“Heaven & Hell Exist Right NOW…” Do This To Create A Mind Of Love | Marianne Williamson

we're at a moment where you're either headed down or headed up you start with the realization that the controlling you the negative you the needy you was a product of your experience here in a very hurt world you can't just heal the symptom you have to move into root cause the idea of the Christ mind is like an undeletable file within the computer of your own Consciousness so now you're not talking about just something that happened 2,000 years ago you're talking about what's happening in our lives right here right now Jesus represents someone who has

perfectly and completely actualized the Divine Consciousness which is potential within us all none of that's hard but life is complicated So when you say how do we do it well two things come up for me number one now between climate and Wars we're like wow how did we let this happen but we have to remember this is all purposeful and it's all taking us to who we need to be wiser stronger more capable because we have a world to save Maryann it's so good to see you again it's so good to see you too thank

you for having me yeah I think the topic of today's conversation is uh really important more now than ever and know we were just talking a little bit before starting and of course before election times I think things generally get heated uh but as it relates to Jesus and the archetypal mystical understandings instead of just the literal historical figure that he was can you make your distinction with that off the bat before we dive in further well you're talking about the distinction between the historical Jesus and the mystical yeah okay so obviously uh Jesus the

man lived 2,000 years ago and uh there's nothing in the mystical conversation which minimizes that or uh in any way disrespects the more traditional Notions that emerg from a concentration on Jesus as historical figure that's not what this is about at all what it's about is the fact that in all the great religious systems there is the mystical core so in Judaism they have the cabala in uh Islam there is Sufism and within Christianity or not so much the religion of Christianity but within the worldview that arises from a Christ Center perspective there has always

been the Gnostic or the mystical tradition and a lot of the ecclesiastic more traditional Church Notions with dogma and Doctrine there's a minimizing of the gnostics and the mystics like oh well they've just been a small tributary but I remember when I read a book by elain Pagel called Gnostic Gospels it was really mind-blowing for a lot of us because she makes the um historical case for the fact that no this wasn't one major river one tiny arbitr uh tributary this was two major rivers but all all you know throughout history the um Mystics have

been either figuratively or literally sort of run into the hills so today the way the Mystic the Christian or the Christ centered Mystic and I won't say Christian because this is not specifically about a religion I think that's the whole point of the mystical Christ is that it is not only not tied to Dogma or doctrine it can't be monopolized by any one particular religion so I think that there is a major historic rethinking going on on the planet at this time and not just in terms of religion and spirituality politics science healing food agriculture

relationship sex sexuality uh everything it's like we're giving it a major rethink because clearly we are moving even you know when you have even like the Secretary General of the United Nations saying that we're heading in an unsustainable Direction something's going to have to evolve in a different way and when we were children we were taught that we were taught that if a species is um displaying Collective habit patterns behavioral patterns that are maladaptive for its survival something's going to give either there will be an evolutionary turn in a different direction or that species will

go extinct and I think people whether we are really looking at this soberly or not I think a lot of people certainly get that we're we we're Beyond dysfunctional we are malun functional at this point as a species so what's the what's the mutation as it were what is the display of a better way which is what happens when a a species mutates some member of the species demonstrates a different way a different possibility and then in the cases where there is an evolution of the species the entire species begins to move in that direction

that's what the great religious figures are that's what the great avatars and great spiritual leaders are they are people who have lived on the Earth and some cases perhaps live now and demonstrate a better way so now you're not talking about just something that happened 2,000 years ago in somebody else's life you're talking about what's happening in our lives right here right now because the Mystic Christ is not a man who lived 2,000 years ago but the spirit that has inhabited that man but inhabits all of us and we begin to see the story of

his life in terms of its archetypal significance all religious uh uh scripture is code it code and so you begin to see just like when people talk about dreams and they say well every every character in the dream is an aspect of you every character of the Christ story is an aspect of us an aspect of the world and that's really what the book is about but that's what all Mystic you know teachings uh Christ centered teachings are about so nothing really new it's just my take on Jesus then within the context of the course

of Miracles I know so many of us have grown up in a form of Christianity or really churchianity where it's like yeah it's the ecclesiastic religion you know and some of us wake up to how maybe that doesn't work for us anymore and then often times unfortunately we throw out the baby with the bath water in this case it's the baby Jesus with the religious bath water like didn't mean to just end up in chaos and Randomness here yeah but you know it is a shame because Jesus Christ both the archetypal energy in which he

represents for us all as a North star but also him as like one of the most powerful human beings to have walked on this planet you know um I think there is many people now searching whether it's through the aines in that beautiful um lineage or the gnostics and and seeing and discovering more of who Jesus was what he represented and um you know when we look at how Buddha wasn't a Buddhist and Jesus wasn't a Christian they represent a level of alignment that we can T to in our life that is now needed more

than ever uh and so I'm just curious what do you think for those that have you know and and many ways thrown out the baby with the bathat and are now discovering you know Jesus as a Mystic um yeah what do you say to them well you describe the situation perfectly and people are realizing wait a minute as you said didn't mean to throw away the baby with the bath water and that's why the popularity of books like a course of Miracles and a course of Miracles once again no Monopoly on Truth here not even

a monopoly on introduction uh and opening to the Christ centered worldview but it is one way and in reading the book in doing the daily lessons we literally retrain our attitudinal muscles the idea here is that Jesus represents someone who has perfectly and completely actualized the Divine Consciousness which is potential within us all and that that sense he becomes what is called in the course of Miracles an evolutionary elder brother an evolutionary elder brother I love that and he says on the course I don't have anything you don't have the difference between us is I

don't have anything else I am in a state which is only potential in you so you start with that you start with the realization that the neurotic you the controlling you the negative you the needy you the victim you the whatever your Character defects or posture or you know impostor self might be is a personality is a Persona that was a product of your experience here in a very hurt World in a world that is dominated by a thought system based on fear a sense that we're separate from each other a sense that we're alone

here a sense that the world is random uh the experience of chaos the woundings of the world and so we do what we can to cope with that but a lot of our coping mechanisms are actually they actually make things worse because in our HT we develop those personality characteristics that maybe the enlightened Master would look at you and go oh you must be wounded but most people would look at you and just go you're a jerk or you're dysfunctional or I don't want to be around you or whatever once we realize that all of

that is a product of our deep seated uh core belief beliefs and thoughts about ourselves and others then we know that we have to heal on that causal level you can't just heal the symptom even of the symptoms of your own personality you have to move into root cause the idea of the Christ mind the idea of that which Jesus actualized is like an undeletable file within the computer of your own Consciousness it's not something you need to create it's something that God created it's in all of us and because God created it it's unalterable

and eternal the image I use in the book is when Michelangelo was asked how do you create a sculpture and he said I go to the Quarry and I see these big pieces of marble and in my mind God has already created the pi the David the Moses my job he said is to get rid of all the excess marble that surrounds uh the the statue that God has already made the Christ mind the IDE IDE of the Christ mind is where you take the notion You Know Carl Yong said if you go deep enough

into your mind and deep enough into mine there is mental imagery what he called archetypes that we all share the idea of the Christ mind from a metaphysical perspective you take it one step further that if you go deep enough into your mind and deep enough into mine we share the same mind and that's really the esoteric meaning of the idea that there is only one begotten son not that Jesus is the only one but that we're all it we are all one when you realize we are all one the idea of the Christ mind

is not only is there no place where I stop and you start but that which is the perfect Christ mind is completely innocent and completely loving and completely invulnerable to lovelessness or imperfection and all the problems of the world come from our identifying with this false World rather than the real world so the course of Miracle says that Enlightenment is a shift in self-perception from body identification to Spirit identification now none of that's hard but it's different it's simple but life is complicated So when you say how do we do it well two things come

up for me number one is there's so much for us to embrace about the power of every morning because when you wake up in the morning and you go Direct ly to social media directly to the news directly to the stuff of the world it's like you're just saying to the world and to the worst aspects of the world come on eat me alive take my nervous system make me crazy come on do it and especially like before political campaign and stuff we're all just like this yeah and every every religious tradition I've ever read

about talks about the power of the morning to calm whether it's the lessons of the course uh transcendental medal meditation some mindfulness exercise Buddhist cabalistic whatever to align the nervous system with the truth of who we are the course of Miracle says even five minutes in the morning will guarantee that the spirit will be in charge of your thought forms throughout the day it doesn't mean you're going to be an enlightened Master but it means that the chances of you really falling off this spiritual wagon saying something doing something sending an email writing a tweet

you're going to go oh why I do that your chances are much less and also the chances are much greater that you'll catch yourself when you do and you can atone and make amends the second thing is to recognize that everything we go through in life is part of a what the course of Mires calls a highly individualized curriculum everyone we meet every situation we're in is perfect for what we can learn that moment that day are you showing up in your best are you showing up with a give mentality or get mentality is your

heart open or is your heart closed are you there in support of others are you only thinking about yourself and uh it's it's it's about using every experience to train our attitudinal muscles there is physical gravity you you go to the gym because at a certain age if you're not holding those muscles up gravity is bringing them down but there's emotional psychological gravity too if we're not exercising with a accumulated repetitions of positivity and graciousness and forgiveness and mercy and personal responsibility then we're headed down to anger to um uh cynicism to anxiety to depression

and that's really where we are right now we're at a moment where you're either headed down or headed up the you know we've had this myth of the of neutrality but there's really no such thing as a neutral thought there's no such thing as a neutral life either our energy is is being sucked into this melstrom that's at this point a downward spiral and you see it all around us uh institutions crumbling people's relationships how people feel about themselves or you're part of this evolutionary spiraling up that is also happening that we're all you know

and the kind of people who' be listening to your podcast feel part of and want to be part of these two simultaneous phenomena happening at the same time part of taking responsibility for those that want to go on that upward spiral trajectory is deconditioning all these programs that we have embedded in society culture historical parental and so I want to keep unpacking the differences between some of the literal interpretations and contrasting that to the archetypal metaphorical um and just getting us closer to reality one of the things that has been weaponized you know by the

church is this concept of heav in hell and I think the more that you kind of put aside belief in general and dogmatic ways of thinking you see that these are realities that people are experiencing every day here on Earth putting aside what happens after we die right and so much of you know your work of Course in Miracles um many teachers have talked about how hell is separation from God just like fear is separation from Love And so what is heaven and hell and the mystical understanding as how it relates to reality that heaven

is neither a condition nor a place it's an awareness of our Oneness and it's not someplace you go after you die it's it's somewhere you go pretty much right after the thought you thought which was a reflection of an awareness of Oneness same with hell it's not about after you die it's the anxiety fear pain angst depression that we feel as a product of of thought as you said that is separated from Love and so it's not after we die it's right after we thought the last thought that we think and the course of Miracle

says that because all minds are joined every thought we think takes not only ourselves but everyone around us straight to heaven straight to hell if you are thinking thoughts of of love and trying your best to show up it has a ripple effect everybody around you can feel it be part of it feel that we're sharing a field here if you introduce into that field your own stuff your own unloving stuff people can feel that as well and so we're all in this together whether we recognize that we're in it together or not the mystical

issue in terms of Jesus in terms of God is and like you were talking about how Dogma can be weaponized the Dogma that that you referred to says okay if you get it wrong I.E sin then God will send you to Hell well this is the exact flip you know you this is the opposite of that it is the idea that first of all you can't sin because God created you perfect and the real you is only capable of love you can however and often do we're human beings make mistakes and sometimes big mistakes but

God doesn't see it as a sin that he wants to punish God sees it as a mistake an error that the holy spirit that connecting link between God and us is here to correct so help hell isn't where God sends you because you did something terrible hell is what God Saves you from hell is what you sent yourself to with your own wrong-minded thinking thinking that was separated from love which is separated from God which is the same thing and God is that which delivers you so to say Jesus is your savior for instance another

one weaponized okay from a mystical perspective the only thing to be saved from is our constant temptation to think without love because we've been trained on this Earth in a mindset from the time we're very young we think that unnatural thoughts feel natural to us natural thinking feels unnatural to us it is unnatural the way we accuse the way we judge the way we attack and we're living in a very mean-spirited moment social media it's it's unbelievable and canceling each other and accusing one another and thinking the worst it's it's unbelievable so that is not

the thinking of love that is not the thinking of God so the idea that Jesus quote on quote saves the only thing to be saved from is our own negative thinking the only thing to be saved from is our own insanity and Jesus being that fully actualized uh elder brother we're taught and we're also taught in the course that he's not the only one but him having achieved that full actualization of our divine mind mind has been authorized by God should we request it because if we don't request it it's a violation of our free

will but we're taught that he has the power should you request it and the course says he will respond fully to your slightest invitation he has become one with the Holy Spirit or the connecting bridge between us and the mind of God and to call on one is to call on the other and if you say I'm angry I'm upset I'm I'm but I'm willing not to be that prayer is the medium of that Miracle I'm willing not to be I know this is my own thinking but I am so triggered and I'm so wounded

and the evidence of the world tells me that this person messed with me I am willing to see this differently and then it begins it could be a book that falls at your feet something a friend says you turn on TV you turn on uh something and somebody says something often I'm always fascinated by how sometimes it's somebody who's the last person you would think of that was going to be just dropping this truth bomb they didn't even know that they were speaking to just what you needed to hear uh and then if you can

Qui your mind it so increases um your ability to hear um blae Pascal who is a French philosopher who lived centuries ago said that every problem in the world stems from man's in ability to sit quietly in a room alone at your home in your studio obviously you you were well aware of this your home and your studio are set up to support your aesthetic your furniture everything about it supports the alignment of the nervous system with the best of who we are the world today is cacophonous it's it's so hard to find Harmony within

that and uh there is in both Judaism and in Christianity the phrase the small still voice within the ego speaks first and the ego speaks loudest and it's yelling at us all the time and if we don't cultivate that inner silence just like if I go to the gym it's to work my muscle so that I can move you go into meditation and prayer to work your attitudinal muscles so that you can be non-reactive and still and knowing and loving which is much easier to do when the people around you are loving and what the

ego will always be doing as a voice in your head and a voice from other people is trying to bait you and that's where the rubber meets the road in your book The Mystic Jesus one quote that I liked was you said the only thing to be saved from is our own misguided belief that we are separate and alone in a random and meaningless Universe for that is the source of all fear I want to talk a little bit about this illusion of Separation because it does serve a useful purpose meaning without the perception of

individuality life the universe God doesn't get to go on this data collection process of differentiating itself so much so and it also you imagine God floating in the universe alone diff now differentiating itself into all these different beings forgetting who we are right we have this like ego that you said is the loudest and the first to speak usually right and so much of the journey is then going to discovering who we are beneath that and so what purpose do you see separation is as it pertains to like functioning in reality well there are two

levels of Separation there's no purpose in a sense of spiritual separation if I have a sense of our spiritual Unity it doesn't mean I've lost my brain cells it doesn't mean I don't realize that you're over there and I'm over here doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the three dimensions of it all doesn't mean I don't appreciate that you're a man and I'm a woman and that you've got your experience and I've got mine and you've collected your data you said and I've collected mine and how cool that we can share it I get that

I don't become stupid when I realize our spiritual Oneness the image that the course uses that I think is very um for me very psychologically Illuminating is the image of the where it says the course the course says you're like a Sunbeam in the sun thinking you're separate from other sunbeams and you are like a wave in the ocean thinking you are separate from other waves so think about the psychological difference if you're a wave in the ocean think about the psychological difference of thinking I'm just one wave surrounded by all that water how could

I not live in constant fear that I'm going to be annihilated some other wave's going to be bigger I'm not even going to exist versus I'm one with all the other way one with the ocean it moves I move I move it moves I'm completely safe here I'm one with the ocean that's the difference so you know I think there's so many ways that we talk about how if you accept the spiritual truth somehow you'll become stupid I think that you are more comfortable in the body and more purposeful within the body when you know

you're not your body when you know that this is a a suit of clothes that we wear for a while and it's a Priceless suit of clothes and this three-dimensional drama is magnificent and I and let me tell you something you get that the more and more the older you get because you have more and more of a sense I'm not going to be on this island forever yeah right so it's magnificent but knowing that it is not the Eternal truth frees you the CH of Miracle says physical birth is not the beginning of your

life but a continuation of your life physical death is not the end of your life but a continuation of your life so it doesn't mean you don't appreciate this and enjoy this it means actually counterintuitively you do so with great freedom and with greater comfort you sit within your body more comfortably when you know you're not your body and then also you you realize all the ways in which the body is programmed you know the Holy Spirit I think speaks to us through our subconscious mind your body is programmed to get it right on this

planet we we know how to do it yeah it's it's like the the referencing our first innocence when you're born you see a six-month year old baby and see the primordial Purity that's just in there right and then we go and we live life and we have our conditioning and the returning to Christ is the second innocence we discover and I think that there's something really unique in unmatched through the really challenging pivotal moments of redefining ourselves in our own AR personal Armageddon I've heard you refer to in our own crucifixion and Resurrection uh there's

something unique in what it locks in all of us individually um and wisdom we can share and Grace we can give to others and so what do you feel is the mystical understanding of the crucifixion and Resurrection what you just said is so interesting because you referred to what would be the psychological significance of the three days between the crucifixion and the resurrection so the crucifixion metaphysically is the energy pattern by which fear or ego seeks to you up whether it's in your own mind uh sabotaging undermining you like you the things you say I

can't believe I was so stupid or other people tripping you up attacking you or whatever or it could be you know for some people it's the experience of your divorce it's the experience of illness it's the experience of getting sober it's the experience of grieving a loved one it's the things that happen on this Earth that tempt us to to say stuck in over identific with what's happening in the world failing to recognize the larger peace and love that's available to us no matter what the Consciousness that we have while in the midst of the

crucifixion notice once again with the story of Jesus so there's somebody crucified to his left crucified to his right but we're not taught that they're resurrected the purity of his mind so the course of Miracles says Miracles occur naturally as expressions of love that in the presence of love the universe works like a GPS you take a wrong turn away from love the universe automatically recalibrates your root so there's the consciousness of of love I will continue to have faith I will continue to try to love that person no matter what they did I will

atone from my mistakes I will forgive others for theirs I will really try to work this I will really try to work that this two shall pass I will really try to take responsibility I will really try to do all the inner work that at this point we all pretty much intellectually know it's the work to be done then the body goes into the tomb and that tomb my friend Sandy calls it tomb time you're crying you know you're grieving the time to be heartbroken is when your heart is breaking you're crying you're processing you're

doing your work uh you're in that darkened tomb space and then 3 days later the symbolic three days just like the symbolic 40 years in the Old Testament the women come to retrieve the body and there are angels I.E thoughts of God in the mystical tradition and they say to her to them to the women he's not here he's risen what that means along with what you were saying you're not even the same person you your molecular structure is different you're not triggered by the same things you're healed things you didn't used to be healed

of uh you're ready for life in a different way you are transformed as a person that's what Resurrection is resurrection is the return to sane thinking that's what the course of Miracles is to return to your right mind and when you've returned to your right mind the detrus uh of the wrong-minded neurotic pathological stuff it just Falls away it's like in the presence of that light of understanding who you are and understanding who other people are the Darkness Falls away and that's the twice born and that's the resurrection and that is you were mentioning the

Armageddon before um that has tremendous uh Collective uh applicability as well yeah I just whether you call it the Dark Knight of the Soul or the the fear of the crucifixion it just seems like you know many people that I've you know supported or talked to that have been through like really immense huge um deep moments of depression or a loss of someone there is the fear of entering the darkness and not knowing if we'll make it out on the other side the real actuality of an ego death you know and on the same Tok

on other side of the coin there's the fear of the light that's on the other side of it and that we have within us and you speak to this so powerfully as well so for those that Fe that are experiencing or they anticipate one day will be coming their own personal Dark Knight you know and they have the fear of the ego death and the power of their own light what do you say to them well you're you're saying really important stuff there when you said we're afraid of the darkness afraid of going into the

darkness because we're afraid we'll never get out what we should be afraid of is not going into it when it's time to go into it and that's how much damage these psychological myths are that dominate the modern world Happy be happy be happy this cheap yellow smiley face that's what's dysfunctional you know when I was going through something very difficult I called my friend um Mary morsy I don't know if you've ever met Mary she's this incredible Minister and teacher and uh and she was talking to me about how she had gone through something very

difficult and just would walk on the beach and she was reading St John's Dark Night of the soul and the thing about the Dark Night of the Soul she said is number one it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when and that when you allow yourself to go through the Dark Night of the Soul you actually come to embrace it because you come to recognize aspects of yourself that you didn't even know we're there so this idea that we have once again it's a it's a big lie that's been promulgated in our

society that there's something wrong about being sad sometimes there are things to be sad about I've been saying in my my lectures for years looking at the conditions of the world if you're not depressed about that who are you how superficial you must be if you're not crying about some of what's going on sometimes psychological and emotional pain are like physical pain they're necessary they're a message they are not a a dysfunctional response but a a a functional response you know my friend David Kesler who does all the grief work he called me one day

he said did you see that article in the New York Times I said yeah I know the one you mean it was this absurd article about how long you should cry after someone you love died and if it's up to this point they these self described wise men said now if it's that long it's normal if it's not you should go on medication it's like who are these people to say how long uh someone's processing should be I mean if we're talking about years then we obviously there's something to look at there that's not what

it was saying and the idea of moving into uh the cave moving into the tomb I used to say my grief support groups this is a grief support group not a grief denial group you know I've heard people say you know somebody will call somebody up and say Your mother died two months ago aren't you ready can't we just go to the movies now that's what's sick right so I think that uh this this this allowing oneself the grandor I I wrote a book called tears to Triumph and at the beginning of the book I

put a quote from Roa let me not squander the hour of my pain it's powerful mhm let me not squander there are things I'm learning here I know I've I've been through a lot in my life and those are sacred times too those are sacred times too a quick share for you coffee free folks out there as someone who steers clear of strong caffeine but still loves that warm energizing morning ritual I've been on a mission to find the cleanest and most effective Alternatives and I'm happy to share that I've struck gold I've recently found

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yeah if you only had prayed about that one yeah if you only hadn't acted so quickly if you only hadn't only been thinking about yourself yeah if you only hadn't you know uh behaved so recklessly or irresponsibly yeah maybe if you had thought more about yourself maybe you'd have more faith in yourself maybe if you had taken the whole project more seriously yeah you get to on the other side of it in AA they say every problem comes bearing its own solution but it comes bearing its own solution in that it will ultimately take you

to realizing the person that you had chosen not to be and even when other people did it to you you know the course of Miracle says you have to take 100% responsibility for your experience and if you don't the price you will pay is that you can't change it so sometimes you'll feel like look this was 90% their stuff well we're going to have to look at the 10% that's yours because and I've seen this so often in my life yeah they did it to your Maryann but you let them in the room you let

them what were you doing letting that person anywhere near this project it's such a fine line between taking responsibility and furthering the guilt cycle um okay so that's the issue of remorse and regret so sometimes when people say oh don't feel bad no no no no no you have to let yourself feel bad only a psychopath only a sociopath feels No Remorse and no regret right but the issue is the ego mind wants you to hold on to it and just bludging yourself bludging yourself really there's you want to feel it as the course of

Miracle says look at the crucifixion but do not dwell on it and you can feel it you can feel when okay this is processing it this isn't indulging it yeah this is allowing myself to experience it processing this is spewing it so if you become conscious of your own the seasons of your own life and despair you also know okay and now it's time get up take what you learned and be a better person now yeah it's it's a a really powerful reminder and I think also coupled with the the grace of the gray area

where it's not as easily CLE if we should stay in the muck or it's time to get up and out you know it's like it's it's part of the messy human process but the principle of atonement is a very important thing that people realize and the power of taking responsibility and feeling the feelings like and an individual like you said without any empathy or feeling of remorse is a sociopath right so like we need to acknowledge where we've been you know Miss where we've mised U but what is what is atonement what does that mean

and how uh it's principle for spiritual growth it's where you admit I got it wrong I did it wrong so the Catholics have confession is they go along the Jews have uh one holy holiest day of the year yam Kapur and Alcoholics Anonymous you admit the exact nature of your Character defects it's where you go back to the moment and you say I did it I did it I did it I did say that I did do that I didn't do that whatever it was and you realize that even even though you chose wrongly you

admit you chose wrongly but from a miraculous and a miracle minded perspective you know in this moment I can choose again and I can in my moment now get I didn't I wasn't prayerful I wasn't responsible I this did not that decision what I said or what I did or what I didn't do did not emerge from the Holiness in me the wholeness in me the love in me the truth in me and then from a mystical perspective you give it to God now and say I choose again and then what I love is that

then the course says I will not feel guilty for the Holy Spirit Will undo all consequences of my wrong decision if I will let him and I choose to let him by allowing him to decide for God for me might not be the same situation might not be the same people might not be the same location but something will come around in your life and you'll realize ize I'm getting the chance to get it right where I got it wrong before and things will be undone in kind of amazing ways what what how do you

perceive the difference between thinking like the Holy Spirit and father are like these kind of external amorphous things that like grant us Grace and that they'll transmute things for us versus like these are energies realities within our s well yeah even your your body language you point it up there is the course of Miracle says one day you will realize there is nothing outside yourself it's all mind it's all aspects of mind so that's once again the weaponized Doctrine and Dogma is there's something outside yourself judging you no there's just something the mind of love

that loves you no matter what and if you made a mistake you know beginning to show Mercy to yourself is no different than showing Mercy to others you got it wrong life's hard was complicated and it's Blasphemous to just keep BL bludgeoning ourselves uh just like it's Blasphemous to to to keep judging others and also it's delaying the time that's what God really wants from you get out there and be better next time MH you know yeah as it relates to the moments where it's difficult to do that you know like Joseph Campbell's the cave

you fear to enter hold the treasure you seek um just rings so resonant with me and what I try and what I my intention also with like this podcast and platform is to help and remind people to take responsibility for their life you know it's like a really big theme in Romans 12:2 I believe it's do not be conformed by the pattern of this world but transformed by the renewing of your mind and I talk about that in the Mystic Jesus I think I quote that one rual of your mind and also I think getting

older you know you just take so much for granted when you're younger and when you're older and you look back and you realize I didn't realize I didn't take my life seriously enough or I didn't take other people's lives seriously enough I didn't take that relationship seriously enough other people's relationship seriously enough and look at the state of the world you know I I've said to people who would have thought we'd be nostalgic for the 1970s you know we just had no idea now between climate and wars and militarism and our political system and Fascism

and Corruption we're like like wow how did we let this happen but we know how we let this happen we were not deep we surrendered our best thinking our deeper seriousness about life but it's not the it's not the it's not midnight yet it's the 11th hour and I think there's a sense of urgency I think so much of what you and I are talking about here today once again we've all read the same books we've all listened to the same tapes we get it we get it up here the courts of Miracle says that

Enlightenment begins as an abstract concept and then Begins the journey without distance from the head to the heart there's what we know the principles that we know and I think even you and me having this conversation today I'm sure there are a lot of people for whom nothing we're talking about is new information but rather we're having these conversations to be able to Embrace more deeply and experience more deeply the concepts that by now most of us already know it's living living it especially we all have our blind spots and so your life experience is

not going to come around to honor your your comfort zones it's going to come around to bust your comfort zones to make obvious to you your blind spot so I think it feels hard for so many people right now because everybody's going through their little piece of the crucified world but we have to remember this is all purposeful and it's all taking us to who we need to be because we need to develop the characterological aspects of self to endure these times and to transform these times everything happening is a reflection of who we have

been so if we don't like what's happening we have to become someone other than who we have been the renewal of the mind to know that we were we were conforming to the patterns of the world and this is what we got okay have a renewal of the Mind be different now Jesus is one portal there are different names on it but there is you find that portal and uh emerge wiser stronger uh more capable because we have a world to save the cor of Miracle says that the people who've lived on this Earth this

is amazing to me it says that the people who've lived on the earth who've achieved the most have achieved like think about the people who have achieved the most right have achieved a fraction of what all of us are capable of that's how early this is in our evolutionary Journey right isn't that just Mind by that was justar my mind who was it George Elliot who says it is never too late to become who you might have been I love that and I after doing over 100 podcasts and I'm sure I'll continue to do hundreds

of more it there's so many of these themes that come up that are the similar or the same you know there one truth spoken in many different ways yeah and I think just the nature of the human developmental journey is that awareness is like a spiral staircase meaning we revisit core neurosis and patterns hopefully with greater levels of understanding and skill the the uh Eastern philosophies would say it's not like a spiral that it is a spiral it's only the Western mind that has this linear time thing the Eastern mind says no it's a spiral

yeah which is a much I think wiser more profound way of saying time so much of what I think we all can understand of Jesus being an unconditionally loving being and if you're going to I guess correlate Enlightenment with some sort of embid of unconditional love there are many times where experiencing conditional love like experiencing who we're not internally externally is like a guiding force to realizing who we are and so experiencing conditional love can help us realize no this is actually unconditional love is this other thing and um I would just like to ask

you personally I guess for your own life and journey and the in the Journey of approaching more unconditional love as like an a a day-to-day you know waking living Consciousness what have you found in your own personal Journey has been like the most difficult parts of yourself to love a difficult parts of myself to love well I think you come to understand about yourself as well as other people where you're bad is not where you're bad it's where you're wounded mhm and so there might be aspects of self that we don't want to look at

because we think well if that's true about me it's I'm bad and then you realize I would have had to have been very hurt in my life to have developed that as a coping mechanism I grew up in a generation of women who had to claw our way into certain door certain rooms in ways that younger women don't the door just opens for them now because every generation was served by the generation before so I know differently than a lot of women I know uh we grew uh F instead of f fing Nails is y

claws instead of fingernails yeah and then when the door opened easily enough we were still we it's almost like we said okay I can take my claws off now but they had become hardened and so I developed hardened parts of my personality that didn't have to be hard but I saw where it come from and I saw a lot of it as a generational thing and a woman pays such a price for this because if you're a man certain uh aspects of Personality are seen so much differently and there's so much misogyny and all that

so much ancient almost witch burning and all that uh that's a whole other topic but a really big thing for women let me tell you yeah yeah it's definitely more societally rewarded or seen as except for a man to be callous and tough and strong and all those things whether or not you know they they they will still suffer that in a different way I suppose as well but well I see it differently than you just said because I I think it's just masculine I I don't I don't think either any of us should suffer

from it m I don't think any of us should suffer from I mean look when it comes over into impatience or demanding qualities or you know I'm just not going to take this or something yes obviously we can all work on our style but we have to be really careful today because everybody's become so precious they're like nobody has permission to say this is how it needs to be yeah yeah I suppose you know if there is anything that's like a toxic masculinity there's toxic femininity as well you know there there is that boundary setting

providership energy that the masculine needs to bring in the book uh this is the difference between Mary and Jesus Jesus is the divine mascul you know we've enough with the toxic masculinity in a way we we we're so tired enough with the constant analysis you can't get to the light by constantly analyzing the darkness we have become you know we're talk so much about toxic masculinity I think that's why that show um nobody wants this is so popular right now because there's a man he's hot he's cool but he's also so good and everybody is

so hungry for that right now can we talk about doing it right can we talk about Divine masculine in men as well as women I've just seen that thing on on the internet and I don't know if it's real or staged the business meeting where the boss it's a zoom and the boss says to a woman who's in the meeting hey you're going to have to come on and I don't know if it states probably somebody's laughing me right now Marana stes but whatever it is it's true it's like d carak said it's true even

if it didn't happen so there two people at this business meeting and the boss and this one woman and he says hey you're going to have to come on you know turn your video on and she says I can't I'm at a a tanning salon and he says no no no no no you need to be at this meeting and she starts talking about how she doesn't want to be and whatever and he says no it's in the rules of the company that you have to be here or whatever he says I have have have

um have said this to you several times I I'm tired of this I'm going to atar whatever and she says you do that and I'll say you attacked me no he told her what the rules are yeah so you know this idea that you're attacking me yeah no I didn't attack you I told you I mean it's it is very true that the world is starving for healthy conscious Divine masculine leadership yeah absolutely and you know I I think so much I mean you can't ignore the interplay of both polarities and how they both affect

each other right like how there is not a lot of healthy conscious men because of the mothers right and because of the environment they grew up in as well and because of their fathers and it's like all intertwined I feel like so strongly but and i' I've been doing more Men's Work recently you know like helping like men's groups and um and my own and there is a deep call that I at least notice within the men to really show up as as as best as they can as a conscious leader for their self for

their family community in the world and um there have been people throughout history that are great examples of that Jesus being one and I think the world absolutely needs more of them right now not only that I think that there's been this craziness in the culture of making Men wrong yeah for being masculine I see a lot of stuff that I think you know you're no he's just being a man he's uh you know I think Pat Allen's work is really amazing and she talks about in any system there's the masculine and The Feminine and

in within any human being there's the masculine and The Feminine and within every relationship there's the masculine and The Feminine it has nothing to do with sex or sexuality and what I've learned when I'm at work let's say I'm at a lecture okay I'm the masculine element and The Feminine uh element is the audience it wouldn't be happening if I weren't there it wouldn't be happening if they weren't there but the social contract is is I'm and that's what you're here for what do I think but if I'm in that same mentality later at night

with a lover let's say after the talk um that that uh that same mentality would not work because I'm a heterosexual woman and I want to be feminine in the relationship that's not that my thoughts don't matter but it's a different um sense of where you're coming from when you are more surrendered to the leadership of someone not that you um not that you know you don't you let somebody you know lead you off a bridge right uh but that you realize somebody gets to be the masculine partner in this moment yeah that fluidity of

identity and being what's deed in in a moment um and not who we were in a previous one the chorus says that human behavior can be boiled down as either love or a call for love yeah that's what the course says the course says that um we should interpret all human behavior as either love or a call for love so if someone is behaving unkindly towards me the course of Miracle says that in that moment it's the wires got crossed they don't know how to love me show me love in that moment and get their

needs met they fell asleep to who I am so the course of Miracle says forgiveness is when I realize yes I can base my sense of this relationship on the evidence of my senses what they just said to me what I heard them say the look on their face the tone in their voice I can do that but the course says you are heir to the laws that Prevail within the world you identify with so if I think what you did to me was unkind and that's my perception of it then I will experience it

as unkind forgiveness is where I am willing to extend my perception beyond what my physical senses perceived to what my heart knows to be true which is you love me and in that moment you fell asleep to who I am and if I if I base my perception of you on what you're doing then I'm falling asleep to who you are and I'm falling asleep to who I am if I'm willing to just remain awake to who you are for my own sake then that is a miraculous corrective device right there doesn't mean I'm necessarily

supposed to continue in any kind of relationship with you necessarily have lunch with you do business with you but it means I don't have to remain on that wheel of suffering of the constant back and forth between us I think it's a really useful F framework just for like living life when we experience resistance in our life which is inevitable to a degree we're going to be able to use that perception as like how I am interacting the situation am I calling For Love or am I coming from love you know and is same same

for somebody else is there a subtle request or validation that they need from love or are they acting from Love and I've heard you speak to forgiveness which you mentioned as from the at least perspective of the true self is like the last illusion in term yeah the course of Miracles says forgiveness is an illusion but it's the illusion that leads Beyond illusion it's the illusion that leads Beyond illusion yeah yeah because it's an illusion because it's still something we're going through in this world takes us into the world Beyond this world which is beyond

concept but let's talk about Jesus in terms of that okay so we you and I might have lunch and I tell you you know I am really I really pissed because such and such happen and you might look at me and go you're bigger than this come on give it up that's come on and I go thank you for saying that that's exactly what I needed but it might be something where it's not so simple as just lien up it was a serious wound was a serious betrayal it was a serious undermining it was a

serious theft it was a serious hurt okay but the principle is the same I have to be willing to get off that cross I have to be willing to see it differently so if it's such a trigger or a wound that it's like I can't do it myself you say to Jesus okay now I know you're all perfect and stuff and like you're completely actualized and pure perception and I know that Miracles occur when the mind is purified I'm not there okay I think what she did to me or what he did to me blah

blah blah but I'm willing to see it as you did so he says in the chorus my mind joined with your mind can shine away the ego so you say to Jesus all right I'm willing I'm willing to see her the way you see her to to see him to hear him to experience this on the other side in the resurrected state so then Jesus is over here and Jesus okay great he look to the person and he goes I don't know I like her right he's like I like her you go well I'd be

willing to like her and he says allow me in allow me in and I there's a story um I wrote it in one of my other books but to me many years ago and I think it was in the 1980s but I remember it when it was because I was getting acrylic fingernails and there was a woman who came to my lectures and she did these acrylic fingernails and I would go to her house I went there one day and she had some girlfriends there and they were all talking and I didn't know these people

I'm just having my nails done and there these women are talking and there's this one woman who when she speaks is is like fingernails on a Blackboard for me it sounded so affected to me so and so I think that what you should do I don't I don't even know I don't remember the specifics but I remember that I had wild judgment on the tone of this woman's voice okay but I also realize the irony that here this woman who is working on my fingernails thinks I'm beyond that you know she probably has no idea

what I'm thinking so I do you know I've learned a long time ago if I practice what I preach my life works well and I said God I'm willing to see her differently that's the course says the moment of power salvation changing of your mind begins when you consider the possibility there might be a better way I'm willing to see this differently just in my heart silence I don't know if it was 2 minutes later 3 minutes later 5 minutes later one of the people said to the woman whose voice I had such uh judgment

on is it true that they let your father out of jail now I'm just listening and it was I come to understand one of those cases like you see on television where a man had two children one of whom was this young woman and he literally brought them up in a dungeon literally they did not know how to talk it was one of those really horrible situations she was what I don't know 18 20 something like that by the time someone rescued them she had had to learn how to talk her tone of voice didn't

change I changed 10 minutes before I was like what's with this chick my God to such admiration for her bravery for her effort she didn't change I change by definition when you're judging someone the course of Miracle says you're wrong even if you're right you you don't see the whole thing and so the course says it is the purpose of your life to learn to think as God thinks what are you thinking God would not be thinking about that person what is God thinking that you're not thinking about that person and if you can't see

ask it's that's such a powerful story and I just think of I I take that example that you just gave and you can like put that and project that understanding to everything every single person that you encounter in life you look at The Dominoes from a thousand ancestors back and every single behavior in action and thought and word up until the moment of anyone's life that cultivated them to be who they are how they think how they act then you would have perfect understanding as to why they are transgressing you or other people in the

way they are of course people need to be held accountable for their actions and at the same token you can't judge and understand something at the the same time and absolutely and so the course of Miracles says you think you need to understand someone to know to judge whether or not decide whether or not they're worthy of your love but I tell you until you love them you can't understand them so if we had kamla Harris and Donald Trump in a room for 24 hours and the space was created where they felt perfect permission just

tell us the story of their lives we would be deeply in love with both of them by the end of the day our politics might not have changed you know we still have strong feelings about who should exercise the you know the leverages of power um but I and I think that's what's so much worse today nobody gives anybody the benefit of the doubt today um and that has tremendous repercussions in terms of our collective decision making political I think another useful tool that found I think it was in my conversation with Dr John D

Martini in terms of talking about human behavior and values and judgment in particular like when anybody's when you judge anything that somebody does to reflect on where you've uh exhibited that behavior or thought to varying degrees in your own life it diffuses the Judgment immediately I feel like I've had that so much with young women oh look at how that that outfit she's got on and oh my God the way she's throwing her sexuality around me mar man think back a few years those women are nothing compared to who you were so you know it's

like getting older really does that one it's like oops I forgot few years back yeah yeah it's so funny how smaller bandwidth can be for yeah yeah yeah that wasn't just me I was much worse you've done so much amazing work over your career spreading these messages of love reminders of our own Power and Light what do you feel like if you had a boil down from your previous 16 books and all the seminars and teachings you've been doing what do you boil down to your core message try to forgive the whole thing um you

know I I don't think it was my message um I write about great religious and spiritual traditions and themes Universal themes and they do come down to love one another and then Life Works and when we don't it doesn't once again I think when he says on the course my way is not difficult it's just different it's simple enough but life is complicated when you hear God cannot do for us what he cannot do through through US mhm how does that what does that change in your life like how do you how does it means

you're responsible you know it's like you can't say dear God um I'm going to stay with this dysfunctional Behavior but I don't want to experience all the craziness that results from it no he's not going to he he set up the law of cause and effect for your protection and he's not going to change it once God sets up a law it's nothing God creates is changeable so every thought has a cause every action has a reaction so I can't say God make this wonderful unless I'm willing to say God show me my part in

this I am willing to change on the level of cause and that's what he says Jesus says I in the in the course he says I can't you know just change the effects in your life but if you will allow me to and if you will request it so that I'm not violating your free will I will help you on the level of cause I will help you change your mind I will help you change your mind and it's I'm also going to put a magnifying glass on the places where you're not yet the person

I need you to be so it's you know a a spiritual detox is like a physical de detox stuff has to come up in order to be released but that's how we become uh like you said those The Hidden Jewel of who you are behind all that it's a mask we we grow masks and they Harden they become uh emotional psychological postures and they hide the truth of who we are too often the message and symbol of Christ is uh is so power F I was just in Brazil and the went to the Christos the

Christ statue you know and throughout so many different ancient wisdom Traditions there is the balance of polarities and then the center in rosicrucian Traditions you know the armonic and luciferic impulses within us the masculine feminine yin yang and for those that strive to seek a life of alignment it's so much of it is just in what you think how you act and and who you are in the world and I'm just curious what your thoughts are on um any any uh mystical interpretations that you feel like we haven't covered today that would support people realizing

that alignment and coming into Center in their in the Christ's energy I think there are different concepts and jargons and languages that are always fun to go over but I don't think that the sort of diletant quality of oh and this says that and this says that is as important right now as going deep with one that really speaks to you and the course of Miracles does not claim to have a monopoly on Truth um no particular uh Journey spiritual journey has a monopoly on truth but the Mystic Jesus is one uh portal and for

me understanding it more deeply that Mary is a symbol of the sleeping beauty within all of us which is also the fairy tales tell the same story the course of Miracle says in the Bible it says that Adam fell asleep and nowhere does it say that he woke up and we're living at a time when it's time to initiate this Great Awakening Awakening from the Slumber an angel tells Mary wake up go to the roof you have to go to the higher mind cuz down here it's all the assault of cacophony of social media and

the events of the world you can't hear go up onto the roof go to the higher mind meditate get silent walk through nature the angel Gabriel the thoughts of God tell her you were going to give birth your humanness is going to be impregnated by God and we're all pregnant now with that new birth of self mothered by our humanness fathered by God and that is the Christ it's neither male nor female the Divine masculine is Joseph you'll know when to get out of town when to come back when it's safe Herod the ego will

be coming after you want to kill this little baby and you will be told how to navigate all this which is Joseph and as you grow into this beingness and you have your bar mitzvah which Jesus had in the temple you will be ready and your Ministry you will do things like turning the loaves into fishes right because abundance will occur naturally according to your need and you will be able to heal the sick which is exactly the stuff that's happening right now you will be able to raise the dead the dead in places in

ourselves and the ego is going to come after you and you're going to experience it and as you hold your in Consciousness I remember once I had had a breakup my best friend to a since died I was in a romantic relationship for a long time it broke up and I'm crying and crying and crying and he's he starts like he's reading from a maryan Williamson book to me the relationship is eternal it's just changing form the love he gave you is real the love you gave him is real the love can never be destroyed

nothing else and every time he would say this I would cry louder right and he just kept saying it and I just kept crying and he kept saying it and at one point he said should I shut up and I said please don't shut up in other words let me cry there was nothing in him that was coming across like you shouldn't cry because it was while you were crying download this while you are crying it's like while you're sick walk around listening to these tapes or whatever and uh and then God's Will has never

not been done it has already occurred the fact what the course of Miracles yes you know one of the things before I ever read the course I never understood this idea that you were bad so if Jesus suffers God is H you know he s he he died for your sins what you're bad Jesus you suffer a lot I'll feel better what kind of God right and and so the way it's presented in the chorus is that Jesus it's the last useless Journey he demonstrated the complete nullification of ego and destructiveness and fear so he

says in the course I don't need you to join me in crucifixion that's done join me in Resurrection and I think that's where we are now I think it's really important that we remember the conversation that you and I have been having today is happening all over the world not the same language same system same whatever there's this Collective yearning the Arad Roy line of New World struggling to be born we're not alone you know so many times I see is in audiences somebody will express some deep pain and I'll ask people I'll say think

right now please of the deepest pain that you've ever experienced the deepest suffering you've ever experienced please bring it to your mind and then I'll say it is statistically reasonable to assume that the person to your right has suffered that much as well it is statistically reasonable to assume that the person you're left has suffer that much as well in front of you and behind you and so forth now look at the room again because it's going to be a different room if you really look around the room and you go as much as I've

suffered so of day your heart opens and that's what's happening we're all yearning to be better we're yearning for the world to be okay you have to be a real adult right now to not get this is a serious moment but the good news is people want they they want there's a yearning and I saw it when I ran for president the problem is not the people people are ready to rise to a noble a noble cause and a noble people want that we're hardwired to create the good the true the Beautiful the holy and

so whether it comes to a secular religious spiritual whatever if you do it it works and you go to the gym it works works you do the lectures of the course it works you read books like this you take it in you allow those aha moments to illumin your thinking it works you go to AA you go to the meetings it works and I think that that's where we need to be with each other now I think we need to be a whole we have been so trained by modernity in the last few years to

just embellish or wound your trauma you're enough and I know from trauma I I know from trauma but at a certain point the question has got to be what great thing are you doing and how can I help we've been infantilized we've allowed ourselves to be infantilized I think the higher Consciousness movement we've actually contributed to it and we will not literally we will not get out of here alive or at least our grandkids won't unless men stop acting like boys and women stop acting like girls and we support each other in that and and

you yes I can have compassion for your pain and still call you to be your strength and know that I see your strength I see the part of you that's going to heal from this I see the part of you that's going to move through this and even be more of a man more of a woman more of a human being that's what we need to be right now and there's an urgency in the air and it's we were born for this and that's what I believe is happening right now I think so often we're

under the illusion especially in like the higher Consciousness Community there's like this illusion of once I'm Healed or to a certain point then I'll be able to serve or support others um which I understand where that's coming from and like of course if you're ill like you can't really help somebody physically you know and so much of our healing comes in the service to others absolutely and and you you you you learn from your failures as well as your successes and you you that's just a delay technique once I'm an enlightened Master I'll show up

of us can wait till that but also God doesn't love you less in the places where you're wounded God doesn't love you less and God doesn't have less use for you it's like um it's the story of The Prodigal Son the father is more excited to see the son who left and came back when a bone is broken it's stronger in those places it's like that um um book Alice Miller the drama of the gifted child have you ever read that it's a classic probably love it she says a lot of times people who weren't

listen to his children become therapists because they really get how important it is for people to be listened to so they become very good listeners and like you said your healing you're serving while you're healing and that's part of the way you heal the course of Miracle says you're not perfect or you wouldn't have been born but it is your mission to become perfect here we have to evolve into the next stage of humanity this is a very perilous time if we don't but a time of such truly amazing possibilities you know there was a

man I can't remember his name at the moment he's very well known in the ministerial field he was the minister at a very famous Church in New York Riverside Church and I was on a panel with him many years ago and we were talking about biblical symbols and trials and tribulations we're living in a time of trials and tribulations and he said but the time of trials and tribulations is also a time of signs and wonders and one last thing you talked about Armageddon we touched on it so the traditional interpretation is there's going to

be this great cataclysm this great catastrophe after which after this global war uh there will be a thousand years of peace and Jesus will be will return the course of Miracles says the second coming is when he shall be perceived he never went away the truth of who you are simply we're going to see it in one another but the issue of Armageddon is for one person their divorce was their Armageddon it's like we talked about crucifixion for another person they're they're getting sober with her Armageddon for another person grief over the lost one like

we were talking about the idea here is that we get Wiser from these things so if you if we take the wisdom you got from going through your armag and the wisdom you got from going through your Armageddon and the wisdom you got from going through your Armageddon and the wisdom I've gotten from going through my arm again and we pull it we can form a field of wisdom so great that we will prevent the great Global cataclysm because it won't be necessary we got it we eat had we each had ate our piece of

it like in Hinduism they talk about eats it you had to eat it you had to digest it you had to m it wasn't you know but you got it and you you let go everything except the nourishment of it and I think that's what's happening and um that's it I love it yeah we got to sink our teeth into life and really discover what is our unique puzzle piece to contribute like you all said we all have our unique wisdom based off of our own experience I don't even think we have to figure it

out just be in the moment of it mhm there it's not about figuring it out I think figuring it out is almost a way of trying to distance from it it's a revelatory process yeah revelatory yeah I always love talking to you thank you I love talking to you too I have great respect for you thank you oh likewise thank you and we have another little talk tomorrow we're going to go give yeah yeah yeah is there any last words you have that you'd like to share with our audience understanding the context of this conversation

anything else you want to add I just always like to leave that space in case there is well I do give um some onl online classes about these kinds of things yeah people can find out about that at marianne.com y uh I'm writing a lot about my thoughts not only about spirituality but also Politics on my substack and uh just thanks that's all thank you and you guys can check out the Mystic Jesus also which is your new book the mind of love which is exciting we'll leave links always down in the description before yeah

got a plug and yeah until next time everyone take care let us know in which ways as always this was uniquely impactful for you and what your relationship is with Jesus because I think it's ever evolving and uh there's this Resurgence of people discovering the true energy of Christ and so Maryann thanks for those powerful reminders today and everyone until next time be well [Music]