History, genocide and Israel’s war on Gaza: Mehdi Hasan & Benny Morris | Head to Head

Israel will fight until we destroy hamas's military capabilities end its rule in Gaza and bring all our host's home since hamas's attack on October the 7th Israel has been laying waste to the Gaza strp tens of thousands killed and the Israeli government now accused of committing genocide but what can the history of the conflict tell us about how we got here my guest tonight is the famous provocative Israeli historian Benny Morris his work once documented many of the crimes committed by Israel in 1948 but his critics say he now justifies those crimes I'm Mary Hassen

and I'm here in London's legendary free speech Society Conway Hall to go head-to-head with Benny Morris I'll challenge him on his support for the war on Gaza and ask him why he thinks accusations of genocide are [Music] absurd tonight I'll be joined by our panel of experts Daniel Levy a former Israeli Peace negotiator and president of the US Middle East project Dianna Buu the Palestinian lawyer and former adviser to the PLO and Emanuel naan an Israeli lecturer of diplomatic studies at Tel Aviv University [Applause] Benny Morris thank you for joining me on head-to-head you are

a supporter a defender of Israel's current war in Gaza which began in its current form after the atrocities on October the 7th and which has since killed uh more than 38,000 Palestinians including 15,000 children uh displaced more than a million people made Gaza uninhabitable per the UN and is being investigated as a possible genocide at the international court of justice a lot of people around the world think it's a genocide I happen to think it's a genocide but you have called that accusation absurd why well I once investigated a real genocide by Muslim Turks against

the Christian communities of turkey around the year 1900 some 2 million Christians were killed at the time by Muslim Turks um and that's what a genocide actually looks like what's happening in Gaza is a war it's a war in which there are a lot of collateral um deaths among gazin the war started of course by the Kamas from Gaza in a giant Massacre um on October 7th and the only way to um respond to that and any country would have responded to that more or less in the same fashion I think was to try and

go after the Hamas but the Hamas was embedded in the population as you know used the schools the the unra schools the um hospitals as bases as places where they stocked their ammunition their guns themselves hid in tunnels underneath these schools in apartment buildings and this all involved collateral damage which of course the Hamas knew it was going to ignite by killing 1200 Israelis on the 7th of October I myself have problems with the war as it's being waged but um genocide it definitely isn't the aim here is not to kill as many Palestinians that's

not the definition of genocide you wrote a book on genocide that's not the definition of genocide it's one of the definitions try and kill it's not based on numbers the definition based on intent and on numbers it's based on the intent yes to destroy to kill in whole or in part there's no intent here that's as as I'm not I'm not I just want to just I'm not no I'm not a government spokesman you seem to be presenting me as a government spokes how I present you in a govern I asked you for your view

on I asked you for your view on the wall I didn't say anything we'll come to the government I'm just asking about your view right now the definition of genocide you wrote a book on it is nothing to do with how many people you kill so it's not a numbers game it's also a numbers game the ICC Chief prosecutor has asked for arrest warrants not just for Hamas leaders but for the Israeli Prime Minister and the defense minister for war crimes and crimes against humanity and he says he has mountains of evidence we've all seen

with our own eyes the Israelis in Gaza commit war crimes on camera kill unarmed people who are carrying White Flags blow up apartment buildings drop 2,000 bombs on crowded refugee camps can we at least agree Benny even if we're going to agree on genocide that Israel has committed numerous war crimes since the Hamas war crimes on October the 7th I'm fairly sure there have been war crimes but the war itself is not a war crime as the Hamas attack on Israel on the 7th of October was it was a war crime from beginning to end

the aim was to kill as many civilians as possible which they did in accordance with the Hamas Charter which is to kill basically every Jew you can get hold of in Palestine but I didn't ask about the aim I asked about the acts that being committed as I said probably there have been as in all wars war crimes you accept there've been war crimes yes so you would support an arrest warrant for Benjamin nety I didn't say that why firstly there hasn't been an arrest War I know there's been a request from the IC prosecutor

so far they haven't issued it I don't know if you can hold a prime minister responsible if a sergeant kills several unarmed people intentionally you don't think the Israeli Air Force bombing apartment buildings refugee camps mosks cemeteries hospitals schools universities librar firstly it hasn't bombed as far as I know hospitals they have attacked as literally no literally no no expert agrees with you on that that's not that's not true what you're saying is not true the only Hospital which I remember being bombed was by a rocket fired by the Islamic Jihad by mistake that's as

far as I remember Israel has raided hospitals let Israel let let me let me talk Israel has raided hospitals but with infantry let me ask you found Hamas people in there Hamas headquarters inside hospitals under Hospital actually we've never seen the headquarters that Benjamin put a beautiful Bond movie video out for we've never actually seen that from underneath Al shifer it's been several months we're still waiting for that so on the 31st of October according to Human Rights Watch Israel Israeli forces unlawfully attacked a six-story residential building killing 106 civilians including 54 children without warning

four strikes completely demolished Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a military Target in the vicinity making the strike unlawful indiscriminate under the isra authorities have provided no justification for the attack the Hamas always hides their own even the Israelis didn't say that they were hiding in the apartment building I I don't you said you don't want to be a spokesman for the government you're offering a better defense of the government than the government is I I don't know I don't know the particulars of that particular attack it could be that there was a war

crime committed there it could also be that there were hundreds of Hamas fighters in the building alongside alongside it could be you the you have you ever seen footage wait have you ever seen footage coming out of the Gaza script which shows a Hamas fighter dead have you ever seen that all you see is civilians because they're hiding they're hiding I'm not a Palestinian journalist I'm a foreign journalist and guess what we're not allowed in by the Israelis they are hiding their casual so let me ask you this question so then I agree we should

allow people in do you agree with me I agree with you let me tell you something about the Israeli Air Force if we're talking about this each mission of the Israeli Air Force and it's probably the most most accurate and um efficient arm of the Israeli military is checked beforehand by a lawyer Etc to see if if there actual um is there evidence there actual evidence of I'm so glad you're pointing this out because it's not a rogue operation it goes all the way up so we can indict Netanyahu for these attacks because it's gone

up the chain of command it's not a rogue Sergeant it's not a rogue Sergeant we agree all right you say it's not genocide can we at least agree that it's genocidal rhetoric and genocidal intent from various members of the Israeli government we agree that the rhetoric from Netanyahu and Herzog and smotrich it's this is genocidal rhetoric some of the ministers I'm not sure about herzog's quotes and I'm not sure about what Netanyahu said but some of said Amal Benny you know what I don't know if that's the same as genocide but killing every man woman

and child and the donkeys you listen there's something there's something really there's something absurd about this line of questioning if Israel was intent on genocide if let me talk hold on can you let him speak would you let me talk can you let can you let him speak yes guys guys guys we are going to have to stop the entire show and you will all have to go home if we do not have some order the Benny please finish your point if there was a genocidal intent in the war making in Gaza there would be

not 30,000 or incidentally the numbers are all issued by Hamas we don't know how true how true they are but if there was genocidal intent by the Israeli government with the Israeli military machine to commit genocide in Gaza there would not be 30,000 or 20,000 gazan dead there would be hundreds of thousands of gazan dead I'm sure that's I'm sure that is called that is called genocide and that's not what's happening in G we've already discussed that's not the definition of genocide but okay let me ask this that's not your definition the 1948 genocide Convention

of different forget it forget the 1948 there are lots of definitions that's not true there's only one there's only one it's the 1948 genocide convention that sounds dogmatic there's only one there's only one truth the Hamas truth sound the same is the 1948 genocide convention a Hamas Charter are they is everything Hamas Benny if there's a genocidal side in this battle it is the Hamas let me ask this just look at its Charter read the words there reads what it says about what they intend to do to the Jews that's what is I've interviewed people

from Hamas and I've asked them about the charter I'm interviewing you right now and I want tell you it's a nice document I'm sure they do Israeli Minister called Aid dict a member of the security cabinet he said we're now rolling out the Gaza NABA he was referring to the NABA the catastrophe of 1948 when an estimated 700,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes you famously documented a lot of that back in the 80s you undermined a lot of Israeli propaganda that said they just fle fled on their own so whether it's the 1948 NABA

or the 2024 Gaza NABA to quote AVID dicta for Palestinians Zionism is NABA it is ethnic cleansing surely you of all people can recognize that I'm not sure I can recognize that no yeah you keep putting words in my mouth zionism's intent was to establish a Jewish state in the area called Palestine of the land of Israel um initially the zionists wanted to establish a Jewish State on the whole land of Israel or all of Palestine 1937 1938 Zionism changed and said we can't have all of the land there are lots of Palestinians here let's

share it with the Palestinians in 1937 the British appeal commission proposed the partition of Palestine between the two peoples living in it the Palestinians said no and continued their war against Britain and the zionists the Zionist said yes to the partition proposal um by Peele the International Community repeated the idea of the partition of Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs in 19 1947 November the famous resolution 181 the Jews said yes to the UN partition resolution of 1947 accepting it they would get some of Palestine the Palestinian Arabs would get the other part and

the Palestinians said no and started shooting the next day killing Jews so this is one of the reasons I wanted to interview you because cuz I know some of the history you do know some of the history and you said they all sh but the problem is I don't know which Benny Morris I'm speaking to because you're saying they all wanted to share the land and yet I have a book here that says on the most basic level Jewish colonization meant expropriation and displacement Zionist ideology in practice were necessarily and elementally expansionist Zionism was a

colonizing and expansionist ideology that's rightous victim by Benny Morris and I you can respond I'm glad that the audience is cheering things I've written because you because you were right in 2001 wondering about what happened to I agree with every word in there but as I said Zionism changed its objective and goal in the 1930s and agreed reluctantly um resigned to the idea of partitioning the land and from that point on the zionists a number of times in 3747 the year 2008 proposed partitioning Palestine with the Palestinians and the Palestinians consistently have rejected partition under

the Hamas Palestinians and under the PLO fat as well let me ask you this that's the truth the basic truth of the conflict Zionist many let me ask a question zist willing to compromise and the Palestinians always say no yes go ahead I want to read a quote out to you yes you keep saying lots of positive stuff today sharing dividing I want to read a quote to you there are circumstances in history yes that justify ethnic cleansing yes that is not a quote from Slobodan mosovich that is not a quote from a Rwandan Genocide

your quote and a lot of your critics say you no longer you no longer just document ethnic cleansing you apologize for as well what the context of what I quote what you the context is the context is you're asked you condemn what they did in 1948 Zionist militias you say no you're asked they perpetrated ethnic cleansing you say there are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing what was the circumstance I'm talking about you say I know that this term is I'm reading your quote I know that this term is completely negative but when the

choices between EIC cleansing and genocide the annihilation of your people I prefer ethnic cleansing so the Jews understood in 48 the Jews were under threat of Annihilation by the Arabs and that in my view a legitimized Justified cleansing Arabs from Palestine the Jews the Jews were threatened with death by a second genocide after the na genocide the hootus said exactly the same thing about the to in 1994 they were talking about the zionists no they said we can ethnically cleanse and kill these people because they're threatening us everybody who's ever done bad things says we're

doing it defensively right say threatening I said the Arabs of Palestine attacked the Jewish community in Palestine from 1947 on that doesn't J they joined they you can't justify a war crime a crime against humanity ethnic cleansing is not regarded as a war crime by any a so you're fine with it it's not a matter of fine it's not a happy we're not I prefer ethnic cleansing of the other to being massacred a my my own people yes sure even if that involves innocent people being driven from their homes and not allow come back yes

if you if you on how does that fit theist wanted to share the land because of course the Zionist wanted no you're you're mixing you're mixing up the the the times the chronology the zionists were willing to share the land the Arabs said no the Arabs attacked them and from that point on the Jews to defend themselves properly they would have to drive out Arabs from certain areas from which the Arabs were attacking the Jewish so it was it was a pragmatic thing in the heat of War it wasn't ideological it was pragmatic even though

you yourself say that transfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism your words it depends it depends what you mean by transfer a transfer depends what you mean by transfer you're the one using the euphemism it depends no no no it depends what part of the population we're talking about total transfer was never any part of Zionist partial transfer partial transfer from areas in which the Jews wanted to establish their state in part of Palestine and from which the Arabs were busy attacking the Jews okay I want to bring in the panel before I do uh

a lot of talk about whether Zionism is a form of colonialism if I said to you Zionism is something Colonial what would you say to that I would say there's some partial truth in it but in on large it's wrong it's not a correct interpretation those are the H's words he wrote a letter to Cil rhods the founder of rodesia in Zimbabwe he said it's something Colonial okay so maybe you should take it up with found I can't take it up with Herzel Herzel may have said said that in order to ingratiate no no in

in in in an effort to ingratiate himself with the great colonizer roads it's possible that's not the point the point is this understand you don't allow me to finish sentence no you do Contin continuously interrupt trying to do what Trump did to Biden wow I've never been compared to Trump before that's the first in order but please but you've actually eaten up more time saying that so please finish sentences Zionism intended to liberate the Jews from the um alienation and oppression in under which they lived in a Eastern Europe also later Central Europe by establishing

a state of the Jews with the majority of Jews with Jews ruling over themselves they ended up they ended up in in part realizing that dream dream at the expense of Palestinians this is correct this is what happened as it turned out we'll end on a point of agreement bring in our panel uh we have Diana a Palestinian lawyer in Israel former adviser to the PLO Emanuel naon is an international relations Lector at Tel Aviv University Daniel Levy is a former Israeli Peace negotiator president of the US Middle East peace project Diana I'm interested in

hearing what you have to say about genocide because we started the show talk about genocide Benny very adamantly says it's absurd there's many definitions you're a lawyer what do you make of that look Benny is exactly what I expect him to be which is a genocide denier and a genocide apologist every human rights organization has been defining this as as a genocide we have the icj that has come out and said that there's plausible case for genocide and yet we're to believe the Israelis the only people who say that it isn't a genocide Israel is

allowed to be a colonizer Israel is allowed uh to do what it pleases and that Palestinians just have to sit by idly and take it and this is the fundamental problem with Zionism but we Palestinians are the ones who feel Zionism on our bodies we paid for it with our lives we paid for it with our land this attempt to redefine Zionism will go nowhere because you know and the world I'm going bring all the panel it's a colonial all right emuel you teach international relations in Israel is there a recognition there that a lot

of the world world governments allies of Israel as well as the usual human rights groups are very critical at a minimum of the way that Israel has prosecuted what's going on in Gaza well first of all Di said we are feeling Zionism you're right you're feeling it because the only place in the Middle East where Arabs are free is Israel and so the freedom that you have Diana is because the only country in the Middle East where there is freedom is the state of Israel from which you benefit and you should be thankful for it

I I'm not Greatful because the only the only country the only country in the Middle East where Arabs can elect their officials be elected be judges at the Supreme Court be president of a university the only free country in the Middle East is Israel Dan do you want to respond to that I find it staggering that the gentleman to my right is telling the Palestinian citizen of Israel how she is experiencing the reality under which she lives it's it's a staggering moment for me now you know there were different strands to Zionism okay there was

a cultural Zionism there was a bational Zionism this could have gone in different directions from the perspective of 2024 75 plus years in the idea that this is just something benign doesn't match with the reality that has been lived now I would say it's clear what this has meant for Palestinians but I would argue it's not doing what was written on the tin for Jews either I don't think either Israeli Jewish or Global Jewish safety is best served by the actions we see day in day out in Gaza would you like to respond to what

you've heard from the panel please I I think there's a misunderstanding here there is a separation between Israel and the West Bank Israel and the occupied territory largely populated by the Palestinians and the state of Israel in Israel itself there is a rule of law there is generally equality between the Jews and the Arabs and you're misrepresenting it when you say that they are persecuted and he's damn right in what he says all the Arab states are dictatorships which do not allow their citizens any freedom and Israeli Arabs enjoy most of the rights they may

be discriminated against in certain things but they may may enjoy certain rights which Jews do not have for instance not serving three years wasting three years in the Army for example Israeli Arabs don't do that it's fine Palestinians are desperate to serve in the Israeli military right I'm sure I'm sure you're right for leing should be in pre-1967 Zionism in Israel it was not a colonial Enterprise in the West Bank there is a colonizing and Colonial framework which is even AP partid like in its actual workings but in pre-1967 Israel that was not the case

and for the first 100 years or so of Zionism it wasn't a colonial Venture it a venture of an extension of an imperial let me just Define colonialism Since you're so busy defining genocide imperialism and colonialism were matched together in which a imperial Empire sent its children to dominate and take over a third world country and exploit its riches and its people this is not what Israel did until 1967 Emanuel do you agree with Benny that there is a colonial aspect and a par aspect to the occupied West Bank no um Zionism is a National

Liberation movement that freed its land from Arab Muslim colonialism how do you think Islam expanded itself from the Arab peninsula to Indonesia from Indonesia to Morocco not from the holy spirit this was conquest and colonialism okay we are out of time and I'm going to give di the last word before we go take a break okay so now we have a neba denier and a neba apolog as well as a genocide denier side apologist the point of the matter is is that Palestinians have always paid the price for Israel's Colonial Adventures my family hailes for

hundreds of years from Palestine and what happened in for 1948 was my family was ethnically cleansed from Palestine where from fromel never able to return back to their to their home my father died unable to return back to his village because of the colonialism that is called Zionism there is no place for Zionism we are way over on time Daniel 30 seconds you want to come in what's remarkable to me is we've gone from denying the knba and Benny moris actually helped get past that to threatening a second nakba and that's the narrative in Israel

today without going through what's most necessary which is acknowledging and healing and redressing and Palestinians actually getting their rights because without that not only will Palestinians never see peace and security and the achievement of freedom but Jewish is Israelis will always live in the knowledge that that wrong will create a blowback and there's no security that is it for part one of head-to-head with our special guest Benny Morris in part two uh we'll be talking about what is happening inside of Israeli Society we'll be talking a bit more about Benny Morris's views and we'll hear

from our I was going to say patient audience at Conway Hall but they're not so patient tonight that's in part two of head dead welcome back to head-to-head on Al jazer English I'm with my guest Benny Morris one of Israel's most famous historians we have a panel of experts and we have a live audience here in London's Conway Hall who we will be hearing from shortly Benny Morris in part one of the show we argued you and I about genocide about ethnic cleansing about the NABA can we start part two Benny by agree ing both

of us on something that Israel has seen in recent years a pretty serious severe Brazen shift to the right some would say far right uh with the likes of bazal smotrich and itma benir in the cabinet uh a lot of fanatical settlers inciting violence in the occupied West Bank According to some polls 60% of Israeli Jews say it's better for there to be segregation between the two societies 48% according to one poll a few years ago supported the expulsion of Palestinian citizens of Israel what is going on in Israel Israel is turned definitely to the

right it's partly to do with demography more religious people are born more than secular people I would say also unfortunately more spari people are born than ashkanazi secular people I would say that in addition to the demographic shift which has taken place in the last 20 30 40 years um continuous Arab terrorism and Arab reluctance to reach a compromise has also driven Israelis to the right uh you've also been critical of the far right in Israel as we just heard you say very critical you've called Netanyahu cowardly and incompetent but you yourself have been criticized

by some on the left both in Israel and abroad for your own views and I just want to get through some of them with you because you've said what many would say are racist things about Palestinians Arabs Muslims uh you've called them barbarians you've said they have no moral inhibitions uh you've said they ought to be caged you've said Palestinian citizens of Israel are a time bomb a fifth column emary of the enemy I got the g i but the audience need to hear it um you say you're a liberal and you believe in the

peace process a lot of Palestinians would say how do we make peace with people who say they're liberal zionists and they think of us in this way it's quite a question of quoting out of context which you are indulging in those who blew up buses and um restaurants in Israel during the second intifa I'm talking about both Hamas and fat terrorists um I called barbarians and and they behaved and I did no no I called them barbarians and they behaved like barbarians you didn't call no I didn't you did actually 2004 in haret you said

the Arab world as it is today is Barbarian that's true the Arab world I didn't say all Arabs are barbarians I said the Arab world is Barbarian in its Behavior have a look at Syria where the regime killed about half a million people in its Civil War trying to suppress an uprising look at Sudan where the Arabs are busy killing a blacks in darur look at Libya where they are killing each other they throw bombs at funeral cages look at Iraq they behave like barbarians if somebody said to you and I would say this is

anti-Semitic if somebody said to you the Jews are barbarians the Jewish world is Barbarian I think you would agree that's anti-semitic and if somebody said well I'm not being antisemitic because I'm just talking about the IDF I don't think it would be anti-semitic it would be false that's the point you don't think it would be anti-semitic for me to say the Jewish world is Barbarian it would be false not not NE neily anti-semitic and when you say the Israeli Arabs are a time bomb they are a potential fifth column that's all of them you didn't

say some terrorists I said Israel Israel's Arab um minority which identifies in large measure with the Palestinian cause is in the long historical perspective a potential Time Bomb yes I would agree with that you said there are potential fifth column or a potential fifth column yes an Emy of the enemy that is among us this is I I don't remember the using the word enemy what whether you remember it or not is irrelevant you said it the slide is their slide into complete palestin isation has made them an emissary of the enemy that is Among

Us dur during the second in when there were riots by Israeli Arabs blocking of Roads Etc um they behaved like an emissary of the enemy this is correct it depends on context you keep quoting things without explaining the context I'm not sure there is any context for dismissing an entire people as a fifth column nobody is okay go ahead all right let's talk about some other views of yours which are somewhat controversial many you would say you're not just somebody who said some you don't actually want any facts from me or any any explanations of

anything you just you just explained yourself very well you said you just want to accuse I'm not accusing actually it's not an accusation it's a fact this isn't really an interview this is basically I'm able to defend My Views but you come up with these quotations which are out of context don't explain the historical context the audience doesn't understand what you're talking about I just read the entire quote to you I read the entire the word racist which you used at the beginning when you introduced this you said yeah you said when okay this here's

something else you said you said we're talking about murder in Far larger numbers it's not a matter of money referring to Palestinians in Israel it's the society's nature yes I would say that's a racist comment to say an entire soci Mur during the second this was said in 2019 Benny not in the second in that's not my fault if you can't remember when you said things in 2019 you said this is not about this is we're talking about murder it's the society's nature you could the murder of who the murder rates in Israel you said

Arabs have higher murder explain to the audience what we're talking about I'm sorry to break it you that's not that doesn't get you out of it you said it's the societ let me explain let me explain what was going on um the murder rates by Israeli Arabs of their fellow people basically not of Jews but of fellow Arabs is much much higher it's about 100 or 200% higher than the murder rate among Jews the same applies incidentally the killing of women the same applies to honor honor M murders which are called their honor killings when

a woman shows too much leg or looks at a man the wrong way this is unfortunately inherent in Arab Societies in general in the Middle East and among Israeli Arabs as well that's the context R my my problem is there's no context for making sweeping stat you know that's true let me ask you this racist let me ask you true or not you are racist will bring racist is it bring racist is it I want to ask one racist forget the word racist you actually just made a racist com you said I will let respond

in a moment let you can't tell me that you don't want heckling from the audience and engage when we're talking you can't have it both ways so I'm talking to you we'll come to the audience okay oneing one last you can do what you like one last question it's it's a free country as they say U let me ask you this it's not just the racism that you've been accused have you also been accused of War Monger you just recently wrote a haret column in June where you said Israel should consider nuking Iran to prevent

them from acquiring nuclear weapons not even Benjamin Netanyahu has said that you've said it well he's more responsible he's a prime minister so you're irresponsible yes I mean new king an entire country that is not what's written in the article you misquote everything you say you say okay I'll say what what the context is is destroying the Iranian nuclear facilities that's the context nuk yes with nukes but not destroying Iran as you just said I said you think dropping a nuke on Iran would have limited not on Iran on small nuclear bombs can destroy facilities

like natans and you know that it's not to do I mean you've been advocating this for 15 years right I've been advocating Israeli an Israeli strike against the Iranian nuclear project because Iran says that its policy is to destroy Israel if they ever nuk if they ever achieve nuclear weaponry Israel will be immortal you didn't say that you said bum them now you said in 2008 no no no no now now in 2008 you're not telling the truth you know that you didn't call for the new king you didn't call for a nuclear strike in

2008 on Iran no I didn't in 2008 I said Israel should destroy the Iranian nuclear installation with a nuclear strike no I didn't say that this is my problem Benny you keep saying I you don't remember the New York Times July the 18th 2008 an Israeli Nuclear Strike to prevent the Iranians from taking the final steps towards getting the bomb is prob I I didn't say I supported it I said it's probable you said the alternative is letting Teran have its bomb it's very clear what you were come now who's playing word game Israel does

not have as part of its policy and doesn't announce as its policy the destruction of Iran but Iran does say that its policy is to destroy Israel and they are working dig diligently to get nuclear weapons and if the Iranians do achieve nuclear weapons Israel will be basically will be finished that that's the that's what the Iranians are aiming at and using nuclear tactical nuclear weapons to destroy the Iranian nuclear installations before they achieve nuclear weaponry makes sense to me it may not make sense to you because you're not as an Israeli so you don't

care but I'm a human being so I care about nuclear I don't what to care about I don't know what to care about well you just assumed uh let me go to our panel here we have dibu uh Palestinian lawyer in Israel former adviser to the PLO we have Daniel Levy former Israeli Peace negotiator at the US Middle East project uh we have Emanuel naon who is an international relations Lector at Tel Aviv University um Diana I got to bring you in first since we got started earlier potential fifth column this is exactly the problem

is that he's a racist he spouses these racist views that's the problem with Israel Israel is a is a society a country that is based on this idea of Jewish Supremacy and anything that they do or say goes which means therefore that as a Palestinian who lives in that country who is not enjoying any benefits of so-called democracy that they get to espouse and tell me how I feel they get to make statements like we are fifth column and they actually treat Palestinians as though they are a fifth column it's very important Matti for people

to understand that Israel came to us is we didn't immigrate to Israel Israel is a colonial movement and as a colonial movement its aim is to not only get rid of Palestinians but it's to to transform the entire place to erase and replace okay Emanuel I want to ask you this do you recognize the shifts that Benny was agreeing on at the start of this segment about what's happening inside of Israeli Society well allow me to respond to what Diana just said she's not telling the truth what she's saying is not true uh first of

all the the Jewish country I mean there are over 190 states in the world most of them are nation states it's not about Supremacy it is about National selfdetermination and freedom now we didn't come to you this is our land this is a Jewish way that the state was created our and first of all when you take we came to you it's not I did not interrupt you let him finish this point IND okay first of all when you say we've been there for hundreds of years the world Palestine it's an invention of British colonialism

it was invented in 1920 it did not exist under the Ottoman Empire when this story start it's an it's a colonial invention so when you said Palestine and you can't even pronounce it in Arabic because there's no p in Arab that's why we say we did not con all right emanel I'm going to I'm going to bring you back to my question and then move on what do you make of bazal smotrich and itar benav referring to Arabs the most dehumanizing race are you going to deny that as well like every society we have our

extremist okay uh it's a democracy I don't agree with them but we have like every society we have our extremist and you are in government yes well I didn't vote for this government I wish they were not in the government Daniel hasn't spoken Daniel leevy when I was in a Zionist youth movement and president of the world jior Jewish students being pumped with the talking points and the propaganda points I really think they were more sophisticated and I may be misremembering this I cannot genuinely cannot believe that this is what now constitutes an Israeli attempt

at defending and putting your best foot forward but then I look at the reality in Israel today and of course that's what it should look like because what's the reality we're living in and let me take two snapshots first of all it's really not that surprising that we've got to at this point when you consider the impunity with which the external community and Israel's allies and the west and the us treat Israel despite the litany the entire spectrum of violations of international law and of Human Rights and yet every time there's an excuse there's a

veto at the United Nations then there's more arms and in that respect don't expect Israelis to come up with better talking points when they don't have to because you're willing to run cover for them and create completely the wrong incentive structure please respond I must protest you've brought three um people in a panel two of whom are pro Palestinian anti-zionist that's the purpose of the yes they it's supposed to be two against one that's the that's the way you've organized we did ask you to watch the show before you came I consider myself Pro Jewish

Pro Palestinian Pro human I consider okay all right no let me finish let me finish you are a pro Palestinian propagandist that's all you've become just so that you know that let's go around the audience we're going to try and see where we've got some hands up we're going to go to gentleman here third row with the jacket on uh just if you could say something more from an Israeli perspective in terms of the threat they face from Hamas as an islamist movement which is pledged to slaughter all the Jews in Israel that's what it

says in its cha never vot Charter if you could explain that more detail please the Hamas is a small organization with a small army of terrorists um it doesn't represent in my view an existential threat to Israel but as part of the larger um Muslim radical Arab world that part of it including Iran together they do represent an existential threat to Israel Israel is not fighting merely the it's fighting the hutis it's fighting militias in Syria and Iraq it's fighting theah orchestrated by the Iranians at the moment which wants to destroy Israel yes lady here

in the third row on the second my question is to Diana or Daniel because I want an honest and truthful answer given the decades long brutality against the Palestinians by the Israeli government without much regard for international law or Consequences should we have seen the escalation in this genocide coming and what could be the global implications when States disregard international law to justify and even normalize genocide danana briefly we've gotten to a point in this world where the world tells us that nothing can justify October 7th and yet everything that Israel has done since October

7th can be justified by October 7th that's a distorted world and we have to understand what the what this occupation has meant it's been violent from the from day one the NBA was violent and what we're seeing today is Contin of thata for world order to be restored we need to have a system where all states are held to account not where we get to have a country that says it's time to bomb Iran because they might have a nuclear weapon big secret Israel has a nuclear weapon too gentleman the brown jacket and then the

gentleman here in the blue jumper um I know that we're on Al jazer Qatari station what do we think about the fact that Qatar has funded Hamas for so long persecuting Gaza Palestinians and also we haven't heard one mention of the 120 hostages still being kept what pressure could katar be putting on Hamas to release those hostages immediately regardless of all the rest of this take that well Qatar has been supporting the Kamas for de for at least a decade with money propaganda etc etc probably using Al jazer also in in that fashion um this

should end I think normal states shouldn't support what the world regards or at least the Western World regards uniformally as a terrorist organization um it's true that Hamas is holding still holding 120 Israeli hostages women children octogenarians 2-year-olds and whatever the they had 250 in the beginning now it's been reduced to 120 many of them killed by Hamas people um many of them killed by is and by Israelis and by Israelis also Israelis also killed some of the hostages hopefully they will be released I'll go we all we we hope they will be released um

I would just say one thing why did the Israeli government prop up Hamas for so long and encourage Qatar to send money to Gaza stupidly out of they're not let they're not hearing my answer I'm just wonder question so let me ask answer you you give a long answer that the answer is that the Israeli government under Netanyahu behaved stupidly and this was part of the incompetence of of netan I don't think it was incompetence uh let's go to the gentleman here in the blue jumper let take his microphone I'm I'm not insure and I

wrote a book called what is genocide to bring Benny back to Gaza because you said it's a war it's and there's collateral damage and that Hamas knew and that may be true but I mean the real point is that Israel knew isn't it that if you uh bend the rules of War so that a 100 people can be killed for one militant if you do that thousands and thousands of times with 2,000 bombs you know that the whole of Gaz is going to be a ruin you know that you're going to destroy that society and

that the the only way we can understand that in overall sense it's not a series of war crimes it is a one big crime and I think the name for that is genocide absolutely you want to respond to that hold on let him respond I think I've already made the point the Kamas when it attacked Israel on the 7th of October knew that Israel would retaliate with bombing and knew knew that lots of Gaz and civilians would die they were hoping for that cuz that looks good on Western television images but they say that killing

a lot of Gaza civilians is good because they go to heaven they they become Martyrs so this is this is Benny can I ask you a question can I hold can did I say something wrong no no I just I just I I just want to follow your logic here Hamas knew that I just want to follow your your argument is Hamas knew if they did this we'd do a genocide so we did a genocide genocide no you're they knew that we come and kill lots of people they knew that Israel would kill lots of

they knew that Israel would kill lots of Gaza not a great they that going after theas they knew that lots of Gaz and civilian would be killed and they were happy with this because of international pressure which would result okay we're running out time on to take gentleman in the suit yes Benny Morris you say that the ICC should issue an arrest warrant against the Israeli Prime Minister and the Israeli war minister you have Galant but on the 9th of October they imposed a total Siege on 2.3 million civilians in Gaza depriving them of water

medicine food that is what they're accused of starvation as a weapon of War something that the Syrian and the Russian regimes were accused of do you condemn that has anybody been died in Gaza of starvation this is yes yes this this is this is to this is total nonsense the Israeli the Israeli you want me to answer yes I do you want me to but I want some evidence you can't just say things that are false I'm not going to let you say that the Israeli government I think think the ministers debated whether to cut

off water cut off electricity etc etc they eventually resolved not to do that and though though lots of reporters have been saying and the United Nations that Gaza is on the verge of starvation on the verge of famine etc etc that is not happened how do you know that how do you know that hold hold on stop heckling how do you know that Ben and please any report of anyone dying of reports I haven't read any so that makes it nonsense because you haven't read any I haven't heard of anybody of starvation you don't think

there's a famine there's a a food problem there people food is you me there's a famine in Northern Gaza I don't know what the word famine means there is a food problem there's a l there's there's malnutrition this this I have heard but nobody's died they will conveni stay alive as far as I know nobody has died of starvation in G know I've read quotes saying you're a historian you look at the sources you find the evidence and now you're like I don't know what famine means I haven't seen anything mean it's a big claims

you're making you should back it up with some evidence because I'm you should back it up tell me a report in which somebody has died of starvation Cindy McCain who's Cindy McCain is the head of the world food program she's a widow she wait she said she the widow she said she's the Widow of Senator John McCain the most pro-israeli senator of my lifetime she said Northern gazar in is a full-blown famine and that there are children women and children in skeletal states there did she say somebody died of St ation I'm asking you did

anybody die of starvation yes there have been documented cases read the newspapers read the humanitarian you just quoted didn't talk about St you said there was no famine a moment ago I didn't say I said I don't know what famine is well that's a good get out and it's at the core of the discussion let's take another question gentleman in the green jacket's been waiting a while hi my question is to Benny I just want to know um if you were Palestinian right and you were born in Palestine would you given the circumstances support a

Palestinian right to resistance in the form that they have the form I would support Palestinian resistance if I was living under Israeli occupation yes which is what the Palestinians are yes Benny Benny we're out of time I do it's a very interesting question he posed very interesting answer I do want to ask about because I watched a recent uh discussion you did and you were telling your opponent you need to have empathy you need to put yourself in other people's shoes so let's just continue on gentleman's very good question I thought I mean if you

were a kid in Gaza right now and you saw your home blown up by the Israeli Air Force you saw your parents incinerated in front of you you're starving what's your view of Israel going to be it'll probably be very negative but it might also be negative towards the Hamas who generated this conflict and led to that home being born think the kid of thinking when he sees his parents killed by isra he might think both things he probably he what would you think if you were that kid probably I would describe the death of

his parents to an Israeli bomb and to the Israelis but I might on reflection later think maybe the Hamas shouldn't have slaughtered so many Israelis on the 7th of October which led to this I'm genuinely asking is that your talking point or is that as a human being that's how you would feel as a human being I think I would feel anger towards those who had just killed my parents but I think growing up and on reflection I might think that theas had led to this I might quite the empathy I was looking for but

uh we will I mean if that's your honest answer I'll take it that's my answer I appreciate that Benny Morris thank you for joining me on the show today thank you to our audience in London's Conway Hall thank you to our panel of experts uh who joined the discussion that's all we have time for thank you for watching at home good night [Applause]