Were Israel’s Actions in the Gaza War Justified? Eylon Levy vs. Mehdi Hasan

[Music] welcome to open to debate I'm John Donan and we are gathered for something remarkable here a meeting between two men who disagree fiercely across an issue that has fiercely divided so many of us within families and on college campuses and for that alone for their courage and coming to the same stage let us congratulate them at the outset because we know how rare it is in our currently hyperpolarized culture for opposing Viewpoint to be heard spoken aloud and in competition with each other under the same roof but that is the essence of debate and

that is the value that we promote it open to debate and so it is an honor to be here at New York's venerable Adler Hall a Crown Jewel of the New York Society for ethical culture where we cannot and we will not forget how the war in Gaza is steeped in pain and outrage and fear and anger it's why this debate matters and it's why it is natural to take sides even necessary to take sides but listening to the other side which these Debaters will be called to do with one another and which I hope

you will do as members of the audience just by being here that may be a first step at least in understanding how and why and exactly why we disagree the frame the question we have framed for this purpose and that we will hear debated tonight is this were Israel's actions in the war in Gaza Justified let's meet our Debaters answering yes to the question were Israel's actions in the Gaza War Justified I want to welcome Elon Levy thank you Alon you are the uh if you can St with me here you're the you are you're

the former spokesperson for Israel in the October 7th War co-founder of the Israeli citizen spokesperson's office host of the state of a Nation Podcast welcome to open the debate and here to argue no to the question where Israel's actions in the gods of War Justified I want to welcome medy Hassen Med you founder editor-in Chief and CEO Zeto host of alzer's head-to-head and award-winning journalist welcome to open to debate thank you for having me and gentlemen thank each of you for being here tonight let's start it with a handshake and then we can begin the

debate glad to take this offline thank [Applause] you so let's get to our opening statements we want each of you to take a few minutes to explain why you're answering yes or no to our question were Israel's actions in the Gaza War Justified and when I say were I just want to be clear we chose that word to talk about um Israel's immediate actions after what happened on October 7th up through today it's it's everything it's not this moment it's not that moment it's the course of things um Elon you are up first your answer

to the question is yes the floor is yours please tell us why on October 7th Mass perpetrated an act of genocide against the people of Israel its death squads invaded with a clear mission to Massacre as many people as they could as sadistically as they could and to take survivers as hostages Hamas had a strategy to lure Israel into an urban war and generate enough suffering that the world would pressure Israel to leave Hamas alone to do it again and again Hamas slaughtered 1,200 people on that day at a music festival and in their beds

they cremated little children alive they perpetrated barbaric acts of sexual violence they beheaded tortured and mutilated their victims alive and dead and they did it with Glee and then they took over 250 hostages including little children par raided them through the streets of Gaza to jering crowds hid them in tunnels and homes where they are being starved and tortured and raped and executed it was the deadliest terror attack in world history after 911 the bloodiest Massacre of Jews since the Holocaust and the opening shot of the Iranian regime's Regional war against Israel on seven fronts

at this point Israel faced a choice as Hamas immediately threatened to do it again and again until Israel was destroyed to do nothing or to do something both would have consequences doing nothing meant letting Hamas get away with October 7th leave it free to do it again and again only this time with thousands of dangerous terrorists released from jail and with its popularity skyrocketing that's not an option doing doing something meant targeting hamas's terrorists in accordance with international law in order to dismantle their ability to wage war and live out that threat to do it

again and again that was the choice that Israel faced after October 7th now after October 7th that campaign to bring Hamas down and bring the hostages home was the only moral response Hamas exists for the sake of war and for the sake of Peace it must go let me explain Israel's strategy Israel's strategy is to get civilians out of Harm's Way so that it can Target hamas's terrorist infrastructure under their feet hamas's strategy is to keep civilians In Harm's Way so that it can use them to Shield their military infrastructure Israel left Gaza in 2005

and never wanted to go back but Hamas seized power two years later started firing rockets at our cities and rigged gaza's Urban landscape for war they dug a network of military tunnels one and a half times longer than New York Subway under homes and schools and hospitals they booby trapped tens of thousands of buildings they started firing rockets at our homes and our towns from inside their schools and their hospitals in response Israel's actions are to Target hamas's terrorists and to take unprecedented efforts to keep their civilians safe from their own leaders sick strategy to

sacrifice them on the altar of jihad that's why it keeps repeatedly urging them to get out of hm's way from Hamas strongholds and flooding the area with over a million tons of Aid because it keeps saying this is a war against Hamas not the people of Gaza now the suffering of my neighbors in Gaza is horrific I blame their psychopath leaders for launching this war fighting it inside civilian areas and refusing to release the hostages and surrender now tonight's debate is about whether Israel's actions in the war in Gaza are justified in a context in

which I hope we can all agree none of the enemy's actions are Justified because we are fighting a jihadist army that has as much respect for Humanity and law as Medi Hassan has for the truth medy may say I condem hamas's acts on October 7th but he will not condemn its strategy because he is part of its strategy Hamas is counting on its defense attorney to Shield it from the consequences of the war that it started and deflect blame onto Israel so it can do October 7th again maybe because they share a goal that Israel

shouldn't exist Medi Hassan will say tonight that October 7th does not justify Israel's actions in this horrible War my question then is this I'm sorry your time is up does October I'm sorry your time is up thank you many Elon Elon in in already calling your opponent a liar you have already crossed one of the lines of the culture that we try to establish here I wish you hadn't you don't I don't mind it's fine it's fine it's fine you you don't you don't need to do that to make your case please Med H you

are answering uh no in answer in uh answer to the question is were Israel's actions in the gods of War Justified all right so ladies and gentlemen the question were they Justified were the actions Justified and it would be great if you didn't feel the need to respond to the personal attack waste we'll decide when we get there John the were they Justified um no obviously not of course not October the 7th I think we can all agree was a crime a war crime right we can all agree on that and taking hostages is a

war crime and those hostages should be released but to destroy an entire place an entire people in response is never Justified never Justified how are we still de I don't understand how we're debating this more than 40,000 deaths later I don't understand how we're still debating this sitting in the comfort of New York 7 ,000 miles away from a place that the UN Secretary General is called hell on Earth Justified Justified was Israel justified in carrying out one of the most intense civilian punishment campaigns in history according to Dr Robert Pape at the University of

Chicago dropping 500b bombs 1,000 PB bombs 2,000 pound bombs on schools hospitals uh universities bookstores libraries mosques churches refugee camps apartment buildings cemeteries cemeteries destroying a higher percent of buildings in Northern Gaza than the Allies destroyed in Dresden during World War II reducing Gaza to 42 million tons of rubble while they got people out of the way how is that justified dropping a bomb for example on a six-story apartment building in central Gaza last October killing more than a 100 people inside including more than 50 children with no Hamas Target in sight according to Human

Rights Watch with no explanation offered by the Israeli military even till today was that justified Alon was Israel justified in telling people to go to Safe zones and then bombing them and killing them in those safe zones according to NBC there were seven deadly air strikes between January and April in areas that the Israeli military had specifically designated as safe zones killing Palestinian civilians like sabrin sakani who was 30 weeks pregnant at the time she was killed in a safe Zone in April her little baby newborn baby died less than a week later was that

justified to Alon was Israel justified in killing a record number of kids in Gaza 16,000 children turning Gaza into what the un is called a graveyard for children according to save the children killing more kids in the first 3 weeks that were killed globally in each of the past four years killing little kids like six-year-old Hind rajab and her 15-year-old sister lean firing 335 bullets into the car they were in 335 bullets and then killing the two paramedics who went to try and rescue them was that justified too Alon was Israel justified in killing a

record number of Aid workers in Gaza right a record number targeting targeting again and again systematically car by car according to Chef Jose Andreas a specifically explicitly marked well Central Kitchen Aid Convoy killing seven Aid workers in the process was that justified was Israel justified in starving the people of Gaza using food and water as a weapon of War to quote both the EU and Oxfam was Israel justified in blocking Aid trucks from going into Gaza simply because they carry things like crutches nail clippers and even chocolate crossant according to the Washington Post was Israel

justified in raping sodomizing Palestinian detainees who are charged with no crimes whatsoever putting hot rods up their rectums putting hot rods up their rectums amputating their limbs according to CNN in the New York Times was that rape and torture Justified Alon was I mean the Israel according to the ICC Chief prosecutor who put out a statement calling for the arrest of alon's former boss Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israel may have mil military goals legitimate goals but the way they're carried out killing innocent people starving people is Criminal he said criminal think about that Alon Levy

is a former spokesperson for a man who the ICC Chief prosecutor once arrested for war crimes Aon himself has produced a number of Lies sorry John in service of those war crimes he has a bunch of tweets still up tonight which say that babies were beheaded on October 7th babies were baked in ovens uh babies were ripped from their mother's wombs October 7th was bad enough but Elon had to exaggerate it for atrocity purposes those tweets are still up why would you trust anything this man says to you tonight look he's here he's here he's

here to Gaslight you to defend the indefensible to excuse the inexcusable to justify the unjustifiable but you don't need to tonight you can choose to be on the side not of Cruelty not of criminality but on the side of the innocent people of Gaza who have being killed as we speak tonight as we speak by alon's former colleagues in the Israeli military on the orders of alon's former bosses in the Israeli government so yes I choose to oppose this horrific and homicidal motion thank you so we're we're going to dis we're going to have a

a discussion with a little that's a little bit looser in format but the first thing I want to say to each of you is you know this Mutual urination contest is not is not helping us understand the principles involved all right you you think he tells my untruths you think he tells untruths you don't need to keep hitting that point I hope to make your argument and again it doesn't it's not what we're about Elan I I I heard you in your in your opening statement say that the only moral response was for Israel to

try to take Hamas down and to get the hostages home I heard your opponent say uh that the the the manner in which it's happening is just enormous overreach with enormous consequences for enormous number of people that uh he he would certainly say and I think a number of others would agree are innocent people not all of them but some of them and that that represents an unjustifiable response what we're talking about it seems like is proportionality and I want I want you to address the issue of proportionality um this has been calculated in a

number of ways people have said that as you said it was the worst terrorist attack since 200 uh since September 11th 2001 uh but others would say that the the number of people killed on both sides is is wildly out of balance and therefore disproportionate there's there's an issue to be discussed here there a principle to be discussed here and that's proportionality and what in your view justifies the proportionality that Israel has stepped up to in its response and I again because I want things to move back and forth I'll probably jump in on you

after about 90 seconds just so you have a sense Israel's response is proportionate to the threat that we face which is the threat of annihilation after perpetrating The Savage atrocities of October 7th the first thing Hamas did was deny that it did them the second thing that it did was to threaten to do it again and again until Israel is destroyed that is what is at stake if this war ends with Hamas free emboldened and empowered to perpetrate more October 7th massacres thinking that the world will keep saving it from the wars that it started

now proportionality is a term in international law it doesn't mean that if they kill a th people you kill a th people and call it quits it means that for each strike the anticipated collateral damage the damage to civilians cannot be excessive to the anticipated military goal and your argument is that that has been the principle Israel has observed every military expert who has observed Israel's military efforts including just recently in the times the deputy supreme commander of NATO has said that Israel is fighting in the most complicated Urban Battlefield that the world has ever

seen and he's satisfied that its Rules of Engagement and standard procedures are at least as rigorous as the UK and other Western allies that's the former deputy supreme commander of NATO Mar so I actually I actually I actually want to agree I want to agree with something Alon said proportionality is a difficult subject and we shouldn't talk about this an abstract X number here y number there let's talk specifics the problem with a lot of spokesperson of Israel they want to talk in abstract I want to talk in specifics so if we talk about proportionality

we talk about discrimination we talk about war crimes uh last October shortly after October 7th Israeli forces struck a three-story Residential Building in Gaza City they killed 15 members of the Aldos family seven children according to Amnesty International the survivors say no warnings Alon told us there were warnings no warnings were given to evacuate amnesty found no evidence of any military Targets in the area and Israel to this day has offered no explanation for that strike so for the dead Aldos family members can you tell us why they were killed Mr Hassan the IDF does

not owe you immediate answers and the fact that amnesty speaks the fact thaty the local Witnesses intimidated by Hamas does not mean that there was not a military Target was there because Israel has never said Target Hamas booby trapped 40% of gaza's buildings it dug tunnels underneath homes and schools back to generalities no kill 15 members Mr H I do not know and I do not need to explain every single no Mr Hass because in this war Israel is seeking to neutralize the threat of a terrorist Army that has a deliberate strategy I'm going to

have to get the mut Swit civilians thank you sorry go ahead isra Hamas has a deliberate strategy of sacrificing its innocent civilians and this is a strategy that you are enabling by always deflecting blame onto Israel instead of considering the real question of why Hamas built its military assets into civilian areas under international law Israel is obligated to give precaution where those feasible precautions are possible and it has done that by let come to be I need to say two things to be to be clear to be clear 15 people will killed seven children you

were spokesperson for the Israeli government at that time Israel has never given explanation when you say I do not need to explain myself you literally do you were the spokesperson for the government that committed a war crime and you came to a debate tonight to defend war crimes so you literally do number two number two you'll notice John how Alon quickly went to abstract generalities let's talk specifics let's talk about tunnels I think it's abhorent to hide tunnels under civilian targets I wish they didn't do that but when Israel shoots children in the head three

American doctors went to Gaza Dr F Sid Dr Iran galaria and a Jewish American doctor called Dr Mark PM all of them came back at separate times said children were brought into hospitals we were in with gunshot to the Head sniper shots perfect exact targets there is no tunnel that justifies shooting toddlers in the head Israeli snipers or you can tell us why you can defend them Mar um Mar for forgive me for for going abstract but I I do want to go to some principles here so you are listing a number of specific yes

uh incidents that you feel cumulative add up to a very very much an overreaction war crimes John not an overreaction war crimes all right you call them war crimes in um not not so much in the abstract but what what would have been an appropriate response to what happened that would not cross the line to propor ity it's a good question it's a great question so I'm I'll answer that in two ways one is I'm not someone who has ever and you can look at my record on this whether it's the UK the us both

of my countries I'm American British I've criticized targeted assassinations even by the US and the UK I'm the loser and people in New York there going to be unpopular statement who says that people like Bin Laden should be tried not assassinated that's who I'm a stinking liberal but but given we live in a world where America Britain Israel multiple countries India is now accused of targeting its enemies k you could have tried to take out the leaders of the group without wiping out the entire place I find it interesting that Israel hold hold on I

find it interesting that Israel was able to pinpoint kill isma hania in a house in a foreign country but when it comes to Gaza when it comes to the Gaza Strip they had to wipe out the whole place they had to reduce it to 42 million tons of rubble and one final point I just got on factual points Alon they're not your neighbors they're people you occupy just to be clear so I'm I'm hoping you'll let Point number two slide and please take on point number one Med's saying that there would have been a self-defense

response that he feels might have been more appropriate that he also feels would have been within the capability of the Israeli military what's your response to that notice the general pattern of argumentation we're seeing here gosh October 7th was terrible Hamas shouldn't have done that gosh Hamas built tunnels under schools and hospitals it shouldn't have done that the question is what Israel May legitimately do once no that's not the question I asked you no but I'm but I'm explaining it's what you did and his response it's what you did and Mr Hassan's response is well

if Israel could take out a terrorist leader thousands of miles away who wasn't expecting that he could be targeted surely it can reach the terrorists who are hiding inside a bunker under a hospital probably surrounded by hostages as human Shields Hamas rigged the battlefield Hamas rigged the battlefield to Shield its military assets under civilians and it left Israel with no option of getting to those leaders okay no option no other option no option is what your opponent is saying first of all so first of all as we've discussed and I'm here all night Alon can

take his time they killed 15 members of the Dos family seven children we can continue this at the reception afterwards if you want I'm I I happily and ask you why did government that you served in Kill 15 innocent people in an apartment building on this is very important there's no evidence Hamas was there he's not tried to make that just in the interest of time you've asked it it's a it's become a rhetorical question to the argument wants to goel when he says there when he says there was no other option what is your

response to that well no one in the world agrees with that that's why Israel has become a Pari in the world because even even what the even Joe Biden the most Pro does October I already answer that question even Joe Biden the most pro- Israel president of my lifetime who has backed Israel with weapons and arms has gone on the record saying too much indiscriminate bombing you've killed too many innocent people even the people on your own side say you're killing too many people Alon but you not accept that Mr Hassan too many people have

been killed the number of people who should have been killed is zero too many people were killed when hamas's psychopath leaders when hamas's psychopath leaders who are funded by your pay masters in C maybe you share a SL all right all right let's let's respond to that I'm going to respond to that no no no no no it's it's another it's another cheap shot and I don't want to entertain cheap shots I want to go to you Elon with this question when you say that the war is Justified killing in war can only be justified

if it serves a greater good what's the greater good that's being served at this moment Mr Donan this war is not justified because Hamas should not have started this war in the first place well the question is whe the question you are you are arguing you are answering the question yes Israel's actions are Justified the response is an attempt to prevent the next October 7th Massacre well on October 7th Hamas showed us what it was capable of doing and they immediately went on TV and said October 7th October 10th October 1 millionth everything we do

is Justified We're a nation of Martyrs they said we're proud to sacrifice millions of Martyrs if that's what it takes and we are trying to stop October 7th and to do so in a way that minimizes the cost of their civilians let me just deal with the last point and the previous point which is the idea let's just let's just be real here and a lot of military experts say this but you don't even need military experts you just need Comm sense the idea that you prevent another October the 7th or that you destroy Hamas

by making tens of thousands of Palestinian children orphans is insane it doesn't protect Israel forget Gaza it doesn't protect Israel and let me just deal with this classic my pay masters in Qatar yes I host a show for Al jazer English let's just be very clear in December the New York Times published a very very long piece very important very important here relevant to the debate the New York Times please make it relevant New York Times published a very long piece which say said a month before October the 7th the head of the mosad David

barer went to dohaqatar and the Qatari said do you want us to keep sending money to Gaza and he went back to Neto he said what should I say said yes please and he went back he said yes please send the money to Gaza Alon went to work for the government of Benjamin Neto a month after that wordss he's never apologized for that to the Israeli people Benjamin Nano has never apologized for that to the Israeli people so if anyone should answer questions about Qatari funding of Hamas allegedly reportedly whatever you want to call it

it's the Israeli government that facilitated it for many many years Al was in that government he's the spokesperson for thatment it was a terrible mistake to allow cartering money into Gaza on the mistaken belief that if we improve civilian life in Gaza create jobs create opportunity hamas's psychopath leaders won't launch this war they went straight on TV and said we tricked the Israelis we made them think that we were concerned about the civilians in Gaza all the while we were taking that money to build the tunnels and the weapons and the rockets we are firing

at Israel if we had known Mr Hassan what Hamas was going to do on October 7th perhaps we should have started a preemptive War to eliminate that threat before they could have burn the cement of children alive on October 7th but we didn't Hamas tricked us and we won't repeat the same mistake again timeout going to take a little bit of a 10-second breath and slightly lower the temperature but only slightly Alon you were making the argument that Israel's actions are justified in the pursuit of the destruction of Hamas we've come to the point though

where even Israeli military officials are saying it can't be destroyed therefore what what if what happens to that argument that the justification is the destruction of Hamas if it's an organization a movement that can't be destroyed of course Hamas can be removed from Power just like Isis was removed from Power Isis is now a terrorist organization that is trying to blow up concerts in Austria it no longer controls territory the size of Austria following this war we cannot allow the Hamas terrorist regime it's not an organization is a terror regime and a terror Army to

regroup restock rearm and keep shooting rockets at our towns while it is still holding civilians it is a regime that must be removed from Power because we know exactly what it wants to do if given half a chance and that is to do October 7th again and again and Israel's war Mr Hassan I'll yield the stage to you and ask you eliminating the Hamas Terror regime removing it from Power a legitimate military objective yes or no of course there's a legitimate military objective for Israel and that's what I quoted the ICC Chief prosecutor saying but

you're doing a very bad job of it what's interesting I understand that after October 7 do I understand no because I want to clarify and understand we're on the same want to clar the guy who can't answer why you kill that we are on the same page do you agree I'll answer your question when you answer mine it was legitimate for Israel to remove the Hamas Terror regime in order to prevent another October 7th it's a yes or no question Mr Hassan no it's not it's a loaded question I'm going to say it was legitimate

for Israel to defend its citizens inside of Israel it's not legitimate to occupy Palestinian territ for decades decades on end and let me answer can I actually answer what you came to let me let me answer John's question let me you've had two or three minutes in a r you asked a very interesting question of Aon you pointed out that he keeps saying no just a slide of hand you said that he said and he said it many times not just here hamash should be destroyed when you asked him Israeli military experts in general say

it can't be destroyed notice what Alon said he said remove from Power quickly move the goalpost there because he knows that Hamas can't be destroyed by these means in fact the former head of Israel let me finish my point the former head of Israel's military who was a member of netanyahu's War cabinet he said earlier this year quote anyone who says you can destroy Hamas is telling Tall Tales so it's not me calling Alon Levy a liar it's the former head of the Israeli military Mr Hassan from the beginning from the beginning Israel has said

that its goals are to remove Hamas from power and dismantle its ability to wage war again and to live up its threat of repeat October 7th and that is why I ask you after October 7th was it legitimate for Israel to remove Hamas from power in order to to eliminate the threat of repeat October 7th yes or no very simple answer Israel has the right to defend its citizens in its territory it doesn't have a right to be an occupier doesn't have a right to Shish the point because you think they're your neighbors the international

court of justice says Gaza and the West Bank are occupied they've been occupied every day since 1967 you did not withdraw in 2005 you blockaded to explain I'd like to explain what the purpose here is and and I've already answered the question Alon I've made the point that even if I was an Israeli General trying to destroy Hamas killing thousands of innocent people only helps Hamas every terrorism expert in the world says you're are a recruiting Sergeant for extremist groups when you go and kill innocent civilians Mr Hassan whether understand that whether this out time

out time out out the L time outon time out I have a question for whoever wants to jump on it is Israel's war in Gaza making Israel more secure when this War began Hamas had a fearsome missile Arsenal that reigned thousands of missiles on our cities I had to keep running into a rocket shelter Israel has now eliminated Israel has now eliminated the threat of Rocket fire from Gaza it has cut off its smuggling routs it has destroyed its missile silos and it has destroyed hamas's weapons capabilities that alone has made us safer and makes

it easier to sleep in our beds at night a couple of so three quick things number one the Israelis went to Supreme Court recently and they having an argument in Israel Supreme Court and they put in the official filing that we do not control Gaza even after all this time Hamas is still in control of lots of parts of Gaza so they say the honest stuff when when you're not looking number two number two I interviewed Amy Ison recently former head of shinb former Israeli Admiral he said very explicitly Israel will not be safe until

we give Palestinians Freedom this is his words not my words and number three and number three number three I'm glad you had a bomb shelter to protect you because the Aldos family in Gaza did not have a bomb shelter to protect okay another question we have not we have not yet talked about the hostages and we should is Israel's action in Gaza going to to is it for the benefit of the hostages absolutely Israel is fighting to bring the hostages home while Hamas is starving and torturing and raping them we managed in November because Hamas

was being clobbered and it wanted a breather they released nearly half of the hostages we've sent in Special Forces to rescue hostages in raids my opponent has condemned Israel is fighting to put the military pressure on Hamas to release the hostages but Hamas doesn't want to release the hostages and the reason it doesn't want to release the hostages is that it knows that the longer this war goes on and the more suffering it generates among its own people in Gaza the more it advances its own goal of isolating Israel and Mr Hassan it it it

it it pains me that you do not seem to realize the role that you play Within hamas's strategy when you deflect blame onto Israel never demand any accountability never demand any accountability from the Hamas regime when you know that hamas's goal is to maximize suffering you give it a reason to drag on this War if you wanted to let the hostages go lo you should tell of all the non Hamas to free the hostage of all the demonstrably untrue things you've said tonight this is the big one so so apparently if you want a deal

to end the war you're enabling hamas's strategy no that's what you just said I'm enabling hamas's strategy so but you have systematically undermind every Leverage is has to fre hostages know who stop pretending the hostages of the two of us hold on of the two of us of the two of us whose strategy has released more hostages mine or yours cuz I IED a ceasefire and we got we got hold on our got can I straty is to give Hamas War I let him finish please over a 100 hostages were released last November in the

paws in the ceasefire deal a lot of Israelis wanted that to continue hostages families wanted that to continue Netanyahu can I finish my answer Netanyahu said No in fact I interviewed zahiro Mo whose Uncle Abraham Munda was horribly killed in Gaza zahiro Mo by the way was arrested today he's been arrested and attacked by the Israeli government that Alon served in multiple times he said to me Netanyahu and the government the government that Alon was part of always choose the wrong way ever since October the 8th everything they do is directed at not getting the

hostages back that is the plain truth that is the nephew of a hostage they don't want you to hear about the hostages Alon and people like Alon use the hostages as political porns the hostages families are standing on the streets of Tel Aviv opposing the Netanyahu government calling for a ceasefire calling for a deal they don't like Alon leing they don't support Mr Hass how many hostage rallies have you spoken out how many hostages mothers have you embrac them hug them told them I went here for you whatever you need I was at Central Park

I was at Central Park last Sunday have the rally for the hostages you are not Mr you really care about the host hostage if you want to show them UK you're welcome to all right let's this is fantastic let's go so put it on show them you care show them you care I am in daily contact with the family I tell them I will do whatever it takes to help you get your kids home show them you care and stop trying to exploit the suff allow him to respond you've got your bit of stage so

let's it let's be clear let's be clear let's be clear you saw the very very performative outrage there from Alon there to be clear don't you lecture me about hostages when your government has killed more hostages then it is rescue that's on you that's on you is on that is on this all right all right all right I no I need to finish this point I'm going to let you finish this point and then we're moving on I will I will happily support this pin because I support the release of all the hostages and and

no no no let me finish let me finish and I support I support the release of thousands of Palestinian detainees being raped and tortured and children do you support that let's wear it together do you support the do you support the release of Palestinians I do not support release of Palestinian children do you support the release of Palestinian children anyone get some space here he can't answer the question he won't I support the release of allent people doesn't that's all you've got gimmick once again all you've got all right all right all right I have

one more question before we pivot to some questions from some journalists who are joining us and I want to talk about America's involvement in the situation the US has been largely supporting Israel if the war in Israel is unjustified that implicates the US in an unjust War if the war is Justified then we have an ally that requires our help which is it I'm sorry I didn't hear the question we have uh uh it's about us involvement in the war if the war is unjustified that implicates the US in an unjust War if it's Justified

we have an ally that requires our help when this War Began President Biden said that Israel is facing sheer pure unadulterated evil it was so obvious in the moment of shock after October 7th that for Israel to defend itself it has to dismantle the Hamas Terror regime that President Barack Obama said we must stand by our Ally Israel as it dismantles Hamas the United States has made valuable support to Israel in its goal of Bringing Down the Hamas regime what we need is pressure on Hamas and its patrons Q turkey and Iran to let the

hostages go that pressure has not been forthcoming I mean before I came on stage gersan Basin who is Israel's most famous hostage negotiator he whatsapped me and said he's got a deal three-week deal on the table with Hamas that Hamas has agreed to to release all the hostages and end the war he says it's with Netanyahu the Bulls in netanyahu's court so when he keeps going about hostages tell him to speak to his former boss to agreed or hostage G Bas is The Negotiator as for the United deal to freeas performance the As for the

United States it is tragic to me as a citizen of the United Kingdom and the United States that my two countries have armed Israel as it carries out what the icj has called a plausible genocide as it arms the Prime Minister who wanted for war Crim H the ICC Chief prosecutor has called for the arrest of yo gallant and Benjamin Netanyahu the American government should not be arming a man wanted for war crimes an Al Levy should have began his speech tonight apologizing for working for a man who is wanted for war crimes by the

ICC Chief prosecutor Mr Doo you called me to account at the beginning of the debate and said I should not have called my opponent a liar the former president of the icj Joan Donahue had to go on many other judges disagreed with had to go on TV judge ruling did not Define there was a plausible genocide she had to go on TV to refute the LIE the only reason for you to make that the chief prosecu call arrest warrant whose arrest warrant claims were based on all right this is not helping we are we are

not able to hear what anybody is saying we're not able to hear what anybody's saying you both talking at the same time and I'm talking at the third time so let's stop this convenient I I have a question for each of you before we pivot which I would I would I want to ask you if you can answer without without attacking one another and I'm also curious to see if you can do it in under 20 seconds because we're just curious each of you came to this debate and by your decision to participate we know

we saw on social media that both of you were attacked by members of your own camp for being even on the stage with somebody who's holding the opposing view but you showed up anyway Elon why did you show up 15 seconds because Iran the Palestinian nationalists and their allies are waging a war of misinformation that has one purpose they want to destroy Israel and they think it will be much easier to destroy Israel if they convince the world that Israel deserves to be destroyed a full campaign of the most ridiculous lies to try to convince

good ordinary Americans that when they're ready to pull the trigger and Massacre us once more they should stand to one side and say well the Jews had it coming and I'm not willing to allow that to happen youall the question statement sorry okay just a 20 second answer yeah I mean look I believe that what is happening in Gaza the killing of 16,000 children the genocide in Gaza is the great moral tragedy of our time the great crime of our time and I will go almost anywhere and take a stage with almost anyone to try

and bring that war to an end and convince people that the war needs to end now may I add something no no we have to move forward all right we're going to bring in some other voices now we have uh some journalists we have four journalists who are each going to ask one I hope very short question um to uh there are people who uh have been written writing about the the the area for a long time particularly about the situation now uh and they are certainly not monolithic in their own views I first want

to go to Peter binart he's a journalist who's written for time the New York Times the Atlantic he's former editor of the new Republic and editor at large of Jewish currents Peter if you can stand up there's a microphone I believe in the aisle for you and uh ask your incredibly short question thank you um Alon you suggested that the goal of the war was to depose Hamas from power but on October 11th Benjamin Netanyahu said the goal of the war was to destroy Hamas on October 12th yov Galant said the defense Min said the

goal was to wipe it from the earth because I think they understood that even deposing Hamas would not necessarily make Hamas less of a fearsome threat the Taliban didn't become less of a fearsome threat to the United States once they stopped holding power Saddam and his forces didn't become less of a fearsome threat once they no longer held power they recognized that winning this war meant destroying Hamas and yet your own former colleague daniari the ID said it's not possible to be clear I'd like you to be on the record do you think it's possible

to destroy Hamas or were Netanyahu and Galant wrong I believe it is possible to remove the Hamas Terror RAC power whether leaders whether leaders used belligerent rhetoric that exaggerated the goals of the war no look Hamas needs to be destroyed it's an idea some ideas deserve to be destroyed and whether that idea is destroyed or not depends on the lessons that the people of Gaza take from this war will they conclude that terrorism is a dead end that their leaders have repeatedly LED them into disaster after disaster as part of their forever war against a

Jewish state in any borders whatsoever or will they take the less that in fact they were rewarded for the October 7th Massacre that is what is at stake here and we are trying to convince the people of Gaza terrorism is a dead end there is no light at the end of that tunnel may you also get to respond you can respond answer you you you I mean I think Peter made the point very eloquently it's a nonsensical War aims the real war aims of course are what the Israeli ministers say when smotr says the aim

of the war is to annihilate Gaza that is the aim I take him face value he literally said that and when they see this stuff when they talk about resettling Gaza when they talk about staying in Gaza that is what they mean not government policy and goes against government I would just I would just say this say this you want to convince the people of Gaza that terrorism is a dead end then stop inflicting terrorism on them every accusation is a confession H many our next question comes from Jillian Letterman uh jilan Jan is an

editorial fellow at the Wall Street Journal former Chief Executive chair of the Israel leadership Network Jillian thanks for joining us and what's your question thank you um my question is given the current circumstances do you believe that Israel pulling out of Gaza in 2005 was the right decision who that a question to it's a difficult question let me just ask you J do are you pointing that to anybody in particular both can answer it but okay Israel with Drew from the Gaza Strip in 2005 and never wanted to go back it gave them Gaza they

had the option to turn it into Singapore they chose to turn it into mosul they could have had a thriving state in Gaza after Israel pulled out and Jewish organizations paid to donate the green houses instead they chose to rig Gaza for war the tunnel Network under Gaza is the largest Public Works project the Palestinians have ever undertaken they did it for the sake of the October 7th was it a mistake to pull out that was the question I don't know okay no fair enough fair enough um symbol simple answer is of course Israel did

not pull out of Gaza as the icj has pointed out just recently Gaza is occupied territory let me put it very simply to you what what Alon doesn't tell you is when when they pulled out they kept control of gaza's land borders not with egpt contr on the other side the land borders kept have you no without interruption the land borders the sea Waters the air and wait wait for it wait for it and the population registry if you're born in gazi have to be registered with the Israelis if you were born in New York

and your birth had to be registered with a foreign country would you say you occupied or not occupied would you say you're a free people or an unfree people it's an absolute lie the occupation never ended Israel ended the occupation of Gaza in 2005 the no let me interrupt you hold it hold it hold it hold it hold it we are done with the interruptions it's just destructive so you go regist isn't an interesting question because Israel runs it in cooperation with the PA as part of the Oslo Accords Hamas is free to run its

own population registry because it has effective control inside Gaza under international law occupation requires the effective control of territory everywhere in the world it is understood to mean boots on the ground and the only reason to fabricate a new standard to say that just because Israel doesn't allow Hamas to build an ishia International Airport means that it is occupied is as part of a campaign to try to make Israel responsible for civilians in Gaza so Hamas can take the resources and run all them into the we're losing resp to this briefly very briefly Alon a

moment a moment ago a moment ago you all heard him proudly quoting the former president of the icj the icj literally the other day said Gaza is occupied but Alon and I went to the same University we did the same degree he didn't do law he's not a lawyer the icj says Gaza is occupied it's over the debate's over You've Lost That one you're going to lose not the end that is not the end because a basic principle ofj disagrees you're done Bas jilan Jillian do you feel that your question was answered was it a

mistake to pull out of Gaza because I don't but we're going to move on thank you for the question it would be helpful and I I realize you're both very passionate and have a lot to say about this but it would be helpful at least at the beginning of your answers to stick to the questions I did I said they they didn't pull out because they never pulled out I mean don't accept the premise of the all right fair enough you question next up next up next up it ripped people out of their I know

I know I know I know I was there I was there I witnessed it he witnessed it medy it happened with the part you're talking about next up we have have Dean obidala a lawyer a comedian and a journalist who has hosted the dean obidala show and a frequent commentator on CNN MSNBC and the Delhi Beast Dean thanks for joining us thank you I have a question foran you've defended everything the Israeli military has done everything and Med's gone through it my family lives in the West Bank I my question is is there anything that

you would condemn Israel for in terms of killing Palestinian Christians and Muslims or are they all inhuman in your view and not worthy of any sympathy dignity or self-determination as a people all right all right hang on a second hang on I I I have an issue with the question the first part of the question is there anything you would condemn from Israel legitimate question but the assumption that if he feels differently that he has no sense of the human of Palestinians is a bit of some baggage loaded into the question so why don't you

take the question is there is there anything that Israel is doing that you would condemn I have gone on TV as a government spokesman when the Army said that there was a particular mistake and a certain Target should not have been hit we fess up and admit our mistakes because that is what a responsible military should do you can answer okay but Israel is fighting an enemy whose use of war crimes is strategic and systematic they're not investigated on hamas's end no one is ever never called to account its use of war crimes against its

own civilians while they hide behind them in their schools and hospitals to fire at us is strategic and systematic and so I stand by my country as it fights to use proportionate Force to dismantle the Hamas Army of Terror because yes my neighbors are human because because I take better future I have an important I have a very important technical program note I've received a message that the audience clapping volume is so loud that in the recording very frequently it's been impossible to hear what our Debaters are saying and Don't Clap and so what I

would like you to do is to clap in between their points let them finish and then go for it please the gentleman challenged my humanity and I would like to defend it h I tried to let this go I want a future of peace between us and our neighbors that cannot happen as long as the Hamas teror regime is power on the subject of um I'll wait for the Applause on the subject of elon's humanity I asked him earlier if he supported the release of Palestinian children he refused to say so he can tonight we'll

all wear this pin uh let me let me say on the West Bank he cannot help but cherry pick the evidence he cannot pick help but cherry pick the evidence he just said a moment ago he tried to Gaslight you he said Hamas is never held to account actually the chief prosecutor international criminal court gave out five arrest warrant requests three for Hamas two for Israel I support all of those arrest warrant request do you do you Mr H do you it's a yes or no question every single line it's a yes or no question

every single you support accountability for all of them absolutely but you and what you support arrest for wait wait wait now we can't hear what you're both saying you support arrest warrant for net no Mr Hassan because every single line every single line in the request by the pr is based on lies like the allegation of starvation impossible to reconcile with over 1 million tons of Aid that have entered Gaza the start of this war going now more than 52,000 trucks 52,000 69 trucks right now did you know that Mr 69 trucks according to 15

according to 15 Aid agencies who are they who should we believe 15 Aid agencies or you and Mr Hass who are they believe Mr Hass a Mr Hass or you these Aid agencies are quoting H do you believe that H's statistics are accurate yes or no actually no excuse me wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute a lie is this helpful yes for some okay well lies need to be stopped I just I

would just like to ask you to take turns okay and not talk at the same time you're doing worse at waiting get better over 1 million tons of Aid now according to Mr Hassan I don't know what double digit number he quoted comes from onra Ona's own dashboard on its website says that this is an incomplete register of data that it cannot monitor all the cargo going in Israel is monitoring it onra is under counting it by a factor of 10 that's how you get to the bizarre statements like imminent famine in Gaza because the

IPC Review Committee said that that assessment was based on not counting all of the trucks that have gone in they literally undercounted trucks in order to make this horrific allegation of starvation so the entire your to the spee respond so you just began the whole answer premised on a line it's not based on un statistics it's based on their own experiences at Israeli Crossings David millerand David millerman man you know we're both British in front of this audience David millerman was the former foreign minister of the UK very pro-israeli politician served under Blair and brown

not some Palestinian lover David Milan said on CNN our trucks are being stopped because they're finding a tiny little surgical scissor or a nail clipper and they're sending the trucks back David Milan is not some hater of Israel Cindy McCain is the head of the world food program she is the Widow of the most pro-israeli senator of my lifetime John McCain she has accused Israel of blocking Aid trucks killing Aid workers Starving Children Cindy mcain is not unua or habas Dean Dean we are a long long way from the question you asked I don't know

that's that's bad moderating I'm sorry that I we have another question from John LaVine uh John is a political reporter for the Sunday New York Post he has credits on CNN.com the Atlantic The Chronicle of Higher Education uh John thank you for joining us and uh come on in with your question if you could stand up okay thank you both for thank you both for being here um my question is for medy um I actually I think it's an easy question so I hope we can get a direct answer I'd like to ask you about

your new media startup a Teo um in May Rolling Stone reported that John this has got to be on the point where just debting it relates to Qatar which I believe was brought up in the debate we're we're debating whether Israel's actions were Justified that's not on point I'm sorry I got to pass on it I'm happy to I'm happy to take the question John I'm John I'm happy to take the question I I'm happy we're not we're not here to we're not here to talk about your career I know you are and I'm not

so I'm sorry John if you want to come up with a question that's on point about Israel's actions and gossip go for it please yeah I can because this is a debate where you ask questions I mean I now I really want to ask the question I'm just curious I just want to answer the question you can talk you can talk afterwards all right I mean the dude works for the New York Post I prefer not to talk to him but it's not my debate thank you thank you all right we are coming down to

the end for our closing statements and that's where each debater has the floor again exclusively to make their case one more time for you um Alon you're up first in this one more time to remind people I think they know that you're arguing that Israel's war in Gaza I'm sorry Israel's actions in Gaza are Justified uh you can take the floor and you have uh two minutes to tell us why two and a half minutes to tell us why after the sadistic Massacre of October 7th Hamas immediately told us if you leave us on our

feet we will do this again and again it wasn't enough to cremate little children it wasn't enough to commit acts of gang gang rape rape pedophilia necrophilia it wasn't enough to gag people bind them tie them to trees and strip them they told us we're coming for you if you leave us on our feet we will do this again and again this war has been horrible we have paid a horrific price for it we are trying to prevent the threat of a repeat October 7th Massacre and we are fighting a sadistic enemy that red the

battlefield in a way that said we've hidden our military assets under civilians the only way that you can get to us is by going through civilians and that's why Israel has taken more actions than any military in the history of the world and so every Commander from Afghanistan and Iraq will agree in order to keep the civilians safe from their own leaders sick strategy of trying to sacrifice them that is why it keeps telling them to evacuate it never designated a safe Zone where Hamas terrorist could abuse hostages with impunity it told them to go

where it is safer where it is safer and where Hamas is not and on every occasion on every occasion it has been styed by un agencies saying no keep them in Hamas strongholds by Hamas trying to fight to keep them in the strongholds while we try to keep them safe from their own psychopath leaders I asked Mr Hassan removing Hamas from Power legitimate yes or no and he wriggled out it he said well defending Israel is legitimate but not the point you go into Gaza okay his response end the occupation let Hamas have an ishia

international airport let it have a Muhammad Dev Naval Base there is nothing you can do with a terror regime that is sworn to your destruction whose goals are legitimately genocidal we need this war to end but we need this war to end in a way that ensures that Hamas cannot restart it at a time of its choosing feeling emboldened and empowered because of international pressure generated by people like Medi Hassan to keep saving it from the wars that it starts and I just need to say it and Mary Hassan you have the final word and

this debate one more time your argument for why Israel's actions in the Gaza War were not justified ladies and gentlemen were the actions of Israel in Gaza Justified look the argument is pretty simple tonight and pretty hypocritical from Alon what we've heard tonight is that October nothing justifies October the 7th but October the 7th justifies everything well I'm here tonight to tell you no October the 7th does not justify everything it does not justify the suffering in Gaza it does not justify the killing of kids in Gaza it does not justify the starvation in Gaza

it does not justify the rape and torture of Palestinian detainees which Alon refused to condemn tonight it does not justify any of that it doesn't justify the tearing up of the Geneva conventions the Defiance of international law and the ICC and our own Ley law yes October the 7th was a war crime but the response to a war crime is not to commit your own series of war crimes on an epic scale 33 times as many people killed since October the 7th as were killed on October the 7th and I'll say this to you look

very very clearly if you support this motion tonight you are opening the gates of hell not just in Gaza but globally because every dictator and Tyrant around the world will say Israel's actions were Justified then so are mine Putin Assad Kim they all say Israel killed kids Israel killed Aid workers Israel killed journalists so can we and I will be I will be very clear I will be very clear with you tonight if you are here tonight ladies and gents if you're here tonight to defend what Israel's done knowing full well what Israel has done

if you're defending the human suffering in Gaza the amputation of little kids if you're doing that in full knowledge then you're not just here to defend the indefensible or Justify the unjustifiable I'm sorry you're a sociopath and I will say to you don't please please please don't be a sociopath tonight don't support war crimes don't defend the genocide join me and every human rights organization in the world every humanitarian a agcy on the planet every American doctor and nurse who's been out to volunteer in Gaza join us in opposing this ridiculous and offensive and horren

this motion and on behalf of the Aldos family who Alon clearly doesn't give a damn about I beg to oppose this motion um I am uh I I am I am curious did anybody have their minds did anybody have did anybody have their minds change tonight by anything they heard wow all right thanks thanks John LaVine yeah yeah so so here's the thing the reason I turned down John's question we really tried to preserve the Integrity of what a debate is supposed to be and it's supposed to be about the question and it's supposed to

stay on the question it's supposed to avoid personal attacks um and but but you came all this way and medy would actually it seems like to answer the question so go for it this is an extra you were accused being in the pay of yeah Alon accused you of being in the pay of Qatar earlier you took objection to that I'd like you to be able to dispel that you're taking any money from Qatar by confirming that you're not taking money for Zeto for for Qatar is guitar fundings AO or no it's a great question

John because you work as a media correspondent for the New York Post no I'm not I'm answering your question patience we waited for you you're a media columnist for the New York Post were you not I a political reporter for the New York you were at one time a media columnist you should read The Washington Post interview that I did literally WIS was founded in Jeremy bar an excellent report slightly better one than you he asked me he asked me that question and I said no we haven't taken any money from foreign governments or foreign

citizens every investor in Z is an American citizen has nothing to do with Qatar so nice better luck next time by the way by the way by the way since we're all in the spirit of asking questions how do you feel about taking money from the racist rert Murdoch every day all right all right all right all right all right I I I regret taking that question um I regret the times this debate failed to be high-m minded by two people whom I otherwise respect and I want to say that concludes our debate I want

to I want to thank our Debaters Elon Levy and medy Hassen we appreciate that you did show up and that you at least talked maybe not to one another but at one another vigorously and vociferously and in fact you were listening to One Another if only to counter but you were listening to one another and I think that's progress and I want to thank all of you in the audience for being here and being open to debate um and I I want to thank all of the journalists who joined us as well for for moving

the conversation in a more interesting Direction so that is a wrap on this debate we're open to debate I'm John Don vanan we'll see you next time [Music]