Simon Cowell Opens Up About His Heartbreaking Loss & His Regrets About One Direction!

it was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life thinking what have I got to live for and um oh gosh have to give me a minute please welcome Simon cow the scale of his success is staggering who's changed the landscape of television and music it's absolutely Dreadful as a kid you're quite naive aren't you seriously naive trying to take on the world with music publishing company which fails in the car park and then you go from there to I'm going to start my own record label in 24 I met Sanita in this

club and I thought I'm going to make a record with that I don't know how a record's made I can't read music but let's just do it the first time it flopped second time it flopped even when I had the hit I owed the bank £500,000 and I'm broke but I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe do you remember this single their album hits number number one yeah but this was a real Bittersweet time because I get a phone call which starts with you sitting down and I was on a dam

with spiral from that period became a ridiculous workaholic working till 7:00 in the morning suffering from depression and the truth is I still suffer from depression at times what about One Direction the one thing I regret about One Direction is so boys if you're listening we've just hit 6 million subscribers on the dire of Co um so me and my team would like to do something we've never done before as little thank you and we're calling it The dire ofo subscriber raffle and here is how it works every episode this month we're going to pick

three current subscribers at random and we'll send one of you a 1,000 voucher one of you tickets to come and watch the dver SE behind the scenes live with our team and one of you will have a 10-minute phone call with me to discuss whatever you want to talk about if you're a subscriber you're in the raffle thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to do something that me and my team love doing so much it is the greatest honor of my lifetime and I hope it I hope it continues uh

off into the Future Let's get to the [Music] episode Simon in order to understand the man that sits with me today what is the early context that I must know about that will help me to understand the Simon cow that all of us know so well what is that early context the the oven that you were you were cooked in well I had a happy childhood I was always bored though uh really bored at school I always wanted to have a life where I would be interested and have have fun when I was told the

school days are the best days of your life I'm thinking oh my God this is terrible because I hate school so uh I was really determined to do something where I would be actually just having fun that's what I kept thinking to myself and I want to start making my own money um and and one thing my parents did do when we were very very young because in those days you could actually even at the age of about seven or eight you know in our neighborhood is go around to people's houses knock on their door

and say can I can I wash your car can I mow the lawn uh because my mom and dad said um if we pay for the holiday you've got to earn your spending money so I'm like fine so but I used to love it um if you got 10 quid for like washing a car I mean it was like Bingo it was the best feeling so you mentioned your mother there can you tell me about the influence that your mother and your father Julie and Eric MH how on you when I lost them um particularly

when I lost my mom because then it was kind of final it was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life I mean it was a very it was as bad as things could possibly be um and we just had the most amazing relationship um uh my mom was the disciplinarian I remember I must have been about four years old maybe even younger and and I remember where I was I was sitting in the car and she said something to me and she said manners maketh the man and I like what does that

mean she go manners maketh the mat and then she explained what that meant and it's always stuck in my head because it's such an oldfashioned way of saying be polite both my parents were very kind of uh old school um they were very respectful to everyone I always remember that and I looked up to both of them and I always knew at any time I could go to them uh when I needed advice um and they would always give me the right steer and they were always there for me your work ethic is renowned yeah

I've spoken to a lot of people in your team currently um and one of the things they always described as through much of what got you to where you are today is an insane work ethic and when I say insane I mean insane with every sense of the word where does that come from because you know you said your childhood was happy and typically when someone has a pretty insane work ethic you there's some kind of trauma at somewhere you know but for you I couldn't quite identify what that was it probably comes from um

my dad uh worked for a large corporation um and before he retired he said to me don't work for a large company because when you're you know 65 or whatever they're going to retire you and you'll never hear from them again and that is exactly what happened to my dad and it was heartbreaking because he did work hard he was a very loyal person you know to the company he worked for when he passed away you know he didn't have any money that's probably what may me realize a I don't want to be in that

position and secondly the only way I can achieve that is by working for myself and I always had this crazy vision of if I work for a company and I don't get on well with the boss he's going to probably invite me to his house and talk about golf I just always had this in my head thinking I couldn't think of anything worse than having to suck up to a boss who doesn't like me and the reason I kept thinking my boss would never like me is because I was so bad at school and my

teachers were quite strict with me so I thought work was probably going to be the same um so uh that's what drove me and you know my dad also you know he knew you know because I I I didn't do very well with my exam results and he did say to me it's quite clear some you're not going to make University um have you made up your mind what you want to do and I said this I want to do something I think in entertainment I'm not sure what and he said look whatever you do

you're going to have to be patient because it's not going to happen overnight you if you want to do well you've got to learn to be good at it and it could take 20 years it could take 30 years but understand that and I'm like I'm fine with that and I really was fine with that your dad seems like a man that gave a lot of actual advice a lot of advice that frankly I read your book as well that you can still remember to this day because my parents taught me things but vicariously by

watching them I can't think of a single sentence that my my parents said to me that was advice but you've got so much advice that you recite from your father which I think is pretty remarkable well yeah he I mean one of the um the things that always stuck in my mind and it was quite an odd thing to say to a 12-year-old he said everyone in life Simon has a sign on their head and it says make me feel important and I want you to think about that I'm thinking s on there well I

have no idea what that means why' you say that maybe he had a couple of drinks um and then I forget when I realized what it meant but boy did that stick in my mind which was if you want to do one in life it's going to be a team effort and make make sure you recognize every single person on that team and so if I walk into a room um I instantly um I think pretty much from the point I understood it is that I can walk into a room and I can see I

see everything in one in in one moment I see the person who's opening the door I see the person who's doing a particular job so in other words I see the room always as a team and you did that the minute you walked into this room because there was what 10 people here from the person that opened the door the person that got the coffee the people you know taking care of the cameras and you and this is rare and obviously I've done 300 of these conversations you went around to every single person in this

room and took an interest in every single person which is it's not typical especially when you're dealing with people that are have a have a big sort of public profile we've had people walk in it completely ignore me for 10 minutes sit down and text and take phone calls uh I unfortunately I've seen a lot of that as well yeah uh and I see an awful lot of H hypocrisy which are people yes who who on the outside you know they they show one side of it I then always see that person when they're off

camera and who they really are and um and they are the opposite they will just like you said completely ignore everybody um the worst thing is and I had this as I as I was you know trying to get my career started there's nothing worse than when you're talking to somebody and as as they're talking to you they're they're looking for someone more important than you I I remember feeling that you know uh at an early age in my career and how that felt and it was very demeaning and I suppose you know those two

uh stories about my mom and dad they were really really really important things and they must have known that I that that would uh mean something for me later on in life and I've said the same thing uh to my son Eric you know I remember the first time I said to him Eric maners make of the man he was about two he's like look at me and he repeated it back completely right that's going say it again and then eventually I think he must have been about four and he was very polite to someone

and like and I said I'm very proud of you Eric he went maners makeer the man Daddy and I'm like you've got it maybe you need a little bit of patience trying to indoctrinate the two-year-old but you turn you turn to your father and you express that you'll pursue entertainment and music at sort of 12 how old were you when you first said that to your father I probably I was yeah I would have been about 12ish um there was nothing I excelled in at school at all you were surrounded by music people and entertainment

people where you lived I think your dad at one point worked at Emi yeah he he he worked for their real estate division is is that where music because I'm trying to figure out where music came from I've got this kid that's naughty not paying attention in school I read the stories about you holding up a bus with a spud gun should have said that you were drinking but they called the police because you were holding up a bu gun and I'm thinking where is music come into it because it doesn't appear that you were

playing a huge amount of musical well I I loved buying records um so just you know going into a record shop um and saving up enough money for you you know to buy a single or an album was just everything so most of my spending money would go on on records I I can vividly remember going into my bedroom with a brand new album and just loving listening to every single track on it it was such an exciting feeling so when you leave school and you go off and try and find your own career you

worked a few jobs you were a trainee at Tesco I think at one point well uh my dad uh he said uh okay uh you failed all your exams uh twice uh so you're going to have to get a job assignment um uh and since you're not qualified uh what about tesos I don't know where that came from I'm like doing what and he said Bo you know you could uh end up maybe managing a store or something and I'm like okay so I turned up at this interview and I remember I wore jeans and

before I even sat down the guy said uh how dare you um how dare you come in here wearing jeans and I'm like I'm sorry he said well how dare you and I was so annoyed I said you know what I'm really glad I came here because I never want to work for you or your company and by the way your office looks like out so that didn't go that well my mom uh made an application for me to work for the Civil Service um so I was interviewed to be I think like a law

Clerk or something um and that and it actually had a chart which told you exactly how much money you would make at the age of 64 and I'm like that's not going to happen then my dad thought I should be in the building trade and I was going to have to work at this sort of building site whatever it was for two years to learn everything and I thought no um and then eventually I got a job uh as a runner and at um elry Studios and the second I got that job it was like

brilliant uh I was so happy and and it and it was hard work why why was that job that you described it I think as a sliding doors moment in your life why was that job why was that your up to your heart i' kind of worked out that how to become a director you know you have to become a third assistant second assistant first Assistant two years in editing sweets blah blah blah H and I was I was up for that I thought this is something I I think I would love unfortunately the contract

I had only lasted for two months and the executive producer uh was so mean uh that he said after two months well that's it we don't need you anymore but the Pas like me so much they paid for my salary so but he was so awful this guy every time he would come into the building I used to have to hide under their desks and he caught me one day and he said what are you still doing here and I said well nothing he said well who's paying you and I said nobody and he said

were you're not allowed to be here and he threw me out and then I nearly got a job on actually I was offered a job as a runner on The Shining they were just making that I saw the hotel being built on the lot when I was a runner um my mom at the same time had made an application for me to work in the post room at Emi music publishing you how old at this point I was 17 point yeah so I had this choice of I could become a runner uh uh at a

big Film Studio on what looked like a great movie MH or I could go in the post room at in my music publishing and something made me go and I tell you what it was I passed the studio where I was going to work as a runner one particular day and there was a queue of people just outside the building and I went up to someone I said you know what's everyone queuing for and they went work I said what do you mean they said well um no one here is on contract and uh when

a new production you know uh happens uh it's pretty much first come first served and I'm thinking God this doesn't sound very reliable um I don't like the idea of that so I think I'll take my chances and I'll work in the music publishing post room in the when you say the post room yeah do you mean where the post is sent yeah yeah literally so it was it wasn't a very nice building um uh and our it was almost like being in a garage where we were it was definitely a basement um uh the

there were two guys who used to work I think one of them was called Harry or something they were probably in their mid to late 60s and I turn up all cocky you know right I've got a job in the post room and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and they were like just make us a cup of tea son and blah blah blah but it it was good be uh because uh I did get a chance to understand what everybody did in in in the company and I I think

I was making1 18s a week at that point and as the months wore on because I thought someone's going to realize I'm really talented and offer me a great job and I literally would walk into everyone's offices pretty much every day and say can can I have a job a better job and there's nothing going I I literally even the managing director I just walked in one day and I said I'm Simon blah can I have a job because I'm really passionate and he just threw me out of his office um were you asking questions

about the industry to those people in those offices always yeah every time every time there were a few people who were really really kind to me and they explained what they did they they explained to me how music publishing worked what they do for the writers the cataloges everything so I started to get an understanding of how the music business worked I also glimpsed some of the checks that were coming in being in the mail room uh and my jaw dropped um seeing how much Kate Bush for instance earned it was like Daddy hell if

you do one of this business there's a lot of money I had no idea there's something about that in terms of like career advice because I really heard that you were even though you in the post room you peppering people with lots of questions yeah now there's a lot of you know there's a lot of people working a lot of jobs right now who might not have understood the importance of being curious even if you're at the very start of your career or the bottom of the proverbial ladder yeah but that seemed to be really

pivotal because there's lot people that would work in a post room and know nothing else but the but the post room yeah but you you were annoying people I was actually maybe in a kind of a charmingly annoying way um I was always you know very polite I was very on time I would always say here's your um uh mail sir ma'am is there anything else I can do for you and while I'm here blah blah blah blah blah uh and so I was sort of like the company pet however it did start to goul

on me after a while about how little money I was making and my brother making a lot of money now being uh an EST state agent and I and and I wasn't offered a job out of the mail room I thought it was going to happen after about a year after 18 months nothing and so I'm I said right nothing's happening here I'm going to become an estate agent and my dad because he did have connections with property he got me to work for a company called hilia Parker May and rden now even by the

name you can just tell the kind of people people who were I mean they were just awful awful people really snobby uh really mean really rude and after a month uh my mom uh said to me you're really unhappy aren't you and I said yes I'm really unhappy I hate this um and then my dad uh knew the guy who ran in my music publishing now this is where I was in the post room and I don't really think he connected me with my dad because my dad actually said to him I can't believe after

18 months you didn't you know give Simon at least a little promotion he went I didn't realize that was your son or so he claims I I'll never know um anyway the next thing is an opening suddenly arrives and and my mom I remember her face she said I've got some really exciting news for you and I said what she said I think uh there's a better job for you at Emi music publishing and you got to have an interview and it was working in the international Department of Emi music publishing which basically means that

uh writers that were signed say in America Germany whatever this department administered their copyrights right um and the job that became available was a song plugger which meant um all of the hundreds of thousands or if not millions of songs they published my job was to get other people to cover those songs so they could generate more money oh okay um and to do that uh it was quite a difficult job because it was the country music division now at that point country was not very popular in the UK and a lot of these songs

are unknown and what made it really difficult was is that this job was actually promised to somebody else in the company um and obviously it got out that I got the job because my dad helped me get the job forgetting the fact I already worked there for 18 months it just looked like I was given even though it paid I think 30 quid a week or something it wasn't like a high paay job and uh no one would talk to me for the first 6 months so I'm like terrible so I locked myself into this

room and I just thought no one's talking to me I'm just going to listen to every one of these terrible country songs uh and I listened to literally thousands and thousands of songs over six months compiled a list and then just went out to all the record l met up with all as many anr people as I could and said I think I've got a great song here and it will be perfect for one of your artists and I did get a lot of the songs covered are you were eight what 17 18 years old

I was about probably about 189 at that point um and then uh my boss uh said I think you're really bright Simon um why don't we start a company together uh and I was like it's a bit early isn't it I'm like 19 and he said uh I I've been here for 16 years uh you're never going to uh make much money um let's just do it uh I've actually found found someone to back us so I met these people they owned a recording studio I had a really really bad feeling and I said I

I just I don't think I can do this it's too early I don't I don't even know what I'm doing at the moment let alone run run my own company and he said well I think you better go and meet these people and tell them that the answer is no and it was he did it you know he knew what was going to happen because I went and they persuaded me and I and I I know I knew I'd made a mistake so we started this company we had about £40,000 uh seed money uh our

offices were in an NCP car park uh I think it actually used to be a Lou our office it was just so bad um and I'm like oh god what have I done I just got this job with Emi and now I'm working in a l in a car park and this is not going to work um and after about 18 months I just left your own company was it ens enss yeah Ellis and Simon right yeah but then I met somebody who was a manager who managed hot gossip um and he had a really

cool office in South Molton Street and I and I just really liked him he was really funny and I said um can I work for you and he went do you what I said I want to start a record label and he went seriously and I said well you got this great management company um I think I I know how to make records um let's just do it and he went uh I'll pay you40 a week and we agreed on 55 and I'm like brilliant and I don't know I just suddenly from feeling really this

isn't working to I've really got a feeling this is going to work you were quite naive weren't you oh yeah I mean seriously naive yeah because it's like a kid is like trying to Take On the World with like a his own music publishing company which fails in the car park L and then he goes from there to I'm going to start my own record label at what 20 26 25 years old so you start this record label is that Fan Fair records yeah um so uh I met Sanita in this club the embassy Club

which was a brilliant nightclub um I liked her she liked me and uh I said oh I run my own record label nice and I thought it's a great pickup like and she said oh I'm an artist I really I said um have you made any demos and she said yeah so I said well can can we meet again and uh and we did meet again and she did play me some demos and I said actually You' got a really really good recording voice um and at the time uh there was this particular kind of

uh sound uh dance music which is really becoming popular and it was all originating from I think um uh the French part of Canada uh where a lot of these records were originally made they were all breaking out of gay clubs across the ukuk um and I just had this idea for Sita which was she was so beautiful so much fun and I thought I know what I'm going to do I'm going to make a record with her and I'm going to break it through uh through the clubs across the UK um and I I

just had this crazy idea in my head for a title and I said to this uh guy I met he hadn't had a hit before um uh this is Sanita blah blah blah blah blah uh I want a record this is how I think I'm going to break it I want it to be called so match up and he that looked to me like right so we made two records one was called so Macho the other one was called God youve got it is the other side cruising this is the record that's it my God

that's a great leave by the way it's it's fantastic yeah that's right so much and cruising the problem was is the guy I was working with um says to me um I'm expanding into book publishing I'm like okay fine um so he didn't really take any notice of what I was doing and then he said to me um I've been uh a public company uh you know basically wants to buy my business blah blah blah blah blah great I'm shutting down the record label I'm like are you kidding I've just I've just made this record

I think it's going to be a hit and he went no I'm shutting it down and I said what does that mean for me he said well you're out of a job and I said look you I know you've made a lot of money you're probably going to make a ton more do me a favor would you just give me £5,000 I don't want a salary but with that money I will make the video I'll get it distributed blah blah blah recorded video everything and he went let me think about it and I kept calling

him over the weekend and eventually said okay fine 5,000 and that's it so I thought okay that I think should be enough um and that was you know I suppose one of the biggest turning points in my life if he had said no at that point I'm not sure what I would have done what would you have done um I would have hustled it from somewhere um because I really did believe in this the minute I heard the record from I just thought this is going to be a hit how'd you know I just felt

it you know I I had a good I the the funny thing is when I first when I actually made my first record the uh the producer said do you want to come down to the studio and I said no and he said why I said because I don't want to know how a record is made he said why he said I said because I want to listen to it as anybody who buys records if I know how are records made it's going to sound different to me so to this day I don't know how

a record is actually made I don't know how it started does someone play a baseline or keyboard I mean I literally haven't got a clue strange uh because I know it would be an it's like when people do magic on on my shows I'm not the person who goes I know how you did that I go I believe in magic and I will literally make myself believe in magic um and with music it was sort of the same thing which is I don't want to know too much I just I don't want to pretend that

I can read music because I can't I don't want to make uh make myself believe that I can be a producer cuz I probably could couldn't be a very good producer but I think I could be a very good anr person which is find an artist find them the right song and then you know break the record and it took me about a year and a half to break that record um it was tough I just want to pause on that what you said there about not knowing anything about music or how a record is

made what I what I heard there I guess in between the lines is you want to remain The Listener and not the Creator because you think it's more valuable to maintain the perspective of the consumer completely 100% that I mean you've hit the nail on the head this is exactly that and also I didn't want to ever you know because I'd met some successful producers you know over the years you know and I I I had this of because I heard stories ofr people who went into Studios pretending they understood how to make a record

and hadn't got a clue in fact one guy actually had literally a piece of metal uh like a train track or something literally a piece of iron and he had it on his Studio wall and he called it the wack ometer because all these idiot anr guys used to come come in yeah I don't really like the mix of the record and he go yeah I know exactly what you mean let me just adjust this and so he would just pull the lever down and the guys would go night and day and I couldn't think

of anything more embarrassing so I've always been the first to say I don't know how our records made I can't read music um haven't really got a clue but I think I do have a good ear for a hit or a potential hit there's something really transferable to marketing I've obviously spent the last 10 years working in marketing and one of the the most passionate things I've said on stage a gazillion times to my teams is trying to get us out of the perspective of the Creator and into the perspective of the person that's going

to see it out in the world and I have to say it is like an impossible task yeah it sounds so simple and what you're describing is is what I've fought so hard to try and con con convey to people well I think you can do do that if if you believe it yourself and and I did have this strong belief in myself that finally I'd found something I could do which was um make a record you know make a terrible video um and uh I mean I because obviously we used to have to physically

manufacture the records so I didn't have have a lot of credit so I had to do a lot of deals you know with these people look I'll pay you if you'll make me 10 I think 10,000 was the minimum or something I mean the whole thing what I had to go through to get this record into the charts and it was all about getting it into the top 40 and it took me three times first time it flopped second time it flopped and then what I did uh was I I said to the uh uh

Warehouse I said what is the problem they said well the record's selling but it's not it keeps selling the Simon but um it's not enough to get to get it into the 40 so I said well why don't we hold the order and they said well we're not really supposed to do that what does that mean uh in other words just say it's out of stock um on the computer but it's not out of stock just don't let them have the record when they order it in other words let's build up the back orders so

we built up whatever the back order was and then all the people who' ordered a record three months ago four months ago suddenly all these records arrived that week and it worked it got the record into the top 40 it squeezed in and I got a breaker on top of the pops and the record just exploded after that because of circumstances heavily outside of your control Fan Fair records collapses um owing the bank $500,000 and you're left with about5 in your pocket and you move back in with your parents at 30 years old my age

well it wasn't the label that owed the money it was me um uh because all of us were encouraged to buy shares in this company uh because we were told the company was doing really really well so the bank manager was practically forcing me to borrow money you know because he said the shares are going to go up in value um and at the same time um I thought everything was just going to be wonderful so I bought a house um I bought a Porsche of course uh uh I had a gold credit card which

no one explained to me how that works in terms of the interest rates um so I'm living it up um and when it all came crashing down uh yeah I owed the bank nearly 500,000 um so I had to go in and see the bank and they had the nice guy and they had the not so nice guy and the Not So Nice Guy was okay where's the money right well you lent it to me you know where it's just gone and the other guy was like yeah well you know it was partly our fault

and blah blah blah blah blah so I said look all I can tell you is uh if you bankrupt me I don't care uh because I don't have anything um uh I don't have a job uh I don't have any income I've just got this debt what about the push what about the push it all went the whole lot even when I sold the house I still owed money on the mortgage so I I I was I was on paper bankrupt yes so I moved back in with my mom and dad and that was really

told me what great people they were because there wasn't one moment where either of them said you know you failed or this or that it was like it's a life lesson Simon and you'll get over it um and I managed to find a bank amazingly to lend me because I basically I negotiated the debt down we worked out what the interest was over the period of time what the capital sum was and then I got into half that and I said somehow I'll pay it back to you so I found another bank who just backed

me I just sold myself and I said look you know I my first record I ever made went to number two whatever it was in the chart sold a million copies this is what my career is going to be uh what happened was was out of my control and he said I don't know I've got a feeling about you um I'm prepared to lend you some money to pay back the other bank which meant I didn't become bankrupt so I went uh back to live with my mom and dad and it was actually quite an

interesting time because I I remember and I've told the story a lot is that I had to get from a particular destination in the West End to where my parents lived and I had about5 cash and I remember thinking it's literally all the money I've got left in in the world and I'm not sure what the five quid is going to cover the taxi ride home and I think we I know we just about made it and I said I'm sorry about the tip because I haven't got any more money um it was about 10

P or something uh fortunately had a very very good lawyer guy called Tony Russell um and I said to Tony um look I'm in not in a great place I'd met him actually because he represented George Michael and he sued me uh uh when I'd made a mega mix of which we used to do we used to literally get in session singers and say Kylie Mano just record eight Kylie Mano records with someone who sounded like Kylie Mano mixed them so weed to call them Mega mixes and they would they'd sell about 10 20,000 copies

we used to export them all over the world I did a Wham one we got sued by George Michael that's how I met my lawyer because he was repres representing George and I said I'd rather you represent me next time and he was brilliant because he said look I think Simon weirdly what's happened to you is the best thing that's ever happened and I said why I said I'm broke I don't have a job he said he said but you succeeded so far Simon with everything you you put out because I had had you know

success with some other records along the way um he said I think you should get a label deal which means that you own uh part of the company with a major label um so I'm like okay uh if you can get me if you can get me one brilliant and we went to meet two companies in on the same day uh BMG and Universal and literally uh that day uh at the end of the day Tony calls me he I've had two calls I mean go on universal has said no I'm like BMG has said

yes I'm like seriously there's a caveat got one year and within that one year you got to sell x amount of records and I'm like I'll do it and I did and that was kind of how I got myself back up and running again by the way the other thing I should mention is I said to Tony um by the way um I don't have any money to pay you um the lawyer the lawyer I said so you know I I'm not sure I can afford you and he said well I I Believe In You

Simon I think one day you will end up repaying me and I'll always remember that uh and uh years later of course you know we did a lot of deals together and of course I repaid him but I mean the fact that he was there for me at that moment I mean that was again a lifechanging moment for me there's these people throughout your story that seem to be so critical um mentors people that were there to catch you when you fell and treated you in a pleasant way one of those as well was Peter

Waterman you described meeting the day I met Peter Waterman was easily the most important day of my career you said that in your book I don't mean to be rude but ah well it was because um I I I I realized very very quickly um that it was unlikely I would was going to be able to sign or find singer songwriters so I was going to have to find artists who needed songs written for them um so I needed to find the best pop writers um you know literally in the world I heard this record

on the radio and I just thought wow whoever this is this record is brilliantly made um and I found out it was produced by stock Akon and Waterman no one had heard of them at this point so I call up here and I said hi my name is s car blah blah blah and I can I meet you and he went yeah so I went down to his Studios and we met we were sitting on these literally wooden boxes the studio was like a real mess and I said I've got this um uh record uh

I'm about to put out I he put on so Macho took it off that's said hit I went yeah I know will you produce her followup and he went no I said would he be no I thought I thought I was doing him a favor and he went um I'm too busy and I said doing what and literally the place was falling apart and he gave me this awful wink he went you'll see and then the next 3 to six months the whole stock aen and Morman explosion just happened cuz obviously Pete had been make

making other records in the meantime which no one had heard and out nowhere it all of his records were just hits so I thought okay I've got to persuade him to write sita's followup right so I just uh used to turn up at his Studio literally every single day and uh make tea um sit in the studios blah blah blah and they were so busy they didn't really notice me and after about a year and a half Pete was in the studio and he turns he go why are you always here and I said well

I'm trying to work out how you do it and he went I'm not paying you I said I I don't want to get paid I just I want you to one day write her followup and uh a few months after that I was in my office I get a phone call I've got you hit mate and I got cab went down to his studio and he played me the demo of Toy Boy and I thought that's going to be a gigantic record for her internationally as well I could feel it um and Pete you know

made it everything because Pete again I mean Pete will pretend unlike me he'll oh of course I know how to produce records blah blah blah he may do but Pete's skill is I've always described Pete as as the best DJ in the world he would he could go to any city in England at one in the morning and he would know instinctively what records to play to the audience that were in that venue and he made everything simple which is you find a great artist and you you match them with a great pop record and

that was it when you got that job at BMG one of the things that I read was that you were really focused on television which was unusual television as an outlet for the music and as a distribution platform to make the music successful which is unusual at that time to think about television why did you think about television and why were you pushing that upon your bosses at BMG I took the view it didn't matter to me uh what the record was as long as it sold a lot of Records so uh I it just

occurred to me one day I forget what it was it might have been I think it was the Wrestling Federation or something um someone told me they'd sold out uh Wembley Stadium you know the the American wrestlers in WWF yeah yeah in um 880,000 seats in like 27 minutes and I'm like what and so I learned a bit more about them you know they're selling everything and I'm thinking actually their fans are so crazy about them they'll buy a they'll buy an album so I met with them and I said have you ever considered doing

this and they went no and I said well I'll uh pay you X as an advance I phoned up Pete Waterman I how do you fancy Mak an album full of wrestles I'll do it okay instantly he just got it and um we we got all we flew all these wrestlers over from America they all turned up as their characters it was hysterical The Undertaker Hulk Hogan you name it they were all there and uh uh my boss at the time was so desperate for me not to do this she actually got down on her

knees seriously and was praying said look Simon I am begging you not to do this because it's going to be such a catastrophic failure and I'm like what I'm doing it I just don't see don't understand why you don't get it um have you felt like that a lot in your career where you feel like you can see something others can't because you're thinking more from first principles there you're thinking they sold out an arena they have an avid fan base we can attach music to an avid fan base equals hit yeah you've summed it

up very eloquently and that is exactly it however and you know this what is very straightforward to us is not straightforward to other people they thing thinking you he's gone completely mad I mean no but I'm thinking yeah but you're not a seven-year-old boy you know this is who's going to buy the record you know this is somebody who's going to buy board game or blah or you know uh seral with the wrestlers on it whatever you know I did it with the Power Rangers Zig and zag I didn't care as long as it sold

records um which for this one that's it it's brilliant oh my God we had so much fun doing this we really really really did [Music] um uh and you know what was interesting is actually when I made the video I I kind of turned myself into a kid again because I you sort of have to believe it for it to work you know because I I treated it as if this was a serious record the record had to be a great record doesn't this go back to what you said earlier on about being able to

embody The Listener consumer yeah yeah because your boss at the record label there was saying no this is not how it's done this is not what we do here whereas you're thinking again from the mind of a seven-year-old or an eight-year-old and that's hard um yeah well I didn't think I I thought logically it made a lot of sense I used to sit in these A&R depart um meetings with really really serious anr people who would literally go bright red with anger when I would play them something like this you're making a mockery at this

label and the music business is like well who cares it's number one in the charts in 28 countries um I just didn't understand why people would take it so seriously and this so millions and millions copies you saw millions of copies for a wrestling album yeah using a passionate fan base as the and and and you know what it was fun it actually was a fun project um and when I worked um at BMG I got to know a lot of the people in who worked in the Tey sales department um and these were the

girls who would literally get uh uh orders from the record shops and I got to know all of them and they were really really fun people and uh but they they were like the back background you know but they were I used to call them the punters you know they completely got it and I always used to say if you hear anything just let me know you know if is there a demand for something I always just I just want to know what's going on every day and one particular day uh I said anything happening

this morning and they went yeah uh we're getting a lot of calls about um um something that was s sung on soldier soldier last night so anyway cut a long story short um I tracked down Robson and Jerome and I said hi I'm Simon Cal blah blah blah um I kind of got Jerome to say yes Robson just wasn't having it so I was like a stalker I would not let it go I got hold of his parents uh everyone his friends I mean to the point I think I got a legal letter saying can

you stop harassing my client and it's like well when he says yes I'll stop harassing him um and eventually he agreed to a meeting um and I'm so excited uh I'm in the cab going to the meeting and then I suddenly went Christ I don't know what he looks like cuz never watched the show um what do I do so and we were meeting in this wine bar or something so I just walk in and I'm like hi I'm Simon and then his hand shot up Robson I'm hi and we sit down I said here's

the deal I'll pay you both £50,000 each to go into the recording studio lay down your vocals and if you say no you keep 50 Grand each and he looked to me are you serious I me yeah so literally the following day they said right we'll do it thinking we're about to make 50 Grand each for a day's work and we're never going to put the record out so uh I get them in as quickly as possible and uh I get a phone call from Robson I want to see you so oh dear so I

walk in did laay down the vocals and I said' what the problem and he goes you are a complete seword and I went why he said because you knew exactly what was going to happen didn't you and I don't know what you're talking about he said yes you do he said Put it on and they played me the record and they both realized at that moment the record was going to be a hit record and I kind of forced them into doing it and they were happy and angry at the same time for two years

they were they were the biggest selling artists in the UK I mean they they outsold Oasis every bomb really it was absolutely I cannot tell you we had so we couldn't make enough records we sold so many records and this was this particular track was number one for I think seven or eight weeks or something yeah something at the time CRA number one I mean I think all their records went to number one it was actually quite incredible um and that was probably the thing that really cemented this thing about my my career which was

absolutely trust your gut um go completely in an unconventional way and and that more than anything else made me realize the power TV because also when I eventually did see the episode and I saw how it was cut and the story line and just how everything worked and why there was such a demand for that record it was wow that's that's a great lesson but Simon what about if your gut is wrong because you've worked with people that trust their gut and they're continually wrong that they just don't have it they just don't have it

right yeah whether they're musicians or they're an anrs you know um there'll be a lot of people listening now that are like okay Simon said trust my taste trust my gut just go for it and then in reality they you know it's it's a question of like self-awareness I guess which is which is difficult well I I can relate to what is happening to a lot of people in the music business right now which is the frustration they must feel which is I'm talented I've uploaded my music and I'm not getting anywhere what do I

do next and I I know what this that feeling is is and what I decided to do was why don't I go with a slightly different direction from everybody else I don't want to be part of the herd if I follow everyone else I'm just going to be a sheep and I don't want to be a sheep I'd rather be somebody slightly unusual but successful rather than safe cool whatever so I always say particularly today you've got to make noise a the noise and that means you know do your research you know if if you're

going to cover a song don't copy the original you know find a song that could have been written 12 months ago but actually was written 30 years ago uh and rearrange the song do something different with it you know there's so many things you can do um which are different to what other people are doing and because that really is about getting your the your first step step on the ladder which is prove that you can make some noise amongst everybody else um and I do know what that feeling of frustration felt like however it's

also about trusting your gut as well when you make noise amongst the noise there's a cost and you talked a little bit about the cost of that it's the skepticism it's the negativity it's the criticism it's the get back in line and a lot of people especially if they weren't rebellious kids that had a problem with authority and such can't can't deal with straying from the conventional path where other people have walked the blueprint how things have always been done you have to go through the Thorns through the bushes yeah yeah and it takes a

certain type of Rebel which one of which is that in front of me that is willing to go through the thorns in life yeah and don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that you know because you know when people people say it's not cool or whatever well who defines what is cool or what isn't cool you know this is just about you your career uh your passion um and if other people you know mock you for being different then it I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe

that would just B bore me I've been called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business but it just doesn't really matter you know the ever did it ever bother you um is it a muscle you've had to train do you know the only thing that bothered me was like I said when I first tried to get my record played on radio one and I saw the process and I thought this is an this this is something I can't change I cannot change a stuffy old producer's mind about liking a record he

knows nothing about so I have to find a way to force that person to play the record and the way I can do that is to get it into the charts so I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them to play the record on the top 40 countdown that's always what I had in my head um in other words if you really really believe in it and the conventional path isn't open to you then you've got to go right then how do we navigate a slightly different path um

that eventually gets us what we want let's not go the the obvious route and you know that I'm not going to lie every time I do anything new there's always part of the thrill is it may not work um and you know every time I I I film a series bgt AGT whatever I'm filming every year there is one day where i'm like it's over it's over I hate the ax I'm bored uh uh that's it and then the following day I'm like my God I love this show so much I mean I so up

and down like that because I I can't fake how I feel you know when when I'm bored when I'm miserable I it really shows I I and when I'm happy then you know I'm happy you guys may have heard our most recent news the launch of flight Studio which is our brand new podcast in media technology company as we scale this new company we also need to scale our team and my first Port of Call for hiring across flight Studio has been LinkedIn jobs who are a sponsor of this podcast we're hiring for around 30

to 60 roles right now and Linkedin has been me and my team's goto the platform makes the hiring process intuitive smooth and super efficient LinkedIn has helped me and my team Source professionals we can't get anywhere else even those who aren't actually searching for jobs right now but might be open into the perfect role with us in a given month over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job websites they visit LinkedIn so if you're not looking on LinkedIn you're looking in the wrong place so today I'm giving the D CEO Community a free

LinkedIn job post head to linkedin.com doac now and let me know how you get on terms and conditions apply I've got another single here that's a single but it's part of an album that do you remember this one oh yeah yeah Westlife so you're sort of I think 39 years old um and your band Westlife their album hits number one yeah and you know what this is uh uh my dad passed away uh right at this time as well so this was a real Bittersweet time for me because my dad he never knew this but

my dad was amazing at spotting hit records you know I would play him certain things I was making oh bless you AF Pho of him here yeah yeah he uh when I when I first started to have some success and my records went number one he he was so proud um and he again when I signed this band he said I think they were going to be huge for you Simon really yeah and but this was a really crazy story about where how we signed the band because uh Louie Walsh was always calling me uh

uh I've got the best band in the world I've got the best B and I okay Louie okay I'll come to Dublin I went to Dublin he showcases this band I I absolutely cannot bear them and I said this is never going to work they just don't look right Louie I don't think I I just the answ is no I think a couple of them are okay you're wrong I said okay fine I'm wrong but I'm not signing them and then three months later he calls me and he goes um I've taking your advice uh

will you fly back I'm like okay so I fly back uh they start the showcase for me within 30 seconds I said I'm in du uh you'll hear from my lawyer do you want to hear anymore nope I I can see it they sound great they look great blah blah blah we signed them and then a month later it turns out that he has died one of the guy's hair blonde to sneak back into the band uh and that's Shane because when when we uh auditioned them the second time they all have blonde hair I

don't know why that made a difference but uh it it's a typical Louis story um they still succeeded though they did fantastically well yeah and in fact I think we still have the record of uh for I think it was their first seven singles went to number one and I don't think that's ever happened again you described that moment as as Bittersweet um in your book I I read that you called home to tell your sort of family that yeah this album had gone to number one yeah and the news that you got back was

that your father had passed away from a heart attack yeah yeah I I went to Germany to this um big conference and um uh you know I I did quite a big presentation on on the group and and the reaction in the room was huge and so and I I I I I also was hearing the record was really selling and and uh and I called and I could just tell something wasn't right and I I think someone said to my mom don't tell Simon while he's there and then I phon back and she told

me and I'm like God I can't believe that because I genuinely at that point in my life I just believed my parents are going to live forever I mean it was that um and yeah it was it was tough um however I do believe in God and I do believe um uh because the hardest thing when you lose your parents is you you can't even think about them afterwards because it's too difficult you know everything is and then after a while it's like when I have a question in my mind I do talk to them

in my mind what would you do and I know what they would say so that that I really do still believe they're with me but that was very Bittersweet moment you know um and and probably you know that you know I would have swapped everything I'd succeeded you know to kept him around you know um uh and all the things that you know he taught me over the years it all just you know it was the longest trip home from America you know that that flight was it was it was bad it's a credit to

the man yeah and you know like I said look thank God you know he he he was very wise and he he did give me a Good Steer um and like I a lot of things that still do now I still think of what would my dad say you know uh CU he only lost his temper with me once and boy when he lost it it was like I don't want to go there again but you know he he never hit me he you nothing like that you know but he raised his voice once at

me and that was enough you know but he was very when he was angry at you you knew it um but I also you know I think he would have got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show I know he would have just found the whole thing really really funny he didn't see you on a TV show no no no um that came a few few years later um um uh but you know at least uh he'd seen me you know succeed you know and that meant as much to him I

know as it did to me does the the purpose and the meaning of all the work you're doing change when you lose someone who is so Central to um why you are where you are I'm thinking about your your the sort of immediate people often describe they understand the nature of what their priorities should have been in their life when they experienced the loss of a parent because you're right we grew up and even now it's almost like I think my parents are going to live forever yeah it hasn't crossed my mind I'm living my

life as if they're going to live forever yeah yeah well like I said having gone through you know which was no question in my losing you know both my parents was the hardest thing that ever happened to me but I can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and say cuz everyone says you know when you lose them you know in time it'll get better and you think no it won't and the truth is it does as long as you believe and you have to believe that their presence is still there with

you and I do genuinely believe that with my mom and dad and um oh gosh to give minute okay [Music] um my mom um uh you know she started to get dementia but you know fortunately you know saw Eric she really wanted me to have a kid and she brought him this um uh Brown blanket and uh he still has it literally everything is about the brown blanket you know where's where's my brown blanket and he said to me uh when he was about two or three after you know she passed away he says he

just looked up uh at the sky one night and he said I'm thinking about uh Grandpa Eric and Julie and it was just the way he said it it was like gosh why would you say that now and and that's when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us you know it's it's not a total loss um and I think you know maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them you know up until the point both of them passed away they were my best friends you know uh I could tell them

anything we could talk about anything and you know it's it's how I feel for Eric you know it's just that pure love you know they just want the best for you and in return do you feel the same about them and it's how I feel about Eric you know it's everything starts to be come full circle thank God you know you described the loss of your father um in an interview in your book where you said it put everything into perspective all the things I thought were important chart positions doing showcases with the band and

everything else none of it meant anything anymore yeah it's true really yeah genuinely um uh I can say that because of course I I really really enjoyed every successful moment of my career even when things haven't gone quite a plan there's still a story you know or something to be learned from it that combined Joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose someone it's there is you know it's it's it's it really is meaningless your life really seemed to change drastically when Eric was born yes I think that's even like a bit of an

understatement because yeah when I speak to your team about Simon pre Eric they describe a man that is a workaholic to say the least I was reading about you staying up till 8:00 a.m. in the morning frequently to work and just this absolute obsession with detail and working Sunday Saturday yeah calling people at all hours um free Eric Simon give me a true reflection of that man if I was a fly on the wall in his life what was what was I seeing every day well I think particularly when I lost my mom um uh

I just was on a downward spiral at that point you know it was like uh I lost everyone you know you know I I've lost my my my parent this finality now and what I said about the material things I've got everything just meant nothing at that point I I was desperately unhappy um I wasn't particularly enjoying my work and I just thought you know what I'm just going to become a vampire then and I would work through till 7:00 8:00 in the morning um I would wake up at 2: or 3: in the afternoon

and I actually got addicted to that kind of Lifestyle which was I just led the intensity of it was almost like because of the the loss I'd had I've got to find something else to fill it and it was I'm just going to become a ridiculous workaholic and and I was very successful but I wasn't happy uh really really wasn't happy um uh and it was like the the expression is this as good as it gets that's how I felt there were certain people in my life at that point giving me advice who would just

shouldn't have been in my life um and uh and then when I got the call from Lauren which starts any call starts with are you sitting down you know what's coming next and it was like are you sitting down yes well and she told me and yes it did uh uh absolutely uh change changed everything in my life I mean it it made me happy again for me it was perfect because you know like I we were talking earlier on about our childhood you know it was just brilliant it's like fantastic I remember the first

time I watched Jungle Book with him and I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie it was like oh my God I remember how I felt when I saw the Jungle Book he saved you in many respects didn't he without question without question yeah I I really really had reached the point where nothing mattered even to the point where I almost can't even remember everything from that period it hit me so hard I was like because the the hardest thing also was being on television as well uh because I'm like God

I feel like a clown here you know because I'm dying inside and yet you know I've still got to you know do what I'm being paid to do you know uh as best as I could but you know I I put on a ton of weight uh I was eating Just Junk um it was like if I had got hit by a bus the following day well I'd be dead but I wasn't worried about anything like that you know was there a Darkest Day in that period that you recall the whole the whole time was

dark yeah um I can absolutely relate to uh when people reach the lowest levels you know you possibly can where essentially you know being alive doesn't matter anymore you know be because you just go what have I got to live for did you have those thoughts yeah yeah not not thinking I want to take my own life but thinking if I if if if something terrible happened I it wouldn't bother me you know to myself what I what I have learned fortunately is unfortunately we are all going to go through this and is how we

cope with it and being able to talk about it you know I mean I've spoken you know publicly about mental health particularly men's mental health because there's no question uh I've had I do still suffer from depression at times I've really suffered from depression in the past um I am actually very thin skinned at times uh uh particularly when someone is disloyal you know that I I take things like that very very badly I noticed this cuz I read it's interesting I I read um I was reading loads of Articles and loads of things trying

trying to understand doing all this research and the word loyalty came up over and over and over again as something you would say sometimes an interviews as being really critically important to you yeah I was thinking why is of all the people I've ever interviewed why is loyalty the word that he uses when he describes artists he's worked with and bands and Lou Walsh yeah Lou I watched interview where Lou wol said um the thing Simon loves about me is I'm loyal yeah um uh because of um you know a lot of what we spoke

about today you know my upbringing my working life you know nothing was ever handed to me on a plate you know so um but when people took the time you know like Pete Waterman um that you know there have been fortunately a lot of people over the years who've been amazing have come in and helped me achieve because I could never have done what I did without you know the people who worked with me over the years I've just been very lucky in the main 99% of the people have been just fantastic um however uh

I I yeah I take it really badly when someone who you consider to be a friend rewrites The Narrative afterwards and they become uh because things haven't worked out for themselves they have to blame somebody else right and it's like but we're all in that position yeah you know um there's certain things I can't talk I would talk to you privately yeah privately about why that particular time some other people I was working with um look again on the bright side as long as you're happy today which I am thank God and I'm I'm at

peace today thank god um then then a lot of the bad things that happened previously it's like well that that's your destiny you know uh if if the lights had been red instead of green on a certain day Eric may not have been conceeded that's how I look at life you know you your new work life balance um I found it quite interesting you've put some a lot of sort of parameters and boundaries in place in this new with this new post Eric Simon Cal some of which are you know you don't work Fridays I

read that not really no not really okay um you don't engage in emails after sort of 5:30 6:00 p.m. really never interesting never have social media I I have it but I don't look at it okay so how do you stay away when you on your phone well you know I don't have a phone you don't have a phone at all well I have a car phone which I occasionally use um which is actually an American phone and I swear I don't even know how to use it you don't have a mobile phone uh I

have one that sits in the car okay uh nine times out of 10 um I'll use somebody else's phone because I don't even know how to work any anymore uh I hate them so much because I tell you why I I think they're boring it's it's almost like for me it's like having a a toaster with you all the time it's like it's a toaster and a phone is just as boring you know it's like toast is nice and occasionally a telephone calls nice but not all the bloody time when did you make that decision

to get rid of your phone when I realized by not being on it for about 3 or four months a year I was happy at that time um um and then when it was like oh God it's time to turn my phone back on I start to dread it and then one day uh I thought I'd lost it and it's oh god I've lost my life and it's oh stop being so dramatic it's a stupid telephone um I don't use 99% of the things on it um and I actually really like talking with people like

we're talking now I like meeting people and I like talking from a landline if I have to because the sounds nicer as well I think people would be pretty shocked to hear that Simon Cal doesn't have a phone because you've got this like business Empire you have to run you've got all these people these artists these TV you know all these things how do you nav like my I'd have some like I'd have like an existential crisis if someone told me that I had to get rid of my phone because I think well my business

is going to crumble or or obviously it depends what what you do um for what I do weirdly it kind of helps because um you hear about the important things in life you you don't hear about the unimportant things and that's the best way I suppose describing the advantages so when something really serious happens within seconds you'll hear about it when it's just some piece of Gossip or something which I'm really not interested in uh and someone said did you hear about so and so it's like no and I'm not interested um because I'm not

so someone has to get hold of you how do they contact you I always say honestly if you want to get hold of me and you know me you'll you'll get a hold of me you just will promise you really will you will get a hold of me um uh obviously you know I I I have um pa um I have a partner um I have friends um how does she get hold of you uh she calls me at home and I mean driv are crazy but uh what what would you say to the work

holics out there including me that haven't quite yet had life teach us the hard way oh my God I don't know where to start like what would you say to Simon at 31 years old which is how old I am s at 31 well I would say work out genuinely from from the the good things that have happened how much time are you spending time on where your gut is telling you this isn't worth the effort and but your ego is sort of saying but it's your idea so it must work there are always going

to be moments where you have made the wrong decision and sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should uh rather just let's just hang on to that or um also understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative uh I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired I'm certainly at my best when I slept well um I'm feeling fit um I'm feeling happy um then I'm in a completely different mindset you know I I would because I still uh see each episode before it goes out about three or four times so

don't forget these episodes are about the length of a movie so I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week uh every second every sound C every audience shot I mean it's the the the the focus you've got to give it it's unbelievable um so I think I would have said you know what Simon why don't you enjoy what you're doing a little bit more um is the fifth day going to really make a difference if you're working better on the four days is not really going to make any difference it's the truth uh by

the way it's much more fun having a three-day uh weekend and the two-day weekend um and um it's just stuff like that I suppose did you used to think that if other people weren't working at the same tenacity as you they weren't as interested or they you know cuz I'm thinking about how you now interact with the people you work with if back then you working till 8:00 a.m. in the morning I imagine you're dragging a lot of people with you yes I was love so fun yeah I I I did drag a few people

along with me um and I apologize um having said that one thing you can't escape is that to be good at anything you got to put the hours it it is hard work I mean look yes people win the lottery you hear about these crazy success stories but they are one in literally a billion I mean for me the majority of people I've met uh who haven't inherited anything but have just built something on their own they've done it because they're they're talented they've got great instincts and importantly they have really really put the hours

in uh because if somebody you know comes to work for me at say 21 years old and says you know 5:30 right I'm off and don't bother calling me on the weekend I'm going to go well I I'm not going to bet the house on you you know uh I when I was younger genuinely I didn't even think about weekends it was like um when I was a runner you know I would do 80 nowadays and loved every second of it because for every day I was doing it I was learning something more um and

then I think you know there is a point where when hopefully you realize that you've kind of got your groove you know what you're doing you're being successful You' got a good team around you then I think it's a question of okay well then don't kill yourself in the process um I mean seriously um uh find uh and this is you know going back to uh to phones you know which is and I'm the same with emails is if if even if it's great news um and and you get the news at 7 8:00 at

night you can't just go right I'm going to sleep now because your brain's going to go into overdrive and I think you know getting good sleep is crucial absolutely crucial uh you hear about these people who survive and 4 hour sleep at night like how you know I need like 10 hours if possible possible I really believe that sleep is the best medicine your body can have and the ability to be able to sleep peacefully you know uh that's really really important imagine if old Simon had you say that he'd be like yeah [Laughter] right

you said don't kill yourself in the process but 2020 you had a very very serious accident yeah which was unfortunate at the time of the pandemic so we're all trapped inside anyway you were on a electric motorbike where you had an accident and broke your back in three places you had a very intense six-hour surgery which included having a metal rod put into your back to stabilize it um and according to all the accounts that I've heard you were very lucky to be alive yeah yeah yeah actually yeah uh it was pretty bad um I

think that's an understat what I've heard uh again there is a silver lining uh because I wasn't fit prior I thought I was fit I looked okay but I wasn't fit uh I I was really getting up even though I changed my hours I was still getting up going straight to the telephone and I would sit by that telephone for hours and hours and hours and I really wasn't getting the steps and I wasn't eating properly and all this kind of stuff um so once I um you know I I it was a bad accident

and I knew it was bad the second it happened uh and and the recovery was pretty difficult however the I had a fantastic nurse and she literally she was like you a you know how a cuckoo just pushes the bird out she just one day said to me just get out into your garden and even if you can walk 20 Paces just do it and I did it and it was hard and then I just built up built up built up and then I started to build up my step count over time and then when

I really had to put the proper steps in per day my feet were just like for like ragged because they weren't used to walking so it was weird if I if I had to go back in time again to get to where I am today I would have gone through that again as bad as it was the up side was worth it because if I hadn't broken my back I don't think I would have ever realized how unfit I really really was you spoke about because the pandemic is an interesting time to have a like

debilitating injury like that because you're trapped inside as it is when you have a back injury or any severe injury like that you're immobilized yeah and all of this has a really significant impact on your mental health because I've sat here with people who have had a back injury like Craig David I remember him telling me the darkest depression he had in his life life was when he injured his back and couldn't move Much Anymore yeah and how that has a knock on effect of all things but then you have the pandemic as well which

is keeping you indoors and I heard you were you're in inside for a long period of time because of that injury because of the pandemic um you stayed in your your house there for a long time was it almost a year or something crazy near a year what was if I was a fly on the wall in in that house during that time what would I have seen well again the hard really the hardest thing was uh uh cuzz you know the guy had to it got so bad I had to sign a form you

know just before I had the operation which was you know if this doesn't work out uh will you allow us to switch to the machine off I'm like well that's encouraging just before I'm about to go under um so I'm thinking God this could be that's this could be it um but I was in so much pain I was just thinking just please please just get me out of this pain and and it the first three days afterwards I was like actually it's painful but not as bad as I thought and the doctor said yeah

you've got pain receptors in your spine right now they're going to wear off in a couple of days get ready and when they wore off it was like whoa it was unbelievable um and then I'm on all these uh painkilling drugs blah blah blah and do you know what I'm doing I'm phoning my lawyer saying H where's my will and then I'm also trying to sell a show at the same time and fortunately um my my PA knew I was just all all over the place and she was saying um yeah the person you're trying

to get a hold of isn't available right now but you know obviously I was just so delirious I was just all over the place for the first three days because after a traumatic injury like that you are but I had a fantastic surgeon um uh I really got off the painkillers uh much earlier than uh they thought I would like a month earlier and that was for me really significant and then when I started to put the steps in and getting up to 20 30,000 steps a day without my feet falling apart it was like

actually it was worth it genuinely worth it is this when you first went to therapy around this time it was yeah and and I think it was probably because it after that injury um and all the time I'd had to think about things I really had a chance to kind of really think things through and go uh it it would be actually crazy for me not to go to therapy after everything I've gone through um and talk to somebody who is an expert who you can trust um who can advise you and it's a bit

like really going to the gym you know it's like wow you feel great afterwards and it's you know you think initially oh it's going to be bit embarrassing how do I start the conversation but they're so they're so good and they're so well trained at what they do it gave me I don't know it just made me feel better in so many ways because stuff that used to bother me I would talk to them about and and you almost kind of get the answer you know it's going to be but someone needs to tell you

other than yourself if that makes sense you know the answer but you kind of need someone to validate it yeah um did you go to the the I've been to therapy I've also been to therapy with my partner do couples therapy every week yeah I've done that which is really useful yeah my my God ours would make the best reality show on the planet keep thinking good idea seriously um what was the when you went to the therapist was it because of how you were feeling following the the back injury and the pandemic or was

it just more broadly that you hadn't processed a lot of things throughout the last couple of decades was there a specific issue you went with that's a good question I I think I I met a few people who had who were in the entertainment business and we spoke a lot about how do you deal with this how do you deal with that and they all well two people in particular said we went into therapy and and they said do have you tried it I went no they said try it once see how how you feel

and when I went it was very interesting because what you realize is that most of us have actually bottled stuff up you know somewhere in our bodies and it's like a release and and we all need that release because there's something in your brain which you haven't spoken about or something that's bothered you and you don't know who to talk about or whatever whatever whatever and actually it's not a weakness if anything it's the strength to be able to admit that we are all vulnerable that we none of us are perfect that we do need

help and there are people much smarter than us who can just help you and why not take advantage of that because I promise you I don't believe there's a single person in the world who would go to a great therapist and then walk out and go yeah I didn't need that but we all do right uh in the same way we're discovering things about nutrition and you know uh food and the importance of that and you know a lot of what we were talking about social media and some of the negativities all these things you

know we we're not programmed I don't believe to deal with so much so so quickly so we've got to find you know different ways of um not just sorting your bodies out but sorting your your your your your mental you know it's not even mental health it it's just life you know it's that you know just having someone who's trained to to to give you better priority other things to think about things you don't forgotten about all those kind of things I learned through doing it has it had a big impact on you massive yeah

massive yeah and in fact I I got out of the Habit only because of my schedule and I'm dued back I think in about two or three weeks time and I literally can't wait um because I I I really do think I found someone special his name his name's Justin uh if he's listening Justin you are the best I adore you um and he's I I consider him you know a friend I I really really like him and respect him sometimes we don't get to say to people how much we appreciate them and all the

impact we've had on them until they're gone because especially as men sometimes we can be a little well I'm just speaking for myself here I can uh I can feel a little bit I think how I was raised a little bit H about expressing my emotions yeah so Justin for example what would you say to Justin as in terms of how he's helped you if he was listening I think he he if we had a list of what's the most important things the top 10 list of priorities he's changed the order of what would have

been my 1 to 10 he shuffled the order so something that might have been number eight might become number three now um and he simplified my way of thinking which is s he said to me Simon I think you actually overthink a lot of things by the way and I'm like actually you got a point I do actually uh and um a lot of what you know we've been talking about today a lot of this has come from working with Justin um and and like I said having Absolut no embarrassment what whatsoever about the fact

that I needed it um I think uh like I said a lot of people in my opinion do need help full stop at some point in their lives and it is nothing to be embarrassed about it isn't Eric comes to you and says Dad you've built an incredible business you've been incredibly successful Dad I need some advice I want to be successful in my career too I'm planning on doing something special which I don't know what what it is yet dad but I want to be successful in when I go into the professional world what

do I what what advice would you give me dad um based on the career you've had what are those foundations those fundamentals I'm going to say to him be good at what you do and therefore be patient and learn and the learning and the getting there is as enjoyable as being there because in my opinion it is having gone through both sides uh I've been at my happiest when I'm broke I've been at my unhappiest at times when I've been wealthy and I've also been happy when I've been successful um uh the most important thing

is on a Sunday night you want that feeling of excitement that Monday is coming and it's something to look forward to uh and that this is what we're supposed to do in our lives is do something which we enjoy and it's not a question of having more than other people or less it's it's irrelevant there's always people who have less than you and more than you that's not really the the measure of of of your happiness your happiness stems from achieving something believing in in something um and just loving what you do I'm very lucky

because I still love what I do I mean yes there are times I'm like God this is a long day today or you know it hasn't been a great day but overall I pinch myself still because I'm I'm fortunate enough that I am able to do something which I really really love doing I I love creating things I love thinking of things and I also like the idea that somehow I'll make it happen and even if it takes me 10 years if I still have that strong belief somehow I'll try and make it happen and

if it doesn't quite work out at least I can say well I gave it a shot I'd also say to him don't blame other people if it doesn't work out you know you have to trust your instincts and you have to have a strong work e um but enjoy that and that's why you know as I said finding something which you're passionate about is is for me it's the most important thing more than anything else and because like I said you know going back to the time when I was in the post room and an

estate agent you know I loved being in the mail room a thousand times more than being an estate agent it just you know it was a great example you know uh when I you know change jobs to make more money it actually made me more unhappy uh because I didn't like the people you know hated the job not say all the state agents are bad by the way this particular company at the time might be all right now were awful then um but um that's what I think uh I would say to anyone I like

uh or didn't like uh you know find your passion and then try and be the best of it Legacy Legacy yeah that's been front of mine a few recently hasn't it yeah yeah it is a lot yeah um and to your point you know when you are when we're doing something like this or something I've made in the past I'm always aware or if I'm editing a clip on a on a great contestant I'm very aware that that is their legacy as well and I want to make that clip like perfection in my mind you

know I want every second of it to be beautiful and cinematic you know and because they live on life online forever these clips now um but yeah Legacy is I I think about this a lot definitely and I think um somewhere I read it was a great quote about I'm going to say this really badly but it's along the lines of of if you live your life with your eyes open wide enough you will eventually find the person you're looking for I.E my Pete wman you know because don't think certainly when you're younger that you've

got all the smarts to do it yourself you know being smart is finding the person who is smarter than you who is willing to take you under their wing um but to get that person to take you under their wing you've got to show them I'm prepared to put the work in as well and if you could paint the picture of your own legacy the Legacy that Eric will remember of Simon Cal what was what is that Legacy that you would like to leave him with and I guess the world with oh well I think

uh I like people I mean I genuinely like people I remember being about six years old and seeing somebody um I think it was the ideal home exhibition and uh I oh my God it's so inser I'm completely Star Struck and I just went over said hi can I have your autograph and he went no and I was like I was destroyed and and I I I have never ever said no to somebody it drives Lauren and even Eric sometimes crazy cuz I don't care in the middle of dinner or whatever I'm doing if someone

wants a picture an autograph I I'm I'll always say yes because I take it as a compliment you know because it's U they watch something I've made and and I also know in Reverse what it feels like um if someone's rude to you um because if that's if if if you don't like people you can't do this job um so I hope my legacy will be that you know I I kind of achieved everything you know without a head start and I've treated people well I I that's what I would like to think I'll hand

over to Eric both of those things although you have changed your life in many ways Prett extreme extreme ways very extreme ways from the sort of the pre Eric Simon to the post Eric Simon who has put boundaries and balance in place and is focusing more you know you talked about that priority list of 10 things with your therapist um it's quite clear in everything I've I've read that number one priority right now is the family yeah and everything is secondary to that that's accurate right it's an accurate yeah yeah it is um but I

think um what concerns me a lot at the moment is um and I hope hope things are going to change is that I do see bullying On The Rise um and uh and I think that is uh partly due well actually a lot to do with social media um I do see unfortunately people unhappy because they think they need material things in their life to make them happy and look of course it's it's better to have money than not but it's not everything and you know like I said I can genuinely say that because i'

I've experienced both I preferred it when I had money but I it wasn't the end of the world when I didn't you know and um so I I just I get sad a lot of the times when I think about people who think well you know I'm not great at school so what am I going to do with my life or I need everything think by the age of 21 and or blah blah blah blah blah it's like actually you know what it doesn't have to be that way you know if you really really do

have the patience and like I said the you might have a friend who's got a more flashier job and blah blah blah but if you if you it for the long Hall you're going to be better off at the end you know it's trying to get that message to people you know I was just thinking then about um One Direction fact I'm friends with uh some of the boys I say some of the boys one of the boys from One Direction and they how do you how do you like make them ambitious but at the

same time make them not lose their mind because because I sat with Liam and he was he was on the podcast and he's he talked about his struggles struggling with all of these things that the change in his life we all wish and dream for that yeah but then the reality is something that no one can be prepared for yeah the brain is not set up in such a way to deal with that amount of Hysteria yeah around you so has your thoughts around this changed or evolved based on your own experiences as Simon and

the things you've been through well uh personally I think it's better to have success than not yeah um what is great I mean what I said to the boys and you know it was quite obvious you know once they were on the show they were going to be really really successful with the right records I mean they just for me they would like the the perfect group are they the most successful artist you've ever developed H gosh I I actually don't know the answer to that no I mean I know they were very successful they

sold a lot of Records um okay they made a lot of money um uh I said to them a lot of what we're talking about which is don't ever complain about Paparazzi cuz they are going to take you pictures um don't complain about invasion of privacy because people are going to always want to a picture taken with you um don't complain about the long hours because there are going to be long hours um so if if none of this if any of this is a problem just do something else I mean because I promise you

all of this is going to come with it there'll be times where you're going to go my God this is a gring schedule and oh my God what can't someone just leave me alone for one minute because I want I want I want to have my dinner uh why are you taking my picture that is going to come with the territory and the truth is it's worth it it's a very very very it's not even a price toate it just comes with it it's hard work you are going to become well known um and uh

you are going to lose a lot of your privacy if you want to be an accountant you're not going to have any of those issues it just won't be as much fun so you know some people want to be accountant some people want a more exciting life um I've always been a huge fan of bands because it's a much easier way uh first of all I think it's more fun being in a band than being a solo artist yeah uh particular if you like your band mates um it's a brilliant way to get noticed if

you want to become uh a successful solo artist like they've all become and being in the band was the Catalyst to that you know I'm about to do it again this year yes I heard about this you're searching for another boy band yeah and I'm doing it because you know right now there isn't I don't think a band who has been as good as One Direction since One Direction um in my opinion um and if you look at the amount of solo artists versus bands right now in the world in pop music it is unbelievable

I mean if you think of Motown and that whole era it was as many bands as there were solo artist so something uh has gone a miss and the only way I know to put a band together is somebody has to audition them so we just thought you know what if I don't do it this I'm going to really regret it so let's just do it um and we're going to document the whole process so this time uh you're going to see exactly what happens uh from the minute we go we're going to do it

to how you logistically do it how do you choose the people blah blah blah uh because I think it will be interesting and and but there's no safety blank here on this in terms of I haven't gone to a record label and go and say right I'm doing this will you guarantee me a record deal I've got to hope that the band are good enough to get a record deal what's the secret Source people I mean it is personality I mean I think that's the one thing about One Direction is they all had great personalities

and they were just interesting people and as uh the first time I saw them uh a as a band uh after we asked them to be in a band I was in Spain and I saw them walking up the beach and as they're walking up the beach everyone's looking around no one ever heard of them at this point and I thought it's unbelievable everyone's looking at these five boys as if they're already stars and there was some there was just this glow about them um and because you know I've had hits with bands I've had

Miss with bands and it could be that I was 1% off or I was 80% off I don't know um but when it doesn't work you the there's no there's no money in the world that will make something that isn't going to work work um it's just one of those things you you just got to hope you get lucky and find the right people have you got better at I don't know don't know it could be that I'm completely useless now um all I know is if I had to trust anyone to do it I

would trust me more than anyone else I would and are you waiting for a feeling is it like or is there like some kind of data in Ai and some Excel spreadsheet that ranks them based on you know these things is a feeling yeah it it it has to be um and this is and this is the difficulty is that you are selling an act to to somebody who I'm not you know your fans are going to be Prim primarily teenages um so you've kind of got to guess what that audience are going to like

uh but don't overthink it because um I I've seen a lot of people particularly recently put bands together and they walk out and within one second I'm thinking all of this is wrong I can tell that someone's told them what to wear I know what their Spiel is going to be it's all rehearsed nothing spontaneous and I'm thinking why does that person whoever's behind the scenes why can't they let them just be themselves that's why I sit to One Direction which is look I can just give you a broad kind of over like I said

this is what's going to probably happen when you're successful ful um uh and then after a few years you're going to want to leave the band that's going to happen and blah blah blah blah blah oh no no we're going to be friends forever I say yeah whatever um um do what you like and that was sort of it I just say look when you got a problem come to me um uh it's really down to you to make this work uh you've got to love the records you make you've got to influence the records

you make you can't dance so don't try and dance um don't ever hire a stylist because you've already got great taste um and just be yourselves and Mo and really really have fun because there like I said there will be days where you're going to go oh God I'm really tired I don't like this and you know no one will leave me alone and then in 10 years time you're going to look back on this and go wow we had a blast could you have predicted I know all the boys have done really well in

their own Endeavors but Harry has become well he he still is a mega star and often with boy bands once they break up you know they kind of some of them fizzle out and whatever but Harry seems to have just taken on you know he's really managed to find his own Groove yeah it appears I always I'm not I'm not gonna lie I mean the first time I met Harry he sang A Stevie wand song which talk about pies so I'm not sitting there thinking you're going to become one of the most successful artists in

the world in 12 years time I mean no one would have thought that I just thought you're unbelievably charismatic and you're fun um and the audience are like like you and great and then for whatever reason it didn't work out in my opinion uh for them as solo artists you know for different reasons in that part of the show and then we just had this idea in the moment to put them in a band and then like I said you know where I think pretty much all of them have done great is that they've used

the the the group as a vehicle to go where they really want to go yeah in their lives and would Harry be Harry without One Direction well none of us could answer that I I I I couldn't tell you um all I know is being in the group definitely made it easier of course and that's why uh I thought interestingly uh about seven or eight years ago I thought there's not going to be any need for these shows anymore um because of social media and here's the crazy thing is that the amount of UK artists

that have broken globally in the last say seven years has fallen off a cliff literally if you think about how many Global artists British have broken globally in the last seven years it's possibly three which is crazy I I can't think of three well can so um is AI a concern an opportunity does it cross your mind uh I think both uh I don't think you'll ever beat the real thing yeah having said that um it'll happen I mean sooner rather than later I think there already is a Japanese artist who doesn't exist and she

sells out Stadium um so there's no question it's going to it's going to happen but people are always going to be more interested in the real thing if you go to a concert you know you want to see those people you want to say I was within touching distance of that person not something that doesn't exist I I would I would agree to much a big extent I actually think that um a lot of the people are actually building AI like Sam Alman the other day he said he believes that there's going to be a

huge surge in people's demand and desire for Real in-person Entertainment and experiences especially in a world if AI causes a little bit of a displacement in the job market and we have more free time which is what he he's the guy that's building chatu PT he says the we're going to see the industry boom around entertainment and I've actually got a billionaire friend that lives about 5 minutes from here in a penthouse billionaire in biotech AI everything he's just a super smart guy and when when I sat with him he said the same thing to

me um he said you know what's going to Boom he said people's need for entertainment yeah in a world where a lot of the work can be even you know cars being a driver is the biggest employer in the world the autonomous vehicles that are driving around San Francisco as taxis now are a glimpse of that future so all these people that are going to be displaced in some way will need will have a lot of free time yeah and that will cause us to be you know maybe live in communes but yeah but also

just to really go back to in real life experiences and I did a post the other day about this how you see um opposites rise Polar Opposites rise together like digital music surged vinyl records become a little bit popular and bowling alleys and now you know seeing a surge and these sort of uh Flight Club in these sort of in-person experiences because we've become so digitalized and I see entertainment as one of those things like the entertainment industry concerts festivals yeah it's being a nice place to run to from sets you no I think you're

right I think and it's it's a it's a good point you make about the the two opposites um fast fashion slow fashion we saw that rise as well what is so fascinating as well is is is seeing these Brands which are 50 60 years old suddenly become super huge again whether it's Lego whether it's Mario Brothers whether it's Barbie um because sometimes you know there's this feeling of um am I just saying things were better because I'm just getting cranky which is quite depressing and then I go actually no queen or David Bowie or Elton

John were are the best artists of all time I mean George Michael just is um and I don't think there's anybody in the world as good as George Michael today I genuinely don't I wish there was and by the way he was one of the nicest people I'd ever met in my life really yeah but no I think it we're just going through a very interesting time right now and uh I'm a great believer Embrace anything that's going to help you um don't dismiss it but um I still think you know when again when when

I was talking to One Direction I remember saying to them our goal is for you to have enough hits that if you ever reform that you could do Stadium tours that means you got to have about 10 hit singles um uh because that's what people want to hear they want to hear the hits um and you know if they ever did reform that's exactly what would happen are they going to come back I doubt it you doubt it I doubt it Spice Girls came back Spice Girls came back many years later the one thing I

regret is I should have kept the name oh you should have owned the name I should have owned the name you didn't own the name no who own who's the name they do oh okay that's the problem could have made an animation or whatever um but when you give an artist the name it's not yours and that's my only regret so if you're listening I'll buy it back from you so they all five we do it as a partnership well uh I mean yeah I mean sure there we go you were there but that's the

only thing I I do regret uh because if one of the band members for whatever reason say they don't want to tour it can stop the others touring so if it was me who owned the name it wouldn't be a problem you could do a tour with three of them so that's what's stopping a tour because they what do they all own 205 20% I believe so yes I mean I can be very naive at times and that was me being very very naive uh so next time that will be part of the deal I

have to earn the name they can still make most of the money but I need to earn the name we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for oh so the question that's been left for you by our previous guest was what one decision could you make today that would have the most positive impact on your life long term don't eat sugar really yeah yeah seriously that's true I can't AR sleep it's not good for you

yeah yeah thank you so much [Music] oh [Music]