THE HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE by Michael Talbot (Remastered)

[Music] [Applause] thinking aloud conversations on the Leading Edge of knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey mishlov [Music] hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey mishlove today we're going to be exploring the holographic model of reality and its implications for ourselves our bodies and the world around us with me today is Michael Talbot author of several books including mysticism and the new physics beyond the quantum your past lives and most recently the holographic universe as well as three novels welcome Michael thank you Jeffrey it's a pleasure to be with you nice to be with you you know one

of the things that you point out in the holographic universe is that this is a model that's been around now for a few decades right really beginning to show its power in explaining many many areas of personal experience and and science at the same time can we talk a little bit about how the model developed uh sure it was developed by two two men uh University of of London physicist named David Bowman there's a performed Protege of Einstein and a Stanford University neurophysiologist named Carl pribram and they worked independently pribram was studying memory and found

that there's evidence that the brain operates holographically and bond was studying subatomic physics and found that on the subatomic level the fabric of reality seems to possess properties that are reminiscent of a hologram so if you put those two ideas together that our brain seems to be holographic and the universe is holographic it suggests that maybe it's compelling evidence that that the universe may be a kind of hologram not that it's literally a hologram but that it's a good metaphor a way of understanding the universe now when you say it's holographic what do we mean

really uh that in a nutshell that reality may be more plastic and changeable like an image than a solid construct a sort of sticks in Stone's world has a couple of other implications one of which is that a hologram has an unusual property if you take a piece of photographic film that has a holographic image encoded in it that means that you cannot see the image with your naked eye you have to reconstruct the image you have to shine a laser through it so if you have an image of Rose in the film shine a

laser through the rose you'll get a three-dimensional image of the rose on the other side you cut that film in half shine a laser through each piece you'll get a whole rose out of each piece which is a very unusual property and sort of boggles the imagination at first uh cut it in four you get four rows just cut an eight you get eight roses so the universe is a hologram it means as William Blake said that quite literally you can find the universe in a grain of sand that every portion of the universe contains

some semblance of the whole of the whole universe that's very profound very it's I mean it's it's mind-boggling and you know one of the things that you point out in a footnote of your book that I would like to mention is that this doesn't apply for many of the kinds of holographic images that are popularly so right pendants and the like that don't require laser light right every every talk I give someone comes up and says they cut the you know the Hologram in half on their credit card and ruined it and didn't get the

effect and it it only applies to those images that you cannot see with the naked eye that you have to reconstruct if you were to look at holographic film it might look like ripples on a pond unless the laser light is shined through it right if you there's no decipherable image in the film and it very much does look like ripples in a pond like when you drop Pebbles into a plant there are all sorts of little circles they're called interference patterns right the same as when you drop two pebbles in a pond and the

and the ripples crisscross that is exactly what is in the film it's the crisscrossing of the laser light that's recorded on the photographic film so there's the sense about a hologram that there's two levels one is this three-dimensional image that's projected and it can look so real that you want to reach out and touch it and in the other level are these interference patterns right that that reality in a hologram is can be can manifest in two ways as a concrete image or as as this sort of indecipherable blur of energy and it an analogy

to this is kind of when you're watching Johnny Carson your television set that's really His Image is encoded in two ways one is as the concrete image on the TV set one is as the blur of radio waves permeating the living room and if the universe is a hologram of some sense in some way it suggests that there may be two very drastically different levels to reality that the concrete reality we see you know when we look at these chairs and at you know the trees and the clouds and everything like that our bodies are

are just one way that reality manifests and at some deep level there's another there's a level of reality where everything dissolves into a an ocean of energy that is holographically interconnected where every portion of the universe is contained in every tiny area of the universe so that implies that this notion that that we go about our everyday lives with the thinking of ourselves is separate from each other and the cup is separate from the coffee that goes in the cupboard that these Notions are are somehow what would you say superficial or contradicted at a deeper

level uh well they're artificial definitely and Balm really stresses this and it's it's a very interesting notion because in our Western way of thinking we're so attached to the idea that when we come up with a concept like a an apple or an electron or whatever that that exists out there and we forget it's kind of like fish unaware of the water in which they swim that the conceptual pigeon holes we use words to to describe reality are phenomenon inside our head they're not out there and most of the time this is a philosophical quibble

when but when you get down to quantum physics and this is one of the reasons that Bohm came up with a holographic idea it it starts to have real effects and one of those is it's been discovered that if you take two subatomic particles like electrons and in certain instances when you do something to one it will always affect the other no matter how far apart they are it's kind of like stories that you've heard of identical twins where when one is hurt the other feels the pain and the problem is is that we can

find no process known to physics that explains how these could be sending a signal back and forth in fact because it would have to be faster than the speed alone instantaneous would have to be an instantaneous signal and Einstein's theory of relativity said you can't have instantaneous signals because it would mean that you could violate the time barrier and conceivably call your grandfather and tell them not to marry your grandmother and most physicists say well this would be just too troubling to to incorporate into a a rational picture of reality boam explains it in a

different way which is a very interesting way and he says if you imagine that you've got an aquarium in which you have a fish swimming you have a TV camera facing the front of the aquarium one facing the side of the aquarium and you have a monitor attached to each camera and you also Imagine further that you come from a culture that's never seen aquariums never seen fish never seen monitors or cameras all you are privy to is the two images on this on these screens he says that maybe you know if you look at

these two screen greens you're going to see efficient a side view of a fish in a frontal view of a fish and if you because you don't know what the deeper reality is the reality aquarium you may assume that these are two separate things and but two different fish two different fish two different objects but every time one fish moves the other is going to make a corresponding movement and you may then jump to the conclusion that somehow the one fish is signaling the other communicating the other to say hey do this instantaneously and boehm

says this is what we've done with subatomic particles that we assume that an instantaneous communication is going on when that's not really what's going on at all at a deeper level a very holographic level reality every particle in the universe collapses to a sort of cosmic Unity they're not signaling each other they're like that fish where there's the level of the aquarium and so what that means talking about words is that there is no separation between electrons furthermore there's no separation between people and this has all kinds of very boggling implications one of which is

that we've always tried to understand for example psychic phenomena like how how could I get information out of your head in my head as some sort of signal going back and forth but if we're organized if we live in a universe that's organized holographically you no longer have to tackle it that way it could be that I have the entire universe and every neuron every cell every atom every electron in my head and you do also so when we can access that we can access information that seems to be beyond our normal sensory reach well

you know I'm very interested in psychic phenomenon and I know you've had many personal experiences and I want to touch on it but this is not a model that was developed in order to explain psychic phenomenon I think to neuropsychologists like Carl prebram the the fact that it happens to provide an explanation for psychic phenomena is almost a bit of an embarrassment that he developed the holographic model because he was trying to come to terms with memory right so let's talk about that sure program was working under a very famous neurophysiologist named Carl Lashley and

it was at a time when it was believed that memory was stored in a specific spot in the brain and there was something called the proverbial grandmother cell that there was literally a cell in your brain that contained the memory of your grandmother what you knew about your grandmother and so they did a rather gruesome series of experiments for animal lovers but it came out with some very profound information they took rats and they taught them how to run mazes and then they would surgically remove various portions of the brain problem and his his um

Mentor Carl Ashley the reasoning being that if they found a if they could remove the a portion of the brain and the rat could no longer run the maze they'd found the area of the brain where the rat's memory of the maze running ability was encoded now every time they removed a different portion of the brain they discovered that they could never remove the memory of how to run the maze they could impair the rat's ability so it might limp through the maze but they couldn't remove it and really uh you know surgeons had known

this for a while doctors have known this for a while because when people have head injuries they don't forget half of the alphabet or half of their family or half of a novel they read they have Global memory impairment where their entire memory may be hazy but memories don't seem to be stored in our heads in the same way that books are stored on a Shelf and it wasn't until the 60s when program encountered the holographic model that says that the hole is contained in every part that he said aha this may be what's going

on in the brain specifically because a hologram is made out of interference patterns the Hologram that you see you know that we talked about earlier is made out of the interference pattern laser light but it can be made out of the interference patterns of any kind of energy electromagnetic energy electricity uh x-rays even and so private said since our synapses are constantly giving off electrical impulses these are like proverbial pebbles dropping into the sort of electromagnetic pool of our brain they're sending out ripples that are constantly crisscrossing and he believes that's what the brain hologram

that's what how we think and how we remember is through that hologram inside the head it would uh apply in another sense too because if if you take a hologram image and cut it in half or in quarters or intense each time you reduce it in size the image becomes fuzzier and fuzzier even though the whole image is there Just the Way memory would seem to be and it becomes fuzzier when you you have Porsches the brain removed yeah right in pribram then also notice that the same principle applied for visual information processing well yes

it's very interesting he did not make the discovery but he came upon the research done by other res other investigators and that is another very interesting thing uh as you know Mother Nature uses all kinds of mathematical languages that when we go to understand physical phenomena we generally find that there's some sort of mathematical underpinning to whatever the phenomena is there are uncountable mathematical languages it turns out that the mathematical language involved in the making of the Hologram is a system of mathematics and developed by a French man named Fourier they're called Fourier transforms well

it also turns out that our brain uses Fourier transforms to translate visual information this is a very unusual State of Affairs it's kind of like discovering Eskimos speaking Spanish you know it's not proof that the brain is a hologram but it's it's suggestive that the brain is a hologram and it turns out in fact all of our senses appear to rely on sort of Fourier transforms that they all seem to use the same mathematics so again here's evidence that the brain uses the same mathematics to decipher the sensory world as are involved in the making

of a hologram which is as I say not proof but compelling evidence that something is going on well what this seems to suggest is a new way of looking at Consciousness itself very much so yeah um it's and it's an interesting thing I I have to say that I differ a little with pribram because pribram thinks that the brain you know as I said that it's the electrical interference patterns of the brain that is a brain hologram I'm kind of a Mystic because you know at a young age I had an out-of-body experience where I

left my body and it became quite apparent to me while I was having this experience that I was thinking but my brain was back in my body which I could see in my bed I knew it wasn't just a dream because I floated out over uh the ground outside my family's house and I saw a book uh on lying on the ground and it was a book by the French short story writer uh Gita Mo Paso and the next day a neighbor said by the way Michael I lost a library book by Guida Mo peso

have you seen it and I thought well I floated over it last I didn't tell the neighbor that but there there was the book and I I was always very I'm still very scientifically oriented I want to understand the world in scientific terms but it was really the first time that I sort of had to confront you know the difference between my spiritual beliefs that we can survive you know our bodily death and this deeply held belief scientific belief of mind that it's the brain that's doing the thinking and I realized it was I had

a kind of epiphany where I thought I it isn't the brain that's doing the thinking so I I am not entirely certain that that it's just the electromagnetic interference patterns that is the brain hologram because those obviously would perish when the brain perishes I think there might be some Southern level some subtler energy that we haven't discovered with our technology that's involved in this also well balm's model is irrelevant and interesting at this point because he's not dealing with the universe as a hologram made out of electromagnetic interference patterns he's looking at Quantum wave potentials

which is right in a much deeper level and I must say I've heard from discuss it much the same way their Quantum wave Potentials in the brain itself which is is a much more deeply embedded level of energy and matter than than the electromagnetic level right uh bone it's it's a funny thing in science um uh the great physicist uh Herman Bondi said called it the lure of completeness that that we tend when we find some sort of outermost perimeter to what we can measure we assume there's nothing Beyond it and I I refer to

it it's kind of like the the you know in ancient times when we only knew a certain portion of the world uh people always seem to say Beyond the Edge of the map there be monsters that there was nothing there and the same thing is going on in physics that we have with our technology reached down to a certain level in in reality and it's a common Prejudice among many physicists that beyond that level there's not nothing exists there be monsters there there's just a void and it's it's an interesting thing that that we as

I say we have to have this lure of completeness we have to feel that our knowledge of the universe is all that exists in the universe Bowman I think is very wisely is one of the few physicist who comes out and kind of says the emperor has no clothes says what rational basis to it's just Prejudice that we assume nothing exists Beyond this level of reality and he feels that there are all kinds of of domains of reality Beyond this level this microscopic level and he theorizes that there may be Untold uncountable subtle subtler energies

in these levels the quantum potential is one it's a theorized theorized field that has not been measured or discovered with science but bone feels there's there's evidence to posit its existence and it's now rather well accepted I understand it among Quantum physicists I I wouldn't say that I no it's it's pretty controversial and the reason it's controversial is because the standard explanation of quantum physics has bought has decided that this lure of completeness that there's nothing Beyond yeah you know the Danish physicist Niels Bohr was one of the founder of quantum physics basically said there's

you you get it down to a certain level of reality and Things become blurry and you can't know anymore and boom takes a very different route which at this point is very uh sort of looked down upon by a lot of physicists because most have been schooled in the the way of Boris thinking yes and boom the quantum potential is not looked upon kindly by most visits I would say well I don't think we want to get into too technical a discussion of quantum physics at the moment but I I do think it's important to

bring up the uncertainty principle because it it in a way it's where physics comes full circle and and as I understand it physics are saying well there may be all kinds of stuff but we'll never know it because we interact with it anytime we attempt to look at particles Beyond a certain level the very Act of observation changes things and and that brings us to a point where we realize that the distinction between subject and object breaks down right but they but physicists get very funny about it they get kind of schizophrenic because they they'll

openly admit that subject and object breaks down there but they say that somehow this has no effect in the real world this does not translate from the microscopic level to our level although there is a sort of creeping evidence in the scientific world that it does translate into our level um one obvious example I think that it translates into our level is that helium cannot be frozen solid it's you can freeze hydrogen solid you freeze you know carbon dioxide solid but helium for helium the the uh to go to become its atoms to to align

in a solid form would violate the uncertainty principle and nature doesn't seem to allow that so you can't no matter how cold helium gets it remains a liquid that to me if you you can have a beaker full of liquid helium and that exists at our level of existence and it's it's a sort of manifestation of uh the uncertainty principle and it's where it's sort of slipped over into our world there are other things uh going on right now that where there's a device called the squid which is a sort of electrical coil in which

it looks like we may be able to demonstrate that the current if you say which direction is the current going in the coil it's going both directions at once which is kind of an impossibility but to simultaneously do that that it that too is a Quantum phenomena that these two realities are overlapping so I think we will cross that barrier well I I must admit Michael I'm not sure that I totally grasp the implications of those examples but the examples I would like to focus on that do seem more relevant are the ones that suggest

the enormous ability of the mind to affect systems in the body uh the placebo effect the work with the healing and visualization uh well this this gets away from Bowman into problem but it's equally interesting with equally profound implications pribram as I said says that we're thinking with Holograms inside our head and that out there exists something that's more akin to the radio waves in the room from which TV gets the image so in essence we're kind of conscious TV sets and what we think is reality when we look out here is really just the

image on the TV set inside our mind but doesn't exist out there and prybrum says this is why there's all kinds of evidence that we seem to respond to respond more to the models of reality in our head than out there on in the holographic Universe I give an example of a psychologist who did a study where he took soldiers and marched them all the same distance but he told some they marched like you marched them all 30 my or 20 miles but told suddenly March 10 something March 20 something March 30. but they all

March the same distance at the end he took physiological readings and discovered that they were that they're physiologically they responded not to the actual mileage that they had marched but to what they had been told the model of reality that they assumed they had the reality in their heads and in medicine people have used this this application the holographic idea that we respond to the model of reality say this may be why we respond more to um to to the placebos to fake drugs there's a very famous example of a fellow who had a lymphatic

cancer tumor is the size of oranges all throughout his body his doctor basically thought he had about three days left to live the fellow heard about a new drug called creebiosin and said you've got to give this to me and the doctor said well frankly you know I don't think you have long to live in this drug take several weeks to take effect the man implored him and the doctor gave in sort of as an act pity he gave the man cree biosin and three days later the man's tumors melded as the doctor put it

like snowballs in a hot stove completely gone out of his body faster than the strongest radiation treatment could have melded them away man is up around walking around his hospital room resumes his normal life seems to be completely cancer-free several months down the line he reads an article saying Cree biosin isn't that effective boom boom boom all his tumors come back he's back in the hospital the doctor starts to realize that maybe it wasn't the drug that cured the man but the man's belief so he lies to the man and he says those articles are

wrong creebiosin is effective in fact I've got an even more potent version of it he injects just salt water into the man's veins again the man's tumors melt away he resumes his normal life unfortunately many months down the line he reads final studies on crebos and saying it's completely ineffective boom boom boom Miss tumors come back and he dies but the the bottom line is somehow this man had the ability to access some deep level of healing caught himself it wasn't the drug because salt water worked just as well as this alleged drug and so

again here's an instance where he responded to the model of reality in his head this deep belief that this drug would heal him even though he wasn't even receiving the drug at a certain point in his treatment and his body responded in kind and that to me is the most exciting aspect of the holographic idea and there are countless examples of it there's a study of a new chemotherapy in England where they took a group of cancer patients half the patients they gave the drug half their patients they gave a placebo a fake no one

knew who was receiving the real drug or not they told all the patients this is a very toxic drug may cause you to lose your hair thirty percent of the people receiving just the fake lost their hair and when I first heard this I immediately thought oh my gosh about every donut that I'd ever eat in my life and thought Oh this is really bad for me that I'm I may be responding to the model of reality more than than you know the nutritional aspects of the donut well I think the stories of this kind

have been known to scientists hundreds hundreds of years but they've kind of been dismissed because scientists haven't had a good way to look at the possibility that Consciousness can affect physical systems that we think of Consciousness as an epiphenomenon right but if if one considers that there are standing ways interference patterns and in the brain holographic images it gives Consciousness a I hate to use the term mechanism because I don't think that's quite the right term but it gives people a model in which they can begin to appreciate in more the role of Consciousness that's

true and it also can be applied in another way because if if the universe is organized holographically we've always believed you know that there is no connection between the brain and the body and of course I mean for most of the history of Medical Science in the west and the past couple of decades we're starting to say there's a connection we're asserting out certain Pathways uh you know the neuropeptides systems that sort of thing but if the holographic model is correct there are so many interconnections between the brain and the body there ceases to be

a division so it becomes you almost a moot point to say what is the pathway how is the brain connected to the body because there's no difference just like there's no difference between those two electrodes well and and to take it a step further is you do one might say there's no solid clear-cut distinction between ourselves and the rest of the whole universe I mean this has profound implications for Spiritual experiences of which you've had quite a number and perhaps in the time remaining we should touch on more of those uh yeah very much so

I as I said I've always been very interested in signs but I also grew up in a very with a lot of very unusual experiences not the least of which is that I grew up in a house or the Poltergeist haunting so I had all kinds of examples of psychokinesis of objects moving about on their own when I was growing up and I it really was a strange uh in the sense that for me it was normal and I had to learn that it was abnormal and rather pain painful learning and as I grew up

and my friends would find it very strange that these things would occur and one of the things that boehm says because boom addresses the topic of psychokinesis is again we don't you know we may be mistaken to try to approach psychokinesis by saying what energy is leaving the brain to move the object because well as balm says there's no division it's like Kinesis means mind over matter right moving the objects was just the power of thought alone that we are as connected to that object as as borderless we're Continuum with the object as the patterns

in a carpet so for us to move the object maybe vom says just an act of resonance of realizing that there's no division between it and can we talk for a moment about the issue of life after death or spiritual experiences of other realities yeah that's one of the areas you had mentioned earlier that one of the exciting things about the holographic idea is that people have taken this and explored all different Realms um you know that some have used it to say this is how acupuncture works because it turns out that they're little micro

acupuncture systems where you can find the entire body in the acupuncture points of the ear recapitulated right in the area right so we've talked about the placebo effect uh some have said that the holographic idea applies to near-death experiences one of these individuals is Kenneth ring who is at the University of Connecticut studies near-death experiences and it's interesting because in report after report of people who have been declared clinically dead you know go to some apparent other level of reality and then come back they refer to this other level of reality with terms like frequency

and energy and even hologram that it's a plastic a more plastic level of reality where thought seems to create things instantly there are instances of people having near-death experiences where they think they're hungry and instantly food appears or perhaps an even better example and people find themselves out of their body there are cases where people look down and see that they're in a naked body and they go oh my gosh I'm naked instantly they have clothing on now we don't assume that clothing has a soul you know that has a spirit that survives so somehow

it appears that the mind can sort of pull out of this ocean frequency a hologram of clothing and this is what Ken ring says is that we're entering deeper into the Hologram when we have near-death experiences when we when we leave our bodies so there's so many different areas that have kind of been at the the fringes of our understanding that we can now begin to look at with with new eyes Michael Talbot it's been a pleasure to to have you with me and for those of you watching you may be interested in knowing that

this discussion will be part of a thinking aloud inner work videotape available along with an additional hour of discussion going deeper into these questions with Michael Talbot Michael thanks so much for being with me my pleasure Jeffrey and thank you for being with us [Music] thank you foreign this is Jeffrey mishlove back again with Michael Talbot Michael now might be a good opportunity to talk in Greater depth about some of your own personal experiences I think maybe building on what you have discussed earlier regarding your childhood experiences with poltergeists and let's discuss for you personally

how the holographic model has helped you to understand these things okay well it's interesting I people I was asked recently when did you really start writing the holographic universe and I started writing it years before I heard of the holographic model because the model of reality that's in the book that is implied by the holographic idea is the model of reality that I had arrived at because of my experiences I'd had a lot of of first-hand encounters with the plasticity of reality a recent one is a good example of just how extraordinary some of the

these plastic events have been I have a little Jade Buddha on my desk that my mother gave me and it is set in gold and she came to visit and I think it's significant that this was a time in my life I was going through a rather rough period And basically in need of having some reassurance that Miracles are possible in the universe and when she saw the Jade Buddha sitting on my desk she said oh I remember giving you this and she picked it up and we stood I stood by her as we watched

it and as we looked down at the Buddha there was a little explosion of red light and a sphere of red light expanded out from the Buddha and after it was gone a red stone had appeared in the Buddhist head and I don't know if it was a ruby or a rhinestone I've been kind of afraid to have it tested I don't know I would respond if it had been a miraculous rhinestone appearance but um my mother sort of who's always been kind of like Gladys Kravitz on Bewitched when it comes to these things kind

of giggled nervously and said Gee I don't remember that stone being in the Buddhist head before and I said but Mom didn't you just notice something really amazing and she said well looked like a there was an explosion of red light and a sphere of red light expanded away from the Buddha and um I said well yeah that's what I saw and she said well that can't be that can't be and my sister was visiting and it actually worn the Buddha on a pendant and so I said well that's she she had told me that

my sister Warner and I said well let's call her in and see if she remembers it being there because even Ivory experienced these things you still have this sort of gnawing skepticism go gosh this can't be can reality really be this plastic and I so I said to my mother now don't tell her that the stone materialized that's in front of our eyes right right let's see if she just notices it on her own and my mother bless her heart when when my sister comes in she goes okay okay I won't tell her but the

moment she came in the door she goes Pam the stone just appeared out of nowhere and this boot his head so we didn't have you know a sort of straight scientific approach to it but that's just one example there have been many I talked about the Poltergeist I I grew up having all sorts of precognitive visions of the future which at a very early age taught me that time wasn't as linear as as we thought and uh things that that we don't even have sort of scientific pigeonholes to put in like a UFO encounter that

encounters with occasionally with with beings that appear to be Spirits I'm not quite sure what they are but but beings that aren't uh physical beings and uh things that that were just part of the natural warp and weft of my life have always been and as I say it really came as a shock to me to discover that other people didn't know reality was plastic and that's why the holographic idea excited me so well now let's talk about it a little more because I think conventionally people who have these experiences search in our culture for

an explanation and explanations are not readily forthcoming from mainstream institutions or you could buy into a religious Viewpoint and think of Angels or you might go to Folklore and talk about the little people or you might draw on theosophy or occult Traditions but what what added insights do you get out of viewing these things in terms of a holographic model that you don't get from some of these other perspectives well there are two implications or two added insights one is that you know the the science that we all learned in high school science class does

not allow us to understand these things the holographic idea is really the first sort of scientifically couched idea that says here's how these things might be possible but there's another I kind of think an even more profound implication of the holographic idea and that this gets back into this notion that bones says that if everything is a Continuum and infinitely interconnected all of our ideas all the words we use to describe the world are artificial or sort of just come out of our own belief systems and not and don't exist out there and that's something

that's had a deep effect on my thinking because it means when I've had these experiences I don't jump as I said that appear to be Spirits I say this because I've had for example had a few years back had an encounter with the spirits of several wolves that appeared that I could see through their bodies I mean or several wolves appeared in my apartment I could see through them they were there for about 10 minutes and this this was an experience that I might easily go well these are ghosts these are power animals these are

demons but I I hold my my judgment open I don't I don't know what they are but I know that these things are possible I think it's important not to jump to conclusions because we may miss the larger picture most people might think I'm going crazy uh well I don't anymore I mean I never seriously thought I was going crazy because I'm very emotionally healthy mentally healthy and these things have never have always been positive in my life have always assisted me and I've always been a good thing helped me survive and those people who

don't know I there were many years when I didn't tell people I had these experiences and no one thought I was crazy and you know they might have had I told them the experiences but the rest of my life has always been you know I'm a very sort of ordinary person except for those things and I think you know that craziness is if you have an experience of an of a non-ordinary reality that's not evidence of craziness craziness is if you have some sort of pathological problem something that's that's destructive to your health or well-being

and I've never had that but I think it might be a bit glossing over from what you you've told me already Michael just to say that say your Poltergeist experiences were 100 positive uh well that's true because nothing I mean again we're putting our own intellectual pigeon holes over it I there were negative aspects of the Poltergeist could you would you mind telling the whole story sure um this the Poltergeist I always thought the Poltergeist started when I was five years old and it started raining gravel down on the roof of my family's home at

night and at the time we didn't think this was paranormal no one knew what was going on we lived I grew up in Michigan we lived in a very rural area in the midst of the woods my father would go out with a shotgun because he thought someone must be doing it and he could never find any evidence that someone was doing it he shoot the gun off into the into the air and the morning he'd go up and sweep several shovelfuls of gravel off the roof and and then things became very definitely paranormal when

this whatever this manifestation was went into the house it would one of its favorite things to do was to throw the vacuum cleaner around you didn't always see it most often you didn't my mother if she were vacuuming and turned the vacuum cleaner off and left it one part of the room and would leave the room you'd hear it clash and go back to the room and be in the opposite side of the room uh occasionally you would see things I'd uh saw in one occasion of glass all of a sudden just came swooping through

the room from no apparent uh you know Source the windows were closed there was no one there who could have thrown it the Poltergeist was also fought of throwing strangely enough pieces of drift glass and broken beer bottles or pop bottles they find worn smooth on the beach and once in my New York apartment because the Poltergeist followed me wherever I moved until I was in my early 20s I saw actually saw one of these things materialized I was just sort of daydreaming looking up near the ceiling and all of a sudden out of nowhere

this this strange little brown thing appeared and I as I looked at it came zooming down at me hit me in the chest dropped to the Florida was one of these pieces of glass and so these were um you know extraordinary things and and but at the same time I and my family became so accustomed to them I have two sisters that we'd be playing because another thing the Poltergeist would do was Stomp all over stomp up the stairs down the stairs to the room do your bang bang bang bang bang and if we were

playing it got so if we heard something stop up the stairs and glanced over the stairs and there were nothing there we'd just go back to playing it was so mundane a part of our existence and um you said they did have negative aspects you know it wasn't all positive that's true because one of the things that I discovered and has caused me to believe that the Poltergeist was an unconscious psychic projection of mine is that it was always colored by my moods most of the time I was in a good mood and it was

mischievous would do silly things like one morning I woke up with dried spaghetti noodles all over my chest and no explanation I lived alone and no unless a burglar broken boils some noodles you know and threw them on my chest I don't know where they came from and I have no history of sleepwalking or anything like that another uh instance it took all of my socks draped them over the plants in the in my house silly things like that but if I were in a bad mood if I were going through some sort of rough

time in my life the Poltergeist became nasty and there were a few occasions not many were stigmata-like bites would appear in my hands a couple of times needles or metal objects that were halfway between nail and needle would appear out of nowhere to zoom into my flesh so this only happened twice and things like that so you could screw those as negative but on the other hand I view them as positive because I learned so much from them well I I think it's important to mention this because you know in a lot of the folklore

these kinds of manifestations are associated with the Demonic and I think by using the lens of a holographic model you're able to see it in a different light that's true and it's important to note that and one of the things that I've learned from it is when these negative things were happening there were occasions even though I'd had lengthy experience of this Poltergeist that I'd start to think oh my gosh maybe I'm being demonically attacked when I believe that it started to manifest even more as a demonic attack but when I would sort of come

to my senses and go no I know that this is I can see the emotion reason that this is is manifesting in this way and go okay I'm going to stop this I'm going to you know have a positive frame of mind all the negative stuff would stop I always had control but if I relinquish that control and allowed my beliefs to go into some interpretation go it's a demon it's of this it's that then it would get me and it was another instance uh where I when I slipped in my New York apartment where

I was um playing piano at night uh I had the lights off I was playing in the dark and I live on the ground floor and the piano is situated so that the back of the piano is toward a window and as I was sitting there playing away all of a sudden there was an intense burst of light in my face it was like a flash bulb went off right in my face and my first just sort of visceral reaction to it was oh my gosh a truck is driving it's come off the road and

is driving through my window so I literally threw myself over the piano thinking that I'm about to be killed by this this truck or whatever and after I sort of regained my you know my senses and stood up I looked back at the window there was no sign of what had caused this light I thought well that is strange and I turned back around and as I looked in the room it was what looked like a luminous soap bubble about three feet in diameter hovering in the air and it sounds strange but it terrified me

because people go What's So Scary About aluminous soap bubble but it was so unexpected and yet so real I immediately I started moving my eyes from side to side to see if it was an after image on my retina I started blinking to see if it would go away it was as real as the tables and the chairs man there was a distinct sort of feeling of Evil coming from it and I started to run out of the room and then I caught myself and I thought because I'm basically just an extremely curious person by

Nature I thought if I run out of the room I'm always going to wonder what this thing was and what would have happened had I stayed so I really summoned my courage and I stopped and I addressed it I said I want you to know you're just scared the Daylights out of me but I'm I want to know why you're here what you are and when I said this this bubble which is hovering in the air backed up and somehow I knew that the fact that it backed up that it had wanted to scare me

and it had backed up now this bubble appearing had been uh pressagged by a number of very negative Poltergeist phenomena the couple of the bytes that occur at that time in this I didn't know what was going on the bubble after it was only there for maybe a minute or two but it seemed like an eternity at the time then the bubble uh left the room hit a door and sort of burst and sparkles and was gone and but distinctly negative was my I mean I knew it was a negative presence a couple of days

later a friend called me and I had not told her about the experience or anything and she said Michael I have a letter that I think you should read and it turned out I just moved to New York from Michigan I'd attended Michigan State University and there was a group of people there that were really only acquaintances of mine they weren't that important in my life but they were into black magic and somehow they had fancied which was totally their fantasy not not mine that I was some sort of magician and that they had that

I was attacking them and so they were doing group meditations and casting spell to get me counter magic right and I I had not even thought of these people but what that taught me is that I realized that because I still think I was in in part feeding this phenomena with my own psychic energy is that I was not shielding myself because what happened when I learned this I while I was going on I was so interested I allowed it to happen because I wanted to see where it was going I wondered what the bubble

was I didn't say okay get out of my reality but as soon as I found out they were what they were doing I said okay all of this stops now and just through an act of will he said this will not go this direction and as soon as I I put forth that active will all of these things the the negativity ceased and the Poltergeist resumed it's it's harmless aspect and what that taught me is that you know I'm sometimes asked do you think people can cast bells or can exert an outward influence to you

and I think that our will is always it's what our will determines but you also have to be conscious you have to sort of Shield yourself and I have learned that I have to believe have developed a strong belief that I'm protected so that my unconscious doesn't believe that I'm not protected and allow these things to occur and when you do that you are protected so your sense is that these various events are taking place at another level of reality that's related to the holographic model I I do I think that they're not just hallucinations

and I say that because I've had equally extraordinary experiences where there've been other people present seeing the same thing but what's interesting is again you know it's the holographic model says there's no division between the brain our thoughts in the world out there is that they always have some sort of psychological correlation with what's going on in my life I can look at them and I can go the reason this is negative is because these people were casting spells and there have been event after event after event or the reason the Poltergeist is negative is

because I'm going through a bad period emotionally and I've so I've discovered that they are psychological exteriorizations that become real and I say that because as I said I don't believe they're hallucination because other people have witnessed them with me and the only explanation in my mind is that our thoughts do project into reality on occasion do bleed through from the subject to the objective now I want to explore with you more carefully the nature of the Poltergeist entities themselves in these other realities and I think a good way to approach that would be to

step back for a minute and talk a little bit about what is life what constitutes a living being well again we're getting into this area of conceptual pigeon holes putting over you know on the universe right and it's interesting in another book of mine I addressed this issue at some link beyond the quantum because if you try if you think about it how can you define life you know there's every time anyone has tried to come up with a definition well life reproduces itself it uses oxygen whatever your definition is you can always find something

that doesn't seem to be alive that fulfills those criteria my sixth grade science class my teacher gave a list of things that that categories or qualities that she said this typifies a living thing and it occurred to me that fire fulfilled all those qualities and I said you know excuse me does that mean fire is alive she said well no obviously not and I said well how does this you know mesh with your definition and this was addressed a few years back um in a book called life beyond Earth by a physicist name Gerald Feinberg

and a biochemist named Robert Shapiro where they try to come up with a definition of life and in a strange kind of way they arrived at a definition that in my mind says that everything is alive they don't quite interpret it that way but they said life is the more ordered a phenomena is the more that you can assume it's alive but again order how do we recognize order order something that we recognize with our heads and in quantum physics there's like bone for example says that that electrons appear to be alive and he's not

alone there are a number of physicists who think that every portion of the universe is live is alive and I think I've come to believe that every small fragment of the universe possesses some life that it is a manifestation of life of of some kind of Consciousness not not a human consciousness but some kind of Consciousness and you can't draw a distinct border between what is alive and what is not I might just mention parenthetically that one of the best works I'm aware of in this regard is Arthur Young's book The reflexive Universe in which

he discusses the amazing uh qualities of a photon that that seem to exhibit right particles seem to make decisions in unique ways you know you can shoot an electron at a barrier if you throw a pebble at a window it I you know it either hits the window and bounces off or it hits the window and breaks through you shoot an electron in a barrier can do all kinds of thing it can hit bounce off it can stop just before the window dematerialize the materials on the other side it can stop just before the window

and reverse its direction and the these you cannot take any electron and predict what it will do just like you cannot take any human being and with absolute certainly predict what it will do which is you know there's a sort of uncertainty principle in life and I think it's this Quantum indeterminacy that that that everything possesses living and what we formally call non-living so as these holographic patterns these interference patterns come together they form like standing waves in a sense and these holographic standing waves can manifest in in different ways I mean your experiences are

quite unusual I doubt if many viewers will have the kinds of experiences that you have and yet I think they're very important for us all to know about because they they represent things that are kind of on the fringes of our own experience right in different ways and what you're suggesting is is that there's a kind of I I don't know the right word and of course you've pointed out the problems with words but a quasi life-like quality to these poltergeists that it doesn't quite fit you know the old occult models like I don't know

well no they represent you Carl Jung said that our our complexes you know thing that the sort of belief systems or the agendas that manifest in our Consciousness are quasi-independent that they take on a life of their own and yet they're a projection of our Consciousness and not a projection but a manifestation where Consciousness and to me the Poltergeist was like a complex it was like one of these semi-autonomous things but it wasn't only inside my psyche any longer it manifested it exteriorized and I think you know you look there's so many phenomena like this

that we try to interpreted as objective the UFO phenomena is a classic example where it just doesn't seem to fit a purely objective explanation they they're you know they're thousands and thousands of UFO experiences every year many of them take a very absurd form and it just doesn't seem possible that we could be visited by thousands and thousands of extraterrestrials behaving so absurdly all the time and yet the evidence is very substantive that there's something going on and I'm not the first many people have looked at this and said gosh this seems to be a

psychological quality of these things and yet they seem to be real and I believe I've coined the term I'm an objective that the universe is all omnitive it's neither subjective nor objective that that everything possesses qualities that we associate with both and the UFO phenomena if you look at it it can almost I believe can be interpreted like a dream that that their metaphors and symbols that it speaks in the language what Eric Fromm called The Forgotten language the language of the psyche this symbolic language of the dreams and in fact all of the mystical

experiences I've had instead of looking for them and going this is an angel this is a ghost this is a spirit I look at them I go this is real and other people have seen it but what is it psychological meaning what is it meant to teach me how is it a projection of my Consciousness my psyche and perhaps the psyche of those who've witnessed it with me let's go into more detail and more depth about your own personal encounter with this Poltergeist how you came to understand what it really was for you well you

know I don't know how I came to understand I always just sort of knew it was a projection of mine I mean when I was a very small child I didn't because you don't have the intellectual Savvy of an adult but As I Grew Older it was just so obvious to me that it was such a direct reflection of my interior landscape of my what was going on in my psyche that I I automatically assumed it was and it came as a shock to me when I started reading about Poltergeist that people didn't just accept

that matter of factly that of course it is what are the standard explanations of this projection but there's still people say maybe it's a spirit maybe it's this maybe it's that and so there was I don't have a specific point in time where I went aha this is the event that teaches me I always just kind of understood it when you developed some kind of a relationship with it as time went on I did develop a relationship with it and I guess you know the one thing that did help me understand it in those terms

was a an experiment conducted by the parapsychologist ERG Owen where he and a group of people got together and they decided to create they to hold seances but instead of conjuring up a ghost they decided to create a ghost so they named him Philip and to to make sure that they were creating this ghost what they did is they constructed an artificial history for Philip but one that didn't that contained historical inaccuracies like they said he was a uh lived in on the Middle Ages but the king at the time that that he lived was

not the king that actually lived in those times it was a king that had died fictional ghost a fictional ghost yes and they held the Sans and they're two there's another interesting thing in this is that they start they approached it first by being very mystical and very solemn and sitting around a table and holding a Sands in that way nothing happened and then they then they read uh about the research performed by earlier an early investigator that said the Victorian seances were always very boisterous they drank they laughed they sang so that's they started

holding Sans is where they laughed and they drank and they sang and boom Phillips started manifest would start to answer through table wrappings and it became clear that Philip was a projection of the group in the sense that like Philip for example enjoyed certain songs and he's happened in enjoy certain songs that the group enjoys singing however if one member of the group wasn't there that night Phillips might drop one of his favorite songs and have no knowledge of it so it seemed that that member was contributing that favorite song on the other hand Philip

was quasi-independent because he made up some things on his own that didn't that no one was consciously adding to his history one of the things they said is that he had left his wife and fall in love with a bar maid and Philip threw this table wrapping communication they said oh by the way I never loved her I just I just you know went away with her but I never loved her and he came up with that no member of the group had fabricated that aspect of Philip and if you think about it this is

this too is a quality of the psyche I I learned this once when I was um I used to have a problem where I would nervously pull out the hairs in my beard and I thought okay I've got to stop this and so just do an active will I I you know went cold turkey on this habit as one has to do with habits and I was sitting and typing at my word processor one day and all of a sudden I realized that I was typing with one hand and I thought why am I typing

with one hand I looked down in my other hand was sneaking up to pull a beard hair out I was a part of my psyche was trying to fool myself and pull this out so it became quasi-independent that habit was part of me but what was I was on a mess you created and then it developed you know it develops its own agenda and let me speculate a little bit because throughout this entire program I've had this urge to pull something out of my eye and I've been look I looked in the mirror earlier and

I realized there are no hairs there's nothing tickling me I thought there was and yet I kept telling it like that that could be an example of some kind of a holographic standing wave or right well for genetic field or and anyone who's meditated knows that you know when you try to quiet your mind you're assailed by one thought after another and they seem to assail you not you bring them in they have their own independence their own agenda and when I look at my interior landscape every emotion every desire every feeling I have I

recognize is a part of me but has its own inner impetus as self-organizing becomes semi-autonomous and swarms in my head and I I really come to think of myself not as I but as we and you know that each of us is a just a plethora of different consciousnesses thousands perhaps and you know uncuttable consciousnesses that our psyche is as rich with these entities which are part of us they're they're not separate from us but they also have their own agenda but our psyches is Rich with these things as as the Amazon rainforest is Rich

with life form one of the interesting points that you made in an earlier discussion is that many of these phenomena although they're quite real and they have an autonomous uh reality after we ourselves have created them but they might not necessarily be meaningful uh they might be striking in a sense right lead nowhere right well I think synchronicity is to fall in that category they're synchronicities are meaningful coincidences things that seem to be just coincidence but occasionally are incredibly meaningful sometimes they're not I had a series of synchronicities um uh where uh one morning I

was doing push-ups and I had the TV on there was a game show and I wasn't consciously watching the game show and all of a sudden as I'm doing push-ups I realized that I answered one of the questions without consciously focusing on what the gamers was about and I said who was Buffalo Bill and it was Jeopardy in the game show the question been you know William Cody Buffalo Bill's other name and uh I didn't think anything of it and they later that day a friend called me up and he said you know if anyone

knows the answer this question maybe you do but we're John we're having an argument here and my friend's an actor and he said were John Barrymore's dying words aren't you the illegitimate son of Buffalo Bill to a stage hand that means he's collapsed and I thought about it I thought well there's Buffalo billion but it didn't really sink in too much because it was just the second time it happened later later that day when the mail came I got a Smithsonian Magazine and I opened it up in the article I opened it up to was

Buffalo Bill is alive and he's coming back and so there was boom boom boom Buffalo Bill three times in a row now occasionally I have synchronicities three times in a row or something like that that I look at I go oh this is what this is meant to teach me but in this particular instance I I thought this is a kind of little holographic dust storm that's gathered that doesn't have Cosmic significance and I really sort of frown on people that every event in their life they go this is Meaningful I've got it what is

God telling me because the chair fell here what sometimes they're meaningful sometimes they have profound meaning but sometimes they're just these little little self-organized exteriorization is the psyche that are spinning outside of yourself like a dust storm and don't necessarily have meaning and I guess to make that distinction to be able to discern between them uh comes from understanding or having a sensitivity to an appreciation for the holographic landscape around us well to understand how they can manifest definitely and equally understanding how you know the language of the psyche which we don't do you know

so we don't even pay much attention to our dreams and yet we have this enormous you know this enormous Universe inside ourselves that's constantly giving us lessons and messages and no I I interviewed uh this psychiatrist Montague Allman for this book and he he said something which I knew but he articulated in a way that really sort of drove the meeting home for me and he said that you know that he he has lots of patience he said it doesn't matter who the patient is in the waking State he can have a man who's a

total jerk but in his dreams there's a wisdom system that's Way Beyond him that his dreams are constantly trying to teach him not to be a jerk or not to be selfish or not to be greed or whatever I thought this is true our dreams have this this wisdom and yet most human beings don't pay enough attention to dreams to even remember them on a regular basis they they let them in the you know exist in this foggy interior world and they don't access it I think it's a talmud that's where it says an uninterpreted

dream is like a letter left unopened and I believe that I think we have to do that as well I'd like to push the boundaries even further now Michael and I I know that you've had personally some UFO types of experiences very much related to the sorts of things that uh Whitley strieber reports and and I want wonder if you wouldn't mind uh narrating for us what happened to you and how you've come to view these experiences yeah I don't mind at all and and if they were actually started with something that doesn't seem to

be a UFO experience but when I was three years old uh I have a memory in my head and I don't know where it began or where it ended but it's absolutely Vivid to this day uh this woman I call her a woman but I don't know it might just have been an androgynous being it's a figure with long white hair wearing a long white robe taking me out of my bed or walking me through the woods and I was terrified because I was dark and I didn't know who this person was the only way

that I could deal with it was to sort of tell myself this has got to be my mother even though my mother is to not fit the physical description of my mother uh we got to the shore of a lake and this this entity that said to me are you afraid Michael and I said yes I'm very afraid and said then hold your hand Palm up or toward the moon I did that and said now close your hand very slowly and as I did that I felt a softness in my hand a palpable softness like

when you hold your hand outside a car window and feel the wind but there was no wind blowing through my hand and this this being said do you feel that and I said yes and she said then or it said or he said then I want you to remember Michael whatever happened to your life don't ever be afraid because for you the darkness is soft and it was a very comforting message and then a couple of years later I I said it I told my mother about it and she didn't quite know what you know

it's a no no being took you out or whatever and you know again when you're a child you don't process these things intellectually you just accept the world in a sort of magical way how old would you say you were I think it was about three when when this occurred and when I was five my father and a friend saw a UFO come down in the woods near where my my family's house was and they have it was then obscured by the trees but out of the trees came two figures first a man in a

black business suit carrying an attached a case which was completely absurd and at the time we did not know that this is a common Motif in UFO lore that in UFO experiences they call the Men in Black they of course they don't make sense of their extraterrestrials unless they're like you know extraterrestrial Amway salesmen or whatever but uh so they they were just you know completely non-plussed by this experience then out of the woods came this figure with long white hair and a long white robe and the Man in the business suit vanished walked off

into the thicket and was gone but the figure in the long one with the long white hair and the long white robe stopped in a cornfield and stood there my father and his friend became very frightened grow back as well my mother myself and my father's friend's wife were camping out less than a mile from where this had occurred they came back and they got us in the car and they said this amazing thing happened they told us a story drove us up and I when I looked at this being I thought oh it's her

it's like always called the woman a white it's the woman in white and but again as a child you don't necessarily even mention these things I didn't say oh by the way that's her to my parents my father wanted to go see this this being talked to it and say what are you why are you here my mother said no no no and and finally we watch it for about 10 minutes and finally drove away not not knowing quite what to do since everyone was too afraid to approach it the next day my father went

back with a neighbor who taught astronomy at the local Grand Rapids junior college and they looked for the landing side of this thing that had come out which looked like a green ball of light and came zooming out of the air they couldn't find the landing site but they did find the footprints of this being in this white robe and they were looked like little skis they're pointed in very narrow and they went back into the woods they took photographs of the footprints my father's hand next to him for size comparison unfortunately the photographs have

been misplaced but there are lots of people had seen them at the time and uh that experience after that occurred is when the Poltergeist phenomena manifested in the house and it's become no now in UFO phenomena the Poltergeist hauntings often follow UFO sightings and this isn't further Evidence UFOs aren't just a purely objective phenomena they seem to blow some sort of psychic doorway open and people when strange things start happening and with me I believe it blew some sort of gasket open that allowed the psychokinetic essence or energy to come out and um when I

look at this and try to interpret it in terms of as I say extraterrestrials it just doesn't make sense uh I believe that I don't quite know what it is but I believe the universe has many many levels of reality I think UFOs are non-physical I definitely think that we are not necessarily meant to interpret them at face value and when you say non-physical uh are you implying that they're not part of this holographic reality either they're a different channel on the holographic television set a different Channel than our physical universe and Zion is what

I believe and I think I think they're uncountable channels on the holographic TV and probably as many civilizations and and such a richness of Life on those levels as there is on our own planet on our own Universe probably and that they're probably consciousnesses and civilizations that are Advanced enough to bleed through but maybe some of these things also uh we don't you know there may be they may be like just at the level of of wildlife you know in their mentality but on another level of reality they may not be sophisticated but they may

have the ability to sort of manifest in a form that that fools us and actually what I think is going on is that when you encounter something there's a truly of another reality you don't you can't your perceptions and trying to pull it out of the this blur of energy and make it into a hologram don't quite know know how to put it into form and so I think that the reason there are many psychological motifs and UFO experiences is because there's something going on but the surface appearance is a product in the person's own

psyche in other words a lot of what's going on in these various holographic realities are like ink blocks right right there they can be interpreted like dreams as well that they have psychological symbols in them but they're also something real there because UFOs can be tracked on radar they leave circles you know on the ground they leave traces of physical evidence and so I think a reminder there's a story I don't know if it's apocryphal I've never really been able to track it down it's been attributed Darwin Magellan but something to the sense that that

what I think if you use Magellan that when Magellan first went ashore in Tierra del Fuego that the natives saw that he came ashore in robots but he left his ship anchored out in the harbor and um they said well how did you get here and he said in that ship and they couldn't see the ship yes now we certainly know that there's evidence of this you know there there are tribes in the Gold Coast of Africa that can't see photographs or can't see movies and that that there's sometimes times you know that there seems

to be our cultural upbringing imprints in us what we can perceive that sometimes we literally can't perceive something because we don't have the vocabulary the cultural and perceptual vocabulary to see it I think UFOs fall into that category in a very extreme way that they are so alien to our ordinary perception that our brain really pulls a deep psychic back psychological baggage out of our out of our psyches to put them to hammer them into some form and when we look at them and read them at face value like that their abductions or whatever I

think that we're looking at our own unconscious interpretation of the phenomena and that we have to go deeper we have to see beyond our own psychological baggage to truly begin to recognize and understand what's going on well it would seem to me that it's true that we've been blinded by our our culture we're very much like uh the the people in as described in Plato's Cave who can only see the Shadows on the wall and not the light but yet I feel feel that something's happening there is a movement in the culture the very fact

that you can take a rather respectable scientific concept like the holographic model of the brain and the holographic model in physics and in C uh and that it can be without a lot of stretching used to incorporate many of these very things in in premium for one acknowledges uh that as well suggests that right or wrong the model is is helping us to open our eyes to them I think so yeah it's interesting there's a sort of a bit of a movement afoot to begin to look at these things you know because ever it's kind

of the story of the blind man and the Elephant where they go up one touches the trunk one touches the leg and says well this animal's like a snake no this animal's like a tree because they're not seeing the whole picture and there are various uh researchers for example Ken ring that who I mentioned earlier the near-death experience researcher who said look let's look at UFO experiences let's look at shamanistic experiences and let's look at near-death experiences and look at their similarities maybe they're all portions of some proverbial elephant that we're missing and I think

he's right I think that they're all experiences with the other channels on the holographic TV set and when we interpret them at face value their extraterrestrials come here to abduct us and perform genetic research whatever we're we're being like the blind man and the elephant and we've got to look at the larger picture yeah now have you in your adult life have further UFO experiences as a follow-up well I have had him as an adult I had a period when I was in college where I was driving with a friend and uh we saw a

UFO and got out of our car we were going from uh East Lansing Michigan to Saugatuck which I believe was something like a two hour drive I'm not quite sure but we knew how long the drive was supposed to take we got out of our car to watch this UFO and we watched it for what we thought was about five minutes and we made no other stops and when we arrived uh at our destination all of our friends said where have you been you're hours late and this was the first time that we looked at

our watches and realized that we had this proverbial missing time that we lost time now I've had people try to hypnotize me and unfortunately I I have not gone under to be able to access what occurred in that missing time but I I believe that you know something you know I had some encounter with this uh non-ordinary reality that we're in this particular instance labeling UFO but as I say is part just the tip of the iceberg if something vested yeah now you mentioned the pieces of the puzzle earlier and one piece that we haven't

touched on I'd like to bring in now is relates to past law times you've written a book your past lives on on this very topic do you see it relating oh I do very much so I think I think we we human beings know so little about the universe and I had a another personal experience that I had was when I was a very small child I remembered my past lives fragments of them I I did not know the word reincarnation I was very confused but the the memories in my my realization that I lived

before were so vivid that I wouldn't call my parents mom and dad I didn't understand why these two kindly people were saying they were my parents because I knew I'd had other parents I thought where am I why am I here and I remembered different periods of history that I again I didn't know what periods they were it was a visual memory and it was very confusing for me and I would always manifest all these strange habits I drank incredibly strong black tea like at the age of six I was brewing myself tea whenever I

could get away with it without my parents finding out I sat cross-legged on the floor I would never sit in Furniture it took took years to train me to sit in chairs and lots of things I remembered various ways that I died I would ask my mother I say would you remember when I drowned well how why did I drown she didn't know what I was talking about whether they grew older and learned about the concept of reincarnation I realized that I had all these experiences I want to very quickly say I don't remember being

any Pharaoh you know anyone famous anything like that I think there's unfortunately there's a lot of nonsense associated with reincarnation and such is the idea why does everybody think they were Cleopatra right but I don't think I think people you know if you have eight people who think they're Cleopatra you don't have evidence of reincarnation but of something a bit more frivolous and um but the research doesn't show that everybody thinks they were somebody no no quite the contrary there's a past life uh researcher psychologist named Helen Wambach who's deceased now but she regressed large

groups of people uh hundreds and sent them back to various past lives and what you would do is you would pick a time period for example the 1850s 60s and say what were you alive then and if so where were you figuring that if people were fantasizing even an unconscious level that we're able to associate that time period with the Civil War and she would come up with a lot of Civil War past life she didn't and and in fact in all these literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of examples of past lives she had

no one who remembered being anyone famous she also had things that seemed to very much mesh with historical reality only 10 percent of the past lives that heard subjects had lived were lived as aristocratic lies or in lives of luxury the other 90 were grueling as peasants as laborers you know eeking out you know 100 gatherers that sort of thing and uh some very interesting historical uh pieces of information came out like she'd started to discover that if at various time periods people described Forks as having none like at one point people said Forks had

two prongs then they had three then they had four and this is a very obscure historical fact that that is the the progression of the fort so there were things like that but as I say no no famous people and it did seem to to reflect historical reality not fantasy because who would fantasize being a peasant or a laborer you know we're now we've talked about past lives we talked about Poltergeist we've talked about UFOs and we've talked about the holographic model in science how do you integrate things well I I think they're all part

of this the same reality that we live in a a spiritual universe that I I very much believe that our soul Lives Many Many Lives and goes through these things and I think at this point in our development that we've been that we have manifested in the physical because we don't have a Consciousness that's developed enough to deal with reality with its full Grandeur and plasticity that for us it would be very frightening if there weren't solid rules if everything started to slip and slide but I think as your soul goes along it starts to

learn to deal with more than this reality with other levels on the holographic television set and when you start to open those doorways that's when reality the plasticity of reality starts to seep in but then you go through a sort of shamanistic rite of passage because you've got to go through most people go put an interpretation on they go oh this is an angel or this is you know a demon or a UFO Abduction and if you do that you're missing the basic lesson of shamanism which is that everything that you experience in the non-ordinary

reality of the shaman has psychological meaning for you that that you were entering a level of reality that responds so directly to your thoughts that your every thought helps what manifest and in that instance you can't ask what is there but why if I created what is there and I think that's the lesson that our souls are learning as we evolve in other words one might say that these various so-called paranormal experiences are what my friend and Mentor Arthur Young would call oh wow kinds of experiences uh they serve another purpose and it's not an

obvious uh purpose necessarily but perhaps ultimately it's to push us somehow into a higher state of consciousness to to force us to try and and understand the deeper meaning I and I agree with that and it's it's they're a natural uh manifestation of the evolution of Consciousness as your soul evolves you start to open up the plastic levels of reality and these things start to enter and that in itself teaches you you know that it may not necessarily be that the universe is saying here I'm giving you this to teach you but you are manifesting

what you have to learn about yourself and just as we you know we manifest moods and beliefs that we have to learn about if we're to deal with them properly these are things that manifest at a very in a very profound and paranormal way but our part are still Rorschach as you said are ink plots of who and what we are as Souls you know you speak in your book The holographic Universe of higher States Of Consciousness or you know The evolutionary force of all of this I wonder if we can go into that uh

you know well I think I as I said I think that we are evolving as consciousnesses as souls and I think that eventually we we we can move on to other levels of reality non-physical levels there are other channels what I've been calling other channels on the cosmic TV set the holographic TV set and I think that to deal with those channels that that we are we're really just infants the human race you know we we tend to think of ourselves as very Advanced but we really like one of the uh metaphors that I use

is we're like babysitting at the control panel of a jumbo jet in a soul is is infinite and has infant capability but for us to learn how to access that those things we we are at the moment babies at the control battles just flipping switches and occasionally causing profound things to trip into our reality but not quite understanding them and certainly not controlling them not seeing that the evidence that the real evidence for example of a synchronicity is that our psyche does has have reverberations in in the world out there and if that's the case

you know how do we begin to really look at how to to manifest things you know not just simple coincidences but positive things in our life and control our thoughts enough that we don't manifest bugaboos and demons and things like that because we are like The Sorcerer's Apprentice we have to learn to deal with this ability and that's why it opens up slowly because before you can deal with it you don't want those gateways below and open and it would seem I think that many of the Great Mystics and and spiritual teachers have offered uh

road maps or or guidelines for entering into these higher states that allow them to integrate all of these these phenomena without getting swept away or getting romantic about them but to see them in a kind of larger perspective yeah I think you're right and and it's interesting to me that the one common thread that goes through all these road maps is that these other levels of reality are reached through the inner Universe through the head you know by going into that inner universe that that's where this the vastness of the true Universe exists and in

our culture we think that what's inside our head is less real than what's out there I believe that what's inside our head is more real than the consensus reality we just haven't accessed the level that shows us how profound and magical that that interior reality is most of us Mystics have and there's even a sense if we push it uh that the very notion of what's inside our head that we would even think in those terms is is a function of maybe that were caught in what the Hindus call Maya the illusion that's created by

by the holograph we we see ourselves as the holographic projections rather than as the source of those projections right well I I in the holographic Universe I say that we're children that have not yet learned a color out without coloring books we can't just freestyle draw and that's why we're locked in this apparently solid substantive reality because for most of us our Consciousness is at a point where if we were thrust into a level of reality where we could instantly manifest as real anything that we thought about we don't control our thoughts and our emotions

enough to manifest only good things we'd start to worry about you know something and manifest that and so for most of us to access those levels of reality would be kind of like being on a very bad LSD trip and that's why we're growing and we and but at a certain point we won't need the comforting borders and and boundaries of Maya of this physical Universe at a certain point we'll learn how to move Beyond well and that sounds like is something of the story that you went through and coming to terms with the Poltergeist

experience yeah in all of my experiences I mean every one of them has taught me uh as I say not only about the universe but more importantly about myself and uh what you know what I have to deal with because I think the most spiritual uh thing a person can do is is you know sometimes people say to me gosh I wish I had your experiences what can I do can I meditate can I say in Mantra and sometimes the best answer is to see a therapist deal with your own baggage because that's that's what

what you have to deal with first you know I learned this in I did it on when I was on book tour I I did a radio interview a new age radio interview in San Francisco where uh the man who was was doing the interview was a substitute host and he didn't know that we had confirmed the interview so he was sitting as the air times approaching Sweating Bullets thinking I might not be there when I arrived he just bit my head off really screened at me and said how how dare you not confirm and

we had confirmed he didn't know that and he said you know get in here and so I went into the control room and he sat down the the light went on and he leaned to the tour of the mic and he said hello and I thought this is just very wrong you know this is not you know this we you cannot be a smiling spiritual person if you've got all this undoubt with baggage and that's that is the most spiritual thing that we can do is to learn to deal with the here and now if

you're an insecure person you deal with your insecurity you don't try to move objects with your head you know with psychokinetically and those are the things because you if you don't deal with those you're not going to be in a very pleasant situation that outer reality that outer that in that holographic reality it's not going to be pleasant for you until you have this inner peace and health in your own psyche well you know what you're suggesting here is something uh I think more profound than just a simple uh platitude or a moral truth what

I think if if I can read into what you're saying it has implications for science it seems that for the scientific Community to be able to come to terms with the many things that we've been talking about and to understand the full realization of uh possible through the holographic model and other comparable models that are being developed now it's going to require a level of personal development on the part of those scientists very much though just won't be able to get it I mean I'm constantly astounded to know reading about some of the the individuals

the men who work in the atomic bomb and they're asked you know well didn't you ever think of the implications they go frankly no that's you know why you know what what has happened to us that we can develop something that that a brilliant mind can develop an atomic bomb without thinking of the implications and that's because we don't look at the larger picture they were just they had their nose to the Grind so so to speak they were so interested in the physics of it they didn't think of what the implications were and clearly

our world is in Desperate Straits because we've done this over and over again we've gone off in One Direction or another with just one value parameter you know without you know like well this will help us get energy but it might destroy the ozone layer or whatever you know we don't put these spiritual values or deal do you become conscious beings before we start wielding these things and and that's you know again that's why we seem to be like infants sitting at the control panel of a double jet we've got to learn about what's inside

to be able to control this control panel before we start flitching and that can switch it isn't just immoralism it seems to be uh directly implied by the notion of a seamless universe that we can't separate our personal growth our our moral growth from our understanding of the world around us we've reached that barrier well Bohm says that we have to understand that the universe is an unbroken hole and that when we don't when we fragment the universe we are leading to our own destruction you know when you look at for example poverty without looking

at education and he applies it to sociological things like this that you have to and we've learned this in the ecosystem you know ecologically you can't say we can do this and it won't affect that everything is infinitely interconnected on every level and every dynamical level of reality and we have to look at the larger picture at the at the infinite interconnection without focusing in on a fragment of this unbroken wholeness and Michael I wonder um we've got about five minutes left if you could kind of synthesize what we've been saying and also talk about

what is an extra Frontier for you and what works I really well what I'd like to do next is I'm working on a book that is the practical application of this holographic idea you know and all of its various phases like talking about the placebo effect and I mentioned the study where thirty percent of people taking Placebo of a new chemotherapy lost their hair because they were told that they might be taking a toxic drug we've got to understand that we have this I call it the infinite self inside us it has enormous capability but

our conscious mind feeds it all kinds of things unwittingly and gives it all kinds of of mistaken directions you know for example I live in New York City and a lot of people say well don't you think the air is killing you well I look at that Placebo study know that these people just that sentence you you know this drug may cause you to lose your hair cause them to lose their hair when they weren't even taking the drug That's The Power of our infant itself we can cut we can cause ourselves to lose our

own hair we can cause ourselves to respond and incredibly negative or incredibly positive ways just by the model of reality we hold inside our head so one has to be very careful like I when people ask me that about air pollution I go well if I believed I were dying I know that my body would respond in kind and I want to write a book that really deals with all these things in all kinds of levels saying here are the practical applications outweighs it you don't have to deal with the very sort of heady space-time

aspects of these things here's the way these things can impact in your everyday life and that you've got to start looking at you know the The Wonder of these things but bring them down to the to the Earthly level so to speak I'm kind of kind of puzzled by that because you use the term the infinite self and it almost seems to me there's a little catch in there like if you believe you're going to die from air pollution or now we have all these messages on cigarettes and on alcohol you know drink this and

you'll get birth defects right or other problems and we think we're doing a good thing and and it suggests that we might want to re-examine some of that but if we think in terms of the infant itself maybe that's maybe it's okay to learn the hard way well it's it's interesting and I don't know it's a very very delicate issue because I'm for example I'm not saying throughout nutritional knowledge but I now know that like when I I try to eat a healthy diet but if I eat a candy bar I no longer tell myself

this is killing me I bless everything that goes into my body and I say this will only make me better even though I sort of Another Part Of Me knows that I don't want to eat nothing but candy bars but I tell myself that everything that happens to me is as if is affecting me in a positive way not a negative way because I know that the value value of this of of doing this and the analogy that I use there's a the Anthropologist Gregory Basin was a New Guinea where they have these one of

the use for a currency these huge Stone coins and so whenever a major financial transaction would take place I'd have to move with one of these amazingly heavy Stone clients from one Community to another during one of these events one of these Stone coins sank to the bottom of the ocean and the fellow was shipping it to another fellow said well everyone knows where it is it's there down at the bottom of the ocean you it belongs to you now no one's going to get it the guy thought about it he said okay it's my

stone coin now and when he made a financial transaction the necessity is Shifting moving the stone coin instead of moving and he said well now it belongs to you everyone knows it's down there at the bottom of the ocean and I think that's what we've got to do with belief systems they they continue to use the same mode of currency but without carrying the weight of the stone coin we've got to use our nutritional knowledge Without Really affecting and impacting the infant itself we've got to carry the stone coin around without the weight yeah that's

that's a very nice analogy and uh also by way of closing I want to just mention what you said a moment ago that you always bless your food because it it seems that that represents an appreciation for for the larger one might say holographic Dimension or spiritual dimension of who we are and what our food is well mystics say that everything is an expression of God and nothing that is an expression of God can hurt you and I think that's the ultimate that's it that we have to look at everything as so interconnected that we

can only look at the positive aspects even though a part of us may sort of implicitly recognize negative aspects but we can't put a charge on them because that activates our own belief systems the placebo effect a whole range of things that start to create the Hologram in that way Michael Talbot that's a wonderful note to close on thank you so much for being with me thank you