Garry Nolan on UFOs, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and Eric Weinstein

where I dislike what people like him do is where they diminish the possibility through ridicule cuz that's not science you know I think what that does is it does a disservice to people who come forward with stories because they have a double trauma they have the trauma of having seen something they really don't understand and doesn't fit with their worldview and then they have the trauma of everybody making fun of them and their family uh believing them you know at best it's rude it's just rude it's coarse it's inappropriate it's wrong it's arrogant and conceited

so Neil cut this out just stop it it's wrong you shouldn't do it I would love to host both of you just to have that discussion I don't want to have a conversation with it it's I I I don't I don't want to raise him to my level to be quite honest because it's it's just I'm sorry I just don't think he's of the mental caliber to deal with it and I'm not I'm not here to to give his ideas any further home I'm sorry hello everyone welcome to this very special edition of through conversations

podcast where we explore the truth through conversations with the most brilliant minds and in front of me is no other than Professor Gary Nolan Professor I'm honored to have you here thank you for joining me thank you so much I'm great to be here with you and your audience I'm excited and there'll be thrilled as well to to hear you and to see you because you know the past we were just talking about the past weekend and the past few months and the Whirlwind that we're living through in this reality I actually saw a meme

yesterday that said like hey there were a bunch of aliens together and they were like hey what are you watching now haven't you watched this season of planet Earth it's crazy it's crazy nowadays so maybe they're watching and they're saying like this is just insane but before we get into all of that Professor I know you you're very fond of of Carl Jung and you've read him before and I was wondering how did him how did Carl Jung influence your perspective on life out there UFOs and all of those perspectives into extraterrestrial life well I

think the most well-known of the let's call the memes from Carl Young is the notion of the collective unconscious right this notion that not that there's some sort of psychic power that connects people but that there is a framework that we evolved into that structured our brains in a way that have us looking at the world in a very universally similar Manner and that those underlying archetypes as he called them the archetypes of the collective unconscious those archetypes are so built into the instinctual aspects of how our brains operate that we can communicate with that

underlying basis uh and understanding that I can talk to you without ever having you or I been brought up in the same you know educational system and yet we seem to have a a common framework for how we view the world there are inbuilt archetypes so I I think you know I read a lot of Science Fiction and it made me ask the question would aliens have the same archetypes right I mean obviously if they had their own upbringing and and environment Etc uh and their own cultural differences probably there are different sets of archetypes

but they must be somewhere Universal archetypes that transcend even species boundaries you know and we can look locally at our own varied species around the planet and realize that there are archetypical archetypical uh similarities across species so you know the open question is is it is it similar further Beyond uh to talking about the O the potential of others alleged others um and you know that's kind of the first bit of it um but of course what was fascinating about Yung and and also Freud a little bit was this notion that they're probably that the

the UFO is an archetype um it's an archetype or a container within which we place everything from angels to Devils to uh hope and future possibility um it's a container that I put uh in uh as that inflection point Beyond which Humanity uh can potentially attain uh and not you know walk off a cliff in some sort of cat self-inflicted cataclysm which we seem to be all worried about uh presently that we're about to walk into a buzzsaw and um you know the the the hope of something that survived that to me is a goal

so it seems as though the archetype in in itself Also let's say for example because I I know from from your trajectory and from your experiences you've experienced some sort of extraterrestrial encounter per perhaps two of them in your lifetime and connecting it to the archetypes and the collective Consciousness in that sense your IDE could connect with mine and also maybe you know influence the way I do I I experience or or imagine the possibility of interacting with with aliens or with other species correct yeah well I mean I I just want to you know

set the boundary conditions that I think the field at large needs to um and let's stop calling at alien because alien has implications alien you know is so so wound up with the um the ideas of Hollywood and what an alien means as opposed to non-human right or at least I mean you still have to be careful about future humans coming back do you still call them human um you know or alternative reality humans are they still human um and so just just say uh something that clearly is not present day human um and uh

you know but uh encompassing other intelligences and so as long as we can keep that as the framework and start to institutionalize that into the language that helps um it gets rid of a lot of biases and so you know my thought around what it was that I saw was certainly an instance of an archetype whether it was the you know what I can in retrospect see was uh classic UFO event thing that something that went over my head like 40 50 ft over my head um you know to a 12-year-old boy it was lights

on something that vaguely looked like a saucer in the dark um at the level of the trees going right over me soundlessly in my bedroom it was little men what were they doing in my bedroom you know at the age of seven or eight or however old I was um I'm constantly changing my idea of what how old I must have been based on how old my brother was at the time um and so uh you know I I while neither of those interactions were negative or positive they were mind expanding for a young boy

um to realized that there was something else uh because I was clearly not sleeping in either case uh and so what what was that and so it caused me to question everything for my whole life so let's expand that to Society at large if those kinds of archetypes show up on a regular basis to many people two things one what does it tell us about the human brain structure that it seems to see this stuff so quickly or easily and infer that it is other versus let's say that these alleged observations are real what is

the message that it sends because I don't believe that the things that people see they see necessarily by happen stance I wonder if it is a message you know people often talk about you know and and jod Foster in the movie contact and we've all heard of something called the wow signal right that signal that you see that somehow only radio astronomers are able to pick up you know and we always I mean obvious a good friend but why do people always run to astronomers to get their idea of something why don't you run to

a biologist because or a psychiatrist maybe they should be the first people you talk to not to an astronomer um so but that signal you know SEI sets the bar very low in fact almost insanely uh trivial we're fine with something as long as it's 100,000 light years away you know because I can never prove it I mean it's such a lazy approach if I can never prove it I can I can imagine any sign as being an instance of a technos signature right so it's it's it's actually a coward's approach in my opinion sorry

radio astronomers it's a coward's approach how about you ask the question not is there something here why of you ask the question can there be something here because then if you start running the numbers you find that even a technology CI technological civilization as simple as ours or perhaps a 100 years from ours where we could imagine launching uh just a simple rocket with a sufficiently powered AI that it could be in essence a Von Newman probe even at 10 to 20,000 miles an hour we could populate the entire galaxy with humanlike things Seated on

other planets in a mere 5 billion years right I mean 5 billion years sounds like a lot of time but the likes of Neil degrass Tyson and all the rest ridicule the idea of ET by saying well it they couldn't get here in any reasonable time well toine reasonable I mean the universe is 14 billion years old right so there's plenty of time to get from one side of the galaxy to the other in 5 billion years at Rocket speed 10,000 mph pump that up to 0.1 sea of light and now suddenly you can do

it all in half a million years you could be everywhere so you it doesn't mean that the person who stepped on the ship in the first place or designed it is the one that gets off on the other side but your intellectual grandchildren can be there so once you come to that conclusion that it's possible for something to be here here then you ask the question okay well what's the likelihood that Life Could Happen elsewhere now we've just learned that our most recent common ancestor who's been in the newspapers the last couple of days based

on some paper that just came out uh probably Rose this was already a complicated organism at 600 million years after the formation of the earth so 600 million years from amino acid goo to something that looked like a parami seems like a pretty quick evolution of something so that begs the question of did it originate here or did it originate 5 billion years ago you know uh or elsewhere and get here through some form of pen spermia um actually AI wrote an interesting article or one of his blog posts just recently saying that I mean

and he was touching on this recent common ancestor Point saying that look you you could have given it another billion years of time of development if it had Arisen on Mars because Mars wasn't necessarily A molten you know slag like we were at the time or you could imagine that it happened somewhere else uh and got here via you know uh an ejected Rock from another solar system um and so you know and and and that's sort of imagining it let's call it the old-fashioned way right that it arose and was just primitive and got

here you know with time or you could imagine something happened as many as 8 billion years ago and you know uh Rose to um you know civilizational us and then manage to get here you know perhaps the more sci-fi way um and so it it's funny because I have a lot of these conversations with people and they say well it's arrogant for us to think that we're the only ones and that's lay people that's not another scientist I mean that's just a person on the street who looks at the the stars and realizes the vastness

of space and thinks that and comes to the easy conclusion that to imagine we're the only ones is arrogant at best and statistically you know stupid at worst so put that together with it can be here not that it is here put it did exist somewhere it can get here if it wanted to you come to the near certain conclusion that something is probably here right so that's the kind of logic train that I find disappointingly absent in the people like seti uh Seth Shack Neil degrass Tyson who are perfectly fine to have it elsewhere

because that can that keeps their money train of $50 million hundred million billion doll satellites in business how about spending a fraction of that on looking at the wow signal that civilizations might have been encountering or observing for the last several thousand years in the skies above us that's the wow signal which Loops back to Young and that you know you have the possibility that other cultures don't necessarily have to intervene and land as the you know the saviors and the Messiahs of human development their signal could just be look you can get here too

if you just apply your mind to it but we're not going to show up and hand you the keys to the castle you have to learn and interestingly that's a lot of how religions actually operate God doesn't show up and give he gives you a set of rules he doesn't give you a set of answers the rules are just just there as a framework the answers are for you to figure out yourself you don't tell your children uh everything you let you you let them burn their hands on the stove a few times first wow

there's a ton there Professor a ton so many so many questions and so many insights that that emerge and I just don't want to don't want to bdge your ideas I do have to make a question here or a comment and you mention for example I've hosted Professor ABI loev and I posted Neil degrass Tyson and you mentioned both of them you also mentioned that there could be a possibility that these nonhuman entities um are already here or could be already here have the possibility of of being here teasing us with those signals that we

could ALS so go there not necessarily you know like you say we're maybe not the center of attention they're doing their own thing out there and so I know that Abby works with you at the soul Foundation um I know that you defer with the ideas of Neil deg grass Tyson but if you could have you know if right now talking about God feelings you know because I believe your God feelings are very synced and very you know they have the pulse into all the the statistics and possibilities and probabilities so are are these nonhuman

entities us in the future or Multiverse like where where right now is your mindset in terms of those things and how how would Abby and Professor the Tyson react on those ideas if I root my answer purely in physics we understand today my answer would be if they're here they're here because of Von Newman possibilities right that they evolved elsewhere they set up basically time capsules that they sent around the Galaxy that landed made more copies went elsewhere they landed when they did they you know they're either AI that makes something that they can interact

with locally you they create avatars of some sort um uh or I mean that that's the easiest and safest for me to imagine um the next level imagining is uh you know somebody who's figured out how to get at least close to light speed so that they can take advantage of time dilation you know and they can get on and they can get on the bus on one side and get off on the other and you know through either hibernation or something like that they they're still the same thing when they got there less likely

more towards the you know the Fantastical because we can't imagine what that technology is yet you know even Ram Scoops and other things you know if you're traveling at close to light Spade you know a hydrogen atom will rip through your ship at that speed there's a great video somewhere of what would happen if a hydrogen atom were traveling at the speed of light and were to hit Earth it's pretty interesting I didn't even realize the amount of energy uh that a simple hydrogen moving at that speed could accomplish um so you know if you're

a ship traveling at light speed you have to worry about those hydrogen atoms um so you know that more moves into the realm of where someone like Neil degrass Tyson would be right that it's you know it's you're starting to technologies that we don't have yet um you know once you start getting into future humans and you know interdimensional humans or Multiverse humans or Multiverse intelligences I mean that's just another level Beyond you know it's it's imagining technologies that we can't even imagine how to make so I'd rather not go there um I'm perfectly fine

if it's true but I just don't know how to get there and so you know so that in those circumstances I'd be more likely to credit Neil degrass Tyson with saying well come on you know you know where where I dislike what people like him do is where they diminish the possibility through ridicule because that's not science you know I think what that does is it does a disservice to people who come forward with stories because they have a double trauma they have the trauma of having seen something they really don't understand and doesn't fit

with their worldview and then they have the trauma of everybody making fun of them and their family not believing them right um and so that's just you know at best it's rude it's just rude it's coarse it's inappropriate it's wrong it's arrogant and conceited so Neil cut this out just stop it it's wrong you shouldn't do it you wouldn't want anybody making fun of your ideas like I do on a regular basis these days but that's just quidd proquo right it's like you don't want somebody doing that to you so don't do it to other

people especially people who are not as conversent in the science as you are I am AI is both of us are far more accomplished than the likes of him he's a TV personality stop believing people like that stop putting them on the TV shows just because they're below viting you know uh nonsense spewers sorry you you have to categorize this for people so that they understand that a person like that is not a scientist they're just not they're a TV personality so you shouldn't be going to them so media Representatives who are looking for somebody

to speak to that shouldn't be the person you go to stop being lazy use your brain find other people who actually can talk about this intelligently and actually have a track record wow sorry sorry you just got to draw a line in the sand about this stuff I mean who has the time right who has the time you know and that's what the soul Foundation is and what obious Foundation are meant to be yeah we are setting up a perimeter uh about how it is that you professionally and academically talk about this subject matter so

that you can invite people in who might be willing to talk about it but are afraid of the bullies like Neil degrass Tyson and that guy Dr NY whatever ever his name is the science guy you know are afraid of the bullies and what the bullies do because the bullies are more priests than they are scientists in today's world it is becoming increasingly difficult to access truthful nuanced and wide ranging perspectives in terms of the truth we consume and the information we consume it is increasingly difficult to know what's truth and what's propaganda tangle news

is an independent nonpartisan politics newsletter they summarize the best arguments from across the political Spectrum on the news of the day and I've hosted the founder of tangle news Isaac sa for a conversation on how they engage with their own pieces of information how they challenge their own ideas and how does Isaac himself evaluate what's truth and what's not truth and what to share with their audience I've always found this newsletter the most balanced and also the most truthful in terms of understanding the political environment we live in and the implications of it for our

society I recommend you to take a look at it with a link in the notes below and also you can reach out to me or you can reach out to the team so we can put you in contact with tangle and they can help you set out your account with that I'm proud to be partnered with tangle to share that with you I I I I see your point and I do you know when I when I spoke with him about these topics as well there was those hints of like uh it took away the

spark and the possibility and the because also this like you say you said previously these topics also ignite the imagination and ignite of what you could be like the wow signal like you said it's just hey we are we're out here use your imagination use your mind and I do see your point and on the other hand just trying to maybe find a me ground here do you think that even though he's a media personality just categorizing it that way do you think he sparked enough scientific interests in a way that more people are he

might have been his early career but of late you know people will make the argument that you need someone like that out there I don't need a bully right I I need an intelligent conversant on the other side I'm happy to have a debate but I want a debate not based on somebody saying well you know if you got taken AB aboard a craft why didn't you bring back an alien alien asra well because maybe the aliens have figured out that smoking is not a good idea Neil you know I mean I mean it's just

like that's just such a stupid thing to say and he said it multiple times as far as I remember or at least I've seen him quoted that way multiple times so it's just it's just and I'm I'm using him as a as an archetype of a kind of thought process that uh has infected the media and cultural discussion at large that just needs to be stomped out because isn't it fun to talk about ideas and and and limiting ideas limits creativity and limits possibility and so it's always the data off the curve that leads to

a um at least a discovery I mean I can't imagine a no prize that didn't get there because it was obvious right I mean it it wasn't obvious right it got there because somebody had the strength of will to realize that they were right and was willing to spend the time creating they don't you don't get Nobel prizes by learning how to stop stuff by learning how to stop ideas um and so if you're in the business of keeping everything the same then you try to stop stuff you try to stop ideas if you're in

the business of evolving you're constantly creating new ideas and I'm in the business of evolving you know this these quests that that you run professor and and these you know working at you work at the soul Foundation they're really trying to answer the big questions of the universe and also so in a way trying to answer who who we are as a species and and what we can be like like we've discussed there's also a philosophical component to it you know about the conceptions of who we are and and what's out there and so how

can we because we're touching about on on trying to find the the ideas and exploring the ideas but at the same time not falling into the cliff for of of ridiculousness and also you know in today's world at least my generation you can you can bet most of their information is being consumed through Tik Tok and Instagram and so how can we find that balance of intrigue of interest of philosophical questions also what what kind of questions Professor would you like to be answered in terms of of philosophical realm and spiritual realm if we get

to those those qu answers of of who's out there but at the same time keep it scientifical and keep it you know professional if if I'm exping myself correctly yeah no I understand I mean let's just keep it at you know at the science level at the beginning you know are there are there common Frameworks for math does math work the same from their point of view as it does for ours right um you know here's a for instance a friend of mine um Works in or worked until very recently in the CIA and his

day job was reverse engineering Soviet technology he planned and created the programs that would go in and uh obtain uh our adversaries technology um he would plan the missions that would go and obtain the stuff out of the Soviet Union and bring it back or spy it out um and even he said um sometimes we would get technology that we didn't understand from the Soviets that were built on novel principles that the Russians had developed and so we had to start with the function and work backwards towards the math that explained it right so it

isn't obvious what you have in your hands just because you have it in your hands it could be based on mathematical principles that you haven't formulated in your culture so but having understood them eventually oh by the way he said that they probably only were able to reverse engineer of the Soviet materials at the time about 60 or 70% the rest were they just couldn't figure them out our best scientists probably if they spoke to the Russians you know in a free and open manner they'd be able to say hey how did you do this

well oh that's really cool that's an interesting way to apply tensor analysis you know to the problem so and Obi talks about this too but it's it's you know so there's this there is this notion that there are other ways of viewing things different kinds of maths or understandings about how the universe operates maybe they have figured out how gravitation and Quantum work together because here's a way to formulate the math um and so that's where I see you know let's say the beginnings of a discussion because I think at least the universality of science

uh is the beginning of that of that discussion and you can have it as and if but but if we can't even understand each other's science where it can be reduced to numbers imagine trying to interpret each other's morals or what the Ten Commandments are for each other I mean I had the this discussion with um a Vatican reporter um just a few weeks ago I said you know do the Ten Commandments apply to aliens does the first commandment apply Thou shalt not kill is an alien fair game if you kill one can you be

tried for murder open question the Vatican reporter couldn't answer it you know I mean you need in that case a council of individuals who are studied in these matters you know um you know we we can't even agree that humans are the only conscious animal on this planet you know and that's the whole vegan versus animal rights versus you know food rights uh argument that's been raging for the last 50 to 100 years um so there's one you know a fun one that I put on Twitter a couple of years ago or a year and

a half ago was can you patent alien technology it's probably the most viral you know participatory uh tweet I ever did lawyers were coming in who had nothing to zero interest in UAP but it was a it was a it was a thought game that stimulated other people to come in and go hm well let's see ba one of the basic tenants of patents is that you can't invent something that's already been invented so if an alien invented it can you patent it right well one one lawyer argued I mean more than two two lawyers

in a room with more than one opinion is a lawsuit right so one lawyer came in and said well no yes you can patent it because human law only applies to humans right another person said yes you can patent stuff because if you really don't know what the function is but you understand a principle if you discern if you discern a principle from the technology that isn't necessarily the function of the technology then you can patent it because you invented something that you didn't even know was invented before right so you know there's been arguments

made you know in books and conspiracies theories that fiber optics came from the Roswell craft I I don't know if that's true or not but somebody said that they found these wiring things and they figured out that if they shown light in one end light came out the other and that was how fiber optics was invented I don't know that that's true all right but you could let's say that that was true the purpose of the fiber optic might have been something completely different than what we use it for it's a side interest right so

you know I can send a cell phone back to the Neanderthals or promagnum man and they figure out how to make glass because they can see this screen and they figured out that the glass might be made of silicon or sand right so they they understand that there's something hard that you can look through that's not a cell phone but that's a principle that you learned from the cell phone and so there were the lawyers who were saying that this might you know the way to use you know that's how you could patent something so

again that's that's part of what the soul Foundation is meant to do is to provide this thinking space within which people can come and have a fair and logical discussion uh and try not to put on too many tin foil hats uh and just say hey look what if you know but but it's more than that it's what are the implications of the possibility that there might be something here right that how would you prepare for an eventuality that this is the case what you know if it turns out tomorrow that the government says blah

here it is they're here you know if you haven't prepared Society for that and you haven't prepared the gears of commercial reality for that you know if if you come out tomorrow and say there is such a thing as free energy there is such a thing as anti-gravity stock markets around the world would crash right so what are the Preparatory steps that humans should be creating for those kinds of Black Swan moments and it's not that it needs to come from Aliens it might be that tomorrow somebody does create a form of energy that is

cheap and free and non polluting so what have you done to prepare for this because that's what supposedly we're spending all our taxpayer dollars to do rather than spending $900 million on the defense budget it's all about dropping bombs on people and killing them or whatever you know maybe a fraction of that could go towards preparing against eventualities I'm not saying shut off the defense department I'm saying maybe the money should be spent a little bit more you know targeted uh you know way that um you know prepares for it and so you know in

it in its small way the soul Foundation is um you know we're writing white papers on this kind of stuff we've got like four or five of them out now we've got other ones that are coming out where it's just getting into the into the academic literature these ideas um I mean there Papers written about ET and you know what might be the the possibilities the Rand Corporation has put out stuff decades ago um you know uh I don't think there are that many new ideas that need that need to be created I think just

encapsulating them in a paper which is referenceable by others is how academics works so that when you come up with an idea you don't have to give the history of everything that happened in your paper you can reference the idea and for the and say that look this has a basis if not in fact at least in theory uh that's already there so you know so you create this train of logic um you I worked for a uh in the laboratory of a Nobel Prize winner David Baltimore at MIT for my post-doctoral work um for

two and a half three years and um I remember a conversation I had with him at one point which was kind of a very much a learning moment for me where I said you know I hear in lab meeting all the time people were using the word correlation that this correlates with that and this correlates with that and I said what what what's the strength and the power in that word that I hear all the time he he kind of looked at me and kind of like oh here we go got to raise this one

up too um and uh but he said he said Gary a fact in isolation is phenomena if you can relate a phenomena to something else through correlation if not causation then what you've done is you've linked it to the history of prior knowledge otherwise it's just a fact in space sitting by itself with no context whatsoever so correlation is about contextualizing an idea with a backdrop of historical ideas and and history of human knowledge and so that's really why for instance peer review is important because it create it takes a phenomena that is by any

other person's view uh you know an an unproven fact and it says look here's the methods I used to analyze this here's the data so that you can now look at my data and my methods and to say okay well at least the data is real or the data was was um was Faithfully produced um I might not agree with your assumptions about why you did the experiment I might not agree with the conclusions that you tentatively come to but at least I agree that the data was correctly created and I think people make the

mistake thinking that peer review is about about agreement uh that the that the conclusion is real you know yes that might be how peer review is often used but it you know that the people the papers that get accepted are because you know you somehow are comporting with mainstream understanding but that's not the city on the hill uh High minded approach about how peer review is supposed to be used and so um at least that's not my idea um so coming back to UAP um the the idea is to create um a cottage industry of

scientists now who have in their own respective science Realms they create their own local permission structure to be able to talk about this in and to teach others and and the Soul Foundation alone I mean I just the number of emails I now get from academics saying you know first first thank you very much for you know this blah blah um helping us get this uh this commentary started but I've been thinking about this for a long time you know meaning that they were there and they're sort of the you know as jacqu valet would

call it they're the invisible College they're the people they're the Invisibles amongst the invisible College the invisible College are the people who are least openly talking about it behind the scenes there's there are those who don't even know that they had colleagues out there willing to talk to and one of the things that we found actually at the Saul Foundation Symposium with a number of people who come up to me and said I didn't even know there were this many professional people involved you know there were 10 other professors at Stanford there from Stanford at

this amongst 300 you know and a bunch of grad students uh and so that was heartening to know that you've you know and it gets back to that trauma issue that people now know that they're not alone and that you know and that's a bigger question are we alone in the universe but they're they know that they're not alone at least in hean society willing to think about this there's you know Eric Weinstein he we we discussed him right before we started recording and he just appeared on on Pierce Morgan show and and he mentioned

that he also drilled down on on Neil degrass Tyson but his specific was he was critical of the peerreview process he said that on on his terms and maybe we can connect it with our conversation now is that like you said before science for for many people becomes a religion science with a capital S you know and and they are The Gatekeepers the the P review is kind of like their own Ten Commandments and so here my maybe my concern Professor is can we solve these big questions these these big challenges and and can we

truly explore those possibilities of uaps of of non-human entities of free energy of of understanding what gravity is through a peerreview process where it might be corrupted in a sense you know it might be no I I mean Eric and I are good friends um and um I agree with them 100% that what peer review has become is corrupted uh it is the um it's the tyranny of the average uh and you know I remember being asked once by the NIH to you know design a $50 million program for doing some biology I said great

okay good um I I need the following three people and we'll do it you know and and they were like they were horrified oh no no no no no it has to be 50 people we have to have blah blah blah blah blah I'm like I'm out of here that's it I don't need 50 people you know and I'm just arog AR an okay I'm arrogant I'm conceited and I know that I know that I'm right you know uh most of the time but I only need three other people who are as smart as me

to tell me I'm wrong I don't need a room full of people who you know who are who are all going to basically pound the idea into you know into nothing into no creativity so so I agree with that that peer review has become the worst of our imaginings uh and so but because of that though science has reacted you now have these archive servers where ideas before peer review get put on the archive servers right that no they don't have the same status as a peer review but the idea is now out there and

at least the minimal requirement for a an archive paper is that you know the the methods and Analysis and the data are available um and so I think that's societ that's scientists frustrated scientists to answer to at least in part the the tyranny of of peer review um uh and what it's become uh so you know I think that's one way to to do it yeah I mean there's there's also the open source movement um which of course is probably best exemplified in uh in programming and computer language open source really uh drives progress so

much faster where everybody's checking and counter-checking um each other I mean that's relatively easy to do with software it's harder to do experimentally because you know often the experiment can take a year so your feedback loop is not few hours your feedback loop is you know a year at least in biology in physics probably even longer um so you know I I I think that that to me is how you know these ideas of energy or or ich real or whatever you want we want to call them um you can explore them you know scientifically

you can maybe set some perimeters with math you can bring in the philosophers and the social scientists to study and think about the implications of what the math means right um and uh and then you and you go from there you know but it's interesting I mean religions have been dealing with extra dimensions and non-human intelligences for centuries you know alien you know angels and demons you know the spirits of the forest the the Jin of the Quran you know etc etc etc where's heaven in hell it's another dimension are heaven and hell even in

the same Dimension are they different places altogether I mean religions struggle with these ideas but human mind can already Encompass the possibility that they exist and have done so since the most primitive of men that's amazing to me that that also blows my mind as well that I was just discussing with my one of my best friends that maybe science in its way and and the way we're doing modern science right now will just confirm those those questions those answers that they were discussing thousands of years before I mean I come up with all kinds

of let's say good ideas in my science and then I go into the literature and I go holy this was somebody else thought of this 50 years ago I'm not so smart after all yeah that's the collective Consciousness in a way as well yeah well people often say that ideas are in the air and once enough it's kind of like um Evolution that once there was enough complexity the raw material is already already there and it just finds its way it finds its way to come together no matter you know you're just a catalyst you're

not the initiating event yeah and that that in itself also this is a huge other conversation in itself but the power of thought even though it comes into the you know non-science conversation it's energy in itself you know my brain is Computing so we don't really know how to to track that Professor but I have one question for you regarding you know we always think about day one right of of meeting these non non entities of meeting non-human entities that what happens day one you know like you said the stock market crashes everything goes Havoc

maybe we won't have a presidential election you know all just the reality just drastically drastically changes and you also hinted previously on how should we prepare for for an encounter or how or a confirmation because I I know this is a a topic that you you also grasp on because in terms of governmental information why if they have it already why haven't they disclosed it but let's say that day two comes how do you envision humans really engaging with with this new reality and also how do you think we should change or how we would

change pragmatically I I think day two is let's call it a more sober reflection on the matter um and the hysterics are gone um I think day two the majority of the world goes back to living its life and wondering about where its food comes from where who's going to put you know dinner on the table oh it's tomorrow I have to take the trash out um you know I think that's day two because for most people it will mean nothing it will mean nothing you know I mean the people that it matters to are

the are the ones who look to take advantage of it right so I don't mean that in a negative sense I mean that in a positive sense that okay there's something here what's in it for me what's in it for the country what's in it for my family what's in it for the planet so that's the conversation and so actually it ends up looping right back what humans have been dealing with every day for all of reality is how do I invest in potential right and um and that means okay if there's a technology that

we can take advantage of can I convince them to give it to me do do any of our monetary consequences mean anything to them I'll give you a trillion dollars all right yeah well if we do the conversion rate you know from our point of view it's a point of a it's one tenth of a penny your many means nothing to us so you know what what's the currency of the discussion um and so uh I mean that's the first thing you have to ask and so I think at at best we have nothing to

give them nothing and so you know what's in it for them then to give us anything other than Good Will and the hope that there is Goodwill right and so I think that that's kind of where you have to start this discussion um and I think then at best we take advantage only by mimicry by seeing what it is that they can do if they can show us what they can do maybe we can figure out how they do it knowing that somebody can move faster than light if that's let's say something that they have

or saying that they have some way to negate gravity just the most extreme examples um tells any good scientist okay well it's possible okay so if I could get a piece of one of their craft let's say maybe I can find the principle within there that that leads to the technology revolutions that eventually allow me to do it as well one day you know I mean um flight manned flight was invented at least on paper as far back as Michelangelo on paper you know it took the right brothers and others another few hundred years to

actually practical IE it but that was all based on the notion going back literally hundreds thousands of years to Icarus and you know I'm going to build uh I'm going to put feathers on my arms you know and Patch together with wax and I'm going to fly towards you know into the air until I get too close to the Sun and know that was it me he dies right so I think we have a lot of dying between now and when we eventually let's say replicate what they have the ability maybe to do allegedly to

do because I know tomorrow after or the day after this thing comes out I'll be you know in a daily mail in England you know saying Stanford professor says you know no I never said that I speculated it but I know it makes a nice clickable headline I'm GNA have to to to resist myself in in you know the the headline because with all what happened with with you mention with a grass tyon it's going to be that's that's uh that's a whole I would love to host both of you just to have that discussion

I don't want to have a conversation with him it's I I I don't I don't want to raise him to my level to be quite honest because it's it's just I'm sorry I just don't think he's of the mental caliber to deal with it and I'm not I'm not here to to give his ideas any further home I'm sorry you're making it even even more difficult Professor well you can take it out then if you want no I'm I'm joking he I mean the listen I heard you and and it made me reflect on you

know because I I do admire some of his ideas but I also see your your perspective on it and and how he should stick to his good ideas not the ideas that are bullying he should stick to what he's good at and actually transmitting science not his biases right yeah and you know before I I got into that tangent Professor I I also uh had a an additional question I know we have bit short of of of time I've maybe a couple questions I'll say a few more minutes don't worry perfect um you you were

mentioning on you know the possibility of of us getting that technology in some form we we're speculating one of my concerns that I shared with Professor abilo was in our conversation was that that you know with how's the how the world is right now and I don't mean the world the are I mean ourselves I mean how we are treating each other the bullying that you're just mentioning the wars that are constantly increasing the political Spectrum the ideologies my concern with Professor L was that should we develop technology enough powerful enough for us to be

able to quote unquote colonize other planets and to be Interstellar like should are we a plus in the in the universe and yeah I understand are are we are we ready is really the question um and if there are let's say Elders already present do they want frankly someone like us you know ruining the neighborhood right you know I mean I call us the angry Apes um and you know we're we're literally maybe 5,000 years out of the caves and mud Huts so you know if there's somebody else who's been around a million years 10

million years you know you've got these barbarians you know running around doing stuff that we don't want them doing and so maybe there's good reason why they don't let us know things that we shouldn't know because it's like giving a 5-year-old a flamethrower and so you just don't want them doing it and so and again it's it's not like it's not like you can land and teach somebody civilization you have to acculturate them through these you know intellectual levels and maybe our brain structures just not there yet you know we're aggressive you know I I

think about the The bonabo Chimps the on the ones that basically you know when they're in Conflict they have sex to diffuse the situation you know those are The bonabo Chimps as opposed to The Chimps that we know when they're in Conflict they kill each other you know I mean they you know and so you know maybe the Bonos should have won right but no the you know the intellectual grandfathers of us and humans are really the same as the aggressive chimps um and so maybe it takes a different brain structure uh to and maybe

we need to go through I mean Evolution takes a long time maybe we need to to go through a fall or two I mean when I mean fall I mean a civilizational collapse or two to get to the point where we realize that we can't let aggression be or not that we make a decision it's just that the only things that end up Surviving after a few Falls are those that have learned other means by which to cooperate that don't involve you know forc labor camps right and so you know people it's interesting people can

look back in time and we can see the rise and fall of civilizations over the last 50,000 years and we see frankly the lack of progress and the lack of difference from those 50,000 years but now but humans have a very hard time seeing into a future where can in that future we change or what opportunities happen in that future you know just watching the movie Dune again last night I love that movie the second one um you know it's the year 10,921 yeah and it seems so far away and yet we talk about Egyptians

and others 10,000 years ago as if as if it was yesterday 10,000 years ago 10,000 years from now today we'll be there yesterday it will happen no matter what we do 50,000 100,000 a million years will happen yeah and so you know if you're a 100 million year old civilization already letting the human stew another million years is well within your capacity to wait doesn't have to be you don't have to have an outcome today if you 100 million years old already think about that it's mind-blowing yeah they have a different you can imagine they

could have a different time frame a different level of patience different agendas maybe they don't even have morals like maybe they don't have morals yeah I mean you know again alien even if you want to use that term alien means alien alien means I don't understand it that concept is alien to me right I mean that's just kind of the common parlament use of the word and so you know trying to fit them into the human mindset of expectation ations and exploitation and use Etc you know maybe they're just philosophers who like sitting at the

bottom of the ocean thinking about stuff yeah maybe maybe they themselves don't find us interesting that's what Professor also said like that's I would be surpris do you find you know the rees's monkeys which are relatively PR you know primitive on The evolutionary scale to us do you find them really interesting only in so far as they do things that are like us you know when the when they when the Reese's monkey you know takes a you know candy and or plays some sort of a a mind game with its owner that's when we find

it interesting that that myself what's that no that that in itself I mean I see I see your point that also it's this is not against science in a way don't get me wrong Professor but I feel that also we've kind of lost that awe in life and I feel that this why this conversation why why this topic on non-humans and and going to space and everything at least for me and for for people who who have listened previously what it does it just Sparks the possibility again and and removing that that conversation of you

you know last when's the last time we saw like a rainbow right now we know what's a rainbow scientifically speaking so it doesn't provide that awe again of life and I think that in itself this conversation why it Sparks so much interest maybe not the in the best way like we've discussed during this conversation as well is that it provides that glimpse of of again like being in love in a way like romanticizing also of life if if I'm explaining myself yeah no it is no I use I use a similar metaphor it's um you

know you always want to be on the horizon of ideas where you can fill the answer to the idea with your own fantasies right once it becomes concrete it's less interesting to people I mean I know it's less interesting to me if once I understand something I'm like okay I understand it what's next and so I look for then what's next and then I fill it with my fantasies of what it might be but I have the let's say the opportunity as a scientist in some cases to test my fantasies right and practical eyesee them

I mean I'm always interested in opportunity I hate to see opportunity lost so when I see an idea the first thing I think of is how can I use this to help people right I mean that's what my whole career has been has been oh I came up with this cool idea now I can do this what can I do with it for people not what can I do with it to study more it's what can I do with it to help people you know I mean I've I've now had cancer 15 times I mean

you know just ridiculous I mean turns out we got me sequenced I have a mutation that predisposes me to cancer I'm just you it's just my life I mean luckily always caught early and removed surgically um but see these are life These are deadly cancers they're not just like pimples um and so you know even though I knew I had this bit of a problem we only now know the reason well think we know the reason why this Gene particular Gene um it's like I have a reason for doing the cancer research I do because

it actually is personal but but you know we all have family members and Friends who've had it you know uh and so how do I practical eyesee my knowledge and ability to enable other people to be able to do this because otherwise just putting on a library shelf and hoping somebody else takes advantage of it it's like well why should I wait for somebody else to do something if I know how to do it myself so you know that's that that's how I often think and realiz not everybody is built that way that's just me

um and uh so I just I I feel though that we are in a moment in time where as yours talking about historically and otherwise where we have so much opportunity and yet we're so busy fighting with each other over pennies or a you know a few square miles of land um that that how we let our emotions and our historical baggage uh keep us primitive is beyond me you know but you but you have to look again evolutionarily at how we got here um you know when you had two tribes competing for limited resources

the aggressive tribe won the aggressive tribe likely had a psychotic leader and so what did you do you selected for psychosis in leaders now we look around at society and everywhere we look I see a psychotic leader you know and even doesn't matter which side of the political Spectrum you're on you know they are megalomaniacs and not interested in the common good they're interested in their own aggrandisement so what do I look forward to our own form of non-human intelligence I hope artificial intelligence comes along and cleans it all up for us I will vote

for the first artificial intelligent president the moment they're on the ballot that was one of my questions for for my my community I I made a poll like who would you vote for first or who will win an election first a few people voted an AI machine yeah and there's you know that in itself Professor is another conversation because we also have to remove our own biases from the AI to for it to be truly truly capable of solving it and you know I do and I mean it I mean this in the best way

I feel like you're creating those ideas and you're distilling them for for all of us in in in a way that it's not patronizing it's for the good of the people and it's just these hurdles that we need to pass in humanity we have to do them because the questions that we're asking in this conversation and the topics that we're discussing finding out life out there or realizing that it's already here solving those questions I don't think we we will be able to do so if we're fighting for a few miles of of of territory

that's my concern as well yeah no it's not and that's I see that as lost opportunity and so and and maybe you know maybe ET or nhi sees us frankly at least now as a lost cause that we're the Lost opportunity and you know we we think of life as rare and valuable maybe it's not and so if it's not and if it's a dime a dozen why should they care what we do maybe it's up to us and so that's kind of the warning is I'm not waiting for them to show up and give

us the answers and save us from ourselves I think the only answer as I alluded to earlier at the beginning is seeing that someone can make it gives me hope that we at least have maybe a chance if we haven't gone too far down a road of Destruction let's let's hope we we're not there but we conversations like this one Professor with you I hope to host you again truly it's been I I will have to relisten to this a couple more times because it was a master class at least for me and I bet

that for my for our listeners will be as well and hope to to be in touch again Professor I truly appreciate your time and I apologize to to Dr uh Neil degrass Tyson uh you're just a convenient um sounding board uh I hope you uh hope you take it for what it was you know the purpose thank you Professor thank you for joining me okay bye-bye