The Psychology of Selling: Neuroscientist Explains How To Sell Anything to Anyone - Rene Rodriguez

selling is change it's a behavior change he's considered by a lot more than many as one of the leading authorities on leadership and influence Renee Rodriguez is the bestselling author keyote speaker leadership advisor and transfer speaker coach when I was a kid my mom asked me a question she said Renee what look in this room and what does everybody have in common she say Rene they all have a brain If you understand how the brain works life becomes just exponentially easier you're obviously a body language expert as well why is body language is so important

it's really about the meaning that people associate to it and you combine tone and body you have 93% of the impact you make on people has nothing to do with the words I want to talk about the relationship between body language and your tonality they both go hand in hand the research behind that basically says if you're feeling sad or let's say you're not feeling confident your posture on that phone call even though they can't see it is 100% affecting the tone of your voice but as you know Renee try having a confused tone with

the straight face cuz your brain is designed to work in a congruent fashion you know I've get leaders that will do micro expression stuff and they're like well can you get me to stop doing that I'm like well do you believe in what you're saying there he goes well I the no how about we talk about something you believe in all right welcome to another episode of closers or losers Jeremy Miner uh Our Guest today I you know I always geek out on this type of stuff human behavior the psychology behind why human beings do

anything in their life amazes me so when I find a guest you know I typically will follow them for a while you know like are they real do they have legit stuff are they an expert or are they an amateur now this person is an expert that's why he's here so I've been following him for about six months he's considered by I would say a lot more than many as one of the leading authorities on leadership and influence Renee Rodriguez is the bestselling author keynote speaker leadership advisor and transfer speaker coach and for the last

27 years he doesn't look that old Renee has been researching and applying behavioral Neuroscience all of of the toughest challenges leadership sales and change you know if you follow me for a moment you know all I talk about is selling all sales is is change that's really what CH human behavior it's about how good you are at getting the prospect to view in their mind that by changing their situation that means purchasing what you're offering is far less risky for them than doing nothing at all staying in the status quo and their problems state of

the Saints we're going to talk to Renee about that now as an entrepreneur and CEO uh Renee integrates a practical business approach that inspires his audiences to take action I've heard from many other speakers that he typically gets voted speaker of the event the number one speaker and through his keynote boot camps workshops and proprietary amplify course which I'm about to take he helps us own our backstory to build the frame for not only our unique value propositions but also a beautiful picture of Life greater influence greater transformation more sales he is the author of

a best-selling book amplify your influence Wall Street Journal bestseller which was selected as the best business book 2022 by summary.com and he shared his stage with I would say Ed melet Tony Robbins and Gary and Ryan holiday have shared the stage with this guy Renee how are you man I'm doing great what an intro man thank you it's an honor to be here hey I you know I geek out about this stuff so I want to I want to jump right into it so let's talk about your book okay amplify your influence who did you

write the book for and for what reason you know it's a good question and I want to do before I say I want to Echo back I've been following you and your stuff and and I was telling my my team and my wife I was like you finally a sales trainer is here and he's arrived and and I get the call all the time who who's sales training and and even though I do it I'm like no no no you got to call Jeremy Jeremy's the guy start following him and you'll see what I mean

so one honor to be here so why did we write the book you know the the the in in 30 years now of doing this and I got to update that I've come to realize it's the one thing and you said it right you nailed it selling is change it's a behavior change if it's spending money over here you're going to spend it over here now if it's behaving this way you're going to behave that way now now and change we are biologically built to resistance to resist it for good reason you know it's just

for very good reason it's just very hard when we're trying to grow which makes it hard which is also what makes it valuable and so influence to me is what I found to be at the core of what leadership is and at what selling is you know so the way that I talk about influence is to more of a philosophical approach let's take it away for a minute you walk in a room and no one notices you tell a joke and no one laughs you sell a product and no one buys you share an idea

and no one cares you cast a vision and no one follows that's a pretty horrifying experience good some people yeah and but then if you really think about it you'd probably say okay well like for example like okay it's the the feelings are invisible but I would say insignificant and if you were in a meeting and you felt insignificant you'd say why I'm in this meeting if you were in a relationship and you felt insignificant you'd say why am I in this relationship if you're at work feeling the same way why am I here and

so but a lot of people feel that way about life and they start asking some really tough questions and so I say Okay so let's bring influence back I tell a joke I I I walk in a room people notice I tell a joke people laugh I sell the product that people are buying I share an idea people love it I cast a vision and people mobilize and take action now all of a sudden there is no question about why I'm here I know why I'm in this relationship in this business I know why it

is that I I'm on the stage or selling this product or whatever it is on life and so I think the lack of influence is one of the worst of human experiences and having it is one of the best and so we look at it from the realization that is your fingerprint on the world it is the re the thing that is the Core Essence of what your purpose is when you can Define it and do it you can live it well I think I think every I think you hit it right on the head

I think I mean it doesn't matter even if you're in sales or not like you're you're out trying like I don't care if you're a school teacher if you're a stay-at-home parent if you're a politician Ian if you're an attorney if you're a doctor like everyone's in sales like every day even if you don't get paid to make a sale I call that non-sale selling you're still out there as you know trying to persuade influen and you're trying to move others to your way of thinking every single day right so influence persuasion and sales if

you master that it's really hard to be unsuccessful like really hard like tell me a person that is not extremely talented cu they've learned sales influence and persuasion that's not successful like I just I don't know anybody I know lots of people that don't learn that they're extremely unsuccessful because of that absolutely it is the core and and everybody says I'm not in sales are usually the ones that don't realize that they are trying to persuade somebody kids are doing that like ever since we're born it's in our nature to try to align life the

way that we feel best serves us yeah if you're trying to you know if you're if you're an employee trying to convince your boss to give you a pay raise you're trying to influence persuade move if you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to get your your your employees to follow your vision of where you want to take your company you're trying to persuade you're trying to influence I mean if you're like I said an attorney trying to convince a judge that your client's innocent you see everybody's in P sales and persuasion in some sort your

parent trying to raise your children you know to train them to be adults you're trying to persuade influence so like everybody's doing this all the time right it's like one of the skills you have to have now I wanted to ask you I've got a bunch of questions for you man let's do it okay so maybe go over your background in Neuroscience this is really important because I find a lot of people that are out there talking about persuasion influence I don't really have a background with the way the brain makes decisions and I find

that odd because my backgrounds in Behavioral Science and I'm like if I didn't know all this stuff like I couldn't do what I did as a sales person or as a sales trainer so tell us your background and and why you really are fascinated in that facet yeah I no this is when I was a kid my mom asked me a question she said Renee look in this room and what does everybody have in common and I was looking at facial expressions and color skin and background said Rene they all have a brain If you

understand how the brain works life becomes just exponentially easier and so I went and took that advice and I said okay I I'm going to learn how the brain works so I went to school for Behavioral neuroscience and as I was doing that I realized that there's two sides to that and where the frustrating side of science was at the time in Psychology is summed up with one of my favorite psychologists of Martin Seligman and they said that you he he has a TED Talk where they asked him they said you know okay Mr Dr

slman you got one word on this interview I'm going to ask you a question I just need one word and and he goes great let's do it and he goes so what is the state of Psychology today and he said good I go okay hold on a second no no no no we I think we need a little bit more we'll give you two words two words the whole thing and goes back and says okay so Dr Sigman what is the state of Psychology today and he said not good wait a minute okay hold on

all right let's give him three words and does the whole thing Dr Silman tell us what uh you know what's the state of Psychology today he said not good enough and I thought that that was so fascinating because at the time psychology and behavioral neuroscience and all this stuff was about studying what was broken in the brain you're studying psychosis and disease and issues and Trauma and all that stuff nothing was done on human potential and that's where the the whole concept of positive psychology came out was saying what are we what what are we

capable of and that's where I started looking at saying okay what's the potentiality of this how do I apply this search This research to resolve a conflict to sell I was selling cookware so how do I get it to close a deal I I was 6'3 with a goatee and bald how do I how do I reduce the stress level of me entering that room so that people feel safer with me so I was always on the application side of that and so right now one of our partners is the co-founder of the neuro Leadership

Institute and we geek out he's 30 years in Neuroscience I'm 30 years in applied neuroscience and we go okay how does this work and he's like okay well this is the research how do you use that and he gives me that and I give him this and it's um I love that I think he said something important because you know when when I was in university you know my professors would you know they had the the theories and and the research but not like how to apply it to in a sales situation like here's the

right questions here's how to use your tone here's how to get the prospect to let their guard down so they emotionally trust you enough to tell you what's really going on right and so that's what I love doing is is taking the research and actually applying it to like real life sales situations um let's I want to talk about body language in Persuasion you know I I find you know salespeople and companies always come to and they're always like hey we need to get better at closing and I'm like what do you mean better at

closing they're like well we we we need to know how to close at the very end I'm like well that's not when the prospect makes a buying decision they don't make a decision to buy the car at the end when you use an option close and say do you want the red one or the blue one right that's not when they decide to buy if they say I want the blue one that means that they've already decided before you even ask that question otherwise the other PR is like well I'm still looking around right and

they give you an objection the same is made in that conversation from taking that Prospect from where they are now you know we call it the current state to where they now see they can be objective State and what's the Gap is all these new found problems your questioning ability your tone and your body language if they can see you even if they can't see your as you know your body language affects your tone causes them to start to see they have they didn't understand they had before so I want you as a you're obviously

a body language expert as well why is body language so important well if you think about it one you know and I want to touch on something you said earlier too which is the work you do one of the things that's so powerful about it is the language choices that you make that if to the untrained Eye and Ear doesn't seem like it makes a difference but those emotional responses and the triggers in the brain that are happening based on the choices and the of words that we use and I watch your videos over and

over because you master those those those phrases that are so critical and the same is true with body language if you if you go back to Dr Albert rabian which is probably the most misquoted misunderstood study of all time around you know words have 7% of impact oh 93 38% yeah 38 comes from tone of voice and you know 55% is body language or nonverbals and you combine tone and body you have 93% of the impact you make on people has nothing to do with the words but it's really about the meaning that people associate

to it and so if if you're looking at what we're communicating when it comes to meaning we light travels faster than sound and so I see you before I hear you and if you're walking in and your soldiers are hunched or you're not making eye contact there's all of these subconscious cues that are being sent to this part of the brain called the reticular activating system that's like this radar and the amydala that's looking for threat it's looking at those little little underlying pieces that is constantly seeking congruency and that's that's the piece that people

don't understand like you know we train people to be on stages and they go well can you can you can you be effective on stage trembling and they say no I said well hold on a second okay so if I'm trembling and you see my hand tremble and I'm trembling and I say gosh I'm so excited to be here uh just the the the 2020 2025 plan is going to be great there my words are saying it's great but my body language is saying I'm shaking and so there's an in congruency there and so and

they go well you can't shake I said no watch I'm shaking still and I go guys as you know um talking about this is not easy because um I'm shaking because this actually means a lot to me this means a lot to all of us and all of you mean a lot to me and so now all of a sudden there's a congruency and I'm okay with the shakes because now into our conversation earlier we have framed it and we have owned the frame that surrounds the shaking which means this means a lot if I'm

crying on stage sometimes I get emotional I say guys I'm emotional because this means a lot yeah framing you're raising you're raising your status in the prospect's mind it's so true the survival part of your brain is uh an interesting creature in it's in itself you know because you could be walking across the street at a grocery store right and a woman yells like really really loud and instantly you're going to like am I safe your survival brain just reacts right it doesn't even hear the words she said it just hears the tonality right so

you're reacting am I safe and then you know then our brain starts to like interpret the words and then you know neocortex is like oh she's just telling her son to be careful crossing the street you know but it's interesting you know because we train a lot of companies and salespeople how to cold call as well and and they they think it's like these magical words which some of it is there but I'm like it's really in your tonality because if you sound like hi my name is I'm with XYZ company the reason why I'm

calling you is well you sound like everybody else cold calling them and instantly their brain has a script to what to do to that because they've heard that before right so I have to interrupt that pattern because they don't have a script for that so I quite interesting what you're talking about here I 100% And I love that too because you're pointing out there's there's we can have an emotional response to something 5 to S seconds before we're consciously aware of it and we will show that emotional response on our body before we even are

KN like hey something wrong like what do you mean what's wrong I'm fine and then a minute later they're like yeah well of course yeah something's wrong it's like well I was giving it away earlier because there's that and this is where it gets really fascinating and scary the same time that there's us like you and I are having a conversation but there's another part of us that is monitoring constantly you know it's at system one and system two concept and so I'm here with you but there's another part of me that's just like looking

around and you know and if we can calm that one that's looking around that's where sales happen it's it's keeping the prospect's brain engaged because you know most sales people especially like they go into a presentation and the prospect starts to zone out thinking about like oh I got to pick up my kids today or you know I got to get this important assignment done by Friday and all that does is they're not really listening to what you're doing and then they have uncertainty so when you try to close in that uncertainty triggers objections installs

and it's like you know all all these salese that come to us and they're just like I got to get better objection handling I'm like well I can give you Band-Aids no problem but what if we talk you how to prevent most of the objections from happening in their brain because to me that would be a lot it's a lot easier to sell when I prevent most of the objections from happening objection prevention you know what I mean amen all right see see folks listening that is a sales trainer talking right there yeah well it's

more about objection prevention than handling you know when I got an objection as a salesperson in the trenches I I always for a split second I'm like oh what did I say what did I not ask that triggered that reaction from the prospect CU I'm always thinking like I'm the one causing the objections not the prospect yes you know how I'm communicating um and you're taking ownership to it I love that that's that's how you get that's how you become the the the best when you when you figure out like hey you know I'm responsible

for my results it's not the prospect's fault it's not like my leads are bad it's my communication skills right yes you know what I mean okay how philosophy I want to talk about the relationship between body language and your tonality what's that relationship why is so important they they they both both go hand in hand yeah and there's so much there's so much connection between the this is the the the the age-old Mind Body Connection too right so then you we know that how we feel our mind in essence affects our body if we're sad

we're going to look that way then it came out that is it asynchronous meaning can my body affect my mind and so if I might be feeling sad but what if I stood confidently would that change the neurons firing and absolutely does and so this is where where even Amy cudy wrote the book pres and she did her great Ted Talk on you know instead of fake it till you make it fake it till you become it and what's happening is the research behind that basically says if you're feeling sad or let's say you're not

feeling confident or to your audience here if you're doing if you're doing a cold call if you're in a call center if you're making phone calls your posture on that phone call even though they can't see it is 100% affecting the tone of your voice like we know this we call somebody you know when you woke them up like hey uh yeah what's up you sleeping no no no why and you know they are laying in bed barely have opened their mind yet and there's no hiding it we have all of those unconscious pieces that

are coming through our tone of voice and you know go back to Sales Training 101 put a mirror in front why are we smiling you know is there something happening there and if we can do that all of the idiosyncrasies all of the little nuances start to align and The Listener hears congruency again that is the word we're trying to create I'm happy then look happy and then you'll sound happy and there's all of these things that come together to put piece of the puzzle when one piece is off that's where people don't trust and

they might they're not going to be the ones that go well his eyebrow moved to the left and therefore there was an in congruency therefore we can't buy they don't say that they don't have the categories by which to intellectualize that process they just feel the process it's a subconscious yeah it's uh you I always say your tone your tone is how the prospect interprets the intention behind every question and everything you say that's how they interpret why you're saying what you're saying or why you're asking like if I if I went to let's say

my I've got a 17-year-old son right and let's do you have kids I have we have six yeah between me and my wife you're beating me man I only got five well done well done well done Rene so you got the you got the plus one on the basketball team so my son's 17 and let's say that he got arrested because he's going 105 and a 45 mph Kid Zone I don't even know let's just make something up and so as a dad I let's say I walk into the jail it's 1 in the morning

sat I'm pissed you know I can walk in and I can communicate I can get him defensive but like I'm so disappointed in you I can't believe you do something like that see my tone and my my arms are out here and as you know what is my son going to do defense he's going to get well yeah you didn't understand but if I come in and I simply change my tonality into more of a a concern tone a tone that shows EMP I put my hand on my chest and I say I'm so disappointed

in you why would you do that now what does my son do yeah no he can't there's nothing to defend he lets his guard down he knows I'm still upset and disappointed but he knows I love him I do this example where I Walk The Room uh another course called engag it's more on trust and teamwork and I'll have a handful of markers and they're sitting in a circle around me I said so what if I walked in the room and every time I spoke and I'll just launch a marker at somebody you watch them

you know and then I'll launch it over here and then I pretend to throw the third one but the whole role goes like this I didn't even throw it but your body and your mind was waiting for me to throw something so you aren't listening to what I'm saying you're waiting to defend yourself and if you're that speaker and this is where it comes down to what you're saying if we are have a even a history of being that person and we walk in the room they're already defending something that's coming and part of our

job is to be somebody that's easy to listen to which is really really hard it's getting them to let their guard down whether you're speaking on stage it because there you know as you know as soon as you walk up there they're picking up on social cues from you based on based on your your tonality your body language what you're saying and it causes their brain to either you know go into fight flight mode where they start getting on their phone just another speaker going to the bathroom right or triggers enough curiosity where they want

to engage and they're just like what's going on this is interesting right even as a speaker especially in sales if you're selling one to one it doesn't really matter I always say your your facial expression even your facial expressions or like the remote control to your tone right so like you know my my second career I was in B2B Enterprise level sales something like debt belief Services I'm calling like large companies you know Fortune 1000 to probably the top 5,000 companies and you know even on the phone cold calling you know I still had to

you know in certain circumstances you you change your fa look I'm not hold on walk me back what did you me when you said you're having issues with like the debt see that's a confused tone my facial expression shows that I'm confused now they can't see that right but as you know Renee try having a confused tone with a straight face yeah no yeah it's imposs it's so like the the the wait here's an fun example if you're listening to this and you can try this like we call it a neuro create a neurot traffic

jam because your brain is designed to work in a congruent fashion and you know I've get leaders that will do micro expression stuff and they're like well can you get me to stop doing that I'm like well do you believe in what you're saying there he goes well then no that's the response you want how about we talk about something you believe in first and then that'll magically change but if we say okay if we l of our eyebrows are curtains so you can open the curtains which is really nice things just like open them

up and you see my eyes hey how you doing but try closing them once like close your curtains really hard so that means like scrin your eyes like that and now try to smile at the same time it's just weird and they don't go together and so yeah so there's a lot of and you don't have to be a body language expert this is what I hope you guys that are listening you don't have to be an expert to understand it you just have to start listening to it and paying attention to what's going on

so true I always say listen to what the prospect means not just what they say those are it can be two different things like if I lean in and ask like a commitment question like to CL do you feel like this could be the answer for you and they're like yeah well a lot of say people like okay great and they're ready to you know assume the close here but what I just heard is uncertainty what I heard is you seem a bit uncertain when I asked that what's what's behind that well I'm not sure

about see I I'm hearing uncertainty I'm listening to what they mean not just what they say because I'm reading their tone right gold absolute gold and that's such a great example too that if they're so stuck on making a sale they're losing sight of all of the cues that are going to guide them there or guide them away that's the other piece too like sometimes we shouldn't be closing a deal and that's totally fine like I remember I was told two big lessons when I when I got cut for my basketball team going in uh

in college my sophomore year I asked an executive what's the one thing I need need to do do to be in their shoes when I get older and he looked at me and smiled and he said you learn how to sell if you learn how to sell you'll always be employed and I was like and this guy ran a $25 billion company and then the other piece was you know build a career don't make a sale and that's what you're talking about there is that piece of really listening to what's going on 100% because you

you make sales because you listen to what they mean not just what they say you lose sales because you don't listen to what they mean you you assume that you you want it to mean something when in reality you can tell by their tone they're not on board so I need to learn what their concern is help them overcome it and then loop back around and close the deal now you talk a lot about hand and arm movements um and how that affects how people perceive you maybe elaborate on that yeah so there if you

look at and one of our videos went crazy viral 26 million views of just making one movement where you get somebody on stage and their their hands will be by their sides and I then I'll stand next to them and I say okay so notice who I'm paying who are you paying attention to and I'll put my hands in the position you have them right there right you're right above your belly button and in this sort of ready position and but between your belly button and your eyes is what we call the influence Zone you

had another great name for that uh place and so it's just Z the trust zone right and so you're in there what it shows and it tells the brain oh this person is about to do something they're confident they're ready for the game I can throw them a pass I can ask them a question they're engaged versus hands down you're not and the brain is following those different elements and so then you look at even the studies that they did on Ted Talks and they looked at the top quartile tops TED talks and the bottom

ones and the uh bottom ones got an average of 131,000 views and they used about 250 some 237 I believe the number was hand gestures and the top TED Talks had an average of 4.3 million views so look at the difference 131,000 to 4.3 million that's a massive difference and they used 465 hand gestures and so when you look at the science I did a whole podcast on hand gestures and there's several different things one is we paint pictures with our hands and so we're watching people are watching us doing even how you and I

use them right now with whether it's sequencing or looking back whatever it is that we do we're painting pictures for them so when we remove our hands a couple things happens comprehension goes way down goes way down engagement goes way down but now the way hand gestures serve us is that we use them as cues for memory and so we're using our own hand gestures to even draw Upon Our Own memory and so it's like man what was that one thing and we're we're using you know you know even scratching our head like there's all

sorts of things that are causing us to use memory so hand gestures are huge yeah I always say you know to salese or companies that you're like you're like a conductor at the orchestra right so your hand gestures can control thought process is it can control how they perceive you as as you talk about it controls your tone and pacing out a long winded question you know a lot of people always ask me like why do you always have a pen in your hand and so what I always tell the the story of is when

I got into sales my my first job was doore sales and what college 2122 and I hired this tonality uh coach from Hollywood uh that trains a lot of well speakers uh Matthew mccon is one of his clients Leonardo dicapro Julie robs all and he's like you got to slow down your you ask your questions too fast you don't you don't give your you don't give them enough time to internalize what you're asking and so he gave me a pen he's like I want you literally like imagine you're you're a conductor and you're leading an

orchestra right so you're going to Pace out your questions with this pen to kind of control your your sequencing so when I ask a question I learn how to like slow down my tone more verbal pausing more verbal pacing like okay why is so important you now though right see I'm now I'm emphasizing now like it's now right now timing issue and I verbal pause right before that word because I want their brain to think about now not why is this or I could be like why is this so important to you now though now

I just forced their brain to focus on whatever this is you know but a lot of times you can you you can use a pen you can use your hand to kind of as a salesperson help you kind of pace out and slow down I think it's you know what I like about your use of pens too is so I don't use PowerPoint either and so I've always have an easel pad a whiteboard or something on stage with me and they're like well they there there's 3,000 people I'm like I just need to sometimes just

draw a line in a circle and but I love the pen like you're ready to show you're ready to train me on something you're ready to show me an illustration and the it's going to and the beautiful thing about pen is that it's custom for me in that moment and it's not something like the if if you were to draw the same picture but one have a PowerPoint image ready versus having a pen and draw a napkin presentation the napkin is so much more effective because there's zero sales resistance to that you know it's like

I give the example of you're at a dinner table and somebody says so what do you do and you pull out a laptop no yeah no or even you pull out a perspectus remember those things right start flipping through that perspective or you pull out a napkin you say well it's kind of like this and you drew this a couple couple drawings and all of a sudden it's there's no sales resistance to it it goes right past the parts of the brain that that wouldn't want to hear it and there's engagement and it's custom you're

creating brand new for me well it's authentic right so I always tell salespeople like when you're building out your presentations like you you have to keep the prospect engag you can't just like talk for five or 10 minutes straight and show a bunch of slides because when they start to see slides as you say it's almost like the guard goes up because they have a script for about about what's about to happen like the prospect already knows what that means right they're not they've been around the block so it's almost like you know taking your

PowerPoint that's you know 60 slides and woodl it down to like three or four or or whatever drawn on the napkin and even when you ask questions you know I always tell sales people like look you can't you've got your you know you've got your npq questions on your script but you're never going to stick to that 100% you're going to stick to each stage because you understand the psychology of what you're trying to draw out of the Prospect and help them and you understand but I have to be flexible enough to be able to

change the next question based on the answers my prospects are giving me and when I include their answers in my questions they you know they start to trust me a lot more that I understand their unique situation and I always say prospects always buy from the salesperson or company who they feel they trust can get them the best result not just because they like you that's like a secondary thing you love Grandma but you're not necessarily buying from Grandma if a complete stranger you feel that sales of sell the same thing can get you a

better result you're buying from The Stranger it's so true it's so true I love it I and I think your brand I look I like it for your brand it's like you're holding a pen I'm not talking to Jeremy you got got the pen now I got I got another question for you because I I uh Brad Brad was talking about you a couple couple months ago and I was up at the the offices and and light speed and then I saw what he wrote on your website how did you take Bradley who's the founder

of of light speed virtual training who's who's a speaker as well and turn him from a talker to a speaker what did you do I have to know so so Brad Brad's first got an incredible brand and I I and I don't even think his brand captures the power of who he is in the sense of one he's such a smart businessman right he he gets business he gets selling he understands packaging he was a he was one of the first if he I'd say he's the first person to really take the greats and put

them on video and video training and created light speed with that and when I first met Brad we did an event in New York and uh we got on a zoom and he's like so tell me tell me what you do and 12 hours later on Zoom that was our first meeting and we're talking about storytelling and the concept of what we call a TI down and tie down is really the so the model we train on is what we call frame message tie down and that that sequence is what we drill over and over

and over again what the book covers in detail each each of those has a chapter and then we go into application of each one of those and so storytelling is a great framing device because we can you know like one of my favorite you know if I want to if I want to preempt the price subjection I will inter I will sprinkle in this story all the time May and I'll just give it to you right now have you ever heard of Alan Shepard uh his name sounds familiar he was the first American to enter

space was an astronaut okay maybe I maybe I haven't heard unless I've been you know I used to watch Jeopardy as a kid maybe it's coming back it might have been on there right so it's May 15th 1961 and imagine him sitting on top of this massive rocket called the the uh the Redstone Rocket going on the freedom seven Mission and so as the first American which means he's sitting on a hunk of this big hunk of metal hunk of metal full of Rocket Fuel with Engineers going we think it's going to work this time

and so a reporter gets to go up to him and say Mr Shephard you're about to be launched off into space like the world is watching we want to know what's going through your mind and his answer will forever go down in history when he says the fact that every part of this rocket was built by the lowest bidder and and so such a beautiful story of History to be able to remind people of two points in the transaction one is the moment of purchase I call it a moment because it's a fleeting moment and

in that moment to purchase we're thinking about interest rates we're thinking about payments we're thinking about how do we cut corners and lower costs what we forget about is the time of performance it's in the future when that product has to do everything that we need it to do and I guarantee you that he was not thinking did we buy the cheapest material were we on budget he was saying you better have bought the best for me because I need to get back he's thinking about the result rather than price or cost yeah and in

the moment of performance right and because if you in that moment of performance we go and what we'll do is the close we'll say you know you know Mr Prospect right now you're in that moment of purchase just like Mr Shepard you know when they when the whole team was building it right and before that but my job is to get us thinking of time of performance and is this product service whatever we're selling going to do what you need it to do and from what you told me these things were really important to you

and now here's the best part to do those for working with my team if I wanted to be that person to be the lowest I'd have to hire different people and they'd be a lot less expensive than the ones that I have right now but I think it's a lot easier to explain my price one time than to have to apologize in that moment of performance that time of performance to you forever and so there's I mean you said it right it's it's all about reframing the prospect's way of thinking so first of all like

from the very first questions I would ask my whole job is I have to get them to let their guard down a B I have to immediately get them into results based things away from Price or cost based thinking I don't want to be commoditized right let's say a prospect comes back and says well can you give us a cheaper price I might then say well is is price the most important thing to you or actually getting XYZ result and see now I'm like trying to like like a comparative frame like it's either going to

be price or the end result so they have to pick the end result but even for my very first questions like if I'm a marketing agency and let's say have an inbound lead right and they're they want to grow their business and and get get a higher quality lead the first questions I'm asking okay so it looks like you booked on the calendar about looking at getting you know possible help and and getting a higher quality lead to scale the company right well if I'm a marketing agency I'm not selling leads or branding I'm selling

them the results of what the leads and branding does for them which is to scale the company so immediately I'm getting him into that result-based thinking away from Price or cost based thinking I'm always doing that you know what I mean love that and so that the framing is what a lot of people are good at storytelling like and Brad had so many stories I mean he was storytelling storytelling and so I said you have to add What's called the tie down to the end of that which is answers the question of what this means

to you and I'll give you an example so one example that we use is uh the story of Janice and Janice was a an executive that I worked with and she worked for a $200 billion privately held company you can imagine the largest privately held company in the world and they were coming to have be uh become president of one of the business units they had about 84 business units at the time and the interview is about 9 hours I said Renee can you help her I said absolutely now Janice is an MBA PhD overall

badass carries herself beautifully I mean she is incredible executive so we set her up in a mock panel and I put three people in front of her put her in a chair i s off to the side to watch facial expression timing sequencing all the things that you and I would look for and first question we asked her was tell us something you're proud of and she looked at us or she looked and hitched her coat and she answered like most Executives were taught which were short concise and to the point and she said I

got straight A my last year in school one of my proudest moments so now well they looked at me what' you think I said well there was no frame so now when no frame is provided my brain biologically and neurologically has to create one to understand what was going on so I started framing her I said oh so you're straight is your last year in school so you're a procrastinator are you going to procrastinate for us as well she looks at me like I'm crazy I said oh I'm sorry did Mommy and Daddy pay for

school so you didn't have to work that hard yeah you you you're without framing it you can you can interpret it any way you want to your brain's gonna everybody in the room is going to interpret it different way absolutely so now she's got a tear in her eye and I said Janice I didn't mean those things I go but you didn't frame it so I have no idea I do know it was important to you wasn't it and she sodded her head I said why and watch what happens when the frame comes in and

she takes her a minute and a half to compose herself and she looks at me and she says when you've been told you're stupid your entire life by adults you tend to believe them and something happened my last year in school where I said either I'm going to believe them forever or I'm going to do something about it and I did something about it it's so true no it's totally different yeah it's framing it's even you know like I mean you know as a speaker you can't just go up there and and just like talk

about your story because then you're more focused on you than them but you still kind of got to take them down your hero's journey so they can hero's journey so they can relate to you right they don't look like Oh Renee was born with these skills right so just the way to frame it you know the way I frame it is like you know I'll tell you I'm going to tell you a little bit about my story because my background relates to what is necessary if you want to take your sales ability to a level

most people don't believe they can never dream about now I framed why I'm telling the story absolutely and you claim and own that frame so now the tie down is where the magic happens and so here the frame is that I was told I was stupid and then so people are what that creates the frame creates emotion and it creates that peace and I'll ask people have I influenced them they're like yeah I'm like you haven't influenced them yet you have moved them emotionally which is the precursor to influence the influence happens at the tie

down and so I'll give you all three so if I I'll break them up one more time tell us something you're proud of start with with I'll start with the the message in the here and now got straight as my last year in school your audience has to create the frames we don't know it's a crapshoot hopefully maybe they agree with you maybe they don't if I start with a frame and I say well I was told I was stupid and I tell the whole thing people are going to left with wow that was powerful

who's next Who's Next the interview and so no actions taken and so we have to have a clear IO which would be an influence objective like a commitment objective in sales right but an influence objective and the influence objective in an interviews to get the job so I have to add that tie down at the end and here's all three when they come together tell us something you're proud of start with frame well unfortunately growing up I was surrounded by a lot of adults that told me I wasn't real smart and when adults speak to

you that way you tend to act that way and I didn't do real well in school but something happened my last year in school where I looked myself in the mirror and I said either I'm going to believe them forever or I'm going to do something about it so I went out and got the help that I needed put my nose to the grindstone and I'm I'm proud to tell you message I got straight A my last year in school now it close it tied down now Jeremy I'm assuming if I get do get a

chance to work with you and your team there's going to be times where our backs should be against the wall we're going to be facing some pretty big pressures maybe seemingly insurmountable challenges but I promise you this if I get a chance to be on your team I will be out there next to you if not in front overcoming those challenges in the same way I overcame them in my own personal life frame except this time for you and for your team yeah you're tying it down to to you know make sense in the prospect's

mind why you just said what you said there it has to loop back around because at the end of what I do after I tell go through the hero's journey like I started here and then went here then I'm like now why did I tell you my story because no none of you in here care about my story you only care about whose story your story right we're humans right behavior science 101 the reason why I told you that is you know I'm not like a you know an influencer that has millions of you know

tens of millions of followers and in fact I'm just like you you know and I touch somebody on the site because I want to connect emotionally with the audience right and then I then I go over like you know I I wasn't born out of my mother's womb with Advanced questions goes raise your hand if you're born out your mother's wom Advanced questions goes oh nobody I wasn't born with Advanced ton out I wasn't born with Advanced objection prevenge handling raise your hand so what does that mean to you if a kid who grew up

in the middle of Missouri you know can learn those skills then you know what does that mean for you so it's it's all the tie down so good man love that it's so good and you hit and you hit the right phrase where you said what that means to you is and the reason I share that with you is yeah dude hey man I'm you know me dude I'm I'm always trying to learn from you guys up there on stage I just I watch people just their whole stage thing and I'm like oh I wonder

wonder why I put his hand on his chest there that makes sense he was trying to connect you know I'm like I'm probably like yeah geek that's what makes that's what makes you such a good trainer man you be a good student that's that's rare these days by the way so I I really commend you on that you and I both man we're I'm like a sponge you know trying to so up knowledge okay so where can where can our where can our community which is salese business owners entrepreneurs sales leaders where can they learn

more about what you do so Instagram is learn with Renee l e a RN Rene is 1e um and we do a new video a day it's all educational microlearning content um and so you can follow a lot of these principles on obviously the book is amplify your influence websites meet Renee me not me a that's a whole another business I'm assuming but meet rene.com and uh those would be the best places and and uh soon something I yeah so yes perfect everybody go buy his book right now look if you if you want to

learn more about sales persuasion influence you really want to study body language tonality all these frames that we just barely started mentioning here so just go to amplify book.com right there uh buy the book look if you can't if you don't have the funding for the 20 some dollars let me and Renee know we'll give you like a GoFundMe page or something so you can sell more we're just joking they know I'm sarcastic but go get that book look if you want to sell more you you got to learn more right you know Renee I'll

end on this salespeople the number one question ask me how do how do I gain more confidence in sales well I'm like easy you want to gain more confidence in sales you got to gain more skill level because your confidence level will always go down to where your current skill level is right how can you have a high confidence level in anything with a low skill level makes no sense I love that can I add something to that on that just to to the other piece too is because you're absolutely right the skill set the

skill level is number one but the other side to that too is you have to let go of confidence being a precursor because you're never confident at first confidence is a reward given to you for showing the courage to try it anyways even without it and you go out and you try this new clothes you go out and you do some new scripting and you go out there and you ask for the deal you do the body language all the stuff that Jeremy training you on and you do it and life comes along afterwards and

goes nice job here's an ounce of confidence and then you go do it again you get another ounce of it and by the time you have all this confidence built up you don't need it anymore because you've been doing the work you've been doing the stuff and the results are there and then magically people like wow you're so lucky you worked for it like you said they're not born we are made how does a neurosurgeon gain confidence in brain surgery because they freaking learn how to do it before they even did their first brain surgery

that's how it's it's like it's like get how does an engineer be confident in the bridge he buils or she builts because they learned how to do it they learned how to build the bridge you know all right this was awesome uh definitely want you to be back on here let's hook you kind of hook up five six months from now next time you're in Phoenix area let us know we'll bring you in we'll have like a live interview this is an amazing conversation all right all right everybody stay out of trouble go get that

book we'll see you soon