Joe Rogan Experience #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell

two one boom and we're live first of all cheers gentlemen let's have a little toast relax bob thank you very much for doing this i really appreciate it i understand that you've told this story many many times you've been grilled many many times and it's very stressful for you so i really really appreciate your time for people who don't know the story there is a documentary jeremy corbell has a documentary out right now it's called bob lazar area 51 and ufos and flying saucers and flying saucers bombs are air 51 and flying okay um i

first heard your story decades ago i've i told you last night we went out to dinner i've seen pretty much every interview you've ever given i've followed the story incredibly closely but for people who don't know the story let's give them the bullet points you used to work at area 51 in area 51 you got you you went like well you know we want to be accurate okay area s4 s4 okay it's about 15 miles south of area 51. okay um you worked in what would you how would you describe it i i guess within

the area 51 compound you can call that a subset of area 51. and you got that job before that you were working before that i had worked at los alamos right national labs in new mexico and you were involved in what kind of work nuclear weapon development physics i mean that's they do everything there so how do they approach you to say hey bob once you come on out to the nevada desert well the way this went down was um at that time it was 1982 i had put a jet engine in my my honda

and los alamos put it on the front page of the paper said you know uh los alamos man physicist at the lab you know built this 200 mile an hour you know on the jet car that i drove to work every day so uh so i was known in los alamos the guy with the weird car and you know you could hear it from you know a mile away anyway the day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day edward teller the father of the hydrogen bomb was giving a lecture

down there at the lab and we didn't have much going on that day in our group and i asked if i could go down there and i went down there early and ed teller was outside leaning on a brick wall there and reading the front page of the paper now there's a guy out of history so i introduced myself hey i'm the guy you're reading about there and we talked for a little while and it was cool uh you know fast forward to years later i had moved out to las vegas and had you know

left los alamos and you know went on to other things and i wanted to get back into the scientific community yeah i left start other businesses and and that sort of thing so i sent resumes out and one of them went out to ed teller and referenced our meeting you know back back in that the day and uh anyway he remembered me and gave me a reference somebody to contact at egng and that's pretty much how it started so you get a phone call or a letter like what do you get well i got a

what did i get i got a letter initially and um went down for an interview probably a couple times and it was down at eg g special projects which was um at mccarran airport at that time out in las vegas and did they give you any sort of job description of what you were applying for um they said it was for ed i can't remember exactly what they did this was a long time ago but i i think it was um advanced propulsion or something like that something relatively generic and they said it's in a

remote area um you know it's gonna be some days on some days off and um you know it was kind of a it was kind of uh not exactly a full-time job but you might have to be out there for two weeks at a time and take two weeks off so it was kind of uh the work schedule would be kind of broken up and did this seem attractive to you or did it seem weird no it really wasn't weird because people that work at the test site anybody that's familiar with the area up there

um you know working at the nuclear test site uh or at the tonopod test range north of there uh that's typically how things go so you had known about it from the scientific community because the area 51 at that time was no they didn't say anything about area 51. okay so they just said it was in a you know in a remote location and you just know it was up at the test site right so but there was no mention of area 51 at that time so they've done hundreds of nuclear tests in nevada and

nevada that whole area was there's been there's giant chunks of nevada the people yeah there's a big piece of nevada and it's split up into different areas there's a nuclear test site there's area 51 there's the tonopod test range north of that there's little sub-areas there's areas where they test chemical weapons and things like that so it's all broken up as a you know gigantic test area so take me back to first day on the job you accept a job they take you out there yeah it's um the first day really i didn't really get

to see a whole lot the first day was essentially just paperwork that's when i flew into area 51 proper and i left mccarran airport and flew what they call the janet flights just um you know a passenger plane from las vegas to area 51 and it was really just going through a mountain of paperwork that day from security clearances to um god there was it was like two or three hours of just solid paperwork and that was that was really an uneventful first day when did things get weird when did you realize that at what

point in time did you say hey this is not normal work like this doesn't even seem like it's from this planet that i can't tell you what day that occurred on because so much time has gone by the days have kind of fused into one and i can't separate the days was it a slow burn or was there a moment of recognition well the the first inkling i had was when i i came in normal there's this facility that is at s4 it's in the side of a mountain and normally we had pulled in with

the bus and gone around the front through a normal double door this time that i went in there were hangar doors open i went into the hangar door and in the hangar door was the disc the flying saucer that i worked on i saw it sitting there and we walked by it had a little american flag stuck on the side and i thought oh my god this finally explains all the flying saucer stories this is just an advanced fighter and it this is [ __ ] hilarious right so i went by i slid my hand

alongside it i got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing and uh there was a guy an armed guard that followed us in and just said keep your eyes at forward and your hands at your side and just walk in the door so that was the first time i had seen anything that was weird it was some time later that i was introduced to my um my lab partner barry and we had some of the subcomponents of the craft in the lab and barry was very anxious to get a new lab partner so he was very

talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things and it was in the demonstration of the reactor working where it caught my attention to where this is technology that doesn't even exist so i mean that was the first time i knew that this is really something different what was it what was it what was a what was it about this reactor that made you think that it didn't exist technologically well it was the i actually have to back up because there were some briefings that i read it before that that you know certainly gave me

the impression that this was going to be a weird job but this was the first hands-on thing this was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere about the size of a basketball on a metal plate and when it was running it produced a gravitational field a gravitational field of its own now this is something that we can't do we can't produce any gravity the only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass but there's no machine we can have that turns on that makes gravity like you know you can turn on

an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field we can't make a gravitational field anyway this device was producing that and barry said almost like he was bragging go ahead try and try and touch the sphere and i i couldn't it would it pushed my hands away just like two like poles of a magnet so that was uh so like when you take two magnets and try to press them together yeah you have this each other yeah kind of cushion feeling but you can't you can't get them together the closer you put them the more they

push but then you felt that physically with my hand yeah now there's nothing there's nothing that does that and that immediately caught my attention going wow this is something else what was your thought like when you felt that and you knew that there was nothing that you were aware of that could produce that connected me to the briefings that i read on the the first day at s4 was that uh you know everything that i had read was apparently accurate what were you reading i read it was kind of an overview this project was to

back engineer the alien craft and specifically it was to try and back engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials now to do this they split the project into you know many different pieces for several reasons they do this on all classified projects so uh nobody has the complete story but uh they compartmentalize everything now we had the power and propulsion system so what the briefings they gave me were like a one or two page overview of some of the other projects that were going on you know on the craft the

only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way that we don't know of to one of the other projects you have to know there excuse me their existence so um you know i but again everything from metallurgy to um you know weapon potential the craft and these were all you know essentially very short briefings but mine was just power and propulsion and it made it very clear that what i read was accurate so when you're reading that before you actually saw the reactor what were your

thoughts on what they were describing if you knew that something like that didn't exist and they're describing it in the briefings what did you think you were going to see i really i i didn't know at the time i mean i was reading i thought is this just some kind of test um see if you're crazy well not to see if i'm crazy to you know a lot of times they'll take in real high security uh jobs i mean they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them um whether it's to confuse the fact or if for someone

was to leak it out they would carry that information along and know where it came from so i read through the documents but you know i didn't know if this was you know part of some kind of test or um you know or what or was it potentially realistic i mean i really didn't consider it being all that possible as far as being uh the actual thing that i was going to work on at the time how did they turn it on the the reactor yeah the reactor can be turned on or turned off in

a lot of different ways um the way barry showed me at the hemisphere is removed there's a small tower in the middle when you put the hemisphere on the reactor activates the reactor shuts down it's it's load sensing so if there's if there's no load on the reactor at all it shuts down when there's a load present on it it starts up again load meaning you can consider it an electrical load so although it doesn't necessarily operate electrically there's no wiring that connects any of the sub components together whatsoever they just have to be in

the immediate vicinity it's uh it is but the stuff is borderline magic and that's essentially where we left it you know when i left the project so there was no progress made there was some progress i mean we did identify at least we think some processes and and had a rough idea we think of what was going on but i think this is a problem that they've had for a long time and um you know i was replacing somebody that barry worked with prior to me and i think there was some horrific accident that i

didn't have a whole lot of information on but you know barry alluded to that horrific accident like where someone died or yeah where somebody died because they were trying to tamper with things or figure out how something worked yeah the reactor in particular but yeti let you touch it yeah i think what they were trying to do was cut into one now they had they had more than one there and they that was supposedly there was an unannounced nuclear test and that's what it was at the time remember they would still do an underground nuclear

test at the test site um but from what i understand according to barry there was an attempt made now this must have been a pretty desperate intent because it's not a very scientific process to cut you know analyze something that way but it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something like that to cut into an operating reactor how many of these things did they have they had nine nine craft altogether i only got hands on with one of them so i can't really say what the how the others operated did you see the

other ones yeah at one time and only one time the bay doors that between the hangers were all open and i could see all the way through and were they all exactly the same no they were all different different shapes yeah but they were all from somewhere else yeah absolutely now did anyone make any attempt to explain or to to tell you where they came from no no no one is the least bit interested in letting everybody know all the facts they want to give you the minimum information that's necessary to complete your task so

you're not getting the story of where they came from you're not getting the story of what how much progress other people are making you just focus on the small component but they gave you some indication that they've been working on these for a while yeah when do you think they acquired these i really couldn't say i think they've been around for a while so they bring you into this room you see this reactor working you you realize this is nothing that as far as like the scientific community at current time has the ability to create

we still don't what is your life like from that moment on is that where everything changes because you do you i mean i would imagine the moment you actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial whether it's an object or a being something where you can actually absolutely be certain it's not from here your whole paradigm the whole world you live in is now a different place well this is the only time it became exciting you know the rest of the time the it was really an ominous feeling being at work but it at that time

it was exciting i mean this was now i knew we were on the absolute be actually beyond the cutting edge of science and i was i was so absolutely excited to be there every single time i was um you know it would this was a fantastic opportunity and however in short order it began to concern me we really have no idea what we're talking about and the excitement kind of turned to dread at some point because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical i mean to affect gravity to produce the effects like this

equipment does takes huge amounts of power and i've given the example before of you know taking a small portable nuclear reactor and you know putting it back into victorian times you know with the scientists of the time and just dropping it in a room and they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works so they start taking it apart and as soon as they get some of the shielding off the people are going to drop dead because of the radiation inside now the people have no idea that

radiation even exists back then but anybody that comes in to check on him will also drop dead and you know there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with we have no idea how the physics operate within this thing the power levels are are like i said astronomic like it's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that and you know in some respects we were guinea pigs just try to find out how to make this thing so they had a series as far as you're surmised that a series of different

scientists try to back engineer this thing try to figure out what this thing was and they would bring in new people and like let's throw bob at it yeah yeah and they i know i don't know how many but i knew there was certainly one before me and i knew he died during the analysis of the or the reactor itself and you don't know how many have worked on it and no one gave this could have been there for 50 years it could have been there for five years when they're giving you instructions what are

they saying like when they're giving you direction they're showing you all the stuff like what what are they saying what specifically what are they asking of you well essentially what they ask is is what i said all we are just to gather as much information as possible find out how it operates and see if we can duplicate it so but they always realize you where it was from they never let you ask questions about where it's from well if the information i read in the briefings was accurate now what i do have to say is

the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate what i read did i mean did jive with reality um in terms of how in terms of how it was made how what we saw how it operated the materials how it you know turned on and what was discovered uh discovered about it i'm sorry the migraine is really making it hard for me to thank you sorry no we talked that before the podcast you tell her buddy bob is getting a migraine i know you're very stressed out by this which is one of the reasons

why i appreciate you doing this um where was i already we were talking oh right yeah explained it and uh so there was some paperwork that indicated that this was from the zeta reticuli star system now yeah now how they obtain that i haven't i haven't the slightest idea but it wasn't just from the zeta reticuli star system it was what they called zr3 so it was a third planet in that star system so there was no other information about it other than that supposedly where the craft came from now is that true i don't

know i have no way of verifying that but that was printed in the same materials that referenced the reactor now i looked that stuff up when i went home and zeta reticular is a binary star two stars that orbit orbit one another and it's only visible in the southern hemisphere and it's about thirty some odd light years away so that's literally all the information i have about that i don't know how they found out it came from there and you also probably have some suspicions that they give you some disinformation like you were talking about

before they would yeah yeah to i mean if you ever decided to talk about this they added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is factual look ridiculous right or be able to trace it down like hey this facts came out and you know this lazar guy said it you know came from zeta reticulate so they knew it was when we read zeta reticulate we're like what in the [ __ ] is this well reading all of this stuff it was what in the [ __ ] is this you're like why did i sign up

for this no no to me this was cool this is interesting i said i was just excited to be out in a secure area you know in the middle of the desert i said this is awesome how old are you i get as in my 20s yeah so you're probably totally geeked out oh yeah this was this was great i mean i i was excited so i didn't care reading through everything and so you read through all the zeta reticuli thing but then when you see the actual starship with the little american flag sticker on

it well that was was that later or before that that was before so before so you see the thing before and you say oh this is where what's that before hard so many years yeah i can't either way it doesn't matter the days have fused together it's so hard to separate what happened in each visit do you remember the thought process when you read that it's from zeta reticuli yeah it it it it didn't hit me like a ton of bricks or anything it's just like yeah okay you think it was [ __ ] i

don't know this is where i don't know now i don't i mean because when i read it i hadn't verified anything and this was just a bunch of stuff i was reading and i thought maybe after this they're just going to give me a test and see what i can remember in right crazy information and it would but like i said when i finally went in with barry um and had hands-on experience with what they were talking about it taught on a completely different meaning so there's a plate there's this thing that looks like a

half a basketball and when it's on you can't come anywhere near it you can't touch it right how is what is gravity about that like the the concept of gravity to most people gravity is bringing something towards it right well i guess you would say it's anti-gravity it's gravity shifted 180 degrees it's uh you know anti-gravity and did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect did they have any areas where they'd like you to look into no they well they knew there was a fuel source in it and they were proficient

at making it work and again my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside you know somebody's place everybody will come around it and they'll poke and prod and eventually they'll turn the key get it to start and become proficient at writing it yeah but they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on they won't be able to make the plastic fender much less anything else and i think that's exactly the state we were at we

played around with the parts long enough before i got there where they could make the reactor operate take the fuel out and know that it makes it work how exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time i think we made some progress on what was going on inside but i don't think anybody really knew anything they could just watch what was going on and make note of it how long were you there i'd say about six months or so and what what progress was made while you were there well

we came up with a bunch of reasonably good ideas about how the reactor worked and one of them was the base the square base of it was essentially like a cyclotron which is a small particle accelerator a circular one particle accelerators linear particle accelerators are just a you know long tube essentially and they accelerate particles with high voltage and you know radio frequencies till they reach high speeds but a cyclotron does that in a smaller circular area and there is this very heavy element fuel element 115 something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the

time but it is now it is now yeah when did it become on the periodic table now the way the charts now you know i don't remember do you remember when they 2004 durhamstat germany i think is where they first fabricated four atoms they lasted 220 milliseconds with the atoms it's nothing right and then it later was discovered a couple more times they could fabricate it then they gave it they gave it a place then on the periodic chart after that called it muscovium so they told you about this stuff in 1982 yeah well we

can 82 what what year was this it was 88 and 89 when i was there 82 is one 82 was when you're in los alamos i'm sorry yeah so 88.89 they told you about this stuff so this was not like no they didn't they didn't tell me about it that's one of the things that this group came up with the um um i keep losing my train of thought with this thing so this one area this this element 115 was the fuel yeah it was the fuel um the the world will forgive you for having

a migraine i can i just it's really hard to think throughout this case i just want to say one yeah definitely as i said one thing you know but for the last 30 years people have just been on the attack on bob you know getting to know him the personal effects on his life it's really hard to understand unless you meet his family and his wife i mean this is the last thing he wanted to [ __ ] do was have to talk yeah we should explain that jeremy you and i had this conversation i

watched your documentary we had this conversation and i said i have to talk to him yeah the document there's there's been detractors there's been a bunch of people that called [ __ ] on many of the things that you've said but over time many of the things that you talked about even in the 80s have proven to be true things that people said were not true were proven to be true element 115 was one of them right right right element 115 the fuel they had was stable in other words it didn't decay it wasn't emitting

radioactivity um when they synthesized the two or three atoms of the 115 uh it did decay and it was not a stable element so they're they're kind of two different things but this is kind of typical elements always have or pretty much always have uh stable isotopes and unstable isotopes like i think cesium has like 30 unstable isotopes to it so all right well hydrogen for example you're familiar with hydrogen gas it's stable it's not radioactive but there's also two other types of hydrogen deuterium and tritium and deuterium isn't radioactive it's another stable isotope hydrogen

but tritium is radioactive now they're all hydrogen but they just have a different amounts of neutrons so it's the same thing with other elements n element 115. depending on the amount of neutrons it has designates the isotope but it's 115 they will continue to take or experiment and try and make 115 at different isotopes and i'm sure eventually they'll come up with a stable version but it's the stable version that has the properties that we're talking about so they somehow or another had acquired a stable version did they say that the stable version had come

with this craft it absolutely came with the graft yeah so at the time you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't real what was your reaction to having this stable element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist well everything was impossible right i mean down down to the metal i i did get a chance uh to look inside the craft on only one occasion and this was important because where the reactor sat might have been critical to how it operated since everything operates without any interconnection so

the placement of components might be critical so they allowed me to go inside and and look at it um dude again i forgot where the hell i am so you're going into this craft and what are you thinking when you're inside of it like what are you seeing it's um it's a very ominous feeling because it's there are no at first of all everything is one color it's like a dark pewter color and there are no right angles anywhere it's as if somebody took uh i've said this before somebody took a a model out of

and fashioned it out of wax and then heated it just for a short time so everything melted everything looks like it's fused together everything has a radius of curvature where two uh items meet it's uh it's a really weird looking thing but um uh there was almost nothing other than a small foldable hatchway that that looked recognizable everything was uh was really unworldly depicting it a way to describe it so you you get inside this thing and it's designed for something that's much smaller than a human being yeah you can't really stand up till you

get to the very center of it and how tall are you i'm 5 10. and what do you think this was designed for i'd say something close to half my height wow so these little three foot tallish creatures yeah and the the seats were small too i mean obviously it was made you know for something something small but there's no like there's there's nothing else in there there's just seats the reactor and some of the sub components there's no there's no control panels there's no bathroom there's no no decorative uh components or artwork or anything

that you would recognize or trim i mean it's just a very bare bones thing you're not seeing any screens well there are archways around it that are part of the superstructure and that one of the archways can become transparent when i was in there there was another group working on one of the archways and you could call that a screen more or less so through that archway it would be it would maintain the solidity the the solid whatever metal it was yeah but you could yeah it just became transparent yeah i saw that happen once

or twice before i left did you ask any questions about what the phone no there's no there's no asking questions no but when you watch something become transparent and you realize it's still there but you could now see through it yeah i mean now that's not that impressive we do have some liquid crystal materials that are like that you know they are seen in smart glass yeah they call it smart glass so this is just uh and i don't know if the craft is made of you know an advanced metal or a ceramic it was

cold to the touch so um you know i would lean in more towards the metal you're not allowed to ask questions no the only there they work on the buddy system so i can only exchange ideas and talk to barry now this really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion and ideally you get a bunch of guys together exchange ideas work on problems and that's how things move forward but they're so over the top concerned about security they split everything off and everybody becomes stagnant it it it just destroys any of the

progress you can make or at least makes it go so slow um they i think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that they needed to get this madman with a jet powered honda to come in and see what he could do i think that was an act of desperation i think they wanted someone that thinks out of the box and let's just give this guy a try here because they weren't and uh they might have done this four more times since uh you know up

to the point in time today assuming they're still working on this thing and when you see this craft and you're inside was there any indication that there was an area that they would use to control it to pilot was there a pilot seat was there's there were three seats they sat around uh the reactor was in the dead center of it and then equidistant around there were three seats so and that's all there was a a large you would they're not consoles there are large rectangular objects also spaced equidistant around the center um there's nothing

on them there's no buttons there's no lights and they control the same color everything is the same color different shape right and um directly underneath them there's three levels in the craft uh the main level is what we're talking about directly under that those are the gravity amplifiers the big rectangular objects underneath them are the gravity emitters that look like for lack of a better word a trash can hanging on a pipe three of those and then the top layer i this is just my personal belief i think that has to do with a a

navigation or their version of a computer uh with some planar panels sensor panels around the craft that we would call portholes but they're not portholes they're just black areas and i think that just determines its you know position in space but i was i i physically was in the center section and i stuck my torso in the bottom section and hung upside down so i could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned what is the the roughly the size of this thing it's a i think it i don't remember from being there but um after

all this stuff was over i had uh john andrews a guy from the testers model corporation and you know we sat down and tried to figure out from what i saw um and known sizes of things and we came up with 52 feet in diameter so i think that's really small yeah so i think that's a fair a reasonable guess now you said there's nine of them and you got a brief glimpse at the other ones were they how are they different oh they looked completely different one looked like i called it jello mold and

it it looked like a classic jello mold with the rippled sides to it one was a very flat disc um you know like a oh i don't like a straw hat or something like that that was sitting up on its edge and the thin part of it had looked like a projectile had been fired through the edge of it so i don't know if they were attempting to see if the metal could be penetrated or if something or if that's where the thing came from maybe it was shot down um but that was the only

one where i saw there was you know actual physical damage to it and that one was roughly the same size they're all uh they were kind of too far away to tell and did there was several teams that were working on the propulsion system so there was different teams that were working on these different aircrafts i i don't know i could only assume now when you're sitting in this thing and you're looking at this otherworldly craft your your goal is to try to figure out how this thing functions your goal is to try to figure

out how this reactor i mean but you would imagine they would give you more time than just one day to check that out oh yeah it wasn't one day right yeah i mean this is barry was there i think barry was sleeping there i'm sure they had now that that isn't weird i mean up at the toenap test range where they work on stealth fighters you know you go i think three weeks on one week off and you stay up there too so it's not weird to stay up at the test site right so um

yeah i think he pretty much didn't he acted like he's been up there for a long time yeah um but he's still there yeah who knows do you do you have contact with this guy no oh no i wish i did i kind of thought he was going to come out after i did right and i think i took so much flack and it's so much [ __ ] for what went on i think i actually i wound up helping security there and everybody became afraid of you know doing or saying anything after that so

what kind of reports did you have to give like so you're not making much progress right you're just trying to figure out what this thing is and it seems impossible so well we didn't personally make them i mean we were always there was never a lot of information that we gained um the guy you would call him our supervisor his name was dennis mariani and kind of a military looking guy and he would routinely pop in you know during the day and you know hey what's going on guys and he would essentially relay any information

anything new we came up with i mean he was our go-between you know where we presented him the information then he took it to wherever they were you know assembling all the data from everybody no i assume you're working normal days like an eight-hour day no no no it was really weird that i would be only called in on certain times and certain days and they would be weird hours too most of the time was later in the evening i mean i can get a call at 11 o'clock at night and they'll say you know

it's now 11 o'clock um by 11 45 you need to be at mccarran terminal and um you know we'll let you know when we have more information but what did you do while you were there if you're looking at this object this reactor and you can't figure out what it is or how it works other than the fact that it works on this element that we don't even know about sure i mean the thing was to what you do in you know with anything if you're trying to analyze it all you can do is perform

tests and all we did is try and come up with every kind of test we possibly could i mean we tested you know it it violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate i mean one of the first laws of thermodynamics i mean essentially any machine any device that operates always makes extra heat nothing works at 100 efficient even the headphones you're wearing anything that takes power some of that power is going to be con converted to heat and it's just wasted this didn't i mean we looked at back then we had

infrared cameras they're different today but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down and um and get these infrared images you've seen but it never got no matter what the load was on the reactor it never got above the ambient temperature which is impossible i mean you're you know pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm we tried measuring magnetic fields and there was was nothing there so we started playing around with the emission from the emitters the gravity wave itself and saw what we

could do with it and how it was focused so we really spent all our time just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can control so you were seeing what it could do but you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it no not really i mean we really we really could only use a or come up with a best guess and now i can't say we really that i could absolutely state for certainly or certainty how anything actually worked now how do did you know at all how they were

piloting it because some they were doing some tests where they're having these things fly around in the sky and this is what gets us deeper into your story right um i was out there for uh one test um right in fact i was in with barry in the lab and dennis came in and said uh we're about to run the test why don't you guys come out or i think he said barry why don't you come out here and bring bob with you uh we went out there and the craft was already outside the hangar

and was just preparing to lift off now they were in communication with somebody in the craft so there's a person in the crowd yeah there was certainly a person in there now it's not a comfortable place to be in because it's small so the guy has to be sitting on the floor in the middle uh my best guess and this is the same specific craft that you heard that was because you were that was the only craft that you were the only one that i i touched and worked on um and it it quietly lifted

off the ground which was incredibly impressive to see quietly or silently what's well quietly because it didn't make sense it produced um a little corona discharge from the bottom a corona discharge is kind of a high voltage brush little bluish glow discharge as it was lifting off the ground you can hear a slight hiss sound now as soon as it cleared the ground by about five or ten feet maybe even less than that the hissing stopped and the blue gold disappeared so it lifted off quietly and then it hovered silently if you want to be

specific wow so then what kind of maneuvers was it doing it took uh for that particular time it took off moved a little around around to the left and right and then sat back down the um the craft itself um they communicated with it with a reg because i saw the guy talking in a regular vhf radio to the person in the craft and i even saw the frequency that was on the the frequency counter of the uh communication the transceiver there um but what's weird is he shouldn't be able to communicate with the craft

with a radio the radio the radio wave should bend around the craft i mean it shouldn't be possible every single thing about these the craft and the way they operated didn't make any sense to us i mean that's something we talked about for a while after why should the frequency bend around the craft well you really have to look at the way the gravity wave comes out of the craft there's a the reactors in the center and there's a waveguide that goes up to the top there's actually a small appendage that sticks out at the

top of the craft and it produces a heart-shaped gravitational distortion around the craft now if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk underneath it and look up you actually cannot see the craft the light bends around it your bending gravity bends light it bends radio waves it's um it it shouldn't be possible to communicate with a craft that has an envelope around it that's distorting all forms of energy but they were apparently in contact with it somehow or another through some unexplained way that they don't bother explaining to you so this thing

gets up it just does some very simple maneuvers left right left right goes down um and did they discuss this with you i mean they said they wanted you to see it no they they just wanted no they they didn't discuss anything with me it said it sat down we looked around for a bit and barry said let's go back we went back in the lab all we got to do is see it um fast forward to some months later i did have the test flight schedule of the craft now they had times they had

designated high performance tests this obviously wasn't one that was a high performance test the high performance test went goes above the mountain range and they do much more radical moves with the thing look this is a prized item and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying around to other countries or anything like that they just play with this thing right over the test site but they were doing some radical moves with it and since i had the test flight schedule statistically the amount of traffic and the surrounding areas on

the highway was lowest on wednesdays and that's why dennis told us that all the test flights occurred only on wednesdays because it'd be the least chance that anyone would see what's going on and this was before the the government had expanded the forbidden territory around area 51 and papoose lake and all that stuff right yeah i think that occurred after my story came out then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to look down into there and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back but yeah

that i think all that occurred long after i'm sorry that i came out so you're working there and while you're working there you're under this crazy schedule forgive me for explaining your story but you uh would get these phone calls you would have to go to the to the airport at 11 p.m and your wife started thinking that you were having an affair yeah apparently so um now i did give my permission to have you know as as part of the you know security clearance process um i i gave written permission to have the phones

monitored and things of that sort so they weren't doing any covert stuff they um you know with any queue clearance or which is civilian top secret clearance or military top secret clearance they go talk to friends and you know place places you've been make sure you're not connected to foreign countries but you know monitoring your phone is nothing unusual however they insisted that you know you don't even talk to your loved one to your partner to your wife whatever about what's going on so she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was

being monitored well part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and aren't a maniac but you have to have a stable home life too well she started having an affair with a flight instructor now they were monitoring this on the phone and they knew it and i didn't so they stopped me coming in and their attitude at the time was we need to see how this is going to play out and if lazar is going to get a little weird or anything so let's just you

know hold him off from coming in and you know see what happens and they explain this to you what was happening well after the fact yeah because time kind of went on and there were guys that were following me around and i started getting a little concerned going well ted are they booting me out of the project and if so they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job knowing what i know so as time went on i started getting a little concerned and i took my closest

friends and just kind of got together and i said hey remember that job i told you about this is what's going on and uh like you don't need to take my word for it on wednesday night we need to all go out here i want to show you what's going on so i took everybody and we went out to um remember since i had the test flight schedule and went outside the base out into the desert and so everybody could see you know one of the high performance tests and you know it left quite an

imprint on everybody so they knew i wasn't and there's videos of these tests right yeah but remember this is in the it's in in the dark in the 80s with a big monster-sized camcorder and you got you know a bright light jumping around but uh yeah i mean we did video of it but there's no by today's standards it's but is your video specifically available the video that you took yeah well george knapp has it it's is it i have no idea jeremy yeah i show clips of it in my film it's it's online and

someone did a deep analysis of it uh it was interesting uh to take a look at how well this microphone up to your face about a fist from your face all right um you know to see how his video looks now but as far as video evidence i mean we are talking 80s camp was the most important thing is the human story here everybody that he took up there on three separate occasions they don't all like each other they don't all talk they all agree on one thing they saw something that night at the exact

point in time and space that babazar said and remember this is 17 15 17 miles south of air 51. no one even knew really about air 51 we're talking papoose lake and they all agree they saw something that night they had never seen before and they've never seen since right when he said it so that's one of like the six things where i'm like how did he know you can dismiss him i i tried to dismiss it but some things we can't get around and and there's about five or six of them how did he

know about this if jamie wants to find that video right now what would he look under bob lazar ufo s for area 51 just kind of like that uh so it's like this s4 ufo video bob lazar and a guy does an analysis but you're not analyzing these 80s videos right he from the very beginning bob never said i have proof of my story and i'm going to tell the world he said at the very beginning i cannot prove my story that's not why i'm telling this george knapp convinced him to tell people and he

lived through it and i i didn't believe it either until i i talked with george okay so you you filmed these this test flight one test flight and then you get caught actually it was i think the third time because it we went out there the first time everybody saw it everybody was amazed because it did some radical maneuvers and um you know everybody had a lot of maneuvers that i've seen i've seen the video it doesn't i don't think there's something we have now that does that no in terms of like a human piloted

craft i mean i don't know obviously with the government no it's it's impossible nothing can move like that and remember we didn't start filming from the very beginning you know we were waiting for something you know to happen the craft took off and then came flying at us stopped you know turned it a right angle flew back and then you know after it did some you know amazing stuff to get the camera and then we started filming so it doesn't have all of it on there it just has some the way i describe it to

my friends and they said what does it look like i said take a laser pointer and then have a wall and then move it around the wall like you know how it moves around the wall it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with inertia or physics or it's not impeded in any way by the atmosphere yeah that's what it looks like you're essentially separated from reality as crazy as that sounds with it being in in case it's an own gravitational envelope inertia is not going to affect it and you know this is this

is how some of those recent sightings of commander david fravor i'm sure you've heard of the ufo i mean he describes exactly that the thing operates exactly the way i was describing that's why he was interested to talk to me um but we saw this and you know on the way home it's like hey we got away with it we should try it again the next test flight date so this became a thing to do and i think it was on the third time that we got caught i mean we started becoming a little careless

i think we took a motor home out there you know i mean it was like the stupidest thing you could possibly start tailgating yeah it was ridiculous and um again you're in your 20s yeah and you know what was funny was um we went out there and my friend gene huff and i were leaning on the front of a vehicle and just for some reason we just started talking [ __ ] like uh well i hope they realize that uh i don't remember what we were saying but you know that something about attacking the base

or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that and um then about 20 feet in front of us we see a little green light fall on the ground and roll to us and unbeknownst to us now it's pitch black you can't see your hand in front of your face there were a bunch of guards standing right out there and they had a night vision scope where they were like from here to the wall looking at us listening to us and the guy dropped it and the scope rolled over to us and

you could see the green screen you know we turn the lights on and all these guys are there so it was uh whoa yeah yeah so we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught as we should have because so when they catch you and they bring you in then what happens well i went in for debriefing the following day i went to indian springs air force base which is kind of a defunct base that they used to use at the nuclear test site and this is when they brought out um the transcript of the phone

call with my wife and you know they sat me down and we said you know when we meant to keep the secret we meant you can't tell your friends right you know and it just being sarcastic and trying to mm-hmm um and then they got real serious uh but this is where they you know took the transcript out and were reading me what uh my wife and you know our friend were talking about and uh it was a hard time so what happens from there what do they do with you why don't they arrest you

i don't i don't know i don't know why i'm not sure they exactly they knew what to do but they did let me go that night and i went home and that this is kind of when the most stressful part started because you're realizing you're being monitored yeah now i know not only am i being monitored but now i know i'm in trouble and uh it wasn't a short time after that that i contacted you know at that time the only investigative reporter i had heard of in las vegas was george knapp and um you

know told him some of the story because i had no idea what the hell was going to happen at that point so george knapp tries to dissect your story tries to find holes in it tells it puts it online and makes everybody aware of it and that's how i found out about it yeah to make a long story short what happens yeah to really make a long story short what happens from there on i mean do they contact you and say hey bob it's probably a good idea if you shut up how did they try

to label you as crazy was there there were boy there were a lot of things that happened at you know between that point um i'm leaving out a lot of stuff to fill in the story we'd have to go back to los alamos and and well i really don't want to talk about that the um top secret weapons stuff that you were working on no i'm talking about the 115. um well i don't know i have to think about how i'd what is the problem i don't want to get myself into more trouble by admitting

something so um i just have to dance around a couple he was created just during the filming of the movie people thought the movie's great by the way thanks joe and uh it's on netflix right now if anybody wants to check it out and if you're one of those people like me who um you know i've always loved the idea of ufos i became extremely weary talking to people who are ufo believers and ufo fanatics because there's so many of them that are full of [ __ ] and not just full of [ __ ]

they're they're childishly delirious like the way they talk about things i mean there's so many people that are that i'm in contact they they reach me in the night and they explain to me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong and like you're like okay this is one of the reasons i didn't want to do the show well it's i mean it's no joke we've had people literally camp out on our front lawn and uh you know in some ways i can relate to some of these people you know maybe some of them did

really have some kind of experience or saw something and all their friends think they're crazy but hey now there's this guy i heard on the radio and uh at least he knows i'm not full of [ __ ] so i gotta talk to him and so most of the correspondents i get are people trying to get a hold of me going bob you you gotta listen to me i'm i'm coming to talk to you i'm you know i'm driving from oklahoma or whatever and and and but some of them are just [ __ ] bad

[ __ ] crazy yeah they're frightening there's a lot of schizophrenics that are involved in the conspiracy world so there's a lot of people that have real issues joe it would be a disservice to your audience to not say that we have to look at what's going on now and understand i've heard on your show a bunch of stuff about what's going on now and to not really understand what's going on now you can't see bob's story in the correct light after 30 years and at some point we should just touch upon that um the

the biggest being that things like the tic tac ufo case that came out i've heard people even on the show say oh there's a glitch in the radar that's a data poor perspective you just don't know yet what's really going on commander fravor i was able to get the interview with him to talk with him way before it became public i got that from him he saw it other pilots saw it this is a big thing that's going on right now they had more sightings on the east coast recently cubes with spherical auras these are

not aerodynamic and these are the people we trust to defend us on 911 commander favor protected los angeles and 911. so we trust them but they're not trained observers radar individuals see these things and the big the big one just to throw down so we can consider a story a little differently there's more depth to it the big one is the united states government has admitted that they have been continuously studying the ufo phenomenon that program was called a tip advanced error or sorry was called awsap that that's the mother program george knapp got that

out they they announced through the new york times about a tip but awesome these acronyms asap advanced aerospace weapon systems applications program who cares that was the mother program so they've admitted we didn't stop studying ufos in 1969 with project blue book we don't think it's crazy we actually want to reverse engineer the technology that's why on your other show you said what's this aav thing it's like they're making up another ufo name well hold on there's a reason because in the documents the the dia documents that george knapp released that everybody said was fake

till now they know is real they call them aavs which is advanced aerospace vehicles people are getting the acronyms wrong so the reason for the terminology change is so that we can mimic what we're reading in the dia documents people can look for that now so they changed the names to get people away from ufo or uap even like hillary clinton said on air right so what are you talking about hillary clinton hillary clinton informed the public on jimmy kimmel oh jimmy we don't call them ufos anymore we call them uaps unidentified aerial phenomenon right

so she kind of was giving their the clintons are very into the ufo topic senator reid you know he he's done a lot for the for the subject the study of it right so she informed the public so they could look for the right term so these terms are important because the dia in those documents they've been calling them aavs for quite some time now and they change the name to anomalous no that that's kind of a misnomer so they always mess around with things but it's actually advanced right but when they're describing it in

the news they were calling an anomalous space vehicle totally and that's cool they were also saying anomalous aerospace threats aat right because they want the sense of a threat right so my point is all of if people don't know this now and they think this stuff is is fantasy this this part of it that we're studying it that we take it seriously we're spending money on it and that we're getting great data from from visual pilots to to radar that's why we know it's aerospace they dropped from 80 000 feet but guess what that's the

top scope of the spy 1 radar is 80 000 feet so the radar system they were using it was coming from above that so my point is this if you don't understand that this is happening you're just behind the curve because you don't have the information because of the stigma that you're talking about i saw you get totally upset with the ufo topic i met you first when you're totally upset with the ufo topic it's the people when when when you're doing your i'm sorry man when you're when you're doing your show you know the

joe organ questions everything i could see how how frustrating is trust me i have been frustrated to hell luckily my mentors george knapp and he's taught me the pit bull pitfalls as i went through it my whole point in this rant right here is just that we have to now look at bob's story but knowing the facts not someone saying it's a bird it's a plane it's a glitch they're not and so if you don't know that you just don't have the information yet not just that knowing the facts as we know him in 2019

not in 1988 absolutely and so what has he said that has come true he's totally unimpressed with it right what has he said this come true so i was like bob they've announced gravity as a wave you were right man you're vindicated and he looks at me and he's like well if you think about it jeremy i had like a 50 50 chance he was not very impressed right when did they announce gravity as a wave so they detected in a sense they detected gravity waves who were who was they you might know more there's

two black holes that were colliding and that's how they were able to detect yeah somebody bill i don't know which group it was or what part of the government that's what google's for yeah would it but they um you know built a gigantic gravity wave detector and pretty much detected that there are such things as first observation of gravitational waves it says it was in 2016. okay the first observation of gravitational waves was made on 14th of september 2015 right as announced by the ligo and virgo collaborators on the 11th of february 2016 previously gravitational

waves had only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing of pulsars in binary star systems the waveform connected by both ligo ligo observatories match the predictions of general relativity for gravity for a gravitational wave emanating from the inward sp i'm trying to get this from the inward spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around 36 and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down of the single resulting black hole well that i mean yeah it's not he was in the 80s the predominant theory was gravity is produced by gravitons okay you

know part of theoretic theoretical particles but um they're not they're waves they're not particles and that's so the thought is that the way we experience gravity it's based on mass which is why the moon which is roughly one quarter the size of the earth has one sixth of the earth's gravity so there's some sort of a computation you can make based on mass right and and remember we can observe the effects of gravity but we have no idea what it is all we can do is observe it and we can't make it the only way

you can make gravity is just put more mass together and it's just a product of gravity but if you can make a if you have a machine that makes gravity you can pretty much do anything you can affect time you can have force fields all that stuff that's in science fiction becomes reality if you have a machine that can make gravity and what we worked on in the desert was a machine that makes gravity i love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear reactor to the victorian era i love that that analogy because back

then that was impossible that was magic what you're talking about here the fact that they just discovered this four years ago that this is a wave when we're as much as we know and as impressed as we are as we should be with how much more technologically advanced we are than every other creature on this planet we're still in many ways in the adolescence of technological innovation absolutely absolutely if even adolescence and when you're talking about this binary star system zeta reticuli and who knows how much longer these things have been around than us who

knows what their evolutionary cycle's been who knows what i mean we might be talking about something that's a million years more advanced than us yeah yeah it could easily be now i'm not in believe it or not i'm not into ufos i don't follow stories or you know even after your experiences no i'm fascinated with the technology and i i it really it irks me like every night i go to sleep that you know i don't that it was my own doing essentially that that prevented me from continuing on in the in the project i

mean it's the that to be on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me right but you know by the same token i don't really care that there's aliens or where they come from i mean the prize is the technology and that's what i'm fascinated by but so i don't listen to ufo stories and that sort of thing but george knapp is um i mean he's the guy that has the context and tries to thread everything together and what he recently told me is he found i don't know is either documentation or people

that he spoke to it's at this the existence of this project the project that i was on it's something that they seem to take out every eight or ten years so that's a very specific memo and this is actually i this is the first time i'll be very clear with people about it it's a big topic of conversation right now it's called the wilson memo you can look it up admiral wilson met with a scientist who's actually was featured in one of my films everybody has been debating whether or not this document of a conversation

with a with a sitting admiral at the time is a real document it's an actual conversation that happened and this document is real everybody wants to know the world is going crazy right now in the ufo world i'll tell you straight up right now i'm in the position to know and it is a real document that it is real so the conversation you read in that that conversation was had i can't attest to everything you're not being very clear sure please no problem so there was a document that is circulating right now that is really

big it's going around everywhere people are asking what is this talking about it's called the wilson memo is what how you can find it online the or the wilson leak there it is jimmy's got it the wilson memorandum use of human volunteers no no no no no yeah so uh admiral wilson meets with this scientist and they have this discussion oddly enough at special projects at egng and if i remember the document is from 2001 i'm telling everybody right now it's real and we'll see my history is pretty good with like saying if something's real

or not right so here we go the document comes out they meet at eg special projects in 1989 they stumble into a problem this happens they put the technology away and then they bring it back out and see if material science has caught up and if they can make any progress so this document kind of talks about this process the big thing i get from it and a lot of it's vindicating to bob and one of the things that's vindicating besides the eg g thing is that private industry so this guy's an admiral and he

says i found out about your sap your special access program i need to know about it and he's going to a private part of industry and he is denied access and he says i you know i should be running this program and they were able to deny him access so i think the takeaway here is check it out i'm telling you that that is an actual correct that is a leak now everything said in that document i'm i don't know what are you talking about what what is said in that document specifically it's it's a

between a scientist and an admiral that are sitting and they're having a meeting and they're talking about the the search for the the ufo subject the search to get special access program access to all of these different things like reverse engineering programs so in this document they talk about it uh i believe that this document that the person that went was employed by robert bigelow you know one of the guys that has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff who's the guy owned skinwalker ranch no he's not he was the guy the walker

okay yeah he used to own it there's a new owner and i i interview him for my other film but there's a new owner and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon but uh like it'll just there's there's stuff that you'll be hearing about skinwalker ranching because there's a new owner anyway the whole point of this you know insertion here is just that that document kind of validates a lot of this idea bob just said that they make a little progress then they can't go anywhere they tuck it away and then they bring

it back out you know 10 years later and start working on it what is the limiting factor i think bob should speak on this but it's the material science yeah it's really where physics is so i i can i can see them doing that i mean i didn't have any uh information on that but i think what you know george uncovered is probably accurate that uh you know we try and do what we can and once we reach a roadblock on we really can't figure it out it's just friggin wait put the thing away wait

for science to catch up and you know a decade later let's take the project out again and see all right now where can we go but there's got to be someone who remains informed right oh yeah you've got your scientists like you and barry you got your people that you compartmentalize you got these people working on yeah there has to be some people right that know everything you've got security and then someone's going to be on the outside saying hey we need people to guard this building don't let anybody in for ten years i think

i think a lot of that is private industry and i think that's how they keep it yeah i think that's how they literally because the government is just so leaky i think that's kind of what they're doing that's what the document kind of proves you just articulated that that um it is in control private industry what private industry some aerospace company something i don't know yeah they wouldn't they would the guy with the admiral wouldn't name it in the car right in the conversation right so they still have these things supposedly i would guess i

mean i don't have any information have you ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea of where they got them or how they got them no but um something must have been said to me um from barry and but i i it was just too long ago and i i can't quite remember what was said but it it just left a seat in my mind i think at least one of them was part of an archaeological dig so it's old something one at least one of them is old i don't know if it

was the one i worked on but i remember something to do with an archaeological dig whoa so that's uh that means it's not just old it's ancient that'd be a great stephen spielberg movie yeah right [Laughter] as all of it would yeah that took me out when he said that for the first time yeah that's a freak out right there just a couple of dudes with some brushes looking for a tyrannosaurus rex bone and metal and when did they find it you know that they have nine of them well and how could we have not

heard about that what about the guys with the brushes how could you uncover something like that and joe's newspaper at home does i mean they said it on that first day oh you mean the roswell yeah yeah yeah you told me yeah yeah i have a cover what is this here james it's the document but i had to do some digging to find it yes it's just kind of yeah so this is where they meet at egng and this is admiral wilson and there's a lot more coming out now i want to be clear george

didn't put this out he didn't leak this out to anybody this is i can tell you how i recorded this this conversation so this was an employee of at the time robert bigelow and this is in 2002 right do you remember when he had that government contract called awesap the world all knows about now and he had nids that studied the ranch so that 22 million everybody is saying it was for atip um advanced aerospace threat identification program the 22 million dollars was for ossap that was pushed through through congress three congressmen right an astronaut

it was pushed through and that's what that 22 million dollars by the way they spend more money on viagra every year than they do studying ufos if it was just this program which i think is funny but they probably make a lot more money from fragrance they probably do ufos well you never know how it seeds into population but anyway this program uh this is what was the mother program so it it got the 22 million and really it was to study skinwalker ranch oddly enough that 22 million all was inspired by the phenomenon they

were seeing at skinwalker ranch because the scientists they're seeing vehicles come through like a space in the sky yeah we went there i went through it yeah we interviewed a bunch of people that seemed full of [ __ ] but a couple that didn't but it's very very interesting totally any there's but if you look i spent a lot of time in the area i'm not talking about those stories i'm saying there were scientists hired by the government right through bigelow to study the ranch because they thought it was important and you know whatever whatever

the point is that 22 million was to study that then we have atip which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military settings like commander framers and that sort of thing this document is just one of those things that has now come forward that through the bigelow studies it was government funded and then it was personally funded and then government funded it's just one of those things that kind of shakes you because you got this military guy who can't get access because of the private industry that's holding these non-terrestrial materials that they can't study

it so that's the the claim right now give it some time let people dig more into this it's fascinating man so you are essentially you're you're you're kicked out right you're you're out of the this program you can't work with these crafts anymore and do they give you any threats do they tell you what you have to do from here on out yeah well i mean the way it ended was um i told george knapp all this stuff and um you know he said well let's just get it on tape should something happen at least

we have a record of it and um i don't remember what the emphasis was but um at some point george wanted to air it and he said you know you make the call on it and look if at any point you change your mind we won't air it and it came down to the day where george wants to put her on the five o'clock news he said hey this is important stuff people have to know about it and i thought it was too either it's kind of a crime i know you've got to keep the

technology secret but you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on that we have you know actual hardware from another civilization it's a big [ __ ] deal you know probably the biggest one there ever was and um george said you know today's the day we got to put it on the news or something to that effect and when it came right down to the time to air it i changed my mind and i said we're not doing it and that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and george trying to

get the tape but he won because he was a bigger guy so he actually physically wrestled well i think it was more of a pulling match we were i don't think we ever hit the ground but he got the tape he put it in the player and boom five o'clock news was on and then um i got a call after that and they said it was from dennis he said you have any idea what we're gonna do to you now and he hung up the phone that was the last communication i had with him and

what has happened to you since then after that a lot of people i've known either were audited by the irs people had anybody i know that had clearances that worked in secure programs had the clearances pulled one of them uh friendly one of mine that jeremy knows he's going on camera with me soon he'll tell the story now that he's out of work up there he was working up at the tonopah test range waiting for his clearance to come through and you know they they pulled that it would it became it's like if they can't

get the person that's involved they just create a problem for everybody that surrounds them and so i mean the way it turns out it hurt a lot of people's lives that i was connected to and that's an effective way of shutting someone up did you feel that by coming forward and going public they couldn't just snuff you out that was i mean that's what i was told and george and everybody you know said that you got oh it's you know it's public there's you know no one will touch you and i i you know i

i fell for it um and i i wish you didn't yeah sometimes sometimes when it's just over stress and people are camping on your lawn yeah but it's this is gonna make things worse doing this no this is gonna make things better i was trying to tell them how is this gonna make things better because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going to make people who are not only work in the government people that are police officers and firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists they're going to empathize

emphasize empathize and and empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in your 20s who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with one of the most if not the most important discovery in the history of human beings the big question are we alone it's the number one question there's two questions right what happens when we die and are we alone those are the two big questions right and if we're not alone and someone knows we're not alone and these some people who know we're not alone are these bungling

sort of even if they weren't it's a crime that they're not telling the rest of us but i mean i don't mean bungling in terms they're incompetent i mean they can't be competent it seems to me to what you're describing that no one can be competent with this technology like the victoria victorian era scholars analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor there's there's no way why do you think beyond that why do you think they're not telling us let's just make an assumption that this is true right now why do you think that they're not

telling us that our government doesn't tell us what's your best well let me put it into what would you do if i'm the president okay and i get this information what do i do with this what do i do with this there's something that we don't know there's something we don't understand there's something that came from another world we got it tucked away in the mountains and uh just wanted you guys to know about it hey sleep tight hey american motto's on tonight who do you think's going to win yeah who's going to win america

one is uncertainty and the other one is what bob and i have talked about a lot absolutely not knowing what to tell people because you don't really understand it yourself even though you've got what do you say if you want to run a government you want to get people to pay their taxes but there's something else yeah what do you say so you have these objects fine with impunity right and you that you have something else well not only that what can you say like how much do you really know i think it's mainly the

technology yeah they just want to keep the technology secret because if there's yeah whoever gets this dude yeah you you control the where you become you literally become invincible once you master the technology you can't you cannot penetrate a field like that so imagine that's i know it's all science fiction but science fiction turns into science fact if you have real force fields around aircraft and battleships you you win you win you can force your will upon anybody and uh like i said there's so much more to the story when i was first there um

there were russian scientists at s4 that was this was early on in the project so this was before operation paper clip became public as well right so i would imagine that was i don't know what the date yeah when was that when did was that 98 i think 98 yeah yeah i don't know the dates on it so it's roughly 10 years later operation paperclip becomes freedom of information actually it's about russia not germany he's not a russian scientist yeah but i mean russian scientists a lot of them came from germany a lot of those

those rocket scientists that work with nasa they all came from nazi scientists got it so some russians got some of them i just know that and at some point there was intense cooperation with even exchanging some ideas on nuclear weapons and you know emp tests and stuff things we would never have discussed with them but at the same time it was in the late 80s uh they were involved and actually in the area at s4 with us so you got to communicate with these guys or you saw them no i knew they were there barry

barry would talk about the commies that were there the communities the commies and um that was back when they were the commies and at some point it wasn't our group but at some point there was a big discovery made and this did not happen when i was there it happened in between my trips to there and after that apparently they decided it was just too cool to share with anybody and the russians were never allowed back on the base after that but you don't know what that discovery was no no like i said it wasn't

my group so one of the other groups really found out something but the you know in typical american fashion is all right this is ours you guys get the hell out of here was there any inkling that any other government had something similar no no nothing that i had heard see that was the thing that always freaked me out was why if if something was so superior to human beings it's almost like visiting an ant colony like why would you go to the queen i don't give a [ __ ] who the queen is i'm

a human i'm so superior to ants i don't care who you have running your hive i'm just gonna study it i think it's who got it who got it look at the you know rocket technology in germany but they got nine of them yeah that doesn't make sense to me either so they were either in the same area or you know one had clues to where others were i mean i don't know you you have to fill that in there but you're right i mean nine of them that's a that's a a big dig if

it was archaeological well one of the more recent recent sightings and the these discussions that have been coming out recently from air force pilots and navy pilots they've been talking about things happening in the ocean and that that something go literally goes into the water or something maybe below the surface thinking about water 2004 tic tac nimitz case so that's when george knapp and i broke on the radio twice before the new york times so i know this one really well commander fravor and those pilots there was a disturbance on the surface of the water

commander fravor visually saw what looked like similar to across some object so it's like as if you have some like coral under the water and you've got it's breaking over right the tic tac is doing this crazy maneuver that defies it's a gravity-propelled system they saw it in the sky before they saw in the water right yeah so there was um there were radar that was picking this these things coming down from 80 000 feet dropping to 50 feet in less than a second this is it jamie what is this this is actually on the

news today there was a briefing so a lot of people get this confused not this one then either no so that is called the gimbal so there's three videos released by the pentagon that are all active play and keep the volume off i i would i would really just pay attention to the source video so you've got the tic tac which is this object the commander fravor saw another pilot filmed it with a flir pod and it goes but this one you see is really important to bob's story the gimbal craft it's been recently analyzed

it's fleer not only does it it's definitive that it's not a conventional anything by the by its movements but there's a pocket of cold air around a propulsion source so this object by the way sat stationary for days if not weeks it sat stationary yeah they found it 11 hours later and they were saying there's no way this thing using that kind of energy to go that fast could just hover the amount of time and by the way you're seeing a very small part of what happened that day this object was not alone and so

hopefully that information comes out and we can i mean i wish we had video of it i'm sure we'd all want to see it but that's called the gimbal that was east coast right 2015. west coast 2004 was the tic tac the disturbance on the water commander fraber believes there was something under that water that was causing that disturbance when the tic tac was coming around to doing it with inside the the people that are studying this they're thinking maybe the tic tac system was causing the disturbance but the uso unidentified submerged object that he

visually saw uh the whole interesting thing about that is i would love bob to describe it is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in space air or water why doesn't it matter i love when he talks about this [ __ ] well first of all commander fravor was the f-18 pilot off the nimitz that was sent out to find out what this stuff is but and it wasn't just i got a chance to talk to him recently and it wasn't just a radar image i mean commander fravor had eyes on it for over

five minutes watching this thing as four other pilots did so this wasn't a radar blip or anything i mean these guys were watching this thing but you know one of the things i think in the gimbal video the way the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does and it doesn't fly like a flying saucer with in a 1950s movie it flies belly first i mean it may set down conventionally but it always rotates it does a role maneuver puts its belly towards the target and then moves away

so it's like a car flying with the wheels forward right right i mean it may lift land on the wheels but at some point when it wants to leave flips flips up points the wheels where it wants to go and takes off and the gimbal video you can see the craft do the roll maneuver and uh it's really interesting it behaves exactly like the crafts that i worked on so much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars they probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar principles right but

they all have the same power source they all have the same power source and we're also dealing with if you think about the laws of technological progression you know you think of moore's law and you think of how things accelerate you've got to think that if this civilization is who knows how many years more advanced than we are if not even years i mean i mean we're thinking about in terms of conventional terms right the way the way we look at the world i mean they meet they might be just superior in terms of their

intellect they've got to be maybe maybe we don't know right well the only reason i i say that is because look everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine right and go to an internal combustion engine and then you know electric power nuclear power and go up the ladder that we right come on um you know the binary if the stuff is true about the origin and the binary star system and they have heavier elements that we don't have and this element stable element 115 is a naturally occurring material maybe that's the first thing they

started experimenting with and the version of their steam engine their first product was something that operated like this and actually when they came to earth to look around or you know whatever they were amazed at the stuff we were doing these guys burned stuff and squirted out the back to go forward so right um right you know who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that my my thought was if you went back to the 1400s and then you went from 1400 to 1500 you're not going to see that much of a difference

technologically right if you go from 2000 to 3000 i assume there's going to be a radical change right well the yeah the delta the rate of change is is magnificently higher than it used to be right so if you think about what they had in 1988 and you think about what they probably have in 2019 just logically seems like they would advance i would think so the only question is like are they living is that a living thing in terms of like a biological thing or are they some sort of an artificially created creation like

we are working on right now i mean we're in the middle of working on artificial reality artificial beings sentient beings artificial intelligence there's cons silicon based life forms that they're essentially trying to create boston dynamic or was it boston dynamics of the company robots yeah you can make machines out of flesh right so a cyborg or cybernetic organism is just that you know that's what a lot of people think those like gray things are you know that people call the grays yeah it's like they were like they're machines printed from flash so what you're saying

is like well they could just be no synthetic they don't even need to be you know machines well they seem to have no sex organs the way they're described by people that have had interactions with them assuming these people aren't liars right or crazy or whatever right that they have no sex organs and that they don't seem to have any muscle that is almost like a frame right and they have enormous heads i mean if you look at australopithecus or depictions of you know ancient hominids and then you go to human beings one of the

things you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies well you see a clear progression of evolution too where for something like that i would lean towards a synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task there was no reproductive organs so i mean that almost kind of leaves out any kind of you know physical evolution right well that's also our bottleneck right our bottleneck is our biological imperative the the need to breed emotions fear anxiety all these different things that exist in order to force us into making sure we reproduce i

mean that's essentially there's human reward systems that aren't necessary once they can figure out a way to make some sort of sentient artificial life some sort of thing that doesn't have these biological limitations that we have by the way these craft all these different kinds have been reported because it was confusing i always thought of flying saucers what i heard bob lazar talk about flying saucer right but if you look back in history people have always reported the weirdest shapes like none of them are alike you know there are the saucers but you got cigar

shaped you got you know the top hat shape you have orbs why maybe they're serving different purposes they're doing different things like we'd use different tools and i want to be clear the reason i know that memo is real is because i spent a lot of time with dr edgar mitchell six man to walk on the moon last guy to film him before he died right that's how i know i don't want any journalists thinking i got it from anywhere else i know because of dr mitchell and he said the same thing maybe these things

are performing different tasks you know and that's what i seem if you if you think about what an alien is in terms of our our the sort of iconic image of an alien like the steven spielberg closing cows are the third time the third kind alien they seem like what we'd assume a human being would eventually become right and if these things are tiny human beings are smaller than they've ever been before they're weaker than they've ever been before and there seems to be a trend in that direction and this trend seems to be amplified

by our technological progression there our lack of need for muscle strength and our lack of need for violence and we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have if we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being like marshall mcluhan's uh quote we are the sex organs of the machine world you know that one day okay i'll buy this yeah mcloone was brilliant and that that quote has always been one of my

favorites because okay what are we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating we're constantly looking for faster cars better computers bigger screens faster more resolution more pixels more this more that higher bandwidth 5g 10g right what are we doing we're moving into this in this if you just follow it objectively stay stand back don't attach yourself or your civilization your culture to it and look at what it is we're moving a hundred percent towards technological innovation if you looked at this species from afar and if you weren't a part of it you would say what does

this species do oh they make things they make things better every year beehives are the same [ __ ] thing that you see 10 years ago you go by you see a beehive it's amazing it's cool but they're the same [ __ ] thing they figured out how to do it they make a beehive right we don't do that we make better things what would you constantly and at some point i think that technology is going to fuse with us yes and we're going to become it's already happening yeah elon musk talked about it on

my podcast that we are cyborgs you just carry it in your pocket it's a phone it answers any question you want you can talk to it it'll give you the answers the answers instantaneously it navigates you it has all your phone numbers and it has all your contacts you can get a hold of people people listening to you through it it's connecting us in ways even involuntarily haptics that kind of thing yeah it's also getting on your wrist how many people have eye watches apple watches right and that's only because we can't integrate them yet

but you know that point is 100 yeah i didn't joke about it last night but i have a bit about it that i do about the the integration between humans and technology that's what would you do if you were a hyper intelligence right would you do the work yourself or would you create some cool things called like humans to do it for you would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to come in with machines and do it for you if you're a hyper intelligence that has kind of changed like you've described you'd probably create

workers right well that's a vast conspiracy theory i'm not talking about conspiracy but it is a kind of a conspiracy i'm asking you well i mean i don't think it's necessarily that i mean you could look at it that way but that is the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it the way i would look at it is like there's obviously a progression going on a biological progression there's some sort of an integration with technology there's some sort of imperative this need for technological innovation it's inescapable everyone has it we and i think it's

attached to materialism in some sort of a strange way because so many people work so hard to get new things and like god that seems so illogical and preposterous and it makes people unhappy and depression's on the rise but nobody seems to be able to stop it like why is that well maybe it's because we are the caterpillars that give birth to the butterfly maybe that's what we're doing very well what our job is to do is to make some sort of a cocoon and we don't even know we're doing it while we're doing it

do you think a caterpillar is well hey caterpillar what are you doing man just i'm doing my thing it's my job i have to make a cocoon then become like a body this could be a natural part of evolution it could be that we're just supposed to do this exactly and make the jump to some sort of mechanized right yeah non-biological an orangutan that is uh fishing with a spear no they they've figured out how to fish with spears there's uh there's um primatologists without somebody showing them how to fish no they've imitated human beings

doing it and now they do it but they do it independently they're not trained orangutans they're wild around look at that there's a wild rice okay that's impressive very impressive well there's these primatologists i guess you would call them primatologists that's a term that's a great biologist biologists that believe that monkeys and chimps and some of the great apes are moving into the stone age that they've currently entered the stone age like they're not staying what they were a hundred thousand years ago or five hundred thousand years ago but they're actively using tools and they're

experimenting with different different ways to use those tools and then they're making tools out of stone they're making tools out of sticks and they're they're using them well this might just be what happens this might just be what happens i mean why else why would why the [ __ ] we work so hard i mean i i was i was driving to la this morning um i had a doctor's appointment so i was on the 405 at uh eight in the morning like jesus christ like this is so crazy when you're in the 405 in

l.a at eight o'clock in the morning you see literally a million cars and this is everywhere you go as people but and also i'm in a tesla so i have it on autopilot so i'm there sitting i'm listening to a podcast i barely have my hand on the wheel i'm not touching [ __ ] this car's driving me along i'm not even doing anything i'm just i'm just hanging out it's so much less stressful by the way to do that that way right so it encourages you to innovate it encourages you to embrace this new

technology i got this giant screen it's showing me the navigation in front of me i'll be there five minutes early excellent and i'm listening to a podcast wirelessly it's bluetooth screen streaming from my phone and i pulled that podcast which came out today out of the [ __ ] sky and i'm listening to it and i'm all comfortable in my nice little car just driving on my way to the doctor's office this is irresistible stuff yeah yeah different than your walkman yeah you know that can be irresistible it is a resistance it's frighteningly irresistible but

is it frightening i mean if you were a monkey right if you were um an australiopithecus would you go man i don't want to [ __ ] be a person i live in a house that's [ __ ] i like just swinging around on trees i like uh running from jaguars this is life guys life is running from crocodiles it's not living in a [ __ ] suburban there's probably some that are like that yeah i don't think so i think i think when it comes we're going to embrace it we're going to embrace it

the same way you embrace cell phones the same way embrace television there's going to be a few holdouts i don't even have an email address man those are those there's a few and far between the good luck with that [ __ ] face go move to the woods ted kaczynski yeah i was just going to throw ted's against ted kaczynski was right this is something that i think about sometimes when i get really high that ted kaczynski was a part of the harvard lsd studies this has been proven ted kaczynski they cooked his [ __

] brain when he was at harvard and then when he went over to berkeley and became a professor his goal was to make enough money so that he could implement this program and live in the woods and then write his manifesto and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology he was expunged from the harvard uh logs by the way this is something my friend just called me about so there's like this uh private library and they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university and he was one of a

handful of people that were expunged from it i want to jump back to the one thing joe i want to be very careful with that word conspiracy theorist what i was what i was saying to you was we we terraform our earth right we terraform we change the environment we do all this innovation what is stopping us from thinking that that's not being done i'm not saying it is i'm saying what's stopping us from thinking that that's being done on a much bigger level on a cosmic level you mean like aliens coming down doing that

to humans i'm telling you that there is something here that's there's a fact you know there's something there a craft they're here they're not ours they're here so the question is what is that about and i'm just looking at what we do with what you're describing with technology i think it's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps and we observed that they are now in the stone age that they're observing us and that they're recognizing that there is a pattern that there is uh there's steps that happen i mean carl sagan talked

about the different levels of civilization and that you know if we don't get past certain levels we're never going to reach this i mean we're in type 1 civilization we're going to stay at type zero well we're in this warring polluting yeah pillaging we're awesome civilizations are awesome it's like well we're awesome in a lot of ways you know but in that way we're not well yeah we're we're children that have immense power that we didn't really the other thing is you're using the immense power that other people have created right i mean even when

you're driving a car you're stomping on the gas like whew you didn't invent the [ __ ] engine you didn't invent tires there's all these things that were in involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your [Music] grasp of understanding but yet you have the ability to use it like a person with a gun i'm just gonna bang bang bang people you don't you didn't invent a gun so like you've you've without the intellect to craft and engineer and and and manifest these creations you just have access to them because

you have paper or you have bitcoin or you have whatever the [ __ ] you're using using a credit card now you have almost no responsibility you just you could just flippantly use these things which is why we uh you know we're very childlike in our actions because we haven't had to earn the responsibility we haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have and you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things

and then they've all put them together and then what is the what's the reason to put them together to profit well what's the reason of prop well why are you doing this so you can buy more things what are we doing what are we doing we're making better things that's what we do that's all that's all we do is make better things yeah why the [ __ ] do we need oil why do we need oil why can't we just burn wood and stay home why can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard why

can't we do well we [ __ ] can we certainly can people do do it but we decide to make that almost impossible our preferred way of living is to stuff everyone into a very small area where no one grows anything other than weed this is what la is la is 20 million people with hard surfaces as many hard surfaces as you can boy if you've got an acre backyard in l.a holy [ __ ] look at all that green this is amazing well no that's the [ __ ] earth coming through this weird sort

of creation that we've put on top of the earth but the goal is that like new york city that's there's none of it right you just got you've got central park and they just got human [ __ ] you stacked up no one's growing anything and then constant work everyone's up early go go go innovate progress make that money so you can buy more things and every year hey apple where's this [ __ ] new phone as if your phone isn't good enough yeah like your phone's taking pictures and videos and people are calling you

and you got applications to tell you which way the wind's blowing it's not good enough a blink of an eye blink of an eye it's all gone though that you know like 10 000 years and the hoover dam goes or whatever you know mount rushmore disintegrates so it's amazing because we have created that and and everything's trying to spring up through that we keep it maintenance down but we're we're a blink man something hits but we don't think that way well you know you think in terms of your own life right you think in terms

of what you want and what you need right now you know what it's we are in many ways this combination of this weird primitive ape-like thing with the ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment that makes us wholly unique on top of that with existential angst and and fear so what do you do with that we [ __ ] water it down with the anti-depressants give these [ __ ] people some [ __ ] that keeps them moving they're worried about the future they're trying to figure out what reality is if this

you're on a goddamn convertible spaceship spinning a thousand miles an hour hurling through infinity there's no meaning to this thing just keep making [ __ ] keep making stuff and then one day they're going to be able to hit that switch and this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress and technology and more than likely it's probably going to be what we're seeing that these things are that you're you're observing i'm not observing them but yeah someone's obviously are you implying that they're us i don't think they are us but i

think they are what happens when things keep going it's not us just like we're not monkeys right i'm not a chimp oh that'd be cool they're from here is your idea no no no that this is what happens all over the universe right yeah this is what happened look here's the thing you know i went to see brian cox's um he has this amazing live show with robin ins where they they have these led screens these huge screens with high resolution depictions of the cosmos and one of the most mind-blowing things was he has this

large-scale image of the universe and it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe and it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions and it's [ __ ] incredible but what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it even at you know i mean you're obviously looking at an incredibly small depiction of something that's immensely large like a galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars you're seeing it as this little dot but this little dot that's flying through space surrounded by other little darts with very similarly spaced distances yeah yeah so mike if

we see uniformity in that form in terms of like the distance between galaxy so many galaxies is so it's so similar they might vary slightly and that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years right but but but there's so much uniformity why would we not assume that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere and that all these things that you're seeing that are so similar you do see binary star systems you do see single star systems like star but there's also some some speculation that earth and that our solar system is one time was

a binary star system right i mean that's one of the the speculations about that that object that they find outside the kuiper belt that they think is 10 times larger than earth they think it might have been at one point in time a star but this this uniformity that you see why wouldn't we think that that that has its same implications biologically that there's some sort of a biological uniformity and that this happens given the right sets of circumstances you should tell them some of the stuff that you read that you don't know is true

i mean if the the stuff was true about the propulsion stuff i mean anyway he well what have you read what you saw too and you know what are you talking about spill the beans bob i gotta poke the bear here let's get some more liquor in you the um well i mean the again the the only thing i could verify was what i had my hands on um they were you know there was talk of weapon systems that there were different projects project galileo project sidekick was supposed to be weapon applications of the craft

project looking glass had to do with time any effects of time in the craft now i don't think we're not talking about making a time machine like in science fiction but we're talking about you know small distortions intentional distortions of time and how that can be used you know as a uh not as a well it was part of a weapon program how are you informed in this these again where there's just those small briefings that i read but again i don't really like to talk about those because i don't have any information on them

and it was just you know small briefings but he told commander fravor that what he saw might have been a time dilation well it could be because gravity affects time you know space time i'm sure you've heard of that and um you know what what commander fraber saw as he was in the f-18 approaching it he said that he described it as a ping-pong ball in a cup and shaking it back and forth it was moving that fast now obviously if there's anything inside there it it's going to be battered to hell but you know

my point was was that well one of two things either there's a gravitational envelope in there which negates any inertia effects or you are seeing through a gravity distortion field so you know just like you're looking at a a hot highway and you see you know an optical distortion going through there well the same thing happens in gravity and the craft may not actually be moving like that it may just look like it because you're seeing you can only see it through the field so it may be making much more gentle moves i'm not saying

that's it but it has to be one of the two and the thing shows up 60 miles away they noticed it on radar 60 seconds after left commander favor but it was at his cap point which is the next point he was destined to go to 60 miles away and in 60 seconds on radar the same object ends up there so it's going a mile a second no they i think the radar just picked it up in 60 seconds yeah it could have been there instantly but yeah we don't know the cycle time nobody knows

that that's whole thing oh so it cycles like radar cycles yeah it doesn't it doesn't sweep but i mean it scans yeah it's a planar array so it just you know scans around it at random places that's a spy one does the really cool yeah it doesn't do the whole loop anymore right the point uh the point is though that the craft moved to his next location before he knew where his next location was gonna be jesus and that's i mean that's well documented so that's uh that's a pretty shocking piece of information what's fascinating

to me too is that you were discussing this um the the way this reactor worked and that these things were not really connected no nothing is connected there's no wiring at all that freaks me the [ __ ] out charge your iphone you know yeah one wireless yeah yeah i mean that's the that's a simple electromagnetic yeah i know again but that's just simple electromagnet magnetic induction right but i mean tesla the scientist had this concept of right he wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky and westinghouse was like get the [ __ ]

out of here with that like when anybody could just pull electricity out of this meter yeah they couldn't they couldn't just talk in the car right over and trying to chill him out you know we're talking about tesla and how he you know he couldn't be metered and how it all went down so it's funny bring it up yeah yeah that that i mean who knows what would have happened in terms of innovation had he been allowed to go forward with that well we probably wouldn't have computers you think yeah i'm pretty positive i mean

forget about microelectronics well this is dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic energy in the air and yeah we'd be able to wirelessly turn on our lights but there'd be no radio communication the interference would be something we could would be overwhelming it would induce electric currents in anything with a small wire on it so integrated circuits transistors would be disintegrated before they were even you know tested for operation so it it would it would destroy [ __ ] us up yeah it would have stopped us dead we'd have it'd be great you could turn lighters on

and heaters from all over the place with no wires but it would stop modern electronics and if we became dependent on it it would almost be like our dependence on fossil fuels although it's destructive it's very difficult for us to get off the nipple it would have changed the course of how we developed which is so interesting when you talk about if a civilization another star system didn't even start with fossil fuels they had 115 naturally on their planet and they're like cool anti-gravity is pretty awesome well the fact that i think it's important that

that actually happened yeah it might have been stopped in its tracks for a reason whoa and it's just it's i think it's incredibly difficult for us to imagine technological progression under another timeline other than the one that we've experienced yeah that's difficult if we imagine what this alien race must have been like and i mean god just just to be able to see something take like i mean obviously we've seen it in different life forms right like we see the life of certain beetles in comparison to the life of certain fish very very different existence

very different life cycles octopus yeah octopus yeah i mean we see all these different variables in terms of biological entities on earth but we don't see it in terms of technological innovation as we're the only one that's intelligent that can innovate when we have intelligent creatures but they're in the ocean the only other thing that are like us are dolphins and orcas and whales and they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment and subsequently because they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment we put them in fish tanks and we're like get in

the tank do some tricks right you know the only thing he saw in the craft if we were considering bob's story the only thing that you he saw in the craft that he related to that looked like a human could make was this honeycomb hatch and i always loved that because you're like obsessed with this thing that you could recognize you know the re yeah i i only focus on that because it was the one thing that i understood how it worked what was it and it was it was the access to the level below

and it was um well you know if you take uh you have a six pack of beer and you take out the cardboard dividers set it on the table you can put a lot of pressure on the top but if you push it from the sides it collapses flat so it was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal and you could walk on that in the upper layer but if you took the corner stuck your finger in and pushed it collapsed and made a an entryway so i

thought that was a really unique i'd never seen that before and it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me i said ah we can make that and all that is is a hatchway was there any discussion about the materials that were used to make the craft i'm sure there was but that was a metallurgy division had nothing to do with us so you never got a not even the slightest briefing i don't even know if it was metal or it was ceramic it's i think it there's a fine line

between the two now one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been some sort of an effort to erase your past yeah some sort of a ref uh an effort to erase your education history your employment history at los alamos in fact the only way your employment history was proven at los alamos is someone got a list a directory of the employees from the past and read into it and you were on that list so it proved that you worked there even though people were trying

to deny and they were trying to use that as a way to discredit you that you never did work at los alamos you weren't really a scientist what was what was that like to experience i mean of course we're talking about the 1980s the 1990s when you could get away with something like that yeah obviously there are a lot less uh a lot less records on computers at that time it was still file cabinets and folders but uh yeah that was frightening that was one of the first things i think it's i think george knapp

was the first one that uncovered that i mean he saw my birth certificate disappear he um it disappeared yeah there was no record of you yeah there was there was no record of that there was uh no record his mom tells me about that like it was frightening for her for he's got a real family you know he's a real person it's frightening for her but if the los alamos thing really surprised me and that they were so adamant that no this guy never worked here don't be ridiculous and george went back and forth you

know for i got the letters on the wall yeah months i mean it was ridiculous but fortunately somebody came up with a 1982 phone book directory i mean and also uh originally i told you uh you know when i worked there i was on the front page of the the paper so they were still able to archive you know bring that back from the archives and you know bob lazar a physicist working here at los alamos so there was at least something there but uh somehow george came up with the phone director and then george

then bob took george with cameras into los alamos oh yeah yeah so we flew out there and i said look come on in i'll show you where i worked we'll go in we'll meet people and george went with me and you know i navigate the place oh yeah and you know met people and you know and almost was also the place where they had the machine that was able to read the the size of your digits no no that wasn't awesome that was s4 that was s4 and explain that so now this was back in

the 80s and this is back in the 80s where when you discuss this people like this doesn't even exist yeah okay what was it it was a way you know this is before fingerprint scanners and you know and anything of anything any high resolution scanner at that time so what it was was a device that uh had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it so you could jam your hand in there and there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath and when you put your hand

in there the light would turn on and it would measure the bones in your finger because the light shown through your bones and apparently the length of the bones in your fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure and they use that when you put your hands on there the light would turn on and your badge would pop out there's it right oh there it is that's that's it and i tried to describe this um to people and they said that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard and um i said hey that my

badge came out of that thing i put my hand on it badge popped out and that's how i could open the doors and get into s4 and um you know and everybody discredited that they said it was [ __ ] it was science fiction and jeremy you found this i i found it through a good friend of mine named tyler rogoway and he had some good sources inside of area 52 where they also used these for the stealth program right around that time so now i've got all these people that worked within who you know

said only if you're in certain programs would we use this technology it's kind of [ __ ] actually they didn't keep it for very long beginning of biometrics so i was able to reveal it in my film i kept my mouth shut until i showed it to bob you know the movie is the first time he saw it was how you see it in the documentary that's his genuine reaction i'm getting goosebumps that was a great idea the way you did it thank you man because you know what guess what i'm actually trying to see

if he's telling the truth that's how i started you know that's how i started so it was really cool to see that that you get to see it his actual reaction has that been verified by other people yeah so yeah so to me it has uh personally i get emails every day and people are telling me where these are used and how they're used and send me photos i got a lot of photos of identity mats now well how they were used right they're not how they were used yeah but uh i don't the most

recent one was way more recent than i thought in another country but yeah that technology was used so what's so funny is um that this technology even in the area 52 where they'd use him for tonopah one of the guys who will go on camera with me he will do an interview with me he was a technician for one of these and and he hated them because they were really bad they always broke down and never and he was a technician for him now he won't tell me where if he worked at area 52 so

it's probably tonopah it's very separated even on base but yeah so there was that yeah there is your education record that was also like what happened with that well that disappeared also you know that i i've i've never gone i've never gone anywhere for education i've never gone i never attended any classes at caltech i never attended anything at mit you did attend classes in those places i did attend classes in those places do you know anybody that you went to school with yes i do and have they verified that they went to school with

you well i gave jeremy some names but people yeah i the reason i don't say these names publicly is because every single time i mention a name somebody gets injured they don't want to be of course yeah yeah of course um but what what is that experience like seeing your birth certificate erased seeing your employment well it's frightening it's it's absolutely frightening it's also the fuel that the debunkers use the so-called air quote skeptics i don't like the term skeptics i'm going to say this publicly because i really only said this privately i think it's

a sloppy lazy way to look at things to just be a skeptic i want people to be objective and i think there's a lot of things you should be skeptical of i think you should you should look at things and look at things from a hard-line science perspective you should be subjective but the idea of skeptics the problem with that is you're always looking for things to be [ __ ] yeah and i think that's dangerous because i think some things aren't [ __ ] it's confirmation bias on the other end you're just deciding to

take a square thing and put it around hold no matter what and i find a lot of them to be lazy a lot of them to be lazy thinkers sure because they're always putting it into that box instead of going hmm instead of just separating their ego they're trying they're playing a game and the game is calling [ __ ] i want to call [ __ ] and i'm gonna line up all these reasons why it's [ __ ] and i'm gonna ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition yeah every time i'm thinking

i'm going to catch him in something you know all along this process um i found dr krangle he came forward and said i was in security briefings with bob lazar the physicist at los angeles he went on the record with me now the other people i talked with why won't they go on the record with me because they're still working there so that that's the difference right what is that what can the public have right or even if they're not working there that you know they want to live their lives why i mean obviously people

have seen what's happened to you mike thigpen after 30 years yeah really if you look at all the information on you know concerning my accounts that's that's verifiable it can't possibly be a [ __ ] story anymore it's really way past that point yeah i mean that was my big pin is i mean how could i possibly know uh so mike fig pin was the guy that did the security clearances to go to the bait one of the guys that was this is the guy that you worked with he said he did right and and

george knapp you know george didn't believe him george put him through four polygraph tests right he tried to see man this is a big risk it sounds interesting but let's see if he's telling the truth one of the things was bob said there's a guy named mike thigpen he did security clearances for the base and that's a weird name it's very specific for 30 years george found this guy in this weird department that he didn't even know it was my big pin the guy wouldn't talk to me ghosted him totally ghosting for 30 years used

facebook and google image match through his children i was able to find him after 30 years and i talked to him three times on the phone he lives on the east coast he almost went on camera with me confirmed that he did security clearances for the base in 1989 confirmed he remembers bob lazar and what you don't know is there's a handwritten note that a friend of yours has from mike what i know i'm gonna give it to you later i don't but that is real that is actual so a handwritten note that says what

you know like this is new to me so when the i when you're when they do security client clearances they go through all your friends and they go to your friend's phone yeah yeah so this is too bob and i had people come to me for a friend of mine that's serving and they're doing the security clearance for him and even though i'm like the ufo guy they did you know the fbi come and visit my house and make sure that they talk about my friend and they lift a little card and when my wife

told him to get away because he didn't know who they were they left a little card it's super cute now back then it was a handwritten note and his friend has it for him that you haven't seen in oh my god two decades so if you're listening you're telling me what it is what is this card it's just a little handwritten note with mike thigpen's signature card like like a like a postcard like a piece of paper that he left on the door saying when bob gets back or whatever it says on it so it's

just another little funny thing i found the guy he does the security clearances he admitted to me he did it and he admitted to me he was dodging george knapp because when george said his name on the writ on the on the news he dropped his fork into his steak or into his potatoes or whatever and he's looking at his wife he was in trouble his name's never supposed to be out there like it's just a security clearance guy but you don't want national attention associated with anything bob has to say but anyway this unique

name bob said for 30 years and the guy ghosted george knapp george could prove he existed he actually talked to me man he talked to me three times he almost went on camera with me it's just crazy what what do you what happens after 30 years you just get more info well that's one of the reasons why when you and me and jeremy and george knapp had that conversation on the phone yeah i said i think what we can do with this podcast is important i really do i think it's important for people to hear

this from you in a very clear just very concise way and if you examine all the information that you've said today if you you look at all the things that the detractors have said if you look at all of the new recent evidence that's coming out and all these really high-level people in the military and the government that are discussing this it gives you far more credibility than you would have had in the 19 years when this came out [ __ ] yes you can't ignore his story just because you don't like it anymore that's

why i thought it was important that you come out and refresh the world's memory and let people know and like i said i've been i mean i want to say i'm a fan of yours but i guess i'm a fan of yours as a human being i'm a fan of yours but i've been following you for decades i've been following the story for decades i mean i'm kidding i have vhs tapes bob like a lot of the world has yeah it's crazy well anybody that has any sort of uh a vested interest or a just

a even uh just a fascination with ufos has followed your story because there's no one else there's no one else that comes for this some guy who said i worked underground with the aliens they shot my hand off like there's a bunch of wacky dudes they're underground there's bases they're shooting lasers through the earth's crust and they move them at light speed there's a lot of those guys they seem schizophrenic they seem crazy they might even be disinformation agents they might be people that are designed to muddy the waters which for sure has happened people

are coming forward though now it's amazing by doing this what you're doing you're providing an opportunity for bob to tell a story you know believe it or not he can tell a story it's amazing because more people will come forward now that are involved with these projects they'll come forward to you to me they're coming forward and so what you've done here is provide that opportunity if they need it and it's amazing i just want to say bob just don't come forward no don't come forward to bob why were you freaking nauseous at the beginning

of this like so upset why was your why'd you have a migraine because that started off so hard my god i was sitting here like did this why are you asking him why because obviously anxiety the guy's gone through 30 [ __ ] years of being persecuted i just want to erase his birth certificate i just want to hear what you hear from i want to hear him say i want them why did i have to say that you don't just set it up get it i step out okay settle down yeah well i get

it you were it was hard for you to get them here you know and i was for us yeah you you don't you do what really annoys me are the people that think you know you guys just came up with the story to make a bunch of money or get a bunch of you know attention and that's a good point so please explain that first of all i don't get any money out of this at all and i may i didn't even let you guys buy plane tickets for me to come out here or anything

i mean any time like when jeremy uh pre-previewed i guess the movie up in michigan i mean they it brought in like a couple thousand dollars i made sure that two thousand dollars went to science programs at the local high schools there dirty money i don't want to touch it i don't take any money from this stuff and as far as attention i hate [ __ ] attention i don't like being on shows i just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing so that's i got enough hugs when i

was a kid okay i don't need any attention so now that if if you if you think somehow we came up with this thing then you got to tell me why we did it well you've done a great job of making sure you have your bases covered in that regard that you haven't profited off of this and like you said that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs it's i mean it it doesn't make any sense any other way i mean what you're what i've gotten out of here is what

i thought i was going to get out of here when i watched the documentary that you what you're saying makes sense it doesn't make sense that it's [ __ ] that happened exactly like i said it did joe i believe you um in closing is there anything else you'd like to say no i can't think of anything other than really don't come and try to visit me [Laughter] well um i know that you have paid a huge personal cost to get this information out and i mean maybe you didn't understand what that cost would have

been when you first initially came forward with the story but over the past 30 years it's been immense it's been great and i just want to thank you for that and thank you for all these people that would not have gotten this information and would not have really had this story any other way oh thanks joe thank you and thank you jeremy and one more time the documentary is available on netflix right now yeah it's called bob lazar area 51 and flying saucers all right that's it folks good night [Music] [Applause] [Music]