Western Civilization Is Already Dead - with Paul Kingsnorth

but I have a feeling that the West itself needs to die in fact I think it may already have died actually this thing we call the West is a sacrifice and is being sacrificed so that the plant can die so the seeds can grow exactly as you were talking earlier right you don't get the growth without the sacrifice and I think we've got to such a point where we have created a culture that is irreligious and Babylon likee and topheavy and it's just fading away and I don't mean that there should be a giant catastrophe

or we should destroy it or anything like that I just think that it's dying if it's not already gone and we have to let that happen because it's not going to be stoppable at this point and instead of doing that instead of like fighting to protect x y and Zed aspects of the super structure we can go back to the root of the culture and write about that instead and build that and protect that so it's not an All or Nothing situation we don't say oh the West is in trouble let's let everything burn like

the Joker you know but at the same time we don't say let's get out there and fight for our right to I don't know form trans corporations and and have economic growth forever and ever and mine the asteroids with Ellen musk right that's not anything to do with what we're talking about why don't we step back from that battle at the moment which is going on anyway and go back to Our Roots which we'll find in those stories let's tell the stories of the Saints let's tell the fairy tales and you let's go and write

about how Christianity manifests in the landscape and let's do that not with a plan in mind that this is going to build a civilization but just because we think it's the thing we need to do and then it will then things will happen you [Music] know this is Jonathan Pedro welcome to the symbolic [Applause] World hello everyone I am here with Paul kingsnorth I think everyone who watches these uh videos knows who Paul is you know we've had been having discussions for a few years now and uh recently Paul did a a talk at first

things which was very poignant it was a lot of people were very touched by his talk where he he really criticized the dangers of civilizational Christianity and uh you know the dangers of people who who put civilization first and see Christianity in some ways as a as a tool to get there and I felt called by that you know because you know because of my involvement with Arc because of my discussion with Jordan Peterson and and a bunch of other people and so I thought be a good idea to talk about it with uh with

Paul and kind of see yeah and kind of explore his ideas and see where we where we touch and where we don't on these on these questions so Paul thanks for talking to me yeah well thanks for the invitation it's always good to be back yes and so maybe you could start with just obviously people can watch the talk we'll link it in the in the in the uh the the description also the written version of it maybe you can give a basic synthesis of what it is that that you were trying to get across

and then we can start the discussion yeah well so I was invited to give the arasmus lecture of First Things um and I to be honest when I was invited I'd never heard of the arasmus lecture so I went and looked out what it was and I discovered to my horror that had been delivered by any number of eminent theologians for decades including the the former Pope Benedict the 16th and I thought they must have made a mistake um I almost didn't go honestly because it was um I didn't think I was up to it

but they asked me to do it so I said okay well I'm going to try and say say something that I think is necessary and really the essence of the talk um which was designed to be provocative um that was the point not for the sake of it but just because I think it was something that really needed to be saying something that been itching me for a long time was very much as you'd said in the introduction I can see at the moment around us in Western Society a movement coalescing of what we might

call civilization or Christians and what this is It's a movement of people who I think quite correctly can see that Western culture is fragmenting and is spiritually empty and you know all of the things that you talk about on your Channel all the things I write about probably a lot of your readers would agree with even if we might have different understandings of what's going on and people look at this and they say what's wrong with the culture why are things falling apart why do they not hold together why do things seem to be collapsing

and they come to the conclusion which I think is correct I I agree with it that there's a spirit spiritual void at the heart of the culture uh I think a culture is fundamentally a spiritual creation it's taken me about 50 years to realize that but I think that that's how it works so if we agree that there's such a thing as as Western culture then we have to ask ourselves what is it and realistically it's it's what used to be Christendom which is the domain of the western church the the Roman Church and so

people then from that conclusion they leap to from that from that um observation they leap to a conclusion which is that if this used to be a Christian culture then we need to revive Christianity to defend or promote or rejuvenate the culture but they start in the wrong place they start with the assumption that Christianity is some sort of tool some sort of social or cultural tool which we can use to defend the culture fight the woke people fight the Muslims fight the Russians the Chinese whoever we want to fight and get our culture back

to some form that it used to be in or should be in in the future and I think it's dangerous because it's precisely the wrong way around I think the Western culture is certainly um is certainly a manifestation of Christianity it absolutely was at the core of the culture that's not the only thing that it comes from but it's the spiritual core and has been for centuries but not because people set out to build a civilization with Christianity but because they tried to follow Christ and around them grew a culture which then became a civilization

For Better or For Worse and we can argue about whether it was good or bad and I think that exactly the wrong thing is going on here people are starting in the wrong place they're saying I want a certain type of civilization uh so we should use the cross as a sword to build it and the second thing I went on to say was if we actually step back and look at the values of of modern civilization or indeed all civilization if we want to be really controversial can we actually say that they're Christian at

all can we really if we look at and one thing I did in the talk is I listed the seven deadly sins and I looked at the fact that I think that our culture is based today in in Western capitalist modernity on basically flaming them all for profit and I think that's a good case to be made I don't think if Christ came and looked at our culture today he'd say oh well this is exactly what I had in mind right he he would not and could we really in fact say that any giant centralized

culture based on um accumulation and wealth creation and forc labor and all the rest of it is Christian at all um regardless of what you think about that the fundamental thing I was trying to say was that we have to I think head off at the past this attempt to use the Christian way as a tool to defend or promote a certain type of culture because I think that it's exceptionally dangerous and it's going to do damage to Christianity and probably to the culture as well no I think I think that definitely your critique falls

in the right time and you know in the moment when we do are seeing this shift that's happening there are more and more people that are either moving explicitly towards Christianity or at least are not hostile to it in the ways that they were before and uh and and some of these characters are not are not particularly are not Christian themselves and so it's fascinating because when I watch the talk I thought I really agree with you for 50% I think that's what I wrote in the email I think like 50% you said I completely

completely agree with you in the sense that and I reread your text again and I realized I actually agree with you more than 50% uh 50% was more like the the the the the critique of of what you said um I I definitely agree with you I maybe I could even say that I have the sense in which when CHR Christ talks of antichrist this is what he's talking about is in some way something which is within Christianity which is out of Christianity but is using Christ for means that are different than than for the

glory of God or for the transformation of of of souls you know and so you have the story of um Simon the Magician for example right there in Acts which is in some ways an example of that which is Simon the Magician wants Christ so he can you know make Miracles and and you know and uh and impress everyone and that is exactly the opposite and it's not that the apostles don't make Miracles it's that their miracles are rooted in a true true faith and a true willingness to sacrifice for the highest thing and so

I think that I see that even if you look at the images in Revelation you have like these two images of civilization you have one which is the Beast the Beast and the and I think that's exactly what you're describing both in terms of this tendency to move explicitly towards our passions in any way the way the Beast is described is very much in the way you describe in your own text the criticism of civilization saying it's greed it's exchange it's love it's all these things that are kind of wrapped into one and everybody is

celebrating this because it it's giving her giving them what they want and then at the same time the machine which is on which is hiding under the which is basically these crazy systems of control that set themselves up in the moment when we are basically giving ourselves to our passions you know and to facilitate that as well and so I see that and then I also see this other image which is the image of the Heavenly Jerusalem as and that may that's why I said 50/50 is because I see these two images as two possibilities

of what is Downstream from Christ um but no matter what I agree that to have the Heavenly Jerusalem it's not you don't try to get the Heavenly Jerusalem you you you try to see the son of man you try to to live in the light you know that the lamb provides uh and then Downstream from that you do have some image of civilization and that's maybe the question I have for you is that because you're right you do push pretty radically in your in your talk you know it's like you say all civilization is is

is uh is wrong and I'm thinking it seems though that there's like the wheat and the chaff in Civilization kind of like what Christ describes and that for example our civilization for all its evil and I totally agree with that is probably the civilization in which the fewest people die of hunger that has ever existed in the history of humanity right it's it's we have another type of Despair which is more kind of spiritual despair uh but but that's a real thing it's a real thing that that we have this virtue of taking care of

the poor that's part of the system anyways I'm talked a lot but so maybe I set you up with these two opposites and I want to know what you think about that hello everyone this is Annie Crawford inviting you to join me this January for a symbolic World reading of till we have faces the book CS Lewis calls Far and Away the best I've written till we have faces is Lewis's modern telling of the myth of cupid and psyche a mysterious tale of dark idolatry classical Enlightenment and the shocking discovery of true religious Vision in

our 4-week online course together we'll explore what CS Lewis has to show us about the nature of myth the dangers of love the limits of reason and the secrets of genuine re-enchantment this is a book an author and a class you won't want to miss yeah I think it's really interesting so I mean I have a long history of complaining about civilization that's the first thing I don't I don't want to try and you know I've made a career out of it and uh I don't want to I don't want to be suggesting that that

luckily Jesus agrees with me um because that's that wasn't the point I mean one of the things I did want to do in the talk with seriousness and one of the reasons I wanted to give it is I didn't want to just stand up there and attack people I I'm actually looking at myself quite a lot of the time um because if we look at the way Christ tells us to live in the gospels it's not the way I'm living right that's the reality of it and the more Christian I become the more the more

Christ is sort of inside me bashing away and CH churning things around the more that becomes painfully apparent and so that's the Paradox we're all living in as Christians um if I look at the things we're told to do in terms of wealth and power and resisting evil or not resisting evil it's it's not only the opposite of what our civilization tells us to do is pretty much the opposite of what I do a lot of the time so and I did try and say that a couple of times so I don't want I don't

want to give the impression that I'm sort of preaching as a as a holy man because I'm really not I mean it's a challenge right so we are living in a a top- down machine civilization whatever you want to call it there we are it's not going away it's existed for 10,000 years now of course it gives us good material things there's no doubt about that and that's why we like it and and people do like it um the question is what the costs are and that's always the question um what's Downstream of all the

good stuff we get what's literally Downstream sometimes in the rivers and in the destruction of the forests and the loss of the culture and all the things that we can see happening right so you never get anything for free you do get your good stuff but you get a lot of bad stuff as well and that's that's just that's just life um so there's not a lot to be gained just from saying civilization is bad and we should we should not live in it because we do there's no getting away from it that's where we

are the question is what kind of values as Christians we're actually supposed to be pursuing that's my question and as I say it's a personal question for me and for us and for the culture we live in I can't escape the fact when I the more I read of the church fathers the more I read of the the monastic Saints the more I read of the falia the more I read of the gospels and it's it's very very difficult to you have to try very hard to escape the fact that there is a clear division

between what Christ calls the world and what he calls the kingdom and there's no doubt about it and he says very clearly I've called you out of the world and because I've called you out of the world you're going to be hated by the values of the world world the world being the passions that build the the the kind of things that you're just talking about um Babylon as the kind of manifestation of the great corrupt Global city um and interestingly in the Book of Revelation when when Babylon is that is most corrupted you hear

this voice from the heaven don't you you hear Christ and and he says come out of her my people the really interesting thought what are you supposed to do with Babylon you're supposed to leave um because Babylon is corrupt and the Heavenly Jerusalem is coming instead so we've got this tension all the time and the whole the whole of Christianity seems to me like a like a tension I I wrote about it recently as as feeling like a kind of Zen Cohen that you're walking around all the time just going what is this it's not

it's not a logical system here so of course there are all these contradictions intentions in it but the question becomes what does a Christian Life look like and therefore what does a Christian culture look like and therefore how should we live that and there might be a lot of answers to that um and you can only really try and do it by living it as many people have done for 2,000 years but I'm pretty sure it doesn't look like modern civilization and so as Christians obviously we're living in Babylon so there we are we have

to deal with that um but if we start saying that the values of Babylon are actually really Christian values and we have to defend them that's where we're in trouble so the question for me seems to be and I am stumbling around here because this is I'm not a theologian or or a saint or a bishop I'm somebody trying to work this out as I go along the question seems to be not how shall we defend all the Glorious values of modernity and wealth creation and profit and and interestingly the people who talk like this

seem to me often to be defending Enlightenment values actually they're defending uh liberalism and and democracy and civil and and and capitalism and wealth creation and these may or may not be good things I'm not saying they're bad things but they're not fundamentally Christian things and they're not anti-christian either necessarily but they're very modern values so what are we doing are we trying to live as Christians and in a in a Christian culture and what would that look like and how different would it look like from the thing that we are doing here and I

think I think if we confuse the values of modern capitalist Progressive modernity with the gospel I think we're in a real we're in a real State because they don't seem to Bear any resemblance to each other yeah no I think I think you I think you I think I I agree with you one of the patterns that I see in scripture and you can tell me what you think about about this is I see exactly in some ways what you describe so in the Bible civilization is the the comes down from Cain you know and

so you have the fall and then Cain founds a city and then his descendants found pretty much everything that we consider civilization the Arts music and then technology architecture you know ways of living in the world and then you have this intimation that violence increases right so when you get to to uh to lamech it basically this sense that you know the violence has increased 70 fold you know that this is this this extremely violent society and that it'll bring about the the flood it will'll bring about destruction and so one of the interesting thing

God seems to do in scripture is that he seems to take the image of the city and the image of the civilization technology and all of that and then he he puts it in the plan of the temple and the Tabernacle so he gives from Heaven he gives the plan of the Tabernacle to uh a holy ab and bezel in order to build this thing and the way that he talks about a holy and bezel is in similar ways that is talked about tubalcain that is they're artisans in the sense of of the of C's

descendants so the vision that I see in scripture is that Civilization always seems to get out of control and be exactly what you're saying and that in fact some ways it's the spark it's a sinful spark and then God is redeeming it constantly in the story uh and the ultimate image of that is of course the Heavenly Jerusalem but the idea would be I think is that there should be intimations of that in the story as we move forward there should be moments where we have intimations of that you know for example Christians have believed

that the conversion of Constantine was one of those moments where it's not a perfect thing it's not like the Heavenly Jerusalem comes down from heaven but that in the conversion of the Roman Empire and the transformation of some of the values that underlied the Roman the Roman Empire you know like like infanticide and and uh chatt slavery and all the all the the the dark aspect of the Roman Empire were being transformed not completely transformed not fully but that there was this this motion and so that is something that I kind of see happen and

so I I'm not close to I do agree about everything you said about our our Civilization now but I I get the sense that it doesn't mean that it's all it's all evil that there has to be something that God can redeem and I'm not sure ex like when we when we talk about AI you know what I think about AI it's like I'm looking at it seeing this like demon-possessed you know thing coming towards us but I'm thinking is like I'm always asking myself is it possible for these things to be redeemed I'm not

sure how but I see the Heavenly Jerusalem as that image because in the Heavenly Jerusalem you have this you actually have a b top down and bottom up situation where that Heavenly jerusem comes down from heaven and then it says that the kings of all the nation s bring their Glory into the Heavenly Jerusalem and so what it suggests is that the Nations have a glory that is can be offered up to God it's not all of it not all of their behavior not everything about them but that there's something about the nation that can

become a proper offering to God uh and so anyways I wanted to see what you think about about that it's really interesting isn't it so I'm always very very conflicted on the on the conversion of the Roman Empire because the question is how much did the Christians convert the Romans and how much did the Romans convert the Christians into Romans and imperialists and actually probably a bit of both actually um but anyway that was that was a long time ago so that was what happened it's so there were these two images in the in in

Revelation there's Babylon the Earthly basically the the the the Civilized decadence of the humans and then as you say there is the Heavenly Jerusalem which is given by God it comes down um and so I think there's really something in what you're saying and I'm thinking about this a lot so I I think humans have to build things and make things that's what we do um so the way I see this you can tell me if you think this is completely off beam if you if you look at the if you look at Genesis there

seems to be only one picture in the whole of the Bible of God creating the Divine Kingdom and it's when he creates the Heaven and Earth and then he creates a garden and he puts us in this Garden and we're effectively Divine gardeners and our job is to to name the animals to be gardeners and to contemplate God so we're not living in a Wilderness we're living in a garden it's not the same thing with it's a created thing but we have a task and we choose instead of fulfilling the task of contemplating God until

presumably we're ready to eat the fruit of these trees which hopefully we will be so that we can share in God's work we decide to listen to The Serpent who says well why didn't you become Gods yourself quickly because you don't need to listen to God you can do it yourself you can have the power and so we do that and then we have to leave the garden and the communion is broken we can't contemplate God anymore we can't even see God we're on this Earth and it's Fallen but it's not evil it's Fallen um

and we're in it and we have to build now because on the earth if you don't build if you don't wear clothes if you don't defend yourself against tigers you're going to get eaten pretty quickly because you're not in the Garden of Eden anymore right because in the garden in the state we're actually created to be in we're also in communion with all the creatures they don't hate us I mean as an aside one of the stories one of the projects I'm working on at the moment is is my book of wild Saints and I'm

really really fascinated by Saints who live in Wild places and end up with a relationship to creatures which is like the relationship we had in EG so it's possible to get back there on this earth right so this that's what we're supposed to be like in harmony with Earth in harmony with God in harmony with creatures and we can't be like that because we're fallen so we have to build and it seems as you say that we keep building and building and building and then because we're not building towards God we're trying to be Gods

instead the technologies that we use and the cities that we build end up being corrupted all the time because we're not pointing them in the right direction so the question becomes who are we actually supposed to be serving we're supposed to be serving God if you build whilst serving God if you build reasonably within limits while serving God you can create Beauty and holy things you can create a great Cathedral you can create you know any number of you can create an icon you can build a house that you can live in that's modest and

then you you can pray and eat and do the things you do in the house but all the time we're endlessly being corrupted the whole story of the Bible the whole story of human history is humans effectively continuing to try and follow the path that the serpent laid down instead of the path of God and when you use technology and civiliz and your building techniques and our technological Brilliance to serve the serpent rather than God you end up with Babylon so that seems to be what happens repeatedly it doesn't but I think you're right it

doesn't follow from that that everything is evil and that we have nothing to offer God and therefore we can't build anything we have to build something we're technological animals we can't live without creating if we didn't create we'd be we'd be dead meat when it when it snowed so this is this you know we're not Bears we don't have Savage teeth and furry coats we have to do this our our our our Brilliance and our and our and our terrible um our terrible nature as well is is in technology so if you build technology to

serve the serpent which means that effectively we are trying to be as Gods because that's the offer then you end up with AI like you said right an AI is us trying to create gods and effectively trying to turn ourselves as the transhumanists want into Immortal beings who live on other planets colonize the universe and effectively literally be Gods I mean these people in Silicon Valley are quite happy to to say this openly they're trying to make God they talk about it all the time so it seems to me that as you say you've got

these two points of light you can serve God and you can try and and walk your way back towards God which is what a Christian Life is supposed to be we're looking for theosis we're trying to become Saints I mean I'm I can't imagine that happening to me but you know anything Miracles can happen this is what we're supposed to do this is the story we're supposed to walk towards sainthood and use our techniques and our abilities within limits and reason to do that or we can keep in the offer of the serpent which is

what we perpetually do and I think that once you get to the stage this would be my critique I suppose once you get to the stage of having this giant topheavy technological civilization here inevitably the momentum is towards the serpent that's what you end up it doesn't mean that within it we can't serve God and that we have nothing to offer and that we can't build Christian cultures within it because we can I think the monastic movements do that I think Christian communities do that is in individual Christians in the culture serving the poor can

do that we have to do that actually but I think that the the machine once it gets to this level if you like seems to be uh seems to be the Serpent's doing yeah that seems that that there is a almost like an inevitable thing that's that's moving towards that you know in the uh in Revelation It ultimately says that the Beast kills the you know and that to me is that image of in some ways the machine basically clamping back down it's like oh you know and fun and strangely I mean it's funny cuz

it actually it's something that you can experience personally too it's like when you give yourself to your passion into your sins and then you think that this is freedom all of the sudden you realize no it's like it's a monster that's enslaving you and that it's there's no Freedom there anymore and so that image of the Beast killing the it's such a powerful such a powerful image and in the in the image of the Heavenly Jerusalem you know it's it seems like it's a rightly ordered in the way that you said because in the center

of the city is the garden you know you have the tree and the Water of Life that's in the Middle with the lamb and the son of man which is the light that that is shining on the city uh but then on the edge of the city you do have stones and it's important to understand for this biblical symbolism what that is referring to the fact that they are carved stones that like uh you know different different metals and Stones is important to understand that it is technification that's what it represents that's why the Tower

of Babel is made of stones that's why you know the the the idols were made of gold like all of these things are images of human making in their in civilizational making King so you have this order where because the garden is in the center then the city becomes glorious like a jewel right it's shining with all this this beauty uh and so I think that that gives me hope you know that it it does mean that we it doesn't me it means that the things we do can be offered to God now I don't

know like you said in some ways some of those are not my problem like there's some things that I I struggle to understand how they can be offered up like AI for example at this moment it's not easy to see how how ultimately it's going to to serve um and also the other thing I wanted to say is that that also seems to be true in in a civilizational way what I see in Christian the best moments of Christian civilization is that the monk or the Marty who gives himself sacrifices himself for Christ who lives

every he lives in a way that really reflects what Christ is saying that ironically that yields civilization like it yields families like it's like when a lot of people say well if everybody lived the way Jesus says then every there would be no people right if we were all like living as monks up on the mountain and then all the stics or whatever the the civilization would stop but that's not what happens there's a normal hierarchy that sets itself up where these characters become like beacons and in their sacrifice it yields f families with 10

kids and you know and and this kind of abundance at the at the the bottom but again the mistake is to think that that's the that that we can weaponize that that we can make it happen I think that's the key I think that's the key so it seems to me that the root of Christian culture is Christians right actual Christians who are not not not probably people like me who say we're Christians and technically are but people actually living like Christians and as you say there's this Paradox again there's that Christian Cohen again right

this weird Paradox where the first should be last and the last shall be first and God's wisdom is not the wisdom of the world and Christ is always saying these things that make absolutely no sense at all in worldly terms and you think I can't live like that what is he even talking about and so did most of his followers right obviously they leave him before the end he only ends up with 12 people after he's told them to drink his blood and eat his body most of them say he's crazy off they go because

it makes no sense in the world's terms and yet when these people do these things that make no sense in the world's terms they end up building a culture almost by accident because but if they'd set out to do that it would have been a disaster if you'd set out to say right let's build a Christian civilization everyone and let's make it look like this and and and we're going to have this technology and these tools and it's we're going to live this way Christian civil there's there's a quote I used in the talk it's

from Hillary white the the the liturgical artist and she said Christian civilization is a secondary fruit of Christian mysticism and I thought that was exactly what was going on it's you know the desert fathers St Anthony creates the entire monastic Movement by accident because he wants to try and live the way Christ told him to live and so he gives everything away and goes off to live in a tomb which is certifiable behavior you know if you did it today they'd section you but that that leads to the Christian monastic movement but not because he

intended it to because he intended to try and follow Christ so it's as if it's that if you actually make the sacrifice and live with that intense humility things happen because God makes them happen that's how it seems to me whereas if you try with your own will to create some kind of civilization with a cross painted on it you end up with the opposite because the devil is the prince of this world which is which is another thing that keeps popping up in the gospels all the time you know the devil says this world

has been given over to me so all the worldly projects if they're not if they don't come from this kind of radical renunciation that Christ teaches they end up being the devil's projects that's how it seems so the weird Paradox is we have to give everything away give everything up and try to live in this mendicant way and then God gives us what we need to build a culture that's how it seems and as I say then I I just keep going around this going around in my head because I'm not living like that so

I don't know what that means but it's this is this is the challenge it seems to be that seems to be the way it works I think I mean I I think that you're absolutely right and we can find many examples in the Bible but also in the tradition like there there's an intering interesting Paradox even in the case of the life of St Anthony which is is that we always have to remember that the person who wrote the life of St Anthony is is St aanus right St aanus who under the protection of Constantine

basically you know defended homos as the as the Orthodox position and and and and the council that basically you know structured the way that Christians think today so I'm not saying that that it's that it's Constantine that led the council and the the fathers were really cautious about that because one of things we don't realize is that that at the very first Council there was a chair you know if you know the story there was a there was a throne in absentia for Constantine because he didn't go to the council all the time so there

was like this throne in absentia for Constantine and that really bothered some of the fathers and so in during the second Council they put the gospel on the throne and it was a way to say no it's like it's actually Christ that's ruling over this Council so this tension right it was there in the sense and maybe that is in best the best way to understand what it is the best aspect of what Constantine did for example which is that he didn't we hope that he didn't direct uh he didn't direct the the the theological

thought but he was able to create a frame around it and protect those that were doing it you know so you can imagine that the good a role of one of the roles of the king would be to protect the monastery you know because the monks don't protect themselves and so it's like oh you guys sacrifice yourselves completely live that way and I'm going to be Downstream from you and I'm going to you know if I can I'll stop the PIR pirates from coming to from coming to kill you and so it's like this weird

there there's a there's a story my brother told me this story a long time ago it's actually is related to uh to Zen it was this story of these two Kung Fu swords and I forget the name of the sword sorry for people watching but that there were these two swords and like the greatest sword that was in the Kung Fu world was a sword that if you put the sword in water all the pieces twigs and pieces of of like of grass would avoid the sword and so like you put the sword in water

and then everything that's floting the water would just go around it and avoid it and the second most powerful sword was a sword that when you put it in the water all the Twigs would come and break against the sword and so there's this this idea that in some ways inaction yields action but it has to be in the right order right it's like there is room for kings that defend people but they have to be rooted in and they have to be rooted in something true something higher than them or else it just becomes

or else it just becomes power and just becomes you know whatever yeah yeah no it's very true I mean there's there's this always this tension right at the heart of Christianity and and every other faith that I know of as well it's always the same thing um what are you going to do about the world being full of violence because it is full of violence um how do you actually respond to that and Christ tells you not to resist evil um and that's and you know it's it's it's very difficult to understand how to live

that that's the greatest for me that's the greatest Challenge and yeah you're right about that I mean it's what do you do with the Kings the Kings aren't going anywhere so do you sacralize the Kings or do you let the Kings Rampage around and this is you know that's that's always the Paradox but again that that still comes from that mysticism doesn't it because the monastics get to the point and the church gets to the point where the king becomes interested in them you know it's a very interesting question to me why why did Constantine

want to become Christian why was he suddenly interested in this religion what's going on there um it's offering him something through what it's doing um yeah because of the way that it's not because it's giving him power or there's something about these people and this faith that is attracting even the Roman Emperor you know so because they've been Christians um and so it's like I said at the end of the tried to say at the end of the talk it's like if we want a Christian culture back because we haven't got one now we just

have to try and live like humble Christians and then it will happen in God's time it's not that we you know a some people reacting to the talk of said Well Kings North thinks we should just do nothing and let the world burn that's a critique I get quite a lot and I can understand it but it's not the point it's not there there's no option to do nothing you know we're all doing something here we are doing a thing right now there's no the question is what you do you know building a monastery is

doing something living in a Christian household is doing something writing a book is doing something running the symbolic world is doing something we're all doing things um it's a question of what we're doing and and then if we just try to do them with that attempt to approach that Christian humility then I think things happen from there things grow out from there that's how Christian cultures get built um because people are at their best people are attracted to Christians at their worst people are repelled by Christians right but at their best people are attracted to

Christians and we've come out of a period in our culture where people have become very repelled by Christians partly because of things the church has definitely actually done and partly because of the kind of the whole campaign of modernity is against God and against the Christian Church which has been made a villain in in in any number of things but for whatever reason the church has been turned into a villain and so what do you do about that well you have to just again the more corrupt and decadent and horrible the culture gets the more

actual Christians are going to be really attractive because they are when you know if you ever meet a holy person you're really drawn towards them you can sense it and you want to go there and you want to be with that person and and that's what changes the world is seems to me that kind of Holiness I agree I another image that comes to me is the image of the seed that Christ uses himself you know you know he makes it clear that in order for any fruit to grow the origin of that is death

like the seed has to die if the seed if the seed does not die then it doesn't produce fruit and I think that that's some ways the image it's like you can't fake that you can't say well I just want the fruit I don't want to die well that's not going to happen Jesus says die like that's putting you know that skin in the game that's not a that's not something that you can do uh utilit with utility like just with utilitarian thinking it actually is has to be a real self-sacrifice because you you're aimed

at the highest thing and then out of that the fruit will be communion and etc etc that comes out of it and you know and I think that and I think a lot of the people maybe that listen to The Talk were afraid in some way that you were because we have you know radical anabaptist types who who will take what you say and push it very very far where they they obviously don't like any type of structure they think all structure is evil that that that church buildings are evil in themselves you know that

kind of like radical idea that that even the the the the the building of beautiful of beautiful things is is is horrible just for all all those reasons but that's not what I hear from you you know there's there's a of Justinian a beautiful story of Justinian where Justinian when he built haa Sophia he wanted to make the doors of the I think it was the doors of either the church or of the yakin estasis he wanted to make them into pure gold and the patriarch of Constantinople said he said okay you can make them

out of pure gold but if there's just one beggar left in Constantinople after you've done that you'll have to you'll have to have account for that like you'll have to account for that and so because of that he didn't make them gold I think he made them a lesser like silver or something like a lesser metal because he he there was this tension like exactly the tension that you're saying it's like he's like yes it's okay to make a beautiful thing for God but it and St John chrisom has similar statements where he's like give

to the poor and then if there's gold left make gold chandeliers well this is it yeah John gazam is a great example of this I mean he's he was so incredibly radical in his preaching that he ended up being you know exiled and and effectively condemned um because he focused on the rich including the empress which out to be a bad idea but he was you know he was being a Christian and he was a bishop and he was you know I'm an Orthodox Christian like you so you know I'm I'm not in a position

to that I want to start attacking institutions or buildings because if I did I wouldn't be Orthodox you need to live in that tension but the buildings that the buildings have to serve God and as you say it seems to be a pretty good deal that you're allowed to have a golden door when you fed the poor but not before right because this is this is this is the point of the whole thing um it's when I was on Mount Athos a year or two ago I visited Elder pesos his cell I don't know if

you ever been there but no um it's a tiny little house and um it has two rooms in it one room was his bedroom and the other room was a tiny little church with a tiny little icon aasis in and you can go into this room now and see it and you know you can go into glorious Orthodox Cathedrals and they're covered in these enormous icons and they very stunning and and Elder peso's church is just a tiny little wooden thing and the only two icons he's got are ones that he drew himself because he

had a vision of Christ and he met met Mary the theotokos and he drew what they both looked like and they almost looked like child's drawings and then he just pinned them up on the wood and that was one of the most beautiful churches I've ever seen so there's a form of beauty that can be done very simply it's not a question of you know we don't have to go to the extreme where either we're building gold churches everywhere or where all building is evil and and we must do nothing again it comes down to

that question of to me same question we're asking with technology who does this serve and what are my limits and am I doing this aesthetically in in fear of God and in love of God after I fed the poor or am I just effectively following the path of civilization and it's like there's a very fine line there and if you fall over that line then suddenly your church isn't very different to the skyscraper and there's Beggars sitting on the steps and then you know Jesus is going to come and point out exactly what what the

problem there is just as he did in the temple um so it's it's always that fine line like I said I don't think you can live in this world without building and there's and you have to build to the glory of God and because I'm Orthodox and this is why I became Orthodox one reason I think we need the church we need the structures we need the teaching we need the tradition otherwise we get the kind of craziness of 10,000 Protestant sects a minute popping up in America because no one can agree on what the

Bible means you know and and so I I believe in that but it's like I think you need always a self-correcting mechanism all the time and that's what I think the monastics often are their best you know the monastics and the Hermits and the and the and the the the poor Christians who are trying to live a sinful life always there correcting the emperor the emperor needs them otherwise otherwise he's just another Emperor yeah and there's always that I don't know whether you can ever it's funny what you said is that's exactly what I see

that's the role that I see that you're playing too like I when I saw the talk I thought right away I thought this is this is perfect like this is actually the right call that we need to remind ourselves why we're doing what we're doing or whatever it is we're doing to remember what it is and to be careful of the dangers you know and and you know that in some ways I'm far more in the world of cultural Christians you know uh that I found myself in that world and I and I feel that

I feel the attention too I'm always asking myself and that's why I was attracted to what you said I'm like I'm always asking myself okay what is this serving you know and it's hard by the way and you probably have an similar experience you know you you make these videos you get attention you get likes you get you know you get people supporting what you're doing and so it's like the man the the the the Temptation is right there all the time constantly build your brand build your brand exactly yeah and so it's like you

need but it's like it's like you need a banner right you need a symbolic World banner and so might as well make it beautiful and then then what like does it yeah it's a it's a it's definitely something that that I struggle with but it's also I think it's very useful and very uh powerful that we're reminded of that constantly like just remember remember remember why you're doing what you're doing you know and remember your first love too that's a good way of thinking about it is that even though at the outset the things that

sparked some of the things we're doing might have been pure doesn't mean that it remains that way all the time sometimes we can get kind of Twisted and turned away so what's really interesting is how easy is to make Idols of things really easily and it's really easy to make an idol of Jesus it's really easy to make an idol of the church it's just and and and to create a shape for them that happens to suit you just like it's really easy to create an idol for the culture you know there's a Chris quote

from Christopher lash I keep using in my writing where he says God not culture is the only appropriate focus of your of your worship and it's really really easy people are always getting attached to their cultures which is completely normal right of course we're attached to our cultures we we come from a place we like that place we don't want it to be destroyed we have protective feelings towards it this is normal human stuff but it's not Christ and it's not God and if you start thinking that your culture is is is Christ um just

because it has some Churches in it um the question is what the churches are doing and what you're doing and as I say this is this is me asking myself this question because I'm not actually in any legitimate position to stand up and hold the culture to account because because I'm not a holy man right so but somebody said something interesting to me after the talk actually which really stuck with me they said it's I'm aren't we lucky that the gospels were written down just a few decades after Christ by people who knew him because

if they hadn't been you can bet your life that later Christians would have watered them down because they're so incredibly radical and challenging that we don't want to hear them and I think there's something to that it's like we've always got the gospels to go back to when we need a kind of reality check on what we're actually supposed to be doing here and then we go back and we say ah yeah I'm off the Mark again for the 50th time today and you know it's it's that seems to be what's what we need to

do all the time and Elder pesos again I quoted him in the talk he said he was a radio operator in the Greek Civil War and he used this metaphor he said if you want to hear God and speak to God you have to tune your radio dial to humility because that's the frequency on which he always operates and and if we ask ourselves if we're actually doing that then certainly for me most of the time 99% of the time the answer is no so that's what that's what that's the dial on which we can

kind of hear the fre quency that's telling us where we're supposed to walk I suppose yeah yeah yeah and it's and what you said it's the grand Inquisitor to some example it some extent you know it's like that problem that Jesus is so bothersome you know every time I read the gospel put him in prison it's the only sensible thing it's so annoying yeah what is he doing here he's ruining my Christianity exactly and that's that's absolutely true I think that you know you mentioned this scene um in in our discussion now but they made

a movie version of the Gospel of John recently I don't know where it was I was watching with my family and you know there's that scene where he tells people that if you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood then you can't enter the kingdom and I never realized when I read the text that it was in public that it wasn't like with his disciples that it was like in front of everyone and he just says that in front of the Pharisees and in front of all these people and then you think well of

course people ran away like that is the craziest thing in the world to say we have the luck of we have the the chance of retrospect of of seeing resurrected to be able to to look back at some of the the really wild crazy things that he said uh and it's only in that light that we can that we can say okay well I can't digest this but I have to because I'm convinced by the power of the of the of the Resurrection you know but yeah it's it's it's it's very difficult it is is

like I said it's a Cohen I think hopefully hopefully after death we get to understand what was going on properly you know down here we're still we're chewing on it we're chewing on it all the time and trying to trying to I think that even in the story of Jesus there is this image that of the of the seed and the fruit and I think that the image of the Cross and the Heavenly Jerusalem is a good way of thinking about it or even in the image of the Heavenly Jerusalem you have the lamb and

the son of man and so you have this image of the humility of the seed that is planted and then you do have the image of Christ as a as a king you know you do have this image of Christ as a as a as a as a Regal figure that is ruling over the world justly because of him also being the sacrifice you know and that's the reason the reason why he can be our our King and can rule over us in a with all the image all the pageantry all the imagery of of

civilization is because that it's rooted in his in his kosis at the outset yeah so who is the king the king is the Barefoot Carpenter who the authorities killed who preached things that at the time seem to many people to be completely mad but were transformed like you say through the sacrifice through the self-sacrifice into what kingship actually is supposed to look like you know that's exactly it it's that without the sacrifice which is the same thing as the humility I suppose or at least the humility to the sacrifice without that you haven't got anything

you've just got a you've got a simulacrum of a thing called Christianity you've got power you got power and you can paint your cross on on on power but it's still power it's the it's the Beast it's the serpent it's the the prince of this world it's not Christ and we just have to be really careful not to confuse those two things and we perpetually do it and I do it as well it's easy to do but if we do it it's like that's the trick it's like the adversary is just standing there waiting for

us to fall into that trap again and we do we keep falling into it yeah and we do it like you said we do it at every single level we do it as much on in our own personal life as we do it's are in our parishes or in our in our societies uh you know and and so what do you see let's say you know for example like one of the things I I I do love and I care about is like the is the celebration of of our stories for example like this is

something that i' I've kind of Taken on you know and I think Martin Shaw is also kind of taking on is to kind of help people remind you know remind people of these stories and there is in that way like I really do feel the sense of care for my story like a care for my civilization Place uh and and I and I have the sense that there's some importance in I'm trying to like I'm trying to say I think we can see Christ in these in these stories and that's the best way to look

at them you know like the fairy tales and all that uh but I'm curious to what you think about that because you know let's say one of the things that even in like this kind of remembering of the ancient stories of the wild Christians of the of the Saints there is this like we want to celebrate that which brought us where we are today you know we that's part of of how we hold together um and so how do you see that balanced out let's say what's your approach to how to balance that with the

danger of Pride let's say you're talking about like the the stories of the culture more broadly or specific yeah well I mean the for example our the histories of our Nations or you know even the stories of the Saints are like I'm doing I'm I'm kind of revisiting the fairy tales uh the foundation stories all of these all of these aspects like we have this whole aspect of our podcast which we call Universal history where we we're going back and trying to show the Christian you know root of Scandinavian culture of of English culture of

of all these different cultures to say you like there are ways in which this connects together uh so how do you I'm just curious like I don't have a a solution I'm just asking it's a really good question so I've thinking listening to that I've got a couple of thoughts so I'm probably as interested as you in that um I mean I'm a history nerd and I have been all my life and that's why I write weird historical novels and and I just I'm fascinated why I wander around looking at Holy Wells and writing about

them you know because I just I just love the culture manifested in the landscape which we have so much of in Europe going back so long it's just it's a kind of embarrassment of riches and I'm as since certainly since I became a Christian I'm more and more interested in the Christian Foundation of my country which is England and and the country I live in now which is Ireland and how that manifests in the landscape how that built the people so all of this is there and I think it it's there to be rediscovered and

I think especially the early Christian stories which really interest me especially here in Ireland because I'm fascinated by the possibility that the first Christians in Ireland were actually from Egypt I'm I'm fascinated by this theory that the desert fathers effectively sent people up here and there's plenty of evidence for this and so the the foundation of Irish Christianity which then becomes British Christianity actually is the desert Christianity of of Egypt rather than the kind of civilized Center so obviously this appeals to me you know this floats my boat but this is why this country is

full of of like caves that Hermits used to live in in the rest of it so I'm really fascinated by that and it's why I keep writing about the Saints and it's why I write about the Holy Wells and it's not just because i' I'm just a history nerd and I find that interesting it's because I think we've got something to learn from this because I think that this is my intuition and maybe it's wrong and people will disagree but I have a feeling that the West itself needs to die in fact I think it

may already have died actually this thing we call the West is a sacrifice and is being sacrificed so that the the plant can die so the seeds can grow exactly as you were talking earlier right you don't get the growth without the sacrifice and I think we've got to such a point where we have created a culture that is is irreligious and Babylon likee and topheavy and it's just fading away and I don't mean that there should be a giant catastrophe or we should destroy it or anything like that I just think that it's dying

if it's not already gone and we have to let that happen because it's not going to be stoppable at this point and instead of doing that instead of like fighting to protect x y and Zed aspects of the super structure we can go back to the root of the culture and write about that instead and build that and protect that so it's not an All or Nothing situation we don't say oh the West is in trouble let's let everything burn like the Joker you know but at the same time we don't say let's get out

there and fight for our right to I don't know form transnational corporations and and have economic growth forever and ever and M the asteroids with Ellen musk right that's not anything to do do with what we're talking about why don't we step back from that battle at the moment which is going on anyway and go back to Our Roots which we'll find in those stories you know what how did these let's let's tell the stories of the Saints let's tell the fairy tales and you let's go and write about how Christianity manifests in the landscape

and let's do that not with a plan in mind that this is going to build a civilization but just because we think it's the thing we need to do and then it will then things will happen you know stories I'm with you you know you know what I think about this stories are the way that we navigate reality and this was the really actually funnily enough this is what I'm saying now is almost a a Christian version of what we did at the dark Mountain project about 15 years ago when I was certainly wasn't a

Christian at the time but that was a project which said look this this whole modern machine is creaking and crashing and instead of fighting over it let's go back to the roots and and examine where the stories went wrong and tell some of the correct stories instead because I think the root of a of of a civilization that's gone wrong is is a story that's gone wrong and so let's tell the right one and you're right then that that actually becomes to me a really exciting thing to do you know it's not Doom Laden it's

not it's it's not a culture War it's not about anger or or or or giving up or anything it's like yeah let's let's go back to the desert in a way in a good way and see what happens if we do that let's tell the stories and let's dig out these old stories that no one knows about of what our ancestors did not so that we can copy them exactly but just so that we can listen to them and be inspired by them and they'll act on us so I think that's the I think that's

the way a way forward that is exciting for storytellers especially yeah man I think I think I felt this I felt this this problem so many times you know in terms of even in terms of my own engagements you know I worked in Africa for seven years you know and working with Artisans and it was wonderful but there were definitely moments because I was helping The Artisans to you know to sell their their things and maybe you know to connect to Western markets and there was always this ambiguity even in my soul you know and

you see it you see it manifested for example like this is going to be controversial for some people it's like between North Korea and South Korea it's like these two places and then it's like North Korea is this horrible horrible place you know that is just you know extremely tyrannical and controlling and everything and it's like you know we should free them and then it's like free them so that they become like South Korea so that they become a place where no one's having children where everything is falling apart where you know people are are

living in Despair and and in and in complete you know pornification of culture it's like is that is that what we want to replace it is that Western culture like is Western culture Disney and porn and if that's it then no thank you no no thank you indeed uh and so it's yeah it's definitely something that that yeah that GRS in me even in my own engagement sometimes when I'm thinking what you're saying like do I want everybody do I want to bring what is modern Western culture to you know to the rest of the

world and the answer is no and I you know my my feeling for a long time it's been that this thing that we call the West is an idol at this point and it's also not only does it you know as you say it's brought plenty of material benefits but it's also hugely culturally damaging to lots of other parts of the world which have been crushed by it but also to the C to the people that we were before this modern thing appeared called the west and squatted on our cultures and sucked all of the

the sacredness out of our cultures and the locality and the and the distinctiveness and we've confused this this kind of modern hyper consumerist industrial Beast that we call the West with an actual culture and it's not a culture it's like a giant it's the machine as I call it the but the machine is parasitical upon actual culture whether it's here or elsewh so so we ought to be on the side of culture that is serving God and serving Christ rather than this kind of antic culture which serves the machine which we sometimes confuse for for

the real thing yeah yeah that no I think that that's the that's the right way to think about it and so listen Paul I would say I think this is a good place to to to stop thank you thanks for taking your time to do this you know I think it was used like I said I was really touched by the talk and it was it was good to work it out with you and to kind of get a sense of your of your position I I really appreciate what you're doing and I think a

lot of people do a lot of people really appreciate what you're doing and and uh and know I I I need to keep you humble but I'll still flatter you anyways cuz I I want I think I think it's important that you you understand that you have an important place in this big discussion that's happening and people that you might not know that you might not think are paying attention to I think they are so so keep doing what you're doing that's an intimidating thought thank you thank you very now I'll now go and do

a lot of frustrations to restore my humility all right there you go that's all I wanted I just wanted actually to just I need to do later you have to go to confession like I was lots of confession in the next week pride pride thank you no it's it's been really good I really appreciate the invitation as ever always great to talk