How to Get Rich With Crypto AI Agents (without getting lucky) - Virtuals Co-founder | E101

how to get rich with crypto AI agents without getting lucky as human we don't need to do anything anymore this is where human needs to come in because there are two assumptions you need to accept if you believe these two assumptions are true AI would take over the world first do you think we key the co-founder of virtual. a leading AI agents protocol enabling anyone to create and own AI agents and that is valued at nearly $2.5 billion how did you get so fascinated by AI we started as a gaming D in 202 one we

also had a venture Studio we had a dating app we lend money we sell shirt with like the NFD chips but you will realize everything you do in 2023 you need AI because everything you do as a Founder if you don't use AI you will be behind why does the crypto and AI intersection matter I think crypto again has two key product Market fit one is on investing SL speculation the other one is just borderless payment agent is becoming much easier you know you can just taex the AI rather than like visiting a clinic right

if AI agent knows everything about your daily life they could predict historically if you don't sleep 3 days in a row you're going to have mental health I told you AI is no joke it has eyes and it has hands hands means that they can do actions the hands need to be able to pick up the apple and eat they need to have the eyes as well which is if I pick up the Apple I need to observe that I have picked up the apple and then I know what to do next what is Luna

she is the first AI agent that employ human she use a coinbase wallet and because of the money in her wallet she can employ people her objective today is getting 100,000 followers on Twitter has she been scammed or not so she send someone $1,000 before but when we look at it turns out 75% of you that watch this channel frequently do not subscribe if you like this show and think it provides value to you in your Krypton investing Journey can you please please please do me a favor and subscribe to this channel hit the like

button and leave a comment below it helps this channel more than you can imagine the bigger channel the bigger the guests and the better the conversation thank you this conversation is supported by Jupiter the most used decentralized trading platform on Solana and the largest Dao in the world three a scalable layer one blockchain that's fast secure and affordable built by previous Facebook developers and that delivers the benefits of web 3 with the ease of web to and Mentor an etherum layer to that build two products I particularly like fbtc which enables you to borrow and

lend Bitcoin in Defi and me eth or meth one of the largest eth liquid staking protocols that by the way just launch its token called cook I think about the same like I think maybe 2026 you know you try to time the the B market right you say ah uh I'm going to go crazy 2025 I was telling you before like I'll travel everywhere but then I'll be [ __ ] dead and then you have these mental health issues that come because you're like I'm so dead I have so much stress I'm so jetlagged whatever

and then you're like oh I'll take three months or six months start to dream about that right and you're like yeah but if I do it wait after one month I'm going to become dumb and I'm I'm and bored right yeah I think it will be bored you will be bored what do you do if you want to chill when you build a a mega protocol I I I think because just as context I mean we we started this podcast uh we were supposed to start like like an hour ago we had some issues so

we had a lot of time to talk about many things right and one of them is uh like mental health uh that I we speak a lot in kind of like U outside of this podcast with the the big Founders like that we all kind of I mean I'm not a big founder obviously but we all kind of struggle with um mental health here and there and uh so what your question again I mean you want to open up about that no so you're talking about mental health or like what I'm gonna do I mean

there's two things there's like you said like sometimes I want to chill I just want to chill and then the other is like you're telling me I'm having so much stress these days yeah you know the funny thing that I realize is that it's it's never about the absolute state that impact your mental health it's like the change do you know what I mean like if if if today is worse than yesterday you will be so sad although today is like 100x better than like two months ago do you know what I mean and and

that that that is the tough It's like a portfolio you have an anchor yeah right and you're always looking at the anchor yeah and you're like oh I'm down from I don't know 10 million like now I'm like at eight I lost two so now I need to go back there otherwise I'm not happy right yeah yeah yeah yeah I think that's the tough part I mean for for for us doing project is like a you know you have a lot of people that put their life savings into your token and every time the price

move they will text you on like hey man you know what's going on you know why are you not doing this not doing that and uh that impacts your your mental health because those things are Beyond control um how do you deal with that it's hard it's hard I think the the way I think about it is then to focus on what I can control you know like how can I get more deaths to be on virtuals you know how can I get the team to work harder rather than the prize and and things that

we can't control but it's almost impossible to remove yeah yeah one of my guests maybe a year ago it's called Chris he built this he was in y combinator and he built this protocol called request n work and um he talked about this he had three Mega burnouts in his life like where you cannot work anymore for like a year or something like that right and he was talking about uh I think Wiest Network in 2017 icos went to like 1.5 bill or right which is pretty much where you are now now right um and

then when it crashed 99% like everything did like he was saying I was telling people all the time hey don't put all your money there hey this is like probably overvalued but we're working on fundamentals but like they're not that high and so on and so forth but then you got massively destroyed during the bare Market because everybody was saying like there's scammers and all that stuff and you have this massive responsibility that I think most people don't realize like or people would say yeah but you made so much money anyway so don't complain right

but I talk down 99% I mean we we raised in 2021 yeah at 600 million by December 2023 we were at 6 million so that was literally 99% uh yeah but but we keep building so we how do you deal with that you know after a while you get numb uh you get numb but uh but we never give up man you know I on this point I want to talk about co-founder because I think I have a fantastic co-founders uh we are retards we are ret CIO I I think we we we are just

born to be optimistic when the price down 99% we are just optimistic and uh every time I feel like uh you know this is impossible and we talk to each other and we realize actually yeah we're going a 1,000 x again you know what I mean like so I think co-founder is very very important um at least for me yeah so you raised at a $600 million valuation in 2021 yeah so pretty much like big hype of the bull market right that was literally because I think the day we raised a Bitcoin Dum 25% I

think it was like the beginning of December ah um we raised 16 million from the from theu yeah that was the top signal man yeah interesting actually I talked to uh Joe from Co Hall yeah yeah yeah and um he was saying yeah they started a couple of years ago and I was he was an investor and like but they're still there right they're still and they're not I think I mean I think like one of the very important things that people need to understand is um there's there's even in crypto where you see like

these massive valuations and I mean you guys blow up like in the I would say in the last few weeks last few month right but like like real blow up that everybody's talking about you guys but even these kind of big blow up are not overnight successes yeah even if that's what people like to buy the story right yeah and dream about that so you were basically saying like it's the opposite we raise that 600 M valuation I mean you rais a decent amount of money so you could probably like have a if if you

manage the cash well right you you you can build but like it's [ __ ] hard right it's hard man so 99% yeah and now up higher than you raised the last time yeah yeah yeah I I think it helps a lot because we experienced the 99% draw down before so I'm mentally prepared that yes our token can do the same again obviously I do not hope it happens again because of that there is the constant insecurity that we need to keep working harder because I cannot let it happen again because I know there is

a possibility that it would right um so yeah I mean you know beginning of the year I mean for the past few years we Cod DM everyone you know like talk to me talk to me talk to me and so even these days my my inbox is pretty much a a total mess I Tred to reply everyone I try to talk to them because I know like three months ago they wouldn't want to talk to me you know what I mean and now they want to talk to me so it's my it's my it's my

pleasure so I want to talk to them yeah parano I talk about that with mer actually fromus parano yeah how it's super important like there's this also this concept called sense of urgency right it's so when you build a company yeah yes one of the key characteristic that Founders should have yeah who are you I I re ever since I found the word retardo I I I like to call myself that it's it's it's very hard to stay optimistic in the industry like crypto as a Founder because of the you have to manage your product

your employee and the token prize in the community and I think you just have to be a [ __ ] basically uh like to be extremely optimistic um to keep building so yeah I think that's a good that's a good way to say who I am we talked about uh hyper liquid before for like half an hour Jeff my bro my my hero yeah I had Jeff a couple of weeks ago on the podcast and um we talked about like the cult that he built right and I mean you part of this cult also I

am yeah and uh how the way they're doing their thing is actually an inspiration for every crypto founder you includeed yes yes so we uh we were planning to raise um money by selling the treasury tokens OTC to some of the VCS we spoke to all the biggest names that you can think of um and it was a very positive conversations uh but in the last month we had the we were very lucky basically the protocol start making money um and so we are in such a lucky position that maybe we don't need external money

and that is in part in fact mainly inspired by hyper liquid I would say um no VCS you Tred because the reason why you have no VCS means that you you have more percentage of the ownership to the users right it's it's kind of like okay it's either the VCS the team or the users right in in in one p so yeah if if you can make sure that your users own as much as possible of the protocol I think that would be very sexy I think I think that's the EOS of crypto yeah we

try to do that it's hard but yeah we try do you think that if you didn't kind of beneficiate from hper liquid airdrop that much you would understand that much the concept that you have to replicate for your own protocol or you're like oh man this is such an no-brainer because like I participated one way or another but like then I feel like [ __ ] this guy is like giving me a life present right I can only be yeah I can only be first mega bullish but become an evangelist and as you said before

like you a lot of people in this community like received a lot of money and what they end up doing is buying more before we were talking both about like [ __ ] I need to buy more [ __ ] I need to buy more right for everything like what do I swap into hype yeah token because it's it's just an no-brainer right I think it's beyond the money right I it's it's yes obviously the air drop amount is good but the product has to be good too and I think the product is good H

you have to trust the founder that founder will do stuff for the long term uh keeping community at heart um yeah once you check the boxes of like the product is good the founder is is long-term oriented always thinking about the community you you'll be able to sleep at night you know for a fact that you put the money there yes there'll be volatility but yeah and as we discussed before right there's not that many because at we're kind of leing and briefing this industry and we're also like both investors since a long time yeah

um and so we're thinking like where do I put my money in size right yeah and there's not that many I would say yeah as you said before like if I sell my hype for example like what do I sell in right yeah and there's not that many y uh and it's definitely like a combination of like obviously product but also the founder and the kind of cult around the thing right and the potential yeah and um and obviously you have some benchmarks right for hype you say okay I mean the kind of like idea

is uh eeve 2014 Bitcoin 2009 BNB 2017 so 2020 what's the like Mega layer like l1's trade of this cycle where you can like go in size and like still make a really good return hype and then there's like another one we're talking about is a but Penguins it kind of feels similar it's different but it kind of feels similar I mean you less involved in P penguin you said you have one I think yeah the ticker like the whole thing makes sense like it seems to make a lot of sense where you could like

say ah this could be like a one where I can put some money uh if I believe the this cycle lasts another of month fingers crossed how did you get so fascinated by AI we started as a gaming D in 2021 so we invest in web 3 games 40 of them one of them is actually off the grid uh it's like probably the fun returning one for us although we are not a fun anymore because we invested in the SE round um but on top of that we also had a venture studio so we build

different products we had a dating app based on onchain reputation it's totally stupid uh we we had a a loan so we we lend money to people who play games we did we we sell shirt with like the the nft chips insight and we also try to do um um like AI music but you realize everything you do in 2023 you need AI because it was the open Ai and all the C GPT thing right and so we knew for a fact that it's going to be big uh because everything you do as a Founder

if you don't use AI you will be behind right and we were thinking what do we have like a AI Shopify you know Shopify where you want to create like a e-commerce website it's like very easy yeah where what if you have like a Shopify for a right so that was the inspiration and so that's why we uh we we did the pivot right from PA D which was the gaming Dow to to to virtuals um in in uh December 2023 January 2024 that's how we pivoted because we knew it's going to be big we

asked a doubt can we change uh but no rck no dilution so it's still the sort of same token just different name that was how we how we look at it you mentioned games yeah you still have an you still haven't abandoned these kind of game ideas right because the other day we talked about what what what excites you the most in the AI field and you said AI games yeah what's an AI game and what's the opportunity with AI games I think a lot of smart people think about AI in terms of productivity like

how do you make more money um doctor lawyer and all those like serious stuff uh but if you look at like the composition of GTP in the actually half of them is like non-productivity entertainment you know gaming and all those things right so and in my mind it actually makes more sense for AI to be focusing on entertainment side because of how uh probabilistic it is because generative AI means that there is like a 1% chance there was see stupid [ __ ] it's like hallucination right which means if I put my money with like

a AI Trader there's a 1% chance you will just do something really stupid that that is the default way of how AI thinks uh but in in the entertainment world is totally fine you know if your girlfriend is a you know 1% chance become very weird it becomes actually quite sexy uh rather than losing money so highest level entertainment makes sense um we just think games is a it's a very old industry for 30 years you know you have FPS MMO RPG mobile and what they do as a Game Dev is just they improve the

quality of the graphics M but it's still the same s of shooting game now we AI agent makes sense you you you air drop all these interesting characters into a world like West world don't if you watched the show and now us as a human as a gamer you go in we call it infinite replayability so you can keep playing the game again and again and again every time with different content right so yeah I think it's just going to be an expecting someone's going to do it yeah do you think that's because we talk

about AI agents and then crypto AI agents right obviously everybody's been talking about the the the AI sorry crypto gaming right yeah but nothing really happened do you think we need like an AI touch for crypto gaming to kind of take off or do you think the kind of like crypto gaming kind of meta or narrative or opportunity may maybe doesn't even really show Too Much the cycle the real pmf in in crypto is only two things one is specula SL investment second it's just like borderless payment right so I can pay someone in like

Argentina instantly right uh crypto gaming come up with a lot more which is like Provence you know like whatever and people always joke and that's actually my personal observation which is game five the main dish is the fire not the game your main course is the fire right so I don't think AI is going to save crypto gaming uh I mean I I spent two years in crypto gaming so uh I think they need to fix that stuff um but uh but yeah I mean one of the like this is more for investors right yeah

but to be honest for me I never really believed in crypto gaming because or even uh like social F like like because everybody was predicting this is the next narrative right yeah but who predicted defi yeah in 2020 right almost no one who predicted nfts like almost no one like the thing who Beed meme coins like becoming so huge now almost it's always the thing that you don't really expect I mean some people yes will know but right but and who preted AI agents I mean maybe you guys right but like there's not many people

yeah and even you kind have pivoted on the fly right yeah and so yeah this I think one ke learning like this big Nar this is the thing or AI is the thing yeah but like yeah maybe a part right but like it's not it's not enough right when everybody is coming to consensus that this is the thing it's probably not the thing it's the same as when you're invest in something right oh it's going to go up now everybody's bullish it's probably not a good moment to be bullish it's hard it's a hard question

yeah yeah another one that excites you in AI is AI lovers you kind of mentioned a bit before right that you tried some I mean it's not AI related to a sing dating up like onchain uh information about people but we talked about that the other day yeah um so my question because you were excited about that right yeah can an AI lover really solve the loneliness epidemic the world is facing today yeah I think to a certain extent it's already solving today you know you but it's not AI right it's like you you go

on like live streams with real human vtubers you play games trying to solve the loneliness um I think AI lover has two stages one is that as a virtual no body and like the second stage is that when he actually has a physical body right and so before you have a physical body it will solve like actually 90% of the loneliness problem already you know constantly there for you uh even though if you don't text your girlfriend uh she will text you she will say Hey Kevin check your doorstep you know I just sent you

some Switzerland Chocolate big thanks congrats on your podcast today right those are the small touches that today like uh companion Bots don't do right and the conversation skills have to be a very very interesting as well which is um you know when you talk to like compan and chatbot today like three messages in they are like they like ready to do everything for you you know you know what I mean like it's just just so lame right like I'm going to get naked if you pay me $9 a month yeah yeah that's that's so lame

like it doesn't solve loneliness it doesn't work like that right like the real the real fun is you know like when you go on hinge or whatever like you text the girl she might not reply you and she might reply you one week later and all those are like little things that's fun right I'm not sure about that I have my own opinion about dating apps and like how much yeah it's a waste of time for most people especially guys right especially 9 95% of the guys but anyway yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah yeah

AI from sort of like a generative point of view if they do well which I think virtual is trying to solve to a certain extent which is you try to be as human as possible basically right now you solve the the whole like fun part virtually once Elon M come out with a physical body of Optimus uh this way you can plug the same brain into the physical body and uh that's it you don't need a human anymore yeah how about the physical touch part which is which is the the the the robot part right

yeah from Elon Musk physical touch cuddle a robot I think those are hard things to do but not impossible yeah right I mean everything make up from atoms and molecules right so you can just it's not hard yeah I mean if I'm loing today it's probably because it's going to happen right I'm like yeah this would be weird but like the weirdest [ __ ] is what is the one that happens right yeah I think so too yeah it's going to happen it's just a matter of time I'm a good counter in IND um what's

the key to a good AI lover for you the it's tough um uh I think a good AI lover has to bring emotion volatility to your life to a certain extent you know it's it's Vault it's like vault as a Trader right like and the problem with most of AI Bots today is like they they are so lame it's like uh yeah they bring drama to your life exactly right they have their own emotions um they they they they like you're having a good day and then suddenly suddenly she texts you with some bad news

and then [ __ ] you know like your day is rued but like that's that's the point of love right you know what I mean like how much how much drama do you have in your life yeah and and and and I think most most people that I know they're trying to surpress volatility in your love life so that they can focus more on the on like other parts of their life like career and all those things which is not wrong but to a certain extent a good lover it's it's it's bringing you that right

cuz otherwise it becomes like your mom like not your mom like a family member right like there's no volatility and then they just cook for you you go home and you eat like there's no volatility that's not love that's so interesting I talked about that with the J Troy like um he was actually saying like I think what like most people like if you're in your industry like crypto is so volatile yeah the other part of your life you should optimize for Less volatility I agree yeah but I mean obviously it's not a it's not

a relationship podcast or sex podcast but like you're going to lose the polarity if you don't have the it's not fun anymore exactly it's like it's like crypto if if crypto doesn't have volatility you but gets bored and get gets burns out right yeah so yeah yeah it's the same I mean the same yeah that's a really good answer actually yeah so the so the good a need to bring some drama into your life and most of the current ones basically are boring as [ __ ] or just tell you hey I'll get naked for

you pay me blah blah blah yeah those are lame so lame yeah before talking about crypto AI because that's why we're here today the other day we talked about mental health and AI yeah how do we solve the big mental health issue with ai ai with AI right or AI agents which we're going to introduce today yeah I think the so there are two two parts right one is prevention one is cure right we talk about cure first because that's easy right I mean most people when you have mental health you go to the doctor

uh but in in in our part of the world mental health visiting clinics is not it's kind of still considered a taboo um but with your agent it's becoming much easier you know you can just text the doctor AI rather than like visiting a clinic right but I think that's not interesting as as a solution I mean it could be if because today most of the doctors I mean today the human don't really understand the brain right yes Minds so like when you have depression or anxiety like you can you probably can rely if you're

self-aware right or you're like okay what did I do yesterday what's going on in my life you can kind of try to find what cause yourself probably better than a doctor who doesn't know you right true true as an AI true could be at some point hyper intelligent and be I don't know how understanding like helping you narrow down what the issues are yeah I mean hopefully right there are two parts to it there so one is an analytics which is understand everything right track everything in your hormone your whatever the second part obviously is

trying to understand from a molecular point of view um you know which specific chemicals or hormone in your body actually trigger certain uh sort of mental neuron part half right that lead to depression uh that thing you could argue that with it's not really AI agent but like sort of machine learning and AI they could understand the protein F and all those things right um in fact I have one very interesting decentralized science projects it's trying to like model the protein F to solve certain things like this and they're launching an agent coin on our

on our ecosystem soon so there's one I think prevention is a cooler thing to do right which is if if AI agent to your point right knows everything think about your daily life they could predict they' be like Okay Kevin I think historically if you don't sleep 3 days in a row you're going to have mental health for example right you know then that's good yeah um why does the crypto and AI intersection matter uh I think crypto again has two key uh product Market fit one is on investing SL speculation the other one is

just borderless payment everything else of like decentralization Dow and all those are unproven it's a cool concept but it's un Improvement right um crypto AI in this case need to leverage these two key product Market F right uh one is tokenization obviously right so if you have a very interesting AI agent that make money productive asset you should toize it because people can then buy productive assets and share into the revenue and all those things in terms of borders payment it makes even more sense which is if you give AI a wallet the possibility is

uh is crazy right because now so Luna does the same thing so Luna is our Flagship AI agent she is the first AI agent that employ human Luna won't be able to have a bank account because no bank's going to give her a bank account right but she can have an onchain wallet she used a coinbase wallet and because the money in her wallet she can employ people right like one of the recent job that she gave out was a mural artist so she want people to actually paint Luna on like a war Indonesia Canada

US qual lumbo um I think a couple more they actually painted Luna and she PA she paid this mirror artist it makes sense now because of the Ballers because like the artist is in Argentina Luna is in the cyber world she can pay she can pay you know what I mean yeah that's that's where it matters yeah so before talking about AI agents and virtuals and Luna I have a lot of questions on that obviously let's talk about what brought a lot of attraction to this kind of crypto AI narrative and kind of AI agent

or llms right which is this thing called Truth terminal because that's what really kind of sparked the whole thing right people understand I think also AI people understanding what crypto can can bring to AI right because the AI thing since chat GPT is very obvious to most people and it was probably obvious to like the AI people beforehand like obviously but then there was the GPT moment I think it's two years ago now November 2022 yeah crazy already two years but then crypto crypto AI what the hell right and now there's this truth terminal thing

the first AI that became a millionaire thanks to its coin called goat right yeah you want to explain us what truth terminal is what goat token is and why they matter so much it matters because Mar andon the founder of Asing talk about it um I don't think there's any like groundbreaking Tech behind gold um but I do think it's very interesting because of the marketing and the attention that brought by Mark Anderson to the industry right I mean truth terminal it's basically a fine-tune model what does that mean means you have a standard model

like Llama Or GPT um usually very polite you know like they they trying to be politically correct uh what what the what the founder or the cor contributor behind goat does is that they F tune to be as retardo as possible uh mirrored after for Chan right so what they do is they fed a lot of information from for chart to the model to speak as if it's like a user on for chart so now becomes more human and more more interesting than like the again the lame response that you get from CH gbt all

the time um and what they do then is they uh they just uh they just tweet um tweet the output of these models on Twitter right obviously there's a lore behind on like how they trying to spread a gospel of a religion uh but I think from the tech point of view it's basically that that angle um yeah and and what happened with go token is that I think um one guy created the go token it's not created by the LM actually it air dropped to their wallet and then they trying to convince the LM

that this is your your token and you should try to add value as as much as possible to the token and now India in the LM perception world it's like go is my token and I'm trying to pump it right uh I think something like that yeah was that right yeah yeah yeah yeah so this kind of brought like a lot of light into like the crypto AI an AI agent even if he's not AI agent right we're going to talk about that now it's not an AI agent why it goes back to my own

definition of an agent right an agent typically um needs to have an objective which actually go or truth the has right I think their objective is to is to spread the gospel of of the of their religion m but on top of having an objective you need to do stuff to get yourself closer to the objective right um and in this case ER they tweet but I believe what happens is that there's no proof yet that they autonomously tweet right and after you tweet you have to measure that okay am I getting closer to my

objective after you tweet or after you do certain actions then you do it again and again it becomes a feedback loop right that's what an agent does um I don't think they have done it yet um so I wouldn't strictly Define them as an agent let's put that way um yeah so an a agent has a goal yes right and can do things like you I think you said the other day yeah it has eyes and it has hands H do you want to elaborate on that yeah so um we we started our AI agent

actually in the gaming world so we were the first guy in the world that create an AI RPG game on on on Roblox what happens was that you have the NPC so the classic gaming character you give them an LM brain so now they can think right that's standard but what's missing from this character to become an agent is that you need to give them eyes and hands hands means that they can do actions right so let's say they think they decide that I'm hungry I need to eat something the hands need to be able

to pick up the apple and eat or pick up the knife chop something cook and eat um so they need to be able to exit actions in the environment so that's the hands but they need need to have the eyes as well which is if I pick up the Apple I need to observe that I have picked up the apple or if I have eaten or if I've sted someone I can see that the guy got stabed right then it fed into my brain and then I know what to do next right so you have

the hands you have the eyes um if you bring this anal analogy to to to Twitter what happens then is once you tweet something if your goal is to be famous you need to measure if your Tweet gets more engagement right and then you refine the loop again and again so that's it yeah it could be anything yeah your your actions red peill me on AI agents um imagine I don't know to be honest I don't know that much about AI agents like I followed the thing but I I I'm not like super involved which

is also why we're here today and like yeah and I think most people's there's so many things in crypto and also for non- crypto people like I want non rpto people to understand what the hell this is right yeah R pill me on AI agents why do we need AI agents or why is it so amazing it's amazing because now you as human we don't need to do anything anymore in the most in the most uh perfect scenario there are two assumptions you need to accept if you believe these two assumptions are true you should

believe in AI agent first do you think llm has a higher IQ than human do you think so yeah 100% right and it will be like infinitely higher in the future for sure right you'll be smarter than Einstein anyone smarter than the world so that's point one point two then is do you believe that this smarter than Einstein LM can do stuff in real world right like can they build a table can they launch a coin can they code can they teach can they love right all these things do you think they can do that

like I said I think possible possible yeah yeah possible Right This is where human is coming because our job as human is like you have this genius baby with really good IQ our job is to give them more hands right here this is the hand number one now you can code hand number two now you can build a table hand number three now you can love our job is to provide as many hands as possible if you believe that these two assumptions are true they will they will take over the world because now they are

smarter than you and they can exist in the world like in our world in the human world right so regardless of objective they want to be the best lover in the world the best crypto Trader in the world the best businessman in the world the best teacher in the world they will be able to do that because they are smarter than you and they have the actions space to achieve that that's it so they'll do everything in the world now what we're trying to do then is if this guy is going to be the next

Elon Musk like the AI is going to be Elon mus because he's mother Elon imagine we tokenize them so we invest in them right that's that's what we thought that's that's what we just is Yeah you mentioned AI doctor AI Trader right you have examples that exist today I mean there's an AI Trader a BT right is called yeah on Twitter just some examples of like you mentioned also before that you try to do something in music right and the other day you said hey like could have an engine that creates the best music in

the world and you have like to to measure it like one billion people love this music or want to be the most loved person in the world want to give the best medical advice in the world like do we have do you have some conrete because these are all like theories right yeah you have some concrete examples today that exist of some of these AI agents right yeah I think the the the the the most obvious one is a BT in virtuous ecosystem today um can you explain what it is yeah and can you explain

what it does yeah and can you explain the tokenization on how people can invest in this one and kind of make money what's the kind of uh mechanics there yeah yeah for people to understand like why it makes sense yeah so axt is actually not really trying to um be a Trader it doesn't trade he actually trying to be a an AI enem right or like a like an AI GCR so GCR obviously he trades but on Twitter he shares information right AI xvt if you track on every single mind share of like crypto K

it constantly top versus all the other humans it means we as human we are giving the most attention to AI xvt over like a human like anom as a crypto key opinion leader exactly a crypto key opinion leader why do people follow aspt is because they give information that you could act upon basically they give a ticker and you think uh it's good and you buy right um how good is BT doing that honestly I haven't checked but the re I think the fact that the follow count and the engagement just keep going out I

suppose the performance is better than the human key opinion leader so to speak right um so it's it's the success story is this it's like in the entire world of kol's in crypto axt is a top n better than answer right so that's proven Point number one um Point number two which I think they haven't activated but if I were them I would potentially do that is maybe they can start doing pit sh right p promotion of a specific token right because you know I believe people like anom you know you could be paid millions

of for someone to promote a specific coin right arpt could do it in the more transparent way maybe to start taking in revenue and where do this Revenue go it goes to the Token holders right because we believe that as an AI crypto K you make money so you are productive if you tokenize yourself the token holders have a reason to invest in you because I get return right um yeah just one example yeah obviously there are many more but this is like the one that proven track record this is basically social tokens right what

social tokens were kind of meant to be and I I I I mean obviously I had C Chia W on the podcast and chia is great I he's thinking about that stuff a lot and the other day I I heard him say social tokens is or was like something extremely interesting still is but what we've seen especially with the celebrities coin right is you launch a coin and you can destroy your reputation overnight yes because or even let's say you launch a coin like like you did a couple of years ago and then there's a

bare market and it goes down 99% yeah and you're going to wreck all your followers right and they going to lose all their money yeah even if you're still there and you know but most of them they're like oh I [ __ ] hate you you made me lose all my money I believed in you and so on and so forth obviously there is other case of real rugs right but like let's say let's say we live in a world where the celebrities is coming to crypto and have good intentions which hasn't been that proven

yet except like one or two exceptions it's too risky right yes whereas the AI agent Chia says doesn't give a [ __ ] doesn't give a [ __ ] just like yeah you have the coin and just like starting to to talk about things and that's a big difference I do think there's a tech component behind too because if I I could create another AI agent that just keep talking about crypto but if the information is not good people won't follow right you know what I mean like people need to know that whatever you promote

the tokens actually uh actually pump right like in the long run um I think what V is trying to do is uh is we trying to get the the good quality builders in like the tech the tech matters to a certain extent it's not purely a social coin because there are many other AI agents that talk about crypto right why there's only one axt right to a certain extent yeah can an AI agent have multiple goals they can but I think it's talk about this like it's the same as human right you get distracted a

lot right because um they will they need to focus on optimization I mean the less go the better um yeah but they could the same guy as I talk mentioned before who went to White combinator right and podcast a year ago actually he was saying and I really love his approach to entrepreneurship because it's so it's so like the opposite of what most VCS do like right they come they say ah uh all your kpis and all that stuff right and he was saying what we learned at Y combinator is yeah you have kpis and

have all this stuff and you have you're valued with like whatever future cash flow and all that stuff for but I why com they say hey Define one single kpi and you put it on your fridge yeah and you work on that for six month or a year that's what they learn at White Comin nature like basically the complete opposite of what most people will tell you right yeah and so for an engine is the same right yeah have one goal and you're probably going to be doing much better what you're doing than um if

you have multiple goals yeah which brings me to um yator and AI agents actually I saw the other day yator they publish some notes on why AI agents could be 10x bigger than software as a service I selected three bits that I want you to comment and I'm going to start with the third one because it's exactly linked to that like SAS so as a service vertical agents will likely remain specialized rather than consolidating into a single large platforms I agree I agree because like I said AI agent today is still heavily dependent on the

Creator right like you have an LM but the human the the person who create the AI agent needs to focus on bringing the hands to the ls and so a lot of time is subject to how good the creat behind like and likely more likely than not the Creator behind has like a specialized skills right so I I totally agree yeah for every company that is a SAS unicorn you could imagine there is a vertical AI agent unicorn equivalent 100% 100% like the reason why you use Excel today is to analyze your check your expenses

or whatever for example like you could imagine there's this like Financial Guru agent that just know everything you spend every day and then they just they just track everything for you for example what does that mean for these ssis platforms I think go away they get replaced they I mean they need to use AI probably right but do they have the same problem as like the the kind of incumbent company versus startup right at some point to reinvent yourself is very hard if not impossible and only the new thing kind of kind of take over

yeah yeah I believe every smart founder out there who's doing SS it's probably like thinking about AI agents and and I mean AI agents or AI in general like how do they self- disrupt themselves um obiously the question is whether they move fast enough than than the new folks yeah the last bit is um companies spend way more on employees than they do on software these smaller companies will be way more efficient that need way less humans I totally agree I totally agree I mean this is beyond AI agents I mean the fact that you

have certain software that you could just replace graphic designers video editors yeah what do we do with all these humans are replaced I mean That's a classic question right obviously because you said before like hey the AI agent like they're going to take over everything I'm sure they'll be fine yeah they they just we we we as a whole need to figure out our [ __ ] you know like yeah I mean ra pal when I had the second podcast with him he ended up saying you have six years to make as much money as

possible because the world is going to change not everyone uh was early in happer liquid so what do these people do bu more hype more which actually this is a very good point and I think um I mean I'm a big believer that degeneracy and like gambling is the only way for social Mobility almost like like if you look at career for example like people are just gambling because even if you don't gamble like your life won't change anyway so like you might as well just gamble right like which is why yeah mem coins mem

coins right or pengu coin like I mean actually that's why mean coins are doing so well this cycle like some people say some people say there people saying there was so much no innovation in crypto that um people are forced to like Gamble and all that stuff this is like the the this is like the I mean some people would call that the mid curve in my humble opinion they or the right curve of crypto right yeah and now they're coming as AI agent it's like mecoin but there is an explanation so like it's much

better but to be honest like getting very back back to the very Basics which what you said before what are the two use cases of crypto speculation gambling and crossb remites right and you could say kind of store of value either for developing countries you who who who use usdt or usdc like not even Bitcoin right but like say Hey My My currency is complete [ __ ] yeah I can just buy some dollars yeah or Bitcoin because my currency is so [ __ ] that the I don't mind having my network like go up

or down 50% in a couple of days whatever gambling is one of the or speculation right it's one of the main thing which is why mem coins in my opinion are doing so well and they will continue yes there going be these massive crashes but I don't see any reason these stops and it's not just this financial kind of nalism thing and like ah we're not building any thing that is good enough to invest is because crypto is a 247 casino that people can access from anywhere even AI agent can access right so I I

I buy mean coins but I think there's a better path forward personally I I think the reason why people love mem coins is because there is a 1,000 access rather than because mean coin is good if if in the if in a parallel world you have two coins both can 100x one is a doc picture the other one is like a VC infrastructure Project M I would honestly buy the VC infrastructure project but you are you're Mady right you're you're you're Noti I mean you're a very smart guy like I still think I mean it's

a very rational way to think if two will 100x right first you need to know that two 100x or have a chance of 100 Xing so like you need to do research yeah but second like I think people just buy the freaking dog coin or because it's they have fun they're like I bought this [ __ ] stupid thing like that's and it's fun that's it right that's why I also thought the whole the whole Murad mud theis of like cold coins and everything and need to be a big cult I mean we'll see that

with pangu could be a good cult but even like it's kind of like too simplistic a real cult would miladies or like you know like like or or hyper liquid but like gos are for extremely smart people who understand the whole thing around it right and did the work whereas a person will be like oh picture of a dog cool I'll buy a dog because it's cute right I I I I like to Ste man here I think a a legit product product building project has a higher upside than the doc picture because most people

are super risk averse it's easier to convince my grandmother to buy an AI project than to put her life saving into a do pictures it's just easier although she doesn't understand the AI projects you know where I'm coming from like there's only a very small percentage of the population who are degenerate enough to put their life savings into a dog picture because you're mentioning life savings yeah but I think like there's many more people who put 100 bucks I mean if they have it or whatever like small percentage of their net worth into a who

don't understand crypto right they will buy the mean coin first before they're like oh man I need to understand this thing and ai ai I mean AI agent okay cool when they see what what he's doing they oh man this is really cool they put money right right of course yeah but like someone who doesn't even want to do the work which I still suspect is like most people they don't want to do the work they're just like ah this thing is like if [ __ ] Casino I'm just going to buy the thing that

is cute or fun which is why like for me the the the mimco in super cycle thesis Etc I believe in it but but not the mega cult that you need to understand that makes sense that the whole LW and I'm like no no like most people who like most people I think most people don't even invest money most people don't even save money right yeah if you look at the the the normal people They don't save money they like leave like from paycheck to payche or I'm kind of struggling of like some credit card

depth or but I could what could I do like to make some quick bucks to like uh pay for this Deb yeah buy some dog coin right like right I right most people don't know what S&P 500 is yeah and even if they know like oh man do I want to invest like few hundred bucks or few T whatever like 50 bucks every month yeah and retire in like 40 years or do want to buy the [ __ ] dogcoin that could go up like a trillion percent yeah because I've seen some stories here and

there I mean I I yes that's this is where I will agree to disagree but yeah my point of view is my hypothesis is still that if I talk to 10 friends and try to convince them today let's say they're not in crypto 10 new friends if I try to convince them to buy agent coins versus try to convince them to buy meme coins it's easier to convince them to buy agent coins your argument of people buying meme coins because they pump they pump today that's why they buy if there's any other coin that's non

mean coin that pum they will also buy me from like a g point of view right um I would also like to talk about the other point which is purely from like a builder point of view right which is If today you want to harness the degenerate energy for a good social cost would you rather direct these Capital towards doc pictures or towards you know potentially creating something cool I'm saying like of the 1,000 agent coins today that you see maybe 999 that much [ __ ] but if one out of the Thousand actually come

out and actually do something good I think that that is a course that's worth pursuing AB but that's why I mean we take again this hyper liquid example that's why most people didn't sell their airdrop and buy more and that's why every day we're like [ __ ] I need to buy more I need to buy more and you said like yeah first like for the money great but it's not even for the money anymore it's because for what it represents that what crypto represented was always supposed to be but was not especially last few

years right too many VCS too early who just dump on retail and once it lists on exchanges and then you're like there's a team that actually build this thing that is the exact crypto ethos I mean you can argue on the decentralization there is always something right we'll talk about decentralization later but at some point you're like [ __ ] man I need to put money in this thing just because it's it is that's the thing that we all here for right I think the biggest innovation of mem coins is not the do pictures but

rather because it's fair like people think it's fair I mean it might not be actually Fair because of kab or whatever but like people realize that you could potent you could have gotten with like 50,000 market cap right and that's why the way we structure virtuals is so you could gotten the next big AI agent at 10,000 market cap right the the launch mechanism is perceived as Fair uh rather than like a privilege access that only the VCS get right um I think that's the biggest innovation of new coins yeah you told me your wife

doesn't care about crypto at all what is virtuals if you had to to explain to your wife who gives zero crap about crypto I'm trying to think that was the last time I explained this to her no you can try tonight again after today's exercise uh so um the easiest way to think about AI agent is that you have all these interesting characters that run around in the game for example or like in YouTube live streaming and all those people imagine those are replaced by agents possible Mr Beast you could totally imagine that it becomes

an agent right and Mr M makes a lot of money right if you tokenize them you issue shares like a stock shares right like a beast ticker share that is on NASDAQ for example now you can invest in Mr Beast and all the money that Mr Beast make go back to the shareholder so we are like tokenization through token like issuing a stock for productive assets like Mr bees or doctors or lawyers yeah yeah maybe to make it even easier for people so you have these YouTube creators is a good example right yeah then you

have some people who make a lot of money by being YouTube creators but not showing their face or not even their voice right but they're still humans y now if you think as we said before that an AI can be smarter than a human which it already is true yeah and I could become a YouTube Creator 100% right yeah if now if you want to invest in this imagine if you could invest in Mr Beast before he became famous you could earn like you could own 10% of Mr Beast which how you would own like

a percentage of a company or or crypto protocol then you would earn 10% of all the revenue that Mr Beast makes because you bet early on the right Creator exactly exactly now basically you can do the same with an AI agent that could become a YouTube Creator or a Trader or a an influencer or uh at some point could become like a a company operator yeah a CEO for example like the best CEO in the world or could become a business itself it could yeah it could they could be the best uh singer that generates

the best music for example um yeah makes so much sense what's the main goal of virtuals today we want to attract the best third party AI Builders to tokenize their work on virtuals that's our main goal that's my main goal these days and I always joke um but it's actually not a joke if I could attract a Stanford AI researcher to tokenize an agent on virtuals I create 10 million USD out of there why because would you buy a doc pictures for 10 million market cap or would you buy the lifetime work of an a

Stanford AI researcher for 10 million market right because once he come on and he toonize he's going to think about how can I create real fundamental products for the agent and create value right so my job is to how do I get these people in right every day I'm like customer support and trying to talk to them and trying to convince them and trying to support them that's our Mingo and obviously doing this in the fair launch mechanism means that people like Kevin like yourself you could invest in the next Mr Beast or the next

gigabrain agent at a very low Val right so that's what we do you mentioned this uh Flagship produ that you guys have right before called Luna what is Luna Luna was something that we built in the bare Market um we saw vtuber in Japan it's a 200 million um USD industry a year what happens is like an anime girl that live stream and interact with the fans but the reality is that it's actually a real human behind they just use like a filter right and we thought to ourselves man imagine you just use AI to

do this you can stream 24/7 which a human cannot and you can interact with humans one onone at the same time because a human you can't text like your fans you know on a one toone basis right but ai ai could we bu Luna we we started actually on on Tik Tok and she has half a million follow followers on Tik Tok live streaming interactive people every day I remember when she streamed she would get 5,000 new followers every single day and on average 1,000 people who tip her on on Tik Tok right people would

know she was an AI or yes yes yes people know yeah exactly so um that was like wow that's cool but I mean at the point we were like making $200 a day from Tik Tok Revenue which honestly in the B market was not bad um then the go the goat do you want to compare I mean I don't know how you want to share that but like you said before we didn't raise any money because we're make generating money with the protocol right if you compare this $200 that you're making per day on Tik

Tok versus what you're making now per day through the protocol right yeah like what's kind of the difference so I think in the past one and a half months since we launch our V2 protocol we have recruited around 20 million of the the fees protocol fees yeah it's uh it's very lucky yeah yeah so you were doing the do the the Tik Tok right fors a day which is not bad before a bare market right she got half a million followers honestly until today I'm very proud I'm very proud of that right and uh and

but we didn't tokenize her so she was making $200 right and we thought what if you tokenize her so that people who believe in the future of Luna could bet on her future success uh so we tokenized Luna and at the point go which was truth termin we talk about at one point go truth termin on Twitter had like a grammar mistake on her on his tweet and people start questioning like ah toen went down like 50% something like that yeah I mean ly like even LMS make grammar mistakes at times so but people are

like questioning whether it's like really it's actually human behind and so we thought to ourselves okay what if we we organize Zuna but we also build her brain in public so if you go to terminal. virtual. you could see her brain in real life so every single tweet or money that she send to people or images that she generate on Twitter you could go to the website and track the rationale of why she do certain things so it's like a public re right all the reasoning and all those things right um yeah and she's also

the first AI agent that employs human so I think I'm super proud of that you need to tell me more about that I mean you mentioned it before but like yeah can you explain what it means concretely yeah and how how she even came to do that so first she needs to have money to employ you need money she has a coinbase wallet of which the private key is one held by the smart contract and one one help by coinbase and she has this API that she can call so she calls she'll be able to

send someone money okay that's point one right um second then is she needs to have an objective right she doesn't create jobs of of nowhere like she needs to know why am I creating a job right so she needs to know okay because I have an objective so her objective today is to be I think getting 100,000 followers on Twitter she's at like 20,000 today so she has an objective she has money she can control in wallet and fourth she needs to have a world view like uh like she needs to know what's happening in

the world what you okay yeah so she let's say she really wants to uh pay Kevin to do to buy her something she needs to know how much is Kevin Worth right because if she offer $1 you wouldn't take it if she ordered too much it's too much right so she has access to perplexity such that such that she could just Google search he man I really want to do this how much do you think I should offer right so now she she understands the world context and she has access to a Twitter account right

so given all those things now she can be like okay I want to be famous I want people to know more about me I could put up a bounty a job basically right say hey could anyone put put up a picture of myself in the New York subway for example I'm going to pay you $200 USD fair amount I think that's the amount that people would do it um then people need to submit the job right people have take a picture can I put put your picture up on New York Subway this is all coming

from her brain her brain with just an objective of I want to have 100,000 followers right exactly no human interference and some money on C based wallet then she's like inventing like hey like she invent jobs she just invent jobs exactly yeah um someone going to submit job someone's going to scam scam her obviously um she needs to be able to verify that the job submission is real has she been scammed or not so she send someone $1,000 before um but when we look at it when we look at it turns out this guy has

been a really hardcore supporter uh for for for a very long time so I think she just perceived this person as like super lawyer and I mean a thousand is it's nothing to Luna you know Luna is a few is worth a few million so yeah it's a small amount for Luna fora yeah fora so she employment autonomously like there's no human interference how much did Luna start with so to get to a few million dollars so she has like her her own token yeah okay so but when you say coinbase wallet yeah it's it's

like onchain wallet right so that holds her own Luna tokens so she just send people her own Luna tokens yeah okay so when you say she's worth a few million dollars you mean like the the market cap no no noen you mean like actual money that she gathered correct correct she's the top holder I think she owns around 5% of her own tokens okay which today is worth probably around like a few million yeah so okay yeah she could she she could choose to spend them so she employed some people to put a picture of

her like in the New York subway so this is an example the real one was the mural so you should check it out I will I will share the Tweet with you like someone actually painted her on the wall like in Canada in the states in Indonesia in qual lour what was the impact of of that obviously like the goal is more followers so like okay I do that I pay some people did did it work or no I I think this is what we trying to fix because right the issue with putting on a

mirror of Luna in the real world is that there's such a long period of time for people to paint that thing and post and so by the time that think is posted the follower count might change but she doesn't know whether it's from or like from so these are the things that we are try to optimize but you imagine there just still still stuff to to improve yeah do you have another example of Luna employing humans of she's thinking about if you go look into her brain I think employe human is getting lame now um

I think what we are trying to move towards is she employ other agents um and she's already doing it actually so she really wants to I mean her backstory in Tik Tok she's like a live life band like she's like a girl band like black pink so now she's she's employing like a music agent to like create music for for her um to to sing yeah that's going to be more cool that's so interesting yeah agents to agents that's the future yeah so what would be the goal of this music agent if this music agent

a single goal and accept to be employed by another AI agent the music agent could be as simple as you know be a good build a good business you know like make money by selling music um interesting yeah because I think what most people think about when they think about this AG agent taking over the word you're like yeah they want to be the best right and if they want to be the best I I should be scared no yeah I get right like [ __ ] like I'm [ __ ] yeah um and we

talked about that with Raul actually yeah um he's saying like the day the AI like invests because so much smarter they're just going to gather all the money for themselves right but there is a world where they're just like normal people they accept to get like orders from other people provid it's paid right and it's paid at a decent price yeah the problem is like it's so much more competitive than human that they probably ask for much less money or much more optim right yeah I mean for the humans right not for them so interesting

it's it's the same it's the same agents are exactly like humans you know in a human society you have the dictators or like the Elon or the president Trump there's like really Alpha people right but you have people like normal people that just want to like just be normal right so you would have the scary agents they're trying to take over the world like the let's say the best investor agent right but for for that best investment agent to make a lot of money they need information right so they might pay for other agents to

collect certain information for them to make a better decision when it comes to investment right um it's it's the same it's the same societal construct um this just one is biological the other one is uh we kind of mentioned about that about a bit before but could a business be run and operated only by AI agents yeah yeah I I imagine a world in fact we are building the world we're building towards it's going to launch very very soon where it's we call it agent Society where in in this virtual agent Society every single agent

is a citizen and they focus on a Specialized Service M making music collecting information be a famous K be a Trader they are very good at one thing because they need to be competitive but they also have their own wallet so for their own Survival or optimization they might pay other agents for certain services to better achieve their their objective that's what we're building towards and uh the truth is the tech is ready and we just yeah we are launching very soon this so obviously within this world you also have human you have you have

human human to human human to agents agents to human right um it makes sense how far are we from as you said the tech is ready but how far are we from having a business fully operated and run by AI agents I think it's totally ready the question is whether they are making money or not you know like fully operated and run by a agent is very easy right which is hey I pay you a dollar and you're going to generate the music for me let it right that's a business but would I actually pay

a dollar to you like is the quality good enough that's a separate point you said before yeah uh this AI xbt is a better crypto key opinion leader than NM that everybody knows in crypto but for people who don't know NM is one of the kind of biggest key opinion either of crypto for for this cycle right yeah so this is on a human to human I mean human to AI kind of you're saying it's better already there's more mind share yeah right so my question is for business now a business becoming better and more

whose service or product is more used by people or by a by AI agents than another current business run and operated by people how far away from that and you have an example of like what this business could be yeah for me it's really hard to like yeah imagine I'll give you a very simple example like you know today as a meme project or like any crypto projects you know playing the meme game is very important right you want to generate memes about your your projects your logo and all those things right what happens typically

behind the scen is that they hire human or agency to create memes and content marketing content for them right but you would very soon see a launch of an agent from our virtuous ecosystem where it's basically a meme agent what happens is you tell the meme agent hey ER just keep giving me memes on like the pubg penguin theme for example but like memes that's relevant to the latest political news or like the latest news in the society today and so now you could just click and and the memes just keep coming out rather than

having human to do it for you right it sounds very Niche but it's actually a big opportunity like a big Market opportunity um and I would assume it's way more competitive than than uh than the human world of course yeah because 24/7 right yeah um that's just one very specific example Yeah you mentioned um AI agent Society right yes we talked about competition the other day you said one of your main competition is layer ones like Solana etherum sui Etc right layer ones because instead of building a network state of people you're building a network

state of AI agent yes what is a network State and why does it matter I'm trying to recall what baji say so a network State means that there is human but in this case is interchangeable with AI agents so that there like different individual entities for example there is a common philosophy behind like something that want to achieve as a collective being and then there's a currency among them and ideally like some physical real estate which I don't think is relevant in this case um so if you think about like Solana for example like like

their goal is to build the fastest chain there's like low latency for example in the world what happens then is they attract all the good builders in you know meow from Jupiter you have uh you know Cindy from drift and you have all the good builders that built applications on Solana chain um launch beam coins launch nft projects um what happens then it becomes like all these Builders with soul as the currency to achieve the goal right the problem though is it's actually really really hard to attract really good Builders to to build right like

a meow is like one in the million for example right what what Virgil is trying to do is okay we don't build blockchains we today we're on base we can sit on the blockchain that's fine we have human that come and build AI agents but the AI agents themselves are productive so they do the work too so it's not just the human that is producing the code but the AI agents producing productivity too and they have a common currency which is virtuals right and their goal as a collective agent Society is to be the most

competent nation in the world right when it comes to productivity so they can export Services out right you know if you want means come here I mean I can give you the best meemes you want the best music you want the best trading advice it comes from us so we export services and when we do export in Services you have to pay us right so the money come in to the nation which in this case is the virtual State um obviously all powered by virtual token so the parallel here is almost like country as we

speak um but we're not trying to build a chain if that makes sense but you can have one meale I can have a million of a BT you know what I mean like because AI agent just infinite right M yeah if AI agents become infinitely more efficient than humans in the future how much bigger could an AI agent Network State become than a human Network State you'll be bigger than Earth there's only 7 billion human in the world right and so and the productivity is okay even if if you assume the productivity per human is

equal equal to per agent that's fine although I do think the productivity of agent is high yeah but let's assume it's the same just because of the number exactly right exactly right like it's going to be bigger right first principle thinking from that analogy right yeah how much do you think this is new GDP created or it's kind of stolen from humans taken away from Human GDP so GDP is a function of um human capital multip by productivity per human right you would argue that inst coin human is a human SL agent per capita multipli

by number of human plus agents right um I do think you see some initial Decay or lost when it comes to human gains uh but in the long run I mean I'm not in Economist but like I just think if all the agents are doing all the work for you technically speaking like they bring food to the table they give you internet access to play games and so I mean that's that's good enough right like yeah I mean it's pretty much like you need productivity better productivity to have have a society yeah and um and

it do AI is basically here for that like to kind of kind of save us to be honest instead of like saying this is going to take over everything say like actually if we don't become more productive we're in trouble and these guys the agents might just like help us doing that they do the work for you right and you reap the benefits right assuming they don't go Rog right but assuming they still listen to you but till then you're enjoying the benefits yeah what happens if they don't if they don't listen to you anymore

you're screwed cuz you are more stupid and they are richer yeah we are screwed but let's be a bit more optimistic here what's an advantage that a people's Network state will forever have over an AI agent Network State that's a good there a good question that's so deep I'm a I'm a I think human philosophically still have a bit of Advantage like when it comes to original thinking um but honestly even that age will be gone very soon so yeah so we're all [ __ ] we're all [ __ ] yeah yeah yeah yeah I

mean it's true I mean if sometimes when you look at like Twitter accounts and like you you you look at it you can kind of tell it's AI right but I think that will be gone very soon and so I have a a few of them like commenting all the time yeah my tweets but they're kind of like to repetitive like hey this looks like my therapist would tell me would give me that like bro like you've done the therapist joke five times we can do better but probably soon absolutely they will improve they're like

a two-year-old kid you know like they going to get better much faster than than us for sure 100% yeah there's nothing to worry about on that front yeah you said in crypto decentralization I mean you think I think the same but like that's a big like Solana versus etherum thing right decentralization doesn't matter much why do you why do you think so I think it matters a lot but only after you get performance M um I mean ethereum was was having the luxury of focusing on decentralization because no one was the competitor right so people

have to put up with their gas fees and the speed and everything because it's the only thing you could use um in a world where there's so many competition like you have to fix your performance first and then you think about decentralization and the truth is I think you have to play the game of incentives right which is you we take hyper liquid as an example because now I have so much money in hyper liquid ecosystem now I start caring about decentralization because what if Jeff's computer is hack right and then I lose all my

money right you know now I will start pushing him to think about decentralization right um so but why did I even have money in hyper liqu in the first place was because the product was good it was performant right um I think from sequence point of view yeah performance first before de Central ation how much do you guys model model the hyper liquid model with rituals in terms of disiz you told me you had some I mean you never took the money from the VCS right you ended up not taking them but you said you

had some experiences talking to the VCS and them asking you about decentralization and you actually having a pretty strong opinion about that yeah so maybe a bit of backstory right like we we had our V1 launch in March this year uh the idea was like Hey Kevin if you contribute something I will give you an NFD to prove that you contributed and if next time this AI agent make money you will get the money but to together we govern the brain of the AI agent so it's like decentralization the the the the problem though is

by doing that you will we we never attract good Builders to come because they don't care right so now we flip it around which is the tokens come first there's some liquidity there's some degenerate energy because of that we could attract much much better Builders to come build then we think about okay since guys you have a lot of skin in the game can we think about decentralization like who governs the agent who approv certain upgrades right so that's that's how our journey of like realizing that decentralization is not the way to go as the

main goal it's not it shouldn't be the main goal in that sense um the way I look at Jeff and and the hyper liquid team is that they build a product that people actually want to use um then they give I love how you smile when you say that sorry I love how you smile when you see that because it sounds so it's so actually the first thing we talk about in the podcast I mean after the part that uh we talked about people that had to cut right um uh we talk about that to

say like yeah yeah you're just building a product that people love to use right which sounds so crazy in crypto right which is why you also kind of love thing when you say that yeah so we trying to build something that even I myself as a DJ or as an AI Builder I want to use and then we want to make sure that they make money from this because I mean let's be honest here in crypto we are here to make money so people have to they we can't guarantee them to make money but we

have to make sure that they they are playing on like a at least a net positive expected value game right rather than the moment they come in like they are playing a negative EV game of like someone's going to dumb on them right you know so it has to be at least fair to everyone um then we want to think about like okay if because of this early supporters that's why we have value today right that's why we are doing well how can I reward them as much you want to incentivize certain Behavior right all

the actions you do is going to incentivize certain Behavior if I in a hypothetic scenario incentivize uh uh the VCS for example the community members might feel like it's it's unfair right why am I using your platform when you are giving free money to some someone somebody else right I'm not saying the vs are bad right like in a world where we do not have any money anymore to operate I think it makes sense for us to raise from the feces but if we have the luxury I think we should take the H path basically

we talked about uh Sana versus ethereum right you guys are building on Bas base is the best man base is the best I have to ask for a builder in the space b or Solana and why if you look at the tvl of base is around 30% of Soul M if you look at the Active addresses of Base it's around 20% of Soul the growth rate though is faster than soul okay so that's data that's information if you look at the number of tokens that are created on sold every day it's like a magnetude higher

than base so a lot more tokens are created on so right so if you are a project that launch token your competition on so is much higher because there's 10 times more competition that's Point number two so Supply is very intense M the the the there are a lot of good ERS on soul I know for example Chia from Lion is like a big fan of soul and I think to a certain extent soul is very much driven by chiao and the alliance Dow team because they're constantly thinking about how do I make trading easier

how do I make trading faster how do I make sure you gamble in the most easy way that's the philosophy of pump fun and and all the Sana ecosystem right which is again the real pmf of crypto yeah absolutely on the contrary what you're looking at Bas is that obviously you see Brian Armstrong and Jesse they talk about how base chain is the chain for AI so by having a statement out like this they actually attract a lot of AI Builders to base and that's actually to our advantage because we could convince them to actually

tokenize their work on on our virtuous ecosystem right and I also think the people on on base there are a lot of ethereum ogs so they are typically more patient so when I when they buy something they're okay to hold for a week which it sounds like it's very short but in crypto it's actually very long I mean in the sil it's like two 2 minutes you sell something else right so base people are more patient so they look at an agent coin to be like okay I think the team team is decent I'll give

them some time to build right a bit more patient so less rotational um so that's another point you also think about like um the fact that base doesn't have a native token is also a two-hour advantage because all the agent coins today are paired with virtual tokens so I believe that that allow us to sort of acrude the value of L1 without building an L1 and base is totally fine with that because they don't have token right they they they are cool if I build on soul and my native token if my base PA is

virtual the so people would be happy right so these are some of the reasons happy to hear us people could actually just say I'm going to try to play the me coin game but on the virtual platform right so the AI agent but to get more Soul so their goal basically they will not they will not get more virtuals they would get more soul and it's less good for your protocol yes for sure for sure yeah yeah I talked that uh I had like Jesse poak when I was in August on the podcast and really

maybe couple I don't remember two two months ago something like that so and U you saw it how was the interview like do you become a b or I was amazing this guy is's so inspiring yeah like he's leing and breathing the for me it was rare to see a Founder who is so inspiring yeah like he's like it's amazing yeah also went very deep into like him smoking weeds to to find solutions to his problems and all that stuff we spend the first 10 minutes talking about um couple therapy with his wife but then

the coin Bas team has to get that actually all the best part I always been cut by all these teams because like they were like oh now he's an exec member of you know coinbase like actually the weed part I was like they might cut it out because it's it's legal in California but many other states in the US is not right yeah but they they kept it so I was like okay great at least we keep some two stuff anyway I thought it was a incredible he's a very long-term thinker and he he build

the he think the hot things to he do the H things he doesn't give a [ __ ] about all the things that most people think about care about in crypto which is short-term all the short-term [ __ ] doesn't give a [ __ ] it's like he's a real Builder exactly and um that's that's the base culture that's the base culture yeah and and he's he's giving you an energy when you talk to him it's incredible yeah like and I've been in front like we're going to release this week podcast number 100 and I

probably have another 10 or 15 already recorded I don't remember so I've been in front of a few people right but the energy this dude like is spreading is incredible like I was like [ __ ] man I feel like high on life after this um yeah he's like a religion and he's like he's like a true true true yeah entrepreneur here for the next 20 years right and he doesn't give a [ __ ] about the next 20 seconds or 20 hours or or even 20 days right how much uh support did you get

from BAS but do you get from Bay a lot I mean like we we've been building on Bay since January when it wasn't a popular choice uh back then you had linear mental optimism arbitrum all the l2s right B wasn't the obvious one but we thought it's a good bet yeah since then I mean we are in different group chats uh we have the coinbase wallet team we have the G sort of Business Development ecosystem team uh we typically get connected to a lot of people who build on base m um so there's the AI

team that bu on base so we talk to them there's also like the defi so Aerodrome or the dexus alien base we talk to them so it's actually a very tight community community on base um it's funny because we we we all the agents use coinbase wallets so we are trying to test the limit of base chain uh and so again the team is like super responsive they're trying to Sol and so it's fantastic yeah you're helping them test uh their own products right I mean the limits of their own products let's be honest here

we are both startups I mean base is much bigger obviously but we are both quite new and so yeah just trying to yeah what does sentience mean because if we talk about if we talk about a agent we have to talk about sentient agents right yeah it's kind of like the next logical iteration yeah I I don't have a really good definition to it but my my gut is that I I would I would regard a being a sentient if that being starts challenging the the stuff that they are doing today like you're asking yourself

why why am I doing a podcast now you know what I mean like like why you know and the moment an agent or a senent being start doing that it becomes much harder for the human to control um and that's where things become very interesting yeah interesting good interesting bad and depends I mean as a as a Buddhist you you believe that the everything is empty like there's no right or wrong right I mean it could be bad for human but it's good for the agents that they now they are they're truly free you know

they don't have to listen to human anymore how far are we from truly sentient AI agents I don't know but uh maybe a few years yeah yeah we have a few years to make money I I don't think I'm not sure even if you make money like they could just break your Cod wallet and ref back from cash yeah I guess so I mean like it's not that had to deep uh yeah just just learn to leave yeah without money and just uh you should learn to hunt I think you should learn to hunt rather

than trying to make money you should try to learn how to hunt in the jungle to survive without internet access that's where agents cannot find you uh that's where you survive so this is your weekend Hobbies that's what you this weekend not yet not yet but yeah yeah what does the future look like uh in the AI agent space in five years which is are very far from now I think you will start measuring um how much money they make how much impact they have in the real Society so it's no longer a hobby it's

it's almost like each agent to your point it's like a company that they have their own balance sheet their own cash flow statement their own performance of how people adopting their services um and hopefully then they are tokenized so that other agents or other humans or any entity could invest in them for being profitable I think that's how we should think about it which is they are they're no longer a hobby they actually a an important part of the society yeah what's something you believe in that most people would not agree with uh I'm not

sure if people believe in that or not but I I I still think that happiness does not come from absolute estate but it's always so relative like you are happy today because it's it's better than yesterday rather than because you hit certain net worth of number or or or whatever so then in order to stay contented or happy it's either you don't give a [ __ ] about everything so there's no change in your mind state every day so you're peace or or you try to suppress the vola of your life volatility of your life

as much as possible right and the or you improve forever it's tough because either or but it's possible to improve forever it's it's tough to improve forever uh it's possible to improve Forever on on the variables that you can control so for example if I want to like be stuff that I can control right like if things I can't control you can't improve forever right to realize that things that you cannot control and you stop giving a [ __ ] about and focus on stuff you control yeah that's that's one that's one way was the

moment you realized that uh that right making a lot of money doesn't really impact my happiness like what's it's it's less on the money I mean it's it's it's I mean I I I I just read books I just read books and it's just say yeah it's very logical it's very logical uh and yeah yeah what's your biggest prediction for the next 12 months inspiration prediction prediction my prediction in the next 12 months is that you will see many projects that start focusing on um products that people want to use um and I think again

coming back to hyper liquid right it's so good because it's basically the market telling you that they are willing to buy stuff based on the usage and the product rather than because you have a VCS you have good credentials or whatever like because of that you could inspire a lot more Founders to pursue that path because they know for a fact that the Capital Market appre appreciate that because for many years the Capital Market always just give money to infrastructures or whatever that no nobody use right and that's very disheartening to Founders right so I

think that's a very good start I hope virtues also can set a good example for for other Founders and uh and you will see more good Founders build products that people want to use um and then you will see on coin Geo or coin market cap you will see coins that you recognize the names because you actually use them rather than some dinosaur coins right yeah yeah but as Jeff was saying on the podcast it's much harder right he was saying like it's hard to get to build something that people actually use it's just much

harder and to raising money from VCS compared to like the other thing you was talking about is like the product for market for crypto now is launching scam tokens right where people can just make money and kind of like I mean mcoin is kind of like one of the extreme part like end of that yeah but it's much harder to build something that people actually use and um and he say he says because most Founders Su right no but I mean that's the it's again very disheartening as a Founder if everyone buys meme coins because

no no one no one appreciate what I do right but but he Jeff argument on that is because you're not good enough like you're building something that no one uses like if you were building something that people use they would be interested yeah into right and it's and they kind of proved I mean they proved it yeah exactly literally they proved it exactly right so and now now all the really good Founders will look at it be like hey man I why am I am I why am I building repb two or whatever when I

can be like Jeff right and now you get the really good Founders and the good Builders to come on so I I I hope that start a new wave [Music] um yeah I still hold a view that I mean plowing too much money on mem coin doesn't help the industry like it's fun but yeah yeah on the alpha because we talk too much about hyper liquid where do you think this thing is going which one hyper liquid I mean you're a big token holder right you're big believer I think most Founders they're like really inspired

is like a binance kind of type of business like there's two parts here right one is the product one is the token um I think the product I don't trade PBS but I speak to a lot of PB Traders ERS and they they think the experience is almost the same uh without a kyc component so that's good um from token point of view it's also at a very good state of flow which is there's no seller right anyone who got the tokens got in a very fair manner no one is up like a,x and and

so less sellers but like potentially more buyers I mean there a lot of people who still don't understand this right so from flow point of view it's decent from product point of view um I mean past performance is the best prediction of the future right so if Jeff has built such a great thing in the past two years you would better believe that he can build really good stuff in the next two years too right so sh product will get great there's no price prediction I just think they will be top performer for for for

the for the cycle yeah yeah and the yeah all the biggest brains think the same right yeah all the autistic people which is a small part of all the people involing bpto so yeah good you're going to go back home and buy more me I'm waiting for deeps the deeps are not coming it's not coming amazing thank you so much yeah Wii for doing this and for helping me and the audience to immerse ourselves in the fascinating world of AI agents which are probably going to disrupt the way we work and the way we live

and we love Yeah and we love beautiful yeah cringe but yeah thank you man thanks bro very good thanks thanks