Consciousness, UFOs & Non-Human Intelligence | Bernardo Kastrup

there is only one consistent entity if you will or agency I prefer the word agency that I have encountered many times that always was very interested in giving me a gift and that gift was not a thing was a way of seeing was a realization and it's very difficult to get a human to achieve that realization to do that you have to undergo a benign form of deception because what prevents you from seeing it is yourself and once that happens then you see the thing and it starts as C spherical object with glowing lights but

um if you can actually see it it's not an object it's thought it's emotion it's you and other itself and world it's the Panacea the template the pattern underlying everything it it is it is everything no even if you say it's a form of Illusion so there is a sense in which you could say everything is an illusion but if it is so it's as as real an illusion as this welcome back to the transmission my friends what if this physical world that we see that we experience with our senses as all-encompassing as it is

to our daily lives is not the true reality and to that Prospect I Adventure guess that most of you are like yeah Michael I've been given physical reality the side eye since I was rocking pull-ups since the first time I ate applesauce it's not a new new idea to me uh and I agree but there's a big difference between ontological speculation and the scientific and academic consensus and the latter really do seem to be coming around to this idea and of course there's a lot of nuance to what that means that I'm not exercising by

making that statement but regardless it does beg a lot of questions what's beneath that sensory illusion why do we experience the world in that way what is lurking behind behind it are there other beings other consciousnesses well according to the brilliant Bernardo castrip the bottom line is consciousness this is what he is proposing with his philosophy but again many of you know this and for those of you that do one of the things I love about being able to talk to people like Bernardo repeatedly is that I slowly work up the courage to start dipping

my questions in high weirdness I start asking questions that maybe I wouldn't have asked the first or second time he was on the show and as you may have gathered in that teaser just a minute ago we do go off the beaten path I do ask him some questions I doubt you've ever heard him answer before but if you don't know Bernardo he believes that Consciousness is the bottom line the ultimate underlying truth of reality and if you want to know more good because not only will we unpack it in this mind melt he's got

a new book out a that explaining all of it in an approachable yet detailed way it's called analytic idealism in a nutshell all the links that you're going to need for Bernardo castrip are in the description same for third ey drops and if you appreciate this content my friends all I ask is that you stimulate the algorithm in all ways like sub comment share uh tick the Bell icon and did you know that we've got hundreds of Audio Only mind Ms that will never be posted on YouTube including a couple with Bernardo castrip so do

subscribe to third ey drops wherever you listen and if you personally want to go deeper if you want to riff with me and hundreds of other Seekers on this topic on all of the esoteric Curiosities we Muse about on the channel join up and support these Transmissions at patreon.com thiri drops we've got a patron only Discord server a book club we do Zoom hangs you can get stickers pins shirts and more all on patreon I do hope to wrap with you there but for now let's meld Minds with Bernardo castrip the major implication of what

you're proposing with your philosophy is that everything we see everything in the physical world as unintuitive as this may be and and hard as it may be to accept for a lot of people is essentially an evolutionarily convenient illusion or as you like to say like an instrument cluster and downstream of that that means that everything we've done with science everything we've done with physical reality to try to understand the nature of that reality better is akin to nothing more than playing with dials on that dashboard or playing with pixels in the simulation if you

want to call it that yeah but that's a lot that's a it's very important if all we have is the dashboard and no transparent windows we better study the D dynamics of the different dial in the dashboard and understand how they work because by proxy that's indirectly how the world works so it is useful for sure for sure and so so in your new book and and across the Corpus of your work and hundreds or thousands of interviews and debates that you've done over the course of your philosophical career you've really had to support that

idea and not just support the idea but show why you think that all the evidence is pointing to that and that that's the most not only the evidence is pointing there but that's the most parsimonious most obvious most simple explanation why is that it is think of an airplane uh when an airplane has sensors the measurements of Those sensors are presented to the pilot not as the states of the sky that were measured really are but in a way that is convenient vent for the pilot in the form of a little dial on a dashboard

or some some form of indication because it's much easier to to react to threats and opportunities that way why would we be different we also have sensors retinas tongue nose outer surface of the skin your drums we also make measurements of the real states of the world as the world actually is why would these measurements be presented to us exactly in the way the world is it makes no sense um we would be as Donald Hoffman has proven mathematically with his team we would be swiftly driven to Evolution if you saw the world as it

actually is it evolution is not about truth it's about Fitness it's about survival it's about reproduction and also thermodynamically if we were to mirror the states of the world in our perceptual states there would be no upper bound to our internal entropy to our internal disorder if you will because there is no upper bound to the entropy of the world so if we were to mirror the world in our internal perceptual States we would stand a chance of dying um and and that that has never happened so obviously we don't mirror the world in our

perceptual States we infer and encode and construct a dashboard of dials that is uh capable of limiting our internal entropy just like an airplane dashboard limits the entropy the pilot have to contend with in Pilot training yeah you have to understand the whole flight Manual of your airplane but that manual as although thick it is not infinite the pilot doesn't need to learn what to do for each different shape of cloud uh you you just encode all that in some into some measurement that is relevant like air humidity and air pressure um the same for

us and it is a virtual certainty it it would be extraord ordinarily extraordinarily unlikely it is extraordinarily unlikely that we see the world as it actually is why would we I mean we have absolutely no reason to think that and every single possible reason to think otherwise right and and as you if as you've stated and Don Hoffman has has argued quite ELO eloquently I would argue just to just to put a highlight on this point not only do we not see reality as it is if we did we would not survive we would be

completely overwhelmed by Superfluous information that we don't need that's irrelevant to our ability to exist and survive and reproduce and get food and and whatever else and that point alone brings up so much more but please please illustrate that further if you if you feel the need no I think we we've been course to death uh by now if somebody thinks that we do see the world as it is this is a position called naive realism if you think that the burden is on you to explain why you think that and God help you trying

to do that yeah yeah and that's one of the things that you say at the end of your new book is that although it takes a long time to change people's minds and change their assumptions about reality being reduced to these physical bits one thing you have seen pretty irrefutably is that there are fewer people who are really comfortable defending that position like def defending the sort of direct realism stance or defending hardcore physicalism right oh there are some people who still defend some form of physical realism meaning that the physical entities really exist in

and of themselves independent of measurement or observation 50 years of physics points in the in the opposite direction that the physical properties are the result of measurement not the thing that is measured it's just like the dashboard dashboard indications are the result of a measurement not the thing that is measured if you don't measure anything the dashboard shows nothing if we don't measure the world there is no physical world the true world that is measured it's not physical in the sense of not being describable through physical quantities alone what's the only other gaming to It's

Made of mental states which are qualitative States and cannot be disc described through numbers alone Ian what is the length in inches of your thought what is uh what is the energy in in in Jews of your fantasy I mean it doesn't work like that um but even worse than that is is mainstream physicalism which not only depends on physical realism being true which again empirical evidence suggests very strongly that it is not you have to entertain one another theoretical fantasy for which there is precisely zero um empirical evidence if you want to stick to

physical realism You' have to think of ation multi worlds for which there is zero empirical evidence or you have to think of a super determinism that doesn't even have a complete and coherent theoretical elaboration nobody has ever told us in scientifically precise terms what these hidden variables are supposed to be how to look for them despite despite claims to the contrary no has done that and I'm prepared to defend this um I have seen people saying otherwise and I I question what the motivation of was to say otherwise um but physical realism goes sorry physicalism

goes further and say not only is physical realism true mind is not mind is a kind of reducible epip phenomenon a form of Illusion a form of ephemeral supervenience on physical States despite the obvious fact that mind is Nature's sole pretheoretical given all theories are made in mind Beyond mind everything's an abstraction it may be a correct abstraction but it is necessarily an abstraction because all we have is mind that's how we start this whole game and that is even less sustainable and that's why these days it's very hard to find somebody who is outright

prepared to explicitly defend physicalism people you would most associate with physicalism in the media when they get to a debate suddenly they become agnostic suddenly they say well I just followed the evidence I'm not really a physicalist yeah that's what's happening now it's part of the process of transition one of the ironies I came across recently that I covered in a video that I made is that some of these fathers of what ends up eventually Downstream becoming a physicalist reductionist sort of philosophy that is still the dominant way of trying to ascertain truth in the

world or or you know understand the world these fathers themselves got their inspiration from incredibly unscientific means like dart's dreams you know dart's dreams um I'm assuming you're familiar with this whole story about how had yeah yeah the series of three dreams and then the the Angelic figure who tells him that um reality is to be ascertained through number and measure but then uh one that fewer people talk about is the um is perenties on nature because many people you know just kind of throw around this idea that Parmenides is the father of logic right

because of the way that um on nature sort of outlines these these um they're at least protological arguments right that there are these postulates being given um many of which I think you would really like because they start from a fundamental Assumption of Oneness and it it goes from there and then talks about how doca and the world presenting itself as these Polar Opposites um is a foundationally erroneous way to think about reality but even more than that it's given to him by a goddess by a vision of a goddess that he has through du

what sounds like some sort of like Soul flight or psychedelic experience or astral travel or something so so there's there's that irony that underpins all of these assumptions like these insights came from very non-physical sources well that's not really an argument against the opposition right wherever the insights come from you have to judge them based on analytic reasoning and empirical evidence so I understand where you're coming from I sympathize with it but we can't use that as an argument against physicalists because it it doesn't count in according to the rules of the game it doesn't

count where the Insight came from as long as you can defend it right yeah depending what game you're playing like if you're if you're playing the game of academic philosophy I agree it doesn't work but but it is funny that when you know in in a model that prizes the notion that you learn something about reality through taking a measurement right and then showing over and over again that you can achieve the same measurement through the same method or whatever but the very beginning of that was not done by that method that that's that's the

irony I'm trying to trying to point to but this one one of the next things that this implies of course is that okay the question everybody's going to have then if if we don't ascertain reality through our senses or even through the scientific method how do we what is it and of course I I know the answer to this but just for the benefit of people who who don't know your argument well objectively speaking I think the scientific method is still an incredibly powerful method to to learn about reality it is not direct it is

indirect because it's mediated by perception and perception is a dashboard uh but indirectly it does what it claims to do through the mediation of the dashboard it does describe the actual real world and it is the most solid method and most objective method we have developed so far we got rid of so much error so much nonsense since we started insisting on the rigor of the scientific method so from a western perspective which is what I am I would still consider it a Prime method even in Neuroscience even if the brain does not generate the

mind which I don't think it does but is merely what the Mind looks like what our thoughts and emotions look like when observed from the outside um in other words the brain is then the image of mind as opposed to the cause of mind the image is still extraordinarily useful it's it's it's the sum total of the objective access you can have to one's mind the other method of access is introspection uh um um and that complements of course scientific investigation but we know how unreliable introspection can be it's very hard to make it objective

and repeatable um mind seems to have this tendency to try to deceive itself and we have known that for at least over 20 years now since we started realizing that Consciousness or raw experience and meta Consciousness or the knowing of the experience they don't always go hand in hand sometimes what you report is not at all what you experience and even you don't have a clue because when you cognitively re-represent the experience in order to become explicitly aware of it and report it you introduce errors in that re representation so even even if we take

inpection for the Royal Avenue to investigating the nature of reality which I think it is I am with schopenhauer and with e philosophy in this regard I still think complimenting it with the scientific method through objective uh um measurement U and theorizing uh is is crucial so it's just that um in the west we don't take introspection very seriously at all and in some traditional philosophical lines in the East you don't take empiricism and and very seriously at all well we have to take seriously every tool in the toolbox that's how we go about it

right yeah and I mean closer to home that's what you know you know I've been really interested in platonism over the last few years and have been cozying up more and more to that philosophical lineage and and they make the same assumption that you you get closer to the fundamental reality only through the intelligible like it's all the non- intelligible is backwards compatible with the intelligible and with the things in that realm it it it's all part of the same thing but to really get closer to the truth that you can only like noesis the

highest kind of knowing is a fundamentally intelligible thing it's really the essence of intelligibility um and and that's one of the things that really really turns me on to it but but this question that we're starting to bump up against now is you know how do you actually ascertain the truth of reality and metac cognizing only goes so far so again this idea that being a of what you're aware of essentially like be consciously understanding what you're aware of and to put a to put like a an easy [Music] to understand hiccup in this scenario

is when people I talked about this with Jeff kple when people are exploring Consciousness and they are presented with an image this could be an in a dream in a psychedelic state in a meditative state in a near-death experience these are arguably deeper stat states of pure Consciousness than than what we are in on a daily basis but when you're presented with an image in those experiences what do you do with that how do you weigh the image in terms of importance like how do you even ontologically think of the image how do you understand

where the image is coming from and this presents all sorts of problems for this this ass or this this thing that we're talking about here which is that okay so maybe Consciousness exploration is the Royal Road to getting closer to truth but also as you get closer to that truth the ways of ascertaining knowledge become foggier and more ephemeral and harder to understand and I would imagine that this is something you've thought about right like how do you make sense of an image that you're presented with do you do you take the image seriously do

you take it as a a sort of like yian angle like it's a representation of something that's real but it's not the thing in and of itself I think when the Mind talk talks to itself the only language it can speak is the language of symbols so I would take endogenous imagery symbolically because that's how the mind works um you know our mind is a series of layers of different degrees of you know sophistication and different approaches to cognition that have evolved over the four billion years of evolution of life on Earth and um the

deeper layers are phenetically very ancient um and in that sense they're closer to the root of reality but they don't have the higher level U mental functions that you require to speak literally that's a much later evolved thing it's even it popped within culture even you know we were we were already Homo sapiens for over 200,000 years before we evoled these new higher level mental functions that allow us to describe things literally and to think in terms of the axioms of logic and rules of derivation in other words to reason this is all more recent

so when the deeper layers of the Mind wants to talk to the more superficial more recent younger layers of the Mind the only language it can speak is that of symbols which is the Ural the the the the the the primordial language of the Mind before we evolved symbolic thinking reasoning and and all that so my first reflex would be whatever emerges within my mind endogeneously in the midst of introspection my first reflex is to think this is my mind talking to myself through symbolisms so I would not take it literally and I would not

take it to be an external objective truth out there to ascertain the latter you would have to have and this has never has never been achieved uh under controlled conditions but you would have to have multiple say meditators um report mutually consistent and non-trivial inner imagery only then would you be able to say well there is something objective to this um Jung was open to this possibility so am I um because um both he and I we think you know everything is mentation so the archetypes that inform how our mind works are the same archetypes

that inform how everybody else's minds work as well as the world at at large because that too is an appearance of the collective unconscious it's how the collective unconscious presents itself to external observation mediated by the sense so you could go that far and say there are shared objective archetypes and that's why there are the similarities and these consistencies but it's still symbolic because archetypes only manifest symbolically they are an expression of the primordial mind that only speaks the language of symbols the language of similarities um to go beyond even that and say okay now

now we are perceiving imagery that is itself objective it's not only symbolic but it is what it seems to be that I don't know whether it's whether it's possible at all I I reserve judgment uh on that I have never seen compelling evidence um pointing in that direction and I'm sure you're going to tell me now just one well well actually I was going to agree because what ends up happening is I think as you go deeper into these Realms of consciousness you innately must disassociate from yourself more and as you disassociate from yourself more

your ability to think from a firstperson egoic perspective Fades and I I exper I mentioned briefly that I just did a retreat at Monroe Institute and this is something that happened to me in almost every meditation and my my thought about this evolved over the course of it I initially during these meditations would think oh I'm falling asleep I'm falling asleep and then they started throwing around this phrase of clicking out that you would in these meditations you would sort of Click out and to me again I thought no what do you mean I'm just

like I'm falling asleep during the meditation but as the week went on I started thinking actually what I think might be happening is I am becoming so disassociated from myself that I sort of experience lost time during the meditation because as you come back to yourself you have a foggy it's almost like coming out of anesthesia or something where you have this foggy sense wait no where what was I just doing or where was I but you can't remember because it's like it wasn't from whatever was happening was not from the perspective that you normally

think about yourself and metac cognize it's it's like another mode of reality that's more basic yet it's extremely slippery to try to bring back into your usual POV so that's one of the really difficult things is how do you stretch your met metacognitive Horizon right like or is that even possible do do you think it is possible to do that it's certainly possible to stretch your metacognitive Horizon that's much of what we call the Game of Life requires that but um what I also think is that there are Realms in mental space rooms in the

Palace of your mind that you cannot bring metacognitive uh awareness too because there is a certain glare to metacognitive awareness or attention um that when you focus on a certain experience and you re-represent it metacognitively so you think about the experience so you think about your thoughts and you deliberate critically about what it is that you're experiencing you can think of that as a kind of a feedback loop back and forth between representation and re-representation of mental contents that creates a glare and obfuscates everything else so there are Corners in the Palace of mind that

uh for as long as your meta metaconsciousness or metacog cognitive awareness is Alive and Kicking and no you don't you just don't see them they they they become obfuscated you cannot pick them up they become overwhelmed by the light of metacognition it's like trying to see the stars in the sky at noon in a day in a in a day with good weather it's the glare of the sun just obfuscates everything else the stars are still there they their photons the photons they emitted are still hitting your retina technically you are still seeing them but

you cannot discern them because of the glare of the Sun the same thing with many many corners in the Palace of mind for as long as the the light of the Sun the light of meta awareness is full on it's hopeless to pick them out you have to allow what neuroscientists call the defa mode Network which is this metacognitive sense of self you know I am this person who is experienced this and this right now you have to start weakening that and turning that off which is what psychedelics do um in order to suddenly adjust

your vision so you can perceive um the overwhelming wealth of mental activity that your mind U is capable of so when you were talking about it under this pretense of the mind talking to itself and I I assume you mean within its own so so you in your analytic I idealism you liken being a human to being a disassociated sort of portion of the whole of Consciousness that you are like you're still part of this fundamental Unity of Consciousness and so is everything in fact but you create this disassociative sort of umelt that's just yours

and it's comprised of that of that same Oneness but it's sort of in in its own little cut off protected bubble yeah we didn't do that ourselves it's part of the evolution of life life is what this dissociation looks like but but go ahead I understand you so so I'm guessing it follows for you then that well you even said that it's the mind talking to itself is this within the dissociative bubble this the self talk or or can the talk occur across the border of your disassociated boundary I think most of our inner chatter

is within the dissociated bubble of course dissociation is hierarchical so there are partial associations within that bubble as well we know that from both philosophy of Mind Clinical Psychology and Neuroscience um so most of it I think is within the bubble um I do think though that if life is what a dissociative process in this Feud of subjectivity that nature is if that's what life is life is then the active enforcement of the dissociative boundary that's what we evolved to do the ones amongst our ancestors who didn't care about maintain aining the dissociation in other

words didn't care about surviving um they didn't reproduce so we are the ancestors of the ones who sorry we are the descendants of the ones who really cared who really identified with the dissociation that's why we are so neurotic um and arguably every living being is neurotic because they think they are them and not the rest of the world that's how Evolution would have done it right it's very understandable it couldn't have happened in any other way but I am open to the reality that no processing nature is absolutely foolproof and perfect and neither is

dissociation I mean when something Burns not everything that is combustible will burn when it stops raining the ground doesn't get dry immediately or completely uh no processing nature is like 100% it's not binary like this it's a question of gradations there is always a spectrum the association would be no exception to that so Evolution certainly favored the strongest possible dissociative boundaries because that's what would make us the most committed to our own Survival if you don't identify with your bag of skin but you think you are the entire world you don't care if the tiger

is coming to eat you the tiger is hungry let him eat right um but despite this this clear bias towards strong dissociative boundaries I think it's a virtual certainty that it's not 100% strong um there will be areas of permeability areas in which subtle mental states can traffic across the dissociative boundary because that's how nature is it never does anything binarily um so it is is it possible that part of our inner chatter entails agency beyond our dissociative boundary in other words mental processes out there in the world that are not part of Bernardo Castro

or Michael uh it is conceivable yeah and it probably happens if people are predisposed to that for having by Nature a a weaker dissociative boundary maybe what people call mediums are exactly that yeah yeah I was going to ask you you know what what does that open or close the door to because in in your book you do sort of diminish the idea that positive thinking for instance has any kind of positive power beyond the boundary of yourself like it's just I don't know like internal thought masturbation or something like that and maybe that's good

in and of itself for for your own psychology but but you seem to be sort of pooing the idea that that really has any kind of causitive effect which probably a lot of idealists would maintain that there's a possibility of that that that whatever kind of mental exhaust you're putting off might attract you know like attracts like sort of uh scenario and of course the very cartoonish version of this would be like the secret or something and I see why you wouldn't want to associate yourself with that I don't really want to associate myself with

that either but is there a potential that there is some kind of mental I don't know Outreach that can occur there is uh again dissociative boundaries are not perfect I question trying to do that deliberately through discipline because that becomes an egoic um Enterprise um that is driven by the light of metacogn so by construction you're sort of keeping it in the dissociation because you're owning it you're deliberately doing that through discipline um as opposed to just know let it let it flow around in the ocean of your own dissociation maybe it percolates through the

dissociative boundary um so for it to be effective I don't know that we can really do it in a way that is repeatable and consistent and effective I I don't think the permeability is that vast um I can tell you right now uh there is a war going on in the world well multiple but there's a big war going on in Europe right now if my wishes could affect reality I promise you that war wouldn't be happening uh but you know do what I may the war is still there um if we if the universe

were were really that responsive to our inner State everybody would be super happy and have whatever they want uh that doesn't seem empirically to be the case uh we all suffer a lot they get ill even though we don't want you know the life has twists and turns that are devastating um the world is has never been closer to going to hell in a hand basket than it is today never in the history of humanity have we have we been so close to a planetary catastrophe um so yeah I I I don't think it works

very well no it may work incidentally it may work by chance in which case we will never be able to ascertain that it works because it will not be susceptible to working statistically under controlled conditions and moreover I think it can be very harmful in at least two ways um it puts you in a mental state it stimulates a mental attitude that I think is extraordinary arily unnatural and unhealthy which is your life's about you right and my life's about me so let's visualize uh whatever needs to happen in the world so it satisfy my

desires wishes and needs I think that's profoundly unnatural you are a product of Nature and so am I like a an apple blossom is a product of the apple tree it's not about the apple blossom right nobody would say the life of the apple blossom is about the apple blossom it's about the tree and the grand scheme of Nature and apple trees and all that same for us your life's not about you why would it be who who the hell do you think you are right yeah it's like a termite saying my life's about me

neurotic termite um and and these ideas that the universe is a kind of menu and if you train enough then you can manifest what you want it's incredibly unhealthy it's a form of ego inflation it's unnatural it not bring you to to a good place it sets precisely the wrong mindset for you to go about life the most natural mindset possible another way in which it's harmful is that um people are fated to fail and then they'll blame themselves yeah like uh they get a cancer diagnosis and then they go and do their morning affirmations

and meditations and what what else and then they don't get cured and they say well I failed I am miserable I am worth nothing uh worse yet they may feel guilty because if you believe in this stuff then if you get angry at somebody and you spontaneously have an image arising your mind in which that person gets hurt and the next day lo and behold the person gets hurt you you blame yourself uh you blame yourself for failing to help your loved ones despite visualizing whatever you want to visualize to cure them or to get

them out of trouble to know to solve their addiction whatever um and and and and that is unhealthy too you'll be taking a blame that is unnatural that it doesn't belong in you it's not yours it's not yours as being will never be so I I will speak against this kind of approach to life because I think it's harmful and unnatural and wrong yeah yeah me too me too and so I've got like three things percolating here that I really want to posit to you the first thing is that following up on what you're saying

here it seems more like however it does work that this boundary is permeable is in that sort of a causal way that Yung talked about is in that sort of like way where you through some Twist of circumstance or mixture of willful action and uh Cosmic sympathy end up being in just the right State at just the right time to sort of be at the crossroads of a synchronicity or to um you know pull on the right archetypal thread at the right time in the right place through doing the right things consciously or unconsciously and

that is a fundamentally different thing than willfully knocking over some kind of mental Domino that leads to another mental Domino that eventually leads to you getting like a million dollar check in the mail or something right like like this is something that is where you are not the nucleus of the activity and the overarching cause of the activity you're like one part of it you're you're a part of something that's both beyond your dissociative boundary and within your dissociative boundary to use your terminology right I think it's even worse than that um okay we think

that our egoic plans and wishes are our true plans and wishes they aren't there is much more to ourselves as individuals then what you think you want what you really want is often inaccessible to people they will repress it they will reject it they will ignore it because um usually it's not something they want to deal with what they really want that feeling that desire is not something they want to deal with because it doesn't fit with the social recipes you know get an education work hard build a house with a white picked fence and

a dog and a wife have three kids and then retire to play golf well what most people really want has a little to do with this um so there we have an internal dichotomy maybe a mul Tooty um in which what we tell ourselves we want is not what is really wished for in the core of our being you can visualize a human being as a tree we grow out of nature like a tree and uh there are parts of us that are still very closely connected to Nature because that's the ground of our being

that's like the roots of the tree um and the parts that evolve later phenetically you can imagine it as a tree growing uh get further and further and further away from our point of contact with the world which is the root the intellect is like the canopy it's very high up think of the tree as your feet in your intellect is very high up in your head sure it's the the fur farthest away from the point of contact between you and the world so if there is Commerce of mental States across the dissociative boundary if

there is a diffusion of mental States in and out where will it happen mostly well it will be the mental states of the root system right because that's where you're connected to the rest of nature um psychologically those would be Prim primordial emotions and intuitions um things that are not our real plans they are happening within us but most of us are blind to it you may need years of y to even become aware of what you really want of what you how you really feel so the chance that the canopy of the tree will

adopt a little technique and and somehow manag to allow those created mental states to go down the trunk of the tree into the roots and into the world to a sufficient degree that it can change the world I think the chance is very close to zero um if we do have an influence in the world it will be a type of influence that Yun would Yung would have called an unconscious influence it's not unconscious at all it's just not metacognitive in other words you don't know how you're influencing the world because you really what you

really want is not something your ego often knows it takes Decades of maturity of paying attention to life perhaps therapy perhaps philosophy perhaps a psychedelic trip or another for you to even know what is actually going on in the root system of your being uh and which of often contrad contradicts your inner narratives about who you are and what you want uh that's why people are are so confused they are at war with themselves they are at war with their own wishes and desires shophow described it as the will in nu the will in N

is equivalent to a very very strong large but blind man that's the primordial showing us the root system and on the shoulder of this very large but blind man there's a very little weak man but he has eyes and that's the intellect in other words the ego self is a tiny thing that can see metacognitively and the rest can't but it it doesn't have power it can't even walk on its own there's a lot going on on the on the lower layers of our own psyche our own mind I find it posterous uh for people

to to think that before they even mature enough to understand their own minds that they they can't go ahead and change the world absolutely it's childish yeah yeah Yung used to talk about the ego as like a cork bobbing up and down on the surface of an ocean and and it's funny because I haven't thought about that since returning from this retreat but I kept referring to going into those meditations like being a toddler putting on water wings and like floating around because we spend so little time in the dark with our Consciousness most of

us that we truly like you were saying before we're like we're we're in it all the time but just like how the daylight blinds you to the star night sky you don't even have a [ __ ] clue how deep that ocean goes if if you're not even diving beneath the surface and each one even doing four to six 45 minute to an hour Dives below the surface every day I still feel like I'm absolutely just like that toddler in water wings like it goes so much deeper I don't even know what I'm encountering when

I'm encountering the things a lot of the time so that that Journey to the you know what Yung would call the capital S self or the Dion or whatever it it is a non bypassable Labyrinth that is bigger than you can possibly imagine that has all kinds of twists and turns and it's and you definitely cannot get there just through conscious ego activity or wishful thinking I I completely completely agree um so the one of the other things that was you know baking in my head when you were talking about the unfortunate circumstances in the

world geopolitically and in general right is probably a question that crops up in a lot of people's minds which is okay well if there is ultimately One agent you know there's one conscious as your analytic idealism proposes then what you know problem of evil why does bad stuff happen why why why doesn't it stop bad things from happening why doesn't it use us as extensions of itself to make the world a better place um and just to get the ball rolling on this part of it is because we have this hangover from some kind of

theistic sense of what this mind is and what it's capable of right because the this one that you're proposing is more like some kind of base layer of reality that acts off of impulse and Instinct right than than some all powerful mind that's bringing everything into reality and taking it out of reality consciously to say that the world is made of mental States or that nature is one spatially ound field of subjectivity is not to say that there is a humanlike mind out there deliberating and making moral decisions um we know that all this stuff

are higher level mental functions that we evolved and it cost life four billion years on this planet to evolve those higher level mental functions in us that's why we are self-aware that's why we are metac cognizant we can deliberate we can weigh things we can reason we can pass moral judgment this is evolved stuff it requires a tremendous sophistication of the state of mind that we've acquired through Evolution um most dissociated complexes of the mind of nature in other words most living beings do not have that at all they are purely instinctive they are always

operating archetypally in a in a in a fairly simple way it's rich but simple um you know they they go after food they run away from danger they prefer warm temperatures to cold or warm temper is too hot uh it's very predictable stuff why because they are expressions of instinctive Minds if higher level mental functions were built into the fabric of reality an amoeba could philosophize an amoeba would be able to contemplate its own situation as a little amiba and think about the meaning of life and reason and draw plans there is no evidence that

they can do that they can build little houses out of mud particles but that's pretty instinctive we can accommodate that into Instinct without any problem at all so I don't think that this overmind of which we are a part uh can reason or pass moral judgment or make moral choices and that's why all the [ __ ] it is not like us it is large it may be very intelligent but it's not metac cognizant it cannot reason it cannot deliberate it cannot weigh Alternatives it's doing its thing spontaneously like an instinctive mind does spontaneously you

know you Corner a scorpion it will spontaneously sting itself U First you and then to try to sting itself it the the former doesn't work um predictable stuff you know people in in in U newo uh they know how close they can get to a crocodile before the crocodile launches you know it it's it's very predictable very regular very instinctive and the the the clue that nature is instinctive despite being mental is the stability and the regularity the consistency of the laws of nature I was just about that yeah yeah so all this [ __

] is happening in the world because the over overall mind of nature is not deliberative it it cannot pass moral judgment it's spontaneous so whatever it's doing it's doing it to itself and it doesn't know better we are the only metacognitive eyes through which nature can contemplate itself so we the the responsibility for moral judgment stops with us we are the only part of nature that can do that so it's our responsibility to make moral calls and and even we despite being metacognitive we fail at that consistently we we can take heinous actions like it's

happening in the world right now yeah yeah there's a there's a quote um I believe it's from the Republic on this really interesting bust of Plato there there's a whole story with the Berkeley Plato which that's total sidebar but it's it's a quote that says something to the effect of like the fault lies with man God is blameless and yeah what what you're saying really fits in with this idea that that what we perceive to be right and wrong as uncomfortable as this is for most people to hear is basically a human construct and a

human moral tapestry that we are trying to navigate in the way that's the most Equitable and fair and humanistic and that line is wobbly and changing all the time and is you know at the mercy of people's Egos and and impulses all the time it might be true be careful because the way you were framing it is not the way I intended um okay if we say morals are human constructs um it suggests that morals are arbitrary and there is nothing absolute about morals they might as well be something else like the greatest moral action

could be to decapitate someone else no that's not what I mean I don't mean that morals are arbitrary I would rather say that humans realize morals as opposed to construct morals we are the ones that have the cognitive means to understand what the consequences and implications are of certain actions as far as the suffering of other living beings and and I don't see that as relative or arbitrary it's just a discovery of a fact of reality that nature cannot make except through us we we are the only ones that have the eyes to make that

Discovery but it is a discovery it's not an it's not a capricious invention if you know what I mean um I I I think it is not okay for us to say well morals are arbitrary anyway so let the monkeys kill each other I don't think that I think if the mind of nature did have metacognitive eyes as a whole as opposed to only through us it would stop torturing itself and I think it would much prefer that uh but it doesn't know that it can't see it it doesn't have the mental functions required to

make that realization we have we can realize it as opposed to construct it we can pass the moral judgment that nature would pass if it could but it can't so it's us who have to pass that and even then we fail so I'm not defending some form of moral relativism in which anything is equally you know morally justifiable as anything else no I don't believe that I I actually I would go firmly against that uh um I would say there these are discoveries these are realizations that we can make and nature at large can't and

and once we understand that now the moral buck stops with us because we can do it we have the responsibility to do it right yeah no I don't get me wrong I like that much better than the alternative um but I can see how some people may think that these things only come into being as an epiphenomenon of human activity and are relative to the human position but believe me I like that much better it resonates much better with the platonist in me as well that these are that there really are like these something akin

to an I don't know an absolute form of of things that can be instantiated with higher resolution in the world or not and that it's our responsibility as the beings in this world to try to do that look if it is the same subject looking out from your eyes and from my eyes and the same sub subject that looks out from the quote eyes of nature because that's what analytic idealism implies it's the same core subjectivity experiencing everything from all perspectives that exist uh if that is the case then one person living a lifetime of

suffering is one Universe of suffering so even though the person is small in relation to the physical Universe the universe for that person exists only from that person's perspective and if that person suffers our life then it's a whole universe of suffering so I wouldn't take that lightly um I don't think life is about us but that is not that does not contradict what I just said which is it morally it's an excusable to cause a universe of suffering to the subjectivity of nature when you don't need to when there is no reason for um

just because of some irresp irresponsible thinking abstraction or even sadism um life is not about us in the sense that um we don't have the obligation to be happy we you don't have the obligation to satisfy the whims of the ego um but if somebody else causes us profound suffering unfairly like what's happening to people in Ukraine now right then that's not fine yes their lives are not about them but that doesn't give anybody permission to torture them to destroy their country to to rape their women to to kill uh their man uh you see

what I mean of course so no it's not about us but moral values still play a fundamental role because it's a universe behind every pair of eyesh know even religion tells us that you know God incarnated in the form of Jesus yeah so Jesus was God experiencing the world it's the same subjectivity behind his eyes and it's the same behind your eyes my eyes and the eyes of every Ukrainian and every Ukrainian and Russian on the front lines and that's a huge thing that's enormous you're imposing if you want to use religious language you're imposing

unfair suffering on God yes it's God doing that to itself but still if we are the means through which God can realize what it's doing to itself and stop it then we carry that responsibility yeah that and and as an offshoot of that point that that really points to why there doesn't need to be some equal or almost equal dark force trying to drag down you know the the light Force the god Force it's capable of doing it that to itself through dissociating through becoming so ins sconed in the individual illusion that it sort that

it begins to harm the whole or that it begins to harm other aspects of the whole and patitis said something very similar that essentially you know the product like the the individual is essentially an emanation off of the one that acced all of this stuff until it became enamored with its own reflection and there is no sin or evil necessarily but as you continue to become more obsessed with the physical world and the physical self and the ego you become more capable of doing harm to the collective through that Obsession and disassociation and ultimately doing

harm to yourself because you're orphaning yourself further and further from the source and from understanding what you really are which is like there is nothing worse for a philosopher right or someone who's trying to attain knowledge as you're actually distancing yourself from the ultimate truth by becoming more and more obsessed with the worldly and more and more obsessed with the physical self um I I do the the third thing and we've gotten kind of far away from it now but there were more questions I had and plus this is fertile territory for uh another subject

that you and I are fascinated by um returning to that subject of what are we capable of with our Consciousness in terms of reaching out and what is it possible to reach out to and communicate with via that latent capability that we seem to have um so you know wrapped up in this is still there's still questions about like what is within that disassociated boundary and what is outside of it or you know what is a product of your own personal psyche versus the collective but how do you view things like for instance like a

a DMT entity or something that appears to be autonomous whole ecosystems that appear to be like freestanding hyperdimensional very very unlike our everyday reality do you take seriously the idea that these really could be freestanding predominantly like mental ecosystems or do you think this is probably within the dissociated boundary the individual psyche I think it is conceivable that that there are freestanding mental Realms that we don't peek out under no ordin ordinary circumstances because they don't have a bearing on our ability to survive and reproduce so we didn't evolve cognitively to pick out those Realms

in mental space so to say it's useless for us it would only cognitively overload us um so it is conceivable that there are mental ecosystems beyond our dissociative boundaries where there are semi-autonomous or maybe autonomous complex mental complexes also partly dissociated themselves and uh where they live out their experience that is conceivable um I would be very cautious though of any psychonaut coming back and saying right making that affirmation as a fact um I think for us to be able to say that we would need to have you know a study under controlled conditions many

volunteers um a lot of Prior training um which would be required for anybody to even have a hope to steer their psychedelic experience in a given Direction which for me was impossible I never managed to do that when I when I used psychedelics until several years ago did that for a period of two years as a kind of research exercise I never could steer it it it it chose yeah what I would experience never the other way around so if if it is to be possible at all to make a evidence-based inference that there are

such Realms uh we would have to find a ways to steer psychedelic trips which right now we haven't so I I would be very cautious against these claims for the time being even though I think it is conceivable there is nothing a prior Impossible about it under analytic idealism yeah yeah talk about stretching your metacognitive Horizon that's a big stretch that's like some advanced yoga for sure trying to break bring back anything approaching coherent that is so alien to the way that you typically view reality and associate with reality yet you're just left with this

indelible you know just lifelong imprint that the the mystery is real it's out there you can experience it it absolutely can overwhelm you and beyond that I agree you have to use a lot of caution as to what it is what it isn't What It Wants What what it really consists of how it pres presents itself even and to to to put more resolution in what I was saying that I was talking about with Jeff kple is you know he as you know is deeply obsessed with all of the frontiers of Consciousness and takes them

very seriously but he also like you and like me is very cautious about placing too much weight on the image as it's presented or remembered by the experiencer because that that image like we don't even understand what it is we understand it can be colored by Psychology by Culture by uh whatever bias and predispositions that we have and that leads to all kinds of really other really interesting questions as to like why that image what what is presenting the image why does it show up in that way could it is that uh an ARA of

some part of your own dissociative boundary is that a mask it consciously chose to present in like there's so many interesting questions again when you get to these frontiers of Consciousness that yeah I think psychedelic knows this when it's brought back as literal is very suspicious yeah the Mind manifests itself psychodelic in the mind manifesting yeah it manifest itself symbolically um I at the same time I mean I think most of the figures that appear in our reveres are part of our own Collective our own mind talking to itself and we have internal dissociations as

well we are not a Unity any any therapist with a lot of clinical experience who tell you that that we are collectives and there's still a child in us there's still a teenager in us there are still those bernardos who have been repressed and not heard not listened to they're still there they they all still have their feeling they all still have their emotions um so maybe some of that appears as entities but they are not really objective entities outside us but um there are Realms in psychedelic space where the agencies that seem to appear

are so alien yeah and um and and yet so a agential they they seem really have their own agency um and they seem to find us just as strange as we find them and totally so I I wouldn't poo poo that entirely no sometimes you come back with an experience as you think wow it's like you just happened into a place where you were not expected and everybody who was there looks at you fun like where the hell who the hell are you what are you doing here and and the alienness is so profound um

it's not only at the seemingly physical level but also at a level the level of logic and emotion the alienness is so profound that I can understand that some people find it hard to think that um it is a part of themselves because it's profoundly nonhuman profoundly non anything that we can speak of in language um and I've been maybe once or twice very few times um to to space in the Psychedelic realm in which I had this this feeling that wow this is really something now and it was very different from all my personal

[ __ ] because usually you confront your personal sh [ __ ] in a psychedelic trip everything you repressed all your you know your dark side that you don't want to acknowledge your hidden desires you know your depravity and your guilt and your anxiety and all that stuff um but so you get used to that you get used to identifying your own [ __ ] after a while but then occasionally very occasionally occasionally very rarely you happen upon a space that is totally different and then you go like whoa no what is this now this

this is something yeah so I assume you're aware of the extended state DMT experiments that have been that are being done at Imperial College London now and I have one of my friends actually Alexander biner was a participant in that pilot study and I mean this is a guy with a lot of experience in Altered States but um you know very considerable philosophical grounding um were you ever on the channel um Rebel wisdom yes I I talked to him once or twice twice so you know him yeah and I mean he is pretty convinced after

being you I don't want to put words in his mouth but after a few um many conversations with him and a few of them recorded it's pretty difficult for him to swallow that it's not like that you're not entering a freestanding ecosystem I mean just just like you said you know it's almost like and the way he talks about it it's like going into a rainforest or something you know some stuff is interested in you and wants to run around you and be like hey look at this some stuff doesn't give a [ __ ]

some stuff is uh not particularly friendly but it's feels incredibly vast and teaming with life and he told me that they've now either done a study or are going to do a study that's aimed at what we're talking about trying to put multiple people in the state at the same time and see if there's if there's agreeance or replicability on what's being seen when and I'm just so eager to hear the results of that because there's just so many anecdotal cases of people being in Psy delic States together having what seems like some kind of

boundary breaking mental connection um yeah for me this happened really maybe maybe twice probably only once um most of my psychedelic Journeys were either about the hidden parts of me mhm uh or about the whole so not any particular ecosystem but the whole the cosmic itch that drives the endogenous excitations of Mind At Large um the the unasked questions that drive the universe forward um there is only one consistent entity if you will or agency I prefer the word agency that I have encountered many times and I can't tell you whether it's me or not

um but it was always an agency that um I'll describe it symbolically now that always was very interested in giving me a gift and that gift was not a thing was a way of seeing was a realization and it's very difficult to get a human to wow achieve that realization because of how our cognitive system is wired and what it's optimized for what it has evolved to do so you sort of have to unwind all that stuff you have to one do all of those clampings you know all of those foldings that we have evolved

to have in order to be able to see the gift um and I succeed and and this thing this agency was always trying to help me do that and it and to do that you have to undergo a benign form of deception because what prevents you from seeing it is yourself your patterns of thinking and feeling prevent you from seeing that so you have to be Unwound and this thing is trying to deceive you into unwinding yourself it's a benign form of deception and once that happens then you see the thing and it starts as

a c spherical object with glowing lights but um if you can actually see it then it's not an object it's thought it's emotion it's you and other itself and world it's the Panacea it's the template the pattern underlying everything everything it it is it is everything this sounds very this sounds very Hermes like like the thing that a it is a Beyond orgasmic experience um so throughout most of my trips I I always sensed the present presence of this agency um and in a few I I I could see it I I could see the

thing wow and it is my blowing it's a it's a level of delight and and Clarity that uh is unfathomable you cannot bring that back it's it's an experience of the moment and it and it belongs in that realm and in that realm alone you don't get to bring it back the only thing you bring it back is a it's profound gratitude um that such a thing exists in nature now even if you say it's a form of Illusion fine under idealism everything is mental so there is a sense in which you could say everything

is an illusion but if it is so it's as real as an illusion as as real an illusion as this right now because it's experienced as real and at the end of the day that's that's all that's all we have right there's no reality outside mind um so it it to me it has been comforting many times to come back and know that such a thing whatever it is exists in nature it's very reassuring and and it's delightful it's a it's a form of art beyond anything conceivable that's incredible and I mean you know from

like a Yung would have a feel day with this I mean a vision of a of this like spherical agency that feels like this boundary transcending completion you know it sounds very Soul likee or Dion like or like I said Hermes like this thing that sort of transcends boundaries that are normally not able to be transcended but it you know it's like Beyond whatever that personal dissociative boundry is but it's also within it at the same time and you normally do not have the ability to wrap your mind around that in any way or even

witness it in any way but under the right circumstances it's possible to have a sort of like absolutely Mercurial encounter with this thing um yeah it is um it is not a product of me um is not a product of Bernardo castrop now whether it's outside my dissociative boundary or imminent in it I I would tend to say it exists in a form in which this distinction does not hold we cannot think of reality in this spatial terms anymore um at the level of that that gift that thing uh it's a kind of um it's

a singularity it's a self-recursive singularity it's like a key to existence the key to all complexity it is that out of which everything unfolds it's the folded form of all of existence um the folded form with the inherent templates the inherent dispositions uh of existence that generate everything if you allow it to unfold so it's a self self recursive Singularity that creates everything out of itself and at that level because it's a singularity you know it makes no sense to say is it inside my dissociative bound right right or is it outside is it imminent

in everything or is it geographically located in mental space all of this stuff collapses so that's why I never wrote about it it's impossible to write about it yeah it's like it's like an encounter with news or logos or anything that is just so beyond language that any language you try to fo onto it is actually sort of damaging the the purity of of whatever you experienced yeah those experiences are just so valuable that it is a it's not something to bring back from a psychedelic trip I mean if you did psychedelics like I did

as a research Enterprise I find it Preposterous to do psychedelics for fun they're not fun they're very hard yeah uh so you do it as a kind of you know study um um so there is a lot in my trips that um I had this sense know this is fish I can bring back to the tribe like Makenna used to say you know stuff that you can bring back but the gift was never that it doesn't have that ethos of part being part of your curriculum it's Grace every now and then you're granted Grace for

the sake of it it doesn't have the higher purpose of you writing about it or how it's going to change your life no it's just great that's all there's nothing more to it it's a numinous gift yeah a numinous gift yeah I love that um since we talked last we we did Riff on this topic in our last conversation but it was just before you released your article on the UFO UAP topic so I didn't get to ask you this but and you from my memory you do bring up high weirdness as a unavoidable part

of this conversation but and you kind of distinguish it from the nuts and bolts phenomena but I don't recall if you brought up this sort of idea of mental agencies as potentially being the source of some of this phenomena I did did you okay in it's in an old book called meaning in absurdity I explicitly did just that so look I I have been very disappointed with what's going on in the U world this year um disappointed to the point of disgust of just closing certain accounts that were well I don't want to talk about

it I'll leave it at that uh I'm disappointed the point of disgust so um if I were to maintain anything about my views on high stranger phenomenon I would say it's the high Strang part that I think holds water that I think is um doubtless you cannot just ignore the reports of tens of thousands hundreds of thousands um of people and those reports carry the Hallmarks of Truth and I'm not going to share publicly what I consider those Hallmarks to be otherwise next week everybody every report will will have that uh those Hallmarks but I

have my private understanding of what the Hallmarks are um and and I apply them for instance even Alexander has the Hallmarks Anita mojani has the Hallmarks yeah um certain people in the UA UAP and alien abduction so-called lay layer alien abduction discourse have the Hallmarks a bunch of others don't um so I take High Strang seriously now the recent nuts and boats who I did take seriously until last year H until some point this year I take less seriously now there are some in my VI in my mind very concerning um development very concerning material

very concerning actions and uh man it frankly disgusts me so I I I checked out from that like are you are sorry just to clarify are you leaning more toward that feeling like for lack of a better term aop or something that's being co-opted for propaganda purposes or uh an agenda beyond the truth or what is discusting you well I wouldn't go religious about it um I don't think it it's appropriate but um I question now the motivations behind a of what's happening and if I have to give you a word I would give you

the word misinformation mhm so right now as far as the nuts and boats part of the thing is concerned I don't know what to think yeah and um and I realized that um I cannot know what to think right and uh so I I dropped that ball I don't want to be part of that um you know I I literally closed very special high security accounts that that I had and and shows you to the the extent of my concern yeah um but the the high strangeness part that is real right yeah and it's interesting

that you brought up you know with the Hallmarks you brought up people who are famous for being near-death experiencers people who they didn't have a you know ET experience per se they had a dying experience it via which they went through all kinds of archetypal um encounters with with other and or or with the the extra beyond the physical and I also I mean I know of cases that are more aligned with a UAP UFO Community where people's experiences are closer to that for sure um and I don't know if you want to get into

specific examples of people that you think have gotten a similar message but it's interesting to me in and of itself that you equated it with near-death experiences I think that that says a lot and one thing I'm I'm not personally sure about I obviously haven't had a near-death experience but one thing that I'm not sure about is what I think about the overlap between my kind of like heroic dose experiences with potentially other agencies or Consciousness systems or whatever you want to call it and what I think that says about this phenomenon like I would

love to have some sort of overarching cohesive narrative that it is all a product of the same which ultimately I guess in in idealism it is a product of the same thing but the foundation of analytic idealism is that everything is one there is one Consciousness we are disassociations of that one Consciousness but beyond that between our disassociation and the fundamental reality you must entertain the idea that there are many other dissociations or or like hierarchies or something right like and and maybe that maybe we're just peering into an absolute ocean of disassociations or what

you could call beings and they're just going to present in all kinds of ways and that's what the the truth beyond our boundary is is that there's this this panoply of other ways that Consciousness presents itself and that we're beginning to scratch the surface of whatever that is I I am with the spirit of of what you said I I would only not agree with one specific part which you said which was U between us and this world there must be other levels hierarchy of dissociations I don't know that because we have a physical appearance

so the rest of this universe so if there is anything in between I would expect it too to have a physical appearance and we don't find it it's it's not you know at hand um but um it is entirely conceivable that this universe is just one segment of Mind At Large and um it's the segment in which we exist and and then there are part universes not everan parallel universes I think that's [ __ ] because the motivation to postulate that is nonsensical lacks all empirical grounding it's a theoretical fantasy now the even though evation

motiv ver is I think is ungrounded and therefore should be discarded um that doesn't mean that all the the entire notion of parallel universes in general not parallel univers that arise because both possibilities of a measurement are actually true in a different parallel universe no I'm not talking about exploding C zillions of parallel universes that pop into existence out of nothing every time two Quantum systems interact that's not what I'm talking about I'm not talking about mushrooming parallel physical universes I'm talking about parallel universes that may exist at all times we don't have the power

to create or destroy them by an observation and they will not look physical to us us because other rules apply maybe even other rules of logic because logic is axiomatic right um so it is conceivable that there are parallel universes of this latter kind um which we have no access to because there is some kind of universal level of dissociation splitting these bubble universes from each other and it is conceivable that during a very high dose psychedelic trip it is conceivable I'm not saying that I have reasons to believe that but it is conceivable that

in a high do psychedelic trip in which most of the dynamic structure of mind is just dissolved because that's what psychedelics do that um that one could catch a glimpse of what's Happening happening in the Next Room in the Palace of the universal mind so to say because what confines us here are certain cognitive structures that's that's the only way you can create structure in a mind is structures of cognition structures of Association dissociation representation and re-representation and so forth so if you dismantle those structures that create this universe uh in which we are rooted

uh itts to reason that you go to a a level of mentation which is so raw in which you can get a catch a glimpse of whatever else is going on in the Palace of mind yeah so that is conceivable yes and the the The Telltale sign of that would be that not only is the physics different but the logic is different that um Aristotelian axioms don't apply I think Aristotelian at least four of them apply to this universe so if I'm having a discussion on analytic philosophy I will be largely an aristotlean I'm actually

an intuitionist intuitionism accepts four of Aristotelian of the Aristotelian axioms and rejects one which is the law of the excluded middle uh which says that things are either true or false not both and not neither well I reject that I I think I see truth as a as a construct you have to have an example of it to prove that it exists as opposed to proving that it cannot be false that's just abstraction you see so I'm an intuitionist in this universe but I'm keenly aware that if we are not talking about this universe we're

not having an analytic discussion we having a loser you know Frontiers uh discussion right uh um then I would say The Telltale sign of these other Realms in the overall Palace of mind would be that Al logic does not apply that the the expectations about what makes sense and what doesn't would be very different in other words absurd yeah stress yeah or at the very least not linear and not subject to the way that things work in everyday consensus reality um yeah I mean because that's one one of the things you know that led so

I didn't tell you this yet but it's we're getting deep into the conversation so I may as well uh throw this monkey wrench in the conversation um I didn't know what to think about outof body experiences before going on this Retreat that I went on and I did not expect to have an outof Body Experience on this retreat in fact they basically tell you day one a lot of you are here because you read Robert Monroe's book you want to have an out of- body experience that is possible the likelihood that you're going to have

one on this Retreat is maybe 5% it's probably not going to happen um it could happen but it probably won't as the week went on I would have probably ranked the vividness and weight of the experiences that I was personally having in probably like the bottom half of the of the group you know some people were getting into very archetypally rich territory with like narratives and you know figures that for anybody who's into Yung or sort of like mythopoetic symbolic imagery it's just like oh my God I wish I was having this experience and I

wasn't you know my my experiences were a lot more ephemeral and good but not not as profound as some however on the last full day of the retreat we were doing this long long meditation and I experienced something that was like some kind of weird boundary between extraordinarily extraordinary extraordinary Lucidity in a dream where I I physically felt as real as I'm in this room right now but I made the realization while I was in that state that I couldn't be in that room like something it finally dawned on me that I didn't know what

the room was I didn't know where I was I didn't know why I was in the room and then when I came to the realization that I'm not in the room I'm in the check unit the check unit is the thing you meditate in it's like a bed it's a blacked out uh bed basically that you're in um so as soon as I made the realization that I wasn't in that room I was in the check unit metacognitively I came back to the bed but as I started to try to move my physical body my

non- physical body started moving and I can't explain it to you any other way than you do just have this ability to unlock what feels like a non-physical version of your physical body where there's sensation uh to a degree it's not quite the same but it is sensation there is sensory experience there is uh the world looks the same basically like I had this idea that it would look psychedelic or different or weird it didn't like it really was just like I'm physically separated or I'm I'm separated from my physical body in some other kind

of body and I'm still dealing with the ontological uh implications of that experience because I've never you know through psychedelics through meditation through anything I've never had that experience before where it just it feels exactly like reality except for that you have this non-physical body that's capable of all sorts of [ __ ] um and and given that it's tempting what's dangerous about it is also what's exciting about it it provides this new Avenue potentially for exploration into I don't know what like you know I I don't know what's really possible to go out there

and do because it was very short it was very scary it all happened within like probably a minute or two but it does make one wonder if this is part of that journey to getting into these other rooms that you can attain where you can be both conscious and you can avoid the sort of aristot Alan logic that holds you down in everyday reality like I don't know but now this has ignited a whole new potential Avenue of investigation and I don't know if this is one that you've gone down the rabbit hole of personally

or interested in have thought thought on but I had to run it by can can I ask you just a quick question was there any inconsistency between the physical world you know under ordinary conditions in the world as you perceived when you were in that external state was there any inconsistency at all I wish I could give you a solid answer on that but because I was in a basically blacked out room it's so hard to know but it felt exact like I knew exactly where I was like the proportions of everything felt the same

but there's a felt you know there's like everything I don't know if you've read Journeys out of the body by Robert Monroe or anybody else who's a well-known experiencer but it's like it's just a moment where holy [ __ ] like everything that they describe is actually the just just the way it is like the the rushing of energy the buzzing the the felt sense of levity in all of those things I remember all of those things and I remember having a sense that everything seems just like you're there and it's just completely real but

I can't tell you for sure if everything was precisely the same because I was just in a blackedout room and I was I was less than a than a baby with water wings in that sense I was basically terrified and flailing and just like I just want to get back immediately you want to get back into your body because it just feels I mean for lack of a better term it feels wrong it feels like holy [ __ ] I'm not supposed to be like this and that also apparently is normal like you you need

to associate yourself get comfortable in that space before you can do a whole lot so for me all I know is I popped out and I immediately just wanted to get back in was was basically my experience the only experience I ever had that comes remotely close to this um was a dream uh was sleep once this was years ago um and um I was having an intense dream and then I woke up mhm I woke up in my bed where I expected to be was metacognitive I was thinking about the dream and then I

was restless so I decided I'm going to stand up and just walk around the house a little bit just to sort of know get the fluids moving so I stand up and went into the other rooms in the second floor where I sleep um and then I woke up yeah yeah yeah and then I woke up for real yeah and I was like holy cow uh so I had I had become metacognitive in the dream with this symbolism that I woke up from the dream but the waken up was a metad dream um so I

was having a dream within a dream so I woke up into the actual dream and I went around the house um and the second time I woke up then now now I woke up for real and uh started playing the tape back in my mind and I realized that there were small inconsistencies between the house I experienced then and my house it as it actually was at the time uh so I the the the for me the the vulgar when I say vulgar I don't mean it in a pejorative way I mean the non-sophisticated explanation

face value explanation that uh some sort of physically bounded Soul popped out of my body and went around my house as it actually is it didn't cut it uh at least for my specific experience because there were this slight inconsistencies it's like my mind was constructing the house the best it could but it couldn't do a perfect uh perfect job um so um skeptically or you know if I want to be rigorous I would chuck that down to just a dream a dream with layers which is not usual you can wake up within a dream

we call it lucid dreaming uh you can have dreams within dreams you can have a psychedelic trip within a dream I did have it once yeah um but uh what I struggle I mean I take experience very seriously so somebody like you telling me what you just stoed um I'm not the kind of guy who would just say oh I would dismiss it no I can't I I I'm too honest to be able to do that um but I have a difficulty with it theoretical difficulty which is now if we can see without eyes smell

without a nose Touch without skin then why the hell did we evolve all this stuff over four billion years you know why are people blind yeah and can't see I mean if there is some kind of spirit that uh can perceive without the body then what what the hell do we have the body for why did it why is there such overwhelming amount of evidence that our sensory apparatus has Ed very painstakingly uh over hundreds of millions of years I mean how do I Square this circle how do I reconcile these two things and that's

the struggle for me yeah no I have all the same questions and and all I know is that for me it was like such a visceral felt experience that it was not it was just so unlike anything else I've ever experienced like I said even let me draw this to like a lot of what you're doing in those meditative States you can tell that it's deeply tied into the imaginal right and I'm not I'm not dismissing the imagination as not interesting and possibly even you know epistemologically interesting in terms of it it is a way

for you to learn things that of consequence that aren't just like you know the the Babbling of a brain or whatever but this was not like I'm I'm imagining myself in some place this was like something that you're feeling with your entire being and it is like an overwhelmingly hyperreal experience and to be frank I that's not even what I was the most hoping for from this experience I wasn't like man I'd really love to have an OB I I was more so trying to commune with what you were describing in your most profound psychedelic

experiences like I wanted to have a felt communion with you know for lack of a better term the Dion the capital S self the the thing that Psychonauts know what I'm talking about and maybe some people really interested in esoteric philosophy know what I'm talking about but but the thing behind yourself that you can gain a sense of is there under the right circumstances I I wanted to have that experience I I did not have an over in experience of that on this retreat at all instead I got the thing everybody else wanted um but

but anyway yeah so I have all the same questions as you and I've been thinking about it and one of the things that one of the ideas I'm playing with I mean obviously there's the whole you know doctrine of subtle bodies that goes that's across many cultures I do think that's one absolute possibility but the other one might be is that we when we're metacog nating we only ever do so under the pretense of like I'm Michael or I'm Bernardo so would makes sense that if you are self-referential you are metac cogna and thinking about

yourself maybe you're so habituated to being in that form that that's the form that you think you're in but maybe if you're more Adept in these states maybe you can be whatever you want maybe you can not have a body maybe you can you know there there's so many stories from Antiquity about like these um what they call these Yates these healer seers in ancient Greek lore that you know they'd go down into caves and then they would fly around as a bird or they would you know whatever you know we we think that's imposs

but maybe in these states of pure Consciousness if you can learn how to enter them maybe they're not Preposterous at all maybe you just need to it's just like learning to swim it's just a skill that we all have latent I don't know oh my my main difficulty is how can you perceive the world whatever form you have whether you're a bird or a human being doesn't matter how can you perceive the world if your eyes are closed and you are inside a dark room um I don't dismiss experience again I don't dismiss it especially

when thoughtful people undergo The Experience I'm I'm too honest to just say well this doesn't line up with my theoretical thinking therefore I would choose to to not hear the I'm not like that I can't help it um but yeah there is a major theoretical difficulty here we are wrong about something we take for granted if if if these things can happen totally yeah I don't know I don't know how you gain a it does seem like there's something about having a perspective that's tied to physicality that's tied to this whole apparatus that we have

but I just I mean I just don't know I I could give you lots of potential like metaphysical ideas and you know a whole lineage of esoteric ideas but those are just ideas you know I I don't I don't know other than based on my own experience which is very limited albeit it was very impactful um and I don't know if this is just wish wishful thinking on my part but we're you know you kind of innate overlapped some of the high weirdness with near-death experiences and one of the things that people seem to experiences

that people seem to have in every near-death experience is what sounds like an outof body experience at first and then maybe it could undergo some kind of metamorphosis as they go through those experiences but again maybe this is wishful thinking but it it seems like well why wouldn't we just take the most direct answer as the most throbbing possibility in that it's just real like that's just how it is you you can have that experience if the right set of circumstances unfold if you like I really feel like I just tripped on a banana peal

into it like I don't feel like I did anything particularly special I don't think I was you know more clever than anyone else I absolutely just stumbled into it and I think that there are these weird extreme states of Consciousness where you're for me like playing on the borders between like sleeping waking conscious unconscious metac cogna not metacog nating uh hypnogogic not hypnogogic and you're just going in and out of all these borders I think you can just sort of get out of sync like with these different struct like layers of yourself for lack of

a better term but maybe it just is what it seems like it is across all of these different forms of high weirdness if so then we have to question naturalism I'm I'm not prepared yet how how so because it would imply there is that there is something deliberate and constructed about the whole thing and the amount the weight of the evidence in the contrary is is massive it's overwhelming I'm not discarding the possibility I'm I'm just thinking out loud with you um psychologically at least as far as my ability to communicate and talk about things

as far as my public Persona is concerned I'm not prepared to abandon naturalism I think there are smaller steps we can make without abandoning naturalism reductionism rationalism and and realism not physical realism but some form of real realism and I would rather publicly take those steps first make sure that we sort of um get comfy in that new state in which you know physicalism is recognized as a historical error which is what it is um and from that new launch point we now we can start getting more sophisticated but I'm I'm not prepared to I

understand start thinking about you know this as a deliberate system that was put together metacognitively by some kind of agency and I'm not prepared to go there yet I may I may of course I wonder about these things in my private thinking um but I don't sense I'm anywhere near being in a position in in which I could argue for this which of course doesn't eliminate the experience you had which is a fact of reality um but I yeah I try to make sense of it under naturalis in an essay on my blog I called

it the Fun funon World hypothesis the hypothesis would be that you are not actually perceiving the world as it is when you are in that state you're perceiving a collective memory of the world of the world interesting and that does not need to part with naturalism that that has to do with the yungan hypothesis of the collective unconscious we experience this world those experience become memories memories exist in the collective unconscious they don't have physical correlates we know that more or less even scientifically now at least we have strong indication for that um and therefore

when you are in a less dissociated State you gain access to that cluster of collective memories in which there is a model of the physical world and that's what you then perceive a sort of a collective inherited model of the physical world um which may not always be exactly like the physical world because memories are not perfect and especially when you have a cluster of memories like this and you try to extrapolate from what is actually there things can go skewed and and moreover that resonates with my own dream experience um it was just like

that you know it was my house but not quite you know my mind couldn't reconstruct that very precisely um so that's my working hypothesis uh for it thus far I I I I would immediately understand if you told me no this this is not sufficient to explain my own experience and then my Temptation would then be to say well then I don't want to get into this for now no I get it I I absolutely get it I mean the only way that it could be falsifiable one way or the other would be to in

that state ascertain some information that really is in the world somewhere and apparently this is like what remote viewers are doing apparently I mean it's remote doing and out of body are different things but they're both examples of like somehow extending your perception beyond your physical limitations um that that could still work even under the Fantan World hypothesis so long as no element of your experience could be deemed to have never been experienced by anybody else for instance there is the the famous ND Year from many years ago uh who was blind and uh during

the nde had an outof body experience and saw a tennis shoe in the roof of the hospital um that would still be um consistent with the phantom world hypothesis if the person who put that shoe there knew and perceived that shoe there because then the end the year would be latching onto that element of the phantom world that corresponds to that person's memories um that would be the idea um what you could do to refute the phantom world hypothesis is to by construct create an experiment in which some physical arrangement would beide would be decided

randomly by a machine um and the result of that physical arrangement can think of it as the position of certain objects in the room whatever that decision would be made after that space is completely darkened so you know that no conscious being has ever perceived the disposition of that Arrangement because it was decided randomly by a computer after you have blacked everything out after you left that room and it put a lock on it and then somebody would be able to during an obbe get into that room and and correctly say what the disposition is

because then you know nobody perceived that before so now it's truly veridical you're not exploring a memory grounded model of the world uh you would you would you would be able to refute uh that hypothesis but this would yeah this is not practical for the time being I think yeah that's interesting and and it also shines a light on something that I think is interesting that we haven't directly said yet is that there is a difference between Consciousness and memory and you actually get into this in your book under the pretense of like being under

anesthesia and not forming new memories but still holding on to the assumption that Consciousness is still ongoing with continuity but it's just not remembered continuity and I think that's an idea a lot of people have trouble wrapping their minds around is that memory is not Consciousness and and that in of itself is is crazy because we can't separate ourselves from memory like the only reason I can have this conversation is because of memory the only reason I have anything to talk to you about is because of memory yeah if somebody comes and says I was

unconscious this time the best you can say with confidence is I have no memory of being of of being conscious during this time that's all you can say you can never say you were unconscious um so yeah yeah yeah yeah and the idea that there is stuff going on at all times that you are participating in I mean maybe again we have to expand the Horizon of what people normally think of as you or yourself but you are participating in those states where you think that you're not conscious and that that is something that you

can really break your brain on and it's one of those things that I viscerally confronted I think at that Retreat is like playing on those borders like going into those borders multiple times a day you really start to gain a familiarity in that territory where you're like oh I'm like right on some kind of weird interesting edge here and on one side of the edge is like everything I know and the other side of the edge feels familiar but it also feels dark and I can just go into that at any moment and you can

come out of that dark with a sense that something was just happening but it immediately goes away and it's it's incredibly interesting but it's also I don't know that sounds it also sounds kind of dualistic which is not what I'm trying to get at but oh you can have dualisms within idealism they they just cannot be substance dualism right but you can have within idealism a dualism of self and world you can have a dualism of good and bad there are many dualisms that are possible Within idealism and Under the Umbrella of idealism the only

thing that it excludes is substance dualism is when you say there is something that is substantively mental or mental inessence and something that is of Another Kind another kind that is non mental well that that wouldn't be consistent with idealism but other forms of dualisms would I was talking the other day with a friend who is a very well-known fairly famous uh character I'm not going to say this his name because it it is his prerogative to decide when he comes public with this idea but he shared with me that um yes I am a

as far as substance is concerned I am an idealist I am with you but after 40 years looking at all this stuff you know in science and philosophy uh I think dualism holds within and under idealism and I told him I'm I'm open to that possibility so as long as we are not talking about substance dualism there are many dualisms of configurations in in this field of subjectivity that reality is so yes we can still talk about dualism is is he a Nobel prize winning physicist I'm not going to say anything anymore okay yeah I

don't know for 40 years just immediately brought a very uh small cast of characters to mine but anyway on the note of that I mean that's another example of this just coming such a long way from the time that you started this journey toward being this public intellectual that is explicating this idea that is pretty rebellious to the mainstream way that we approach information science thinking about reality and it does seem like there's major inroads being made in in many many ways one way that I'm not sure how it's going to take shape but I

I do have this foggy sense that it will occur I just don't know how or what it will look like and I know this is something Don Hoffman really wants to see happen too is there being like practical applications like like breakthroughs that are going to occur that will yield not just understandings but Technologies like deeper penetration into the nature of reality that yields stuff you know like things that that push Humanity forward in ways that are not theoretical and I'm wondering if you have thoughts on how that could or will occur what that could

look like I think itth can and will but before I say that let me preface it by saying that that's not the point of philosophy true the point of philosophy is to inform Our Lives not to have practical applications practical applications are for Science and engineering a philosophy can have a profoundly transformative effect without any practical applications if the narrative you entertain in your mind as true regarding the nature of reality and the nature of self U that can lead you to nihilism and depression if you think it's offer nothing and mind is an ephemeral

epiphenomenon of brain activity or it can imbue your life with irresistable meaning and significance whatever your fate turns out to be and instead of of having you depressed and in the throws of nihilism you could be a vivacious excited person drinking life with gusto yeah uh so philosophy can have a transformative effect without any practical applications and then that's what it's meant to do it's meant to inform us about how to live life that's the ultimate goal everything else is a means to this end philosophy doesn't address a mean things to this end IT addresses

the end the end goal of it all how to live a good life a profitable useful uh uh um natural exciting life now having said that um we always even as scientists and technologists technologists less technologists are formidably open-minded and and agnostic about metaphysics I know because I I am also one of them I build stuff I build processors and computers and all this stuff AI stuff um but in science uh it it is a very human thing that you have a sort of philosophical operating system underlying how you go about the work of doing

science there is a set of things you consider plausible a set of things you consider implausible a set of hidden assumptions you make about how the world works and that's philosophy it's an implicit philosophy it's not science it should not limit scientific inquiry but because science is done by humans it does our hidden assumptions do limit Us in contemplating what experiments to perform what hypothesis are plausible enough to postulate and investigate uh what areas of Investigation to pursue because if your philosophy your hidden implicit philosophy unexamined philosophy tells you for instance that there cannot be

such a as S effect because minds are constructed by brains and they are separated by the skull um then you will not investigate that right because you you emotionally you will feel that as a waste of time and you will not feel compelled to do it so our intrinsic intrinsic philosophies as scientists um do have a scientific impact even though they shouldn't um if science as a whole um maybe not necessarily Embrace idealism because science should not Embrace any metaphysics uh but at least considers idealism as plausible then there are many Avenues of investigation that

would be pursued which we haven't pursued at all so far for instance um science has established that this thing called the placebo effect exists but U we don't investigate it further we don't look for ways to leverage it as a means to cure people because people do get cured by the placebo effect and we we think it's just a discombobulating curiosity uh we know it exists but we don't know what to do about it well under idealism you would know what to do about it because under idealism the entire body is the appearance of mental

processes so of course the placebo effect works it's mental to mnal causation and you would start asking yourself how do I maximize it how do I direct the effect how do I exploit the effect how do I trigger it um how far can I go into developing treatments that exploit this mindt mind causation that appears to us as physiology that appears to us as physical stuff um and we don't do that today we just feel amused when we produce an experiment that proves that the placebo effect works you know you can use hypnosis to cure

skin warts skin warts fall off wow now skin warts are caused by a virus it's a it's as physical as it gets it's as separate from your mental activity as it gets it's on the surface of the skin and it's caused by a foreign organism how can hypnosis make your warts fall off well lo and behold it can it can happen um and of course you know plenty of documented spontaneous remission in cancer because of yeah changes people make not only in their in their physical Lifestyles but in their mental attitude uh so what's going

on there how does mental attitude interact with cancer there is an old study that suggests that repressed anger correlates with cancer so other ideal is all of this stuff would now be scientifically explored in a systematic way without this vulgar superficiality with which we talk about the placebo effect you know the only place where the placebo effect is taken seriously is in the pharmaceutical industry because to approve a drug you have to prove that the drug is much more effective well more effective than Placebo and Placebo is getting more and more effective in the in

as as we go forward wow yeah and so to approve drugs is becoming more and more difficult because the sugar pill is doing better and better uh and that's a problem for the pharmaceutical industry because you cannot patent or sell a sugar pill but you can patent or sell some monster out of the laboratory which I don't poo poo by the way I I I use drugs um I use psych I use amitryptiline which is an anti-depressant I use it in um subclinical doses because it turns out to alleviate tinius U you know this ghost

sound in the ears I have very severe tines andina reduces it but I even though a psychiatrist would say that's the only fact you cannot have anti anxiety effect at the dose you take well I think it does have that effect too maybe other things changed in my life as well maybe no maturity and I turned 50 maybe that has an anti-anxiety effect as well but um I take drugs seriously because I think pill is the image of a mental process yeah and when you swallow that pill you are bringing that mental process into your

dissociative boundary and of course it will have a mentalo mnal positive effect and you will feel different that's why pills work as far as mental conditions are concerned um but anyway that that that's only one of the Avenues of exploration it's um how do you approach physical physiological illness from a mental perspective that door is wide open under idealism in addition to surgery and pills another practical um effect um could be technology um if there is such a thing as um I'm not even going to touch on out of body experiences because of my theoretical

prejudices but things like um telepathy and um and um when you see beyond what you can see in space like when you see around or orp or I don't know yeah extra sensory perception there is a there is a nice technical name for it but I forgot um so if these things exist and under idealism they may exist because under idealism the only reason we are not telepathic and seeing around corners all the time is the dissociative boundary uh it would be dysfunctional from an evolutionary perspective to see around corners because a tiger in China

or in India right now would be freaking you out here that that's of no good use right true yeah uh um you better perceive only the the neighborhood around you in which phenomena can have a effect on your ability to survive um you also have to identify with your body otherwise you you don't bother to eat or to run away from the tiger so that's the reason why ESP and telepathy are not happening all the time and they should be because everything is in one mind well they don't because we are dissociated that's what life

is life has is a dissociation and has has evolved to be as dissociated as possible within reason you still want to see what's in front of you um but nothing no processing nature is perfect so under idealism under certain circumstances it's possible the dissociative boundary weakens enough that you can have these effects telepathy and seeing around corners um if that is reasonable under idealism you investigate it and you don't investigate that using only a few million dollars per year granted by nonprofit organizations to researchers that are brave enough to not care about how they were

perceived no you do mainstream research on it on it because it's bloody useful it's very useful if we could create a technology that plays with our brain activity in such a way that maximizes the effect I would like to have that I would like to have a telepathic helmet yeah I would like to have a remote viewing goggle right uh it's not going to have cameras that's not how it's going to work no it's going to play around maybe through transcranial magnetic stimulation maybe through uh concomitant uh drugs um it will sort of interface with

your brain function with your mental function which looks like brain function in a manner that selectively weakens your dissociative boundary without affecting your health without getting rid of your upper bounding entropy I would like that to to exist right I think militaries would like that yeah to exist it would be great a great spine too um police departments would like that because you don't need the lie detector anymore you don't even need an interrogation anymore right if you can enhance an effect like telepathy um so that would change too but again none of this what

philosophy is about these are bonuses very significant bonuses but bonuses nonetheless philosophy is about informing how we live life yeah that's a great point and all those are great points and I too would like to have those things at our disposal but I'm also I mean my mind obviously everybody listening to this and and you know that I'm open to these things but there's a huge difference in being intellectually open to things and having an experience that really throws it in your face as you can put the intellect in the way of this and your

typical way of seeing the world that you had before in the way of this because as you are well aware you can construct defenses against things that don't gel with your preconceived notions and and I can do that with this experience that I had you know I can absolutely be like it was a weird dream it was a weird you know mixture of dreaming and being but it's not what it seemed like it was and knowing that now Beyond just intellectually my mind's way more open to these things than it was before in a in

a much more visceral way and that has my I mean it it really feels like a significant sort of uh I don't know part of the way that we look at reality that is off limits according to the old way of of viewing things but to your point like the more we get used to the idea of idealism the more Avenues open up for real exploration and I think that that's just so massively huge and we owe you personally a big Deb of gratitude for that Bernardo because you're one of the people who's ows me

anything well I'll I'll say it gladly I'll give you your flowers I am so happy you're you're you're in the world doing what you're doing I'm loving the content um on Asia's Channel too it's really really good um yeah I have to upload something tonight still it's my last task of the day fabulous Fab fabulous well thank you for hanging out I'll let you get to that um I could talk to you all day but it's over two hours and uh it's always fun it's always fun and congrats on the new book I'll I'll tell

people about it in the intro but if you want to tell people about it before we turn off feel free yeah it's has just been published end of October it's called analytic idealism in a nutshell and it's a sort of straightforward straight to the point Grand summary of analytic idealism in very few pages compared to some of my other books it's very thin um it's sort of I'm I'm trying to close the analytic idealism story now so if you haven't read any of my books well read this one this is the one if you if

you're going to read only one of my books read this one beautiful well thank you again and I I always pleasure thanks for having me over