Francesca Stavrakopoulou | The Weekly [EXTENDED INTERVIEW]

we cannot possibly understand Western culture and the history of Western culture without the Bible Professor Franchesca stav rapo is the head of Theology and religion at the University of exitor in the UK she's a renowned biblical scholar who's devoted her life to looking for the historical evidence of one of the world's most important books but I'm not a fundamentalist who takes every word of the Bible as fact I think the truth is much more interesting would you please welcome Francesa Franchesca seapo I can't believe I stumbled on Francesca what are the odds of that um

so we're going to we're just going to talk about the Bible and I want to learn more about it first off who wrote it and when some people think that Moses wrote it which he didn't because Moses didn't exist so then you have to think well who did write it and it's basically a collection of different um authors from centuries and centuries so probably with the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament you're talking about at at least 500 years in the making with the New Testament you're talking about probably 150 to 200 years in the making

but basically it was all written by men with daddy issues so so here's the thing there are people right now writing complaint letters just on the first answer to the first question right so I'm wondering why is taking a historical approach to the Bible so controversial it's controversial because when you do take a historical approach so look at the archaeological evidence for events or people described in the Bible it's very hard to find corroborating evidence to support the biblical claims about the past so once you start saying did this actually happen or not so was

Jonah swallowed by a big fish obviously no he wasn't swallowed by a big fish was there an exodus from Egypt no there wasn't an exodus so once you start doing that then you have to start doubting The credibility of all the other claims that the Bible makes and that's why people get annoyed because for some reason people like to think that the Bible's true right people like people like pets like to think that the Bible is true they really well get back the the first thing one of the first things you said was Moses wasn't

real yeah right now we've just had pesak the celebration of freedom of the Jews yeah led by Moses to Freedom yeah and you're saying he wasn't real no he probably wasn't so there's a lot about him that's really interesting so in his tradition the Traditions that are told about him so Moses is an Egyptian name um the Hebrew Bible writers kind of say the name is derived from a Hebrew verb meaning to draw out of the water so when he was a baby and kind of set into the basket of reads but actually so so

far story checks out so far it checks out except that Moses himself he's there there's no evidence for him being a historical figure like Abraham Isaac Jacob all of that it's all made up um but but he's drawn on different sorts of religious figures that probably were around very broadly in the culture so he's like a bit of a magician so you know he's like woo look at this star yeah we we all like a good magician but some people want to believe it's more than that how do you know like when you say none

of that was real it was all made up how do you know because dating the texts you can see in terms of the Hebrew words that are used in terms of some of the details like references to camels there were no camels in that part of the world at that time that kind of stuff you lied to me CES be de but yeah that kind of detail tells you that these texts are written many centuries after the events that they're describing and then you can see the ideology well why are they telling the story about

Escape From Slavery and oppression and movement into a promised land it's because the the writers themselves were in their own kind of slavery and oppression but in Babylon in the 6th Century BC not in Egypt hundreds and hundreds of years before that right does that make sense yeah it does it makes it makes perfect sense but you love the Bible yeah yeah I do why like if you if you if you like go well that's not real that's not real he's not a guy yeah yeah why do you love it so much because it's like

the most amazing collection of ancient literature it's like it's like reading it's like going into a time capsu it's like time traveling and you get to to read all about these different sorts of myths and legends like you know one of the most important myths in in the Old Testament Hebrew Bible is the idea that God had to fight a massive Sea Dragon to create the world now you don't get that in Genesis you get hints of it in Genesis but you do get it hang on what are the hints the hints no like I'm

just curious like it's like uh yeah I on the agre like what was it like what's so one of the hints is um on the such and such a day when God was making the world he made the great sea monsters and the word that they don't actually do that in the Bible but the word that they use is the ancient word for this it's tanin which is this ancient mythical watery ferocious chaos Monster like a sea dragon but then we read all about his actual battle with the sea dragon in the book of Isaiah

and in the Book of Job And in the Psalms so it's all there it's just that everyone kind of privileges the beginning of of the book because most people get bored by the time they get to like Leviticus and they don't bother reading there's just so much admin in Leviticus it's like this is what you do with mil put it in a drawer see if it grows call a rabbi burn your house down like it's it's a but detail's important in that kind of thing you know particular mil is it still plagues us today um

so I've been to Jerusalem the old city of Jerusalem and it's amazing when the places mentioned in the Bible are in front of you like I ofs and the that these are Reales starts to make you feel like this is more true why does it become more compelling because it's in a place that exists whether you're you know an atheist like me or you're religious like other people the Bible has played such a massive role in our lives right from when we're kids that somehow to be in these places I I think you can't but

help just feel engaged and and excited and curious and to go somewhere like Jerusalem where obviously the Bible still matters because as we we know Jerusalem is is still the kind of the heart the kind of the central place for Judaism Christianity and and obviously Islam as well and we know the political tensions we see it on the news all the time you can't but help feel impacted by that now you've already pointed out a few things that weren't real in the Bible what what was real like I believe the the Garden of Eden you

believe was a real place well I believe it's based on a real place it's based on the Jerusalem Temple that was um supposedly built by Solomon and was destroyed and we think probably historically it was destroyed by the Babylonians in the 6th Century BC and the temple itself is meant to be like the dwelling place of the god and like humans God wants a nice house and he wants a nice garden and it's the meeting place between the Heavenly realm and the Earthly realm and so it was filled with trees and it had like it

was a very sensory experience gu his Temple there were nice smells of incense and that's what the story of Eden is based on it's a Bas it's the idea is that human beings or a king in this case was in a very privileged position like like that with God he messes up he gets expelled from the garden so he's like thrown out of the temple and that's when the temple historically is destroyed and the Kings of Israel no longer exist so if you were editing the Bible what what would you what would you take out

is there anything that you'd REM test um no um that's I mean that's pretty controversial surely not all of the new test okay Paul anything written by St Paul just all of Paul yes that's like taking Paul out of the Beatles he was pretty important no because because Paul wrote Paul wrote a huge amount of the New Testament he was by and large the founder of the church he is the founder of Christian what what have you got against Paul he goes on and on and on it is a bit like he took everything he

wrote like he oh I wrote some letters to the Corinthians I'll put that in did the Corinthians ever write back you know we don't know if they did maybe maybe but he's so down on Humanity he's just really kind of like oh you humans you're so bad you're so sinful and it's like oh come on there we're not that bad the Hebrew Bible everyone thinks that the god of the Hebrew Bible the Old Testament is the kind of like vengeful hateful angry one who's like kicking ass all the time and that the god of the

New Testament is kind of like oh I love you but it's not like that at all the god of the New Testament he's gone he's like not interested at all in humanity like he's not really present in the New Testament it's all about Jesus because that's the thing like early on in the Bible God rocks up like God is literally there and he goes hey Abraham do this Moses hears some Ten Commandments they'll they'll be and Ian he's talking directly to people and then it becomes people saying oh you just missed him God was here

and he said this and and then by the end of it it's like I know a guy who spoke to a dude who saw exactly and to be honest you know Paul started off as a Jew like Jesus Jesus was a Jew I think he'd be spinning in his grave if he knew what was really going on in his name now he was a Jew he was a very uh passionate Jewish man you know like John the Baptist was probably sort of Jesus's initial teacher and like Jesus kind of then needs this Breakaway movement you

know it's it's kind of like you know some pop group like the Beatles like kind of splitting up and like John going off with Yoko it's it's problematic that is I'm sorry that is the most controversial thing I've ever heard anyone say in my life is that the career of Jesus is like John teaming up with Yoko kind is extraordinary but here's the thing okay like you're an atheist yeah but you're passionate about the Bible yeah but you can understand that people could be quite angry at all of the things that you you're saying right

now people are always angry with me because I'm an atheist but because I'm a woman because I'm a professor so what is harder in your line of work being an atheist or a woman I think being a woman is still harder than being an atheist because just because I'm an atheist because people can't say to me because most people in my field most academics are Christian or Jewish so I say to them I haven't got the same emotional investment in these texts as you do but nonetheless I still think these texts are really important they

are the absolute Bedrock of Western cultural preference and values and it's so it's important it's responsible I think to critique those ideas and say where do they come from and how kind of representative should this be how important should these texts be the Bible is a cultural icon whether we like it or not whether we believe in it or not so that's why it's important to study it um but I think I I've got one up on most other Scholars because I I'm not invested in it it's not it's not going to I'm me my

soul's not going to hell or to Heaven because I don't believe in a soul and I don't believe in hell and I don't believe do you ever worry that you might hurt people by saying what you think is the factual truth about the Bible no cuz I I don't think I'm not like some kind of Richard Dawkins figure um who's obviously the most famous atheist in the world probably like he's he's the John L of atheism yeah you're right yeah but he's rude to people he's unkind to people I think um and he tells people

that they're stupid I don't think that people that have faith or belief are stupid at all that's their choice and I recognize that there are a lots of different ways of being in the world so at the same time so I try and be polite to people I'll say what I think I'll say yeah I don't think Moses existed other Scholars would disagree with me a lot of Scholars would agree with me um but I I don't want to be rude about it so I respect other people because I'm a human being and I I

like people um you believe what you want to believe that's completely fine but your Bible belongs to me as well you know it belongs to all of us it's like had this huge impact globally so it's not just your text it's mine as well so I've got every right to study it these books shape the world yeah more than any other books have ever done how do you think we're using them wrong uh well our gender politics for a start um is completely biblically based the idea that there are just two genders that they are

made by God and in the image of God that equally that idea has massively damaged the environment because human beings think that they're like the best um and that they're at the top of like kind of the Apex of creation and therefore that they can go around you kind of raping and pillaging the world and and its resources and its animals so you know those are just two examples sexis ISM patriarchy and environmental damage that that the Bible's responsible for can I just ask you to fact chick something for me very quickly okay because I

okay I have this Noah's Arc um toy all right so so so so here's the ark right there's he like there that's Noah happy can I can I start straight away white dude right yeah so Noah was not white no okay okay car so okay well I think that raises an obvious question about the elephants [Laughter] um so so it's two elephants there we go 2 by two um we we have two Rhino a bit more textbook uh 2 by two and this is the big one um we have two lions 2 by two yes

I'm just wondering how successful would Noah have been repopulating the world with two male lions yeah does that say that this is historically inaccurate or or Noah was a bit sketchy on animal husbandry either he was sketchy or he didn't really get the right instructions from God i' I'd be more inclined to blame God God was very busy he's got I'm busy making a flood grabed some Lions I don't have time to do everything this is why I love the Bible honestly well we loved having you here to talk about it thank you so much

for your time would you please thank Franchesca stck and Paulo thank you so much oh