Andrew Weissmann on second-term Trump DOJ: ‘You won’t have the people who will simply refuse’

lose your entire department leadership every single AAG will walk out on you your entire department leadership will walk out within hours and I don't know what happens after that and I said Mr President within 24 48 72 hours you could have hundreds and hundreds of resignations of the leadership of your entire Justice Department because of your actions what's that going to say about you that's what happened last time hi again everybody it's 5:00 in New York that's what happened when Donald Trump wanted to install coup Enthusiast Jeffrey Clark at the top of doj last time

he was president that conversation As Told under oath is what ensued our institutions and those who worked in them were able to prevent Donald Trump from following through with what he wanted to do which was driven by his worst impulses but now with Trump set to return to the White House to be our president again the open question being watch the world over is will that be the case again will one man threaten that quote the entire department leadership and hundreds of others will walk out will he be restrained by anyone like that will he

be will he abide by the rule of law and people like Mr Donahue who were more committed to upholding the rule of law than Donald Trump as we've heard from Donald Trump himself and his allies Donald Trump plans on installing more loyal people people and more of them in every corner of the federal government in his next Administration but he has paid special attention to and zeroed in on the Department of Justice as something he can specifically weaponize he has said it out in the open that he wants to use the Department of Justice to

go after to prosecute and to punish his enemies and according to project 2025 an independent Department of Justice is no more more that's gone we won't have that again they write that the justice department in the next Administration should do this quote issue guidance to ensure that litigation decisions are consistent with the president's agenda and the rule of law and quote there's the Supreme Court a usual check on the executive branch which this summer showed it believes that this President is immune from prosecution for all official acts and special councel Jack Smith who for the

past year year and a half has investigated and then indicted the ex-president over his role on January 6 and his mishandling of classified documents including National Defense information is now moving to wind down both of those Federal cases before they ever see the inside of a courtroom New York Times reports this quote Trump's success in using his campaign as a protective shield has no parallel in legal or political history and highlights the many ways in which politics and Justice have become come tightly if uncomfortably entwined since he first saw the presidency 8 years ago what

happens to the rule of law in America is where we began with some of our favorite experts and Friends former top official the Department of Justice MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman is here plus staff writer for the Atlantic and author of autocracy Inc and apple bomb is here um thank you to both of you um Andrew your thoughts on on any and all of this well I think that you are absolutely right to highlight this we do have uh what happened in the first presidency in terms of the rule of law and I think there's

no reason to think that it's going to be any better um I should note this just to tie this into civil cases where the president in a normal private civil case for instance the one brought against Rudy Giuliani does not have direct Authority it's not part of the Department of Justice but he could weaponize the Department of Justice against the plaintiffs he could weaponize them against the lawyers he could uh weaponize the Department of Justice against uh people like Leticia James um who has brought a successful civil suit so there are many ways even in

the Civil realm but in the criminal realm we're already seeing it with this idea of a drum beat of going after people like Liz Cheney where there's no factual predicate for it but the White House does have control over the Department of Justice um I should note though on the good news side is that at the end of the day grand juries are involved judges are involved and when I think about the sort of threats about Liz Cheney in many ways I think you know what does Donald Trump really want a case involving January 6

in a criminal courtroom I mean he's been fighting that for years and going after Liz Cheney is only going to result in the revelation of damning fox so some of this I think is something to really worry about and some of this is something that may be uh saber rattling with the idea of using it for fear so that people uh tow the line and don't raise uh objections and don't aren't as vocal and exercising their first amendment rights in the way that they should be um Andrew Weissman I'm going to ask you some questions

that that um you know put you on the spot so if you don't want to answer them um I will understand um Donald Trump has never gotten over the cloud that hung over his presidency because of the meller investigation and that was put in motion by serious questions of a Russian attack on the 2016 election the original concerns were whether the Trump campaign wittingly or unwittingly there was a presumption that maybe they didn't even know about it um when those were investigated everyone that touched that was fired smeared and or some some combination of both

some of them were audited aggressively by the IRS they include people you know well um uh Jim Comey Andrew McCay Pete strugle I mean you know the list is is lengthy um none of that will happen um if there's a question about something that a foreign adversary does and it touches Donald Trump um there's no mechanism to investigate him if he controls the Department of Justice and the FBI um Donald Trump will probably never be imp again the Republicans at least for the first two years control everything and the Supreme Court has given him absolute

immunity let me with that but that articulated let let me just play what he said he plans to do with all that power what they've done is they've released the genie out of the box you know when you're president and you you've done a good job and you're popular you don't go after them so you can win an election they've done indictments in order to win an election they call it weaponization and the people aren't going to stand for it but yeah they have done something that allows the next party I mean if somebody if

I happen to be president and I see somebody who's doing well and beating me very badly I say go down and indict them mostly what that would be you know they would be out of business they'd be out they'd be out of the election just a little incoherent but but saying out loud that he plans to use the department as he sees fit to go out and and get them um what should the country be prepared for and what if anything should doj be prepared to be asked to do at his Direction well first of

all for the people at the Department of Justice um their oath of office is going to be what has to guide them um but you're right to point out that one of the plans is to politicize the leadership and if possible they're talking about actually having that be the career people would also be replaced um and so that you won't have um the people who will simply refuse um to take action based on their oath of office as we saw in connection with the effort to overthrow the will of the people um in that culminated

in January 6 um I think one of the mistakes that people could make from this election even with the results in terms of what's happened in Congress and uh the presidency is um for to be for for the people taking power to think that it's a mandate for the policies um that they're advocating and they really is I think a risk of them going way too far and overread the results of what happened you can see that for instance just in terms of um Reproductive Rights um but I think it's probably in other ways where

you could end up with the incoming Administration really um going um down the autocratic route that um an has written about so cently um and alienating uh many of the people who um were voting for Trump for other reasons um but were not actually embodying his policies and with the Department of Justice it made be the top of everyone's mind obviously for people like me uh for lawyers for people who've been in the department it I view it as a Cornerstone of our democracy um and is something that autocratic regimes it's one of the first

things that you go after uh to uh be able to take sort of you know exclusive and reclusive Authority um in and to chill any sort of opposition to what you're doing but I do think there's there really is a heightened risk here in over reading the results of the election