A Conversation with Sanna Marin, Prime Minister of Finland | Davos 2023

ladies and gentlemen I want to welcome you all this is a very special conversation with Santa Marin Santa Marin pleasure to have you on well thank you so much for having me um tell me what the world looks like to you right now you came in as prime minister in a very different environment you did not imagine Russia would wage war with Ukraine you were not somebody was in particular in favor of Finland becoming a part of NATO yet this has become you know where the defining aspect of your of your Prime ministership um where

are you in this journey well I was in Davos three years ago I think not maybe the same date but but about three years ago I was in Davos and and then everything was new I was just pointed as prime minister and and we didn't know what is heading us and then the pandemic came the world and and we all saw the consequences and had to live with that after that the war in Europe and now Europe is a middle of energy crisis because of Putin's war in Ukraine so lots have changed during these three

years and we have faced so many challenges our societies our citizens have had to face so many challenges and we have had to cope with this the world today is very different place than it was three years ago and right now the war is not only concerning Ukraine but actually the whole world the rule-based order is being challenged more and more authoritarian regimes are taking uh more stand in the world and the Democratic Values are challenged and this is the new reality the geopolitical reality that we are in and we have to face that not

be naive not be blue-eyed but but we really have to face what the world is today and making hard political choices also uh making this in mind so let's take that's a very good list of all the issues the world in particular Europe is facing let's take them in a sense one by one um what do you think is happening in the Russian war in Ukraine it it appears from the outside that there is something of a stale made at this point that does not seem to be as much movement Ukrainian forces are not liberating

cities as fast as they were in uh November December the Russians are dug in um are we in for a very long slog well of course we don't know yet we don't know when the war will end but we have to make sure that it will end ukrainians win I don't think that there's any other choice if Russia would win the war then we would only see a Decades of this kind of behavior in ahead of us I think other countries are looking very closely what is happening now in Ukraine and if Russia would win

then it would send a message that you can invade another country you can attack another country and you can gain from that land territory or or other things natural resources or or other things and we have to send a message that is opposite that Russia will lose it will lose the war Ukraine will push Russia back to its own territory and that also means cream it means that that Ukraine will be whole again and we together have to make sure that this will become reality but there isn't a gain of attacking another country and we

have to of course stand behind the rule-based order as well and I really worry about the challenges that we are all facing in this respect if there isn't rules in the world what can we depend on then it's only rules of of that that have strength and for example Finland is a small country it's very very important to us that we have this International rules that everybody are based to that we have the human rights that we have rule-based order that we have rule of law and that we respect those values and rules so all

that sounds to me you know it makes perfect sense particularly from where Finland is coming but there there are people who say look every war ends in some kind of a negotiation very few end up with total Victory or total defeat you know World War II may be the exception is at some point will there have to be a negotiation between Russia and Ukraine that's for Ukraine to decide we only need to support today they need our support when it comes to Arms they need more defense material and we have to give that to ukrainians

and then it monetary help they need financial help then a humanitarian Aid we also have to make sure that when people are fleeing Ukraine we are welcoming them and making sure that they have all the services that they have all all the support that they need to make their lives as normal as possible so right now we have to support Ukraine and it's them to decide what kind of negotiations they are willing to go what are the terms that they are willing to accept and our job is to support them they will decide themselves what

is Ukraine's future and we can also hope send a message of Hope for that for example Ukraine has applied the European union membership and I think when they are fulfilling the criteria we have to welcome them with open arms we have to give them another path that's it's not only a story of War it's the story after the war it's the story of hope that they can build their society with our help and that they can become prosperous Nation with a good future ahead of them with the cute future for their children so I hope

that even though we are now living in middle of War all of us in Europe and especially ukrainians that's not the only story and the only message but at the same time we have to look to the Future and hopefully there is a brighter future for Ukraine and ukrainians head ahead of them do you think it's inevitable that Ukraine will have to become a member of NATO whether whether de facto or dijour there will be security guarantees provided by the major countries of the West well of course NATO has its own rules and if a

country is in middle of War it cannot become a member of NATO of course we can look uh down to history and and ask ourselves the question should Ukraine already be a member of NATO then there wouldn't be a war in Ukraine and actually this is why also Finland and Sweden is applying a NATO membership and hopefully the ratification process will go as fast as possible also with the two countries that hadn't hasn't ratified yet we want to become member of NATO because we don't ever again want war in Finland we have been in war

with Russia before uh we have a very good military capabilities but we have we have to make sure that there is all also the threat that the Article 5 gives that if another country is is attacked others will defend and also of course Finland will defend other countries when becoming a NATO member you believe that if Ukraine was a member of NATO uh if it had already become a member there would be no war I'm sure of it if Ukraine would be a member of NATO there were wouldn't be a war now in Ukraine and

actually we also have to look uh to the year 2014 when Russia attacked Crimea should have we and I think we should have acted differently then if we would have been more strong if we would uh pose much harder sanctions then I think the results of History would have been different if we have shown strength then as European union and allies I think the story might have been very different than it's today and we have to learn from this day forward that Europe needs strength we we need more autonomous strength and we have to make

sure that we are not as dependent on authoritarian regimes that we are right now for example energy we are too dependent and we have become too dependent on Russian energy and that is causing a lot of problems everywhere in Europe right now and we have to make sure that in the future we are learning from this experience and in the future we don't build those kind of critical dependencies on authoritarian regimes but we will deepen our cooperation with our Democratic allies and partners in Finland for many years it has been a important to maintain good

relations with Russia your president uh famously was said to be the Putin's best friend in Europe and Finland saw it as being important to maintain a good relations with Russia because you have a very long and critical border with them um the situation is now very different you have a very um a hostile adversarial relationship with Russia right now is is that are you experiencing anything coming out of Russia in terms of uh troop movements cyber attacks uh intelligence spying are you seeing a new Russian attitude towards Finland well first of all I have to

say we have had functioning relations with Russia because so far geopolitical reality we are an extraordinary neighbor with Russia and and in many fields we have had to cope with that and we have had functional relationship with Russia if I I'm trying to explain the Finnish set of mind uh the most important thing for Finland and Finnish people is to make sure is to make sure that we are secure that we are safe we are secure that we are independent nation and and that there isn't uh threats that that are trading trading that so security

is very very important to Finland and if you ask Finnish citizens how willing they are to defend their own country we are ranked number one worldwide The Finnish people they are most willing to defend their own country and that's because of our history and the war with Russia that we have had so we we value security and and our independency more than anything and how to make sure that this is the reality uh so far it's been functioning relationship with Russia uh not being a member of NATO having this um this position it's the space

between yeah yeah of course we have been close partners with NATO for a long time but we haven't been a member because we have thought that this would be the most best way to secure our Nations uh security but now the reality is different now we see that that Russia is attacking another neighbor and we cannot rely on that relations anymore so we have to seek partnership elsewhere more close partnership and that's why we are applying the NATO membership East Russia opposing what kind of threats against Finland I think we have to be prepared for

anything we are not seeing a military threat acute military threat against Finland there isn't any any that kind of movement or military movement close to our borders but of course we have to be prepared for everything and anything so we are prepared for cyber attacks hybrid operations informational Warfare misinformation spread against all over the Internet and I think this is the reality for every country in Europe I think this is the reality for every nation in the world we are seeing the world um a very different place that we thought it would look like and

I think everyone has to be more prepared on different kind of for example misinformation that are spread everywhere and the best way to tackle that is sent the right information to give the people right information and also making sure that that your nation is secured and prepared for different kind of actions and incidents and at the same time I have to say also that 100 security that's not possible but you have to be prepared and think beforehand what might happen and how you could be more secure even though you might not never reach the 100

security so when when Finland and Sweden applied for NATO membership it seemed as though it was going to happen very very quickly but there has been an obstacle two nations in particular let's talk about turkey do you think turkey's objections to uh finland's membership are going to be overcome well I think their process should have been faster Finland and Sweden we both uh take all the boxes when it comes to Nato we are fully prepared to become native members and and there shouldn't be any obstacles on the way of course we are still waiting for

two countries to ratify Hungary have said that they will ratify as soon as their parliamentary period will start hopefully very soon uh turkey that's another matter and we have discussed and agreed in NATO's Madrid Summit about the steps that we will take and we have taken those steps and now we are waiting for turkey to ratify I don't see that there shouldn't be any problems and I have also personally talked with president erdogan and and he has said what he has said also in in public that that Finland isn't that that there isn't that big

of issues with Finland maybe some with Sweden uh but for our perspective it's very important that Finland and Sweden are going to Nato together because we are sharing the same security environment what if President erdogan says I'll I will vote Yes on Finland but no on Sweden well of course we cannot influence and decide for turkey but for our perspective it's very and crucially important and I think also from NATO's perspective it's crucially important that both Finland and Sweden that both countries fulfill all the boxes about the NATO membership that we are applying and we

are taking into NATO uh and and all the countries are also handling our application simultaneously so there shouldn't be any problems with that and we hope that that we will be part of NATO together do you think if this war in Ukraine lasts three four years five years um Europe has the staying power to uh to see it through to continue supporting Ukraine deterring Russia dealing with the energy issues that arise out of it I think the only descent that that crane as long as needed one year two years five years ten years 15 years

we will support Ukraine as long as needed let's talk about the energy crisis um Europe has had a warm winter and that has relieved some of the pressure um but in a longer term sense do you think that Europe is moving fast enough to wean itself off Russian energy well I think we also have now in our hands a possibility to do this the war has changed the world we were going towards the Korean transition also before making the investments in Renewables and now we only have to make those faster and we need cooperation of

course between European countries to do this we don't we are not only investing about the production of energy but also with the networks also with the with the connections between countries so so we need to invest together every country has to invest and we need also those common Investments I think this is a possibility to make that green transition a reality and the way it should be towards Renewables because we are also tackling with climate change we are also tackling with loss of biodiversity and those are the biggest threats of humankind so we need to

take this momentum as possibility to make a Greener a better future for our children but the reality right now in the short run is there is not enough green energy to at the scale that you needed and as quickly as you needed so Germany is buying coal um you're seeing a lot of liquefied natural gas it shouldn't should there be more investments in those areas as transitions or is that you know is that turning your back on the green agenda you see that it seems to me there's a dilemma here if you need the energy

now and you need it to be non-russian what is available now today is largely fossil fuels natural gas and some coal should Europe be investing more in that in the short term well of course we cannot make the interesting transition within a year uh that's a reality we cannot uh transform our whole Energy System to a Greener one within one year or two years but all the new Investments should go on Korean transition not to invest in those fields that that are not green of course we have to buy coal land and gas and oil

from the global markets to Europe right now but at the same time we have to invest in green energy for example Finland we have done that already we are doing it as we speak and we have done and versified our Energy Mix beforehand and we have been preparing for different kind of situations and that's why we are not that dependent on Russian fossil fuels and that's a very good thing and now we have to make sure that everybody else is on board as well for example we are and have been investing in in wind power

and I think if I if I remember correctly this year and those initial sources will Peak and hopefully also get the prices down quite fast um when you when you look at Europe's economic future the to the consensus here at Davos seems to be that Europe is going to enter into a recession do you agree that's a possibility and actually it looks likely that that Europe will face some kind of racism and we can of course also affect as countries what kind of racism will that be hopefully a very short one hopefully we'll go ahead

quite fastly I think right now it's also very important to invest in the future the queen transition but not only that also to digitalization also the new technologies research and development and knowledge and know how education of our citizens because we have to learn from the war not only concerning energy but also other fields and about the huge crises that we have faced during these past three years first the pandemic showed us that we are too dependent on certain markets when it comes to medical medicine and medical supplies then the in the war in Russia

the war in Ukraine and the Russian energy showed us that we are too dependent on energy we are also and we have to make sure that we are not that dependent on food or clean water and and defense material we have to make sure that we can produce the defense material that we need but not only this I think the one thing that we are not discussing enough is new technologies new technologies and the know-how and the knowledge that we will need because the future crisis is the future Wars the future conflicts will be about

new technologies we are already seeing that in in different parts of the world and we have to make sure that we are investing in these new technologies with our partners we need cooperation between Europe United States Canada and also Partners from Asia such as Japan South Korea also the inter-pacific Australia New Zealand also India we need our Democratic Partners working together making sure that we have those trading routes and and those uh Solutions when it comes to new technologies because if we are dependent on automation receives when it comes to new technologies then our economies

our societies will be jeopardized so what does that mean about Finland and Europe's relations with China because so far uh the attitude of Europe towards China has been very different from what it now is toward Russia there's been an open Embrace of China the Chinese market Chinese investment uh China has been a very important market for countries like Germany should Europe rethink its relations with China because it is an authoritarian country and there would be inevitably dependencies built if you would have just simply opened trade I think every Democratic Nation should rethink its dependencies on

China and other authoritarian regimes I think this is a reality that we are now facing it doesn't mean decoupling now it doesn't mean that it's impossible we are all too connected economically we are too connected to each other and I don't mean that we should decouple today that's not possible it's not reality but at the same time we have to make sure that we have also different sources when it comes to Natural Resources when it comes to semi conductors chips or other new technologies that we also have other trading routes that we also have other

sources for example it's very important that that Intel and others businesses and companies are investing in new semiconductor factories manufacturers in Europe in the states in Democratic countries we cannot be dependent on some sources that are under authoritarian regimes I think everybody has to rethink their their way of thinking when it comes to Authority regimes also businesses this is not only a matter of governments and countries but also private businesses private private sector Industries because if they are looking now back I think the Russian Investments that they have made have cost them a lot of

money and I think they also have to make that risk analysis not only a quarter or a year but also in 10 years term if we are now investing in all territory regimes what will happen in the future will there be a reality where our investments are being socialized for example what is happening in Russia right now it has cost a lot of money to European businesses to be in Russia you're heading into elections in Finland and if somebody would look at your government um one criticism they could make is you've run up a lot

of debt um and other European countries have as well but the level of debt was sustainable in a world of very low interest rates but if interest rates stay high uh will it could it not be said that you've you have left a legacy that is going to be very hard to navigate if the interest rates stay high if interest on the debt stays very high I think we have to take death very seriously not only in Finland but Europe and elsewhere uh I think we are seeing Europe where many countries has a lot of

debt Finland is in the middle our debt when you compare it to gdps about 70 percent it's not that high compared to many other countries and I really worry about the situation in Europe right now where there are many countries that have a lot of depth and also a lot of costs because of that and that is a threat to all of Europe together because we are so connected we are sharing the single Market we are sharing common economies we are in the same Eurozone with many countries so so of course this is a serious

matter for all of us in Finland we have taken a lot of that like many other countries because of the pandemic we have supported our citizens our businesses and making sure that the unemployment doesn't raise and actually when you look at the numbers right now Finland is now in very good shape when you look at employment and for example we are in 75 percent of employment and that was our Target when we started as a government to raise that to 75 percent when we have um we have made that uh reality uh and also another

fields we have a lot of possibilities but the economic situation that is something that we also have to take very seriously and making sure that in the future our economies and our public economies is uh better than it is now I know that you don't like to talk about your role as a very young woman in in this very important job and we don't have it go there and ask you where but but there is a public fascination with it so let me ask you this do you think that you have done things uh you

you have furthered uh a women's agenda or or certain issues that you understood perhaps better than than others might has there been some part of of that that you look back on uh and see as a as a legacy well I think that and not only think most of my time has gone with the major crises that we have faced and this would have been the same situation whether there would have been a male prime minister in in Finland or not so so no my gender or my age hasn't affected that much about the agenda

that we all have to uh face during these years for Finland gender equality has always been very important globally but also internally because we are a small nation a nation of 5.5 million people and we couldn't cope if we wouldn't use all of the resources of all of our people and we need everybody on board every gender in any every generation we need everyone on board to making sure that Finland will cope and and drive in the future and I think also globally we are missing a opportunity for a better future if we are neglecting

that the women's participation whether it's in private sector or public sector in political life I need I think we need everybody on board women men different genders and different Generations I think everybody has a perspective and I think when we're listening to everyone we are making the best decisions all right I have time for a little bit of uh of uh q a um in a kind of only in Davos moment we do have the former prime minister of Finland Alex um here with do you have something you want to add Alex um Alex will

only say Finland is the best country in the world thank you very much Fareed and congratulations son perhaps a personal question um because we've been a little bit in the same boat in in perhaps to a certain extent changing the institution of a prime minister how have you coped with it personally because I felt that at times the personal attacks that that were involved in in the day-to-day politics they at least drove me down or or gave me a few sleepless nights but in my mind you've been coping with it extremely well what's your defense

mechanism well I really don't like this political atmosphere I think you you can relate I don't like the political atmosphere when we are focusing about the persons we are focusing about the individual making the decisions not the decisions itself or the political agendas I think I want the politics because because I wanted to change the worlds I didn't want the politics because I wanted to be a politician I wanted to change the world a better place and I think we are discussing too little about the matters about the agenda about the values that we stand

behind and we are focusing and as when I say we we I'm talking about the media we are focusing too much on the individuals and their personal uh appearances or looks or or how they speak or how they act and are they interesting or not I don't think that matters at all I think that matter matters and we should focus on that and how do I cope I do sports like you do and and I'm very grateful that I have a uh good uh that it doesn't affect my sleep that I sleep well even though

there are big crises or or personal turbulence because of the media you've been clever enough not to not to wear your shorts in public the way that uh Alex did actually have yeah and been photographed with it and even shorter yeah thank you my name is Publix I'm a Chilean journalist and ygl alumna so the world economic Forum last report shows that it is going to take 151 years to achieve gender parity if we continue doing the same things we're doing now so as a as an icon a global icon in in gender parity issues

what do you think should be done now to change those terrible numbers thank you I don't have an answer to that I agree that in this route that we are on it will take too long time it will take too long time but I cannot personally make decisions behalf of everyone I think gender equality is a serious matter and I can also see and we can also see that it's been challenged more and more worldwide for example if we look at the situation in Iran or Afghanistan that the situation is terrible it should it's just

terrible and we need to do more AS Global Community to tackle that pushback against pushback so so we need to do more but how to reach that reality where gender wouldn't matter I don't know when we will be there I think we only have to make sure that we are fighting every day but we are not taking granted about that progress that we have made that we have to fight for every day for our values gender equality human rights uh rule of law these are not matters that are given to us they are matters that

that we fight for and hopefully every day and hopefully the world will become a better place sometime that is as much time as we have Center pleasure to have you thank you thank you so much it is my pleasure