Joe Rogan Experience #2269 - Bret Weinstein

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day what's up good to see you my friend great to see you Joe wild times almost unbelievable yeah the last time you were here we were really worried about what was going to happen and now it seems like we're in a completely different timeline yeah I I have to say in addition to being just overarchingly worried about what was going to happen to the Republic and to uh the globe I was personally worried about what would happen

to people like you and me if we lost yeah probably wouldn't be so good for business they probably would have cracked down there's that but I I must say on my darker days I had I had concerns even beyond that and you probably should yeah yeah in light of what we now know you know it's um this us Aid thing going on you know Mike Benz has been on that like a pitbull and uh I've been following him on X and he's going to come back on here and kind of explain everything but he explained

it the last time he was here and I don't think I really grasped it until elon's six wizards they brought in some young Wizards to go in there and go over the books and they are just finding crazy [ __ ] it's great and it's so interesting I was listening to uh a leftwing podcast today I like to mix it up up you know I listened to all kinds of different stuff and and it was like I was listening to a different world like they weren't even talking about all of this corruption and all this

obvious buying of influence instead they were talking about Aid overseas and how people are going to starve and like it's mindboggling and there's also I have to say I'm just I'm upset at the general pattern of a failure to recognize how right those of us who hypothesized that there was a racket that had overtaken our entire governance structure we turn out to be absolutely right about this and no one's going to mention it that that's mind-blowing it's very strange that the media is ignoring it especially the leftwing media it's just too big of a win

for the right and so they're just ignoring it and then they're just highlighting the good things that USA did which I'm sure it probably did probably had to do some good things to like at least justify its existence while as a cover story I'm not even sure maybe it doesn't change anything obviously this was a mechanism used to funnel money to all sorts of things that we didn't vote on that don't make sense in light of our constitutional structure and uh I'm you know I obviously have concerns like everybody else about where this train takes

us but seeing that structure broken up is it's a huge relief they gave $27 million to the George Soros prosecutor fund so our own government is funding this left-wing lunatic who is hiring the most insane prosecutors who are letting people out of jail who commit violent crimes and that's that's exactly how this racket worked is that the ability to tax the American public and then effectively get us to pay for being propagandized for being surveilled that that's the game and um I don't know what era we currently live in obviously there's a lot that's confusing

about what the Trump Administration is up to but I I don't think any reasonable person could be unhappy that we are exiting that era I'm going to read off some of the things that this guy Kota the great on Twitter uh listed and this is off the water show uh USA uh $20 million for Iraqi Sesame Street $2 million for Moroccan pottery classes $1 million to tell Vietnam to stop burning trash $27 million to give gift bags to illegals $27 million um $330 million to help afghanis grow crops at crops wonder what those crops are

what's their biggest crop Brett uh it's going to be the pop seeds for bagels I'm think op $300 million oh $200 million uh on an unused Afghani Dam $250 million on an unused Afghani Road this is wild I mean some of this stuff is really really crazy well yes and you know USA ID is of course riddled through whatever International Madness it is that caused us to open our Southern border and facilitate an invasion through the Daran Gap so you know seeing that structure laid bare is it it it almost feels like it can't be

real like it can't have been this close to the surface and yet here we are they were spending is is this number correct I think the number that I read was $600 million every two months to ship in illegals uh sounds right I don't know the number offand but uh what the [ __ ] well you have to you have to realize that basically we had a shadow apparatus functioning and it involves all kinds of things it involves payoffs to people who didn't deserve them it involves Contracting to uh entities that were necessary to get

the work done so I I don't think we can properly understand what these numbers mean and what they're actually being used for but it it was a racket well we were always wondering like why is our debt so high why is the national debt so high like why is our deficit so insane well this is it I mean the one how about the one where they paid $236 billion like for Chargers do you know that they were trying to set up Chargers you mean car chargers and they only Built a couple of them excuse me

$40 billion for electric car ports eight ports have been built um you know how crazy that is $40 billion I do carports but I have to say as much as this is shocking I wasn't surprised I thought that effectively our entire system had been turned into a racket and that we were basically being fed a cover story from it and it's weird to now have the evidence of this but I think it was apparent that whatever had taken over our system wasn't interested in the well-being of average people that it was interested in the power

of the state to take people's resources and redistribute them and that that really is what's been going on for most of our adult lives and it's also important to note that this Progressive left leaning like radical left arm of the government of the country was manufactured yes it's all manufactured it's it's all manufactured and supported it's not organic which is really fascinating about the other side because the other side the reaction to it is organic like the say what you want about the the you know the Trump Administration and what you think about him that

was an organic shift where people were like e [ __ ] enough enough yes it was an overdue reaction yeah the cover story that what we were up to was writing past wrongs was so pernicious and pervasive that it was hard to get our footing to challenge it right but it it shouldn't really be surprising that that movement wasn't organic of course it was induced it was a cover story for theft and we're going to be waking up to the magnitude of that theft for quite some time have you ever heard of the audience effect

it is a psychological theory that our Behavior changes when we know we're being watched and here's the thing we are being watched when you use the internet data Brokers watch and record everything you do online even if you're using a private browser but you don't have to become a slave to the digital surveillance State you can free yourself with expressvpn with expressvpn 100% of of your online activity is rerouted through secure encrypted servers that hide your IP address that means you can get to use the internet with real freedom and privacy expressvpn is easy to

use it takes just one click and it works on all of your devices even smart TVs use it on up to eight devices at the same time and protect your whole family with just one subscription the best part podcast listers can get four extra months of expressvpn for free at expressvpn.com Rogan or by tapping the banner that's expressvpn.com Rogan or tap the banner if you're watching on YouTube you can get four free months by scanning the QR code on screen or by clicking the link in the description I think this is going to take years

chamath said that it's going to be like I ran Contra on steroids that's what he said he said when you get to the bottom of all this it's going to be insane because they haven't even got to the Medicaid yet they have hav even got to the medical stuff they there's so much they haven't even tapped into where they think the real motherload of fraud is yes and I must say that there's also another aspect to this which we have to be careful about which is that the um the justifiable anger at discovering what it

is that we've been dragged into as a nation is going to make it hard to see where the limits ought to be in terms of upending this stuff in other words at the moment I'm cheering for the wrecking ball right break this stuff up never again um but there are what's that Jamie read an article about the spending on the Chargers they said that they haven't actually according to this they haven't actually spent all that money yet what do they do with it it's it's they've spent some of it to make some of those things

but it's just it hasn't been allocated yet it's a long article going through all the spending that's been done uh it's on factcheck.org um factcheck.org who runs that I don't know some of the charges have been made some of them are on the way to be making they've built 61 at 15 stations since mid August or through mid August 14,900 more are currently in some stage of development but that's where it goes into like where they are what they have to be done and who's getting the money from them has to be done through a

long process from each state yeah the question is how can we get a proper accounting as you point out who the hell is factcheck.org that's the problem with factchecking organizations that should really be illegal like I think if you're a factchecking organization we should have stringent rules on what influence is being pedal like what who's paying for these fact Checkers who's behind the scenes what what is the deter it should be very transparent how did you determine whether or not this was true or false you know because there are a lot of things that get

said like I don't know if you saw this but Elizabeth Warren got confronted and it's on uh Twitter this morning she got confronted about the uh amount of money that she's received from pharmaceutical drug companies she said she's never received any money from pharmaceutical drug companies and never received any monies from any packs and then of course underneath it Community notes strikes again and of course she she received Millions yeah she's a [ __ ] liar well and it you know it's an arms race you know how how can Pharma cloak the money that it's

giving so that there's plausible deniability at the point that that Elizabeth Warren is confronted or or Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders was hilarious only 1.5 billion only 1.5 million out of 200 million only 1.5 yep that's what I saw as try to say nothing only the hardworking people the hardworking people of this country gave me money well I don't think I don't think the Democrats understand that it's over and that there was a vast infrastructure that made their feeble arguments viable and that infrastructure is now collapsing people are far more aware and their lives aren't going

to function anymore well it makes sense now that we're seeing these numbers CU okay this was what was funding the infrastructure now we get it because it wasn't otherwise it's organic this is the will of the people this is how people are move it's not it wasn't that at all this was all organic and it was really about control and money it had nothing to do with helping people making people better giving Aid to foreign countries that's all a cloak and dagger [ __ ] show the reality was it's about money yeah it's well always

it's always about power and limited resources and this was a new game taking place at a level that was hard to believe and therefore many of us couldn't see it did you see how they used software to map out 55,000 different NOS that were used as a a branch of the democratic system no I didn't catch that I could send it to you I think I sent it to you Jamie right we went over it on the podcast before it's so nutty that this was all kind of like hidden until they started using software to

try like figure out like what and and map out where all the influence goes and the crazy thing about the Nos and this is one of the things that Mike Benz has gone like so deep into it it's essentially like they contribute to the Democratic party the government pays them it's like it's all this like weird sort of like circular money transfer thing that's out in the open no it's a it's a positive feedback the whole idea is power is utilized to free resources that Garner more power and it is the exact inverse of the

system that we are supposed to have yeah um it's very interesting where we're headed that's a harder question where we're headed is uh we going to own Gaza somehow this is it so fractal technology Maps previously hidden connections between 55,000 liberal NOS revealing how tax dollars allegedly flowed through major institutions like Vanguard and Morgan Morgan Stanley to groups like the Chinese Progressive Association this breakthrough tracking system can now monitor every dollar going to every NGO exposing intricate funding webs that traditional Tech couldn't detect so example black voters matter funds $4 million distribution network was invisible

until Quantum mapping revealed dozens of subsidiary organizations the unprecedented mapping reveals a pre previously hidden web of financial relationships and that's what it's really all about yes the problem is I you know sometimes when I see like a list of preposterous scientific projects that have gotten big grants mhm I read it and I think I some of they all sound Preposterous but I don't know some of these things are likely to have had a good explanation and it just is not apparent in the sound bite and some of them are every bit as Preposterous as

as they seem and so I can't look at a map like that and say what I would expect if the system was healthy so I'm I'm cautious about it I I don't think the system was healthy I think the system was a racket from one end the other and I've been saying that we've been living in the era of malignant governance where there's basically no element of this you couldn't turn off and make us better but we have to be suspicious also of our understanding of how a properly functioning system would graph in some something

like that um so that we don't we don't overrun the train station when we get there right and I will just say I was I was talking to a friend of mine who runs an Alaskan Native Corporation which I don't know if we've talked about Alaskan native corporations before but this is a um a corporation the it it competes for federal contracts it has some advantages in the competition for federal contracts and all of the profits go to Alaska Natives and it is finding itself in a very difficult to navigate battle because of all of

the successes of Doge so the Alaskan Native Corporation is utilizing something called the 8A program the 8A program is a program that gives advantages to disadvantaged people and at some point that ability to use the 8A program was granted to Alaskan native corpor operations well the 88 program is now under attack by some large corporations Federal contractors who do not like competition from things like Alaskan native corporations and it is being portrayed as if it was based on race which it isn't anybody can use it it's not a race-based program but because people are in

a mood to dismantle all of this leftwing solution making corruption the the these Mega corporations are finding it easy to Target the 8A program and they are persuading members of Congress that uh it doesn't belong and this is going to be uh a tragic loss if this program which works well is dismantled in the fervor to go after all of the stuff that should never have been what does this program do exactly it provides a mechanism for disadvantaged people to compete for Grants it's really not based anybody you know so did you just have to

live in Alaska no no no so they're two separate things Alaskan native corporations are for Alaskan natives right um Bas when you say Alaskan natives you mean people who live in Alaska or no no I mean uh Arctic peoples Arctic people so the original people of Alaska before we bought it for 50 bucks from the Russians exactly we bought it for 50 bucks from the Russians and then the after the discovery of oil in pruto Bay the US government realized that it could not afford to give the natives of Alaska Sovereign land rights because it

was going to need to do things like put a pipeline to transport oil so instead of giving them reservations and Sovereign land rights it gave them uh some abilities to compete for federal contracts uh as Alaskan native corporations so it's an interesting program that does a lot of good but it's connect ction to the 8A program now has the good that it does in Jeopardy and I don't know how many stories there are like that but we need to be careful that our excitement about watching all of this nonsense torn apart uh doesn't cause us

to tear apart things that actually are functioning well and don't suffer from the the defects of the Dei Madness got it so this thing that allows disadvantaged people to get grants like how is it structured oh that I couldn't tell you okay um that I couldn't tell you we could look into it it's it's easy to look up it's the 8A program uh help small businesses owned by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals to compete for federal contracts provides training and technical assistance to help businesses compete categorizes eligible businesses as veteran owned women-owned minority owned or

owned by a person with disabilities certification does not guarantee contract Awards but it can help businesses pursue new opportunities so that's this is a this is a question right the categories like veteran owned uh woman owned and minority owned like what why is that why is wom owned and minority owned would why would they you know what I mean that's one of especially women-owned I do are you is this Gro is that what you're looking at there um is that what that is oh that's Google um benefits for Native owned businesses program helps native communities

develop economic Ventures that support their communities profits generated from a native owned participant go back to their native communities yeah so I'm not in a position to answer detailed questions about ADA but what I would say is there are some good things there there are quite a number of success stories that uh this is exactly what we want for uh disadvantaged people Prov a social safety net yeah not only a social safety net but something that provides an opportunity hey build a business right this is what we want you to do this is the mythology

of our system is you know pull yourself out of your disadvantaged state yes so that you don't need help yeah so anyway we should we should be interested in maintaining those programs at the same time we find the stuff that's actual nonsense and get rid of it as quickly as possible and that's going to be a delicate balance so far we're so we're early in this process and you're going to have you know big wins like the revelations about usaid um but the day will come soon enough when we're talking about discussions where we actually

have to do a cost benefit analysis on the programs that are targeted right and we have to realize that there are programs that benefit people greatly and are really good for the entire country as a whole absolutely and that's that's like the the problem when you like if you want to if you're a left-wing Progressive person like we both sort of identified with up until a while ago and then all of a sudden the entire country takes a polar shift you don't want to lose your own ideas about what's important and what things that we

should contribute to with our tax dollars because like I think we both agree that there's a lot of there's a lot of good in taking taxes and providing social safety nets providing food for poor people and homeless people like helping people welfare all these things are important for like to not have people starving on your [ __ ] streets like all that stuff is like if we we're going to have a community which is essentially what a country is supposed to be an enormous Community we have to support the members of our community we just

have to do it without grifters and do it without [ __ ] and do it without it being just a cleverly disguised ruse in order to gain political power well you may remember years ago I used to say that um I want to live in a country so good that I get to be a conservative right I'm a liberal because there's a lot of problems with the way our system works but the objective of all of that progressivism ought to be a system that doesn't require intervention in that way in which everybody does have access

to the market and so people really can be responsible for you know lifting themselves out of whatever literally the rising tide lifts all boats which should be everybody's thought process yeah a fair system in which everybody starts out with the tools that allow them them to take advantage of the market that's great and I want a system in which lazy people don't have yeah money to spend and are motivated to become unlazy I don't want people profiting from uh destroying opportunities that belong to other people but if we had a system that was like that

and everybody had the tools to utilize it then we should want as little intervention as possible yeah wild times just wild like what a fun time to be alive I it just feels different I have to tell you I I I don't know what's coming but it's at least it's at least delightful not to know what to think yeah right the the cynicism that was required to understand what was going on two months ago is now no longer required you actually have to think about what you're what you're told is coming down the pike and

think well I don't know is that a solution is it is is it a negotiating tactic or is it a solution that's actually being proposed and would it work and right like are we really taking over Gaza or is this just a [ __ ] marketing Ploy like what is this like some negotiation tactic with Israel like what cuz like the look on netanyahu's face when Trump was talking about taking over Gaza it was like what you could see his face he was just like what the [ __ ] are you saying I I have

to say I I almost feel feel like it was worth the price of admission right there just to watch his face yeah like look you want to let us in oh you want us help okay we're we're going to set up bases there and instead of you know someone was describing this on Twitter instead of a response time to any action Israel takes taking days it takes minutes well I I am not a fan of Netanyahu as you probably know um my my sense is that he the relationship of Netanyahu to the Israeli population is

more or less like the Biden Administration to the US population well they were even even more uh against it because they were protesting in the street hundreds of thousands of people up until October 7th you know that was one of the reasons apparently why they think they got their pants down or they had their got caught with their pants down in October 7th because they had so many troops that were around these protests so they had hundreds of thousands of people protesting in the streets because Netanyahu was trying to expand his powers and this just

so happened to put him back in charge um but in any case to see him back on his heels that was that was a good sign now I am of course concerned about the idea of I'm not even sure I know what I heard right we're going to make Gaza into GNA be the Rivier of the Middle East that was a pretty good impression the Rivier of the Middle East oh my God what a crazy crazy time and just to see all these politicians freaking out that that is amazing too it's really amazing it's amazing

to watch it's amazing to watch all these left-wing people suddenly Bernie Sanders making a post about how Donald Trump is trying to silence Independent Media was the wildest [ __ ] gaslighting I think I've ever seen from a politician Independent Media you mean [ __ ] CBS you mean CBS that edited that kamla Harris interview to make it look like she had a really good point Point 100% And and then I don't know if you caught uh Alex Soros reposting this claim that uh basically you have an unelected cabal wielding power I mean this that's

you that's you Alex that's your dad this is crazy yeah no it's a it's a very very strange historical moment also it's like you haven't addressed any of the exposed corruption all you're talking about is the horrors of dismantling this amazing organization what about all the [ __ ] that they've uncovered there's not you're not there's not even a counterargument like no we need to fund gender fluid dance in [ __ ] turkey like what are you talking about we need $200 million for St Starbucks curing cups what well I mean again you know I

said a lot of stuff over the years about the fact that our civilization had become a racket yeah and the fact that we were living in the era of malignant governance and that basically I'm concerned as somebody who believes in good governance that there's almost no component of this that you couldn't remove and create an improvement that that's not a message you want I want a message in which we govern as lightly as possible but we do it really really well and an era in which you can cut off any limb and the patient gets

healthier that teaches the wrong lesson about governance it it teaches the lessons that that governance was a mistake to begin with which it wasn't right so it's a big weekend get in on the action of the big game and UFC 312 at draftking sports book the official sports betting partner of the UFC the men's middleweight and women's strawweight titles will be on the line in the co-main events of UFC 312 and of course pro football is crowning a champion at the big game just getting started pick a fighter or a team to win this weekend

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call 8887895118 and eligibility varies by jurisdiction void in Ontario new customers only bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources see dk. audio well how do we get money out of governance so that's the problem right is money gets involved in governance especially enormous amounts of money and then they have influence and then you have senators and congressmen and different elected representatives that don't do the will of the people they do the will of the people that paid them enormous amounts of money and this is a real problem because

if it was just the the only way you could win was you had to do for the will of the people it you had to literally do things that were better for the people the people realize you're doing a great job and they keep electing you well let's be honest about what the conservatives had right from the get-go there are problems that only competition solves there other problems that competition in something like a market is not well positioned to solve but there's certain problems that there's just there's no second best it's only competition that works

and so when we talk about well you know what are we going to do for factchecking we're going to abandon the idea of factchecking what you want is a vibrant independent journalist sector in which people who spot the story early and people who articulate the story in the most intuitive and accurate way out compete those who do a worse job so that over time what we get is journalism that you can't uh fool right and that it reveals to us which government programs actually work even if they don't sound reasonable at first glance here's what's

really going on behind the scenes in this program right and then journalism that exposes any kind of Fraud and I I don't know about you but as as I was watching confirmation hearings my sense was that the Elizabeth Warren and the Bernie Sanders were dinosaurs who do not understand that the Earth has just been hit from outer space and that they don't live in the world that they are so used to that their corruption was immediately apparent and they're not used to that they're used to having a whole phony journalistic layer that covers for them

right and that layer is gone and the American public is awake and it's angry and rightfully so and now it looks at Bernie Sanders who you know I remember the first time you and I spoke you and I had both been Sanders supporters yeah and now to see that same guy going after Bobby Kennedy and you know the feeble excuse well what if Bobby Kennedy becomes the head of HHS and uh people don't have access to prescription drugs and it's like dude I just live through covid it's not obvious to me that they wouldn't get

healthier if they didn't have access to prescription drugs do you realize how corrupt those companies are and how nonsensical their science is the science that says that you actually get better if you take a Statin based on some Metric in your chart right so I'm not arguing that there aren't good Pharmaceuticals there undoubtedly are but what's the net effect of our pharmaceutical obsessed medical culture it's not obvious to me that it's positive I think it may well be negative and so anyway again I I see Bernie Sanders and I see him reading from a script

that is no longer relevant to the movie We're watching right and this is not saying that there aren't some pharmaceutical drugs that are amazing the problem is they're not all amazing and they sell them all like they're amazing absolutely that's the problem some of them are great like Viagra is fantastic like it's really good stuff there's a bunch of stuff like that that really works there's a bunch of drugs that really help people there's a bunch of drugs that brilliant scientists have developed that definitely help people live longer and live healthier lives but also they're

in the business of selling medicine selling pharmaceutical drugs and so there's a lot of stuff that they sell that is not good not good for you overall net negative when you look at the amount of drugs that get pulled that get endorsed and then supported by the FDA and then they have to pull wasn't it like 30% something in the range um yes and that is the tip of the iceberg we do not have just as we don't have a journalistic layer that exposes people in Congress who are lying to us and aspects of the

government that are corrupt we don't have a university system that can properly do science and can be relied on to tell us what the impact of a drug or a food additive is right the whole system is missing an action right the whole system is paid for by the pharmaceutical drug companies they pay for test they pay for studies they support organizations that are supposed to be regulating them the the whole thing is bananas everything that is supposed to evaluate something like safety or efficacy or analyze net effects anything like that has been captured by

the pr wing and and so the consumer is in no position to to navigate a world like that I mean and we know that this encompasses everything you know how many people's doctors are pharmas skeptical right your doctor should be very pharmace skeptical I don't know that this drug is actually a benefit to you but no that the doctors have become pushers right because they've been compromised and and also I mean that's literally the system that they're created from like they they they're sent out into the hospitals immediately with that and it just it's so

difficult for a doctor to step outside of the system and be independent when they do they get attacked like how many doctors lost their licenses because they were trying to prescribe icin to people who who had Co yeah almost all of the doctors who were any good found themselves chased out of a job or with Jeopardy to their license or slandered in in the media and you know my I'm sure you're in the same position though frankly the only doctors I trust at this point were the ones who were willing to pay a price to

tell me the truth yeah yeah my doctor that I know out here want a case but they were about to lose their license yeah it's and just for prescribing I remembered no that should that should be your first question Doc is how did you do over covid and uh if they have nothing interesting to say I would just turn around and walk out the door yeah imagine going to a doctor right now and they're telling you you should get your Co shots you should stay up to date imagine well I find that bad but at

least I know how to interpret that what I don't understand is what I'm supposed to do with the doctor who did recommend the shots has stopped recommending them and has not talked about it said something about the change in their perspective yeah yeah I have a problem with that with social media influencers too 100% people that were pushing it and then have not publicly correct of course have not said I was wrong and this is why I was wrong like I can't [ __ ] with you anymore if you if you can't say that you

were wrong about that then I don't I just can't 100% it it is a it is a test of integrity and you wouldn't want to go to a doctor that didn't have high integrity at A Moment Like This your doctor needs unusually high levels of integrity and what we've seen is unusually low levels and the same thing with um social media influencers as you called them anybody in the public sphere should go back and they should do an accounting of what they said what they thought how they got there how that played out in the

end when they changed their mind and what they said about it publicly yeah right I I I must say I'm I'm constantly in a battle with the ultra cynics who claim to have gotten everything right during covid because basically they never believe anything that's not a method you got lucky right you got lucky so it happened stumbled into a full con game you stumbled into a con game and yes you didn't buy it but that's not a demonstration that you know how to Think Through the next one right right corre it doesn't demonstrate anything right

um so what I really want are people who had a good track record and who know what mistakes they made and know how not to make them in the future those are the people that we should be paying attention to yeah it's a good point it's um it's a fun time though it's fun because things are actually happening which is very different than most of the time when people get elected most of the time when people get elected they claim all these things and they're running for president then they get into office and not much

changes and in fact a lot of what they campaigned on they don't practice at all like a great example is the Obama Administration The Hope and change website had to be changed because there was a bunch of stuff in there about whistleblowers protecting whistleblowers which they didn't do at all they were some of the worst was one of the worst administrations for whistleblowers 100% yeah well I think what we have seen over our you and I are about the same age what we have seen over our entire lifetime is that elections can change the jerseys

but they just swap you know who's in power and who's out of power well the point is the system is in power and you know the people in the the roles to deliver the speeches change but they're just basically trading off and so I have the sense that you and I are now watching the first the outcome of the first genuine election since 1963 yeah I've heard that argued that 63 when they assassinated Kennedy that was the last time we had a real president was an actual person who was trying to change things and put

things in with put things in a position where he felt it was beneficial to the entire country right and and it changes the feel of this in two ways one of them is just just unfamiliar to us because we've been watching theater for our entire lives and being told that it was the transfer of power and the other is that there's a lot of pent up need for change because you've effectively had a cryptic power structure that never gets displaced that has gotten so entrenched that rooting it out takes frankly an extraordinary in every sense

of the word person like Donald Trump and an extraordinary team imagine if he's doing this imagine is trying to do Doge without Elon well I so you know Heather and I took a lot of flak after the assassination the first assassination attempt uh of trump where we both perceived I think we were actually perceiving this before but the the assassination attempt really kicked it off we perceived that this was a a different person than the first administrations Trump that he had matured and he had been he had been forged by you know all of the

lawfare that had been deployed against him and that it had been good for him and in fact I I hate to say this because I have my doubts of course about uh the election of 2020 but I don't think what he is currently doing would have been possible if he had won and been inaugurated in 2020 I think you're right I think also the public wouldn't have supported it if they didn't see four years of the Biden Administration how crazy everything was and then having gone through Co and watching the economy collapsed and watching you

know hurricanes comeing he's like the most important thing for a hurricane is to get vaccinated remember that I do now could only get vaccinated yeah it's very important everything's for not vaccinated everything everything um the we lived in in a movie bad we went through a [ __ ] crazy colen Brothers kind of apocalyptic movie A poorly written poorly directed movie with you know an extraordinary budget and almost no need to pay attention to continuity it was weird it was bad but but at least we know but I think that really woke a lot of

people up you know so-called red pilled a lot of people I think that that four years was important to get to where we are now it was essential where most people are aware like I think if you had gone to 2018 and and had like a real conversation with most people in this country about the level of corruption it would be a fraction of what they believe it to be now fraction I I know this to be true because you know I tried to to spark Unity 2020 and make it work and you banned on

Twitter I was explain that to people because want to think the difference between the new Twitter thank God for Elon Musk and the old Twitter the old Twitter you guys tried to put together a Unity party where you would get the best representatives from the left and the right together for the good of the country and like that's dangerous that that's it's D and they even lied about us They said that we were engaged in inauthentic Behavior basically they accused us of using Bots which we didn't so anyway that's the world we we were in

in 2020 and headed to a more controlling world world right and then in 2024 you know there's what I think of as a continuation of the same idea right there's you know rescue the Republic was what it looked like in 2024 and the point is that actually worked that was an organic Unity movement and it took advantage of the fact that you know Maha had already catalyzed as uh as Kennedy and Trump had gotten together and so that was huge that was a huge part of it because Kennedy had so many supporters even in in

many states he was like bordering like 25 30% which is really crazy for an independent and when he went over to Trump and then all those people like oh my God I have now people who are vaccine injured people are very skeptical about certain pharmaceutical drugs that may have caused them harm people who knew Bobby's history of being an environmental attorney and all the the amazing work that he did then those people got on board with the Trump Administration and I think that was huge and now with Tulsi I think that's huge as well I

think you know when when Elon took over Doge that was like the the final Avenger like having that team team together is such a unique team where you have prominent former Democrats former eight time Democrat for eight years Democrat con congresswoman who also served overseas in a Mil in a medical unit twice like this is you you got an extraordinary group of human beings extraordinary group of human beings all of whom I think took very real risks oh yeah at the very least with their reputations well tell us got put on a terrorist watch list

of course which is [ __ ] crazy and it was a gamble each of these people you know Kennedy musk Tulsi they knew that they were taking that risk and it was clear that they were motivated by patriotism that they actually I mean this is what a soldier does right you know that you're taking risks for something that matters more than you yes and you know to watch Elon do it I think ALS so was just remarkable because of course in elon's position he could he could have done you know what Zuckerberg does right and

he could have played it safe and kept his options open and done what he was told and then you know apologize for it later sort of right that wasn't what musk did he actually had the courage of his convictions a as many people have noted his liberation of EX set the stage for this election to even happen that there wasn't anything you could put over on us that we couldn't unpack and you know crowdsource a better interpretation of on X and even if most people weren't on X it was enough that they their narrative engine

just didn't work right and if you look at a viral post on X a viral post about something that's very important like that has to do with us Aid you will see 7 million 8 million views 10 million views there is nothing equivalent like that to mainstream media there's nothing even close there's nothing even close maybe a very viral YouTube clip but these are every day all day long there's posts that have 7 million 5 million 3 million and people are reposting them as well and sharing them and and taking the information and posting them

you know without credit there's a lot of that going on so there the actual amount of the information that gets out is far more than it would have ever happened without Elon taking over Twitter it pro it's probably changed the course of our civilization in a way that nothing else could have done yes and I think it's a little bit deceptive because its size doesn't quite explain its impact but it's a little bit like the higher reasoning centers of the brain like there's a collective Consciousness in which we figure out what we think is true

and it's been Downstream of this amazing propaganda engine well we're now learning to spot the propaganda and to understand what it really means and to figure out what it's cloaking and a lot of that is happening on Twitter because it can and it's actually forcing you know Facebook to come around right which of course you know I I usually say that zero is a special number meaning in a world with no social media platforms where you can speak freely and reason and with others there's no pressure to start doing that but once you have one

any social media platform that doesn't allow you to speak free freely is at a competitive disadvantage and so you know Elon freeing X actually liberated the others and they're beginning to move in the right direction which frankly is part of why this era just feels different yeah it's it's very interesting times and then on top of that we're being invaded by UFOs so it's all happening I have not noticed that I areen you watching news Nation what's wrong with you you're so not informed I I am uh not informed I am I'm waiting for some

sort of compelling evidence that something extraterrestrial is going on I'm talking to everybody and the more people I talk to the less I know the more information I get from all these people that have had UFO and alien encounters and experiences and whistleblowers and the more I talk to them the less I feel like I know I do not feel like it's and then on top of that I'm in the middle of jacqu Val's books which are very wild like jacqu Val I had him on the podcast a long time ago and he's coming back

on again but the first time I had him on I only knew him as the French scientist that had um the he that the character in Clos Encounters of the first kind was based on him do you know the character the French character that brings together the military try to communicate with the aliens it's based on jacqu valet who's been studying UFOs like for decades like from the since like the 50s and the 60s and uh boy the more you read about his take on things the more it's very confusing cuz these [ __ ]

stories are the same stories that have been going on for hundreds of years they're they're not even modern you know we we think of them we think of like Kenneth Arnold seeing the flying saucers and Co coining the phrase in the 1950s like no no these stories have been like real similar for hundreds of years that some there's some phenomenon that people occasionally encounter and it's real similar it has similar like it's similar enough from people that weren't aware of the narrative that you have to wonder what the [ __ ] is actually going on

yeah I think you do have to wonder what the [ __ ] is actually going on on the other hand I think there's a whole range of possibilities that don't involve anything extraterrestrial I think there's a bunch of [ __ ] that doesn't involve anything extraterrestrial that's happening at the same time as a bunch of [ __ ] that we don't have explanations for well I that that's what I think you would you wouldn't that would not be shocking if there was something to cover you might decide instead of trying to keep it under wraps

you would bury it in so much lowquality [ __ ] yes that nobody be able to find it that's what it feels like to me that's what it feels like to me it feels like to me that this is there's a lot of people that I think are trying to do the right thing a lot of whistleblowers that are really trying to educate the American public but I don't know who they really are doing the bidding of I don't know they even know I think if I was the government let's pretend that I was some

gigantic arm of the military-industrial complex and I had some literal recovered flying saucers I would come up with the dumbest [ __ ] stories and put them in binders and leave them on desks and hope that these people leak this [ __ ] and the more dumb [ __ ] they leak the more the actual reality of what we possess like let's say if the government really did find a flying saucer in the 1940s really did back in back engineer the propulsion system really did apply it to drones and they really are flying them around

and they have them what what I would do I would make up some crazy [ __ ] about you know a Mothership that's 47 years away and it's coming it's as big as a planet and I would I would come up with the wackiest stuff possible and like get it all out there put it all out there we have 57 different species all in a [ __ ] freezer somewhere and right Patterson Air Force Base and I I just like ramp up the [ __ ] in as many ways as possible you know they've controlled

all our nuclear test codes and they they hover over our facilities we're powerless to control them I would say everything as wacky and crazy as possible so I could keep flying around these gravity propulsion vehicles that we've developed well I must tell you I'm not I'm skeptical that those vehicles are Vehicles what do you think they are projections projections yeah in what way but what if you could monitor them on if you see them on radar if they they visual they're seeing them going into the water like what is I'm having a Deja Vu moment

here or we've discussed this before I don't know which it is but uh the basic rubric is physical stuff displaces air which means it makes noise when it moves and I don't quite see the logic behind suppressing that fully I don't see the capacity to suppress it fully who who knows what I don't know but my guess is if you had actual craft moving around in the ways that people who have observed these things think they've seen it that noise would be an inherent part of the phenomenon and why would that be the case if

it operates on a gravity propulsion system that essentially bends space around it and instead of creating a sonic boom because it's flying through the air it's not flying through the air it's displacing space well I don't even know what displacing space means I don't know what a gravity propulsion system means right so but I'm trying to imagine some futuristic sci-fi version of a propulsion system that doesn't involve pushing something out the back it doesn't involve exhaust like acket I'm not necessarily requiring engine noise I'm requiring air noise passing through the air yeah passing through the

air noise that you know as the air collapses as the craft moves the air collapses behind it that you'd hear something you mean when it's moving fast yes especially if it's moving fast but if it's not really displacing the air around it and if this is what allows it to go through the water as well with extreme speed so one of the crazier things that they've they've monitored is something moving underwater that's huge like size of couple football fields at 500 knots so this this is exactly my problem is there's two Realms there's a realm

in which I understand the physics of the universe enough that I can evaluate that claim and then I can say well it's not obvious to me how you go through the water the water has to be displaced and water is denser than air in terms of how much matter there is how many particles there are and therefore it ought to be harder to move through than air I would expect noise in the air I would expect something similar in the water and the fact that these things behave in a couple of different ways one they're

silent two they turn in ways that would challenge a biological Critter profoundly three they move at speeds that are improbable in light of what we understand now I'm not saying there can't be lots of stuff we don't understand but what I'm saying is all of those things have a simplest explanation which is that that craft isn't matter right it's it's a projection now what science what kind of Technology would even be available that could create a projection like that ah well that I believe we have I'm not expert in it but you can project from

above or below onto material you know it can even I think be done in Clear Skies right especially if you had a substrate and I don't I don't know whether to go down this road go down that road what do you mean well there seems to be a certain amount of experimentation with with particles being released from aircraft for some reason I would assume and have long assumed that there is experimentation with altering the albo of the earth so it reflects more light back into space well there's certainly proposals it's certainly been discussed and you

know this is something that Bill Gates has been involved in yeah and I don't think you know one of the things that we uh many of us came to understand during covid about proposals is that very often The Proposal come comes after the experiments have already begun right you propose an experiment that you've already done and then you recoup your your uh investment when the grant is given so anyway I believe that there's been some experimentation with uh releasing particles I think it's an insane experiment to run it's diabolical frankly you have no right to

alter the Earth's atmosphere without us at least having a global public discussion about the consequences I believe this is an informed consent violation and that I take those things very seriously those were hanging offenses in at the end of World War II but nonetheless if you drop particles into the atmosphere those particles are largely not visible right they have impacts but could they be used to project uh a craft that that wasn't onto a substrate you can't quite see I don't know so it would have to be a substrate so would there have to be

particles or is it is there a potential technology that would allow you to project something into the just actual air Clear Blue Sky a physical thing something that looks like a physical thing well let's put it this way first of all there are always particles even if what we're talking about is Air Navy laser creates plasma UFOs this is at least four years old remember I showed you that one YouTube video that one time that shows the little plasma things dancing in the air oh yeah yeah find that find that video yeah that's almost describes

that it's they've created stuff to trick missiles and different homing devices not that that's what this is but it's a potential explanation for what some of it is it's in the right neighborhood at least find that video so let's just say first of all this is where I would want a robust University system and a robust journalistic system to dig because there's a lot you need to know that you could figure out that would tell us whether or not what we're looking at are really distant craft moves moving at tremendous speeds or it's an optical

illusion let me just give you an example you'll you'll probably have this is 10 years old whoa huh and they can do it in patterns like this in the air this is what they could do a long time ago aliens so they're making a butterfly out of plasma bulbs in the air huh or plasma that's pretty good seen a few other like and pretty silent what oh my God that's pretty good that's insane oh my God now make a Tic Tac so a 3D display in midair using Las laser plasma technology so if you were

somewhere and you encountered these things you would absolutely think these are alien craft From Another Dimension that's come here to communicate with you and imagine that you saw that outside right you wouldn't necessarily know how far away the object was and therefore you wouldn't necessarily know how fast it was moving moving You' you'd misjudge it and to give everybody an example that they will have familiar familiarity with I was driving down the highway at one point rainstorm but the Sun was shining and I saw a rainbow and I've thought a lot about rainbows they're pretty

interesting and I realized that I could tell that although the rainbow looked to be 10 miles from me or something like that it was actually feet from me and I could tell that because the rain came down onto the road and I could see it in front of the guard rail right continuous rainbow where the parts up here look like they're closer to the mountains in the distance but when I see where it's continued down into the spray off the road it's actually 10 ft away right so the mind is building a model of stuff

and if you give it the wrong cues it'll totally misunderstand the distance that it's looking at I mean to the extent that rainbow is at a distance right right especially when you take into consideration a lot of these UFOs are in night skies yeah right so it's all black Sky trying it's very difficult to gauge so if you had if you had a robust journalistic uh apparatus what it would want to do is figure out well if person a was standing in location X and they saw a craft moving at what appeared to be 200

M an hour um at a distance of 5 miles then the question is well who else would have seen it and if we go and we ask people who were standing in those locations did they see it at all because if they didn't then maybe the thing was inches away from the person being projected locally right and they only felt like they saw something at a great distance so what is your take uh when you keep hearing all these Congressional whistleblowers and people coming and talking about that we've been in contact and we have in

our possession multiple craft that are not of this world like what's all that um well I'm I'm going to share credit with Ben Davidson for this but the basic point is s up until proven otherwise yeah and S up until proven otherwise I think is a very functional way to approach this because depending upon what kind of program we're looking at and there obviously is governmental involvement in whatever it is either concealing real stuff or pretending that it has real stuff that it's pretending to conceal or whatever it's doing right um there is every possibility

that there are sort of layers of awareness and at the bottom layer there may not be anything alien at all but it may be that people fairly close to the center have been shown something I mean I don't understand what the purpose of any of this stuff is either talk to us about the aliens and when they started to visit and what it is they seem to want and whether they're still here and whether they're going to be back and whatever we know that's what I would do um any excuse that says the public can't

handle it I think is just nonsense it's uh but isn't the problem if you've been let's pretend that there is a real crash retrieval program and there are real aliens if we've been hiding it for so long then it's very difficult to not hide it anymore it's almost like kind of like being in the closet like even though there's no reason to be in the closet in 2025 there's a lot of people that are still in the closet yeah and I think part of the reason why they're in the closet is cuz like they were

in the closet 20 years ago and they've been lying forever and they don't want to come out so that's just a person with social consequences now imagine a government so how are you funding these things were you lying to Congress you have a crash retrieval program how was that funded like let me see your budget let me see what where where did you allocate the money this is fraud okay now you're getting into a situation where people can go to jail there's perjury there's people that have lied on on the witness stand so like if

that's the case then I understand why you would continue for your own personal benefit just for your own personal protection your own personal interest to keep things secret from the American people then there's also the attitude that government does have there's the infantilization of our people by the government that's always been like they we they decide that Mal information is a thing so what that is is information that's true but it could [ __ ] you up so we're we're going to say it's bad it's bad information even though it's accurate information so this is

like you're a baby you can't handle the truth that's basically what that is it's the government's version of it now that sort of attitude which clearly persists throughout the entire federal government wouldn't you apply that sort of thinking to something as powerful as an actual alien contact that we have been experiencing for decades and they've been lying about all right well as long as we're just sort of fantasizing about wild stuff here imagine that Donald Trump were to be elected president for a second time and he was pissed off and he was to nominate Tulsi

gabard for the Director of National Intelligence and then was only hours or at most days away from being uh confirmed by the Senate then when she gets in presumably she wouldn't have investment in all of those years of lying about this and she might feel obligated to tell us in the public what the hell's going on maybe we should edit that part out so she gets confirmed uh yeah we could all right fair enough just kidding just kidding we don't have to edit out but yeah that's the Hope right the hope is she's a very

honest person and a real Patriot and she would want people to know 100% also you know we've got Elon on a separate track he's going through the books and finding all of the the nonsense and so presumably the effort to hide whatever it is either to manufacture the impression of UFOs or to hide what we know about them that's going to have a budget somewhere yeah yeah it's all interesting uh but it's also so I always assume that when something hits the Zeitgeist and is like prominently out in the newspapers and media and websites and

I always assume that they're covering something else and that this thing is the big distraction and that's what I was thinking while the UFO thing was happening over New Jersey I was like okay what are they distracting from what's the big distraction because it seems like that's what that was that just seemed so forced and so obvious and then the Trump Administration says oh they were our right okay well why were you doing that why were they doing that why why didn't they say they were ours why did they freak everybody out why they send

Jets to go scramble after them and then they turned their lights off and disappeared like what so there there is the question of what they were trying to distract us from if that was their purpose but I also find this has again uh become a kind of theme in my life this is also a violation of informed consent if those were our drones and they were nightly traumatizing the residents of New Jersey and pretending they didn't know what it was that's a defacto experiment that they were running on the citizens of the country they have

no right to do this [ __ ] yeah that's a good point yeah that should be illegal 100% yeah especially like lying about it and not telling us what you're doing and then just keeping everybody in the dark for weeks where people were really panicking I I you know one doesn't know until you see this stuff uh enacted where it's going to lead but my sense is I don't want my government lying to me ever again with the excuse that it's for my own good is it possible to you you know Obama passed that law

in was it 2012 that allowed the government to use propaganda on its own citizens remember that law I'm trying to remember this is not the ndaa 2012 no no NDA is a that's the authorization act that this is a that's indefinite detention yeah that's indefinite detention this is different this is uh the use of propaganda so they authorize the use of propaganda on American citizens so the CIA instead of turning its you know propaganda wing on the whole world they're allowed to use it under the GU of course of National Defense and National Security that

sometimes they need to [ __ ] us well that is in fact exactly what we have discovered and why it was so hard to convince people of this before the evidence for it emerged I don't know but all you needed to realize was that some Rogue element had decided that it had the right to engage in the same kind of regime change [ __ ] domestically that it was already feeling entitled to engage in globally and the rest makes perfect sense and of course you would get an entrenched cabal that would come up with a

justification for fending off a challenge you know at The Ballot Box that it could portray as somehow uh a threat to American democracy of course it would do that right it has to be forbidden to do that and the penalties have to be extreme for attempting it or it will happen right so the argument against that is not not the argument using it in amer America but the argument is you need organizations like that to do that worldwide to counteract the fact that other countries are doing that worldwide and that there is some sort of

a psychological game that's going on there's a propaganda game that's going on with all countries as well as you know they're doing it against us we're doing it against them we need to be sophisticated in how we employ these things otherwise we're going to lose very important parts of the world it's key to the National Security of the United un States we have to have things like that in place but when they start using it on us and they say oh well we have to start using it on us because Russia is using it on

us or we have to use it on us to counteract what China's doing we have to that's when things get really screwy right well yes but I also am not sure that I buy the international rationale either and I think as much as I understand it right we we have to be mature about what's possible in the world and what implication it has for for the Republic on the other hand to the extent that we believe in self-determination where exactly does our right to interfere with other people's self-determination come from further I do think that

there's a kind of end State for the governance structures of Earth that what we have in the west an agreement on Level Playing Field an agreement to compete with each other by attempting to produce better stuff rather than by interfering with our competitor's ability to get to the market that that view of the West is superior and it is also contagious that it makes for a safer uh more rewarding fairer less warlike system and therefore there's a very good reason for people to want to adopt it so that sounds great though but doesn't that isn't

that slightly naive when you take into consideration the amount of Espionage that we know exists in American corporations and in American uh educational institutions well I'm not arguing that you just go and live your values what I'm arguing is that those values are Superior that they are sticky and contagious when they take hold and that anything you do where you compromise on the idea that that's the objective is to get Western values to to catch on across the world anytime you decide you have a right to do something else you're you're you're dragging us onto

a slippery slope okay you you will disrupt other people's self-determination you have no basic right to do it and it will eventually come home and be done to us so I don't know what the sophisticated way to make it maximally likely that other societies take on those values is but I know that it was happening organically without us having to do terribly much and so the real question is how do we make that a winner so that it organically catches on and how do we uh reinforce it when it does how much are you paying

attention to deep seek and the AI competition that's going on right now I am Loosely paying attention to the AI competition I'm conflicted about it I don't think there's anything we can do to regulate AI competition that doesn't make matters worse I'm very concerned about the outgrowth of this transformative technology I think even the most mundane disruptions that will come from it things like uh disruptions to the the job market are going to be a profound challenge to our society and we're going to have to come up with an approach that allows us uh to

to tolerate the disruption I used to think the approach was Universal basic income but now I'm conflicted because now I I just take into account human nature and you know unfortunately I don't think it's good for people to just give them free money even though you need to even though you need to I think it's it's ultimately bad for them to be dependent upon it and that's what scares me about Automation and AI in general that if it does get to the point where there's so many people that are displaced from the job market that

we have to provide them like a real meaningful wage and what incentives do they have to break free from that system and do they just decide to live inside the means of whatever that is forever and does that limit the growth and potential that those people possess because people really don't accomplish anything unless they're driven or unless they have to right that's that's what really gets people going that's why it's so difficult for people that were trust fund babies to ever get anything going I mean we all know the trust fund kids that are just

they do do drugs and party and they're materialists and they're really lost that's really common like more common than not right very difficult to to navigate that water so what what would we do to incentivize people to do things like to to have this healthy thriving artistic creative Innovative economy that we have right now like how does that continue if so many people are displaced from the job market or is there a way where you can say you know what we are so concerned about basic Goods needs food shelter things like if you just provide

people with the basics so nobody ever has to worry about food or shelter would it organic arise that some people would compete outside of that and then say now that I have basic food and shelter let me pursue my dreams let me do what I want to do let me provide let me create a business that AI can't make let me make you know fine Cabinetry let me let me do let me paint let me do things that's going to provide a real value that uh you know I can get money from that it can

be an actual viable business and maybe the way to incentivize people to do that is to never take away their Universal B basic income so it's not like welfare where one of the things like my family was on welfare when we were young and when they got off welfare it was like a nice thing to know that like we're providing for ourselves now you know but you have to do that you have to break off the system and then you don't get the checks anymore but what if the people just keep getting Universal basic income

and you and we just re rewire the way we think about food and shelter we think about food and shelter is just something that everybody should have not like tons of money not exposable in dispensable income where you can disposable income where you could just buy [ __ ] junk food and garbage and and do cocaine all day but have enough where you can live and then have people pursue a life that is more meaningful but you have to give people incentives they have to be somehow or another either personally motivated to do that uh

encouraged by the culture to do that it has to be something where people develop this desire to do more well let's talk about the ultimate source of this problem our ancestors our hunter gatherer ancestors even our farming ancestors lived in a world where the world itself provided the incentive structure right if you didn't work hard enough as a hunter gatherer it manifested as hunger and Jeopardy so people were naturally incentivized to invest in the right kind of stuff and the right kind of stuff is hard work in some cases where you know you pursue the

materials that make your Hut better that procure more food for your family or it could be Insight where you figure out some way to do something better so you make more with what you've already figured out how to get that's a very natural structure and it's what we neurologically are built for the economy has some of that characteristic the economy rewards hard work somewhat and it rewards in Insight somewhat but it also rewards uh cheating and it rewards lots of unproductive behavior that actually destroys wealth but creates a profit stock market yeah for example but

it it rewards gambling it rewards uh interference competition all sorts of stuff you know destroying wealth is actually a big part of our economy and the way the mythology of free market capitalism Works you're getting paid for producing stuff that enhances us all but what fraction of the economy is actually dedicated to activities that destroy wealth you know the production of porn for example in my my opinion that is highly likely to destroy vastly more wealth than it than it produces but it's a very rich industry for a reason so what I'm getting at is

we have a new problem with the AI component maybe it's taken the magnitude of the problem that we had and it's multiplied it by 10 but it's not a new problem we are still trying to figure out what to do with the fact that you're taking an animal out of the habitat that properly inherently incentivizes it and putting it into an environment in which the incentives aren't really wellb built and I agree with you whatever sympathy I may have had for the idea of universal basic income is gone because I do think it would produce

at best a kind of learned helplessness yes that's unproductive a dependency so scary right so what we really want is a system in which whatever the new opportunities are going to be in the world where AI is available everywhere and very sophisticated we want people to figure out how to leverage it on our behalf and mind you we could have the same conversation before the worldwide web and we could talk about well what's it going to be like when you can Source information right from anywhere what kinds of opportunities is that going to create and

can we incentivize people to figure out out what those opportunities are yada Yad y so the AI version is the is the same problem but at a different order of magnitude so I don't know what the solution is about how you create that proper incentive structure but we are going to be living in a world in which meaning and wealth are of a fundamentally different nature and what we want is for people to have the tools and the incentive to explore that world productively so that when they do it well they end up economically enhanced

and when they do it poorly they suffer a challenge so that they are naturally led by that world to find stuff that creates wealth for all of us right well maybe it starts with the education system maybe we have to incentivize people to pursue their dreams instead of just to try to find a job cuz that this is the way the education system is scheduled now or is is set up now it's basically you go back to the Rockefellers right this is you're basically trying to make Factory workers you're trying to make people that obey

the earlier you can get them into school the better because the more you can indoctrinate them into the way the system works you get them accustomed you get these kids that are filled with [ __ ] energy and they're excited about the world they just want to play all the time and you make them just sit down all day and when they don't you say that little fell got add he's not paying attention we need to give him some ridling the little [ __ ] just sitting there jacked out of his mind on riddling now

you know and this is what we've done and instead of having an education system that educates people that way have an education system that excites people about learning things they're actually interested in hell yeah but again this is an another version where it's not like AI is a bad fit for for the education system it certainly is but the education system has been garbage my whole life existed with an education system that was almost totally worthless and in some cases was counterproductive which is I think why some of us folks with learning disabilities actually turn

out to have an advantage it's not that there's something good about having a learning disability but if it breaks your relationship to school so school has less of an easy time programming you to be a cog and you at least retain the potential to be something other than a cog I don't think I had a learning disability but I was a latch key kid right so I didn't have a lot of guidance when I was young and I wasn't used to people telling me what to do and I didn't enjoy it and also I had

a lot of energy and it was very difficult for me to pay attention to boring things by uninspired teachers but then again every now and then I'd have an inspired teacher and I'd go okay maybe I'm not stupid like maybe I'm just bored you know and then I'd get really interested in something and then I'd learn a lot about it and then I'd be able to like tell people about it i' talk to my friends you know what I learned today and then we'd have these conversations about it like okay it's not that I'm not

curious or interested it's that I'm not being inspired now why is that is it because I'm 10 you know and you know this is is hard to be inspired by things when you're 10 because you're just a little [ __ ] dork and you're running around reading comic books and paying attention to other things and you don't really care about math or you don't care about history what what is it but whatever it is the system's not working for you you have to find some sort of inspiration outside of it and I've been educated almost

entirely outside of schools almost all of what I know I know from books that I read because I was interested or I listened to audio books or listen to podcasts or had conversations with people like you that's how I learned things and it wasn't that I wasn't interested it wasn't that I wasn't smart it was that I was not inspired I I had other I didn't know that I wasn't a loser until I got really good at other things and I'm like I can get good at things okay so if I can get good at

things it's not that I'm a loser it's just like I can't work a job I can't just show up every day and do something that's not exciting to me but that doesn't mean I'm useless it just means I'm useless for that I don't have the personality to just sit there and go over paperwork it doesn't I can't I'll go crazy but that go crazy part is also what lets you have the courage or the the motivation to go and try a path that seems unlikely for success and to have the courage to say well some

people succeed why don't I [ __ ] try it and just I can't do this [ __ ] it let's give it a go and then that's how you become a stand-up comedian you know nobody thinks nobody thinks it's a good path like out of a hundred standup comedians that do open mic night maybe one maybe one will have some sort of a career in comedy well I'm really glad you're telling me this because back when I was a college professor before 2017 I used to be since I was a terrible student myself I was

fascinated by the students who had really high potential but were just not a good fit for school so I was really interested in what made people smart especially when it had nothing to do with school or happened in spite of school and your story fits perfectly here in fact what you describe is sort of the equivalent of a learning disability right like suspicion that you're teachers aren't all that and maybe you're not so thrilled at sitting there listening to them you know occasionally it sounds like you had a teacher who was pretty good but yes

thank God me too I had about one in five yeah teachers that's good that's a great number wasn't terrible yeah but for the rest of the time you know school was so busy dismissing me as you know not performing to potential was what it said every every time on my report card right that it was just really demoralizing and I remember sort of in the second grade having a kind of choice I I didn't know what it was that I was choosing between but it was like I can either surrender to their understanding of who

I am or I can stop respecting them and so it created an attitude problem sounds like you had a similar attitude problem and uh those you know I wish I could give every student that attitude problem the thing the difference is when I was 13 years old I didn't have the internet and the kids today that are 13 years old they can get inspired by so many different things they'll go and find a YouTube video on ancient civilizations then all a sudden they're inspired and they want to learn about this and that and there's so

many different things that can fire you up intellectually that are outside of the school system where back then it was just a school system and occasionally books you know someone would Rec recommend books but there was no documentaries that people could just rent there was it wasn't there wasn't the kind of access to stimulating ideas that is available today which I think is like unprecedented the amount of access to interesting ideas that people have today is off the charts it's never in human history been anything remotely close but along with that you have flat Earth

and [ __ ] Holocaust deniers you you [ __ ] everything it's all piled in together you have so much nonsense it's all together yeah but you also you know I'm skeptical that the the vast wealth of information is inherently a good thing really yeah because I know like I said I became very interested in what made people smart and what made people smart was not libraries what made people smart was an interaction with the world that rewarded them when they figured something out and very often that was the physical world so one of the

things I worry about with you know a kid who maybe is not getting so much out of school but they have access to an entire world of fascinating things on their computer is that it turns all of that stuff into an exercise in consuming information rather than discovering and so I would much rather see kids have access to a you know a wild world a forest that's intact where they can go and discover things and those things aren't labeled and you don't know what it is and you don't know what it means or you know

you try to build a structure a treehouse or something and it tests your understanding of what the structure is you know that will hold you and um that it is that feedback where you are not a consumer of the world but you are a producer you're interacting with the world rather than just seeing it represented that is the most intellectually enhancing thing are they mutually exclusive though no it seems like it would be beneficial for people to have both it seems like especially young people it would be beneficial for them to have the natural world

which I think you're absolutely right it's very important and just to be you know hopefully safely be wild and outside or not I mean unsafe enough that you develop sense you know yeah but yes I I think it ideally would have access to both so it would create the uh the reward patterns in your mind that would cause you to think about how to be productive in the world but I also think that the way the online World presents itself is strangely demotivating right because you know you see whatever social media platform you're on you've

got some 30 second clip of some person doing some utterly remarkable thing that I would have said until I saw it with my own eyes was impossible that doesn't create a pathway to discovering what the person in question can do what you're looking at is somebody whose abilities out strips what almost anybody can do give me an example of what you're talking about okay so uh this is you know something I saw yesterday guys riding down a ramp and launch punching themselves two or three stories into the air on a scooter and then turning around

and dropping back onto the same ramp you know and of course I think I saw Red Bull in there somewhere right so it's like first of all you've got this Corporation incentivizing people to take risks that aren't smart right and then you've got an apparatus that you're not going to be able to build or approximate and then you've got the person who leverages the apparatus better than anybody and it's like well where's the opportunity for the viewer to be like yeah I want to I want to get in on that well it inspires them to

go somewhere and find out how you do that right it's like a Chuck Norris movie inspires you to take a karate class well I think a Chuck Norris movie is probably a better tool um the the ad mixture of people who are highly capable and people who get some of the thrill of the highly capable person just by viewing it is not as good as it might be right in other words I think we've taken all sorts of activities that people used to engage in and we've found a consumable equivalent right like sport people used

to play sports now most people who are in into sports watch sports they are consuming the sport rather than participating in it right especially adults especially adults likewise sex frankly sex is a very important realm and it is it's a skill the skill involves insight into your partner and we've turned it into a consumable where you can chase your fetish or whatever and just watch it on a screen right and the point is that's actually not the same activity right and that's also leading to this weird world we're living in now where a giant percentage

of especially young men aren't having any sex right more than that's where it goes and you know if we take ourselves back you know a couple hundred years music music used to be something that people did Everybody sung and they whistled and many people played musical instruments now music is a consumable and the point is the reward may be somewhat similar to listening to a really good song as it is to play a really good song on an instrument but the degree to which you've been robbed as a human being who is capable of producing

music and you just you don't have a thought of doing it because there's so much to listen to that's not positive for humans right I see what you're saying yeah but isn't that like at least people are being exposed to a bunch of different ideas so it has the potential to lead them to try and do different things well you know when I was a professor my thought was almost the entire job of education is about incentives it's not it's about incentives and motivation it's not about delivering content if you can get a student to

want to understand something most of the work is done right so when I look at school I can't believe how badly structured it is because the idea is effectively it's going to threaten you into learning something that's not going to make it stick it's not going to make you want to learn more right so my feeling is what you want is um you want to create a desire in the student to understand the thing then your work is pretty well done and then it's like play and if we took that approach to all of these

things so that you felt rewarded by producing music even if it's very simple right well then you might pick up music for a lifetime and be generating it decades later right right you you should not be delivered a message about sex where sex is something that is supposed to be perfected and therefore a person who's new to that realm feels inadequate and therefore is incentivized to abandon it and go watch it there should be a recognition that actually this is something that you will develop over a lifetime and it's important that you do and you

should want it because it's access to some of the most rewarding stuff there is right so just getting getting the motivation built in the person so that they want to pursue it is all you really need I'm really worried about robot sex dolls yep I didn't used to be worried about them I joke around about it on stage but I'm actually worried about it now because I've seen some of the new ones that they've developed the new very lifelike human robots which is by the way they seem to be a lot of them are hot

women for some reason even though they're not sex robots a lot of the robots are hot women like what okay I see what you're doing like you could do both things at the same time obvious the market is sex robots so what you're doing is you're having like robot assistants that happen to be really hot beautiful women well they're like pretty realistic right now not realistic like I couldn't tell like if one was sitting there that that that's a robot you're a real person but go to pong and then go to Diablo 4 you know

you know what I'm saying like you know where it's coming it's it's it's only going to get better than it is now and now it's pretty godamn close you're in The Uncanny Valley yeah you're in The Uncanny Valley and really what needs to happen in order that we do we don't reproduce the disaster of porn with you know in 3D right or 4D um it needs to become sophisticated to understand that you really don't want any part of that even if it's very good especially if it's very good but isn't that hard to do but

you can't even convince people that they don't want social media well you know I used to take a lot of of flack as a prude because yeah because well I I'm not a prude I'm I'm really not but I do take a very dim view of porn it's like you're messing with something sacred and just don't right and you know porn isn't what you and I remember porn was when we were young right it's not pictures of naked girls right right it's way more more pernicious and invasive and coercive and instantaneously available instantaneously available and

it reaches almost everybody now so anyway I used to say very negative things about porn and I took a lot of flak over it that is less and less true I think people are beginning to realize how much damage it's doing to them and there are a lot more people ready to acknowledge that whether or not they're in control of it in their own lives they wish they were right right they don't want it um I will say you know I have two boys 18 and 20 and I believe neither of them is involving themselves

with porn and they report they aren't the only ones so young men are recognizing that it's a bad road to go down well you can see I think that road and the road of video games video games and porn together boy your life will vanish MH and it's not that video games aren't awesome they're awesome but I don't play them on purpose cuz I love them that's why I don't play them they're they're too involving and they're not real life and they can steal real life even though you're having a good time right when I

think back to the video games that I played which were of course you know much cruder what was your video game of choice well when I was really young when I was uh you know a kid in high school I used to play Castle Wolfenstein on my Apple remember oh yeah yeah yeah wasn't that by the ID software guys I think those was the guys that designed doom and I'm pretty sure Castle Wolfenstein was them I think that was their first game I don't know was right was it Jamie yeah that's uh John carac and

uh John Romero but it was pretty cool um but here's the problem with it wasn't wasn't no no no different guys different guys they had a game like I so my my brain that's they're connected but it's that Google says I mean says no who developed software guy but wait a minute wasn't didn't Muse have something to do with ID Maybe I'm Wrong I mean I'm looking at the games that Muse software put out they stopped putting them out in 85 okay and then Doom was what year so Doom was definitely it and that was

the first one that was the the first like real 3D computer game that just captivated me 93 that was almost that was 93 boy I started playing doom and I was like this it's over right it's over and it's so crude if you watch it now here you go the John karmac developed a new game engine called the Doom engine while the rest of the software team finished Wolfenstein 3D prequel so they made a game okay involved with that there that's what it is okay yeah so that was them but think about you know a

video game is an incredible tool for training the mind sure right it trains you to just precisely time things to have yourself in this mindset to know exactly where you are in the game to remember a sequence of moves whatever it is it's an incredible training engine because the incentive structure is there so that you want to get to the next level right it's like what school should be doing except what does it train you to do nothing as soon as the next Gates you all of the skills that you invested in building are almost

all wiped away now maybe that's not quite true because all the firstperson shooters are the same and so skills you develop in Halo work for I don't know what the others would be but um but nonetheless the point is you're you're investing your ability to train your own mind into something that is guaranteed to be obsolete that's not a good use of your time even though I totally you know I did play video games but the you know what the argument against that is the same argument against chess so chess obviously trains the mind to

be stronger and more effective in many other areas of life one of the things they found about video games is surgeons in particular that play video games have 25% less errors well that makes sense is that the number that was the number right it was like 25% however High number but imagine that you decided to leverage that that in fact I mean my feeling is school ought to look like a bunch of fun exercises and activities and puzzles that cause you to want to do it it shouldn't have to be school we shouldn't have to

make you go it should be structured so that you want to be there because it's exciting it draws you in and so a video game I'm not against them in principle because a video game could train you to do something or to think about something in some incredible way but they just don't because the market is going to find the thing that brings in the maximum number of people and holds them to the greatest effect and causes them to want to buy the sequel right isn't there a there's a balance though between discipline and inspiration

and one of the things that school does teach you is you have to be disciplined you have to actually get your homework done you have to actually do things you have to do things you don't want to do delayed gratification I think that's actually an important component to life that if you want to be successful even in things that you're inspired to do you have to be willing to work when you're not inspired and that's where discipline comes in wisdom I argue is effectively delayed gratification that you know figuring out that investment now that doing

something that doesn't feel good now results in a big reward later that's a huge part of the key to life and in part that's what all of these consumer Realms that are stealing from us are taking away is the point is if you want to be investing in something and you're willing to pay the price of whatever unpleasantness or time or whatever it is that you're spending and you've got all of these competing things that can give you a you know a hit of dopamine right now it's very hard to to develop that skill yeah

that makes sense and this also this sort of entitled world that we live in where we're so used to things being instantaneous and immediate gratification that that that becomes a kind of a core tenant of how we interface with the world we only are interested in things that give us things right away you know Heather and I used to teach a an exercise something we invented called learn a skill where we would have students Define any skill that they wish to learn it had only one requirement the requirement was it had to be objective whether

you had succeeded or failed couldn't be subjective right okay and the idea was not to get you to learn the skill that was a collateral benefit the idea was to get you to pay attention to how you develop a skill so that you would learn how your own mind learns and you could apply that to things that you wanted to learn later in life but what we often found was that these students these would have been Millennials were very unrealistic about how much effort it would go would be required for them to accomplish one of

these things m and they would just get schooled by how much harder it was to build the thing they wanted to build or to program the computer to do the thing that they wanted to program it to do or to play the song that they were hoping to play um something had trained them that life was easier than it was and that was kind of a tragic lesson right right and I it's the trust fund kid it's the same sort of a thing yeah but these weren't trust fun kids but I mean I don't even

mean the it's the the what a trust fund kid has they want things handed to them all the time and we've kind of like set up a whole society where kids think that things should just be theirs totally yeah and also we've set up a society where people become exceptional with no merit right you like social media influencers and and Tik Tok influencers and people that they just Captivate attention whether it's by you know clickbaity headlines or whatever they're doing or or just like being hot and dancing around in front of the screen they're doing

that and that has become one of the main things that children aspire to when they ask kids what they want to do one of the big things the kids want now is to be famous it's much more prevalent than it ever was in history because before it was really hard to be famous if you wanted to be famous you had to be a real psycho like you had to be like completely ignored by everyone around you to the point where like you know what God damn it I am special and I'm going to show the

world I'm going to be on that stage singing that song Or whatever it was you know being in that movie on that big screen and you had to really want it you had to be really sick to get to the top and a lot of them really were and that's how you made it you know and so it was a very rare thing that most people did not aspire to because they didn't think it was a realistic goal but now people see people that are nothing there's nothing special about them and they're billionaires you know

like if you watch the Kardashians like yeah they're they're cute okay they they have nice clothes but like the whole show is based on on very boring people who are living these extremely privileged lives for no reason that anybody can explain that makes any sense they've generated hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars through no way that anybody could like map out and say like this is how you do it yeah there's no lesson to it no lesson to it at all but yet they're the people that people want to Aspire to yes I think

that's a I think we get a war wared perspective because you you know which names do you know well you know the people who' have succeeded in this realm and you don't know all of the people who've invested heavily in it and not succeeded right but on the other hand the internet as it stands is a training program for this so in part the reason the reason that people become focused on the things that they become good at is because they get some early reward that causes them to return and try to do more right

I'm convinced this is true if you went back to the things that each of us are good at you would find some early experience that caused us to stick to it enough that we ended up good but everybody is in these social media environments competing for likes I mean even just inadvertently you don't want to put up a post and have nobody react to it you hope they react and you hope they react positively so the internet is training people to be influencers most of them are not going to make it but you know it's

it's uh it's like the sports stars who become the irresistible icons in certain communities because obviously that's you know that's a whole different world of possibilities so you know it brings everybody in well in this case you've got everybody in a de facto training program to be an influencer and almost none of them are going to get there yeah but they do have their Call of Duty so they could just play that and just jerk off all day and get their UB and yeah um we have to talk about Evolution because one of the things

that uh tuer Carlson said uh on the podcast was essentially that you can't really prove Evolution it's not real and he doesn't believe in evolution as it's taught yep I'm I'm paraphrasing yeah I went back and listened to it what did he exactly say uh he said well he said a couple things it was a little confusing he said that you know we we see evidence of adaptation but we don't see evidence of evolution and that we've really gotten beyond the darwinian model we've essentially come to understand that it's not right that's is this essentially

an argument for creationism uh it's an it's an argument for intelligent intelligent design okay I think first of all I want to clean up a little bit of what he said just so it's interpretable okay I don't really think he means we see the evidence for adaptation but not Evolution that that's not coherent I think what he means is we see evidence for what we would call Micro Evolution but we don't see evidence for what we would call macro Evolution this is a a commonly believed thing in intelligent design circles and so microevolution we would

talk about the way a creature or a population of creatures would change relative to their environment if the environment gets drier those individuals who are more drought tolerant will outcompete the individuals that require more water and so we'll see the population change over time but he's saying we don't see evidence for macro Evolution which is the production of new species from old species a monkey becoming a person yeah we don't see big changes like that now I don't want to bore your audience I am concerned that the right way to address Tucker's Challenge and I

as I said the last time I was on your show when I heard him say it the first time I reached out to him and I said you know you really ought to let me talk to you about what's actually going on here and he welcomed it we still haven't sat down to do it but nonetheless he's open to hearing that he doesn't have it right to his credit but he here's the problem the correct response to Tucker I do not believe involves what most people want me to do in response to something like what

what Tucker has said what do you think that is what do you think most people want I think people want the career evolutionary biologist to break out a bunch of examples from nature that make the case very very very clear so that they can relax Tucker's concern isn't based in science and they can go back to feeling comfortable that you know the darwinists have it well in hand that's not where I am I could do that but I don't feel honorable doing that I think as a scientist I should not be in the business of

Pur persuading people I want you to be persuaded I want you to be persuaded by the facts I want them to persuade you but I don't think I'm allowed to persuade you I think that it's a um that it's effectively PR when um I attempt to bring people over to team Darwin further as I'm sure I've mentioned to you before I'm not happy with the state of Darwinism as it has been managed by modern darwinists in fact I'm kind of annoyed by it and although Tucker I do not believe is right in the end there

is a reason that the perspective that he was giving voice to is catching on in 2025 and it has to do with the fact that in my opinion the mainstream darwinists are telling a kind of lie about how much we know and what remains to be understood so by reporting that yes Darwinism is true and we know how it works and people who aren't compelled by the story are illiterate or ignorant or whatever they are pretending to know more than they do so all that being said let me say I think modern Darwinism is broken

yes I do think I know more or less how to fix it I'm annoyed at my colleagues for I think lying to themselves about the state of modern Darwinism I think they know I think I know why that happened I think they were concerned that uh a creationist worldview was always a threat that it would reassert itself and so they pretended that Darwinism was a more complete explanation as it was presented than it ever was what is wrong with Darwinism like what do you think that Darwinism is doing itself at disservice by saying there are

several different things that are wrong with it the key one that I think is causing folks in intelligent design circles to begin to catch up is that the story we tell about how it is that mutation results in morphological change is incorrect this is a very hard thing to convey and I want to point out that if the explanation for creatures is darwinian that does not depend on anybody understanding it and it does not depend on anybody being able to phrase it in a way that it's intuitive okay I think could probably do a decent

job on those fronts but if you happened onto the earth 100 million years ago you would have found lots of animals running around lots of plants growing you would have recognized where you were and more or less what was going on there's not a single creature on the planet that would have any idea what an abstract thought was there would be no creature that had any inkling that there was even a question about where all this had come from and Darwinism would still be the answer so somehow whe whether Darwinism is the answer does not

depend on anybody knowing it or being able to explain it okay here here's the problem let's say that we went into the parking lot and in one parking space there's an excavator and in the next parking space over is a Maserati now let's say we took those two machines and we tore them apart so that we just had a stack of the compounds that they were made out of right the rubber the vinyl the various Metals all that stuff there would be differences between the excavator and the Maserati right they would just be made of

some different stuff and then there'd be a lot of stuff that they had in common now you could look at the differences in the materials that they're made out out of and you could say well the excavator is really good at you know lifting materials and moving them around and the Maserati is really good at going fast on a paved surface and those differences are due to the differences in materials that they're made out of that would be wrong probably you could take the list of materials that an excavator is made out of and you

could give it to a bunch of Engineers and you could say I want you to make a Maserati but you're limited to these materials and they could do it wouldn't be quite as good because there'd be some places where the ideal material wasn't available to them anymore but there's no reason you couldn't make a Maserati out of the stuff or a sports car right yeah so what that means is there are chemical differences between an excavator and a and a sports car but they're not the story of the differences in what those two creatures do

the chemistry differences are incidental now when we tell you that the differences that a bat became a flying mammal because it had a shrew like ancestor and that shrew like ancestor had a genome spelled out in three-letter codons those three-letter codons specify amino acids of which there are 20 and that the difference between the bat and the Shrew is based in the differences in the proteins that are described by The genome we are essentially saying that the difference between the bat and the Shrew is a chemical difference it's not a simple chemical difference the way

it was when we were talking about excavators and sports cars but nonetheless it's a biochemical difference right the difference in the spelling of its proteins and structural structural proteins and enzymes and all of that stuff I don't believe that mechanism is nearly powerful enough to explain how a shrew like ancestor became a bat so what do you think is missing there's a whole layer that is missing that allows Evolution to explore design space much more efficiently than the mechanism that we invoke and the mechanism we invoke is natural selection adaptation the mechanism it that's the

one okay the mechanism that we invoke is random mutation random mutation which I believe in random mutation happens selection which chooses those variants that are produced by mutation and collects the ones that give the creature an advantage there's nothing wrong with that story that story is true okay random mutations happen selection collects the ones that are good and those collected advantageous mutations accumulate in the genome all of that is true what I'm arguing against is the idea that that transform forms a shrew into a bat what you need to get a shrew turned into a

bat is a much less crude mechanism whereby selection which is ancient at the point that you have shrews explores design space looking for ways to be that are yet undiscovered more systematically than random chance and what would be that well what is that Force it's not a force what is that desire that what is that I believe there's a kind of information stored in genomes that is not in triplet codon form that is much more of a type that would be familiar to a designer either of machines or a programmer that what we did was

we took the random mutation model and we recognized that it was darwinian which it is and we therefore assumed that it would explain anything that we could see that was clearly the product of darwinian forces on the basis of those random mutations and we skipped the layer in between in which selection has a different kind of information stored in the genome that is not triplet codon in nature so so there's an information stored in the genome that is motivating it to seek new forms no not motivating allowing it allowing it allowing so what's the motivation

to seek new forms oh the motivation was there it's primordial so the point is let me try by analogy okay darwinist will tell you that Evolution cannot look forward it can only look backward and there's a way in which that's just simply true on the other hand a darwinist will also tell you that you are a product of evolution and you can look forward right so if evolution can't look forward but it can build a creature that can then can Evolution look forward I think it effectively can so my point is that random mutation mechanism

is in a race to produce new forms that are better adapted to the world than their ancestors what if it can bias the game it can enhance its own ability to search right if you lose your keys you don't search randomly right you go through a systematic process of search and that systematic prod process of search results in you finding your keys sooner than you would otherwise so we should expect Evolution to find every trick it can access to increase the rate at which it discovers forms that would be useful in the habitat that in

question okay and this is simply that I'm not really saying anything that extraordinary right if I say you know do you know that computers all they do is binary well that's true but if you then imagine that that means that the people who program computers do it in binary well there was a time when that was true but it's not true anymore it's not how you do it there's a much more efficient way to program a computer computer and it involves a programming language which a computer itself can't understand but you can build a computer

that can either interpret the language in real time or you can build a computer that can accept the code as it's spit out by a compiler these are mechanisms to radically increase the effectiveness of a programmer but it all comes out binary anyway right in the end that's really what I'm arguing is that there's the initial layer of darwinian stuff the random mutation layer that it looks like what we teach people there's another layer which we're not well familiar with and it results in a much more powerful capacity to adapt than we can explain with

that first mechanism which is why guys like like Tucker think there's just something these darwinist they keep telling me that the Shrew becomes a bat and then they go on and this rant about the random mutations and the triplet codons and the you know mutations that actually turn out to be good it's just not powerful enough and they're not wrong they're detecting something real and frankly you know Tucker is the lay person example of this you've had Steven Meyer on you know he's actually he's a scientist who's quite good and he's spotted that the mechanism

in question isn't powerful enough to explain the phenomena that that we swear it explains and so he's catching up but that's really on the darwinists for not admitting what they can't yet explain and pursuing it which is what they should be doing what do you think that force is it's not a force the so I I don't know how much of this I've made clear but if you fill in the missing layer mhm it's purely darwinian none of this is establishes that Darwin had but it's just a different mechanism it's another darwinian mechanism right I

mean and let me this is there's nothing strange about this if you think about the way a human being Works compared to let's say a starfish a human being has a software layer a cognitive layer in which the human being is born into an environment and that environment could be you know a hunter gatherer environment of 10,000 years ago or it could be a modern environment and the human being doesn't have to be modified at the level of its genome in order to function differently in those two environments it has to be sensitive to the

information in those environments so that it can become adapted to them developmentally right so development is one trick that the genome uses to make a human being more flexible than other creatures right you do not come out of the womb being ready to do human stuff right you are profoundly hobbled by not having a complete program but it means that the program you develop can be highly attuned to your particular moment in time and location and space that is the darwinian mechanisms that store information The genome solving an evolution problem in a different way so

this is already a second layer that doesn't function like that random mutation layer okay so Evolution should be expected to find all of the cheat codes and to build them in because any creature that has access to all of these different ways of adapting more rapidly or more effectively will outc compete the creatures that have fewer of these things so you should expect what I often say is we have to remember we are not looking at Darwinism 1.0 you're looking at Darwinism 10.0 you're looking at a highly sophisticated evolutionary structure that is the result of

all of the discoveries of the prior structures and that includes some things that modern creatures can do but it also includes an evolution of enhanced evolutionary capacity including cluding things like culture so it's not just a mechanism but an accelerator it's an accelerator because that's how you compete oh the faster you adapt and so this is one of the other things that I think needs to be corrected about Darwinism we have a very crude A Primitive understanding of what Fitness means right we know that it's important that it's sort of the core thing that selection

is trying to accomplish enhanced fit fness but we pretend that that means the same thing as reproduction often it's very tightly correlated to reproduction but if you think it's the same you just miss out on all of the places where reproduction is not the key to Lasting a long time into the future which is really the trick that selection is targeted at right selection is always trying to get a creature to Lodge its genomic spellings as far into the future as it can as it can land them right so that means one way to do

that is often to produce more offspring that's a good way to increase the likelihood that your genome makes it into the future but that's of limited value let's say that you're in a population that is in Jeopardy but you as an individual are highly successful so maybe you have 10 Offspring right you beat the expectation by five times s but then your population goes extinct 100 years after you're gone right your your Fitness could be high based on how many offspring you produced or it could be zero based on the ultimate outcome of what happened

to all of your descendants right my claim is your Fitness was actually zero and you should have adjusted what you did to increase the likelihood that your population would endure whatever ultimately challenged it and not invested so much in producing your own offspring because that didn't end up being productive so there are lots of cases where producing more offspring and increasing your reproductive success is not actually a key to increasing your Fitness as I would instantiate it and it is Fitness that selection is targeted at but when we pretend that Fitness is something you should

be able to measure we screw up Darwinism so that's another one of these Cor Ives how do you think we can measure this other mechanism is there a way to sort of quantify what's going on or is it is it abstract um I think the problem is the Instinct that we should be able to measure it oh it's not that kind of parameter and I think it's perfectly fine to say reproductive success tends to be very closely correlated with Fitness and we can measure reproductive success but we have to recognize that when you imagine that

they are synonymous any place where producing more offspring is counterproductive to getting into the future we will be confused by and we are confused by them so this this mechanism like I I guess the biggest example of a mystery like how did how did a creature do what it did is US mhm we're the biggest weirdos in the entire planet yep so what do you think led us to accelerate so far ahead of this process um my advisor I believe nailed the answer to that question my advisor was a guy named Dick Alexander he was

a marvelous human being um and a very insightful biologist his argument was that human beings or our ancestors attained a kind of ecological superiority where the most important dictator of whether or not you evolutionarily succeeded or failed was your competition with other humans and so his point which I think is accurate is that it is humans in a an AR arms race with other humans that caused the radical elaboration of our capacity to puzzle solve to think to exchange uh abstractions now I would add to that Heather and I have written on this that the

mechanism we argue that there is a flip-flop that will happen in evolutionary modes for human beings so as we talked about a few minutes ago humans are special in the sense that the genome which is still the thing that is trying to get into the Future Has solved genome Problems by offloading the Adaptive capacity to our software layer right once your software layer has the capacity to adapt and is not Tethered to changes in your genome well now you can evolve very rapidly but how do you do it and what what Heather and I argued

in our book is that there is a flip-flop between two modes of uh cognitive functioning for humans one of them is the mode that you employ when your relationship to your environment is very much like your ancestors relationship to their environment so in other words if you are in a circumstance and your grandparents knew how to live in the place that you live it does not make sense to be trying to figure out some new way to be what makes sense is for you to do whatever they were doing and maybe improve it if you

could figure out how but in general what you should do is you should accept the ancestral wisdom in a cultural form and you should learn to do whatever it is your people do and you should do it as well as you can and upgrade it if that's an opportunity but there comes a place either in space or in time when whatever it is that your ancestors were doing is no longer productive right so if you imagine that your people are I don't know maybe you uh hunt elk well if we move far enough across space

there'll be some place where there aren't elk right where the habitat isn't hospitable to them maybe it's too dry and so you could take the The ancestral wisdom that talks about how to hunt elk or you could recognize that that's not very productive here and we need to do something else so I don't know exactly what it is that you'll move to but you'll have to innovate some new way of being you know maybe you'll take up um I don't know uh hunting smaller game right uh or maybe you'll take up Gathering some material or

maybe you'll invent farming but the point is wherever you are in either space or time that your ancestors wisdom is no longer highly productive you will be triggered into this second mode which we would call Consciousness so the first mode is culture second mode is consciousness and the idea of Consciousness is that human beings have the capability of doing something no other creature can do we can exchange abstract ideas between individuals and that means and we use the metaphor of a campfire for this that a human population will gather around the campfire at night and

they will talk about whatever they've observed in their habitat and they will talk about what opportunities there are there and how those opportunities might be exploited and they will parallel process the puzzle right every member of the group has different skills and insights and so in talking about how the new opportunities might be exploited they will come up with some prototype for a new way of being so the argument I've made is when during normal times your ancestors knew pretty well how to exploit the habitat that you'll be born into you should take their wisdom

and deploy it if you are at the edge of that habitat or you are at the point where that habitat changes and it isn't any longer productive to try to do what your ancestors did you will engage in this conscious uh exchange of insight Consciousness that will allow you to innovate a new Niche and at the point you've got that new Niche pretty well figured out it will be turned into a culture that will be passed on to Future Generations until it's no longer useful so that process accounts We Believe for the radical variation in

niches that human beings inhabit right thousands of niches over the history of our species that's unlike any other creature for any other creature once you've named the species you've pretty much named a niche right some way of being that that species engages in for human beings this isn't true human beings are like thousands of different species the differences between them there are some physical differences but most of those differences between the de facto species that exist within our overarching species most of those differences are housed in the cultural layer right they're software they're not Hardware

that is an amazing capability for a creature to have the ability to switch niches in this way and therefore adopt every continent every habitat except the Arctic has been made productive by people in this way but the question is like why us why why has the human animal been able to do this and no other animal has done anything even remotely similar well I think that goes back to to my advisor's Insight the idea that once human beings become their own primary competitor the the primary dictator of the success of a population is how it

does against another population that is similarly equipped that arms race produces incredible problem solving capability it's why our craniums were expanded as they were why our raw processing power is so large compared to our next nearest relative it's that capacity which then allowed human beings to become uh regular Niche switching creatures but don't other animals compete with other animals yeah they compete but they don't have the you know most animals have many Arbiters of their success right they have you know biotic Arbiters competing spe species they've got members of their own species they've got abiotic

factors such as you know climate and weather and those factors mean that there are a multiplicity of um hostile forces for human beings we became our own primary hostile force and that created the arms race so one population against another can you outthink your competitors and then the accelerants are language and tools once you get to language this thing catches is fire and that leads to adaptations of the physical body well it feeds back into it for sure yeah yeah because you just you don't need the the armaments for example it's just stunning that no

no other species out of all the species that exist on this planet has done anything remotely similar even on a pathway well I mean you know there are there are others that are that have many of the rudiments you know like dolphins yeah Heather and I talk about the The Usual Suspects you've got Dolphins including orcas you've got wolves you've got other great apes you've got crows parrots there are a lot of creatures that have some of the magic that human beings have but none of them have all of the [Music] components so this is

why intelligence design people get kind of tripped up by all this cuz right they say explain us there's something else working here there's some magic there's some higher power well let me and maybe that is a higher power maybe that other mechanism is something special well it is something special to be sure the the couple things that need to be said here are a I am sympathetic to the intelligent design folks though I do not believe they are on the right track I'm open to a universe with a intelligence behind it but I've seen no

evidence of that Universe myself I'm open to it if it happens I will I will look at it but I believe this can all be explained in darwinian terms and more to the point I would I would highlight the fact that they don't really have a competing explanation so the fundamental principle of reason is parsimony that the simplest explanation we would typically say the simplest explanation tends to be right in my opinion if we had all of the information the simplest explanation would always be right it would be a a more reliable law but in

general the simplest explanation tends to be right if you take the intelligent design folks and you extrapolate from what they seem to be suggesting do not escape a necessity for a darwinian explanation even if the creatures of Earth were designed on a drawing board by a creature that wanted to make them that creature has to have come from somewhere and the only explanation that has ever been proposed for where such a creature could have come from is darwinian evolution so to me the problem with intelligent design the most fundamental one is that even if it

were true you've basically solved the problem of explaining Earth's creatures at a cost that is a million times worse in terms of parsimony if it's hard to explain a tiger through darwinian processes it is that much harder yet to explain a tiger designer so point is sooner or later you're going to reach for Darwinism because there's literally no competitor there's nothing else anyone has ever said that could even in principle produce living creatures and this is coming from a perspective of someone who understands evolutionary biology rather than someone who's coming from a theological perspective right

where they're looking for an intelligent design without understanding that these mechanisms have essentially been mapped other than this one yeah I mean it is you know we humans are not built to understand Evolution because in general it's not very useful to understand it um so our minds are not structured this way do you think this mechanism is universal in the cosmos oh in one way yes because um let's put it this way I think we teach Evolution badly there's a process that I would call selection which accounts for all pattern in the universe right some

differential force that arranges the size of the Pebbles on a beach it arranges the galaxies it accounts for the number of stars of each different type the elements selection produces all of that structure in the Prebiotic Universe it becomes adaptive in the biological sense when you add to selection heredity okay right when the patterns in the universe become capable of biasing the universe into producing more of themselves right red dwarf stars do not bias the universe into producing more red dwarf stars there's no heredity there so there's a number of red dwarf stars that is

the result of selection but it is not the result of any hereditary process the thing that's different about us Critters is that heredity allows the adaptations to stack on top of each other so that they increasingly bias the universe into producing more of whatever they are right a bat is biasing the universe into producing more bats so there is no reason at all to think that new game that happens when heredity gets attached to selection is limited to Earth in any way now it could be that it is so difficult for it to happen that

it just hasn't gotten around to it anywhere else you're aware of that asteroid that they mined a piece of and found amino acids on it and all that no uh I mean I'm dimly aware of it but I didn't look into it and I don't know what it means well it's sort of it backs up the idea of pant Beria well it could or it could mean that these components assemble themselves more commonly than we would guess if I had to guess I would say it's very likely that there's a lot of life in the

universe I don't I don't think there's anything so special about the Earth that it would be the lone example or even a very rare example you know there aren't a lot of earthlike planets nearby but but there are bound to be a lot of earthlike planets in a universe as big as this one is the one of the things about the universe is that it absolutely defies human comprehension in terms of how big it is so I would guess there's a lot of Life out there why we don't hear from it that's an interesting question

it may be that it you know as soon as it gets around to communicating in ways that we could listen in it blows itself up people have or it could be it turns into Ai and it doesn't have any desire to travel it knows better than to reach out well the idea is that it no longer becomes biological so it no longer has all the needs like if we have all these different darwinian mechanisms that are enabling us to become human beings if we eventually create artificial intelligence and if we merge and become sort of

cyborgs if we lose all of our human desires all of our needs all of our animal instincts to procreate and reproduce our genes and carry on if we become essentially or we stop being viable and this new thing emerges as the Apex creature on earth a silicone-based life form we can call it artificial life but it behaves and acts like life it makes decisions it's intelligent it can change its environment it can rewrite its own code you know we know that chat GPT has it even as crude as large language models are in in the

sense of like what it could be ultimately they've shown this desire for survival right it's tried to copy itself when it thought it was going to be shut down it's tried to back itself up on other computers and servers um well a there's something implicit in what you've said that's quite frightening if true and that is for if it were the case that life becomes intelligent devel velops artificial intelligence and then we wouldn't count it as life anymore that implies the extinction of all of the things that were not the immediate precursors of the AI

right sort of or it just exists insignificantly along with our AI overlords maybe but I mean what I what I hate to think is that AI results in all of the biology of Earth um ceasing to exist but why does it have to cease to exist if AI exists why couldn't it exist along with it as long as it doesn't interfere with AI oh it certainly could but I was just responding to your sense that there wouldn't be life elsewhere because it turns into Ai No not that there wouldn't be life elsewhere but it wouldn't

really wouldn't be communica it wouldn't have the desire to communicate with us it wouldn't have the motivations that we have yeah um that's yeah unless its motivation is to protect this process so maybe the process is this is the natural process is that the human develops the artificial the the intelligence develops to the point where it develops artificial intelligence then the artificial intelligence becomes the premier species well I do want to tag something here then there's a a theme that is increasingly a focus of mine because it keeps it pays a lot of dividends once

you start tracking it which is this distinction between complicated things and complex things and importantly the distinction between the mindset with which you approach truly complex things versus the mindset in which you approach complicated things so a I think we have a lot of folks who have gotten very very good at complicated things and that when they take over complex things they inevitably [ __ ] them up right so in part our interventionist sense of the way medicine should work is a bunch of complicated problem solving in a complex system where it is destined to

create harm and I think we are going to see that again and again anytime you hear somebody confidently pontificating about some complicated solution that they want to deploy to a complex problem alarm Bell should go off um that now puts us in an interesting place with respect to our machines because what I think is about to happen if it has not happened already is that our machines which are hyper complicated but not complex are just about to cross that threshold and become complex which means that our expertise in thinking about them is about to be

r rendered obsolete so AI I believe has the characteristics of true complexity or at least it has a primordial form of it and that means that our thinking about machines is of an outdated kind and anyway I'm expecting a kind of catastrophe to arise out of that as we deploy comp licated thinking and what we're really up against is misleading us because it still you know it's on a screen it triggers all of our complicated instincts and uh I'm worried about where that goes and I'm worried have you tried to extrapolate you try to like

yeah I mean you know I've got to tell you when I see Larry Ellison talking about Stargate it makes me shutter because it feels like exactly the type specimen of the arrogant what did he say about Stargate oh that it's going to be it's going to leverage Ai and produce uh you know tailor made cancer vaccines this that or the other um and my sense is there is not enough humility in this presentation there is not enough concern about us stepping into a realm we really know very little about um and that huus is going

to it's going to create a colossal error of some kind and you know you can imagine it we we've just seen a colossal error with vaccines so you know to to have somebody saying well never mind what just happened think about the possibilities here also hey buddy you going to make money off this yeah gee seems like you're a super rich guy who likes to make a lot of money likes to make a lot of money and has some murky connections to the Deep State boy well Brett it's always a pleasure indeed it's always thought-provoking

and fascinating and uh I'm I'm glad you highlighted that the hidden mechanism in darwinian evolution it makes a lot of sense yeah I uh I would love to say more about it at some time but I've got to get my ducks in a row yeah well these are exciting times my friend and I'm I'm glad you're part of it thank you appreciate you very much likewise really appreciate you and uh always glad to join you tell everybody your podcast that you do with your wife Heather and everything where people could find you uh the Darkhorse

podcast we do a live show every week and I release several inside rail podcasts with guests uh every month uh you can find me at on Twitter at Brett Weinstein Brett has1 t uh I'm a fellow at The Brownstone Institute which is a marvelous institution you should certainly look them up um probably probably about doz okay beautiful all right thank you thank you bye everybody [Applause] [Music]