you want to know why we're lonely cuz we've architected Our Lives to be lonely we are social animals of course it's hurting us and so the question is is what can you do and this is the one thing that I learned that was the greatest lesson I ever learned in my life the true skill that we've lost and everybody's guilty of this this s cynic the bestselling author sought after speaker and unshakable Optimist is back with one solution that aims to solve some of the biggest issues we face today everyone's looking for biohack for all
the problems that we're facing today Rising suicide Rising anxiety depression addiction mental health and there's one bioh hack that's better than all of the things that we're trying which is friendship but we are not good at making friends and we're not good at looking after friends there's an entire industry to help people become better leaders to help us maintain better relationships and there's no industry to teach us how to be a better friend and yet people with close friendships are healthier they live longer they better deal with stress less likely to become addicted friendship is
the thing that actually protects us so why aren't we prioritizing our friendship it's because we actually don't know how to do it mass transportation technology social media all of these things they've interrupted our ability to make friends or sometimes we have old friends where the only bond is time but is it a friend simply because you've known somebody for a long time they give you no joy give you no inspiration and if you have good friendship you will not feel lonely so yes friends are allowed to change and it's never too late to make a
friend so how do I make friends I guarantee you you will make friends by learning how to be that's all it takes we've just hit 6 million subscribers on the D of Co um so me and my team would like to do something we've never done before as little thank you and we're calling it The dire ofo subscriber raffle and here is how it works every episode this month we're going to pick three current subscribers at random and we'll send one of you a 1,000 voucher one of you tickets to come and watch the D
SE behind the scenes live with our team and one of you will have a 10-minute phone call with me to discuss whatever you want to talk about if you're a subscriber you're in the raffle thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to do something that me and my team love doing so much it is the greatest honor of my lifetime and I hope it I hope it continues uh off into the Future Let's get to the [Music] episode Simon hi Stephen good to see you again good to see you again it's
interesting because we've had a lot of conversations and um ahead of the conversation today I really asked myself what what are the subjects and themes that are front of mind for me at the moment and subjects that I'm struggling to understand and grapple with and find Solutions and answers to and the sort of macro picture that I have in my head at the moment um is that there's quite a lot of struggle going on because the world has changed quite profoundly and the struggle is showing up in a variety of ways we're seeing it in
our mental health which I know you refer to as mental Fitness we're seeing it in suicidality we're seeing it in the the rise in loneliness which is something we talked about last time but also now there's these other forces at play like artificial intelligence which feels like a threat um in increas in digitalization and a falling connection what is your what is your take on This Moment In Time the times we're living in these are complicated times and complex times and I think they are more important leaderless times um we're seeing the rise of populist
movements and strongman leaders not necessarily because they are the great leaders of the day but because I think people are desperately lacking for meaning and purpose and to feel like we're going somewhere we want to be led people want to be led whether it's young people who are protesting on their school campuses or whether during covid it was anti vaxers or antim maskers you know whether it was brexit or you know I think they're all very much the same whether it's the left side of politics or the right side of politics which is they're all
basically anti-establishment movements and you usually see anti-establishment when people feel forgotten and left out by whatever the establishment is doing in other words they they perceive that the establishment looking after for themselves so I think we leave in we live in visionless and leaderless times that's the big challenge of the day and uh and so we find ourselves reactive to each other and against things but few people can say what they're for so many of my guests have come here and then after the conversation have turned to me and said they're concerned about their younger
child often they reference their younger son because they talk about the rise in the sort of toxic male influences online um and it kind of coincides with what you just said about looking for leaders and now you know some of those leaders that were looking for offering us a blueprint of what it is to be a responsible stable human that involves buying a Lamborghini having multiple wives and showing up in a certain way and I've had so many conversations in fact one of my guests the other the other week brought me a dossier called heroic
masculinity and um it was a woman and she says please can you have more conversations about this subject and passed it to me and the reason she's saying that is because she's concerned her son is growing up in a world where he's not going to know what it means to be a good man or who are the role models like who are the strong male or female role models who are teaching us values who are teaching US service who's teaching us kindness and empathy in in leaderless times and lost times we will follow things that
make us feel good right wealth makes us feel feel good conspicuous consumption makes us feel good because you get that hit of Serotonin and and dopamine this this is the reason why I've become really fascinated by the concept of friendship you know I haven't written a book in a many years and so I've started writing again and uh I'm writing a book with a friend my friend will gadera um who wrote unreasonable hospitality and we've decided to write about friendship because when you think about all of the problems that we're facing today mental Fitness Mental
Health um Rising suicide Rising anxiety depression addiction I mean take your list even people's obsession with longevity and everyone's looking for a biohack for all those things and there's one biohack that's better than all of those all of the things that we're trying which is friendship people with close friendships are healthier they live longer they have better coping mechanisms which means they better deal with stress and I'll give you one an amazing thing so there's um a very famous experiment that's done I think in like the s all of our sort of understanding of addiction
is based on the study basically they put a rat in a cage and they gave it um plain water or they gave it water laced with drugs and it tasted both it got addicted to the water laced with drugs and eventually drank the that water until it died right and so this became our understanding of addiction many years later not that long ago another scientist said hold on there's a problem with this experiment a rat like a person is a social animal and you took this social animal and you put it by itself and then
offered it drugs so you created loneliness and then you offered the drug right if you want to make it a good experiment you have to create the right context so what it did it created they created something called rat Park where basically what they did is they created a new cage filled with things to do and mazes and wheels and and other rats and they were social and the Rats tasted both Waters the one laced with morphine and the one that was just plain they taste and they drank enough of the morphine laced one to
get addicted and then they stopped it it diminishes how much they drank and they only drank the plain water so basically when you have healthy relationships we are less likely to become addicted when we are lonely we are more likely to create addiction right friendship is the thing that actually protects us and then if you look at even if you do become addicted right let's take the the worst case scenario so let's look at alcoholism right alcohol ISM um we know that to beat alcoholism you join AA Community we and everybody talks about the importance
of community and finding your community right but Alcoholics Anonymous knows that there's these 12 steps and if you master 11 of the 12 Steps the disease is probably going to get you but if you master the 12th step the final step you're more likely to overcome the disease so what's the 12th step the 12th step is to help another alcoholic to become someone's sponsor and in other words to become a friend in other words Community you find Community but then the the final step of beating the disease is a friend where where you replace the
community with a friend and you have both and we think Community is the thing but it's not enough yes you can create belonging with community and people where we started talking about it where people are latching onto these these anti-establishment populist movements it's giving them a sense of community it's giving them a sense of of of shared Purpose with a group of people right but it's also providing um new new social connections one of the things we don't do is we are not good at making friends and we're not good at looking after friends there's
an entire industry to help people like us become better leaders I I I'm a part of it I write books about it right there's an entire industry to help people be better parents and if you're going to have a child if you got a child you got a child with problems you know you read all the books about how be how to be a better parent there are no books or precious few books to teach us and there's no industry to teach us how to be a better friend like are you a good friend are
you a good friend to your friends are your friends good to you you know who do you do you call people when you are stuck and down or do you make Tik Tok videos by yourself which you know and you get I mean literally people who are depressed make Tik Tok videos by themselves I don't know how many times they re-shoot that either to post it to get the validation for their feelings but to call a friend and say the same thing you're struggling with is actually more difficult why doesn't the industry exist because typically
we take it for granted yeah yeah so the demand isn't there for those kinds of things but that's what that's the problem which is I think the demand is is is is there and we don't realize it right like we know that our relationships fail and our marriages fail so there's an entire industry to help us maintain better relationships will friendships fail and we think we friends yet we still struggle and feel lonely if you have good friendship you will not feel lonely you may have moments of loneliness and in those periods you will pick
up the phone and say to your friend I need you I'm lonely and your friends will be there you will feel not alone right or um and you and I have talked about this about you will feel that someone will get in the mud with you and I think the problem is is we don't give intention to Friendship we so think about it and you and I are both guilty of this in fact I would argue that everybody's guilty of this which is we've got plans booked with a friend let's call it a lunch a
work thing comes up we call up the friend I got a work thing and the reason we keep bumping our friends is because they'll understand they're our friends so why aren't we prioritizing our friendships why aren't we saying to the work thing I'm sorry I've got a thing I've got if we had another meeting we would say sorry I've I've got an appointment I can't make it so why don't we treat our friends with the same intentionality that we treat any other meeting so one of the things that will did for a friend that I
thought was genius brilliant beautiful will gadera who I'm writing the book with um Will's friend's dad died um will texted him and said uh I feel for you I know what you're going through I lost my mom at an early age um I'm sure you're being undated with calls and texts so I'm not going to call you today but what I will do is I will call you every single day at 9:45 a.m. do not feel obligated to pick up I don't mind if you don't but when you're ready know that I'm calling you and
for the next I think it was 3 months 8 months something he called every single day at 9:45 a.m. and for the first week his friend didn't pick up at all and then after the first week he picked up every day and they talked every day for months like think about the intentionality that somebody who loves and cares about you so much that they will call you every single day at 9:45 just so that you can see their name pop up and the caller ID to know that you're not alone I mean it can it
brings me to tears just thinking about it like how many of us are are that good a friend you know I want friends like that here's a good question like what's a friend like what makes a good friend like I don't even know if we have a definition of that you know I've been asking people and somebody said to me well somebody who's there for you in you know to support you in the hard times that's a real friend right and I got thinking and I talked to somebody else she has a friend who she
calls Mr shoden Freud because he seems to love when things go wrong so in hard times he's always there he's always there in hard times he's got he the shoulder to lean on he's giving advice but in Good Times he's nowhere to be seen and so what what happens is it creates this horrible sort of codependent relationship that you want to keep the hard times because that wonderful human being is always there so you never want to let go and you become codependent and so you realize that there's something called a fair wethered friend who's
only there in the good times but be equally cynical and suspicious of the fou weathered friends who's only there in the hard times because somehow it makes them feel good about themselves but they're not there for the good times and so you realize what's the what's the value of good time versus bad time so yes yes you and I have friends that in hard times we would call them but I would bet money that you have even fewer friends that you want to text out of the blue and say I won an award right think
about that like if something goes wrong I've got a group of friends probably I've probably got a you know a dozen people I could say and say I need your help things have gone hard horribly wrong I I need your advice but if something amazing happens to me that number probably shrinks down to four that I'm going to text out of the blue and go something amazing happened today and not feel like I'm bragging not feel like I'm trying to overwhelm them or prove them that I'm better than them but knowing that they will be
so happy for me and so I've started thinking that maybe a friend isn't just the person who's there for you in the hard times but the person you can go to in the great times think about that I have fewer friends that I can go to when things go perfectly then I would go to and things go wrong so are those my true friends so this is on the journey I'm on I'm trying to understand what friend means and I'm trying to understand the responsibility we have to look after those friends um you look at
all the longevity studies you know all the Blue Zone work sure they eat healthy sure they walk a lot but they also eat with each other whereas you look at some of the people who are promoting sort of longevity and all of those bioh hacks and how you have to exercise the certain way and eat the certain way you'll find a lot of them are pretty unhappy people and pretty lonely people I don't think they're going to live very long right so here's a crazy crazy one here's a crazy crazy one physiologically right what are
the most important organs to keep strong for longevity like we know the data right so I'll tell you what they are right number one heart obviously that makes perfect sense right you got to have a healthy heart if you want to live a long time right second one lungs gotta have healthy lungs to live a long time cardio and all the rest of it right don't smoke like we know that makes perfect sense you know what the third most important organ is I didn't know I was going to say the brain but the thighs thigh
muscles are the are the so if you have a healthy heart healthy lungs and healthy thighs statistically you're more likely to live longer I know I said the same thing thighs do you want to know why because historically thighs are the most important muscle responsible for what motion walking right not exercise Social going to visit your friends before there were cars before there were trains we had to walk to go visit our friends and so people who are mobile if you're more mobile you're more likely to main friend maintain friendships which means you're likely to
live longer so the three most important organs to keep healthy historically as human beings heart lungs and thighs for Mobility thighs for sociability which I think is amazing that we never thought about so all of these things that you know technology has interrupted um mass transportation cars you know uh Tech uh social media all of these things they've interrupted our ability to make friends proper friends where you can look each other in the eye you and I could do this over Zoom it wouldn't feel the same but you the macro so the remote work culture
the rise in as you say screens and phones optimizing interaction out of our Lives I mean like you know if you think about social networking or Uber Eats or I don't know deliveroo um you you're living your life behind a screen in White Walls now and it's it feels like it's becoming harder and harder and harder to make friends also to find someone romantic but to make friends in fact what's the interesting thing is sometimes when I come off stage I'll have it's always young men come up to me and they'll get right up in
my personal space and I go this is strange and then they'll say something to me like um how do I make friends and they and I I respect them so much for saying it because I can see how difficult it is for them to utter that those words and I reflect on I was doing something at Canary Warf and a kid in the front row in a crowd of 500 people they're all wearing suits because they're working in the corporate world he's surrounded by 500 of his peers his age in the front row past the
microphone his question to me on stage is how do I make friends yeah and there's 499 people sat next to him that are his age yep and he's asking in the front row how do I make friends and I it was it's so moving because you know looking looking down on that individual surrounded by people I'm like well you know you the brain the simple brain goes well just turn to the person next you introduce yourself but clearly that was not not the answer because if it was so simple he would just do that and
you said something interesting as well which I think maybe overlays with that which is that we've kind of like lost the art or the skill of making friends y what would you have said to that kid so I'll tell you by way of a story how I would answer that so A friend of mine was uh struggling uh her career it wasn't going as well as she' wanted and her marriage was in a bad place in other words when it rains it pours like she couldn't get a break right and she was in a really
bad place and so she knows what I do for a living so she said she asked me can you help can I come and talk to you and get some advice and I said of course and so we had a standing Wednesday meeting get together we got together every Wednesday for 90 minutes and she would tell me what was going on in her life I gave her some advice she felt amazing when she left me it lasted about two days and then she'd go back into her slump and then we get together the next Wednesday
she'd feel amazing for about two days and she'd go back into her slump and this went on for months this was our pattern right so I thought I was doing good work and then it then I just rinse and repeat right then I remembered my own work and I remembered Alcoholics Anonymous which is the final step the 12th step is service helping somebody who's struggling with the problem you're struggling with right is the way to actually help you overcome your problem so I I have struggles I have needs I have um uh insecurities and I
don't have a safe Outlet to talk to so I she's one of my closest friends in the world I trust her implicitly so I said to her can I need the coaching as well can we split our time 45 minutes for me 45 minutes for you she agreed and it was I was I knew what I was doing right there was kind of an experiment happening which I didn't let on which is I wanted her to help me as a way of helping herself and so what end up happening was it did ceased to be
4545 I we got together and for 90 minutes we talked about me and then the next Wednesday we got together and for 90 minutes we talked about me and then we got together and for 90 minutes we talked about me and within about three or four weeks her life was full on back on track fully back on track because when you help someone with a thing that you're struggling with you actually end up solving your own problems and so what I would say to that kid is find somebody who's struggling to make a friend and
help them make a friend make it an act of service because fundamentally if we dig down deep the the true skill that we've lost is service we've overemphasized taking over giving we've overemphasized selfish over selfless selfish is important taking is important but not at the expense of giving um and not the expense of serving right we've lost we're out of balance and I think we we've lost the ability to serve Society we've lost the ability to serve each other um you know the Prime Minister cores for national service and literally the whole country erupts and
says are you trying not to get reelected you know um what did you think of that I thought it was brilliant I do believe in in in service it doesn't have to be military service you know when we say national service go be a teacher in the inner city for a year you know go go work on a one day a month in a hospital go work for one weekend one day per month in a in in hospice and pal of care right serve other human beings who are underserved or forgotten serve your nation in
some way sh per put you know let the government give you a list of 20 or 30 options of things you can do um and say that if you do these things it makes you eligible for you know scholarships it makes you eligible for whatever you know um I'm a great believer just like you can get at least in the United States very very generous packages for Education if you serve in the military give very generous packages for Education if you do any of these other things teaching you know like we have problems you know
we we we're losing teachers okay well we can fill those gaps why why is do you think that would help our society at large over the coming years if we because I think skill that the skills that people learn when they serve a they learn hard work but they learn to be a part of something larger than themselves and you talk to anybody who goes off and does um volunteer work or takes a gap year where they go and do service or anyone who's gone to combat right and you talk to if you talk to
soldiers uh or Marines who who who've been in the [ __ ] none of them want to go to combat it's not fun there's very very very few combat related suicides in other words suicides don't happen in a combat situation they come they happen when they come back home right um and they all weirdly have warm feelings about their time in combat and it's not the shooting and the fear it's the intense responsibility and awesome feeling to be there to look after each other not just to feel looked after but to look after another I
talked to Navy Seals I talked to Seal Team 6 and I wanted to understand the why of the SEAL Teams these this is one of the highest performing organizations on the planet right and you think it's going to be about Brawn and courage and all the stupid things that the outside world thinks that the Commandos and the special operators have it's actually not that at all which is they care for each other more than others think possible it's their love of each other that makes them special operators and their courage doesn't come from raw courage
I've asked many I've talked to many many many seals and special operators about this they they don't have just raw courage to run into danger and all of this stuff it's that they fear letting down their comrades more than dying and we saw it happen recently where a seal mission one of the seals fell into the water and another seal dived in to catch him and they both died right they feel they fear letting each other down more than dying that that cannot be described anything else there's no other word to capture that feeling than
love that is love at a level that few of us will ever understand and that love is so deep that a lot of them have failed marriages because when their wives say to them it's either me or the or your fellow seals they choose their fellow seals that's love that's love and even my even in my world like you and I you and I have colleagues and co-workers in the military they have brothers and sisters those relationships are real and I remember the first time A friend of mine in uniform called me brother on the
phone and he said Hey brother was the first time he called me brother and I felt it that that you don't use that term loosely it's not a it's not just a generic term of endearment you earn to be called brother or sister and I I remember when he called me brother that it meant something and this guy this guy this friend of mine he's still active Judy he's a combat hero he's risked his life he's put himself in harm way he's saved the lives of people he's an absolute Warrior right he's a he is
by any definition a freaking badass [ __ ] Warrior right and he was the first man who said to me I love you we got off the phone he goes we just saying goodbye to each other we had a nice long conversation we got up there and he goes I love you he didn't say love you he didn't say love you he said I love you that's real and we we hedge because we're afraid of our emotions we're afraid of expressing ourselves to each other we say things like that we say love you even love
you say those three words to somebody they are excruciatingly excruciatingly difficult unless you actually mean it I love you and it was so powerful that now every time he and I talk and we talk politics and we talk Global stuff and we talk leadership we have you know and then at the end of our calls I'll say I'll talk to you real soon I love you he goes I love you too that's how we end our phone calls and I started experimenting I started saying those words to the especially the men in my life that
I love and care about desperately my male friends it's easier to say to a woman is there's less of a stigma right and guys who are guy some of my guy friends who are if you met them you would describe them as not very warm you would describe them as distant or cold or guarded and they are um and I remember taking the risk saying to them when we got off the phone or when I said goodbye to them when I was hanging out with them I said I love you and and in in not
in very short order they started saying it back and we would hug differently and we would kiss each other on the cheek you know and like one of my friends who he's a cold guy he's not he's not warm he's lovely and smart and fantastic and funny but he's not warm it took him a long time and I always said it him I love you I love you and he he goes yeaha okay and I would like hug him and kiss him with the cheek goodbye he's like okay and then he started saying I love
you back and this is what I've learned from the highest performing teams on the planet this is what I've learned from people who understand service that you cannot you cannot have service without developing some sort of love and so I think I think to go all the way back to the question from that kid in the front row how do I make friends you can't make a friend until you learn how to serve because friendship is fundamentally service friendship is an act of service and if you don't know the skill of service then you probably
don't know how to be a friend let alone make a friend I think you have to learn to be a friend before you can make a friend because only people only want to be your friend if you know how to be their friend right which is not like having fun which is not like going out and get pissed with your mates that's fun those are m are those friends that you love maybe sometimes sometimes those overlap that's the other problem and I I live in America where you meet somebody once and they call you friend
and the problem is I think we overuse the word friend right like if you have a a mild melanoma and you have staged for liver cancer we call both those things cancer clearly they're not the same thing and I think we have the same problem with the word friend like somebody you hang out with casually it's it's a laugh you know we call that person friend but then somebody who we have deep love for and we would be there for them no matter what we call that person friend best friend doesn't seem to capture it
either and so I think we need more words like I've started using the word acquaintance I've started using the word work friend uh or deal friend that's like in finance right I like them I get along with them I enjoy them I but if we weren't working if we weren't if our companies weren't working together would I hang out with them as much probably not I probably would make less of an effort right are you are you religious I believe in belief what does I believe in the importance of believing in something and so for
those who choose Faith traditional Faith as the thing to believe in and offer guidance I think that's good um for people who find cause whether it's social cause um or some type of other cause to feel a part of I I think I think it is essential that we believe in something I I believe in belief it's funny cuz all the the subjects you were talking about then about community and other subjects that kind of intersect with that service and purpose these all came inherent within religion yeah religion gave us all of these once upon
a time now in the absence of religion like and the rise in digitalization we're struggling to find those things and we're trying to make them like it's such a good question right which is religion provided a code and arguably a code that you so let let so here's the example right so take the victorians there were some incredibly wealthy victorians who gave tremendous amounts of their wealth wealth back to society they established Charities they built hospitals in fact many of the institutions that exist today were established by wealthy victorians the same is true in the
United States the carnegies and the Rockefellers right and I went and looked this up I went and looked at the tax code from the Carnegie and Rockefeller days or the George Eastman days and I went and looked up the tax code in the UK as well and there was no sophisticated tax code in other words there was no um uh refund or rebate or deduction for giving to charity zero zero there was no tax benefit in the UK or the US for giving to charity and in the conversations with the carnegies The Rockefellers and some
of the wealthy victorians they all said that they believe that they had a quote unquote moral obligation to give back to society and it was born out of religion without a doubt they were God-fearing without a doubt right but they believed in moral obligations to return their wealth and give something back to societies establishing universities hospitals and the rest of it right now it seems that people give charity if they can get a tax benefit from it and the question is is where is the moral obligation coming from and so when we talk about the
fact that people are less religious today but you I think your your assertion is correct people are are abandoning the traditional church membership is down and I would argue that uh because the churches have lost relevance right like take the Catholic church for example like you're trying to appeal to Young People by wearing 400y old clothes and speaking in Latin maybe we genes and speak English or whatever the local language is like if you want to be quote unquote relevant you're not changing the faith abandoning the faith you're not you're not Blasphemous by changing the
the the what you're wearing and and and and the language you're speaking in you're still preaching the faith but you'll find yourself more attractive I had the opportunity to go to Kanye Sunday service back when it was okay to do anything with Kanye um uh I just was invited as a as as I was a friend of a friend and I went to the Sunday service right and it was I don't care if you're religious or not that was a religious experience did you ever go I did yeah it is it's unbelievable yeah and and
you could and and for those when I say for those who haven't gone like anybody could go you just to get on the signup sheet like you could just sign anyone could go was open to the general public it just sold out quick I mean it was free but the the list filled up quickly um and uh basically what happened is there's a there's a band a choir in the middle and the parishioners sat all the way in a circle around the outside you sat there your body was consumed by song and music and it
was and you know there's like Sufi tradition where music becomes the thing the way you the way you find spirituality the way you find meditation or like the whirling dervishes who spin around in the music and the and it's the repetition and it was sitting in this beautiful place consumed by songs that went on for 10 minutes each that you found spirituality whether you had traditional religion you know in your life or not and um there was community and I I for one went with a friend and uh I think that's what traditional Church doesn't
realize which is you can modernize old beliefs and if you do that you will find relevance amongst young people um but young people are looking for something there's something called Hillsong which is an American church but it's the joke is it's like where all the pretty people go to pray um it's young and it's it's relevant and like the pastor has like got a beard and an earring and you know jeans and you know duck Mars and there's a rock band and but they preach the gospel and it has and it fills up entire Arenas
um so people are looking to belong to something and they're looking to believe in something and they're looking to be led and they're looking for community and they're looking for um um codes of conduct and values that they can that they can um uh keep alive in their own lives and their own traditions and um there are precious few of those places left which is why I think people are desperately looking for them and latching onto kind of the first thing that shows up I think it's one of the biggest business opportunities of our time
as well I say this at multiple levels I'm talking about if I'm an entrepreneur thinking about where to start a business but also if I'm an entrepreneur and I'm thinking about how to run my company and my culture I it's funny this I've got one particular opinion that went out of fashion and now has come into fashion over the course of the pandemic which is I always believed in doing things in person and having people together even this podcast never did it over Zoom even through the pandemic we just two meter distance and get if
someone couldn't come in and we weren't going to release I just didn't want to because it's what's the point right but also in terms of company culture I think companies now that offer I'm in so many interviews I don't think people would believe I'm in so many interviews where the candidate asks me to check that they're going to going I was in one yesterday with the young 25-year-old lady um she asked she checked that people were going to come in the office and be together it was almost like she wasn't going to take the job
unless we off we were a community we she was talking about run clubs she was talking about reform of plates she was talking about that she likes to do climbing walls and she wanted to check that we we were in the office together and I think you know good for her you know what I mean but like the the the narrative through the pandemic especially led by the west coast of America was that remote forever and um you know all that kind of thing but it's I've always believed that the fundamental needs of human being
will mean that connection and being together will be will prevail yeah I I agree with that but but but how much damage has to be done until we get there you know and I think we have a responsibility to help people like to to bring people together so one of the trends that I'm seeing in the states at least is young people especially those who started their careers in the pandemic or slightly before the pandemic who kind of fell in love with the whole room the Romance of the you know remote work thing um are
struggling a lot of them are struggling with mental health challenges with mental fitness challenges and when they're forced to come into work which is actually an antidote once they get there they freak out and they think that it's the the workspace that's making it more stressful but it's not it's that you've been at home and alone so much that it's like a shock to the system to come back in you know it's like it's like when you're out of shape and you go to the gym it really hurts you have to stick with it you
know um it's like when you get off drugs and you go through withdrawal you makes you want to go back to the drug right and so my fear is that the connection that it's the being at home in a remote work environment is the thing that's making me mentally unfit and it's not the coming back into work even though it hurts and it's a shock when I come in and I run away from it I I have to I have to stick with it I have to going to the gym I have to stay off
the juice like you know um do you think this is in part because the office is outdated it was a concept that was designed like you know multiple decades ago and the needs of the human being in the modern world if we're saying it's much more about connection and Community like the office itself should be redesigned it should be it should serve more as a community like Center I mean versus just a place to the office has changed multiple times to reflect the times I mean it used to be you know the executives had the
corner offices with Windows and the rest of us had you know cubes in the middle and then at some point we started giving the nice offices to the to younger people on the outside and then we made the outside offices the conference rooms and then we went to open plan I mean like the offices have taken multiple different cultural changes rightfully so the office should reflect the times you're right you know one of my favorite ones is if you visit the Pixar offices the way Steve Jobs helped design the Pixar office is they put the
bathrooms in the middle middle as most most officers have the bathrooms on the outside and they put the bathrooms in the middle so no matter where you worked you had to walk past other people to go to the L and at some point dur the day everyone has to go to the L MH and so that was done on purpose to force you to interact and and have Serendipity um but little things like that um communal eading I'm a huge fan of communal eating I'm a huge fan of like let's go let's let's eat together
um uh you know I built my office to feel like a living room there's like different living room areas you can sit up here you can sit over there but it's just couches and people sit wherever they want and you know people have their quote unquote their desk you know where they like to sit and there's back rooms if you need to make calls but it's all just couches it's all super comfy it feels like it feels like a home if people want to work at home great here's a home literally you walk into my
office I mean you've been there it's a home it's a home yeah it's it's a home and uh cuz I want people to have have that home experience we've got a fridge and a kitchen and you can you know I can imagine the rebuttal to a lot of people that are listening to us where they genuinely they have an hour commute to go into some horrible little cubicle surround they have to wear a suit they get no Freedom so my bias is that obviously I'm the CEO of the company so I have you know these
freedoms and our our culture is much more relaxed and free but there's a lot of people that their relationship with work is it's awful it's like an awful place to be yeah and I think so the question is great okay so instead of rejecting it how would you redesign it to make you want to come in okay you don't want to wear a suit don't wear a suit maybe you only have to wear a suit if you have a meeting with a client that seems if if you're in that kind of business yeah you know
I live in Los Angeles where everybody dress likes everybody dresses like 16y olds but you know that seems fair wear a suit only when you're meeting with a client if that if your business requires that um otherwise where whatever um you know so and so again it goes back to service which is I think that people have to earn the right to complain right and you earn the right to complain by in some small way to fix the problem yourself not exhausting every possibility like you're not allowed to complain about politics unless you've at least
voted right you don't have to have joined a movement you don't have to have campaigned just the minimum the minimum then you can complain about anything you like and so if you've tried to fix the office then you can complain about the office if you just sit at home and whine about it like maybe like get involved and don't do it for yourself here's we go back to service don't do it for yourself do it for the other people who hate coming to work with an hourlong commute to sit in a little cubicle and wear
a suit that they don't want to wear do it for the people you love do it for the people you care about do it for the person to the left and the person to the right don't do it for yourself you selfish bastard right do it for someone else to make their feeling of coming to work better how can you make it feel better for somebody else you work with to come to work and that's what we're missing we're all about ourselves and yet we've forgotten email is another one you know why you get so
many emails cuz you send so many emails stop BC seeing everybody stop C seeing everybody like when somebody says what time is the meeting and you reply all and write 3:00 or what do you want for lunch and you reply and write chicken please like you made everybody open that email you thoughtless bastard right why don't you help everybody else get to inbox zero instead of worrying about you getting to inbox zero so in other words pick up the phone when possible you know send few emails take people off the CC list like I get
an email it's got five people CC I realize that my reply only really matters to two people and I take people off the CC list you know because I want them to have fewer emails because otherwise everybody's hitting you know reply all and then we're all you know suffering from email bankruptcy the um anyway acts of service acts of service I mean there's so many little things there's so many little things um stupid things stupid things I was walking down the streets of New York and a guy was parking his car and uh it happened
to be a huge space big enough for two cars right like and he parked right in the middle and it wasn't like it was his brand new cut he was like afraid of getting it bumped turned it just it was just a car right and I said to him hey I sort of like tapped on the sort of like wave down his window like I waved like hey just so you know there's a ton of room behind you or in front of you if you move your car up or back you'll make room for another
car and he goes there's no room I'm like no no no no I'm standing out here there's you got like five feet in front of you like there's plenty of room I I'll I'll guide you if you want you know I was being super nice about it and he goes I think it's just fine I'm like no no no no I like you another car could he goes are you trying to park your car he says to me I said no but I I've tried to park in New York before and I know it's hard
to find a space so you know maybe it'd be nice to pull your car up and let another the guy would hear nothing of it he turned his car off and got out of the car and walked away and like that's what I mean you know which is you know here's the advice I wanted to tell him I didn't say this but I wanted to be like hey just can I offer you an observation you live in the world like you live in the world there are other people in the world and I'm not asking
you to give up your weekends and work in hospitals I'm not asking you to join the military I'm not asking you to give up your salary and become a teacher I'm not asking you to do any of those things I'm asking you to consider that somebody else might want to par and it's an act of service to like move your car to make a little room for somebody who you don't know do you think that individualism is hurting us on an individual level I mean is that of course you want to know why we're lonely
cuz we've we've architected Our Lives to be lonely of course it's hurting us we are social animals who've over indexed un rugged individualism with hero wise CEOs like I love you you're great you're wonderful but people consider you a hero and their business Guru blah blah blah I know for a fact that you didn't do it alone I know for a fact that you've got teams of people who make you look good what are you talking about I know I know for a fact that people took bets on you took risks on you I know
for a fact that people made introductions for you I knew when you had nothing sure you had Moxy sure you had talent but if it weren't for people who tried supported helped you know opened a door there would be no Steven Bartlett of course even my parents the first people I think about is my parents I don't know why they cared so much about me I was just I feel like you know kids feel they objectively look like such a burden I feel the way you know what I mean I was like why why would
you do that yeah why would my mom and dad care so much about this little bundle of cells I don't understand they would just like kill themselves to you know but it matters but we know parenting matters we know parents that build up their kids confidences uh really really you know parents that are capable of building their kids confidence really really matters you know as opposed to telling a kid constantly to do everything wrong like that'll hurt the kid for the rest of their life and they're going to have to do tremendous amount of work
to overcome that you know it's interesting even on this overlaid with this is the idea that populations in the western world are actually declining because by having less and less kids we're actually making it more about ourselves we want to work longer we want to achieve our career goals and now having kids and that sort of active service of parenting has now become deprioritized and it's a real problem for the Western world because of the you know aging population and very often for selfish reasons like I want to live my life 100% yeah um yeah
yeah I mean I think to your point I think we have we have forgotten that we're social animals I mean like just go back a few years a few decades right so second world war right um the camaraderie I mean think about what happened in in America and in in Britain during the second world war so during the Blitz the number of people who sent their children to the countryside and they stayed back to support the war effort okay they didn't move to the countryside with their children they could have they sent their think about
the insanity of that right now that parents sent their children to the country to be safe to be raised by another family with the full expectation that they would that they may never see their kids again because they might die in The Blitz right like that is incomprehensible to a modern day and yet that made total sense that we stayed back to support the war effort and to be a part of it and we sent the kids to the country in the United States more people died by Suicide who didn't get called to action the
shame of not being call to serve was more overwhelming than the call to service there were more suicides in the United States from people who didn't get called to serve what does this say about the the genz the millennial now that's trying to decide which direction to take their life in but you know all the it says you know go be a lawyer is the clear incentive because I'll get paid more or my you know people would be more proud of me on Instagram if you're saying that service and it also sounds like into intertwined
within there a little bit of like challenge is so Central to being happy how does like the young person decide like make build their life road map what do they what do they need to be adding to that road map got this kid in my head that is currently behind a video game screen he's spending all his time on the internet watching um certain male influences that are telling him to be individualistic he doesn't have a romantic relationship in the world doesn't have any friends he's not really leaving the house much not going to the
gym at all often refer to these IND idual is like being incels on the internet and the rise in that type of individual according to a lot of people I've spoken to is is rising because of the nature of the world and disconnection and lack of friendship and all these things you know what' you say to that person who's probably a guy looking at the statistics well well you and you've talked to you've talked to um Scott Galloway yeah you know he's he talks a lot about this you know um and I don't think we
talk enough about this as it relates to extremism and terrorism and things like that you know where you take a 24 25 26 27 year old uh incel virgin with no social life there's a lot of pent up frustration there and that comes out in all kinds of screwed up ways usually anger usually victimization addictions addictions you know vengeful Behavior you know antisocial behavior um um and if you look at you know even just in the and this this is not a current statistic this is decades and decades and decades but you look at sort
of the rise of uh ex religious extremism in the Middle East you know you take a shame based society where you're 24 25 26 years old you're living at home you're a virgin um the only way you can leave the house is if you like get a job and if you get you won't get a girlfriend and I.E a wife I.E have sex until you get a job and move out of the house and so this there's the and and and and you're in a in a shame based society like the the pressures are extreme
and the anger is Extreme um so I think yeah I think this idea of not knowing how to make friends and finding online community of people who are you know where we all support each other's victimhood is is incendiary I could never imagine Simon cynic in one of your books telling people that they were losers that they were losers and that they suck oh yeah never do that but when I look at Andrew Tate's approach in his videos multiple videos and tweets he really mocks the people that he's speaking to he says your life sucks
you're an absolute loser and then he tries to offer them a road map yeah and it seems to work yeah of course it works why cuz you're validating their feelings of victimhood you're affirming it and then offering them a way out um because if you simply say everyone can be a winner like and I don't feel like a winner you're not talking to me but if I say you've been forgotten like look we we we do it in work all the time it's like the corporation doesn't care about you the corporation prioritize its profits over
you you're like yeah like you're disposable yeah it's kind of a rhetorical clickbait right because what you're doing is you're validating someone's feelings you make them feel not alone in their loneliness and victimhood and then you offer them but you're not just berading them you're offering them a validation and then a and a an a way out of that feeling um and it's not wrong it's it's too much like it's totally fine for you and I to say look if if if you feel like your career isn't going anywhere and yet you have ideas that
you think of how you can do it better maybe maybe an entrepreneur life is for you like we're we're saying similar things the difference is is we're not berating people right but we we definitely want people to feel seen right um I just think you know when you play in the extremes you're playing in the extremes and so you're going to get extreme behaviors extreme reactions you know you you could do the same thing to the same people without riling them up because emotions are a powerful thing right and so you're playing with the Delta
I'm going to push you down even harder you know and then I'm going to show you that I can lift you even higher and I must you know that must make me the savior because the Delta is so much bigger you know if someone is listening now and they are they have no friends and they're lonely MH and they're also and there's someone else that's listening and they are single romantically single mhm the first step to solving those two conundrums finding a friend and finding a romantic partner in terms of where I go like the
physical location that I go to in a modern world where digitalization has just you know social networking exists and Tinder exists what is that place the location because I have so many conversations with people in my life that are struggling on both fronts to find a friend and to find a partner where they're saying I just hate dating apps and then um we've now have friendship dating apps I'm wondering where the location is these days like you know once upon a time it would be in the village it would be maybe at church it would
be at you know somewhere in person but with the decline in skills of building friendships or romantic relationships it feels like both groups are struggling and I've got a particular friend in mine that I don't know what to say to her about this subject cuz she's finding desperate to find someone finding a partner is as difficult as finding a friend um and and it's different for introverts and extroverts right so like me take me for example I am absolutely socially inept in Social places parties bars clubs networking events I am absolutely uncomfortable and inept I
stand in a corner by myself and the funny thing about my career it's actually been helpful that some people recognize me because they'll come up to me and do all the Talking which is like a relief right my my my um one of my best friends makes fun of me cuz she says like when we go to like a when we go to a party like when we go to like like a part party at someone's house or something and there's like 100 people or whatever there is 50 people that all these conversations are happening
like you know these like little pockets of conversations and I don't know how to inject myself into com I don't know how to like saunter up without feeling and looking really uncomfortable and weird and like ruining the relation ruining whatever Dynamic exists and so she makes fun of me because I'll just stand by myself in the middle of the room with my drink perfectly comfortable but like when she stands in the corner and looks around like she goes to like get something she'll see all these little conversations and one person standing by themsel with their
drink and it's me so I'm useless in Social places it's the introvert in me but in unsocial places I'm more relaxed so like put me in a museum and I'm looking at a piece of art and somebody next to me is looking at a piece of art and I actually have no problem saying you like it and it I'm not trying to make a friend I'm but I do like making a connection and sometimes I talk for them for 30 seconds about the piece and it's happened a couple times where we just kept talking and
then you end up having a cup of coffee and you ended up making a friend like that's happened to me is that because of the shared interest you fundamentally know that you I think there's a shared interest I also think and this is a weird thing I actually think it's easier to make a connection when you're standing next to somebody than when you're standing across from somebody so like in social situations like bars clubs networking events you you face each other which I find adversarial and tense and you have to gauge the right amount of
social distance you know it's 18 Ines is actually the right amount you know anything less than that is like too close anything that then too far is weird you know but I find standing next to somebody is easier if you like going for a walk with somebody or strolling with somebody or standing next to somebody in a museum standing next to somebody in a buffet line you can actually get really close without it being uncomfortable so any place where I can stand next to somebody I find it less and and being quiet is easier when
you're next to somebody like when you go for a walk with somebody if you're standing next to somebody you can say a few words and then you can go completely quiet that's not awkward when you're facing somebody you go completely quiet it's just flat out uncomfortable so the way I Define you know social versus um like social environments versus non-traditional social environments is am I standing next to someone or standing across from someone what's something that you're um struggling with and when I ask that question I'm talking about where I feel like every time I've
met you but also every time we've met we've both been at Crossroads and those Crossroads are professional Crossroads personal Crossroads Etc um I'm at so many Crossroads in my life I think that's so where where tell me so many Crossroads so trying to understand get a clearer idea on what my North Star is professionally and therefore what I should be prioritizing and this really relates to like it's not even professionally it's just in life it's like um had a lot of thoughts about I i' I've worried for a long time that the way I'm living
my life is going to turn out to be um my priorities were wrong and that I allocated my my time when I was young that I had to the wrong set of priorities and those priorities that I allocated towards were like work and material success and all those things and that you know I heard there's a story you've probably heard it before about the fisherman who was down by the he had a little boat and he went out to see every day and he went out and caught two fish and came back by lunchtime he
sold one fish to pay for the boat the petrol and the servicing and he s he gave the other fish to his family to feed his family and then then in the evenings and afternoons he spent the time at the beach relaxing with his family and like a guy comes past in a Mercedes and is like listen listen I've got an idea for you what we're going to do is we're going to keep you out on the boat all day you're going to catch four fish we'll C with the extra two fish we'll get other
boats we'll employ people we'll increase the F Fleet we C we'll catch loads more fish with all these new boats we have them we'll take the company public we'll sell it and then the Fisher man's like and then what and he goes and then you can spend the day with your family on the and I kind of look at how I've played my life and I'm wearing that's how I'm playing my life a little bit um there's obviously all all these other things like I'm in the face season of life where I'm thinking about fatherhood
and becoming a dad and how old are you now 31 so I'm right at that that age and my partner's 31 so um that's a you know a crossroad I'm at and uh so what do you what so what are you going to do about it I don't know well what are you thinking about I'm I think I'm collecting evidence to form a perspective that's [ __ ] you have a perspective you don't need evidence you have all the EV you talk to you do this podcast every day of your life yeah you talk you
do no none of the talking on your podcast you do of the listening I'm on to you and we're going to go to ad break now yeah uh so that's nonsense you have an opinion you have a perspective I'd like to know what that perspective is because you're at a Crossroads where you said yourself I'm questioning the priorities I made yeah so that means you have a point of view and I'm worrying that I'm bullshitting myself about why I'm working so why what is the [ __ ] line you're giving yourself why are you working
what's the [ __ ] line what's the [ __ ] answer to that it's like the fisherman it's like and then I'll and then I'll make more boats and then we'll make more boats and then for what reason to what end like why is it important for you to keep having all those boats in the water so I wonder whether that it's about the end or if it's about just the the fun of the journey and that's what I'm that's kind of what I'm not sure is it about the end is it about you know
being able to do have it even greater levels of freedom in the future which sounds like [ __ ] because I've got so much Freedom now or is it life is just about the climb not not getting to the top and having this incredible view but I just have to keep myself sufficiently challenged in my life that's why I'm giving myself more responsibility setting myself bigger goals bigger challenges because the joy of life is waking up in the morning and feeling a little bit scared about today and you know okay so if that's the answer
then you wouldn't be at a Crossroads you would this wouldn't be a conversation so so here's the blunt question yeah what in what in your life is off I think it's probably the balance of my romantic relationship I feel like I'm deferring I feel like I'm telling myself that I'll have I'll really focus in the way that I need to on my romantic relationship which is also going to then become my family in the future and I've been especially this year I've been doing that all year I think that I'll have time for my relationship
in three years when I sell a business or something that's what I've been telling myself and I think I'm I feel that disconnection not just in my romantic relationships but I just feel that disconnection because I've told myself now that I I'll figure it out in 3 years that's when I'll Focus I'll sell this business then I'll focus on you know what's so funny is that if it was a business problem if you and I were talking about a business problem and I was telling you about a business challenge I'm having I'm having and if
I said to you you know what whatever I'll figure it out in 3 years you would say no you figured that out now MH cuz that problem will not go away and 3 years from now you'll defer another 3 Years or new problems you like if this was a business problem you would never let yourself defer that problem for 3 years so how are you giving yourself a different standard for your romantic relationship of something that is of utmost importance to you the desire to start a family one day why do why the different standard
for your per a lower standard for your personal relationship than your professional work I think sometimes our romantic relationships becomes the residual benefit I gets whatever's left it's kind of what you were saying about friendships when you was talking about friendships I was thinking that's that term residual beneficiary like you get whatever's left it's not allocated in the calendar so if there's nothing in the calendar it gets nothing that day but the business meeting gets priority the thing I think relationships are become the residual beneficiary because it's unclear in the near term the impact of
neglecting them so like brushing not brushing your teeth today you would really see it today you won't see the pain today there'll be no Dental visit don't brush it every day this week you also won't see the impact don't do it for 5 years divorce you're in the dental check having the MERS pulled out and these things in life where they're easy to do and therefore easy not to do and the the impact is delayed they always become residual beneficiary and like that's that's the nature of my life like friendships family relationships I've got this
meeting today and I can quantify the return the meet the meeting is going to make me a million or whatever but the relationship not missing the date today or not checking on you're trading you're trading uh consistency for intensity you're Trading brushing your teeth every day for going to the dentist so intensity easy to quantify easy to measure immediate result yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah consistency slow no easy way to calculate have to believe how long yeah like how long does it take to get into shape I don't know neither does any doctor how many
days do I have to brush my teeth every day what if I take a day off that's fine how many days can I take off I don't know and Ne so consistency going to the gym like you don't treat your relationship like going to the gym yeah right which is basically you're out of shape and you're like I'll go to the gym when I have time and then you're surprised that you're out of shape and out of breath so you recognize this and so the question is is what can you do and by the way
you can also just discover the results all by yourself no I don't want to right cuz I've got friends I met one at shortage house the other day and he said I don't know how it happened he go my wife was focusing on her business I was focusing on mine we got 13 years in and the relationship had just vanished and I don't really know when it happened by the way the opposite is true when things go right which is if you invest in the relationship just like you invest in exercise you're like I don't
even know when I got into such great shape but look at this right and it's what I have found is that what makes great friendships what makes great relationships and what makes great businesses is not just the big things it's the it's the countless little things like a corporate culture saying good morning to everybody right just on a daily basis like it's the countless little things that add up to build trust to build foundation and I think this is one of the this is one of the great tragedies of Entrepreneurship which is entrepreneurs have a
unique gift to excel at the things that are easy to measure but how many of them are really good at the things that are hard to measure you know um because what drives you is the ability to say look how much effort I got but look at the return I got for that effort and if I can't show you a return I can only say trust me have faith that goes back to the question of faith I need you to have faith you'll be like I don't know but you know intellectually so if so I'm
going to go so you're a man of action and we're going to get on to you by the way mhm okay so you're a man of action your best you're a man of action if you know that you're not prioritizing your relationship and you're you're overemphasizing work to the sacrifice of your relationship and that your relationship is getting the residual benefits I mean I'm sure that makes your partner feel so special honey I love you I want you to have all my residual benefits I mean but you know what I have to say she's running
her own business she's flying around the world doing her own thing and 13 years from now a studio upstairs which is her business her breath work Studio MH so are you forcing her to take a breath and for herself and take time what I'm trying to do is trying toed yes I know you are you obedient to those date nights yeah these days I am and is she uh yes but they're not frequent enough and this this is a new thing we're trying so I I remember the first time I had the conversation with her
about putting her in the calendar and when people hear that this idea of scheduling time with each other there's this sort of initial visceral negative reaction because what you think I'm like your work or whatever she wasn't like this a little bit um but when I explained the whole residual beneficiary thing which is everything else is being scheduled and our relationship isn't so I want our relationship to be equally more important than all these other things that are taking my diary than we bought into it a little bit and that's helped our relationship a little
bit but then I don't know this year i' really [ __ ] it up like cuz I just over I said yes there too many things and she's got her business and I felt like we're too is it like passing ships in the night are you good at taking holiday no oh holiday what the hell no no you work on a holiday yeah my whole team now I was I well I went to I bought House in South Africa so I went over there but I was I never it was as if so you do
know right that nothing undermines trust more than telling your team you're taking a holiday and then checking in every day yeah know because it's basically what we're saying is I don't trust you to do this without me which I know is not true but that's what you're communicating that I can't even take a holiday without having to double check everybody's work and make every decision as opposed to saying I'm going on holiday if there's an emergency deal with it I'll see you in two weeks by and what you will find is everybody will work to
a higher level because you let them you know what it is though when I was on holiday which was about two weeks ago I woke up every day wanting to do the work of course you did it's called addiction so addiction yeah yeah probably you woke up every day to get a hit yeah I want it's it's how you get your validation I played paddle in the morning but then I wanted to come home and get stuck in yeah but you talked about prioritizing your relationship honey I'll be there in 2 hours I'm just going
to spend some time checking email then we'll go for dinner he was on a bloody laptop as well not saying it's healthy you just sound like well I can be an addict if she's an addict yeah it takes one of you to break the addiction and bring the other one along with I dare you to take a holiday and just start with one day I'm not even saying two weeks one day you both leave your phones in the hotel what do you think is going to happen if I do that I think you'll actually get
along really well and have a great time you might have a little stress to start there's always a withdrawal you might need to do it for two or three days in a row cuz the first day might be excruciating the second day not too bad the third day you will bond like you've never bonded in your life actually um with her have planned a retreat this weekend for for three days and the deal we have is no phones so we have what does no phones mean going to glastenbury this weekend alone okay does that mean
you won't check your phones does it mean you turn your phones off do you put your phones in airplane mode if I'm going to be honest with you I think that's really important it means that I'm still going to check my phones but not when we're doing the activities so if if for example if I like you know evenings if she's getting changed then I'll just quickly check my phone so can I make a recommendation yeah you hold her phone and she holds you hold her phone and she holds your phone for the whole time
so if you need to take a picture of food or whatever take a picture with each other's phone you know you can turn a phone on without somebody's password MH you know and at no point do you say can I have your phone if she goes to the toilet but she takes your phone with you with her and vice versa and you if you're in a restaurant by yourself God forbid you have to just like look around for a little bit okay I'll do that try it okay well my old my my team are listening
now so they'll know that from Friday till Monday if you need me I'm in glass and leave me alone po M yeah yeah so so it's it's a gift don't but don't think of it as a selfish thing think of it as an act of service and it's an act of service to two different people it's an act of service to your relationship but it's also an act of service to your team mhm give them a break right and let them let them solve difficult problems I am a big Manchester United fan and I travel
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episode description link below what are you struggling with um well I'm writing a book and writing a book is always personal conundrums um I'm actually in a really good place right now um you know I think we've talked about this like my big struggle is um I've taken a huge break a big step back from public speaking and it was so much of my life for so long that to some degree like I'm trying to reconfigure what I want to do with my life you know I feel like I just sort of left University and
I'm like okay now what do I do um so I'm I'm on a journey but I'm I like it you left a lot of money off the table many many many millions by making that decision sure so what I don't that's not my calculation I'm the person who I'm okay making less and lying on the beach like I don't have you know I want a comfortable life like anybody wants a comfortable life but I don't need to be the biggest richest most powerful I don't have that in me you know I want to be really
happy and I want my friends to love me and I want to love my friends and um I don't care like my my Tombstone won't have my bank balance on it you want to be successful right in the things that you commit yourself to of course but how I define success you know money money I believe money is fuel right so I it's not that I'm I'm this is not some hippie you know commune you know know thing um I view money as fuel and um just like I don't I don't own a car just
to buy petrol I own a car to go places and I know the value of petrol is it'll help me go places but I have to want to go places and I have to have destinations and so I view my life and my career as a car my career is a car to help me go places and money is the fuel to to make that thing happen but I still have to have a destination and I still have to look after the career and look after the machine to make it well oiled so it can
get from A to B but for me the joy is is the journey that I take on the career not how much petrol I have but if you did the speaking still if you did all this this you know flying around the world speaking you wouldd have more fuel for the mission no I've heard that argument which is if you just doubled down for two years and like said yes to absolutely everything and hated your life for two years you'd you'd you'd be fine and the answer is yeah but what about those two years I
I I you know and by the way um I it's I it's the same mentality I want to work with people I like working with you know I sometimes turn down work from people who I just don't like them you know or I don't trust them even though and um and people have accused me it's like well you can afford to turn work down I was like I don't I've been turning work down since before I could afford it um and I've been saying no to things before I could afford it and when I was
living hand to Fist and had no money in my bank account I still lived a very similar philosophy because for me my career was not just about advancing it was about the joy along the way I I because I recognized when I worked with people who I didn't like working with I literally found myself saying think of the money think of the money think of the money think of the money and I would leave exhausted and yet I would work with people who I loved working with and sometimes I literally made zero like CU I
would like do volunteer stuff and I had so much fun and I left supercharged on life with more inspiration more ideas and more friends than when I started and so I just came to the realization that if it's got nothing to do with how hard I work I work really hard for both but one fills me with energy the other one saps me of energy and so no amount of money is worth having my energy my ideas and my inspiration sapped and yet money cannot buy the energy ideas and inspiration I get and so I
I try very hard it's imperfect but I try very hard to say yes to the things that fill me up and some of them make good money and some of them don't and that's okay um and the reason I keep writing books and the reason I keep having ideas it's not because I'm smart it's not because I'm somehow more creative than other people it's because I'm surrounding myself with people who fill me up give me energy and give me ideas but it's more than that because it's got to be more than that because you're someone
who is so remarkably good at articulation and ideas and thinking through first principles and really coming up with original perspectives on things one of the things I've always really wanted to ask you is is how what is what is the process what is the what is where does the inspiration come from where does where does that come from if people are s they're creative people or their you know they they just want to advance their own knowledge they want to be wise like you are what would you what would you recommend they did so and
you talk about first principles first of all I hate the term first principles it's so condescending right let's just call it beginner's mindset right because that's what you are you're basically pretending that you're a beginner and you know nothing it's or what I like to call it it's a student mindset I'm not an expert I'm a student I've always viewed myself as a student right and so my favorite people are the ones who ask the questions that other people are embarrassed to ask because they don't want to be seen as dumb students if you're in
a classroom nobody Minds raising their hand and asking the teacher how does that work because we're the students MH so I treat myself as a student in every meeting I don't mind asking the questions that I don't know the answers to even if it makes me look like a fool I don't mind saying I don't understand that I never try and be an expert in somebody else's business they're the expert in their business and so when you uh when you say like where does the first principles come from where does The Beginner's mindset I'm not
curious about everything I'm curious about the things that I'm curious about and I ask a ton of questions and I don't mind not knowing answers um I have strong opinions loosely held you know somebody just told me the other day one of the things they liked about me which is like I'll come out swinging and I will argue hard for something but the minute you give me a good argument or a piece of evidence that proves me wrong I'm like yep that's you're you're totally right I'm completely like again strong opinions loosely held right is
there a practice though this is an impossible line of thinking right and I'll tell you why that's like me asking Michael Jordan how do I become a great basketball player it's like well you need some natural capacity like I'm way too short so I lost that one and I can work my brains out but I don't have any Talent whatsoever so work ethic is definitely part of it and I can follow all of Michael Jordan's you know routines and there is no chance zero that I will become a great basketball player not to mention the
fact that he started when he was a kid and I didn't right so I think that you know people come up to me sometimes and say I want to be a public speaker how do I get into the business I'm like well what do you want to talk about they're like I don't know yet I'm like you've completely missed the point like I never wanted to be a public speaker I just had a thing that I wanted to talk about MH right and so you have to have a passion for something and then you figure
out a way to bring it to life you either become a an entrepreneur or you be you bring it to life in a corporate environment or you it like you find a thing and then you find the way to bring that thing to life so number one is like I don't think somebody can just choose to become me like they can't choose to become you um are there things that you could practice that I've learned that will help you hone some particular skill set sure um the courage to say I don't know that one was
a that was a hard learned lesson that was the greatest lesson I ever learned in my life give me something technical in terms of how to deliver ideas and to speak that is transferable could learn that's totally I can totally do that yep I totally give you that number one is what's the motivation of why you're walking up on the stage or standing up in front of the room to give a presentation or you know giving a pitch right um what's the motivation is it to get or is it to give um most people present
to get something to get funding to get a client to get an Applause to get a book sale to get a follower right it's a it's a takers mentality and I had learned to have a givers mentality and literally every single time I have a meeting or I give a speech I will say to myself under my breath out loud you're here to give I have a point of you and I'm here to share it and I don't want anything in return and that has profoundly helped me I just heard a thing that Michael Keon
talked about about how he reconfigured his um uh mind mindset for auditions so the problem with an audition the problem with actors is actors come into an audition specifically to get something I want the role so that I can be an actor right I'm going to audition so that you can give me the role so that I can be an actor want want want take take take right and it's brutal and what Michael Keaton did is he stopped treating the audition as an act of selfishness gimme and he started treating it as an act of
service which is that is I'm an actor my part today whether it's for 2 minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes the part and though I don't get paid my role today is to play this part for my audience of three people here and it still hurt sometimes if he didn't get the part that he's still a human being but his mentality of he treated the audition like the role and the joy he got from being an act so he was a hardworking actor because he went to a lot of auditions not because he got
a lot of parts right and it's the same which is to treat everything as an act of service as an act of giving that the joy comes from being in the room from having the meeting like I give good meeting right because I enjoy meetings because I give I give the people on the other side everything and sometimes we do business together and sometimes we don't but I often find meetings that go nowhere really enjoyable so one thing that everybody can learn is if you have a point of view or if you have a product
if you have a service that you think has value in the world then show up with the joy of giving so number one is showing up to give and uh and if you want like real technique for standing on stage I can give you that too let's do both so on the first point about showing up to give if I show up with that mentality of I'm going to give today does that that also changes the content and the way that I Everything Changes Everything Changes the your tone of voice changes like we've all experienced
somebody who takes versus somebody who gives right go to a shop where the employee is paid by commission and tell me if you can feel it yeah yeah yeah now now go to a shop where the employees given a salary and there's no commission for every sale and tell me if you can feel the difference night and day night and day right so it's the same thing people are smart people can feel when you're a taker and people can feel when you're a giver I see it all the time on stages it's really easy when
somebody's on a stage when they walk up on the stage and the first thing they tell you is put your phones away give me an hour of your time I you know show me some politeness okay [ __ ] that's your job is to hold my attention you know uh when they stand up and they tell you their credentials or just the logo being on the screen when they stand up and the screen behind them has their logo their URL their all their all their QR code all the handles for all their socials when you
ask them a question and they say well if you read my book oh my God right uh my online course like you it's they can't help themselves it's they're dripping people hate that on this podcast in one of our recent episodes a certain guest referenced their book every three sentences and honestly the amount of comments in the comment section that honestly I was like gee why have to have a chat about it as a team because so many of the comments even though it was a great conversation it's done millions and millions of downloads and
Views the people in the comments were like really not happy with the fact that they mentioned their book let's say 20 times in a three-hour conversation yeah but but you know but some in in their defense especially firsttime authors but even multiple time authors the Publishers give them bad advice yes the Publishers say push the book push the book and I always tell people who have a new book just come on and have a conversation with me about what I want to talk about I'll make you shine don't worry it'll be a wonderful conversation and
if people like you they will go find out and they will buy your book and let me plug it you just answer my questions yeah right I had a guest once who um to same thing every my Netflix special my new Netflix special my next Netflix special my first Netflix special you know my third Netflix special on my upcoming Netflix special like it was so gross and I I mean I shouldn't say this on but but we edited I was so annoyed we edited out every single mention and so the total mentions of Netflix specials
in that episode is zero you probably did them a favor CU I took them all out um but it was gross he wasn't showing up to give he was showing up to take and the conversation he never engaged with me he had an agenda and I was simply some platform the thing that I like about the podcast and you look you have guessed that you like more than others not because they're nice people it's because you realize that you're having a nice conversation or you realize they're they have an agenda agenda is a taking mentality
um um so if there's so going back to techniques that I've learned you know like even when I talk about my work I'm talking about it in a way that I've like I've discovered something or I'm on a journey of something and I really want people to come on the journey with me so let me tell you what I'm learning as opposed to look how smart I am look at the stuff that you should buy my book and you know what is that at the the core of a human though that appreciates someone walks up
on that stage or is in that presentation room doing the pitch when they can just feel in their bones that this person came to give versus take what is it like the human level oh it's super simple right because we're highly attuned social animals our survival depends on our ability to trust each other right think about where we came from we lived we're tribal animals that if I fell asleep at night I need you to watch for danger and I need to do the same for you so we we're very very good at assessing are
you looking out for me are you looking out for you and so it's deep seated into our you know our caveman brain that if I sense that you're a taker I I I'm not sure I want to fall asleep at night so where if I sense that you have a giver's heart like yeah I'll fall asleep at night and let you I'll let you watch for saber 2 Tigers yeah so we're very very attuned we can be tricked um we can absolutely be tricked um but for the most part we're we're pretty we're pretty good
at assessing we're pretty good at at at at at at being uh ATT tuned to when someone's a giver or a taker but like I said I am sympathetic I'm not judgy because I know some people it's born out of insecurity or incredibly bad advice that they're given by their Publishers or you know to push push push push push which is the wrong advice just tell the story just tell the story born out of insecurity it's funny I was watching a conversation with you this morning someone you spoke to and you were asking them about
their they asked you how how they find their why yeah and you basically coaching them through that exercise and one of the um you asked them about an early memory in their childhood or that they can remember from their career and you using that as a way to kind of track their why and the answer the first answer they gave you was actually just about validation it was about their school teacher to saying they couldn't do something and then the moment they proved they could yeah and as I was listening to that I thought God
that's not a why that's insecurity and so many of us probably including me um we've confused the confused them I sometimes validation can feel like purpose well that's an interesting that's an interesting I was watching the conversation going oh my God this cuz I cuz the person you were speaking to I know them yeah and I know think I they're very very complicated very very they've said it publicly they're very insecure and I know who we're talking about yeah his response was all about I proved my teacher wrong and I was stood there having this
great career moment and look at me I finally done it yeah and as I was watching I was like that's not purpose that's insecurity and it's even for me in my life I think I I confuse if you look at the first page of my diary when I'm 18 it says says four goals before I'm 25 number one six-pack number two uh girlfriend number three rain drove sport number four millionaire before 25 that wasn't purpose this was all the things that made me insecure goal people I think people confuse goals and purpose but these all
four things made me feel insecure when I was a kid yeah never had a girlfriend skinny smallest kid of four no money in our household and um never never could drive youngest in the year didn't have money these were this was a list of my insecurities in Reverse yeah that makes sense and I thought they were my goal missions in life but I think that's normal you know I think we're all a jumble of who is it who said it it was really nice which is you know we're all seeking validation from others and yet
if you're if you re I forgotten who said it was brilliant but we're all seeking validation from others and hoping people like us and yet if we can just remember to validate somebody else you're ahead of the game you know we're all worried at what people think about us and whether I made the wrong joke or whether I said the wrong thing and the reality is nobody's thinking about you yeah they're thinking about themselves and if you can just validate other people and again this goes to the skill of of of service you know which
is you have to have a friend you have to learn to be a friend um the one thing that I've learned of the course of a career and I'm now in middle age is the people in my life matter more than I thought they did the friends in my life matter more than I thought they did learning to be a human being matters more than I thought it did being smart being successful having the six-pack having the Range Rover any of those things is fun but but the people with whom I share those things matters
more like going to the gym with someone matters more than the six-pack going on the adventure with someone in the Range Rover matters more than the Range Rover who I get to share money with and spend money on and give money away to matters more than the money I make um um what I do with recognition and how I use it to make other people feel seen or heard matters more than how many people see or hear me and um and I think that's the single most important lesson I've learned in a career I think
that answers the question about the difference between insecurity and purpose because insecurity is about me and purpose becomes who can I give this you know what service exactly cuz none of those things are fun unless I get like and I have some friends who are insanely generous and when I say insanely generous you just realize the joy that they get from sharing whatever they've accomplished with and by the way I'm not just talking about financial success like a friend who's an incredible artist and loves to share her art you know and if you're one of
her friends you will get one of her pieces of art this kind of I want to go back to the public speaking advice cuz I really want to get that from you but um this kind of do made me think about corporations and Business Leaders and how they can introduce service into their into their companies as a way to create better businesses well they've a lot of companies have misunderstood what service means they think service is the company gives money to charity or we have a giving day where we all go take a day off
work and work for Habitat for Humanity or something like that we all like the company sponsors a fund run and you know run raise money for charity or something and we give our people you know a day off to go do the run and we all volunteer like those things are good um that's charitable giving and you should do that but that's not purpose that's just do that anyway that's just giving right um real purpose real service is and we've talked about this a little bit before which is um in a in a day and
age where coming to work or staying home has controversy and um and mental Fitness issues attached how do I help redesign work so that the people I go to work with feel safe heard seen when they come to work every day like what can I do at the office to make somebody else feel seen and heard and validated to protect somebody else's mental Fitness that's service teach people that and this is one of the reasons why you know I'm work so hard and like built a whole company to teach human skills because the skills to
do those things are not well understood and their skills remember cats don't have to work very hard to be cats but it takes a lot of work to be a human being and most of us actually lack the skills to be a good human being in things like listening active listening like do you know how to hold space for somebody who's struggling do you know how to do that um do you know how to have a difficult conversation can you have a conversation about race in your company you know um do you know how to
have um how to give somebody incredibly difficult feedback in a way that they can hear it without being defensive um do you know how to have an effective confrontation to go up to somebody who's your level higher or lower than you in the corporate hierarchy and confront them because they did something that upset you in a way that they will hear you like do you have any of those skills most people including people in positions of leadership lack those skills now the best part is those skills are teachable learnable and practice every single one of
them can be learned by absolutely 100% of people just like every single person on the planet can learn to ride a bicycle everybody can learn to ride a bicycle you just have to do a little bit of the work and you're going to wubble and you're going to scrape your knees a few times but I guarantee you you'll get to the point where it becomes second nature and so if you want to build a company that builds service and purpose into the company please please teach people human skills and don't ask me what the ROI
is right that's like what Gary vaynerchuk says like what's the ROI of your mother right like it's everything you and I have talked about what's the r of what's the r of going to the gym one day nothing the answer is zero unless you do it every day and so if you have a company filled with people who are brilliant listeners brilliant at confrontation brilliant at expressing their feelings brilliant at having difficult conversations with each other watch what happens to productivity to engagement to Innovation to loyalty to customer service um just every metric on the
planet and the most important one the joy the people who come to work where people say I love my job I feel like I'm a part of something bigger than myself and it has nothing to do with the product or service we sell I get the ultimate Joy of taking care of the people I work with and I feel taken care of by the people I work with and that is that's about the greatest gift you can give to a company that's good leadership by the way um so and that service to society in the
same and I mean and the reason it service to society is for a very simple reason because if you learn all these skills and my company teaches me these skills even if it's selfish because they want to make their office better and they want more Innovation and more productivity and more engagement fine great somebody who has a who's a better listener and better at confrontation once you have that skill you have that skill which means you go home with that skill and you now H are better able to hold space for your spouse or your
girlfriend or your boyfriend or your children which means you have now improved your relationships which means they feel seen and heard and understood better than they ever have before and because they now know what it feels like they in turn instinctively do it for their friends and their neighbors and those people do it for their friends and their neighbors and before you know it the ripple effect you have World Peace because remember world peace is not the absence of conflict that's not what world peace means world peace is the ability to resolve our conflicts peacefully
there's no such thing as a marriage or a relationship without conflict successful relationships are able to resolve their conflicts peacefully World Peace doesn't mean we all agree World Peace doesn't mean we we all like each other there's something about this um idea of being able to have those difficult conversations which is so Central to the health and Trust of an organization and I've really been learning this recently um over the last couple of years that you can probably predict the amount of quiet dissatisfaction in any team organization family relationship based on their ability and capacity
to have uncomfortable conversations yeah because there so many so many companies so many Founders so many leaders that are listening right now will relate to this idea of quiet dissatisfaction it is when some of your expectations are being unmet by your colleagues your co-workers your employer whatever and for whatever reason because of the culture you've not felt or maybe you don't have the skills to address it and it's now growing and then eventually you'll either leave something will break the company will die um but we now need to start teaching I think especially you know
this generation how to have those uncomfortable conversations for our relationships it's been a game changer in my relationship it's been a game changer in my businesses um and it's something that I'm trying to get even better at what advice do I need to get to get better at it but also to drag my teams up and to make sure that all of us collectively as a culture are creating that culture of like having the difficult conversation today well number one like I said teach it right teach it which is like you know the I mean
I said like I said before which is I recognized that I didn't have the skills I recognized that I wasn't able to teach people the skills I recognized my teammates didn't have the skills and so we started to look for the people the books the TED Talks so that we could learn so that we could be better to each other and it was so valuable that we said okay well what if we taught this to other people as well because I I would just be at a dinner table talking about how I had learned the
skill and how it benefited my relationships and my work and somebody says oh my God can you teach that to me you know and I was like I guess that was a lot of what drove the early stuff from the comp from the optimism company you know that the where we teach human skills it was the skills that I lacked it was the skills that I needed MH and I sought them out I went and took them from other places wherever I could get them um and realize there was a distinct lack of these skills
uh in the world and the best place to get them would be at work again because that's where the people are because if you turned around today and you're working in a business either at any level in a company and you said listen and you just started giving like un difficult feedback or you started exhibiting that behavior on your own you would be so unusual in the culture that that people wouldn't understand it so you can't just listen to us have this conversation then go into work it's like being radically transparent with people no you
can't don't do that don't do that but what you can say and I've done this as what I've said even to my team I've said out loud I realize that one of the skills that I'm lacking in is ex I am going on a journey to hone that skill I'm going to be practicing I might fumble it and get it wrong sometimes I might start acting in a way that you will perceive as weird bear with me I'm just practicing a new skill I just want you to know that I'm on this journey so when
I start acting weird or differently you'll know why and the journey is I'm going to start trying to accept um difficult conversations and feedback better and I'm going to try and give it more honestly and openly is that the the essence I mean if that's the one you're working on yeah you know um you know because I mean I took a listening class many years ago and here's what I learned I learned that I am an absolutely fantastic brilliant listener for Pete with people I will never speak to again for the rest of my life
but with my friends and colleagues a freaking disaster and so when I would have arguments with friends and colleagues and they would say you are such a bad listener I would say seriously like do you know what I do for a living I think I'm doing just fine right and I was right but in a different context with people who I will literally never see or talk to again for the rest of my life and so when I took this class I was like [ __ ] and I remember when I was done with the
class I picked up the phone and like called a bunch of people I said I think I owe you an apology I just took this class and I realized I'm a terrible listener and they were like yeah we know you know and yet they stuck with me still you know why would they do that right but I I fully owned it and and then like even in my relationship like I said I'm learning how to be a better boyfriend I'm learning how to be a better listener I'm learning how to resolve conflict better like bear
with me but I can't do it alone like I need you to point it out you know I need you to tell me when I get it wrong or I need you to tell me you know and so my my girlfriend and I we got really good at sort of like pointing it out to each other like when we slipped up so like when one of us we were having a difficult conversation we're having an argument and I'm saying my feelings and she would correct my facts and I'd be like babe don't correct my facts
I just just telling my feelings and she'd be like you're right you're right like so we both took the education so we could like we both knew the we both knew the curriculum so we could both like we never we didn't take it personally if the other person just helped block and tackle in the middle of an argument and this led to all kinds of remarkable creativity so I'll give you one example of of creativity because what happens is when you learn the skills you become hyper aware of how people are speaking and how you're
speaking in the situation you're not just arguing you're not just trying to be right you're not just trying to defend or prove the other person wrong you actually become hyper aware and you you gain a situational awareness like it's kind of amazing so my girlfriend and I were having pretty bad argument and it went something like this here's what I did right and here's what you did wrong the response was well here's what I did right and here's what you did wrong the response was well here's what I did right in fact here's two things
I did right and here's four things you did wrong right and this went on and on clearly going nowhere it's getting more heated it's getting more aggressive it's getting more personal and and I had the situational awareness to realize this is this is a lose lose situation and I literally interrupted I said okay hey I'm interrupting our argument and I'm making new rules okay currently what we're doing is I'm telling you the things I did right and I'm telling you the things you did wrong and you're doing the same I'm changing the rules new rules
I'm going to tell you the things that I did wrong and I'm going to tell you the things that you did right I'm going to go first and then you're going to go okay here's what I got wrong and here's what you got right and she goes well yeah well here's what I got wrong and here's what you got right and I well well here's what I got wrong and in four minutes we were joking and laughing and hugging and realizing that we were contributing to the tension but also the other person was really trying
interesting it's a nice reverse try that out and literally it was only from all of these classes and skills and practice and practice that I at least had the sensibility to recognize the situation I was in to change the rules Midway because I think part of the problem is even if you have the skills sometimes we forget to um deploy them that's how to be a remarkable listener I always reflect on this conversation I had with um Julian treasure who's the Ted Ted Ted I talker that did a famous speech about how to be a
great speaker and he said he also did a he said that that talk on how to be a great speaker did like 30 40 million views and then he did a talk on how to be a great listener and it did like 3 million views like nobody wanted to listen to that um ironic isn't it it's so ironic but um that's how to be a great listener to just to close off on this idea of then how to be a great speaker we touched on a couple of points there is there any more technical things
you would give me as advice if I was going up on stage and I wanted to be able to connect with people influence them and you know share my message value narrative stories right I mean it's I mean it's so Hackney to even talk about it right right but nobody wants to be explained to right um people will listen to stories and remember stories they will forget explanations and they won't learn from explanations the explanation and the facts and the figures can come afterwards but metaphors stories things that help people understand what you're trying to
say then ex then so most people get it backwards first they tell you the explanation then they use the metaphor the story to prove the facts I've learned that the total total opposite is actually much more effective tell the story suck people in they'll remember the story and then tell them the Salient bits so for example um and all of my work I start with story right um so for example if I'm introducing finite infinite games right um I will say something like um during the Vietnam war um most people don't realize that the United
States actually won most of the battles it fought not only did It win most of the battles if you look at the numbers America lost 58,000 troops over the course of 10 years of fighting the North Vietnamese lost 3 million people which raises a really interesting question how do you win all the battles and decimate your enemy and lose the war clearly there's more than one definition of winning and losing what are you doing there you're making me curious you're creating a curiosity Gap you're you you know I'm emotionally connected to this now or I'll
tell you the story when I went to Afghanistan you know and how I learned what true purpose means where I'll tell you the story of the the A10 pilot Johnny Bravo who risked his life for other people and I ask the rhetorical question at the end of that amazing story you know in the military they give medals to people who are willing to sacrifice themselves That Others May gain and in business we give bonuses to people who willing to sacrifice others so that we may gain I doing like and so all of these things are
ways of making people relate their experiences in their lives to my stories I want them to go yeah so it's no longer about me and my facts and my point of view it's about us and our shared journey and our collective experience people are interested in things that make them feel something curiosity is a feeling um data isn't going to do that data is not going to do that it's like try arguing with somebody with data you know try try try try using facts to prove your girlfriend wrong when you're having an emotional argument then
it's not going to go well right and I think we make this mistake all the time you know we bring we bring we bring data to an emotional gunfight it's never going to go well data has to meet data and emotion has to meet emotion and good leaders and good presenters know how to modulate and so I want people to be emotionally invested in whatever I have to tell them and the easiest way to do that is with a story a story that produces some sort of emotion a story that allows people to relate and
even if it's nothing to do like if I'm telling a story of an Air Force pilot at some point they'll go yeah I want to work with people like that too you know um because I even say that I want to work with people like that MH um um how do I get that at work if I'm not in the military what about you other things that you're doing as you're speaking now I can see that you have like intonations in your voice you're being you're going low than high mhm these like technical body language
things what else what other advice would you so when I tell people I'm an introvert they go that's impossible you you're a public speaker how can you be an introvert and what they misunderstand is that is that one thing is unrelated to the other but more important that being an introvert actually makes me a better public speaker because I don't like holding Court I like talking to an individual and so when I'm on a stage I look at one person in the eye and I give them an entire sentence or an entire thought and then
I'll go to somebody else and I'll give them an entire sentence or an entire thought I just make sure to do something called painting the edges which is I make sure that I'll get somebody in the upper left the lower left the upper right the lower right the back middle the front middle not necessarily in an order but I just make sure to make eye contact with somebody in each area of the audience and I have an like I said and by the way it works in meetings too if you're sitting meeting with half a
dozen people a dozen people and you're telling them whatever it is you're telling them look somebody in the eye give them an entire sentence or an entire thought and look you and I you can feel it you can feel that connection so I did an experiment I was standing on a stage like a thousand people whatever it was and I was just doing Q&A and somebody was asking about speaking and I was telling them about eye contact and giving an entire sentence and or entire thought to one person and I picked just a random person
in the audience and I looked at them and said okay I'm going to keep talking to you I'm going to look you in the eye I'm going to keep talking to you until you feel a connection and all I want you to do is I will keep looking at you and talking to you and I want you to raise your hand when you feel some sort of you know connection and about eight people around that person all raised their hand and that's why works because I'm actually connecting with everybody even though I'm only actually looking
at a few MH um so eye contact as opposed to scanning and panning like talk to a person talk to a person and the same in a meeting talk to a person make it feel like you're talking to them most of us are very bad at that we we don't we we sort of scan and Pan the whole time the other thing you said earlier which kind of I've overlayed with that which I've noticed in you is that vulnerability is another way to make your message really land and to feel connected to what you're saying
and you do that well because you'll often bring it back to you and your feelings and you'll share things with people that others might not share MH and that for some reason makes your message even more powerful well I don't think of myself as special and even though I'm standing on a stage I don't think of myself as talking down to people and so one of the big things that I do on purpose is I use we instead of you unless there's a very specific reason why not to so for example I'll say I'll never
I'll I'll never say you need to do everything in your power to live a life of service because until you learn to live a life of service you will never find happiness you will never hear those words come out of my mouth I'll say things we need to all learn how to do the things that give us a sense of service because none of us will ever find happiness until we learn to live lives of service I'm on the same Journey I'm on I have the same struggles I am imperfect and bumbling myself and so
how dare I stand on the stage and tell people what they need to do when I haven't got it all figured out myself yet right I will share what I'm learning on my journey but we are going on this journey together shoulder Tosh shoulder side by side and you will teach me things and I will teach you things but I'm in it and so I one of the reasons I think my work connects with people is I don't think that I'm above anyone I think I'm right in it with it and I do I come
up I come as a student and I share what I'm learning on my journey and I and I and I learn from questions and I learn from comments and I learn from people and I learn from the debates I have and I learn from the discussions I have and I love it um all of my works are incomplete and imperfect but they're they're steps forward Simon we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to leave it for and the question
that has been left for you is what area of your life do you still think you need some good advice on I mean it's I mean every area of my life I've got none of it figured out I don't understand Finance I mean I'm kind of an idiot when it comes to that stuff and I sit in these meetings and people talk to me with jargon and I literally I feel so dumb you know uh my mind just doesn't my brain just doesn't work that way but um you know yeah I mean I'm I'm I'm
learning to understand some of the stuff that I'm supposed to know you know literally personal things or no I mean work things like like like deal making like I don't understand any of it like you and I were talking before the camera started rolling like about valuations and like I kind of understand I mean this is one of the really interesting things is I think our success kind of correlates to us even admitting that there's things we don't understand I think the greatest entrepreneurs that I've sat here with um are great because they're very good
at knowing what they absolutely don't know I remember Richard Branson telling me when he was on my podcast in New York he was saying um he' built like the biggest one of the biggest groups in Europe called The Virgin group and he was like 55 years old and sat in a meeting with his directors and they looked at him and said Richard you don't know what profit is do you and he goes no yeah he didn't understand I read a p&l yeah and so they took him outside of a room he said to me that
they drew a picture of an ocean and with crayons he said use the word crayons and he said they drew a net in the ocean and put fishies in the net and said Richard the fishies in the net you get to keep that that's your net profit Richard goes got it and the fact that he had been able to build such a mega business without knowing the basics and he goes I go why and he goes well because in in his business because I'm a dyslexic thinker he said I've always just like asked who not
how yeah I've just I've always had to delegate yeah and a lot of people I I but I I'm the same like I I I know what I don't know and I trust myself when I know things and I don't trust myself when I don't know things the mistakes I've made and the and I've made the same mistake over a few times which it causes me a bit of self-loathing um which is when I didn't understand something and my insecurity about not knowing that thing made me overly trust somebody who claimed that they would guide
me and help me and they did know the thing that I didn't know and the mistake that I made was I never really like those people or trusted those people but because their skill set um you know bolstered mine I let them tell me what to do and I did what they told me and 100% of those times I got [ __ ] and those people um ended up taking advantage of me what's the lesson um that you've learned my the lesson is trust my gut right which is and I don't mean to make my
own decisions about everything but if I if I believe the advice that I'm being given by somebody who knows more than me literally about something I don't understand and if it feels wrong it doesn't mean the advice is necessarily wrong find a different person yeah and so I the mistake I made was rejecting all advice that felt wrong no no no you can't do that but what I have learned is to reject the people who feel wrong and that's the lesson and I wish I knew that then I wouldn't have made some of the some
of the worst mistakes I've made in my career um unfortunately taught me that lesson so interesting and the thing that annoys me is I made it more than once I had a meeting yesterday where the guy presented something to me and knew so much more about that than me the subject and my I just didn't my body just didn't connect with him in some way and I found myself questioning something I didn't know yeah a subject I didn't know but as I walked out the meeting i' go no it was the guy you didn't you
didn't like something what does waren Buffett say you can't make good deals with bad people yeah you know exactly and cuz I do deals with people who know a lot they they could take advantage of me I have people that I've worked with that absolutely could bamboozle me um but they didn't you know because they're good people because they're good people this is unfortunately why we have lawyers is because you need you know people will take advantage of you and it's it's sad you and I both know this which is the best deals you you
you go with the lawyers and you Rumble and you you go through all the terms but once the deal is signed you'll never look at that contract again for the rest of your life and if you did I can guarantee you that both sides have breached that contract and violated the terms multiple times but you don't care because you trust each other you know that a relationship in a business deal has gone horribly sour if you refer to the contract well according to the contract that deal is done yeah because great business relationships you never
pull the contract out ever you've and you break it all the time pay late work too many hours take advantage of each other overuse things nobody cares because there's trust Simon thank you so much I am if people haven't seen it yet people haven't checked it out I highly recommend everybody go and check out the optimism company because your um all the things that you've talked about today and all the skills that I think are deficient in society and even the idea of how to like how to the win friends um influence people listen better
communicate better so that we can resolve problems and move in the same direction all of those things are taught and answered on the at the optimism company I kind of look at it as like a modern University that's filling the deficit of skills that the uh all of us I was going to say the younger Generations but it's really all of us have started to either disregard or lose sight of um and it's and it's nice that in a world where education is teaching us so little about how what it is to be a successful
human being and friend and partner and colleague and leader that you've created a business that Endeavors to fill that hole um it's remarkable it's really really actionable um great very very experienced teachers on at the optimism company and it's delivered in such a a friendly way and when I say friendly I mean friendly to a brain like mine that is that isn't tremendously patient so I recommend everybody go and check it out I'll link it below as well and we're all very excited for your next book about friend oh that's very nice of you thank
you I love coming on here I always learn something I love that we get to take an idea and wrestle with it and uh and I always appreciate that that you push uh and you push for the the best reason of all which is because you're curious to understand more and in so doing you always teach me so thanks again for having me on it's I I it's always such a joy thank you so much Simon thank you how many of you started thinking about your long-term Health when you hit 30 for me this was
a wakeup moment of me thinking to myself okay I probably need to start paying a little bit more attention now I already felt a change in myself when I hit 30 with things like my metabolism my energy levels so this year is no different Zoe which is a company I've invested in but also a company that are a sponsor of this podcast helps me to make smarter food choices all based on their world leading science and my own test results if I'm ordering food I know how to make my takeaway so much smarter by adding
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