to be incredible journey. I don't none of us know you know exactly how it's going to transpire. It's very difficult to say, but it's going to be very interesting to find out. Try to be young if you can. Yes, young is always better. I mean, in general, young is always better. All right, Deis, thanks so much for coming. Thank you very much. [Music]