Meet the Man Who Solved YouTube (Paddy Galloway Interview)

I can make any Niche viral literally any Niche viral that's Patty Galloway the most prolific YouTube strategist in the world and he is here today to address the most common problem hurting smaller channels oh I can't do this because my Niche isn't like that or my Niche is limited because I think so often creators use that as an excuse over the past decade Patty has worked with thousands of channels and generated over 10 billion views and in this video he's going to walk you through the strategy he used to do it including pre-production I was

like to say there's three main sources of ideas internal ideas external ideas and then packaging at 20% better title could mean double triple quadruple it could mean a 100 times more views and some hot takes there is no meta thank you to one of 10 for sponsoring this video some of the most common comments we get from people especially when we have videos about how to find more success on YouTube is people will say things like that great but that won't work for my Niche or yeah but I'm operating in this really small audience or

that would never work for me so my first question to you is are there niches that are just destined to fail like are there niches that are just too small to make work on YouTube this is honestly one of my biggest uh pet peeves as a strategist as someone that works with so many different channels is people just associate me with you know the biggest creators I've work with um and I sometimes feel like like saying hey like I've worked with hundreds of channels I'm not just like a beast boy I'm not just like a

Mr Beast disciple just because I might have worked with him at some point in the past I've worked with channels in so many different niches and I have yet to find a single Niche where I can't get some traction now that traction might look different for different niches you know some niches are naturally smaller I always like to use this term which you know and you've you've heard me talk about before Tam totally addressable Market I like to think about that for YouTube channels and think like how big is the market for something but every

time someone has come to me and said hey you know my Niche is too small it's all well and good you talking about all this stuff I don't have all this money my Niche is small I don't have this and that I look at their Niche and it's like a golf Niche I'm like 30 million people play golf every weekend or something like you know there's a there's a lot of viewership in the golf Niche there's there's plenty of room there or it's something like knitting and you know again like go go search knitting on

YouTube and filter by most viewed you'll see knitting videos with millions of views so I have yet to sort of find a niche that I don't think has a big enough audience of course there's going to be like some exceptions some examples of things which are just so so hyper Niche that there's only a few thousand people in the world that care about it and in which case maybe in that situation you should look at trying a different Niche but um I really I really hate that um that Viewpoint of oh I can't do this

because my Niche isn't like that or my Niche is limited because I think so often creators use that as an excuse to to not actually try harder with their content and not to put the onus on themselves to make great content instead just blaming the market they're operating within it feels like a very disempowering belief like why would you want to believe that there's a low ceiling on what you're trying to do I feel like you should be doing everything in your power to blow that ceiling off what you think you can do so when

you think about the The Tam the total addressable Market how do you actually go about identifying or calculating what you think the Tam for a channel might be yeah I love I love thinking about it like that as like a limiting belief because my team will sort of testify this I've you know built a small team around myself over the the last few years and something I always say is like the mindset you have towards content and like the the sort of philosophy you have towards content has a huge impact in what you actually go

on to do so like one thing my team will always hear me say is we can make literally any n viral like I can make any Niche viral just give me the topics give me the tools give me the right sort of Direction and I can make that Niche viral and um I think even just like this idea like you talked about of or like we've talked about of Tam like how do you calculate that sometimes people think about things there's a fancy name for it Tam they over complicate it to me it's just about

saying well what's our Niche let's just say our Niche is golf let's go to YouTube search golf in YouTube and then in the search filters that you can apply on YouTube this isn't using some like weird paid tool just on YouTube search that term golf um filter it for longer videos so just filter out short so you can actually filter video length in the search filters on YouTube and just then sort by most viewed and what you'll see is for golf you'll see like probably all these huge outliers at the top where there's like some

random like you know I know the side men make a golf video that has 34 4 million views that's probably not an accurate representation of how many views there could be for the golf Niche but if you go down a little bit further you see okay here's this Golf Channel that does tutorials there's many videos they have that have a million views here's just so the Golf Channel that does entertainment videos he has like one and two million view videos and before you know you're getting a picture of okay at the very high level the

best channels in the space get this viewership that's probably a pretty accurate picture of roughly where your time could be now of course there's some niches that aren't capitalized yet there's some niches that haven't been fully explored and discovered and conquered by creators so there is like more viewership in some of those niches but time to me is just really just seeing what are the best in the niche currently doing views wise like what are they hitting and what am I hitting so before blaming the niche I could look at that and say well if

I'm a Golf Channel that's doing like 100,000 views a video which is still great but I'm like my Niche is too small I need to change I need to Pivot well if the best channels are doing a million views of video I'm still like 10% of what I could be doing 10% which is kind of crazy when you think about it and a lot of people that come to me with these things of saying I'm in too small of a niche they the real reality is they're probably a Golf Channel doing 10,000 views a video

or 5,000 views a video so that's just generally how I think about it just like looking at what the biggest channels are doing and using that as a bit of a benchmark for what is possible in the niche do you have any examples of channels that they started off narrower than they needed to be and you decided hey let's actually expand the way were thinking about this to have a larger total addressable Market yeah someone someone I do think is a great example of it and it's someone I'm sure you're familiar with is Noah Kagan

so when I first started doing some work with Noah Kagan I believe that was 2020 or 2021 and I could just see he was like a really talented entrepreneur he had lots of interesting stories but he was doing like very very Niche things when I thought there was more potential there I thought like he had built a lot of the foundation of what a great YouTube channel needs to be so he had he built a team he had good editing he had like decent thumbnails but the topics he was picking was like you know six

tools that help me run my business or how to use slack or how to like which Zoom Zoom versus like Google meets like like these sort of like very Niche business topics um and I went in and I was like what if we just go for bigger swings we go for bigger videos we go for things like you know asking millionaires for advice and you know that's obviously such a huge Trend now but we were doing that like two or three years ago um going going for like really General business videos that we could say

to ourselves someone at the very beginning of their Journey who doesn't know what slack even is because they don't even need to think about slack yet because they're just by themselves they can watch this video and enjoy it and then also someone that's a more seasoned entrepreneur can still watch and enjoy it because they'll still find interest in the things we're covering in the video and actually just even going back to this idea of like niches being too limited or like my Niche is boring like even when I was thinking before this podcast I was

just some names just came to mind like someone that was actually in the last cohort of uh my accelerator program which is you know this group coaching program I run his name was Andrew millison have a guess what his Niche is like it's the most it's it like the actual Niche itself is so Niche but he gets so much viewership like try to think of the most random Niche you can think of oh my gosh okay I'm going to guess that he does um Eastern dance Trends it's a great guess great guess that is pretty

neat and actually sounds like probably quite good viewership in that I might I might look into that right after this the podcast so his Niche is horiculture and more specifically permaculture which I believe hopefully no one calls me out on this in the comments but I believe it's just like a a strain of horticulture that focuses more on like permanently like building out sustainable horiculture like you know resources uh plants Farms you know uh Water Systems this is what he focuses on on his channel that's like his background and if I was to tell you

okay he's he nich is horiculture he's like a lecturer in horiculture um what do you think like his most huged recent video got well to answer that it's 12 million views wow got 12 million views on a video during our last cohort the video was how the UN is holding back the Sahara Desert and that has 12 million views in four months um and across his channel you're just seeing you know 1.5 million 1.6 million he's got multiple videos that are a million plus when he started his channel he was focusing much more on kind

of a bit more Niche topics around like water harvesting uh rehydrating the concrete jungle like maybe show these videos on screen as we're talking about it a lot of these are much more kind of Niche and then he realized that wow even though this is like a small potentially boring Niche I can make really broad topics so that 12 million view video how the UN is holding back the Sahara Desert it's got a really interesting fil I love like the the left and right contrast in the fil the title itself how the UN so the

UN is a very well-known thing you know the United Nations super wellknown everyone knows about it like really top of mind holding back the Sahara Desert like just that framing of holding back I love that that term holding back the Sahara Desert he is managed to build his niche of permaculture um and gardening basically into a topic that's relevant to 12 million plus people and I think that's like you know this is kind of what it's all about right when you when you think about how easy it would be for him to say oh I

can never get views in this Niche because no one cares about permaculture or like you know there's not enough interesting topics I can't make the average person care about it well he made 12 million people care about a video about you know the Sahara Desert and permac culture in the Sahara Desert so it's a great example of just thinking beyond your Niche and kind of playing into some of the the key principles I think about when it comes to building out um big viewership in a smaller Niche and there are tools that can help you

do that like today's sponsor one of 10 one of 10 is a tool specifically made to help YouTubers find better ideas using outlier videos here's how let's go over to the filters Tab and set the parameters for our search we'll set the multiplier to a 3X minimum meaning it will only show us videos that had three times the views relative to the average of that Channel's last five videos and we want these videos to have at least 100,000 views and were posted in the last year now we want to dig in and get really specific

because we're thinking beyond our Niche here Let's Pretend We're uh a productivity Channel looking for our next big idea I'm going to search toys cuz why not we'll see where to go from here I tested illegal kids toys this is actually really interesting if you hover over that thumbnail you'll see that you can Dive Right into similar topics or thumbnails let's click topics oh look at this I tested 100 Years of kids toys what if we could do I tested 100 Years of productivity hacks or maybe I tested 100 Years of morning routines you know

I could throw some history into the next video and make it really interesting knowing where to start and getting your creative juices flowing can feel like a really big task but with one of 10 it's really that easy to get your brainstorming process started you can try one of tent for one month for only $1 using the code Creator thank you to one of 10 for sponsoring this video if I'm thinking visually it kind of sounds like what you're suggesting is if you think about your Niche it's probably a subin interest of some number of

cascading larger interests so it seems like the advice you're giving is to go upstream or a little bit more broad above that category to figure out what is the broadest or one of the broadest categories this sits with in and let's make videos that address that audience am I getting that correct absolutely absolutely like when I'm thinking about what are the um what are the traits of a viral video within an Niche the first thing on that list of traits that I look at is what I call CCN core casual new I'm looking for videos

that hit our core so if we think about like our Niche like within our Niche there's like the really core viewers who like really care about the thing the second C stands for casual so core casual so are we hitting the more casual viewers that kind of dip in and dip out of this Niche and like care a little bit about it but they're maybe not as like hardcore viewers and are we hitting the new viewers so those are viewers that maybe aren't into the niche they haven't watched our channel before but there are people

that just if they see something interesting they might click the video so just like how let's just say we talk about permaculture horiculture maybe I don't care about that maybe I'm not into it but if I see that video about how they un is holding back the Sahara Desert it's packaged in a way that can attract me as a new viewer it probably also attracts the core viewers who really care about that topic too and it attracts the casuals who kind of dip in and dip out the best way to look at your Niche and

expand your Niche is look at every idea and say can a core casual and new viewer all click this video and enjoy it and I think that's where so many people go wrong they get too caught up in just the core they get too caught up in just like appeasing like the hardcore horiculture you know students and viewers who want to see these really technical things and they forget about the casual and the new viewer and then on the flip side some people get too caught up in the new viewer and they just forget to

like also appeal to that core and they go too broad and they kind of miss miss the mark with the audience that they have been building so I really really like to think of that like that's that framework it sounds simple and I think I've mentioned it in tweets and things before but I cannot mention it enough because that just changes how you approach YouTube you look at every niche as like you said said a kind of expanding Niche and not like a limiting Niche so if I'm reading between the lines here a little bit

it sounds like what you're saying is if I'm trying to grow my channel that means that I'm by definition trying to attract new viewers and the best way to attract new viewers is to make a video that has broader appeal so that it has a better chance of getting a click when it's in a recommended area to a stranger exactly exactly like broad broadening the peel of your niche is so crucial and I think there's this thing you know curse of knowledge bias where when we know something we assume everyone else knows it and what

that means is sometimes as as you know creators in niches we can end up always trying to go like really specific and narrow to try to like show viewers new things but sometimes we just forget that like oh actually the more simple things the more simple ways of framing things like that might seem obvious to us but maybe that expands the reach of the video maybe it makes it more interesting to you know broader group of people so yeah I'm always looking at it and saying like how can we just make sure that we're not

just limiting it to the horee viewers and often if you're if you're hardcore enough of a niche of a fan of a niche to make a YouTube channel around it you're going to want to go really Niche and specific but that's in itself a trap because then you end up just appealing to other people that are just as hardcore about the niche as you are and that's probably a very small percentage of viewers is there a risk here of making something that is so broadly appealing that it goes well and suddenly our audience isn't targeted

for what we're actually trying to do anymore yeah I think I think I always find that point kind of interesting because there definitely is something to it but from my point of view like I would describe myself as like a view maximizer you know and I am very like open about that like I go into channels and I try to maximize views I try to take channels from a million views a month to 10 million views a month to 100 million views a month there are so many other objectives we have as creators sometimes that

objective might be hey we actually have a niche product that is actually more focused on the more hardcore you know really focused viewers in this Niche so expanding out broad doesn't actually do much for our bigger business um and in that case it's okay to just like Focus down on that more specific viewer but if our goal is to grow viewership then I don't think we should ever be afraid of trying to expand that out so long as we're not just like you know doing absolutely random stuff just in you know in attempt just jumping

on any Trend so long as there's still that core casual and new which is why you have to hit each one of those points because if you're just going after the new VI if you're just like randomly jumping onto any Trend you can then you're not bringing along your core with you um but yeah it's it's kind of fascinating how many creators come to me and they say like I want to get more views I'm like okay here's more views and they're like oh now that I've got more views I don't like how it means

I have to make these more broad videos and it's like it's the classic Trope it's like the classic case of like the the alt band saying they want to make it rich and famous they make it rich and famous and now they're like oh I miss when I was like able to play these small shows and like had this real connection now we have people in the audience who are just wearing t-shirts and don't actually know the music and you know it's the classic kind of like situation but I think it's really it really comes

down to the Creator to be really clear to themselves but then also if they if they end up working with someone like me or someone else to be like my my main objective is product sales for this Niche product and in which case I'll be like okay let's instead of focusing on getting you to 10 million views a month let's focus on getting you to two or three million really targeted views per month um and that would actually end up contributing more to the overall business yeah that that leads me to what may sound like

a really obvious or weird question but who should be a views maximizer like what is the conditions where views maximization is the right thing to be chasing what what else needs to be true for me I think like the first thing is if if you're main vehicle for generating revenue and we could also get even like very meta on this and say like is even generating Revenue your goal because if a Creator is just like I want to make enough to pay my bills and just really make content I'm passionate about that sometimes can be

at odds with generating more Revenue through views you know so like we have to be kind of clear about what we want to do but if you're if your main vehicle for for Revenue generation is AD revenue and I mean that in terms of AdSense on you videos and sponsorships on YouTube videos if that's your main vehicle that you see as the main way to make revenue on your channel you should be a view maximizer in my opinion within reason you know because there's even like you know more deeper arguments around hey like if you

go too broad your viewers might not convert as well to um sponsorships and etc etc so like there's there's always these kind of exceptions and things to think about and you know there's a friend of mine who runs a YouTube agency and his name is Dave wiscus if you ever heard of him and he always like talks about how yeah like sometimes these like creators have really viral view counts and they do really well but from a sponsorship perspective the data shows they don't actually convert because they go so broad so like there is like

all these kind of exceptions things to think about things to take into consideration but most channels could benefit from having a mindset of I want to get more views and I want to like build out a bigger audience especially people that are like still maybe below that line of being able to make a full-time living from it so I I would say the only people I would discount are people that are looking at it and saying hey I can make more money by focusing on a very small specific group of viewers and those people might

be people who sell like a product a course like if you're selling like a course let's say you're selling a course on how to like you know effectively use slack you know as a as a manager you want to Target managers that use slack in the organization you don't want to make a video like you know I use slack for 3,000 hours I used every product tool for like stuff like that might not really bring in the right kind of viewership for you so I think getting really clear about where your main vehicle for generating

revenue is but I would say most people their main vehicle is still ad sales um through AdSense or through sponsorship and through maybe Affiliates and other things as opposed to a product even for people with the product though there's still more of that viewership that you can attract you just have to be a bit more tactful you don't you don't want to just completely go and say hey I'm just going to try and make the most Mr beastify viral video I can it's more about within my Niche what can I do so I'm just even

thinking of an example like let's just say you're you are this slack example we gave you sell a course on how to use slack as a manager so making like a really weird viral video where you're like trying to like go viral with slack in some way probably isn't a great idea but making a video that follows a trend that has gone super viral across multiple niches which is if I was to start over with Slack here's what i' do we've seen that go viral like if I had to start coding all over again here's

what i' do if I started to learn web design over again here's what I do you'll see these examples of plenty of outliers so as that channel you could look at that and model off that video and say hey could I do that for slack maybe it won't get 500,000 views but if I'm used to getting a th000 views a video and that gets 30,000 views we have maximized views you know we've increased views and we brought in the right kind of viewership so I think for channels that just have a specific vehicle they sell

to through a specific Revenue generating vehicle like a product or like something more Niche you have to still think about it as core casual new but in this case your new viewer is not going to be just a complete casual your new viewers maybe just like still someone that uses slack but just isn't like your exact customer profile I'm curious to hear what are some of the aspects or similarities across videos and different niches that you see lead to virality what are the what are the commonalities of videos across niches that all go viral so

I'd really like to make it very simple number one the video has to have CCN fit so we've already talked about that core casual new fit we won't dive into that again but the first thing should be does this idea have interest across all those bases I I've referenced this before in the past but like even for my channel when I was active on my own Channel with my own name like I would look at it and say the world's biggest Creator needs to be able to watch this and and my mother needs to be

able to watch this you know someone who is like an absolute hardcore YouTube Nerd and then also someone that's just roughly interested in the whole platform so core casual new a second trait of viral videos that I look for for any nich is some form of unique novelty value something about it that makes this video just feel like it's its own thing its own Island and not just like another you know screaming into the void idea something unique so we talked about that Andrew millison um example of you know the UN holding back the Sahara

Desert like that feels like he has some information something new that I don't know that I haven't heard before so always looking for that like what is unique what is novel about what I can talk about and that kind of goes into why we should spend so much time on brainstorming and trying to find new fresh things for our Niche so that's another thing sounds simple but number three easy to convey entitle and thumbnail so many great ideas are hard to convey entitle thumbnail and they're just not great ideas then they're just you know they're

just interesting things they're not great ideas CU a great idea has to be easy to convey in a title th mail um and I get really annoyed at YouTubers saying I've got this amazing idea I just kind of think give had to thumbnail it and I'm like you don't have an amazing idea then so that would be the third thing like making sure you convey in the title F out really easily and then the fourth thing that I always look for is like other people in your Niche or even friends that like have similar interest

to you when you mention the idea to them do they get excited like do they just genuinely feel like oh that's interesting that's exciting and I I always like this idea of building a bit of a council around yourselves like a YouTube Council around yourselves so that you can ask people like hey I'm thinking you're doing this like do you find that interesting do you find that you know does that make you excited so when I'm when I'm looking at these niches like if you just start applying these little Frameworks to like how you think

about it even the first one just being CCN fit you're naturally going to start looking at bigger videos you're not going to just look at like a really specific thing let's just take another Niche for example so um it's just they give another channnel 731 Woodworks it's a woodworking Channel now I think woodworking is really interesting but you could argue that like it's not a niche that you can Mr beastify it's not a niche you can like make viral because it's just all about like tools and whatever if you look at that channel um a

lot of the videos are built around viral formats they are things like testing hacks testing woodworking hacks or 99% of Woodworkers get this thing wrong or you know this tool is now illegal in seven and a half States or you know there there's just like these these funny ideas that are built around just like looking at the idea and saying okay my core is like hardcore Woodworkers but how do we also make these topics interesting to people that like do it as more of a hobby or maybe they're just generally interested in making things but

they're not like a hardcore woodworker so instead of being like reviewing the uh you know wood Tron woodsa 3,400 um Second Edition it's just like this tool is so good it should be illegal or um reviewing the uh the most expensive woodworking tool in the world or comparing the wish you know saw to like this $500 saw you know like he's looking at it and saying how can I make things Broad and viral so um yeah I think it is really just about looking bigger and just thinking of unique novel Broad and some of these

other traits we've mentioned for these viral videos across niches what about their packaging gets people to click how do you think about title and thumbnail so that people want to actually click I would always say like too too many people get caught up in the like the design itself like the Aesthetics so often I just look at it and say it's showing something simple so you can look at it um I'm not even sure maybe we talked about this on the last podcast but I always like this idea of the glance test sometimes I'll put

my thumb on a Google slide and the slide before I'll have just a blank white Slide the slide after I'll have a blank white slide and I'll just flick onto the thumbnail slide really quickly and I'll keep the thumbnail quite small as well and I'll just ask myself can I process what's on screen like in that Split Second because people just vastly overestimate how much time the average viewer looks at a thumbnail the average viewer looks at a thumbnail for well under a second like it's going to be milliseconds it's very hard to like study

this but the sort of nonperfect scientific stud I've done on this like just from observing people scrolling and just some other tests I've tried like people look at thumbnails for milliseconds so you need to have something in there that's just really easy to process and get across right away so you know this idea I came up with this idea um I don't want to say came up with it because it makes it sound like I take the credit but a few years ago in a video I I mentioned this idea called the three element rule

the reason I I I brought that up and the reason why I think a lot of people use it and reference it is because you shouldn't really have more more than three things that the viewer is focusing on in a thumbnail if anything three is even too much like can you just have like one to three little things they have to focus on so if I'm having to look at a face another face an item text over here a logo over here text over down here there's too much in a thumbnail and too many beginners

just feel I have all this space let's fill it but if you then go and look at the most viral videos on YouTube so many of them like they have empty space like you know instead of like showing like this saw with like all these things point at it these different arrows is text over here text over there sometimes it's just as simple as just like an arrow a saw and a face or something you know instead of having too much stuff filling up the screen so I think Simplicity is is really important and then

just like trying to show something this is always hard to kind of convey in words but trying to show something that looks a little bit it's like on the verge of believable um or unbelievable it's like it's not misleading but it's exaggeration of the thing so like can we show something that you know if we're trying to show the world's uh most expensive saw in a video I don't think it's clickbait to go in and like add some gold onto the saw or like put some shine on it like put like a little like diamond

encrusted thing on it or something so we're going in and just enhancing some of the details to just make it feel still it's still not clickbait because we're still showing the world's most expensive saw and the world's most expensive saw probably looks pretty good but we're going in and we're just trying to like make it look a bit more shiny and clickable so I think if you combine Simplicity and exaggeration without going too far in the realm of clickbait you have a really nice formula for for good thumbnails and and also a lot of it

is just like you know studying other thumbnails in your Niche like what are the what are people clicking on because like someone would bring up like oh at this Niche people only click on this kind of stuff or like I've even seen in different geographies like for example in um quite a lot of like countries like Singapore or like Malaysia countries um that speak a different language especially Asian countries they actually quite often click on thumbnails with a lot more text in them than in the Western World I've just noticed that um so you know

that's always something to think about as well like culture Niche what's working your Niche but generally speaking I don't think you can go wrong by saying let's keep it simple and let's exaggerate something slightly you talk so much about all of the pre-production work with packaging and thinking about an idea how much of a difference does that pre-production really make love that question because I would say the biggest difference I think between top level creators and beginner creators is top level creators we're putting way more time into the pre-production into planning before we make the

content whereas a lot of more beginners will just sort of say I want to make this here's roughly how I think about it let's make it you know so putting like real thought into developing these things before we even press record before we even end up writing the script like I want to see like actual details of how this could go because at some level on YouTube it just becomes a game of decision- making and our decisions are like what do we pursue just like how in a really big business like someone like an Amazon

they have all these potential they can make money in so many areas they can do it here here here and everywhere but they have to sit in their boardroom and say like out of these 100 opportunities like which are the ones that we should focus our energy on some as a point of frustration for me is when I talk to people who are either beginner YouTubers or a bit more inexperienced or even like people completely outside YouTube Niche like you know the brands that my company works with and different people they will look at it

and they will kind of be a little bit put out or a little bit sometimes honestly frustrated with me with how much detail I put on these little little things like you know how much I will push for a certain tile over another title an example I actually bring up quite a lot is um we work at Red Bull that's one of our bigger clients we had this video um a few months ago which was world's fastest camera drone versus F1 car that video I believe has 20 million plus views so that title I think

is a great title it's just really simple straight to the point you get it but if we had titled it something else and there were other titles on the drawing board that we could have used if we had titled it something that was maybe 10 or 20% worse the video wouldn't have 10 or 20% less views it might have a fraction of the views it it might have like two or three million views which is still Lots obviously but YouTubers often think of it too linearly and think okay 20% better title yeah the video might

get 20% more views but what if I prefer this title or what if I don't like calling it this other title like it's not going to make that much difference can I just call it this title but a 20% better title could mean double triple quadruple it could mean a 100 times more views because YouTube is this exponential game and returns are nonlinear like a 20% better thing might mean the video ends up doing a bit better with more people and then that can lead this snowball in motion which can then lead to more and

more and more views so being a bit better with a lot of people can lead to a much bigger return than you can imagine so the reason I push like focusing on title fil focusing on the topic focusing how you present things and this pre-production so hard is because these things make a massive difference and honestly like I can't say how many times in my career I've had I've been in rooms with people where they've been like we like your title Patty but we think we want to go with this title and then I say

why and they go like it just feels a bit more aligned to our brand and then I would say okay like aligning to your brand is really important but if I was to say your title will get 1 million views and my one will get 10 million views would you feel the same way and they'd say how can you know that I'm like I don't know that but I do know that Myan is 10 or 20% better and being 10 or 20% better in an infinite exponential game has huge outside returns you know the video

won't just get 1.2 million views versus 1 million maybe it will get 1 million versus 10 million so it's one of the reasons I get so excited about these little nerdy small details um and yeah even that example we use from Andrew mson of the the UN Sahara video like that video with like a different title or a slightly different thumbnail that topic might have only got 500,000 views instead of 12 million how do I take that Insight which I agree with and believe and not allow it to paralyze me from publishing at all setting

a limit on how long you you give yourself to to overthink I I think some overthinking is fine but just set a limit if you're overthinking a title for week big problem if you're overthinking it for an hour and then after that hour you say I have to come up with something and and stick with it you know just just make that happen so I think setting a time limit and then also like realizing and understanding that there will be always views left on the table like there's not a single video I've worked on in

my entire career that we got 100% of the views we could have got every single video I've ever worked on we could have got even more views with something slightly different but it's just a game of getting us close to Perfection as possible but Perfection needs to have a time limit you need some constraint otherwise you'll just not post anything so I think especially for smaller creators like the reason I even bring up this point of like nonlinear returns and how exponential YouTube is is to excite us with the potential we have but when you're

a small Creator like it's still so important to just like publish publish videos right because the pursuit of perfection the pursuit of perfection doesn't account for the other factor in that equation which is timeline and the the longer time goes on on the less learning we have the less videos we're publishing the less we're like you know trying to to to make things happen don't know if this analogy will hit but like imagine like you were someone that just always tried to find like the perfect husband or wife forever but then by the time you

finally find them you're like 65 and it's like oh you know like in my pursuit of perfection I forgot that the other timeline was was actual time passing so I think that's a a way of thinking about it is we can be perfectionist we can overthink but just for an hour just for two hours not for two weeks it's empowering because it it goes to s a little bit of extra work on the package on the title and thumbnail and the idea can have outsized returns so that's where there's leverage that's where you should put

a little bit of extra time because finding a little bit of a breakthrough can have a huge return for you but you're right there has to be a limit otherwise we'll we'll go back and forth forever absolutely the majority of people watching this probably are still feeling like ah my Channel's pretty small I haven't really broken through yet and so I'm wondering if there's like an order of operations when the Channel's small and I'm getting started for which of the core casual and new I should develop first like should I go broad first to try

and get in front of a lot of people so that some of those people become core fans or should I start a little bit more narrow develop the core fandom and then broaden out from there what do you do you think about that there's actually it that question really ties in well with a tweet I made yesterday which was how I would grow a YouTube channel from scratch in 12 months 12 steps and I broke the 12 steps into these different phases phase one I called establishment phase two I called improvements and phase three I

called optimization so I almost like thinking of like a YouTube's Channel's like growth along those lines first of all you just need to establish yourself like what am I what am I doing I need to start making videos I need to get good at making videos then you need to get into this phase of like now I need to keep improving upon that establishment like improve in all these different areas start thinking about strategy and start thinking about idea generation more deeply and then over time you end up optimizing and tweaking to get to that

Final Destination you want to be so for your question I think we're looking more at that like establishment stage so like before we really think about like how do we you know get in depth on all this stuff look at all this data retention curves like we need to figure out like what we are and who we are as a channel and will say throughout my entire career it's always worked better for me to focus more narrow and more at that core first and then expand out over time uh because you just it's you can

never go the other way you can't really start like going after the broad and then go more narrow because that's just like what alienate so many of those viewers I think it's it's e also easier to get traction when you're focusing on a bit more of a specific smaller Niche um I'm even thinking back to like when I used to have um music channels like I would start with like a really specific sub genre of a niche of music then I would start building out so if it starts with like French deep uh deep hip-hop

or deep bass or something drum and bass then it would like expand a little bit out to like European drama base then even further you know it would just kind of build from a really small core and then grow from there because you can kind of almost look at it like almost like monkey bars to like different places like you you start in here and then because you're here that means that some of this niches overlap okay so now I can sort of expand out to this broader thing with some overlap with my thing and

then I can expand out over here and before you know it you can kind of capture more of the total total Niche or total whole niche as itself because like every Niche has like sub niches like we've kind of alluded to but yeah I find it I find it really interesting how like sometimes I I look at a new Creator and immediately they're trying to make these super viral like really broad videos there are examples of where that works um I have a friend James Janny who I reference quite a bit cuz I think he's

just such a really great Creator his first few videos got like millions of views like he just he just hit it out the park right away that is the exception survivorship bias is such a real thing with with YouTube if you look at most channels that are now doing 100K 200k 500k a million views a video they started more Niche down so start Niche and expand and grow from there for sure how do I know when I'm moving out of the established phase and into the growth phase where I need to be looking more at

data and analytics and things I think some of it is like volume of videos posted so people will argue with with me on this like I'm sure like other strategists might disagree with this but like The more I've realized this like I've been doing this for 10 years now creators just get overwhelmed if you say to a Creator hey you need to start making videos you need to start making two videos a week and you need to learn all about retention curves you need to learn data you need to learn how to like come up

with good ideas you need to learn how to package you need to learn all this stuff it can just be like really overwhelming so how do you go from like that establishment phase to that Improvement sort of growth phase I think what you do first is say am I in a consistent you know Cadence of posting videos some people will say Patty you've said in the past that you know a consistent schedule doesn't matter it doesn't matter algorithmically but it can matter a lot mentally and philosophically for yourself to get into like a regular Cadence

of posting if you're really good you can post whenever you want but you're not really good at the start so you need to kind of have that repetition over time so the first thing I would look at before moving into that stage is are we posting regularly and have we learned how to make videos you know like this sounds silly but like every YouTuber that we look up to they know how to like roughly make things you know um and there's some examples I think especially in this like new age of create creation where like

people can hire editors and th designers earlier in the process but still like even if if I look at myself like I can edit videos I can I could edit a video if you sat down there and sent me the clips for this and put it together I could edit it is it going to be very good no but it'll be passible I can make thumbnails I made thumbnails for years I've made thumbnails for clients like I can go into to photoshop and make thumbnails I have the fundamental skills to be a Creator so I

love the idea that in that establishment phase instead of working and thinking about strategy too deeply we're building those fundamental skills we're making videos ideally maybe one or two videos every single week and we're doing that for a period of time where maybe we have 30 40 50 videos posted then we look at it and say okay let's say we got 50 videos posted we have learned the skills in Photoshop and video editing now we have a foundation where we can put strategy on top it's kind of it's kind of frustrating when I see someone

put really a lot of effort into strategy and ideation and coming up with like really good ideas but their execution is so weak that they're just wasting those ideas so like at the start I just say make whatever you want like pick your Niche like we need to pick our Niche we need to pick our Niche SL subnation like focusing on that but then from there just make what calls to you make what interests you like make what feel like passionate about some of it will maybe do okay some of it will do terrible the

majority probably won't do anything at all um and then over time you can then look at it and say I'm sitting in this position where I've been doing this for four or five months now I have 50 videos posted I've got the fundamental skills if I now put the strategy component on top if I now think about my YouTube studio if I start studying my retention curves if I start putting more effort into brainstorming ideas so instead of just saying I'm going to make whatever I want to we're going to start thinking about it and

saying I'm going to put a huge amount of effort into brainstorming I'm going to schedule time each week to brainstorm ideas I'm going to use a process of elimination to make sure I pick the best ideas we start putting more strategy behind it we have a foundation we can build upon so I think before moving into that stage we just need to make sure we're making videos consistently and we're improving and we've got a foundation of skill for you know Photoshop video editing whatever it might be and if that Foundation of skill isn't one you

have yourself it's at least having someone on your team that you've built to cover those areas I think that's so true I talked to a lot of creators who are stuck around platform strategy they haven't even decided yet which platforms should I be posting on and they'll ask me like should I do YouTube and YouTube has the most moving parts of any platform in my opinion the most variables that could go wrong and sync the performance of the entire video if you don't do it pretty well you really have to get a lot of things

working in concert from the idea to the packaging which is both title and thumbnail uh not just the composition of it but the literal visual design of it then you need to make sure the video starts out really well so you have good retention uh you probably need to keep people's attention throughout the whole video obviously there's just so many each of these things are like their own art form almost and you can get good at all of it and that's what the great YouTubers are doing but it's such an investment of time that in

the beginning you need to get reps of doing the whole video so you at least experience and start building the muscle memory of all of these different moving parts and variables involved I couldn't agree more couldn't agree more like sometimes I I actually have been quite reflect of like the advice I've given over the years and like how I've approached things and sometimes I have like this benefit of I've done it for 10 15 years I have this experience these repetitions and we talked a bit earlier about this curse of knowledge bias sometimes I forget

like how many little skills go into making a channel happen so to think about like a new viewer being told hey you need to learn how to edit that's hard you need to learn how to do thumbnails that's also hard you need to learn how to like storytelling camera you need to learn how to like you know do some basic lighting color grading do all that stuff and you need to do this every week and you need to come up with ideas and then be like also as well you need to think really deeply about

strategy you need to follow what Patty gway says on Twitter where he says he goes through this whole process of like hundreds of ideas and you can just imagine how overwhelming that is so I love the idea of just breaking it down into those different stages and I think that's the best way to grow like a channel from scratch or from smaller to a big Channel or at least a channel doing quite well momentum wise as as fast as possible um and yeah I think like it's kind of when I really break it down like

YouTube is unlike any other platform in that it is really really really difficult to get good at but when you get good at it it starts to feel quite easy it starts to feel like you know you can be in this position where earlier in this podcast I said I feel I have the confidence to feel that I can make any nich faral and I haven't had negative reinforcement to tell me I can't you know every time I've done something with someone with enough time we have made progress and we have got viewership and it's

quite an easy input output game when you learn what the inputs are but yeah it's Cra Crazy overwhelming to think about starting on YouTube today and having all this information all these people talking saying you need to do this this and this sometimes you just need to take a bit of time to be quiet and make 30 40 50 videos and just learn how to edit and make thumbil on storytale if you do that first few months you're going to have a much better Foundation if I'm looking at other videos that have been successful maybe

it's my own videos maybe it's other videos in my Niche maybe it's videos outside of my Niche but I can see that this video had the outcome that I want it had the type of views that I'm looking to get how do I start to understand what made that video successful yeah I think there's a few things I like to do the first thing is just like actually having these prompts so like writing these prompts down maybe you can just actually take a screenshot of the video and put it in a Google doc or a

notion or whatever you use for your note taking and just have these prompts instead to just like reflect on them so one prompt I was like is what made this unique so we talked about earlier about how you know viral videos usually have some level of unique novelty value so like what did make this unique like was it something in the topic was it like something specific to this thumbil that made it different to everything else so what made this unique I was like to ask myself like what about the packaging made it special what

about the packaging made it an outlier like was there some way they titled it or thumbnailed it that just felt different to how most people in the space do it or just built up upon a bit of a different format than most people something that I think is um super interesting is when I do see these outlier videos like these and when I say outlier I'm thinking like a video that gets three or four times more than the average at minimum on a channel usually when I see an outlier it's not going to be oh

they tried a different color grade or oh they upgraded their camera those things matter but they don't have this kind of like exponential difference usually what it's more often about is hey something about the idea itself the title or the thumbnail is what made that such an outlier so I really like to dig into those things and ask myself those questions of made it unique what about the title film now another really good prompt is why did this go viral and others similar to it didn't so there is a lot of survivorship bias at stake

here where sometimes people can look at like a video and say oh this went really viral but then if you look deeper you'll see they tried the same video like eight other times that didn't go viral so you have to ask yourself like was this just a lucky break on this video or was there something different or unique about it so I think you can learn a lot by saying hey this person wasn't the first to cover this topic but the other people that covered this topic got 10,000 views and this guy got 150,000 views

why like what was let's put them side by side let's look at some differences and how it's actually put together that can make a big difference a lot of it you can never be 100% sure but a lot of it is if you just start reflecting more and digging deeper into that video and just looking at things like the timing as well when it came out how the views trended over time I think that's a really useful way to do it and also I'll give a quick shout out to um to my friend Chucky who's

just launched stats um alongside Mr Beast like they have some interesting tools which allows you to like search reverse basically like reverse search a thumbnail so if you have a thumbnail that you see that goes really viral you can place it into their their thumbnail search and it will like look at like other thumbnails um like it so you can see oh were they the first person to come up with this concept or maybe they saw this concept go super viral in another Niche and they tried it in this Niche and that's why it went

viral so I think the more like deeper thing here is just taking time to really reflect on a video as oppos to to just being like chalking it down to something really quickly oh it's because they have more money than me or oh it's because they're a bigger Channel or oh it's because XY Z if you actually just sit there and just try to reflect and almost like Journal around why a certain video did well you can learn a lot if I'm looking at my own channel and one of my videos that performed better than

I anticipated is there any data in YouTube Studio that you look at that you feel like is a reliable indicator or gives you some sort of unique insight into why a video did better than you might have expected expected honestly there's nothing there's nothing really that just like gives you a definitive answer like here are some things I would look at if a video went way better than expected I would look at the demographics so like is it appealing to a bit of a different audience than usual sometimes I've seen this where like a video

goes really viral I'm like digging into why that could be and then I realize oh it's going really viral in a certain country it might be getting a lot of viewership in India and then I try to figure out why is it getting a lot of viewership in India or you know maybe it's going really viral with a different age group to what I'm used to and it's resonating really well there so dig a bit into the demographics and try to figure out if there's any Trends there I look I like to look at device

type so going to YouTube Studio clicking Advance mode and looking at device type and seeing are we getting more views on a different device type to usual could that be a reason behind you know the the extra viewership are we like doing really well on this video on TV why could that be well maybe because this video was longer than our average videos and longer videos typically do better on TV or you know start to like build some hypothesis from that I also like to look at the new viewer metric to see like what you

know what number of views on this video were new viewers versus returning viewers just to give us an idea of like oh maybe it's just because this video ended up resonating really well with new viewers and then you can bring it back to yourself to ask yourself the question of why why was that the case and obviously just like studying the view Trend over time as well did this get like a lot of views really quickly or did it slowly build did it rank in search traffic sources like where was that traffic coming from so

I'm sort of throwing out these different things I'll look at but it all comes back to the fact that you're not going to have like a single thing that says here's exactly why this went viral so much of it is just looking at all the data points looking at all you know about the video and how it performed and taking that time to adequately reflect on it so many creators they just like see something goes viral and they just like spend like three seconds or you know thinking oh that went viral because of this let's

just do more of that you know instead of like taking a bit of time to dig into it so um there's no data point there's no magic data point that gives you the reason the video went viral but you can look at these things to sort of paint the picture I always like that metaphor of like data kind of like can start to color in some of the picture but you still need to zoom out and look at the full picture and see oh here's why this video went viral we get a lot of people

who ask me hey why did your video with Jenny Hoyos do so well and it's like a hilarious question because if I knew the answer to that I would just do that every time uh but you know it's it's about to cross 3 million views and the one thing that I can point to and say this was definitively different about this video is it had a higher click-through rate in the first 24 hours and so now I just spin myself out saying how do I get the best click-through rate in the first 24 hours uh

but it's so hard to know what combination of title and thumbnail amongst the the stable of titles and thumbnails we've thought about which one will be the best one how do you how do you test packaging to try to find the best answer before you actually push it live on a video yeah so I want to dig into this because this is really interesting because CTR itself is a very fickle and in some ways infuriating metric where if you ask me is CTR useful I would say CTR as a metric obviously like the act of

people clicking on a video is extremely important so when people say C is useless or not useful then people take the wrong takeaway of saying oh thumbnails don't matter it's just not how you think about it but CTR as an entire metric is very difficult because the more Impressions the video gets the lower the CTR drops typically so you'll probably see even on that Jenny hoya video over time that CTR is probably dropped quite a bit lower but CTR itself as a whole is not very useful but C in the first hour first 24 hours

can be a good predictor of success on videos like I've seen that for lots of our clients so when people say CTR is not useful at all I'd point to the fact that there's a very strong correlation between first hour CTR and long-term video performance on a lot of established channels um not all channels but quite often so I would look at it and say even with that video like you know tile thumb Mount now everyone on YouTube or pretty much everyone over the next few weeks is going to have ABC testing so that's like

going to be such a big unlock because you can make up a couple different options and like test your theories in action of like which one gets more clicks I would actually with that video Let's just just think about that video for a minute like I would dig a bit deeper though like is it something you did with the design or is it something more to do with like the topic I think it's it's kind of interesting when you see Jenny and and Jenny is like quite young right she's like 18 17 18 um and

she just seeing that I think by Nature that just makes it look a bit unique because it's like this very young girl who has figured out like something really really difficult and she's doing so well it's kind of like how there's videos where you see you know this like bring it to the other side but like sometimes I've seen these videos with it's just like an old guy giving advice it's like old gives advice you could probably show that thumb on screen old man gives advice and people ask why did that video go so well

I'm like well because you don't usually scroll through your YouTube feed and see this old guy you know giving advice and I think on the same level like this space like this space of content creation and like um you know you know coming up with strategy and YouTube and how to grow I would say it's very I'd say it's generally quite male dominated uh which I think is a shame cuz I I love when I see like uh more female people coming in and talking about this niche as well but it's quite male dominated and

it's also quite a lot of like you know guys a bit older um you know guys my age and above um don't want to sound like a boomer or anything but you know I think some people like a little bit older so you see this like younger girl talking about something it just makes it unique right and then also I love how you you titled it and I love how you like put that thumb out text of like you know I can make anything viral I think those are the things I would look at so

maybe it's more about the guest and more about you know the perception of that guest and like how you see that how that makes it unique as opposed to like something specific you did in that packaging so if I was you I would start brainstorming like huh is there like any other like really young um upand cominging creators who have like figured it out at a young age so for example I know there's like these kids I've seen do podcasts that are like 16 17 and they're making like 300K a month with like YouTube or

SnapChat or something and it's like when you see that you're like part of you feels terrible cuz you're like well when I was 16 you know was making like $3 a month um so like how did that how does that happen but I think there's something unique about that itself so a great example like digging deeper and like some people could look at that and just say oh this went viral because oh we placed the text a little bit to the right or we had this thing in the bottom corner which we don't usually have

but it's much more likely around the actual topic the subject material which is I guess the Creator you're interviewing um and how you package that to the viewer than like little details like that let's look at how you vet ideas when I have an idea and I'm thinking okay I want this to hit my core casual new I feel pretty good about that what are the next steps from there for how I prioritize certain video ideas that I have making sure like I always think about this idea of the idea funnel so you have this

big funnel that you put ideas into and the end result is your funnel spits out different ideas that you can then like prioritize based on what you're feeling most excited about so like how do we put things into the funnel I was like to say there's three main sources of ideas internal ideas so things that have worked for us in the past so looking internally like what has worked on our channel can we come up with more ideas like that external ideas things that have worked for our competitors or even just other channels across YouTube

how can we come up with ideas based on things that have worked for them and then Innovation so just sort of more blue ocean like looking you know across YouTube across different Industries and saying like what's something Innovative and new that I can come up with so if you're contributing lots of ideas into the funnel from those different sources you then pass through to the kind of the filter part part which is your main question here is like how do we actually eliminate them down and I think you know asking yourselves does it have that

core casual new VI of fit it's a great question um asking Is it feasible to make happen so like if you went and did brainstorming this is kind of funny when I work with like new strategists because you know I have to I hire strategists from my business and I also like interview and talk to a lot of like upand cominging people and first of all I'll say like people are really good like some of these young kids are such good strategist and I think about YouTube really deeply but the one thing they sometimes don't

understand is like limitations and feasibility so they'll be like let's uh let's you know let's say we're brainstorming ideas for like a wildlife Channel and we could say let's come up with an idea which is like I I swam covered in blood uh with like 10 great white sharks it's like yeah that would go viral but it also might kill the Creator so like you know we got to be careful so like thinking about the feasibility of ideas is is is super important so is this feasible can we make it happen another one I get

is like people come up with these ideas but it's like you know if you brainstormed for your podcast and said like um how do we get to a million views well if you had Mr Beast on for an episode probably get to a million views but that's also quite difficult because you need to you know get a contact with Jimmy you need to like convince him that it's a good idea you probably need to grow this podcast more before he'd want to do it so like there's all these like things that get in the way

so like having that feasibility and using that as a as a score as well is important so like does it f CCN It Is it feasible the title thumbnail as well like can we actually come up with title thumbil like not only can we say yeah we can come up with it can we actually come up with one before we even go further with this like can we come up with the tile we call it and like a rough sketch of the thumbnail that can like eliminate so if you have 100 ideas in the funnel

maybe the CCN fit you eliminate like 40 of them because so many videos don't have that feasibility you eliminate like 20 of them so you've got like 40 left right then you say can I come up with title thumbil for them before you know it out of those 40 you have left now you're looking at and saying well only half of I can actually think of what I would title fum Al them so you got 20 left and then some other questions you could ask like am I actually genuinely as a Creator excited and want

to make this video because some people are surprised when I say that because I am like I mentioned earlier like a views maximizer someone that just wants to get more views but if if I think about if our goal is to get more views it's not going to really work really well if I keep making the Creditor make these ideas they don't like doing because at some point they're just going to want to not do that anymore they're going to get burnt out so long term that's going to hurt us so it's still important that

the Creator like feels passionate and excited about them so even for you yourself as a Creator just looking at it and saying am I excited to interview this person am I excited to do this thing like does this like make me want to make the content maybe then you've got 20 ideas left and that limites it down to 10 then when it comes to the 10 I always like to do this thing which I call the onepage idea development so on a one pager I like to have just a rough thumbnail sketch I like to

have a rough title so you have a thumb sketch rough title I like to have a y um Square the Y Square I just like like to list one or two or three points of like why this video is going to work and then I like to just roughly list out like the log line of the videos like roughly what the video is going to be about so if I have 10 ideas left I'm developing each one of those 10 ideas and those those one Pages again I can already hear people saying that's so much

work I've done I can do 10 onepage ideas in like an hour or two you know especially when you think about the ideas being such a source for views and momentum across a whole Channel like we can spare an hour or two to develop out these ideas you know they deserve that at least so I've developed them out in this one page I have 10 ideas then I just like to look at it myself I like to ask you know if I've got employees or if I have like other people that are in my Niche

or just friends I just like to then present those ideas so instead of getting on a call and saying hey I'm thinking about doing this idea where we swim with a great white shark it's like here's the idea here's the log line what do you think here's the idea here's the log line what do you think and just going through and asking different people's opinion like even you know myself I think I have like a good measure of what a great video is for the different clients we work with but without that like ability to

just ask others opinion you're just going to be isolated and you're going to you know Focus too much on your ego and like what you think is right so even I really like to ask just random people like even just like sometimes they get surprised but like maybe there's like a random new editor on a team and I'll be like what's you think of this idea and they're like I don't know I'm just I just started here I'm like no what do you think like do can you could you imagine this one being interesting so

asking lots of opinions and then you're left with three or four videos that you want to prioritize and you develop them from there what do you think people are dead wrong about with the current state of YouTube either they have the wrong belief or they completely miss something that is happening that they should be paying attention to I would say the biggest sort of hot take I have on YouTube which shouldn't be a hot take but it is based on how most people think about it is there is no meta there's no like one way

one meta to do YouTube and I feel that often times a lot of people try to like declare the New Direction content is going in like all content is moving towards storytelling or all content is moving towards longer videos or you know we've got this guy Sam suluk if you've seen him like people are like look at Sam it shows that thumbnails is dead I even saw this tweet recently where someone was like the thumbnail bubble is about to burst because like you could see like some of these thumbnails on like samsul and like other

channels are like focusing on doing less Les editing less th that design but all these things kind of fail to realize how big YouTube is 5 10 years ago there was people that focused on storytelling and made really long videos that were doing well in 5 to 10 years from now there'll be people that make two or three minute videos and don't focus on storytelling that be doing well there's just so much YouTube is so expansive that there's no one way to make content there's no one meta and yet people always just try to say

oh it's Mr beastify but even during the peak of what what you could call Mr beastify on YouTube where everyone was complaining about Mr Beast is ruin YouTube if you actually studied the trending videos and the most of our our videos on YouTube about five to 10% you could classify as Mr Beast ofi videos you know so even in this like bubble of everything being this big spectical it still only accounted for like five or 10% of the trending videos and that's only that's what the trending videos if you look across YouTube it's probably still

only one or two% of all YouTube viewership is focused on that kind of content so that's not downplaying the impact of Trends that's not downplaying the fact that yes we are moving into a a world right now where YouTube videos are getting a bit longer and people are putting in more storytelling and leaving out you know leaving the sort of really fast retention editing um out a bit more but that's still just a trend it's not the meta you know so like there's no one way to do YouTube there's no one meta things are are

super super varied to continue learning from Patty check out our first conversation where we talk even more about his process for coming up with good ideas and thumbnails it's quite lit literally the interview that changed this channel so make sure you grab your notebook [Music]