(EXCLUSIVE) Boris Johnson: "They Were Looking at Engineering the Virus & The Government Bribed Me!"

do you really think I was deliberately partti and breaking the rules but it's all about leading by example ISM sorry but to say it was a party is a complete travesty seeing that photo when one of my friends can go to their grandmother's funeral is the most enraging thing I think all Gatherings should have been Bann at number 10 because I think what do you mean Gatherings Gatherings with alcohol and music and Cake you should never have allowed that to happen I apologize for that Johnson the former prime minister of the UK whose Reign included

brexit Co and the Ukraine war he's one of the world's most famous politicians on this point of brexit how did David Cameron react when you said you're going to vote leave he said if you come out and support leave I will you up forever but if you support remain you can have a top five job in the cabinet but is that not a bit corrupt and is that how the jobs are dished out in the government at the moment look I'm sad to say that this probably been the way politics has been since the dawn

of time and then this letter you wrote about the decision to leave or stay within the EU which was unpublished you seemed torn so do do you regret brexit well the next big thing was the pandemic there was a lot of stuff we we didn't know I I think almost certainly was a lab accident they they were looking at engineering viruses and ways that they could manipulate it sadly something went wrong when you talk about lockdowns you refer to them as Bonkers which is strange hearing it from the guy that put the rules in place

well did the benefits of lockdown outweigh the very very severe Damage Done to kids what do you think the answer to that question is honestly I think I just wanted to ask a few more things Trump or camalo who's the best for international relations how many kids do you have Charlotte Owen you're not related to you and then you have quite a distinct Persona people describe you as being a buffoon when I first saw you I thought you were a parody from Bose selector is it calculated well to get people's interest in politics you got

a sugar the pill but also your mother said you had certain mechanisms to cope with pain because your mother is sent to a psychiatric facility when you were 10 I read There was physical violence in the house and then at 14 your parents get divorced yes we were in Somerset my father told us and I was look I was cross and said you know so so why did you have us then you know [Music] um this has always blown my mind a little bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed

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continue to do what we do thank you so [Music] much Boris Ste what do I need to understand about your earliest years to understand the man that you are today I think the key thing is my wonderful happy very kind of paginating childhood um in the company of my siblings the key fact was that after a 18 months of existence my sister Rachel was born and ever after it was just a constant struggle to keep the the pretense of Primacy with my with my siblings but I think it's it is probably true to say that

healthy incessant sibling interaction competition whatever you want to call it rivalry um definitely played a part in my formation and we used to make fun of it too we used to think it was rather pathetic we all knew that there was a culture of trying to win so we used to say oh little baby wants to win and so we were kind of we competed but we also deprecated the the competition at that age um say before the age of 10 how does that manifest in terms of a feeling because you can in hindsight say

okay I was competitive but how did it feel you know CU you it felt like fun but but this idea that Rachel came along and then you were vying for attention and competition with her how did how does that feel when you're under the age of 10 because your your your father at least was very very busy as a man so I'm presuming he wasn't necessarily so present um I was reading you moved house 32 times in 14 years yeah but that okay I mean he was um but really I think I you know I

speak for all of my siblings now when I say that you really couldn't have had a more loving caring you know they they both of them I mean you they're both very busy both my mother and father mother was painter um my father yeah writer did a huge number of things but they did invest a lot of time in US I mean really a lot it sounded like you had a rough sort of first 10 years of life because you also had glue ear which is uh which made you deaf a little yes well I

don't know I think we need to look very care the I I definitely had adenoids and I had tonsilitis and I spent a lot of time in s Barts and had my adenoids out my T and everything like that and I did have glue here but it but my my my deafness there's no trace of it now particularly and I kind of wonder whether it was in fact a a a cunning means to avoid my mother's questions and I I think look I mean I don't know it may be that I wasn't as deaf as

as all that you know what I mean would you ever do that if your mother was asking you something you didn't actually want to engage and I don't think I'm that coming you what I mean not at8 years old your mother Charlotte um she had four children you were the oldest of those four um she seems to be a really important character in your life In fact when I opened up the first couple of pages of the book you you dedicate the book in memory of of Charlotte your mother I do she was an artist

she had many paint paintings of of of her children but also other things I saw some of those paintings I did some research on those paintings um but one of the sort of really pivotal moments in her OT bringing is that she suffered from obsessive compulsive disorder she did yeah you're what 10 years old when your mother is an uh put as an impatient in a Psy psychiatric hospital and you're apart for eight months something like that yes what what impact does that have on you in terms of shaping shaping the Boris that we know

today if any I mean I remember it all very very well and it's hard to say exactly what impact it it had on me but I think what certainly happened was that all four of us all four of the children that um that my mother had we definitely kind of coagulated as a as a group because it was a tough time there were well there were aspects of that were were tough because you know she she wasn't always there and so I think it did breed a certain kind of group solidarity and she always kind

of blamed herself for not being there for the8 months whatever period it was and I I remember feeling very strongly that that was unfair and on and that she actually you know did an amazing job and you know you couldn't you couldn't have asked for more did you notice her anything unusual about her behavior before she was yes so the OCD thing is absolutely right she did have that and you know it was it was very difficult and I'm sure people who are watching this know exactly what it is but she lots of different patterns

of behavior one of the one of them was was about ESS so so so the so the she she wash her hands and then um she she would realize in order to turn the tap off she'd have to touch the the the foret the spiger and and and she didn't want to do that because that would make her hands dirty again she thought but you know this is a very well-known symptom and she and she totally got over it I she totally got over it she got through it why was she sent to a psychiatric

facility um well I guess because she's I think that's a JT good question I don't know really know the answer I think I think she probably said that she thought she could benefit from therapy and that's what she and my father decided to was a best way forward but I I I honestly don't know the answer to that and who looked after you while she was in that facility at 10 years old well my father was there and we had uh a wonderful series of opair girls and nannies and and so on and so forth

and at 14 years old they they were all great too but you know I don't I don't you know I don't want to give the impression which would not be fair that my mother kind of um was absent for long periods or wasn't a a presence in our lives because she really was it was more her words I saw her doing an interview where she was talking about um her belief that you had certain mechanisms to cope with the pain of her going to the facility for eight months but then also the divorce when you

were 14 I thought those ages that sort of puberty age where you're figuring yourself out to get such a jolt of bad news is yeah I think that's I mean classically yes and look I'm not going to I think you're on to it you you know there's there's there was an element of of self-defense that then that you know many kids in in my our position then develop um but I do insist that they both remained remarkable parents we know it wasn't like we were suddenly cut a drift but by either of them on the

contrary self-defense well yeah I don't know I mean I'm quoting her on on me by the way so I'm quoting I'm quoting you qu quoting her um you there so you yeah but I mean you know I don't it didn't it didn't occur to me at the time yeah I don't think it can for a 14-year-old but in hindsight as an as a man you go okay that was I create a p know but I mean but maybe I I've got nothing else to compare it to right um you know you're growing up anyway you're

becoming more self-reliant you got to do things to yourself um so I think so go back to where it was with my my brothers and sisters I think certainly you know it was another thing that drove us all together why self-defense and how did that self-defense manifest in terms of behavior I just I'd be the worst type of um what let me think well how did I how did I how how did my self-defense manifest I suppose I became yes unquestionably it was painful so how did I protect myself against that well one obvious thing

to do which I suppose we all do and I think I found the best therapy for every type of pain emotional pain is to try to Lose Yourself in your work emotional pain is is about a lot about it's about self-esteem so so like with when when when parents split up um you know the shock is well you you can't love us that much but if you're doing this right that's the that's the what it's all about which is not true of course but that's what the children that's what children feel they feel it's their

failure there's something wrong with them and that's not true but that's how kids feel I suppose to protect myself against that like I had a natural Avenue for to build up my self-esteem and that was academic work um that kind of thing but again you know another I suppose another type of of competition and it I'm it is a good therapy work is a work is a is a great reliever or distraction well depends on your sort of theory of psychology but um I think it both both why did they divorce do you know I

think formerly speaking what had happened was that um you know my mother has simply decided she wanted to make another life and and she you know she she found someone wonderful and and all all the rest of it um but I think that my father um and and mother the weird thing about their divorce was that they both continued to be very strongly affectionate towards each other and you know I'm again I'm not trying to minimize the psychological importance of any of this stuff for us as as kids but that was immensely fortifying because it

was so obvious that it wasn't like they were at War I mean you know they had a big bus stops but it was we felt that there was a real residue of of love and affection between them even if even if it was I mean I think the way the way we explained it to ourselves was that there was still a residue of love and affection but that it was just practically impossible for them to to continue and so that was that was how we rationalized it and um they both found other people and and

and were very happy you you say Bust ups that from everything that I've read There was physical violence in the household when you were younger yeah well this is this is something that um has been alleged by uh sadly by one of my biographers um so sort of pomping to say one of my biographers um some guy wrote a book um and put that stuff in you know what I can tell you is I have no direct knowledge of of what he said um I don't want to get into it because I don't want to

be disrespectful to my mother's memory and I I certainly don't want to say anything that would cause pain or embarrassment to my father so but I can what I can say is I had as a child no direct knowledge of it myself what did um their relationship teach you that marriage and love was they they they so they met at University um they clearly loved each other and I think if you ask my siblings they'll they'll they'll tell you that so that you know it was upsetting when when they split up because do you remember

the day they told you they yeah yeah I do I do I do I do it was it was uh we were we were in we were in Somerset and my father said that we all had to go and and up by the the the gate towards the engine shed so he went and stood by the gate towards the engine shed and and we were told this you know sad news what did he say I don't remember exactly I don't remember exactly but I was look I was cross and and and said you know so

so why did you have us then because I thought well you know um as you know I think it is upsetting and kids do take you know kids take it upon themselves right and so they do they do think that there must be some fault or mistake in that in themselves and that isn't that isn't true I mean you know you it's very important for kids not to blame themselves for for these things and I think that it's you know back to the point I was making earlier on with you um I think you know

you do need to feed the the your self-esteem and you need to get yourself back up again and so work was my it was my way of doing it I I could see the um the emotion in your face when you talk about that moment as if you were teleported back to that moment for a second yeah yeah I mean it may look I the the actual the truth is I'm I'm now told in retrospect that that is what I said I don't personally remember it you remember how it feels yeah but look I mean

yes but I really wouldn't want to over egg it because my parents were incred kind to each other after that you know when you do this and you throw the the coal in the air I was just stoking the fness of my of my self-esteem yeah yeah you um you have quite a distinct Persona you're I mean much of where you sort of first came to public knowledge was on the TV show have I got news for you yeah I know I think the BBC very they live in permanent state of horror about what they

did that because you know I think that's one of the reasons that that they I think they they have a terrible sense of corporate guilt that they Unleashed this thing is is there a link between your persona comedic kind of you know people often describe you as being a bit of a buffoon I actually thought you were a this is just being honest because I feel like it's important to be honest to someone if you've said it behind their back but I when I first saw you on the screen I was a very young man

I must have been I don't know 14 and I thought you were a parody from Bo selector like I thought I thought you were I thought it was a parody but then I came to learn you know when you did the London May thing ET that you were a politician and who you were and where you'd come from but the out the out external person is very atypical of a politician right and your general comedic sense that shows up in the book a lot um you were very comedic on have I got news how I

have I got news for you um is that at all linked when when did that behavior show up because there was two points of reference that I was mulling one is things your sister said about where you sort of learned that comedy was a useful device um and the second one is something Jimmy Carr actually said to me he said to me that um he goes if you ever meet anyone comedic or a comedian don't ask them if they're depressed ask them which one of their parents they were trying to cheer up or win favor

from and I I wondered if all yeah and I think I don't know I I think that um one of the things I've tried to do in politics is to get people interested and one of the things I'm trying to do and Unleashed which is unquestionably a a mixture there's a lot of serious argument in it but also I'm trying to tell the story in as readable a way as possible and you have to you have to use you got to Sugar the pill you've got to so it's like it's like a it's like a

packet of uh of digestive biscuits MH um if you've got to have so each of the chapters uh has a uh some solid you know wheat germ pabulum but it's covered with some a little layer of chocolate did you so say you you go down you go down the packet compulsively and each of those 60 chapters I think there are 60 chapters in that book is designed to give you a bit of both so are you the pill that was sugared you sugared yourself no well I it's well I know there are it's the fact

of the great things that I think that we did we know we took back control of our of our country we we had a we we went for a type of Independence that people thought was impossible no I'm spefic complicated arguments about um Middle East about as a as a as a guide to the last 15 years in in politics I think it's it's pretty useful but I mean I worked in marketing for about 15 years so I find it quite fascinating that right now in the world it seems that there's a certain type of

atypical personality that's breaking through and being resident is your persona a carefully constructed marketing strategy or is because someone someone that knows you referred to as a bit of a loner in private and a quite quiet person yeah no no I I live I so I'm very I have a wonderful life um I I spend my time I I do a lot of painting um I I do a lot of reading and writing um I mck around mck around with my kids it doesn't take much to you know my cup to run over with with

with happiness but you know all this stuff like yeah but I know but that's I've got I've always had a lot of energy but I've always had a lot you understand that that's part of your persona right well am I supposed to do about that but I'm trying to understand is it calculated is it something that you've you've thought about and you understand is effective because they describe you as being one of the best sort of election winners of our of our time I think what people will I don't know I mean what people will

also say is that um I haven't really changed I mean you know going back to your earlier earlier line of question I can see where you're going with this you're saying as part of the strategy for defense do we adopt comedic Persona or or or whatever was um I don't think that was I think it was just with my brothers and sisters in our family there was a kind of horror of of you know being dull or not saying anything you know we we had to you know we all had to amuse each each other

why that was really really polite I you know because it was more fun your brothers and sisters are less amusing than you are I wouldn't say that that's a very controversial thing to say you would say that I would no I would not say that you would say that who I would say that yeah you think Leo have you met my brother Leo no I've not met well then you got to get Leo on this show but your sister my brother Joe yes you met my brother Jo no look honestly there's a serious uh risk

of of uh we had a wonderful childhood because and they wouldn't deny this because we all you know we had a lot of fun trying to interest and amuse each other and and and and to your point probably our parents as well CU your sister that's not to say that we were we were you know we didn't we didn't do kind of shards and and Christmas masks and and plays and and God knows what jery Corbin said Boris is a calculated intelligent who lives in a Persona which is the opposite is that TR at all

um no I I mean I I think that I I wish you were true in some ways but I don't I because most of your most you videos on YouTube are you tackling a small child we thing rugby and by the way by the way he he he would I reckon he could be much older than he looked you know the guy in Japan the kid you tackled the kid in Japan the one I accidentally knocked over in Japan they're all comedy videos yeah he he anyway Eon it's pretty crazy she went to Eaton at

13 years old it's the crazy thing for me is that approximately 20 of the 57 individuals who have served as prime minister went to Eon which is roughly 35% of the UK prime ministers were educated at Eaton roughly yeah this for me when I read that I go something's broken here because for one school to contribute so many of the most powerful people in in the land feels like a little bit of like someone's got their hands on the scale or there's some kind of that's why you need to read level read the book because

the book contains this is the whole theme of the book right not the whole theme of the book it's one of the major themes of the book it's about leveling up yeah and if if you remember what I say about I don't know whether you got through that bit but I so I went there on a scholarship and it was fantastic I was very lucky I was I was paid for by the by Henry V 6 oh the legacy of Henry V 6 and I remember feeling this incredible sense of Amazement that there were kids

from some of the most famous illustrious families in in Britain uh who plainly didn't have you know much um intellectual interest academic you know Spark in them and and kidss who'd come from backgrounds all over the country who were incredible and I and my my insight at school very very very young was that this there's there's a fundamental problem which is that there is ambition and energy and genius and talent probably completely evenly distributed throughout the UK population and opportunity is not yeah I and that is the problem and that is the basic problem with

our country and this country has more potential arguably than any other major European economy because it's so imbalanced and if you look at the the propon schools like mine p in London in the Southeast in the UK economy it's actually unlike France Germany Italy Holland it's also totally unlike the United States and so I I decided very early on that the that there was massive massive wasted potential and so one of the so when I became mayor of London one of my biggest projects was really the biggest thing we did was really all about trying

to lift the the the burrow that people said were were locked in a permanent cycle of disadvantage and and you know you know what I mean the inner the inner donut of London hne where you know all that and and it was total rubbish total rubbish and you you can change people's aspirations but you can then also change uh the culture of of achievement and and I saw it happen in London and I was only mayor for eight years but in that period you really did see the city change in in you know quite a

significant way and and I believe very very strongly that that is fundamentally what needs to happen in the whole of the UK and and I think that this is the job of politic I don't care whether they're labor or conservative or whoever I think that that is that is what we need to to be doing and I think there are very simple ingredients that polit there's not there's limits to what politicians can do but there are some simple things that politicians need to be doing to to make that happen has the conservative government done well

enough at leveling up the the whole of the UK over the last decade uh obviously not because it's not happening f it is I mean it is happening leveling up is happening but if you look at the but it's nothing like fast enough yeah and you know so you know AB I was proud of doing things like um rolling out gigabit Broadband from you know 7 to 70% 69 70% of of households in in 3 years which is not not bad going I was proud of all the infrastructure stuff we were we were doing I

think it's a mistake to to stop that infrastructure is crucial [Music] for leveling up transport infrastructure is a great is a great equalizer of opportunity so things like hs2 Northern Powerhouse rail we should be going on with those in in my view and um you know whatever my my defects as a politician I think one thing I was good at was getting a lot of stuff done fast and get and and driving and driving project projects but the problem is Eaton Eaton was to back to your question that youthful experience was I I was also

at Primary School in in London and I really really decided that this was because I think our country has this problem worse than most other most comparable countries but if you think how if you think of how strong the UK economy already is then imagine what we could achieve if we leveled up right do you know this this stat around Eon that 20 out of the 57 individuals who've served as prime minister came from there isn't that just the clearest example of the fact that it is yeah the people that are coming into politics but

also generally the people that are getting to the top in society are starting with a unfair advantage to some degree I well I think what it shows is that I mean you probably point to cultures like France or wherever where you know the a lot of the the country is run by the um the the people from the the the Great Schools um but yeah I mean fundamentally yes that's I think that the so so the great the great choice for for anybody who's interested in public policy is well okay this is a this is

clearly clearly a problem uh it's clearly wrong uh it's clearly imbalanced what do you do uh do you set out to launch a kind of cultural assault um Paul pot Style on the successful institutions or do you say actually what we're going to do is try to spread opportunity so it's more like America and and if you look at America you the growth rates are spectacularly outperformed European growth rates there's a different sense people have a different sense of what they can do and we need to have a we need to have a a culture

in the UK where people don't feel prisoners of their geography of their background that certainly is the case isn't it at the moment in the UK too much the case I mean it's less it's less than it was I went undercover I went undercover in a school in Liverpool that was very poorly ranked on the offed rankings and I remember being in that school and just thinking how on Earth are these kids going to have a chance well they're not going to have a chance if their teachers tell them that they're never going to get

into a Russell group University and they and they well what I observed when I was there was I observed one teacher running from one classroom to the next classroom this was under Ator government trying to teach two classes at the same time and I remember sitting down with her cuz I cuz I got like kicked out of school then I was unexposed from school so I had a bit of my own prejudices about school I thought teachers were the problem and what I came to learn from speaking to the Headmaster of the school was that

this is effectively run like a business and the amount of students that choose that school every year determines how much money the school is given by the the conservative government and the the amount of the parents choose schools based on the league table and the league table is determined by grades so really if you think about the the structure here um the reason why they're driving kids like me to do subjects which I absolutely hated when I was really interested in business was because if they don't get me to get 12 AED to sees or

whatever the nonsense is in certain subjects less they they rank poorly in the league table less parents choose the school they get less money from the government and it's this down with spiral and because the school was so so people are people are are naturally skewed to doing subjects that perhaps no interest of them they had me pushing some plastic baby around the school in Health and Social care when I was running businesses in the school and I was I was spending so much time in my in exclusion unit because I was falling asleep in

classrooms turns out I had ADHD I wasn't interested in these things but I was obs in these things the system is that is designed to just to just sort of spread bet you across multiple subjects and you're a failure if you're not good at that but going back to the sort of the E the the um e economics of the school I watched this teacher run from one classroom to the other teaching two classrooms at the same time and she told me that because less students had chosen that school this year she was having to

pay for the footballs and the the pencils in her classroom this school I I observed the quality of Education with all due respect they did the best with with what they had but oh my God it doesn't compare doesn't compare to a lot of the other schools that I've observed and I thought God these children in this school are starting out life with a significant disadvantage and much of that is just down to the funding situation they don't have the teachers the teachers are dropping like flies because they're getting sick because they're understaffed and I

just thought that that's such a if we think about you know what's the furthest Upstream thing we can do to give people a fair Shake in life so that they can become a prime minister or a CEO or whatever they want to be it starts there it starts with education and just giving everyone the same sort of quality of opportunity but right now and especially under the the sort of last 10 15 years of government Cas I think I probably ought to to to try and resist some of that because um yeah I mean I

think teaching is incred I tried to be a teacher myself it's it's it's unbelievably difficult and and demanding job and I hugely admire teachers um when I came in in 2019 we put a lot of money into into the education budgets and um made sure teachers were going to be paid new new teachers are starting Sal at least 30,000 pounds and uh put a lot of money into into further education um and actually if you look at that period of con of the conservative Administration I think most fairm minded people say actually look UK went

up the pza rankings uh for literacy and numeracy most people actually would say that education was one of the things where things did get better and uh I think the driving out of the whole Academy program I mean not remotely denying what you say about um the teacher you you know the teachers you saw being being totally run run ragged um and you know the they need the maximum possible support but if you look at the data schools did get appreciably better in this country during that period now what I wanted to do was really

turbocharge that and give not just school children but also kids who'd left school at at 16 the types of skills that they were going to need to compete and to make sure that business felt that they had in the schools in the Fe colleges in wherever it was they had the talent that they needed to invest in that area because that's ultimately what it's all about it's about having the um the confidence that the the state is doing enough to deliver private sector investment that is that is ultimately what will transform the the neighborhood and

and you get instead of getting the vicious circle of of decline that you talked about you'll get a you'll get a uh a positive feedback Loot and uh parents want to move there they want to send their kids to the to to the school the school get a good good reputation and and so things will things will turn around as they did in London look at London schools um you know I can't I can't comment on the school you mentioned in Liverpool but London schools really really changed a lot I think with even with the

leveling up thing one of the easiest ways to level up without building the train line would just be to improve the quality of Education in these and I think if you look at what the conservatives did they really focused on that and they focused on the curriculum they focused on standards they focused on quality and I think that was very important because you know I mean it's Al it's very very important to to to fund schools properly um but but you know you you shouldn't underestimate what what a great teacher can achieve and the difference

that they can make and you know if if you emphasize quality and you emphasize attainment and you and you focus on that that's why I'm I know I think it's I'm slightly worried about what's happening now with with ofstead I mean I I I can understand why people don't like one word ofstead gradings but parents need to know whether a school is gonna deliver you went to Oxford University then you had a job as a Management Consultant which lasted only a week I hear yeah I was wasn't really cut out for Management Consultant you know

you then become a journalist um you become a journalist for the next couple of years you then appear on have I got news for you is it is it now is it now feeded from the memory it's slightly it's slightly fading it's still a great show but it's still slightly fading um you were then editor he must tell in his lot that it's F and and uh you an empty at the house of comms um then eventually you for London mayor were you did you expect to win the London mayor ship I well you see

this is the way you I hadn't got the faintest idea I mean seemed the thing was that I'd actually been quite an admirer of Ken Livingston in in the old days and I thought that he had some some bold and original ideas for London I I thought he was good on the environment he was good on air quality he was good on on the I thought there was some some some good things that he that he did um but it was clear that after 8 years you know you start to get a bit ragged did

you did you think you would win I suppose I must have done I suppose I must have thought it was a good chance it was it was it was a pretty exhausting campaign but if you ask me if I thought I would win something I can tell you in hset whether I thought I'd win I did soccer Aid last year this year and I can tell you if I thought I was going to win did you think you were going to win when you ran I thought there was a goodish chance but it wasn't obvious

I mean I I think the bookies didn't really had me as the as the favorite uh for for a long time I think it then changed I can't remember exactly but um you know you make your own L right I mean I had to I had to go in there and make the arguments I me I think one of the things that Ken didn't pay enough attention to was crime and I thought the was a real issue that needed to be addressed and that was the the numbers of teenage kids being murdered and we really

really went at that hard and again it was one of those things where when I together with a lot of other people kit Mouse Deputy Mayor Steven greenhalge uh Paul Stevenson the commissioner Bernard Hogan how who who followed him we really really tried to fix knife crime and gang crime I used to literally lie awake at night worrying about it because it was so on me you know every every single casualty having to talk to the parents you know the misery the misery of of their suffering we really felt it and we and it was

it was a good example of democracy because we'd pledged to fix it and if we didn't we had nowhere to go one of the things I'm proud of is we we cut the murder in London during my time by 50% in 2016 at 52 years old you become co-leader along side Michael go of the campaign to take Britain out of the EU when I when I look at your Premiership as prime minister of the UK there's three really significant moments isn't there that typically don't fall all in one person's role as a prime minister you

had the brexit issues you had Co and you had the Ukraine war y um before I before I talk about those particular issues in hindsight now how do you feel about the fact that you had to contend with three generational crises and issues but you know that's the job of being prime minister but most Prime Ministers don't get sure but but you know pandemic leaving the EU some Prim ministers have had Wars some Prim ministers have had uh terrible crisis uh Sterling crisis terrible you wish you got a different hand no I I I think

actually do you think you'd still be in politics now and as prime minister if you if you got a different hand no I think there are I think honestly I think there were other reasons for for for that I mean I'm so I'm I'm proud of of the things that we did with with the country I think it was very you know people now say um oh brexit War actually you know one of the points I make in in Unleashed is that if you look at it the model of national Independence that we got was

crucial so full freedom to do what we wanted in legislation and regulation that was actually crucial when it came to that pandemic because we were able to vaccinate faster than any other European country a much faster I mean did you think you were going to win the brexit vote um I honestly when I was outside London yes when I was inside London no so whenever I traveled around the country I thought my God people are going to vote then when I got back into the Metropolis um it felt very different so if you had to

put your house on it remain or leave in terms of the probability of the outcome what you your predicted outcome which one would you have voted on well I the polls were were basically more for remain than for leave um but I sort of thought that our voters were more motivated so I hoped that they would come out and I hoped that they would that was and but he did but on a scale had foreseen I mean because we had 17.4 million people voted Lee which was the biggest number voted for any proposition in history

and um but you know there were plenty of times when I you know you could be in a in I was a St Andrews University in Scotland for my daughter's graduation day and you really wouldn't have thought that we were going to leave talking to those people there so you know it depended do you know what's interesting when I was reading your book but also when I was reading some of your previous writings you seemed really conflicted on which way to go leave or remain right up until you wrote your sort of first announcement piece

that you were supporting leave you seemed to be really really conflicted the the reasons for for for not leaving were it seemed to me to be more to do with Britain's duty to the rest of Europe or need to be good partners uh our need not to be negative uh to be friendly I that that those were the things that worried me people the positive reasons for leaving people point at this letter which was unpublished you know the letter I'm referring to the unpublished letter you wrote about the decision to leave or stay within the

EU is this no you mean the the article the unpublished article yeah yeah yeah yeah where you said here some of the the phrases from that piece think of Britain think of the rest of the EU think of of the future think of the desire of our children and our grandchildren to live and work in other European countries to sell things there to make friends perhaps to find Partners there I like the sound of freedom I like the sound of restoring democracy but what are the downsides and here we must be honest there is the

worry about Scotland about the possibility that the English only Lee vote could lead to the breakup of the Union there is the Putin Factor we don't want to do anything to encourage more shirtless swaggering from the Russian leader not the Middle East not anywhere and then there is the whole geostrategic anxiety Britain is a great nation a global Force for good it is surely a boon for for the world and for Europe that she should be intimately engaged in the EU lastly this is a market on our doorstep ready for future exploitation by British firms

the membership fee seems rather small for all that access why are we so determined to turn our back on it shouldn't our policy be like our policy on cake pro- having it and pro eating it pro Europe and pro rest of the world so when I read that but then I also I read the um the very Vivid description you gave of that night when you're trying to make your decision in your book unle and you seemed torn but the guy that went out and campaigned didn't seem torn there was a there was a real

lack of nuance in the campaign but there's such a a huge amount of nuance in both the moment you were making the decision and the Articles you wrote about that decision there are arguments both ways and and I I I say it in the in the book and it's certainly true that as I as I said just now the the case for for stay is I think one about um not seeming to be hostile not seeming to be detached but I had to decide because the being in the EU isn't like just being in a

club that where the rules don't change it's it's a project to create a United States of of Europe with a single currency with a single Parliament and and and so on and I thought that we weren't ever going to get the choice again the chance again to have National Democratic Independence and as I said in so I wrote that article you just quoted was a sort of pasti of a of a counterargument which I wrote for myself as an exercise after I'd already written the piece to to come out and I wanted to set them

side by side and and to think the that's nuanced but the campaign wasn't nuanced but if you read the the other article yeah you'll see the points that I came down in favor of MH and that was about having full marhall Independence and be able to do things your own way and the trouble with staying in the EU was it it meant that we were going to become less and less Democratic and in the end you've got to be able to as a politician you've got to be able to answer the question question who put

you in authority over me and how can I remove you from office and the problem with the EU is there's no way they can answer that question because they're not they're not democratically is there not way you can reform the relationship with the EU while being in the EU you know it's interesting I think I was thinking of a football analogy as you're talking there and right now Manchester United my team are having a bit of struggle right and um my friends in the group chat are saying do you think that we should get rid

of the manager and I'm saying when you think about making a decision like that you also have to factor in um what you do after I.E who replaces the manager so many fans would just say sack the manager but then the question becomes but then what and it was quite clear in your book that although you wanted to leave the EU you had no idea what the plan would be thereafter and in fact no but no but what we needed to do is take back control and so that's like fire the manager I'm saying but

then what it wasn't I was just wanting to win an argument with the public about their democracy and whether they should control it or not and I thought that ultimately we had to do that and and I think that if you look at so going back to the points that we were talking about earlier to growth rates in America and and Europe you couldn't say that the the EU model has been economically successful not at all um it's got chronically bad growth rates um very low Innovation by comparison with the United States something is is

not working so whatever that whatever they're doing in Brussels to provide this this great body of of Regulation it's not actually delivering results for the people of of Europe and if you clip when compared to America well so so from 2008 on to 15 take the 15 years 2008 20202 whatever to tr indry um but does that mean that the EU is doing something wrong or that the Americans are doing something right because when I think of America I think of insane Innovation a lot a bit of both a lot I mean a lot of

both so me the Americans by the way would never dream of trading away National sovereignty over anything they just don't they never they never they never in any way NATO is a bit of a act where they've formed complete hegemony in NATO I mean you know that's but they joined forces to make the some greater than the parts yeah but you know there's no the the the EU provides a a body of new and a continuously evolving body of new law which British the British Parliament can't change and so to get back to so why

I mean I'm not pretending it wasn't an e it wasn't a difficult decision it was a difficult decision uh for the you know for the reasons that you that that we've gone into but I wanted the country our country to be legislatively free again and and at the heart of the book you know you talk about the pandemic being the most difficult thing it was very very difficult but and it was very difficult to persuade the British public to I very find ways of stopping the spread of the disease but one thing we did better

than any other European country was vaccinate and one reason we were able to vaccinate so fast is because we had regulatory freedom of exactly the kind I mean it was a complete flute but it turn exactly the kind we'll talk about that that I that I had advocated we'll talk about that and so and so that for me was absolutely crucial and then we'll talk about that I just want to I need to make sure I'm clear because if I'm not clear moving forward then my audience aren't going to be clear um this idea of

like Freedom if we take the the analogy of like a of a parachute if I cut the C WS I'm free but I'm also in danger unless I have a paraglider waiting to catch me and my point here is I understand the head all the like the big emotional words that freedom Take Back Control Etc it sounds compelling to me but as I said with the football analogy what's the plan thereafter and I think I I actually don't want I don't about cutting you talking about the parachute right and cutting the cords of the of

the parachute um actually it was the other way around it was because we'd come out of the EU that we were able to equip ourselves with a parachute faster than anybody else and uh we were able to to get out of the Burning Plane uh faster and to get to ground safely faster because we' taken back control of our of our regulatory freedom and that meant that by March 2021 we' vaccinated 45% of the adult population and of the older people I think we done almost 80 over the over 80 we done almost 100% and

that was incredible if you remember we had we had we'll talk about the vaccines in early in those early day but the two things are connected those early days we had thousands you know up to a thousand people dying every day and so it was incredibly important just we were able to give elderly and vulnerable people in the UK a protection from in a on this point of brexit though in your book you say you almost sort of connect yourself from the fact that you there had to be a plan associated with the decision because

you seem almost angry that people would expect you to have the plan even though you led the campaign yeah so I mean I'm trying to make the connection between brexit and the real world and why brexit delivers value was there a plan for leaving so so but on the in 2016 and I think what you're really saying is what was our plan for the um the referendum outcome so me everybody who campaigned to to leave were we expecting to win uh were we expecting to form the next government let me quote your book this is

good for promotion for your book so you're like this never at any point in that campaign did we Boris and Michael gave discuss a future leave based government because we did not imagine that there would be would have we would have to be in charge of government the government stated policy was to implement the referendum result it was a result it was a referendum not an election we had no plans for government no plans for negotiations because it was not our job and in so far as the next few days were chaotic which they were

it is utterly infuriating that we should be blamed it was up to the government to announce the plan to withdraw it was up to the government to begin negotiations so this is I mean this is this is a huge issue because if in the context of business because when because when because why because because because I think there a fundamental misconception when you when when when a government decides to put something to the people in a referendum the government is not saying um oh you know if if it goes against our you know the any

particular position we'll we'll disappear but the government they wanted to remain in France uh for instance uh uh uh France miton had referendum on I I can't remember I think it was the master treaty um or was one of the treaties that he he lost the vote um and he didn't resign he didn't disappear plenty of European uh leaders have had referendums on E on on on the EU and and they've gone against them but they haven't vanished from the scene and so you know let put this the other way around imagine imagine that go

and I or the whole of the leave team had been specifically campaigning to in the leave vote to form the next government and to install ourselves as the rulers of the country people would have said this is not about um this you're plainly you you're talking all your arguments designed to advance your political careers you're not you're not talking about the issue of leave or remain you're talking about a plan to take over the government I and so totally I'm not politici I'm just I'm just a member of public I'm just trying to I'm trying

to explain why that that was not possible I get it but as a member of the public I think if you're leading the charge for an outcome you must have looked a couple of steps further to think about the implications and the real ity of this outcome like you must have had okay do it like this we I assume that the government would have bring would have a white paper that said that brought they they were going to bring forward the options for the country and a plan to negotiate and a plan and a plan

to would to do what they said they were going to do but the government including your friend David Cameron said this is a really bad idea he so one would one would take from that that the plan is not a good one that they've looked at all the available options post leaving and there's no good options here so if the people in charge were saying we should not leave there is no good plan shouldn't we have listened to them well no because I think they were wrong as a member of public is I see two

like two people stood at a cliff Edge and you got one guy called David one guy called Boris and David has said listen I'm taking you to the cliff Edge because it's your right to to make this decision but do not jump and this other guy called Boris is going jump I would assume that Boris knows something about how we survive once we start falling but to find out that Boris had no plan and thought David was going to pull out the parachute for me is like well David D the problem the problem was that

I I then we then had to we then found ourselves because David prime minister Cameron then disappeared from the scene immediately as I as I described in the book we then we then had a a chaotic period where we had to work out what the hell we were going to do because it was clear that we were going to somebody was going to have to take over and and lead us through it did David Cameron react badly when you told him when he thought that you might be voting to leave because you talk about in

the book he yes I did he but I mean but I describe it um in the in the book he he said he said um he said I well I said look I I was really struggling with this because I didn't see how I consistently cuz he'd offered me he said if you come out and support rain you can have a top five job in the cabinet I couldn't work out what a top five job was and then he and then he said um and then I he I said well look I was Finding very

because I've written lots and lots of Articles the pointing out the the Democratic problems of the of the EU and you know finally we had a chance to to resolve this and I was thinking of of coming out for leave and I you know didn't know how to put it to him that was the the truth and he he said this isn't about articles this is about the future of the country I said well I agreed about the future of the country but I was still thinking canot believe and he said well if you if

you if you come out believe he said I will and I you know apologize for he same he said I will I will you up forever and which I thought was quite a big big you know sort of promise to me he said he was going to you up forever forever and so I immediately um went back home after I went back home after that evening and uh and cycled back from my office in in in City Hall and talked to my my family my kids and one of my kids uh said immediately well you

know he got no choice and you'll have to come out for leave so um I mean I put that in to to I put all that in really to just to show you that um there were very good Arguments for having a quiet life do you know what's interesting in that is I when I read that part in your book The was two things that I thought the first was him offering you a top five job if you followed his opinion is that not briary and is that how the jobs are dished out in the

government at the moment if if you if you do what I say I'll give you a top like if you do what I say I'll make you health secretary or defense secretary seems like but it seems like from as a someone who's not in government it seems like a really corrupt way to dish out jobs like if you if you go with me it wasn't clear it wasn't clear you've got to be fair to Dave it wasn't clear what job he was offering but top five is what defense secretary Health secretary you know PMS were

top five jobs so there's what really four remaining it's probably you thought in the book you talk about potentially defense secretary I don't know but yes but yeah I mean look but but is that not a bit corrupt is that not like the definition of corruption because if I was it to my employ my own view about all I think it's a it's a huge mistake to do that kind of thing because there are always far more people that you know you end up you know thinking that you should be making a promise to then

there are jobs you can possibly give so the best thing in those circumstan is to say nothing I I've I've always wondered this about government and I've never understood it is how does someone become the head of a department when they have no prior experience in it like you made Matt hanock Health secretary how did how did Margaret thater become Prime Minister or secretary for Education when she had no previous previous experience how did Tony Blair become Prime Minister when no the Prime Minister thing I understand how but how did how did T become you

know a shadow Minister when he had no experience you tell me do you think this is a good system well so this is a really really important point because I think that there is a um I I I do worry that it's quite hard to persuade you know really good administrative types to go into to politics and you know you see it the the whole time it's called Dar CEO right and you see it the whole time you see loads and loads of um I plenty of examples of top business people who tried to get

who tried to become politicians and it just doesn't seem to work and I I don't know I mean can I can I have a guess go on well if I look at the data I go if 35% of them come from one school eaten and then there's jobs being dished out based on if you take my opinion I'll give you a top five job I go I understand why I could never get in even if I was the best candidate because it's not being done based on who's the best candidate it's being done based on

like the old boys club but I'll do you a favor I'll if you well not not under not under the labor party presumably uh or you know or or any other party not not not not under the I mean most most conservative cabinets so just under the T party no I I think under under any party I think I think that business people do for reasons I find hard to put my f on they don't necessarily flourish in in that environment and who flourishes what I what I worry about is that the only people who

are already going to start doing it are people who are willing to go through a lot of um you know public attack I think social pass well I mean well the fact so look one of the interesting things that's happened recently is that social media has become very very virulent and um I I don't read it myself but I think it it becomes very oppressive for politicians and also for journalists and I think journalists [Music] um you know they get a lot of shellacking and a lot of abuse if they're not thought to be taking

one line or or the other or you know going easy on someone um I mean somebody who's going to interview me for this this book um yeah you look at and she's a very very good journalist but you look at the stuff that she gets online um about you know you know her being an Inquisitor of mine or whatever it's appalling it's really appalling and I think so I think that and I think that it's also the same for MPS I think that they get very um they think they think if it's a choice between

having a life where I can you know avoid this sort of stuff and you know having a wonderful existence doing something else or or putting myself through this on the point of that I said think thinking that it's related to the fact that people have got their hands on the scales they're pulling their friends up it's a bit of a boys club is there any truth in that I think but I think I look I'm sad to say Steve I think that this probably been the way politics has been since the dawn of time I

think that politicians I think politics has tended to be um factional uh since the dawn of time I think it's tended to be just sad but I think true um the the good thing is that in the end the people who are really successful are the people who get things done that the people want done do you think it's say magnet and so and so and so so so it's a it's a it's a magnet for very determined characters who are willing to put themselves through a lot soop get things well well I mean um

have I used those words before no no but that's the kind of person you're making me sounds like you're quoting me about maybe you but yeah but the kind of person that I think would be compelled and succeed in such an environment um I think I think you have to have a pretty thick skin okay but the but because of the because of the way it works the people who actually succeed are the people who really can drive something forward and and deliver it closing off on brexit um 62% of British people view brexit as

more of a failure according to yugov and 9% consider it more of a success um according to yugov as well 46% of British people say they should there should be a second e referendum in 10 years compared to just 36% that say it shouldn't be and according to let me just finish the stats you can respond um according to the UK's Real gross added value the gva a measure of the size of the economy um they say there's approximately 140 billion Less in 2023 in the UK economy compared to if the UK had stayed in

the single EU Market according to the same thing they say that 300 billion has been wiped off the value of the UK's economy um by 2035 and my last stat here is a report from the center of European reform in 2023 estimates the UK GDP was 5.5% smaller by mid 2023 compared to a scenario where the UK had remained in the EU this equates to an economic loss of about 40 billion annually and just as a business owner myself I was looking at some stats around what business owners think about 33% of small businesses reported

that brexit has made it harder for them to trade with the EU due to increased paperwork and things like this and the London School of Economics said that brex added 6% to food prices between 2020 and 2023 with all of this in mind do you regret brexit not at all not at all I mean honestly uh so we've outgrown Germany uh France since 2016 onwards uh sorry certainly out grown Italy uh since 2016 onwards last time I looked Germany and Italy were both members of the of the EU and when you the statistics that you

give I mean they are dwarfed for instance by covid um you know even if I even if you accept that um which I don't necessarily uh that uh brexit has caused uh problems it's also caused massive opportunities because we because we were able to come out of the lockdown earlier than any other country remember we we came out of lockdown in July 2021 we ended we ended all restrictions and that meant that we had the fastest economic rebound of any G7 country and that would not have happened in my view without the assistance of brexit

freedoms do you know the O ecd do you know what that body is yes yes they say the UK is the only major Rich economy that remains smaller poorer than prior to the pandemic and brexit may be a factor in that in the government's independent Watchdog which I know you know the office for Budget responsibility thinks the UK will ultimately be 4% worse off than it would have been had it not voted for brexit when I you know in business everything is a trade-off everything is a trade-off so you must be able to identify the

tradeoff that the UK has made for all of the upsides that you claim brexit is delivered so I think it's intellectually honest of anyone to be able to identify both sides of the argument here so what is the trade-off what has brexit cost us just it cost what it cost us yeah I think I think that that it's certainly true that um the the way that some of it is being managed by some of our by our European friends is unnecessarily bureaucratic at the moment I think that will get better I I I I I

accept that criticism I don't think it's the end of the the end of the world but I do think ultimately the advantage of being free to do your own thing free to run your own country to control your own tradeoff no I have I impact for us in but for me as an average citizen what's the what's the what's the trade downside yeah well I think you know you I it's certainly true that some some businesses are finding it harder to there is paperwork that I don't think there needs to be and we need to

fix that but I think that the te we have technological solutions to that I don't think that we need to be part of a European Empire of law get and ever denser and more detailed Empire of law controlling our freedom and stopping us is there an economic trade-off I I don't think I think that ultimately we will be richer as a result in the near ter we're going to be poorer well I you know again people were very emotional about this and look can I just remind you when before the referendum people said that and

no one ever holds these people to account people said that there would be Millions more unemployed right do you remember that people said there would have to be an emergency tax raising budget if the people voted to leave the EU actually uh when I cease to be prime minister unemployment was at a 50-year low and we had 620,000 more people in paid employment than before pandemic began point about the economic I'm just saying that people people make all sorts of prognostications about brexit the stats that I read you do you believe them that there's an

economic struggle in the short people said that we would be we would have a million people on the do Que because of brexit okay fine but do you believe that there's a in the near town they're now saying because they're now it's it's confirmation bias right people but you said we will be richer eventually so I'm saying I hope that we will if if we do the right thing sure so in the near term do you think there's a little bit of struggle to get through economically as a result of brexit I think the I

think that will that's certainly the case if we make the mistake of of staying I mean which is what K star and the labor parties you know want to do is staying in align alignment with the the EU they they basically want to be us to be rules takers okay I think that's a huge huge mistake we should go for freedom I don't know how to say this you in a way that you're going to understand but perfect T is banging I'm an investor in the company I drink it every day the whole team drinks

perfect Ted every day we have a perfect Ted fridge in the office here's why I like perfect Ted typical energy drinks used to give me these crashes and as a podcaster the last thing you want to do is be crashing in a conversation the founders of perfect Ted wanted to create an energy drink that wouldn't create that horrible crash cycle that many of us go through so they used matcha as the energy source and somehow they also made it really really delicious they've just come out with this new flavor called juicy Peach and it is

banging if you try perfect TS juicy Peach and it's not banging feel free to get in my DMs and cuss me out you can pick it up at tesos or waos or you can get it online and here's a secret that you've got to keep to yourself I'm going to give you 40% off perfect Ted just so you can try juicy Peach yourself go to perfect ted.com and at checkout put in the code diary 40 I'm going to leave that up for some time not forever that's perfect ted.com and then use code diary 40 at

checkout when you try it make sure you tag me on Instagram and and say Steve you were right it's banging the next big thing was the pandemic this was once you'd become the prime minister of the United Kingdom um and you have this pandemic begin to roll in I was looking at your the the way you described that situation in late 2019 early 2020 in your book and it appears that you had no idea of the severity of this virus that was rolling into the shores when was the first time you heard that there was

a virus that had come in from China whatever the date was I think it was either end of uh 2019 beginning of 2020 I I can't remember exactly when but there's there's a day when uh when I'm walking through the lobby of the House of Commons with the health secretary and he says you know there's I'm worried about this um this Chinese virus was that hanock the right person to be handling that because that is a generational once in a lifetime health issue yeah and in I look I think I think he did a very

good job yes I think he was he was very energetic was he the best person to be handling it I think it I think he I think he did a very good job and I think that was he the best person to be handling it look in hindsight well I I certainly think that he well yes because I think yes I think that he had the right mixture of energy and and realism um don't forget we didn't know about the the disease we didn't know how lethal it was we didn't know how contagious it was

and we didn't know how exactly how it was transmitted there was a lot of stuff we we didn't know some quotes from your book here you said the problem wasn't that I was ignorant to zuntic diseases the problem was that I felt I knew all about them um after more than 30 years of writing about or dealing with new zootic zootic yeah diseases I felt I knew my SARS and my Ebola so to speak and I concluded two things first that these novel zuntic plagues tend to sort themselves out and second that the greater risk

of destruction from from these from attempts to stop them by politicians um was there sort of attempts to contain the diseases that the prevention would probably be worse than the cause in some respects so when hanock started talking about a new Corona virus possibly from bats and the risk that it would sweep the country it was hardly surprising that I felt I'd heard this all before little did we know yes I I mean so I think that's I that's I'm I'm being very honest there about about um as I am throughout Unleashed about the my

state of mind because you know i' I'd covered in great detail um the uh salmon and eggs Panic uh when millions of chickens were slaughtered uh needlessly i' covered the uh the bines punch for men off the Panic mad car disease when uh vast portion of the UK dairy uh cattle herd was slaughtered probably uh needlessly um the livelihoods of farmers were destroyed um I'd been mayor of London when we we were threatened with the uh with a bird flu um so didn't was a big deal and we we' laid on stocks of Tamiflu which

turned out not to be to be necessary uh so I've seen SARS come and go uh Ebola and so on and in each of these cases what what what seemed to have happened was that there had been a rational anxiety about the risk of a xonotic disease um often from Asia or wherever um we would get in a real we' do our best to get ready and then it mysteriously leave us almost completely unaffected I remember the swine flu is that what you thought was happen in this case and I didn't know course I didn't

know but I was what I was trying to do was to give you context the context and the state of mind that I think a lot of people were in when they they heard about about Co when did you call China February had it February 2020 there was a call you made to the leader of China to Xin ping yeah yeah I mean I would have called him I mean it'll be in the it'll be in it'll be in the book and you were sending supplies yeah that stage we were we were still sending um

supplies to help them there we were we were sending prote what did he say about the virus well I said um I look my remember the conversation is hazy now I I I think I you know um congratulated him on what seemed to be his efforts to control the disease but said I was I was anxious about the what was happening in these wet markets because at that stage we were given to understand that these the disease had had occurred um spontaneously in a in a market in Wuhan what did he say and I can't

remember what he said to to that um I don't think I he look I mean he's a he a president of China I don't think he wanted to particularly the implication that China was in any way at at fault and I can take understand that but I now think that wasn't right I know I think it almost certainly was a um a lab accident or it was as a result of something that went wrong in that lab can I ask about this because this started as a conspiracy theory that is now widely accepted as the

probable likely outcome why were they messing around with a virus in a lab in Wuhan well you may well ask I mean I think it I think they were why do you think they were someone that is so far away from why people do these s such a thing I I I genuinely don't know but I think that they were they were exp you know science the the point of science is to keep pushing back the frontiers of human knowledge everywhere and to see what you see what they could do you think it was a

weapon I don't I didn't have any reason to think so I didn't have any reason to think so I think it was a terrible accident I think the thing um escaped from the lab I think you know they they were uh looking at engineering these viruses a function gain of the of the um of the virus and and ways that they could manipulate it and um sadly something went wrong um that's that's my best guess and a lot of people now seem to think that you called Trump around this time as well to speak to

him about it I did yes what did he think um well I yeah I mean he took the the firm view that you know China had a case to answer but so did a lot of people and in the book you talk about the World Health organization's response being seen seemingly hesitant because they are wanted to keep Beijing in favor yes I think a lot of scientists were anxious about cheesing off the the Chinese and I think a lot of scientists you know because China is very heavily involved in the support and sponsorship for of

a lot of um academic research and and so on so there was a sort of hesitant I felt I me I might have been wrong about this my impression was there was a sort of um gingerness about seeming to fing of the Chinese too much on lockdowns um it's interesting that I was reading in your book that around the 8th of March you start to see what's going on in Italy and I think we can all vividly remember those scenes from those Italian hospitals where there was patients in the chors being pushed around on trol

trollies and there was not enough beds and I think for me as well that was one of the big moments where I realized watching it actually play out on Twitter that this was an incredibly serious situation something that I'd never seen in my lifetime before um was that the the penny drop moment for you that this wasn't just another bird flu or I was very anxious about it because I knew the Italian Health Care system I thought it was broadly excellent and I remember when you know one of our one of our kids had a

uh fell into a swim pool in in in Italy once you know when everybody was having a lion you know most shattering thing that you know could never happened to you and the Italian Prontos Coro came and they were unbelievably good they were so fast they were they they were so and I thought you know if the Italians are having problems with this thing and you know frankly our population is about as elderly as theirs then this could be very very serious so I think that I think I think that did really register with me

and so if you look at the and obvious I defer completely to the inquiry into into all this under Dame Heather Howard but if you look at what happened from then on in you see a series through through March up till the 23rd of March you see a series of intensifying steps to try to get people to take precautions what I what I observed I saw that in the book and you kind of have the stages that you break down um that you went through from that moment onwards what I observed though and I think

this is probably a fair estimation or a fair description of what happened was there was indecision because it seemed like there was facts coming from one ear facts coming from the other ear and there was almost a bit of paral is and when you look at the rest of the European numbers which I was looking through um yesterday about when different sort of European markets made that decision the UK appears to make the decision to lock down much slower than all the other European nations um slower to close the schools the shops and events seem

to be later than our European counterparts and Matt hanock went on to say that they were ahead of us in the in the in the epicur anyway MH uh so so so they they so you mentioned the Italian situation yeah and they they were already ahead of us and you know we could see that we were going to have to bring in measures but you know again this will be for the inquiry to to comment upon but it's it's it's pretty clear to me that we we couldn't reasonably have instituted these measures in the UK

which would novel and draconian um in advance of the scientific advice or opinion and and that's what and that's what it would have been them being ahead of us isn't relevant because the chart I have here shows how many days it took us to take decisive action after the third death and it shows that for all of the European nations and when I was reading about the information you were getting from scientists on this end and from other people in politics it was so contradictory that I think I was guessing that that's what caused the

decision and also your own sort of philosophy towards shutting down soci we had this group called the scientific Advisory Group on emergencies right the sage and they they were so we were going to be led by the science and we basically had to I decided that we had to follow what Sage advised and for a long time to a point they hesitated about schools because of all the dis benefits and if you remember the argument was that if you went too early then there was a a risk that you'd have to keep doing it uh

because you you know the public would lose patience with with the lockdown and there was there there was a second argument which was there would then be bounced back if you if if you went too early uh and you kept on for twoo you'd then take the measures off and the virus would would flare up again and which indeed did happen um throughout the course of the of the pandemic so there were the scientific advice was I mean it wasn't I wouldn't say it was particularly confused at that stage I think it was they were

struggling to assess exactly what to to do and there were different views within the scientists about certain things like Matt hanock said that we could have saved 30,000 lines like um masks and so on is that true Matt Han you know I if we if we' lock down earlier I I I can't say that for sure uh I I I've no no way of knowing that um but what I what I can say is that the to have locked down earlier would have been to have um gone beyond to have anticipated scientific advice it would

not have been some and I'm you know I'm not a epidemiologist I'm I'm not a scientist uh I was being asked to you know the what was on the agenda was imprisoning the whole UK population um it wasn't something the scientists were yet recommending in the book you seem to question whether those lockdowns really even worked so I'm not saying that what I'm saying so dep what you mean by work I think that they certainly did have a role in stopping spread of the disease and they helped probably to turn down the the curve of

the of the disease probably I you know almost certainly what I find very difficult to gauge now and you know again this is for for heet is to what extent was it the lockdowns what did it and to what extent was this going to happen naturally a result of the the natural Parabola and you suspect it was going to happen anyway I'm not what I what I'm saying is that to some extent it to some extent or to a large extent it was perhaps going to happen anyway perhaps and given that it was perhaps it

was to a large exent perhaps going to happen anyway the question is did the benefit benefits of lockdown outweigh the very very severe Damage Done to kids life chances at school which talked about earlier what do you think the answer to that question is I think that we did the right thing you think we did the right thing I think we did the right thing but I but I'm I'm conscious that there are lots of people who who disagree and what I hope is that the covid inquiry will will say that yes we did do

the right thing in your book when you talk about those those measures um you refer to them as Bon the the sort of different areas yeah I think that's that's bit that's later that's by the that's when we got to the tearing system the tearing system you talked B Bonkers and you seem surprised that people would follow this stuff and that they wanted to follow this stuff which is strange hearing it from the guy that put the rules in place you think it's the tearing system was Bonkers and you surprised talk about the hindsight right

yeah yeah so at the time at the time it seemed so we had a situation so coming out of the first um the first um lockdown so in in the summer of of 2020 and and going into the into the Autumn and things start to get more difficult again we have a situation where in some parts of the country in I don't know places uh like leester or West Midlands or or wherever uh Northwest um you have the tears you've got a problem which is that some areas haven't really seen a you know the co

really go down anything like as much as it went down say West country Cornwall was that a bad idea in say and so you had uh people saying you know why the hell should pu be closing cornall yeah when there's no Co and just because there there's Transmission in in in bolon or wherever so is that a bad idea in hindsight well no it was a good idea in principle because because because after all um it was it it was crazy it seemed but the problem the problem was that it was very very difficult to

draw the boundaries and as soon as you as soon as you said you know well this bit of Lester's in uh tier which whatever or or yeah it was it was impossible went crazy because it was very invidious and it see and on on a human level when you're leading the country during a pandemic and you've got you're getting these numbers every day that people are dying and that people are sick and then you know I know you got sick yourself what is there a mental toll on you throughout that period Well I think it

was so as you discover it Unleashed I like it when I can go forward and when I have things positive projects to do so it was very very difficult when I was constantly having to shut the country down constantly trying to stop the transmission of the Disease by these very very crude methods but once in by end of 2020 we had the prospect of a vaccination then my mood totally changed because because then I had something my question was about you as a human being when you're dealing with tragic news and this escalating pandemic what

what's the human toll if i' had been a fly on the wall in your hardest moments throughout that pandemic what would I have seen well I think that I think it was certainly pretty tough I I had a bad bout of covid what was the hardest day outside of the getting the illness yourself what was the hardest day for you throughout that period I think that ah boy I think it was there was a lot of tough times but I think having to having to go probably the to go back into lockdown in in in

the end of 2020 was pretty pretty awful because the CL you we'd really really hope that tearing would work and you know some people still think it could have worked um but it just W you know we we couldn't I couldn't take the risk the quote from your book that I pulled out which really shocked me was the real question I suppose is why on Earth the public so avidly craved these rules and why they were so willing to have their doings circumscribed in such a rabinal detail in their complexity they were also like a

kind of religion detailed rituals you just obeyed L Leviticus like in the hope of Salvation because science was slow to help us on the 13th of September 2021 your mother Charlotte passes away while at the same time you're dealing with all of this Fallout and the recovery from the pandemic that's a tough moment yeah but that's the same for any person in any um in any Walk of Life you know that's always a a very very tough moment um I think that um you know to to your to your point about the the people why

why do people obey the rules so much and and my my feelings about that I think no I'm asking about your mother here so your mother passed away in September 2021 and you you don't touch on it so heavily in the book the circumstances of that but that must be a particularly tough moment for a person that's dealing with all of these other social issues and political issues at the same time yes I know but I mean I think I suppose the point I make there is that is our our common human law lot isn't

it and yes it it was tough for me and my my brothers and sisters of my family um very very very tough you know we miss her to this day uh all of us but you know um a lot of people were suffering a lot throughout that pandemic and a lot of people lost loved ones and you know I had to be I had to be very very mindful of of what was happening every day in in households across the country and and I had to try to and I had a desperately difficult because one

of the interesting things about being prime minister is is the way it works now is how much of it is just funneled upwards and you know there's you have to take those decisions there's nobody else who can do it for you would you remember where you were when you found out that Charlotte was had passed away got I think it was in I was driving driving to London I I'd been I'd been out on a visit and was it unexpected well I mean you know um she'd had she'd been out for a long time with

um with Parkinson's and she had various complications associated with Parkinson's um and she'd had a bad scare about a year previously so no I couldn't say it was you know um medically I could not say it was medically totally unexpected no did you have a chance to grieve her passing I certainly did grief her passing um but um if if you mean did I sort of process it mourn it I you know to I to the best of my ability yes are you good are you a natural at that sort of thing that sort of

emotional I guess connection with yourself God um I think probably go back to some of the earlier things we were we were saying I mean I did grieve and you know I do miss her like all my brothers and sisters I do I do miss her today but you know um I also had a huge amount to to think about and to get done and and we just have to you know we had to do it many members of the UK population were also mourning and grieving at the same time and I think that's why

the the party gate scenario which you talk about in the book was so enraging for many people because as someone who again is not very close to politics like myself it's Optics here you know and I think that's really the issue when you've got people who are unable to see their their loved ones because of the situation with funerals and the pandemic even the suggestion that there was a rave going on in number 10 is the most enraging thing that I think anyone could say but there wasn't a rave going on I mean you'll find

it all that you'll find all Unleashed and there and I feel desperate about it and I really do and I and I understand you know completely why people got so enraged I really do understand that and I did my I did my best to to try and you know I think I mishandled the whole thing the the the revelations as such as they were uh but also reality but you know because at the end of the book you do seem to to highlight that you could have done things to well what I could have done

was what I could have done I think so I I wonder why I commissioned Sue gray uh to conduct an investigation into it I mean I I was informed that she was the you know politically impartial and a model of sort of you know obsessed with with Proby and and neither of those things now seem to me to true I've got a picture here um there was 17 parties that were alleged during the the the sort of party gate time frame and one of the pictures that leaked to the public was this picture of you

enjoying some cheese and some wine I believe um at 10 Downing Street now as again a member of the public I look at this I look at some of these key dates I know you were fined for one particular date which was your birthday I think where you were raising the glass of wine with some colleagues no I wasn't you see again you see people say this kind of thing and it was it the AIDS leaving drink that you were fined for no I wasn't fined for that what were you find for I was fined

for my for going into stand at my desk in the cabinet room uh between meetings with a glass of wine no not with a glass of wine um and several members of staff were also there but there were people I saw throughout the working day anyway but this picture and just just cuz people think that I had a cake and that we we didn't have a I didn't have a cake I I I didn't even see a cake um to say it was a party is a complete travesty it was about the most lugubrious event

in the it was it consisted of people who were part of my normal working life that that picture that you you're pointing to there was this the the Metropolitan Police did at that but they decided there was no offense committed because what you've got is people sitting outside as as people tried to do during those times because there was much less risk of infection just let me just read some of the stuff so 15th of May 2020 cheese and wine um at Downing Street approximately 349 people had died from Co that Day in the UK

Mr Johnson was photographed sitting with his wife Carrie and some staff at a table with wine and cheese in the number 10 Garden at this time Co restrictions so that people could not reasonable excuse let me just read this and then I'll but we we were I was that that's my that is my home that's the garden I was supposed to be May 20th um there was a bring your own booze party on the same day that 38 people died from the from the pandemic and you attended for about 30 minutes you say it was

25 minutes and then the 19th of June was your your birthday sorry okay can I just go back over there I mean you know none of this watches with the public because they all think that we were you know having dancing around and and getting drunk 12th of April Johnson announces that he has been f50s by the police do you know what it is though it like it's all about it's all it's all about leading by example isn't it and you know this yeah I think my opinion is that whatever is going on at number

10 needs to be the extreme demonstration of the perfect example the extreme demonstration because you of course you're going to be attacked you know that yeah of course if you sneeze you'll be attacked and I say that in that's what I'm saying so so what we should have done and and I I say is we should have I should have said to everybody look people are going to say you know matter because it was in fact as I tried to explain impossible to maintain perfect social distancing uh in the the office environment that we were

in um people were working around the clock um and I I think that um I should have said something to the staff like people are going to be out to get us for God's sake you know not only obey the rules but be seen to obey the rules now we had you know all the signs in the corridors and and and stuff like that I think that there were a lot of people by that stage who were perhaps not altogether friendly to me uh who wanted to you know that's that's fine that's fine but honestly

I I can't help but believe cuz I try and remain pretty impartial in these things so I try to apply common sense as like a business person but do you really think I was deliberately partying and breaking the rules for me do you really think that for me seeing that photo when one of my friends can go to their grandmother's funeral and seeing that there's people drinking and have appearing to have a whale of a time just in this photo but also the other photos where you're cheersing with wine I go you should never have

allowed that to happen do you know and I think you agree with me agree with me because you said at the end of the book you said I should have said to to my whole team don't even let them appear to be breaking the rules in in in in the course of almost two years of people working around the clock in number 10 in conditions of great proximity to each other um there were going to be moments when of course when colleagues are saying are going away when you raise a glass to them unless you're

going to ban that I think you should have well that's a point of view because I just think alcohol in 1940 we would we would have won the second world war I think Prime I think prime minister during a pandemic I think you just have to be the most extreme example we we got a ban on alcohol in this country no I think I think I think genuinely s if we if we if we banned alcohol in number 10 in 1940 M I think all Gatherings should have been banned at number 10 because I think

sorry but we were gather we that means Banning meetings so what do you mean Gatherings Gatherings with alcohol and music and cake I think have been B I've tried to explain to you there was no cake or I saw no cake I I was at no event where there was there was music or dancing that total nonsense now maybe those things took place but they certainly didn't Place take place when I was there I think one of the problem one of the mistakes I made was beginning the whole thing by issuing this General apology and

so what happened was so that people think that there was um there was do you still apologize I don't apologize for allegations of vomiting or fist fights because they turned out what you apologize for and well I in so far as people broke the rules on my watch and far as I'm responsible of course I apologize for that but what I was what I'm what I'm saying in Unleashed is that um the problem with leading with a blanket apology was that it then meant that absolutely any allegation that was you you know you've said you've

just said made a couple of your so um you know any allegation that was then made about and in Sue Gray's initial report that she had to to change it she said there were uh there was a you know violent altercation and and vomiting and somebody V but they that both of those things turned out not to be true you said you made the mistake in the in your book you say you made the mistake of issuing pathetic and groveling apologies over the Scandal which made it look as though we were far more culpable than

we were which is just the point I've just made because I think because because it it looked as though but by issuing a sort of universal apology it meant that any subsequent um allegation people assume well that must be what happened and you and you to be fair to I I I kind of get the feeling that's what you think and that was largely my fault because I seem to be intently validating the apology is is is not I seem to be validating everything that people said about what was going on and what was actually

going on was that people were working unbelievably hard around the clock to get a lot of very difficult things done I and and and actually what the the things that they were successful in are very creditable and I and so I feel badly about them on page 75 of your book you say in retrospect I should have done more to protect myself and the rest of white hle against party type allegations I should have said to the entire staff perhaps in a letter about the vital importance of not only obeying the rules but also to

be seen to be obeying them and reminding um and I think that that is actually my point which is apologies I think are good things I think people should apologize no but you I'm trying to explain if if you apologize in advance for the the problem was that a lot of things were said about staff in number 10 that weren't true and weren't fair to them and my blanket looked as though I was validating and accepting all those criticisms okay which which I think was not in retrospect I think I should have waited to see

exactly what people you know said and I what was established to be true and then I should have apologized for what what actually happened you see what I'm saying and and also I want to stick up again for those officials yeah uh who were working around the clock to sort out the government's and the country's response to covid and when it came to it did an absolutely outstanding job and I I don't want I don't I know you've been you've been very patient with me you you know you you've you've allowed me to talk for

almost two and a half hours and of what I thought was going to be an hour's show so I'm you've been heroic in putting up with we're wrapping up now but I just wanted wanted to ask a few more things these are personal questions that I have so um um one of the things that no one knows about you is how many kids you have why is this such a widely debated subject I've never sat with a guest on my show where I don't know why widely debated it's a matter of a matter of I

have eight children it's eight matter matter of public record okay I don't know why people why is everyone so obsessed with with a of kids you have search me go Charlotte Owen you're not related to her are you no she's not a former lover no okay I asked my friends some of the things they want to she so she's but it's in the book read read all about it in the book she is a she is a very capable adviser and what happens next for Boris Johnson are you going back into I live a life

of blameless rustic obscurity you want to get back into politics I I think that um I stay in unleashed the chance of the frisbe dec I saying Unleashed you you should only do things if you genuinely think you can be useful at the moment I think the most I'm loving I do a lot of painting I'm having a great time living in uh you know in the countryside um I I got my hands folding all sorts of things and and next question quick fire yeah Trump or camalo and you can't sit on the phone all

British prime ministers including ex- Prime Ministers yeah are constitutionally obliged to be friendly with whoever who's the best for international relations whoever whoever the um the American people decide that is that is the right thing and you are dwindling audience would not expect who who's better for stopping the wars a who's better for stopping the wars I mean you know if you read Unleashed I did read it okay and I saw your interview on GB news and you seem to think that Trump would be a better well I think what I'm saying is that you

should be aware of some of the kind of anti-trump prejudice about his handling of foreign policy and there are very good re you know there very when he was president he took some tough decisions and and you know projected in a sense of American strength and purpose and that's you know but I make no no further comment than that and we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to leave it for right okay and the question that's been left for

you is Success often comes at a price and one of those is the relationships we lose along the way which relationship or person did you lose in the pursuit of your success um you seem to one of the longer you live the the the more you you know you can have what seems to be a complete terrible Sun and then Le and behold things cheer up and andn your your your friends again and um so I mean look at look at look at Michael go you got to answer the question which relationship will pass the

answer the answer your question is I don't I don't I don't regard any of the termination any any rupture I don't regard any rupture as fin no one's ever swered this question so you're not going to be the first I didn't regard any rupture as final which relationship or person did you lose in the pursuit of your success they are not lost I didn't I I don't give me a person give me a name we've never had a this is a long-standing tradition no one's ever swerve this question I had a clearly I had a

rupture with Michael Gove but then um in 2016 but then with um heroic optimism I I I put him back in the in the cabinet and and you know there you go Baris thank you thank you for your time and I'm going to link this book below so any uned can can get the book it'll be linked below um it was your your your writing style is exceptionally engaging I think everyone that's interviewed you from the ITV to GB news has said the same thing um the book is linked below if you're interested in the

subject matters we've talked about but many more it's an exceptionally long book some 700 I don't know I got it wrong I think it's it's over 7 771 pages2 pages with the with the index and the and the and the thanks and Incredibly detailed um book into all of the key issues that have happened over the last five six seven years and some touches of of what happened in your life before link down below Boris Johnson Unleashed thank you so much Boris thank you very much Steve it's been an honor I I think do I

get a prize for I think that must be that was a that how long was that interview supposed to be because I don't know they're always two usually they're four sometimes they're four hours I see isn't this cool every single conversation I have here on the Diary of a CEO at the very end of it you'll know I asked the guest to leave a question in the Diary of a CEO and what we've done is we've turned every single question written in the Diary of a CEO into these conversation cards that you can play at

home so you've got every guest we've ever had their question and on the back of it if you scan that QR code you get to watch the person who answered that question we're finally revealing all of the questions and the people that answered the question the brand new version 2 updated conversation cards are out right now at Theon conversation cards.com they've sold out twice instantaneously so if you are interested in getting hold of some limited edition conversation cards I really really recommend acting quickly [Music] a [Music]