TESTING OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCES - Thomas Campbell #27

one experiment in particular that was one that kind of finally got me to the point that i no longer ask the question is this real was one where bob had dennis and i go out of body together meet up above the lab we were just leave our bodies go up above the lab meet and then go on some kind of an adventure together you know some kind of thing just explore the larger reality together and bob of course had a recording of what we were saying we were telling him stream of consciences everything that was

going on and what we were doing and what we said and there was dennis and i having conversations asking each other questions oh do you see that sentence that's over there oh you mean the pointy yellow one that's that's next to the green one yes that's the one you know and we're we're well let's go explore that okay and we're having these kind of conversations and that after i listened to well i don't know the first 20 or 30 minutes of that my jaw kind of dropped down and i was like oh my god this

stuff is real [Music] hello everybody and welcome back to chasing consciousness i really hope you're enjoying this second series as much as i am so today we have the extraordinary topic of the science and physics of out of body experience to get our heads around many brain scientists have reduced this very common experience to a mix of physiological and brain chemical effects maintaining that no perceiving consciousness actually leaves the body rather it's a sort of hallucination not knowing when these experiences will spontaneously occur has made them really hard to study in the lab as well

however certain researchers have developed a method for inducing the experience allowing for deeper study and following that study some new theories of reality have developed that include such an experience and others like it for example near-death experiences or nde and controlled remote viewing which we'll be evaluating in this second series with some really really brilliant specialists one such scientist is our guest today physicist dr tom campbell he's an experimental physicist who's been working for over 20 years developing us missile systems for the department of defense specializing in developing cutting edge technology large system simulation technology

development and integration and complex system vulnerability and risk analysis he began researching altered states of consciousness with bob monroe at the monroe laboratories in the early 70s and he helped design the experiments and developed the technology for creating specific altered states and he became an experienced test subject and trainer too so after many years of studying consciousness and out-of-body experiences he wrote the book my big toe as in theory of everything which describes his model of existence and reality from both the physical and the metaphysical points of view now i have been fascinated to understand

the study of outer body experience that goes beyond the crazy anecdotes we hear and or mere reductionism so without further ado let's go [Music] tom campbell welcome to chasing consciousness thank you so much for coming on the show how are you i'm doing just fine freddie how are you today i'm pretty good i'm pretty good so tom i always like to start by going back to the guests first conscious thoughts when they started questioning the world as a kid are there any important thoughts from that time that have stayed with you well i'm not sure

i could pick out um particular thoughts like that but i will say that even as a very young child i had certain characteristics that i still have now and that is i have always questioned everything i've always been one that was skeptical of everything i i was one that had a particular problem with arbitrary authority um so i kind of went my own way i've always been an outsider you know in my own mind rather than a a member you know of a culture or the society or you know of parties or organizations i generally

am not a joiner i find that very constricting i've always been um very uh can i say careful not to believe anything and to be skeptical of everything and i've as far as i can tell i've always been that way you know i was one of those kids that drove their parents nuts by always asking them questions you know well why well why is that like that and then of course i'd get an answer well why was it and it just so that was kind of who i was as a child now i started life

and it's kind of unusual perhaps but i started life very right-brained very holistic thinker i was connected to kind of everything and everybody and i realized at a pretty young age that i needed to get a firmer grip on um the details not just big picture stuff but the details and by the time i was old enough to know that there were such things as scientists i wanted to be one and i then studied math and physics and so on but i found it very challenging because my right brain holistic viewpoint of the world was

not the best viewpoint to be doing mathematics and to be doing physics you know that's very logical process oriented so i struggled with that and struggled with it and eventually i got good at it and it became easy for me so if there's anything about me that is unusual and and comes from a very young age it's that i am extremely right-brained and extremely left-brained both i'm i'm not uh most of us are kind of one of the other we fall into one camp or the other camp but uh i'm pretty uh pretty uh strongly

right and left brain so that makes me a bit unusual in the way i approach things and approach reality i was one of these kids that really had a hard time with things like spelling because you know in my very um practical sense it seemed to me that anybody with a creative mind could find at least five ways to spell almost anything and that it was rather arbitrary that one of those five ways was the one that was picked that was called right you know so i was a bit of a rebel uh in my

in my viewpoints i had a very hard time memorizing anything because i thought memorization was not a good thing to do one should always derive everything from first principles so i was slow but given enough time i generally did very well i could come up with the answers usually better than my peers because when you derive things you really understand them you're not just learning a process to get right answers you really understand what's going on i can't really identify with that tom um the left the well-balanced left and right hemisphere thinking uh listeners we

covered this at the end of the first series with uh dr ian mcgillcrist a fascinating thinker do go back to that episode 15 and have a listen to his analysis of the left right hemisphere research because it is absolutely extraordinary how important it is for us to understand the influence of both of these hemispheres not only in us as individuals but in our society and we may find with tom today that we find that a lot of the ideas we're going to be discussing later really are difficult for those working very much from a left

hemisphere kind of approach but we'll come back to that so tom let's start with the nuts and bolts the meat of today's conversation the science of out-of-body experiences or obes as they're often called how would you define an obe when do people have tend to have them and what are the more common reported features for those having these obes first let me say that the term out of body is a very poor term that was that's unfortunate i think bob monroe coined that term you know an out-of-body experience before that it was called astral projection

and had a few other names to it but he wanted to get rid of the belief-based uh wording and come up with some kind of neutral wording so he came up with out-of-body experience where your consciousness became aware but not from the perspective of your body but from a perspective of being outside the body so he called it an out-of-body experience and since then people have had this idea that your body has within it a consciousness and that consciousness can somehow project out of that body and then you know gather information see things do things

whatever you know have experiences and that is wrong it doesn't work that way at all so it's not a matter of getting out of the body that's a wrong it's just as a you know everything about it is wrong it's it's just a mystery yeah well the the fundamental underlying assumptions are all wrong is the problem you know it's it's very much when somebody says well you know tell me about this about out of body it's just like if you were back in the 1500s when people believe that the heavenly bodies were moved through the

sky you know every every night because they were pushed by angels that's about fifteen hundred fourteen fifteen hundred that was what the intelligentsia you know the thinkers the scientists the philosophers of the day that's what they had come to now they're they weren't less clever than we are today they had about the same level of intelligence we do and from what they understood that was a rational conclusion so as as amusing as that sounds as a cosmology today that's what serious thinkers thought and if you had been teleported back to that time and they asked

you they said uh freddie uh you know we understand a whole lot of things here you're from the future you know you've teleported back or you're from the future you're smarter than we are we understand a lot of things but there's just one thing that we really don't understand how to how to come we'd like you to help me with it tell us how many angels does it take to move those heavenly bodies is it one angel per heavenly body or are do you have like say bunches of angels to move the big ones like

the moon and the smaller ones that are just little points of light maybe they maybe one angel moves several of those you know so how is it that this is done well that's a very specific question looking for a very specific answer how many angels does it take to move each of these heavenly bodies when they're obviously of different size the moon being obviously the biggest one so how would you answer that question you couldn't there's so many wrong you know fundamental understandings from the very get-go the answer of how many angels does it take

is this when you'd have to say i can't answer that question because the question is so wrong to begin with well that's how i find it when you somebody asked me about the projection of the consciousness out of the body is this so fundamentally coming from a wrong understanding of the nature of reality that it's an impossible question to answer consciousness is not projected from the body that's not the way it works you are not a body that has a consciousness you're a consciousness that is playing a body you see so it's it's an an

opposite viewpoint and when you change that viewpoint then everything else changes you know all the ways you look at things change so it takes a big paradigm shift of what is reality and who are you and why are you here and what is your purpose all of those things have to be seen from a different viewpoint and what is most interesting freddie particularly because this show of yours is really about science and rational understanding is that when you take this new perspective about the nature of reality suddenly a lot of things fall into place not

only can you explain logically how all the paranormal things work why they work why they sometimes don't work you can explain all that logically and you can explain way the weirdness of quantum physics quantum physics isn't weird it's a perfectly logical science just like any other science you don't have to as as the famous line goes shut up and calculate you can just look at the logic and come up with the answer like other sciences there it's a logical thing we're definitely going to be coming back to the the physics of your model of reality

that's come from all of your time doing this research so let's maybe start then more with a medical understanding of it so just so we have a starting point from shall we say traditional medical science when do people tend to have these experiences and what are the kind of experiential features that people tend to report because there's quite a few shall we say um commonalities isn't there things that people tend to report like for example the the string connected to the stomach things like that let's start with that medical kind of definition all right again

it's a very difficult question to ask but let me work let me work at it from my perspective and that is that first of all everybody can have what is called out of body okay that's not you don't have to be special to do that anybody can learn how to do that most people do not do that because they are locked into their intellects they view the world just through their intellects all of the paranormal things including out-of-body operate only through the intuitive side not through the intellectual side well if you're locked into the intellectual

side then that's impossible it doesn't work and if you're trying to bring your intellect along like and observe what is actually going on and what's happening here and am i doing it right then of course nothing will happen so that's what makes it difficult it's not that we have to learn a skill to get out of body it's that we have to let go of old beliefs that's the main that's the main key now that that chord you're talking about that chord is just an artifact of belief people have a belief that this this consciousness

this soul the soul travel that's another name for it the astral projection before that that this this cord has to connect the soul or the consciousness to the body otherwise without the soul the body would shrivel and go away and without the body the soul would have nothing to attach to and would wither and go away so the two are necessary sort of like the diver in the big diving suit under the water it needs a cord that the air can come through otherwise the diver is going to is going to die so because of

that belief that that's the case then people see this silver cord that silver cord is nothing more than a manifestation of their beliefs it doesn't really exist it's not a real thing people aren't really projecting anything out of their body consciousness does not live in your body your body does not create consciousness consciousness is not a a um epiphenomena of the physical world consciousness is fundamental the physical world is a subset of consciousness now all of those things i'm saying sound like you know very very radical uh off the wall crazy statements but they all

are very logical and and [Music] i suspect to make them um make sense i would have to give you more background of you know how do i get to those kind of outrageous ideas well tom i have to interrupt to say that it's not that outrageous there is an enormous amount of philosophers particularly but now even physicists as well coming towards the pancikis point of view that consciousness is fundamental we're going to be speaking to durham university philosopher philip gough about this he has written an awful lot about it um you can look him up

listeners uh he's going to be in this series as well where we're going to literally be presenting the arguments and the logical arguments that tom's referencing here for pan psychism um so tom don't feel you need to go into that now i think really what we're hoping to to get as a starting point is the sort of shall we say the way science sees it now so that we could then once we've presented your experience at the monroe institute and the techniques that you developed and the theory that you developed based on those experiences maybe

then we can loop back and really understand why you have these what might be considered radical beliefs if you know if if not i personally don't believe that they're illogical at all no no they're not and they are gaining there are gaining uh support as we go you know i published my books uh my big trilogy in 2003 and at that time myself and maybe dr edward fredkin and maybe one or two others that uh published thought that um virtual reality was a good idea you know a fundamental idea and that's just what 20 years

ago not quite but just about 20 years ago and in that 20 years it's gone from just a few people thinking that's a good idea to like you say a very large number of people thinking that's a good idea you ask physicists now who are quantum theorists or who are what they call particle physicists and they will tell you very matter-of-factly that reality is information-based that's the understanding that physics has at this point reality is based now they don't say anything more than that because they don't have any model or conception that they can hang

anything else on they just don't know okay they know it's information based but what does that mean and they'd say i have no idea i just know that it is information based but i don't have any theory or structure to you know to build a solid logical foundation under that idea so i don't know where it goes but they know that it's true from their experiments so that's why a lot of physicists a lot of scientists even philosophers they've picked up on that thing that quantum mechanics has kind of given us that materialism doesn't really

explain the fundamental nature of the world and they've developed it in in many ways so i agree with you it is a coming idea and it will continue to grow until it becomes the mainstream idea one day it will be mainstream because it represents better science just represents it just represents better science um tell us the extraordinary story of how you met altered states researcher bob monroe and um what as a physicist you were invited to come in and test and and what techniques and tools you you built and you you structured which really brought

the monroe institute forward into to being one of the most famous institutes for the research of autism tell the story tom it's so interesting okay well that takes me back to when i was a graduate student and as a graduate student working on my phd already had a masters in my pocket was working on the phd i took a course in transcendental meditation and it was easy for me i just fell into that it was a very natural for it i didn't struggle with it the whole concept just just took to me very well within

a couple of months i realized that i could debug my software in my mind without ever looking at the printout just go through a kind of control through the printout in my mind and the the lines that had errors in them would be in red and i'd look at it and i'd read it because i wrote all that code so i knew exactly where you know what every line was and i would go check in those days then the bad old days of computing i'd go check my 4 000 cards you know they were they

were in these boxes and i'd find the card that had that line on it and sure enough i'd find an error on that line so that totally turned my sense of reality upside down as a physicist i had a belief that reality was defined by what was called an operational definition and that is that if you could operate on it in other words if you could interact with it in some way if you could measure it then it was real if you couldn't measure it it was either not real or irrelevant because if you can't

interact with it then you know what's the point so most physicists kind of had that that's a very materialistic viewpoint and most physicists had that viewpoint now this was 1970 you know 1968 somewhere in that late 60s early 70s and that opened up my my my mind to another whole set of reality i could do this it was a fact i did it over and over again it was wonderful i was better i was better at finding bugs in any of my peers you know it was it made my my work go along much more

quickly so it was really a a thing that was valuable and it told me that reality was bigger than i thought now i'm a i'm a physicist so what i do is model reality that's what physics is it's modeling reality and suddenly here's all this other reality that i now know exists but i had no idea how to model it or or why it was like that or what it could do so a couple of years after well i knew a couple of years a couple of months really after getting out of graduate school i

had a chance to meet bob monroe and when i met bob monroe i was interested in seeing just what kind of guy this bob monroe was because i had his book given to me and told me to read it this was my boss where i worked i was working in military technical intelligence and i read the book and thought that well if this guy's telling the truth wow that's that's neat because i have had these experiences that told me reality was bigger so i was open to that but probably he was just making this stuff

up to sell books so i went to see him what a cool boss tom i mean uh had he heard about the remote viewing program what on earth inspired him to i had to to know bob monroe that that was surprising yeah he knew of bob monroe but he handed me this book and said tom tell me what you think and that's what i told him i said well if it's real it's wow if it's not real and it's just another guy trying to sell books so my boss found out where bob monroe lived which

wasn't an easy thing to do and it turned out he was not that far from where we live with us all within probably 100 miles of washington dc so anyway we went out to see him and i wanted to know is this guy nuts is he a hustler or what and i found that bob monroe was a really solid guy he had a personality and an attitude like an engineer and i work with engineers and physicists and scientists that's the whole group we were all uh you know analyzing foreign technology to see where its weak

point was and where you know what we could do to beat their their science and their technology how could we beat theirs and how could we keep ours from being beaten so that was kind of the work that i was in so we were all a bunch of scientists and techies in this in this particular place and bob had just built a lab and he didn't really know what he was going to do with it but he knew he had to study this phenomena because it just happened to him he didn't want it to happen

to him he struggled against it he went to see a psychiatrist the you know to help him get past it and after ever all of that failed he decided just to journal it which is what his book was his book was basically just his journal of his experiences so he wanted to put this on a map of real science of something real not just a crazy old man he wanted to validate it and that was his drive he was a wealthy guy he didn't have to sell books to make some extra money matter of fact

you know he was he was in the millionaire status which back in the 60s was a lot of money so he was a very wealthy guy lived on this big estate with a lake and horses uh running you know in the fields and that sort of thing tenant farmers farming it for him he was the gentleman farmer and it was uh he obviously didn't need to sell you know out-of-body books in order to make ends meet so i started working with bob monroe and bob monroe taught me to do what he did that was one

of my requirements i only worked there if he would train me to do what he did because if it's not your experience it's not your truth just studying bob monroe which would have been interesting was never going to be satisfying see i don't just study things and memorize them and learn them i have to no i have to do it from basic principles so i needed the basic principles so he agreed and myself and an engineer uh electrical engineer dennis menrik we started going out to see bob by 15 to 20 hours a week it

was like a halftime job you know it wasn't just a a minor interest this was something we dedicated ourselves to and within a year or so bob had taught both of us how to experience this larger reality and everything we did then was evidential because both dennis and i had this idea well if this turns out just to be a lot of hocus pocus then we're out of here you know we're not going to stay it needs to be serious so we needed to convince ourselves that this was something real and not just something in

the mind not just it happened you know like a dream or a daydream or something but it had to be something that was a real phenomena can you describe tom some of the experiments that you you did at the beginning uh to to to test this phenomena oh sure they were we did a lot of in remote viewing where we were given targets and were told to see what was at those targets and what was going on we did a lot of things like after we'd get locked in our isolation booths bob would go to

a blackboard and write a you know seven digit number or something on the board and we were to read it he would help us ask questions about sometimes about the nature of reality but sometimes about things that we could check you know to see what the actual answers were and we would get information and then we would check it and see was that information right you know did we get the numbers right did we remote view what was going on in that room you know what was what was happening and we would we would spend

hours like i say 15 20 hours a week with these exercises and the way we did it was that we were in isolation booths they were acoustically isolated then the one i was in was also electromagnetically isolated it was a faraday cage as well but it had lots of uh insulation for acoustic isolation so if dennis and i had screamed we would probably hear a little muffled sound you know through that insulation but just normal conversation would not have been audible at all it'd been way below below hearing and what it was we had a

microphone from the ceiling just above our lips and we were trained to do this out of body thing and tell bob what we were experiencing in a like a a flow of consciousness uh kind of way we would tell him what we were experiencing where we were going who we were talking to you know and he would sometimes give us questions to ask but he could that way he could teach us because he knew what we were experiencing otherwise it was very difficult to teach someone if they just go off and do it you come

back and you know you weren't with them how are you going to how you're going to teach it so that's that's the way we worked so dennis was in one booth there was an empty booth between us and and i was in the other booth so out of three booths we were on either ends of those three and one experiment in particular that was one that kind of finally got me to the point that i no longer asked the question is this real was one where bob had dennis and i go out of body together

meet up above the lab we were just leave our bodies go up above the lab meet and then go on some kind of an adventure together you know some kind of thing just explore the larger reality together and bob of course had a recording of what we were saying we were telling him stream of consciences everything that was going on and what we were doing and what we said and afterwards we got out of that it was about two hours usually these are about two hours that we were in the in the uh in the

room after the two hours we got out and and kind of stumbled our way down to the control room and bob had this big cassette tape thing of course that's part of the past right nobody does cassette tapes anymore but he had a he had a big reel to reel and a bunch of cassettes and he had our two voices that he had recorded from all the things he had asked and things that we had said and he rewound all of it and then he turned mine and dennis's on at the same time to synchronize

them in time and there was dennis and i having conversations asking each other questions oh do you see that sentence that's over there oh you mean the pointy yellow one that's that's next to the green one yes that's the one you know and we're we're well let's go explore that okay and we're having these kind of conversations and that after i listened to well i don't know the first 20 or 30 minutes of that my jaw kind of dropped down and i was like oh my god this stuff is real and i was kind of

in a haze for probably a couple of weeks after that with that understanding that this was real because up to that point i had done literally hundreds and hundreds of things that checked out as far as looking at the statistics you know could i have guessed that information that there was a pair of red high-heeled shoes sitting in the middle of a bed in this room could i have just guessed that you know that was the target somebody's bedroom and they'd put these red high heeled shoes on the bed so then you look at it

and they say well what do you what do you see and then you say well there's a pair of red shoes sitting in the middle of the bed now could i have just guessed that because i'm lucky you know no that's kind of one in a million to guess that so i had hundreds of those kinds of things that statistically were you know one in a million that i could have just guessed them that it was just random good luck but that intellectually i knew that it was real in that sense but were they alpha

numeric because obviously this is a story that uh listeners were also going to be covering the the story of the remote viewing which was happening almost at the same time and in fact one of the uh us army remote viewers went to visit bob monroe uh possibly you met mcgonagall while you were where you were working up there at the institute tom um but the big shall we say the holy grail of this kind of work is alpha neuron numeric so did you presumably immediately you wanted to find out if you could actually report numbers

or words um accurately out of body because that is the the gold standard now tommy excuse me a moment in our first episode of chasing consciousness the the famous skeptic philosopher and psychologist sue blackmore uh wonderful wonderful guest listeners she's coming back to talk about free will which may we may find actually uh sort of loops back to to our pan psychist and virtual reality conversations she spoke in the first episode beautiful story about her extraordinary obe in the 1970s but she explained that phenomena away just she said it's all been disproved it's just brain

science and physiology and she claimed that you know as as tom mentioned it's it's a bit of a misnomer but no perceiving consciousness has been proved to leave the body and that no one has succeeded in fulfilling her 40-year-old challenge of of those claiming to be out of body travelers to come and read some numbers and words that have been written above her fridge for over 40 years now tom if you were to do such an experiment and i'm sure you did did you get alphanumeric confirmation the holy grail of this stuff we did get

some confirmation that was alphanumeric but alphanumeric was a lot more difficult than were the let's say the red shoes than pictures it was a lot more difficult to do and i can logically explain why it's difficult it's not it's not that well if you're there and you can see then you can see numbers as well as that that's the idea that you are an intellectual person just in this other space and it works just like it does in in the physical world it doesn't work just like it does in a physical there's other things going

on so the numbers and and letters are more difficult things to put into a metaphor okay now in the intuitive world one speaks mostly in terms of metaphors in terms of patterns in terms of things that have to connect with your understanding okay so it can't be something that's not in your own experience base because then you wouldn't know how to interpret it but if it's within your experience space then you can interpret it reasonably well so that's the way it works now how do you interpret the metaphor of a series of numbers what metaphor

is there of a series of numbers mostly you see that's a harder thing to do because intuition is not the same as a logical process letters and numbers are logical process things okay we have a series we have an a a b a k a j and a nine and that's a thing now logically we process that that's an intellectual thing it's a strain type it's a construct right it's a different mental construct it's a very different type of mental construct and that is what your intellect does very well the intellect works with logical process

the intuition doesn't the intuition is holistic it's big picture it's metaphorical so it's just the nature you see it's the i what the mistake here is that it's somebody's intellect is moved from this world to some other world or some other space it's not like that you see there's two different ways that consciousness processes information or two different we can even say sources of information one of them is the intellectual side and that intellect uses a tool called logic and logic is a very precise thing deductive logic is very precise now the intellect works wonders

with that logic but for the most part it fails because it fails a lot because it doesn't have enough information in other words should i marry sally or should i marry sue i don't have enough information to come to a logical deductive answer to that there's just not enough information i don't i don't have the future in front of me to decide which is a better future for me that future will unravel however it does you see so the intellect is very limited that way so the intellect is a precise tool but it has very

ratty and incomplete information to work with now on the other side you have the intuitive side the intuitive side does not do logical process the intuitive side just knows it just gets the information and it knows that information it's not rational okay and it often gets metaphors it gets pictures it can sometimes get words sometimes but usually not so many words it gets it can get numbers and dates it tends to get alphanumerics i that's not even that hard to remote view but it's to get a lot of it in detail is just more difficult

how do you tweak your experiments to try and sort the wheat from the chaff there because presumably it took you a while when you started studying with to kind of to design the experiment correctly to try and find the limit between the two oh it did it took me like 35 years of experimenting bob monroe taught me how to get in to my consciousness what other people call out of body how to become aware inside of my consciousness okay now again the model is i am consciousness and you know i'm not in a body i'm

just conscious just playing an avatar that's the body so if you have that model and we can get around to justifying that later but if you have that model then bob monroe allowed me to at that time of course he and i both were calling it out of body to go out of body and in that state i could repeat that i could repeat that altered state of consciousness very precisely i would do it and do it and do it to where i could get to the exact same place you know day after day time

after time that allowed me enough um what shall i say stability to actually do research there i was doing things that were evidential the evidential things like seeing the red shoes you know i was doing things that were evidential so i could change a variable change a variable then see if i was just as good at finding the red shoes then change another variable then change the variable some more keep these constant you know let that one change just science that's the way science is done science is a very tedious relentless kind of a process

of developing things from first principles that's what science is all about so for 35 years i am hours you know 15 20 hours a week i'm putting into checking variables what does what am i good at remote viewing when i approach it this way or does that not make any difference or does that actually help so you just go you just have to do it thousands of times different ways different approaches different ideas and eventually i ended up with a rough understanding of how consciousness worked the things it could do the things it couldn't do

why it couldn't do the things it couldn't do why it could do the things it could and why did it sometimes get it right and sometimes get it wrong and i kind of understood why what those variables were so that's when i sat down to write my big toe it was really a theory of consciousness is what it amounted to and since consciousness was fundamental i called it a theory of everything but at that point i didn't really understand how the physics could be derived from it when i it was not until a couple of

years after i published those books that it really came to me how i could derive modern physics how i could derive quantum physics and how i could derive relativity from first principles not from not from uh what the a belief in the fact you know or uh or a fact that nobody understood like why is c a constant why is the speed of light a constant or why do particles best be modeled by probability distributions you see those were those were things that people made up because they work but they didn't understand why it had

to be that way and i did i realized that i could i could do that so yes it took me time 35 years of doing research in consciousness to see what worked and what didn't and yes slowly coming to a conclusion of well let me put it this way i wanted to come up with a model that would explain all the facts now i had this collection of facts in consciousness one of them is consciousness fundamental well that's a fact i can change i can affect things in the physical from consciousness but i can't affect

things in consciousness from the physical so the arrow of causality only travels one direction and that's from consciousness to the to the physical that makes consciousness fundamental and the physical derivative of consciousness so these are the facts i had so i had a bunch of consciousness facts i had a bunch of physical material facts because i'm a physicist and that's what we do we learn material facts and i wanted to come with a set of concepts that would explain both and that's basically what the my big toe is now it's a it's a set of

of understandings of the nature of reality that explains both the objective world and the subjective world physics fans do please stick around because after the break we're going to be coming back and we're going to be getting deeply into tom's theory and how he's made all of these problems in modern physics that really have been causing so much uh confusion amongst modern physicists quantum physicists uh and cosmologists as well but just before the break before we get into that tom i've got to ask you you've taught now thousands of people this technique you've been a

trainer for many many years presumably you've heard among your own experiences some some as well as those some extraordinary stories tell us a couple but you know we're on the show as we go further into the next series we're going to be getting more into interdimensional phenomena as well um and i just think that there's a good chance that you've got a couple of stories up your sleeve that not only will blow the listeners minds but will also you know that prompted you to push you even harder to try and create a theory that could

take all of this into account can you tell us a few of the stories that really stood out and just said listen modern physics just just you know we do i have to completely reevaluate everything i've learned at university well yes i can i can tell you a few stories that just stood out but the reason they stood out is because they are so far out there they're so you know incredible but the sources are pretty solid i can i can tell you a couple of these but it's not going to make my uh my

credibility increase people will listen to those and they'll say well obviously this is nuts but here's one tom tom why a couple you know it's interesting a lot of the times when these reports come from military or intelligence or police uh people for some reason people to tend to take them more seriously so if they happen to be those rather than rather than just your average bloke walking down the street for some reason people take them down a bit more seriously perhaps if they're physicists that might help our audience as well okay well here's some

of the stranger things that i have heard and i do understand them and they do fall within them my big toe understanding so i can i can explain them but these are things that don't happen often these are things that are extremely rare but they do happen sometimes and one of the one course that i was giving this was in hawaii i was giving this course and i had a bunch of students there i can't remember maybe 50 people or so were there and these were people who were trying to understand experiences that they'd had

that's one of the reasons that people want to pursue what being um a student being a a um what do we call it a searcher a searcher for truth you know a searcher for meaning because they've had really unusual experiences and they know they're real because it happened to them but you know like me debugging the code you know they know it's real but they don't know why and it frightens them to some degree and sometimes they question their own sanity and and whatever and they're looking for answers so this one person this young lady

came to me at at uh probably about halfway through this these courses discussions lectures that i was giving in hawaii and she says i haven't i had an experience and i've told nobody about it she says i've never told a soul but i'm going to tell you because i think maybe you have a chance of understanding and at least i feel like you won't be judgmental and she said i was driving my car one day and it was around noon time just before lunch like 11 11 30 something like that and i'm in my car

and i'm driving it and it's a divided highway it came to a across across street that uh had a stop sign and just as i approached it this older couple in a large car went right through the stop sign and were coming out right in front of me and she knew that she had was going to hit them there was no way to stop they just pulled right out in front of her so she kind of braced for the collision saw the person's face saw the old man who was there who was looking at her

who suddenly realized that he'd gone through the the car was about to crash into the his door it was right the driver's doors where she was going to hit saw his face saw the horror on his face crack his pence for the crash saw a big flash of light and then she was on the other side of the car no crash had happened she looked in a rear view mirror and the the larger car the the old couple was in was finishing their turn and stopped in the intersection she was so shaken that she couldn't

drive so she pulled over one maybe about a half a quarter of a mile half a mile decided she was too shaky to drive pulled over to the side and just had to sit there for a while so she could gather herself and she said that happened of course my questions to her were did you sleep late did you just get up were you uh you know sleepy or tired were you alert had you been meditating um you know were you kind of your mind adrift and you weren't really paying attention to what was going

on in the in the street and she said no she said it was the middle of the day i hadn't just you know it was like 11 30 i was on my way someplace to meet somebody for lunch i was aware i was focused i was perfectly conscious it wasn't like i was dreamy or anything and you know this happened and all of it happened not like a dream it happened like i was aware of the whole thing my car passed through their car and as i passed through there was this bright light and all

i know is that it only took a few tenths of a second for the cars to pass through each other but when it was done i was on the other side of the road and they were still hole behind me and that's what happened and she says i've never told anybody because i know that they would think i was somehow making up making a joke you know you know was insane or something so she told me that that's a nice fascinating story and that was yeah you well you asked for a a strange story well

that's not a strange story it can go even stranger um i mean tom i have to say you were recommended by a friend of mine who um who you taught um and she herself uh has spoken about well i i know many of your participants have spoken about extraordinary experiences that they have out of body for one a bed of a word but you know i i'll just sort of allude to this story without giving all the details but basically she she uh when she was out of body had observed um some people having sex

and she was really enjoying it and she sort of suddenly caught herself and was like oh my god hang on a sec this is really not very fair of me to be observing them making love like this and i just said to my i just said as you do when you're doing this i want to be somewhere where it's really sexy and where it's really lovely and she found herself speaking to a higher being of some sort um somebody who we might call a tantric being of some sort very meditative very calm there was no

sex going on at all and she had a conversation about the very very deep nature of sex with this being i was more wondering if perhaps you had some stories of that kind of shall we say non-human entities or or higher beings of some sort have you had any experiences of that kind of oh sure you know now there you know there's hundreds of experience but you asked me for a strange experience one that was very unusual you just don't have the the understanding of what what goes for unusual in my mind now what you

just described her experience that's not that unusual at all non-human entities is is is as bizarre as uh something that transcends the laws of physics as we know them i mean certainly bad experience for for for a show that covers a lot of physics is definitely out there but i think i'm interested also in extra dimensional experience i think that's perhaps why i ask sure those kinds of things happen all the time matter of fact in the course i teach one of the one of the sections of that is communication communication with other uh entities

and these these other entities could be somebody that's embodied here but it could be somebody that's never been to this particular reality frame that we call our physical universe has never heard of this particular frame it could be somebody that is very knowledgeable very understanding has a great deal of wisdom and understanding as this this uh uh pantry person seems to have been it could be all sorts of things it can be from the frivolous to the extremely serious and important but connecting to other consciousnesses connecting to other beings is an is a simple thing

to do it's not a hard thing to do and typically you find out things that help you understand bigger pictures so this this person had in their mind i want to go do something sexy or see something good or what you know some something really cool i want to experience something unique and when you have that in your mind then the system supplies you with something like that and she got information that helped her understands things in a bigger picture so back to your question of what is out of body and now let me say

it in a way in my own in my own terminology out of body is a single player virtual reality game that's what out of body is and it's particularly created to help the individual grow and learn something see bigger pictures so she had an intent of something she was open to learning and maybe sexuality was something in her mind that kind of had a an edge to it and she wanted to know and understand more about that well then she gets this single player game where she meets this person they explain things to her she

witnesses the lovemaking and so on and she probably felt the rightness of it not the wrongness of it she probably felt the rightness of it and then she went on to get the bigger the bigger context in which you know sex can be seen so in any case that happens one last story an entity story that that perhaps you know we could say is the more the most out there that you've ever heard in terms of shall we say the communication of things that are outside necessarily of our field of traditional knowledge something that really

stood out for you well i've probably heard a couple of thousand of these kinds of stories it's not like one or two but probably thousands of these stories and i can tell you that many of them many of those thousands probably the great majority of those thousands were very significant to the individuals who had them they were many of them were life-changing many of them solved great difficulties and anxieties and issues that these people had they would resolve some of their own fears they would understand family dynamic dynamics better they would come to terms with

issues between them and their you know their brother or their sister who hadn't talked to each other you know for two decades things that were of great importance to them this this is typical this is everyday stuff so i get a group of uh 60 people and i would say out of those 60 people probably 30 or 40 of them will have these kinds of experiences so what about someone like you or i tom that we are shall we say obsessed with the nature of reality trying to get to the bottom of it what is

the most significant entity experience that you've heard perhaps one of your own if you're saying it's important the subjective experience to the individual where the nature of reality was exposed in a way that really really took you to the next level and perhaps gave you the insight necessary to come up with something as as as deep and all-encompassing as my big toe well let me just give you my own experience then um at um sometime around six seven years old i had entities come to me i'm i'm a little child now six or seven these

entities show up which is not uncommon for for uh children and um and they basically got me out of body took me out of body and there i was and and uh they kind of said well go play go play with it and i did i went out through the window and slipped out into the yard which was a little scary because now i was high in the air and then i went down to the ground and they said use your intent use your mind you can do what you go wherever you want with your

mind so i did and i played and i went up and down and threw the hedge over into my neighbor's yard and you know just kind of played with it for a while and then they brought me back and it was over then they came back like the next night and this was a series of things that happened to me when i was young and pretty soon after i kind of got used to that they were giving me training lessons look here's how you here's how you handle these things okay so here's here's a situation

use your intent to solve this problem use your intent to get from a to b because there's no physical way to get there so you have to do this with your mind so they started to teach me discipline with my mind to get my intent focused and to get it precise and to be able to hold it focused for long periods of time so i went through training courses and then um i was given tests of testing to see where i was as far as my fears my level of growth that sort of thing and

at the end of the tests you know i was evaluated and then i was given more training according to how i did in the test so i went through this yes that was very much my connection to non-physical beings and they did indeed help me to learn now very soon as i probably was maybe eight they told me that you have to stop doing this because we don't want you to grow up and be so weird that you don't fit in you don't develop well and you become you know kind of ruined by the fact

that nobody believes you etc etc you know they take you to a psychiatrist who gives you drugs you know we don't we want to avoid all that so we're going to stop it now and you'll get back to it later and it stopped i went to go out of body because they taught me how to do it myself again i'm one of those people even as a child that has to go from first principles and i said no i don't want you to get me out of body i want you to show me teach me

how i can do it myself they refused it first but i wouldn't let it go and eventually they relented and they taught me i got to the point where they shut me out locked the door and i could not get out anymore it wasn't until i was with bob monroe now 20 some years old you know 28 years old with bob monroe and he was telling me about a set of his experiences this happened it was a test that he was being given and i stopped him and said wait a minute and it all poured

back to me i had had that test already and i said okay and the next question was about this and his jaw dropped and he said how did you know were you there and i said no i've had this test before and the question after that was this and his jaw dropped further so we discussed it and we both bombed out at the same place we both got to the same point in this test and that was our last question and disappeared and that's either because you got it wrong because then the test is over

or it's because that you've got it right and then the test was complete and did you tell bob did you tell bob about your childhood experience yes i did then had he said no he was just having that same test then this was his first encounter with that particular test i had had that test when i was seven years old or eight years old it was part of my training okay so he was given that same test and i had learned and i've run into a dozen people since then who have had experiences tests if

you will that were precisely to the detail exactly the same that i've had which let me know that there are standardized tests you know out there that people get and why not if you're trying to test to see how you can train somebody better how you can educate them more then if you have a good test that works why not reuse it why have to come up with something different all the time so anyway then it all that door was unlocked so to speak and it all came back to me about those experiences i had

and and bob was flabbergasted and i was too because i knew this was experience he'd just had you know so this is now you know early 70s and bob had just had that the day the night before and he was telling me about it he shared his experiences with us dennis and i see this was before there was such a thing as monroe institute there was no mineral institute it's just dennis and i and a few others and and going out to his lab the monroe institute was an idea that only took place after we

found binaural beats and after we found you know that a whole lot of people wanted to be taught this is something we have to touch on briefly before the break because we didn't get there earlier the binaural beats which you developed in conjunction with tom uh sorry with um with the monroe institute tell us briefly about that technology and also is it required or can can this be done without it okay uh yes it can be done without it matter of fact eventually it should be done without it and yet how let me tell you

what binaural beats are and we'll we'll start there it was something that dennis mennorich menoric discovered in an old scientific american i think like 1965 or something version of scientific american that the author of the article was oster oster and i actually have a copy of that the dentist saved and sent to me anyway it said that they had done some research with binaural beats now that means you have a headset and it has two tones one in this ear one in that air so it's a stereo headset and as you know if you have

two frequencies that are close together you will get a beat frequency where the beat is the difference between the two bass frequencies for example 100 hertz in this ear 104 hertz in that ear well let's not put it in here let's put it in speakers you have a speaker here with 100 hertz and a speaker here with 104 hertz and if you play both those you will hear a four hertz beat that's because the waves go in and out of phase with each other at a four hertz frequency right okay so so you'll hear something

like that's four beats per second four hertz okay so that's a four hertz beat now if you do it in your ears what they found is if you put a pure tone in either ear and if you were careful not to have bone conduction and beats going on you know within the actual physical structure but just low volume just in the ears real padded earphones and you would be able to entrain brainwaves in other words brainwaves are it's a it's a scale let's say here's the here's the vertical axis there's a horizontal axis horizontal axis

has frequency vertical axis has energy power okay so your brain puts out all sorts of frequencies but it puts out more or less power in different frequencies so when we're in alpha that's relaxed most of the frequencies tend to center in around 10 hertz or so if we're sleeping they center down around two hertz down an adult area if we're meditating they center in around four hertz and by by centering what i mean is here's all this energy and all these frequencies but now they come to where they're now almost all just in this frequency

by centering the energy evolved the energy involved tends to move toward a particular frequency that's called in that's called frequency entrancing brainwave entrancing so it was the this article said that brain waves could be entranced by binaural beasts so we tried it at the lab dennis made a copy took it out there and gave us about four hertz because bob said that he vibrated at four hertz just before he'd go out of body that was in his books so this four hertz was a was kind of a fact of his so we wanted to duplicate

that and we saw in the lab we had gsrs on our fingers that was galvanic skin response measuring basically body's resistance to electrical current and we could see when we were in the lab that that galvanic skin response would sit here and do this at four hertz so we knew this four hertz was kind of a a thing we didn't know exactly why or what but when we saw that we said aha we're going to drive those brainwaves with four hertz just see what happens because we were cut and dry just experimentalists um trial and

error blundering our way through everything we could think of to see if we could come up with stuff that worked and this worked so dennis and i spent weeks then optimizing it what should the base frequencies be how much volume should it be what about the waveform does it work well with sine waves is what you typically get out of a generator but we found generators that would do square waves and sawtooth waves and all sorts of other things we created different wave shapes and after two or three weeks of spending a lot of time

in the lab we came up with something that was optimal and bob had been away during this time he was out at the big sur teaching courses out there to uh a group of people and he came back and we presented him with our findings and he was impressed as much as we were that was the beginning of the idea of monroe institute because suddenly we had technology that we could give to others and dennis and nancy lee dennis's stepdaughter and i spent the next couple of years as trainers flying around with this big audio

harness to people who would all lie down on the floor on air mattresses and have headsets on that would listen to these binaural beats and have all sorts of out of body you know experiences like the one that your your lady friend described where they would connect with people and go places and do things and gather information and it got to be very popular and at that point bob had the idea of monroe institute and a building and he sold his property bought new land built the institute you know but by that time dennis and

i had both kind of slipped out the back because we really wanted to do research not be trainers trainers were taking way too much time and it wasn't what we wanted to do so that was kind of when monroe institute and dennis and i sort of parted ways and and i was still a part of it i was on their board of board of directors or board of governors or whatever they called it for another decade or two after that until bob died i i was involved but not as an active participant in your opinion

do you think that the binaural aspect obviously it's quite useful for us for example on chasing consciousness as we're presenting this as a a scientific brain science based kind of uh entrance to this extraordinary phenomena how important do you think it is to the story of out of body in terms of shall we say offering a door to uh to those who think in terms of brain science to this phenomena well what it does is that it helps someone who is not a very experienced meditator get in the same kind of altered state of consciousness

as an experienced meditator if you take people who have been meditating well here's a good story to tell we had a group of about five buddhist monks that visit us at whisselfield farm which is where bob monroe lived at that time that's not tmi now that's that was where we were when we were doing this work that's where the lab was at whistlefield farm a different place so anyway these monks came through because they've heard of bob and and they just said can we come visit and they did and we said hey listen to our

stuff and tell us what you think and their general opinion was it took us a decade or more to get into that same space that your binaural beats put us in in two minutes we had to we had to work at it about a decade to get there so what that says is that the binaural beats can put you kind of leads you they don't force you they just lead you you have to cooperate with them you have to connect with them you you have to let go and be with them but they put you

in a in a an altered state of consciousness that is very similar to what experienced meditators learn to do we we know this from our western culture that when we do shortcuts uh you know psychedelic drugs is a good example of this we can have some issues with people potentially experiencing things that they're maybe not ready for did you come across some of those issues we did indeed um that is true now binaural beats are not as you know slam dunk as drugs are drugs are something a lot more forceful binaural beats are not that

forceful like i say you need to cooperate with them but yes we put literally hundreds of people through just listening to binaural beats people off the street our families our wives our children you know we brought them out there and these were all quote naive subjects who knew nothing about what to ex what the experience might be so we just said look just come in lie down we want to listen to these tones you can listen to them for a half an hour and then we're going to ask you how you felt that's all no

guidance whatsoever no guidance whatsoever totally people off the street had no idea what to experience and we did that like i say with hundreds of people that was us trying to decide whether the binaural beats worked with us because now we've been doing this for a long time we were you know different than just the average person off the street and we found that it affected almost everybody but it affected people differently some people would just lose consciousness and when the binaural beats over wake up some people would have very pleasant experiences go places do

things meet people you know and dream that's how they would experience oh i had all these dreams i had all these day dreams and were you asleep no i don't think so but i was dreaming you know i was dreaming while i was awake we'd get those kinds of of things and some people met up with you know had some very unpleasant experiences where mainly they connected with their own fears and it was terrifying what you do is you get acquainted with your own consciousness and if that consciousness is full of fear you'll get up

close and personal with that fear and that can be terrifying so some people had some some bad trips as well i could see the advantage of um not leading the subject as it were just giving it to them without any things but but in retrospect did you have some doubts about the the you know the ethics of of doing something like that you know maybe you know for example to children without any sort of sense of of what they might experience did you have any doubts in retrospect no well we had lots of doubts whether

or not the binaural beats actually would work for the general person you know just anybody out there or whether it was because we had by that time three or four years of training that it worked with us so we had we wanted to know and we weren't sure the binaural beats would work for other people that hadn't had our training so we just did it and as far as no i put my children in it dennis put his children in it because they weren't just tones it's not like we were giving them you know drugs

that were going to alter their biochemistry and they were things you had to cooperate with you could always pull the headset off you know if you felt bad just pull it off and it'd go away so it was it wasn't that threatening and we were both in our 20s and when you're in your 20s you are invincible and everybody else is too you know you don't think in terms like that you don't do that till you grow up a little more to where you start worrying about the effects in 20 sure let's go try it

so no we didn't really concern ourselves too much with that and we did we were careful in the sense that we kept monitors on people and they were right they could pull the headphones off at any time you know we could hear them if they shouted at us so we had mics we had in the in the room so if they started having a problem we would know about it so we were right there but no we didn't we didn't put a whole lot of uh thought about that it might be harmful because it seems

so innocuous just to have tones in your ear you know it just wasn't very invasive at all the children had lots of interesting experiences with it and i'd say that probably ninety percent of the people had an experience you know had experiences when they listened about ninety percent of the people because they came with it totally blank too they didn't have any attitudes for it or against it that just was listen and see what happened so if you do that then about 90 had something that was unusual that happened to them and often it was

just pictures and and colors and visions would come that kind of thing but many they'd connect with they have conversations they'd connect with non-physical entities uh whatever you see we had lots of various stories but we realized that it did affect almost everyone it did indeed move there we eventually got an eeg machine that we could track their eeg and it did that it actually moved that energy that was in all those frequencies started to lose leave the high the higher stuff and come down into the theta space and that is what happens when you

put an eeg on a on a monk that's been meditating for decades you'll see that when he's meditating most of his eeg is in the theater stage so it just artificially put people into a good meditative space that's really all it does it doesn't matter magic it doesn't make you go out of body it doesn't force you to do anything it just puts you in the same kind of altered state of consciousness as an experienced meditator well tom obviously this com this technology still exists and it's been more highly developed in the in the years

is it something you'd recommend to the listeners if they're interested in getting into this sort of stuff yeah if they are beginners and not really you know experienced meditators then the binaural beat is a good tool they help the beginner who doesn't have the skill to get into that theta state which is what is really productive that's the state you need to be in in order to explore your consciousness so in that way yes i'd recommend it now if you are a child and you learn with training wheels and now you grow up and you

still have the training wheels on you're never going to be a very good bike rider because you've got these little training wheels hanging on there so you can't corner you can't lean the bike there's just a lot of things you can't do on a bike because you still have these training wheels on it and the binaural beats are the same way these binaural beats will put you in that theta state and lock you into that data state period and that enables you to ride that bike and enables you to go experience what meditators can experience

but it also locks you in and limits how well you can function it doesn't give you all the freedom you need and i learned that only when i came back to the monroe institute once just to i think it was for a meeting of the board of directors and i was back there and the guy who was in charge of of kind of research then said tom we've got a new sound we got a better binaural beat we're doing i'd love for you to listen to it and tell me what you think so i got

in this i got in the booth i put on this thing and he said here it is you know i'm already i'm already attuned to that so much that within you know three seconds you know i'm humming along i'm in a really good day to stay and i said yeah it works really well it's a nice state so then this person told me he says you know i've been having i have some personal issues and i really need some help with could you you know go out of body and help me with these issues help

explain something to my partner who we're having these difficulties and so on and i can't i can't do it so i said sure no problem so i'm ready to launch off and there i go and uh like a big rubber band was hooked to me wham right back so i said hmm that's unusual let's go again and zoom off i go and right back and i said hey could you turn that sound off and just put on some pink noise or something uh something benign and he said well sure why and i said well just

do it and he did and zip i was gone and solved his problem he told me a couple of days later perfect thank you you know you really made all the difference in the world i appreciate your your help with that problem so that's when i realized that those binaural beats they help you in the beginning but they trap you at the same time so there is a downside to it so yes i'd recommend binaural beats to people who are not good at meditating but eventually you have to take them off where's the best place

to get this audio what do you recommend tom and we'll put it in the show notes you can get these if you go to mbt events www.mbteeevents.com and look for binaural beats and there'll be a set of 13 of them that covers all sorts of bass frequencies and different kinds of beats and they're structured in a in a way that uh helps people not drift off a lot of people will get in that state and they just drift off and lose consciousness you know it helps you stay so it's got a lot of structure in

them they're not just plain binaural beats they've got a lot of structure inside them and if we have time i can explain you what the structure is it's not like that's a secret ingredient or anything you know i can i can explain them and tom i think what we'll do now is we'll we'll take a little break listeners there's definitely going to be links to that in the show notes mostly because we're going to be coming back very shortly listeners all of you guys who've been following the physics shows you really must stick around for

the second part because we're really going to be going into the theory uh that tom has created this virtual reality theory uh in his books the my big toe books and most of all getting into how this can solve some of the biggest problems of physics so if you don't mind tom we're going to take a break and we're going to be right back with your with the physics part part two [Music] so tom welcome back listeners welcome back now tom ever since you've been practicing this technique uh the physicist in you has been trying

to understand the underlying physics and the consciousness science that could permit such a phenomenon and in 2003 your first version of this theory to include these phenomena came out in your three books um your my big toe books toe their meaning of referring of course to toe the theory of everything and and this theory of everything idea is more or less the holy grail of physics isn't it but a theory that can unite general relativity with quantum physics to include gravity as well just just to give the the listeners a basic idea can you lay

out the basic sort of tenets of your virtual reality theory sure um you know it would take to talk about it in detail would probably take us a couple of days you know when i give lectures usually they are you know three four days long you know that it takes before people really get a a good understanding of it so i i'm going to skip over the tops and if people think that that's a lack of logical continuity well it's because we just don't have time to derive everything here so let's just kind of start

at the beginning of um to lay out the the bare bones of the of the logic of mbt and how it leads to science so i i start with the idea that uh and i'll just hit the logical highlights i start with the idea that consciousness is fundamental so we just let's start there in my research in consciousness i realized that consciousness is really about information that consciousness is an information system now whether that's you're talking about your consciousness or what i call the larger consciousness system which is just a metaphor for source consciousness all

of consciousness so if this consciousness is information then we can say that consciousness the system the larger system is an information system if consciousness is an information system then consciousness evolves as all information systems do by lowering entropy since we're talking physics now i guess i don't have to explain entropy entropy is a measure of disorder okay so for example if you have an information system and all the bits are random you have maximum entropy high entropy if you take some of those bits and order them that creates information that order now creates information and

the entropy is now a little lower because now you have some order not just randomness now if those if that ordered if those ordered bits are given particular meanings maybe they're symbols for something you know maybe they're zeros and ones you know maybe they're numbers maybe they're letters of an alphabet uh you know if they if they mean something and can interact with each other then you lower entropy even more because now you have more order more structure so information systems evolve by lowering their entropy all right consciousness is an information system consciousness evolves by

lowering its entropy finding more order more structure so how does it do that well let's just start with the very simplest imaginable piece of consciousness that what we'll call like a consciousness cell just to use a a metaphor that would be something that would know that it could be in state a or state b it's aware of a difference and this way i'm that way it's just the difference i exist that's it's self-awareness but then i exist in this state or in that state that is the most rudimentary most simple unit of consciousness okay well

that's basically a one or a zero of this or that a binary okay now if you have a binary then you can have series of binaries i mean this state then that state and that state then this state and now you have ones and zeros which you can line up in a in a line so that's just simple consciousness consciousness wants to evolve has to evolve because if it doesn't if it d evolves then that means it loses structure in order and returns to randomness in which case you no longer have an information system because

there's no information it's all random so like the rest of us it's evolve or die you know you have to evolve or you dissipate you de-evolve and it's not long-term stable to stay somewhere in the middle typically the more you evolve the easier it is to evolve more and the more you de-evolve the easier it is to de-evolve more so because that's generally true then evolve or die is kind of the long-term prognosis for the system so it needs to evolve so what does it do it creates more content okay it creates patterns patterns of

ones and zeros and as i'm saying ones and zeros it could be this or that's you know whatever just binary so it creates patterns and it gives those patterns meaning and then it can create patterns of patterns and patterns that depend on other patterns and it can get more and more complex lower and lower entropy and it's evolving okay then it comes up with a new technology because it kind of gets stuck on patterns and patterns there's only so much of that you can do and it comes up with a whole new technology and that

is it can take one of those this and that's ones and zeroes and just oscillate it one zero one zero you know this that this that this that and it just created a clock it's created regular time now time is always there is kind of primordial time because time came in with our definition of consciousness existing because if it could say this state or that state now it's this now it's that but time right there's change change defines time so when i make when i start this this uh logical process with the assumption that consciousness

exists and consciousness is a thing that can can decide whether it's in this state or that state time then comes in with it because an ability to change requires time but that's not orderly time that's not regular time regular time is when it produces a little metronome which gets two of its little binaries just oscillating one after the other regularly now it has a metronome a clock now it has a much larger set of possibilities for order and for creating structure because now it can have sequences of patterns of patterns of sequences you see it's

got another whole dimension in which it can construct and create order now it can create order in time as well it couldn't until it had regular time all right so that time regular time is a technology that it invented in its need to evolve that it gives it more possibilities more states it can evolve into which means more complexity lower entropy okay and it does that for a while until again its growth becomes slower and slower because it's one monolithic thing just one monolithic thing and one monolithic thing is very limited into what it can

do it's it's it's limited just to its own its own mind if you i say it's its own senses its own thoughts one monolithic chunk of consciousness yes lots of patterns lots of sequences but what it needs to do is interact with another consciousness it needs to like cells did you see when when the world was nothing but single sailed things i mean the biology world was nothing but single-celled things it was very limited in what it could do but then it found multiple cell things cells divided work together cooperated and when you cooperate you

can do a lot more than you can by yourself so in the cellular world we had multi-celled things which then became things that had uh uh organs things that had cell differentiation the cells began to specialize you know some were some were heart some were livers you know some were the locomotion some were digestion some were were defense so they had all different functions of cells that's the next higher level well that's more complication that's lower entropy that's more organization organization and cooperation cells working together so this monolithic consciousness then needed to split a part

of itself off and interact with that part but now let's talk about free will free will is basically the ability to have a choice if you don't have free will you have no choice you only have choice if you have free will everything else is determined if it's determined if there's no free will then it's determined if it's determined there's no choice it's determined you see so because it could say because it was consciousness it could say this way or that way therefore it had choice so not only does time come in with this assumption

that consciousness exists but free will comes in with this assumption that consciousness exists there's choice so it splits off a part of itself and it gives that self free will so they both have free will because otherwise it would just be talking to itself again and it wouldn't have accomplished anything you know if it didn't if they both if it if the part didn't have free will then it hadn't accomplished anything it's still just one monolithic thing so it has this this free will and it makes a bunch of those parts now suddenly again the

potential possibilities go way up because what can all of these pieces of consciousness each with its own experience and its own free will what can they do together cooperate what can they build what can they become together and suddenly the possibilities go way up you see now you've got if you've got 10 of these then you've got 10 variables well anything with 10 variables has a whole lot more possibilities than something that just has one variable or two variables that's just simple you know number theory so its evolution just as cellular evolution did drove it

to multi multi-uh chunks of consciousness i call those individuated units of consciousness now are these things separate like a here's the conscious system and over here is the individuated unit of consciousness no it's just a subset it's just a subset within that consciousness system a piece of that consciousness system that has been partitioned off and given its own processing memory you know ability to function as consciousness so in any case it's just a subset you might call that if you're into computer science you call that a virtual machine you know whereas a computer can create

another computer inside of itself and they call it a virtual machine so that's what these individuated units of consciousness are they're subsets of this larger consciousness system all right so it does that and now it has all this new potential to expand into what can they become together how can they interact what can they come up with and we now have us you and i and all the other people out there listening are all individuated units of consciousness that's who we are we're these pieces of consciousness now what do we do what's our point our

point is to evolve that's what you know we're consciousness we're an information system we need to evolve so how do we evolve well now you have all these individual individual units of consciousness you have a social system an interactive social system with a lot of conscious pieces interacting with each other and inside a social system the way you minimize entropy the way you reduce entropy the way you evolve which is now our our our reason for existing right is to evolve otherwise you de-evolve and die so this is our our motive force our drivers to

is to evolve okay so now you have all these this these pieces that are form a social system if you have a social system the way to evolve the lower entropy is through cooperation collaboration yeah collaboration cooperation sharing caring this concept of uh sort of user theory sort of again we're using the computer analogy here so we've got a user and they are interacting across uh an unchanging thing which would be the the sort of the game map as it were which has fixed more or less fixed rules but your your theory says that they

are interacting with let's say the computer for now for want of a better word they're interacting with the computer and the computer is responding to their intentions and to their choices can you speak a little bit more about that because right the the the idea that the universe is interacting with our consciousness is something quite hard to get our heads around when we start to get into pan psychism talk a little bit about that in what way does the universe the computer the uh interact across this this fixed game map i was just headed in

that direction okay so we will just we just continue to go on down that line that's where i'm going all right so now we have the consciousness system we have the purpose for the constitution system is to evolve and that evolution requires us to be caring okay now the system which is everything which is all conscious we're a piece of that system okay the system wants to evolve that's its drive and us we just are kind of like in a big chat room we interact with each other consciousness communicates that's what it does it's information

it's an information system so what do these individual units of conscious do they chat they talk to each other they communicate that's what they do now at this point there is no virtual reality other than the fact that we have communication protocols communication protocols are a rule set and that rule set then creates the kind of the the basic virtual reality of a big chat room and overall multi-user a multi-user big chat room okay so that's it so then the system finds that okay that's nice but again the rate of entropy reduction starts to decrease

because it's just a big chat room the you know how much how can you organize that to be lower and lower entropy nobody's really learning a whole lot about caring and giving and sharing because it's just a bunch of individuals in the chat room there's no penalty for lying there's no penalty there's no award for telling the truth it's just chat room people are interacting however they do what's needed is something that creates more um meaningful choices besides just what to respond and what to say more meaningful choices we need choices with consequences choices that

allow us to to express our degree of sharing and caring or not you see so then the system decides in order to again improve its evolution it needs to create a better tighter rule set that creates situations where the choices have consequences so it needs to create a virtual reality another virtuality besides just the big chat room so how does it do that well it does it the same way that our computer scientists here today create little virtual realities it starts with an initial conditions and a rule set and when you punch the run button

those initial conditions change according to the rules and then you just let that evolve so you evolve a reality with rules that's all a virtual reality is it's a rule set and everything within it has to follow those rules and what's in it is depending on what you start with in your initial conditions so now for this reality it starts with a ball of plasma very high energy very high temperature all in one little tiny spot and it has rule set which is what we call physics rules punch the run button and that ball of

plasmid expands and it cools as it expands according to the rule set and we end up with the big bang that is now the big digital bang and it creates it evolves this particular virtual reality that we call the physical universe so that's a virtual reality it's not programmed it is evolved now here's an interesting thing obviously it couldn't come up with this rule set and this and this initial conditions just right out of the sky it obviously started somewhere and you know big big digital bang take one oh that didn't last very long before

it blew up okay let's change the parameters and turn gravity up a little bit and turn this other thing down and and okay virtual big bang take two and uh that lasted a little better but it still wasn't very good and so on and maybe it's big bang take ten thousand you know and it goes as long as it does and as it does it is tuning its initial conditions and its rule sets so that it gets something that will last longer and longer and be functional because eventually it wants to evolve something that creates

avatars that consciousness can log on to and play and make more meaningful decisions and choices because that's fine-tuned for life uh-huh yes a very thing that we physicists have found there is this bunch of of um fundamental constants you know the gravitational constant is one there's many others but there's i shouldn't say manny there's just a few of these numbers and we know that if any one of these fundamental constants were to change even in the eighth or ninth decimal place the universe would not be here it wouldn't be stable and physicists have looked at

this and they call it the i think the anthropic principle or something like that it's uh because it seems like it's a universe tuned just for us well yes it was and that's why we have these set of constants that we have found that are tuned right down to the the tiniest point because only does that give us something that is stable long enough to be of use so that explains that particular mystery why do we end up with a universe that uh has all these finely refined constants how could that just happen randomly oh

it was just random we ended up with five constants today decimal places that just happen to all work together otherwise we wouldn't exist i've got a bit about the user i've got the bit about the uh the set of rules so the map but what i don't understand is the third element which is the computer which is able to interact with ourselves okay so let's let's get to that next and that is that because we're all part of the same thing we're all consciousness we're just subsets of the same thing and now because we have

this virtual reality where consciousness can log on to these avatars and now they are making choices that are life-and-death choices choices that we call moral and ethical choices choices that really have impact choices that matter okay that gives now consciousness a huge learning condition where we have real choices not just this little bantering around in a big chat room evolution is very slow there but now evolution in this this game where you have to make choices to the side of fear to the side of love and those choices have ramifications okay so it's a feedback

if you make poor choices you know you have a poor outcome you have pain you make good choices and things work out better so this is a this is a schoolhouse now the consciousness system wants to evolve and we we individuated units of consciousness are part of its strategy for its own evolution right that's why it made us in the first place as we evolve it evolves because we're it we're part of it so it's not like we are separate things and we evolve and it doesn't as we evolve it evolves so if you lower

the entropy of your consciousness a little bit well the whole system has had its kind its entropy lowered by that little bit because you're a part of it so the system wants us to succeed because our success is its success so it is motivated to be helpful it's motivated to create structures to create this virtual reality to help us evolve the quality of our consciousness evolve toward becoming love to lower entropy so that's why the system interacts with connects to and actually tries to help the individuals is because it's helping itself it's all part of

one thing and as we succeed it succeeds so if it can build a better virtual reality if it can build if it can come connect to us while we're in that intuitive side and we can connect with it it may give us information like your friend there about the you know the the bigger picture of tantric um you know love and sex and that'll help that person grow up some well that's to the system's advantage because if that person then grows up and has a bigger picture ah entropy decreases the system wins so the system

wants to help us so now that puts us into this this idea that we live in a virtual reality not a program virtuality but an evolved virtual reality okay and now i will say some few things that will kind of give us a that'll kind of set the stage when we work into science from here and where that where that leads and that is that all right let's look for all virtual realities are basically work the same way okay virtual reality is a is a thing and it's got its own set of attributes the way

it works and here's the way it works and think about a game because we're all really familiar with virtual reality games so let's talk about an old game because i'm old and that's the one i mostly relate to because it's one my kids played i was i was already past the game playing age by the time computers got to the point that they had interesting games so i watched my children know play this game called world of warcraft you know and it had barbarians and elves and magic users and all those usual kinds of things

and mostly what they did is run around and fight each other and they had quests to go on where they had to beat the bad evil boss and they had to cooperate in order to do that with other players so anyway there's this game so now if you think about that game and think about how virtual reality works okay let's pretend that you're in the world of warcraft and you are an elf okay you're an elf now are you going to be able to find the server that's serving up this game no the server that's

serving the game has to exist outside of the game the server can't be part of the virtual reality it has to be outside the virtual reality in other words the server has to be non-physical from the viewpoint of the elf all right now virtual realities all have just two elements really that are functional and then a third element that's virtual and that is they have a server a player and then the virtual reality the only two things that are real are the server and the player so the player is the one that makes choices for

the avatar now your elf is your avatar you're the player you're sitting at a computer you're looking at a computer screen a computer screen is just a million dots of light and you interpret those dots of light into you know rivers and streams and woods and people and monsters and whatever else is there and you and the computer you the player in the computer are trading information you say computer i want my elf to run away he's about to get killed so you tell that the computer the computer shows your little picture of your elf

running away and has to compute the consequences of that act what does that running away do how does that interact with the other players according to the rules all right so it does that computation and it sends you that picture of your elf running away and you go aha that's good okay now computer i'd like to stop and turn around and the computer does it so this is just this dialogue really between the player and the computer now from the elves viewpoint can he find the player inside the virtual reality is there some something in

there that's making those choices he thinks he's making all his own choices but we know that that elf is just a virtual health it's just eye candy for the player to look at to see what's going on that the choices are all made by the player and that the player is non-physical to the elf the player cannot be in the elf's reality okay now we also know that the computer and the player have to be in the same reality frame because they're in constant communication you can't do that across reality firms so the computer and

the player are in the same reality frame well we know that right that all makes perfect sense for a game but that is the nature of virtual reality our virtuality is no different so what does that mean to us that means we this this body this body is like the elf it's the avatar so really i guess it's really important to remember that these are all analogies this is a philosophical philosophical problem we come across often when we're dealing with words and we exactly we don't really have any testable scientific method to look beyond this

veil as it were to sort of understand what kind of level of bio consciousness tech we're really dealing with you've argued that your theories can be tested can you explain how you think we can actually test this in a scientifically rigorous way well yes that can be tested to some extent um and i have some experiments that are in your quantum physics experiments going on to to do that testing so we've established the fact that you know here we are and our choices are all being made by consciousness so i agree to make that one

last that observation then that you are not your body you are an individuated unit of consciousness making choices for an avatar your body is an avatar you're getting a data stream you interpret that data stream as this reality okay that's how you interpret it you get a bunch of data you interpret just like all the dots on your screen your interpreters this reality you send data back so that's what's going on so we are not bodies we're consciousness our bodies are avatars that's the way virtual realities work so if this is a virtual reality then

that just has to be the way that it works now one other point and that is and this will get us toward testing i'm working i'm working on it we're going in that direction so the another fact about virtual realities is is that the virtual reality exists only in the minds of the players there really is no place where elves and barbarians are running around fighting with each other that doesn't exist it only exists in the minds of the players for something to come into that virtual reality data has to be given to a player

right so suddenly a dog wanders into you know the site of my battle where i'm working that dog has to be data given to a player and i'm the player i see the dog then there it is now because it's a multiplayer game if i see it then everybody else looking at that place has to see it too so if i get the data then maybe five people have to get that same data so that's because it's a multiplayer game but in order for something to exist in the virtual reality some player needs the data

now that is why that is the answer or that is the solution to the thing called the observer paradox why is it in quantum physics that when that they say that there's this this probabilistic wave function right we have a probability wave function in quantum physics and that probability wave function collapses to a physical result when the measurements made all right now that is the thing that trips up scientists they say what is that why you know why is it that reality should be non-physical should be just proto-particles they're not real particles not until we

make a measurement when we make a measurement ah there we get the real particle so the particle at the measurement becomes a real particle real for us means it comes into our virtual reality all right the only way to get something in our virtual reality is if the data goes to a player if you interact yeah if you interact with it because the virtual reality only exists in the minds of the players so it only exists in the minds of the individuated units of consciousness who are playing this particular game so why in quantum physics

do we need an observer to collapse the wave function to a physical particle because that's the only way anything can come in to the virtual reality is through the mind of a player if it doesn't get to the mind of the player it's not in the virtual reality you see so right away bingo we've answered that big question what is it about this collapse of the wave function that creates a physical particle well there is no wave function and there is no collapse what you have is information regarding a particular thing comes in to the

mind of the player that creates the particle the virtual particle in the virtual reality becomes real to the players you know to the you know in the virtual reality just like the elf becomes real to the player that virtual particle becomes real inside that virtual reality a piece of that virtual reality because it's gone into the mind of the player which is consciousness but that makes perfect sense as an explanation and i'm sure we're going to see many more examples of this as we get into entanglement and we get into gravity and all of these

other examples but can we solve planck's you know famous problem that you can't get behind consciousness how do we test to get to the level up i mean it seems a philosophical impossibility but but you you think you've got a way well there there is well let's put it this way there is a way to test it up to certain points but you're right there is a philosophical impossibility of going past a certain point in other words okay we're consciousness and we get data and that data we look at it interpret it as our reality

but we can never actually see the source of the data or connect to it you know it was impossible for us to to to let's say measure the source of the data we just get data and that creates our reality here the source of the data we don't know and there's actually three sources of data that we could get there's only three sources of data that could come to us one it comes from the larger consciousness system two it comes from some other individuated unit of consciousness because consciousness to consciousness you know we're all netted

all consciousness is netted and third we can create it ourselves we call that imagination but we can create data and when we get some data we don't know for sure and there's no way to know for sure whether that data came from the system some other iuoc or we made it up but that's for sure i'm saying without a without any doubt you know 100 we know for sure absolutely measured no now we can you know everything in life that's important isn't necessarily for sure or not there's a lot of things that have to do

with probability and experience you see uh you have to you have to learn to live gracefully with uncertainty absolutely so now you can with with time you can get to a point where you are reasonably sure never perfectly sure of where that's coming from but that takes experience if you have experience you can tell there's a difference a subtle difference between the kind of messages that come from a or b or c they're a little different in their coloration they're a little bit different in their tone and you can tell that difference but that takes

experience but do you ever know for sure are you ever 100 positive no never will you be no never because that's the nature of consciousness in how we interact we send data we receive data we interpret data okay that's how we interact the source of the data we don't see we just see the information we communicate we send information to another consciousness they get the information they don't see us they don't say oh look there's a there's a thing over there and it just sent me something they just get information and they have to interpret

that information now in a in a big chat room that's why you don't get a lot of traction there you're just sending and receiving information there's not a lot going on so the system says we need to speed up this this evolution thing let's build a a place that has things that you do see you know let's build a virtual reality this big let's not build it by computing it let's you know evolve it and now we have choices and we do see what's going on there's a bear over there and the bears hungry and

it's going to chase me and i see all that okay i see the cause and effect and the problems and things i have to solve and what i have to do and all of that now becomes a much better place to learn how to grow up how to lower your entropy but because it is that you will never know exactly what or where that server is so this two kind of two-way responsive interaction with the universe it could be compared to something which cover we're covering on the show because i'm a big fan of them

let me let me jump in here you said the universe it's not the universe the universe is this physical virtual reality we call the universe this is something much bigger than the universe the universe is just one virtual reality among many virtual realities that are going on so when we say universe i know you mean that to be the biggest thing out there but universe is really a more technical specific term that is this physical virtual reality so i just want to point out when you say universe what you mean is not this physical virtuality

you mean source absolutely a very very important very important distinction tom and thanks for picking up on that because because like you said what we thought we're talking about here in fact is is the computer you know for want of a bit of analogy which is which is the server on the other side but this kind of two-way interaction um really reminds me in your theory of something that carl jung talks about and something we're going to be covering on the show and we've got some excellent shows on carl jung's ideas so listeners do go

and check them out and he spoke about interacting with the symbolic field of the collective unconscious and he was he developed a technique called active imagination which sounds very much like one of these three ways of receiving and sending data that you were speaking about and he was talking about interacting with that symbolic field using active imagination now that sort of thinking could lead to a philosophical argument for the existence of god you know what what in philosophy we call it the argument by design saying you know this is such a an extraordinarily perfect design

it must mean that god exists now where do you find the evidence of your experience because these theories are very much based on your very very broad experience through your your studying consciousness where do you find those leading you in terms of your beliefs very very personal beliefs not necessarily scientific beliefs you said at the beginning you tend to try and keep away from isms or fixed beliefs if we think about one level of existence up um you know the server if you like do you think we're dealing with a sort of very brilliant hacker

running a simulation or do you do your beliefs take you more towards a kind of omnipotent kind of single consciousness idea very good question let me start with i try very hard never to have any beliefs whatsoever and i don't really have beliefs what i have is a model that i've made that best explains my experience and yes it's my personal experience that that's being explained so but how do i how do i see the big the big picture i see that what people generally call god you know has certain attributes that the larger cancer

system does not have but it has a lot of attributes that it does have so let me just separate those a little bit matter of fact i had two phds in theology on a stage with me at a talk that i was giving and i asked them i said you two theologists tell me what are the attributes of god now this was in a this was taking place in a unity church i was using their facility and that's where these two theologians came from so you know they're not full of the dogma that i guess

is typical in in many churches so they thought about it and they came out with a list of maybe six or seven things that they thought were the attributes of god and all of them turned out to be attributes of the larger consciousness system so i thought that was interesting but then what is different about the larger conscious system one it's not a what's the word um it's not extraordinary but what's the word um not complete it's not perfect yeah well it's not complete it's not perfect it's not it's not you know it doesn't know

everything of every detail it is still it's not done it's still in the process of evolving it's growing it's becoming as are we it's um not infinite it's finite anything real has to be finite consciousness is a real thing it's finite cannot be real so i mean it's finite it has to be that to be real okay infinite things are just abstractions you know you never get to infinity infinity is not something that's possible to to be if it's if it's something real so it's not perfect it's not infinite it's not uh knowing though it

can know pretty much all because it's consciousness and everything else is consciousness so it's basically all part of itself so it knows a lot so that's different it's not it's not paranormal what is it you call about deities they are super normal no omnipotent omnipotent was the word i was thinking of because i studied theology as well and i always found this this idea really in conflict supernatural okay supernatural yeah supernatural is the word i'm looking for the larger cancer system is not supernatural it is a natural system it's just a natural system that is

evolving and growing just like any natural system it's just consciousness so i see it that way so yes many people now i have people that are that are very uh very gung-ho on on my theory my big toe some of them are very religious a few of them not many some of them are very religious and they see the larger conscious system as their god they throw away the dogma about it being perfect and infinite and all that stuff they say and that's not important what's important is about the love thing and about the caring

and that's what's important so we have those but mostly religions are kind of crossways with my theory because they do have this this this god that is not just a normal system that is evolving so that's a big difference so yes i say that the larger conscious system and again this is a metaphor when i say larger cancer system that's a metaphor for source the source that we can never really see and shake hands with because we just get information that's the nature of consciousness you see besides there's a there's a philosophical problem with sources

you never can have information of your source that's first hand the source happens and then you're a part of it we're a piece a piece of consciousness we cannot get outside of consciousness to look back and see consciousness evolving you see from nothing well i don't think it evolved from nothing i think there's there's two there's a confluence between cellular automata and and another science and other mathematics that says that if you have potential and you wait long enough you can create you know things can can can be stimulated and creates just naturally out of

out of potential and i got a name for that what is that called um emergent complexity exactly it's called emergent complexity but it is an intellectual system but it is a natural system it is finite therefore we could say because obviously there's the sort of worlds within worlds idea we could say that one level up that finite system that created that virtual reality is finite but i mean it doesn't necessarily exclude that further levels up there isn't something god or whatever we just really have absolutely no access to that exactly but now here is another

thing if you look at this as a as a virtual reality and you can say all right this consciousness is maybe just a subset of something larger which is maybe a subset of something larger dot dot you know goes on forever right there's yeah there's there's no end to that but that is not really the case because from a computer science standpoint you know that having a virtual reality inside of virtual reality is not real efficient and then having a virtual reality inside of a virtual reality inside of virtual reality is even less efficient because

everything that goes to that let's say that third one down has to run through the first has to run through the second which then creates the third and now a a failure in one or two will completely destroy three you see it's it's a much more fragile much more overhead much more difficult it's so much easier to just have three independent virtual realities each one with a server that's robust and that makes sense so yes theoretically they could be nested but also when we understand computer science we say that nesting can't run very deep it

doesn't go on to an infinite series it probably couldn't run more than a couple of levels deep before it becomes bad design it becomes lousy computer science it's fragile and inefficient and i think one of my assumptions is is that the system is efficient because efficient is low entropy exactly inefficient is high entropy so it's a very efficient system and it would not just uh be like a venn diagram with with you know more pieces inside and inside and inside that would not be efficient much more logical to be many uh virtual realities running in

the same system exactly and i've seen that i've been to many virtual realities within the same system i've explored them i've been there so i see that there are many virtual realities in the system so we don't we don't have time to talk about all of your experiences there do what does one of your books contain some of these realities that you've presumably been mapping over the years um no i don't talk too much about that and i didn't say much of that in my book and there's a reason please do tom please write about

these these realities because people will want to to to know before you move on they will want to find out about your experience i know i have been told by a hundred people the very same thing you need to write about this bob monroe wrote about his experiences and of course you know you have things you have things like that my experiences are are some were similar to bob's but many are very different than bob's but here's the thing the whole point of our being here is to evolve it's to grow that is to be

caring be cooperative share not be self-centered not be fearful that's the point that's why we're here now getting my experience isn't going to help you grow at all and in fact it could actually hinder you growing in some ways and those ways are that you become if you listen to my story and you don't have any personal experience then you only have three choices you can believe it choice one and that's a belief bad choice you can disbelieve it another belief another bad choice you can put it on a thing say well maybe but the

well maybe doesn't help you grow up any none of that helps you grow up so what it is is you remember back some years back there was this this i don't know if it happened where you live or not but in my in my world there was posters billboards and things that said an inquiring mind wants to know and it was for it was about educating people who otherwise wouldn't get a good education well i just change that around and say inquiring egos would want to know and that's what it is people are curious but

that curiosity is not profitable and if you make the mistake of believing what i tell you now when you have your own experience and you interpret it differently than i do you might reject it because no that's not what tom said because you will have your own interpretation based on your own history your own beliefs your own set of experiences you see so i don't want to i don't want to prejudice you i want you to be open to whatever you get and if it's not your experience it's not your truth i think it makes

perfect perfect sense tom and i think it's a beautiful way you've expressed that and i think the fact that you're putting all of your energies into leading people to open that door to their own and making their own sense out of it means means an awful lot now tom if you don't mind with the remaining time we've got i want to get back to physics because there's a few things that i think can be really brilliantly explained uh some of them we've covered on the show already others we are going to cover um you talk

about some of these really really famously problematic phenomena particularly um action at a distance which we see in entanglement but also we see with gravity but a lot of people forget that gravity itself is is his spooky action at a distance maximum speed the speed of light so einstein we've got paul davies in this series going to speak about some of the implications of einstein's work you've got chaos theory itself which is a very interesting interplay between entropy and lack of entropy uh and obviously the big one which is quantum mechanics uh which is you

know notoriously difficult to reconcile with with the the classical world let's go through a few of these with the time we've got left let's start with the action at the distance how can my big toe give us an insight into why spooky action at distance isn't that spooky after all well there is no there is no action at a distance it's very simple let's just take the very simple idea of an electric field all right we have an electric field here well you see my hand here's a charge positive charge over here's a charge that's

another positive charge what do we know is going to happen this two charges will repel each other right so if this one over here is fixed this one will go away because there are two positive charges now if this charge is sitting here and this charge isn't and suddenly this one exists it takes just a tiny little bit of time before this one goes away because it takes a little time for that field to go from here over to there right and it goes at the speed of light and then this one moves all right

now so that's action at a distance and we explain that accid action at a distance is that there's this field that goes from here to there and that field creates a force okay now that field isn't real that feel doesn't exist that field is mathematics mental consciousness that field is just a mental construct it's mathematics and it makes materialists feel better because it gives them a reason why that other thing goes away and in the early days of field theory the physicists who were there first said oh that doesn't make any sense you know it

doesn't make any sense at all so how does it actually work this is a virtual reality it's computed when this thing shows up and this other one's up here the system says let's wait for a very small amount of time to give it the amount of time that would have to travel at the fastest that things could travel in this virtual reality and then we'll draw this moving away in other words it's computed and done so if we're back in world of warcraft and they have a a science uh section then our elf could go

in there and he could he he could have a charge here and he could have a charge here and he'll put in his charge and the other charge would go away just like the elf goes under water too long he drowns is that because else have lungs and else need oxygen no it's in the rule set the elf drowns if he stands under water it's in the rule set that when this charge appears the other one moves away it's just the way the rule set work how does the rule set work that way mathematics that

brings us on to maximum speed and einstein's uh theoretical maximum like that we can't get past the speed of light is that the case is that one of the rules yeah that's one of the rules and why wouldn't why would the system say well let's wait for a short time and then let this one move away well because if you have a virtual reality every virtual reality including world of warcraft has a maximum speed right it has pixels and the fastest the the the quickest that anything can move as fast as you can go in

any virtual reality is one pixel the distance for every pixel of time now you always have pixels of time because it's a dynamic simulation it's a computed world computed worlds that are dynamic means things move they have a time loop you know you you calculate where everything is now you calculate where everything is a delta t from now you calculate where everything is two delta t's from now and so on so you have this outer time loop on the simulation so every time you click over one delta t you move your object one delta x

one pixel the distance you can't go any faster than that unless you jump pixels you can say well one delta t i'll jump 10 pixels that's called teleporting and that's not the way our reality works our reality is meant to feel continuous not things teleporting around so one pixel the distance for one pixel of time now what is our typical pixel of what do we think in physics that is our pixel of time and distance is called planck length planck time okay so you take a plank time which is where that's our pixel of time

and you divide that into a delta x which is our planck length of distance and guess what you get the speed of light that's one delta x and one delta t you can't go any faster than that in a verse reality world of warcraft also has a resolution with pixels of time and pixels of distance and you can't move anything through that virtual reality any faster than one pixel of distance for one pixel of time so that's why that is a constant the speed of light's a constant now that is fast as things can go

so the system is going to wait for that amount of time that it would take and then it's going to move that other thing because it's trying to create a reality for us that's that's feels natural and and makes sense to us we're not in a weird virtual reality where things teleport around it's trying to make a good virtuality what's a good virtuality it's one that the people in it can't tell it's virtual that's the definition of a really good virtual reality so that's why c is a constant it's because what about chaos because chaos

is an interesting one isn't it because in chaos theory we see a vast amount of uh existence operating in this this very very high entropy situation with these these very small pockets of order that seem to sort of hold the chaos in check how can your theory give us a little more insight into chaos the one of the problems with well let me just put it let me get it another way when we talk about simulation many people think that we start at the ground up with tiny things you know subatomic particles we build up

atomic particles which build up molecules which build up the physical world that is not how the simulation goes that is pretty much an impossible thing to do i won't say it's impossible if we had an infinite computer with infinite speed and infinite resources maybe it could do that but the real systems are not infinite so what we have instead is a probabilistic simulation it's more of a top-down probability model that's why particles are probability distributions because it works that way but that creates a problem if you do the work from the bottoms up you always

know what's going to happen next because what happens next is what happened is a result of what happened before right the the next thing is just easily calculated because you know everything that's led up to that you know where it's going to be that's determinism that's why materialism is also has to be deterministic you know give me a the the state of every particle you know in the universe and i can calculate everything that will happen from then on you see that's determinism so you know what's going to happen next but if you have a

top-down probability how do you know what's going to happen next you don't have the the structure underneath to tell you that so the way you find that is the system takes a random draw from the probability distribution of the possibilities that's how it knows what happens next you see so there's all sorts of possibilities of what could happen each one has a different probability it takes a random draw now the random draw isn't a random draw from the possibilities then it would randomly pick any of those possibilities it's not that it's a random draw from

the probability distribution of the possibilities so those things that have higher probability are more likely to come out of that random draw right so that's the way the reality works now how does it find you know we know about statistical realities and probability realities and we know they generally tend to be efficient and fast because it doesn't have to do all the calculations but their their flaw and their failure is that the programmers never know what the real probability distributions are going to look like they're guessing at those probability distributions and often they're in our

models that we make that are probability models we do all kinds of things to make it easier for us so we have gaussian distributions and poisson distributions and things that are mathematically easy for us to deal with when the real world doesn't have distributions like that at all the real world has this kind of ugly distributions because it's an interaction of a whole lot of things making the real world the way it is so we have really good distributions in this simulation though because the underlying rule set you see everything in this reality is there

because it's been created it's been evolved because of this rule set so all you have to do is get that rule set to crank out your probability distributions so you have a basically deterministic mostly deterministic with some natural uncertainty put in rule set that creates very accurate probability distributions from which now you can run a very efficient probability model which is millions and billions of times quicker and more efficient than a bottoms up kind of a model but you're stuck with this idea that you need to get a random distribution from the probability i mean

a random draw from a probability distribution to figure out what's going to happen next but can the rule set itself evolve as rupert sheldrake has controversially suggested could could happen the rule set can change very very slightly but no it does not evolve exactly very very slightly but the rule set i mean after all this whole reality was evolved based on that rule set how those initial conditions could change so what the rule set does is it creates the set of possibilities right only those things that were within the rules can happen anything outside the

rules can happen so that's the set of possibilities and this whole universe has evolved according to that rule set now that rule set is very basic and sometimes it has it has uh you know randomness in it there's some things that are random like how you know the particles fly off of a radioactive source you know they fly off in random directions you know there's so there's randomness in the in that rule set but mostly it's a deterministic rule set and it doesn't change much it could change slightly there are some rules we have that

aren't really so much the rule set as they are just policy and in my books you'll read about the um uh what is it called the science certainty principle you'll read about that in the books well that's not so much a rule set thing as it is just policy it just helps us evolve better so you have different things those policy things can change easily when we change the policy changes but the rule set not so much so on to quantum mechanics you've you've touched there on probability beautifully expressed there now i mean i just

gotta pull out one of the most important examples because i think it's a really it really expresses very well where your ideas can help here which is of course the famous wave particle duality guys we've got a whole show on it with some we might say a more slightly more uh copenhagen interpretation physicist john butterworth uh from ucl and from the cern accelerator gave a brilliant show on the wave particle duality obviously tom's going to give us a very different take on this now in your theory the the the copenhagen interpretation has got it got

it completely backwards how is it no no no oh no my theory in my theory the copenhagen is correct oh okay so it's just regarding this probability uh yeah it's not correct in the in the in the way it describes why things happen but it doesn't understand why things happen but as far as what happens it's correct it is a wave uh more or less sorry wave is again another mental construct but yeah it is then on observation that it collapses the wave collapses into into part yeah there is no wave there is no particle

until a consciousness you know gets the information so i can we can go through that and i can tell you you know why that works and why it comes out the way it works but the the copenhagen folks and you know they call it interpretation it wasn't and called an interpretation people to copenhagen didn't say this is our interpretation the people in copenhagen said this is the results of our experiments we've done all these experiments and we have these bizarre unexplainable results and here they are and we've repeated the experiments there's no flaw there this

is the way reality works that was copenhagen it was only later when people didn't like those results because they just flew in the face of materialism that they said well that's just an interpretation so now it's known as the copenhagen interpretation not the copenhagen results but the results that they displayed in copenhagen were the right results that's exactly what happened what they said is what happened now they explained it as you know a wave function collapsing to a particle and so on there is no wave function and it doesn't collapse to a particle all of

that are are metaphors and it's the best metaphors that they could come up with at the time they didn't have any other metaphors that were any better so i give them five gold stars for that because you know you come up with the closest approach you can for a metaphor to explain what's going on that's not the there's a difference between the metaphor and the actuality that's not how it works but that is a very good metaphor for how it works and copenhagen was right now after copenhagen people wanted to understand this new reality that

we suddenly were aware of that copenhagen told us about and nobody had a clue as to how to put together a story how to put together a model that explained it so now years go by copenhagen did their thing a hundred years ago almost exactly okay so a hundred years later people gave up trying to find that structure that process that that perspective in which it all made sense and instead of saying well that means that we probably just don't understand yet nobody likes to come likes to say they don't understand particularly if that's their

profession so instead they say oh it's just weird physics nobody will ever know it's impossible shut up and calculate you see and they gave up trying to understand it and they actually came to a belief that it was not understandable well that got them off the hook instead of them being on the hook to figure it out now they just were on the hook to shut up and calculate and uh and rather than talking about feynman i assume you're talking about feynman and his and his brilliant quantum field theory the maths works beautifully but you

think it doesn't describe the reality yeah well if i tell you how the reality works you'll see how his math actually represents that but but his understanding of why that math worked no he didn't have any idea why that math should work why particles should be probability distributions that was the mystery that's the weirdness in quantum physics well you know a hundred years have gone by and there's still no really understanding that they get it's no structure that they can hang that on and what they have done in the last 20 or 30 years the

last several decades is they not only have called the hope the copenhagen results the copenhagen interpretation the kind of distance from it but they've made up a couple of other things that that actually says the copenhagen results are wrong and i disagree with that the copenhagen results are right and they have they have gotten away from the there is no observer effect anymore you know and they the information is tied up with entanglement and they've they've they've worked their math into a into telling them a story that they'd rather hear and that's kind of where

we are and one of my physics experiments that i have is to set that story straight and i think it will go it will tell us that copenhagen said it right that's exactly what happens and right now physics denies it but they seem to deny it without ever having done the experiment well what's the experiment um is it related to wheeler's delayed choice version of the experiment i mean i love wheeler's slightly vague description the participatory universe really does express beautifully your idea of a user interacting interacting with with the the set of rules yeah

i i agree i think ed wheeler lived long enough he probably would have been one of my best friends he i think he would have loved my theory because much of what he understood about reality is is what i you know is what i cover and i i see eye to eye and within with most of the things that he he said about the nature of reality but anyway uh let me just do double slit so that uh let's start with the normal one yeah before we go okay i can give your readers just a

very maybe 30 second idea of double slit what made double slit interesting is that they they knew that light was a wave that came 100 years earlier you know with with prisms and and light so they know a lot about light and they they they uh use the mathematics of waves to describe light and that worked very well in what we call optics but then einstein came along with his with he got actually a nobel prize the only nobel prize he got he didn't get it for relativity he got it for the photoelectric effect he

showed that the photoelectric effect in his experiments showed that light came in chunks and he called it a photon and it had momenta well if you have momenta you know momentum is mv that has to be an m so it it carried momenta and that had physicists thinking well if it's a particle and if you shine a light at two slits then the particles ought to just go through one slit and hit behind you know go through the slit hit the screen behind the slit they shouldn't interfere with each other they're particles so was light

a wave or was light a particle well optics show the interference what would particles show if you put them through one at a time now remember the light is considered if it's full of these particles it's billions of particles just billions of particles all going through this list but these particles don't interact with each other each particle is independent every photon just goes its own way as if it was the only photon in the universe they're not interactive particles they don't have charges they don't interact with each other they don't run into each other they

just all independent so if you have millions of particles going through these slits at the same time oh they interfere if you have just one what's it going to do well the idea was if you just had one particle they would just hit behind a slit they would just go through a slit and hit the screen right behind that slit well let's find out and that's what bore and you know these guys did this with the experiments they did well when they sent one particle at a time through what they found out is eventually they

send one particle through and then you bit you get a little light on the screen another particle through and put the light someplace else on the screen another particle through and another little particle on the screen and when you looked at all those blips on the screen guess what it was an interference pattern and they said what how do you send single particles and get an interference pattern look even newton told us that a particle unless acted on by an external force will travel in a straight line particles have no exterior force here nothing so

how is it that they rearrange themselves into a diffraction pattern when they go through these slits one at a time well let's look and see let's watch him go through the slit so then they had a way of watching it going through a slip ah okay particle just went through this lit little blip shows up on the screen ah particle went through that slit little blip shows up on the screen and when they collected all the blips what did they have they had a pile of blips behind each slit they didn't get an interference pattern

they got a particle pattern just a pile of particles behind each slit and they said that's interesting let's stop looking and they stopped looking and they got a interference pattern they looked they got a piles of particles they got a particle pattern so they came to the conclusion that light is sometimes a wave and sometimes a particle it's just the way light is you know that light's kind of a squirrely thing anyway you know it's got zero rest mass ghosts always always at the speed of light you know you gotta you got it starting here

and we know that everything that's still has to accelerate to go faster but not light light just starts from still to c on less than an instant and it just stays at that velocity no matter what the velocity of the source is so light's kind of a very unique sort of thing there so why not just say sometimes it's a particle and sometimes it's a wave but of course that doesn't really make any logical sense tom i'm kind of with von neumann here i just kind of think it's an observer thing tell us how my

big toe uh will see this because through your theory i'm assuming it's an observer question are you are you with von neumann on this one well yes let me tell you how that works it is an observer thing as we already have said the only way to get something into this virtual reality is for it to come into the mind of an observer there is no other way the virtual reality doesn't actually exist it exists only in the minds of the players players are not the bodies players are the consciousness okay so the observer is

key or you can't get something into the reality the virtual reality doesn't exist by itself it's only in the minds of the players all right so what happens is that you set up this experiment and you're going to throw one particle at a time the larger conscious system looks at this experience and says oh damn get me between a rock and a hard place you know what am i going to do here how am i going to show the results of this experiment and what it says what it concludes now i'm just this is you

know just metaphor me trying to trying to make it so it's easy to understand it says well i have one constraint and that is that optics has already shown that you'll get an interference pattern and they show why you know there's they have the their own mathematics that you get an interference pattern now if we don't get an interference pattern i've got an inconsistency in my virtual reality because light particles don't interact with each other whether they go through one at a time or whether they go through a millions at a time is absolutely the

same thing it doesn't matter so how could you get two different results that would be an inconsistency in the virtual reality and any virtual reality that's good has no inconsistencies in it the whole point is to make it without inconsistency so it's entirely credible virtual reality so the system says well okay what we do is that those particles will come through and they will land somewhere on that screen right their probability now so where's the probability they're going to land well here's the probability distribution it's it's these peaks you know with a big peak in

the middle and then nothing and then another peak and then nothing and another peak and the peaks get smaller as you go down that's the probability distribution i'm going to pick from because that's the probability distribution that will look like an interference pattern so the first particle goes through a random draw from the probability distribution of the possibilities that's where the particle goes next particle comes through random draw from the probability distribution of the possibilities that's where it goes and when you're done you've got an actual picture of the probability distribution which is you know

a little peak a little bigger peak big peak littler peak little peak so on with the spaces that's in that's an interference pattern and i've i've solved the boundary problem because now optics and quantum mechanics don't have a fundamental conflict and we don't have this conflict in the virtual reality so the system just picked that particular probability distribution when it was calculated so that's the way it works there isn't a wave function it doesn't collapse when the measurements made you have a virtual reality that what happens next is a random draw from a probability distribution

of the possibilities so that's the probability distribution it was picked to to eliminate a logical inconsistency in the virtual reality so that's the way it works so it just does that you know and we talk about quantum mechanics it's just for the just for the small you know it only happens that the little particles going really fast it's not really a thing here it works the same way here and that is an important thing to say in our life it works the same way and one of my favorite analogies is you have an astronomer we

got that going now with a new telescope it's going to look further than anybody ever saw before right it's going to see something new well what is it going to see top down probability simulation what happens is there's a lot of possibilities what might be out there let's say it sees deeper into the earth a lot of possibilities so maybe there's a thousand possibilities and each one of those possibilities has a higher or smaller probability so they get their new telescope and they look at it and they start taking their pictures or getting their results

on computers and what happens is that the system takes a random draw from all those possibilities and that's what they get you see there's really nothing out there now this is virtual reality it's not computed if you don't see it so what they get is that random draw from from the probability distribution and they look at that and they say ah that's what's out there and now because that's been seen by the observer that becomes a part of our reality and anything that becomes a part of your reality stays in the reality because now it's

it's you know it's a virtu this virtual reality is a multiplayer game so everybody sees the same thing it's a multiplayer game so now it's in our reality thank you so much for this extraordinary extraordinarily simple take on quantum mechanics i think it's uh it's it's it sounds so simple in our conversation but it would it would appear so radical if we were trying to speak about this in the royal society or something people would just raise an eyebrow and sort of you know head to the bar wouldn't they they just wouldn't yes wouldn't be

able to get it all in one but in this conversation it makes perfect perfect sense now tom we've reached the the end of our time and it really is just so extraordinary to hear these these giant problems that have you know frustrated the greatest minds of our universities for so many years just being you know just elegantly beautifully put to bed uh so easily so i think really what what we need to do is we need to tell the listeners where they can get the most sort of up-to-date version because i think you have updated

your theory uh since 2003 what's the best book for listeners to get if they want to get an overview of where you've got up to by now okay well there's several places um you know i have my books my big toe you know they can find those any place that they find books pretty much i guess that will be the basic theory theory of consciousness and kind of the basic fundamental theory of the of physics as well so they'll get that fundamental basis there they won't get a lot of science there because if you put

a lot of science in a book that's for the public the public won't read it so most of the science is actually in the discussions i have that are all on youtube and i've got about a thousand hours or more of a video there so now that's that's intimidating that just get you know you have to find that needle in the haystack but i also have a search engine that will search by subject through all those thousands of hours and pull out the things that that look like they meet your search another thing is that

if you go to my website i know if you go to my my youtube site okay and that's www.youtube.com so if you go to that my youtube and you can get that just by doing my name on on youtube i mean and you'll get that so you can get there so you can get to the youtube site and then click on the playlist and when you look at playlists you'll find one that'll say science trilogy mbt science and there's i started out with a trilogy that was just three videos but then i've added some to

that so there's three or four five not a lot of videos there and they basically explain in detail the science of mbt the mathematics you know people will say well where's your math you know if there's no math then there's no science and that's not true yeah that's that's not true you know physics is about logic not about math now math is just the logic of quantity but that's not all the logic there is you know so anyway it goes into it goes into uh that sort of thing so you can get the science there

if you're interested in the science if you're interested in actually learning how to work in the intuitive side develop your intuitive side experience the paranormal things yourself then i've got courses for that and some are just as simple as as uh doing your home and your own it's your own time you know it doesn't cost that much at all and those are online courses that we can find on mybigtoe.com yeah you can find that uh you'd probably yeah i think you can find them no find them on mbt events mbt events mbt events they're the

people that basically say where i'm going to be and what i'm going to be doing they're my schedulers my my managers or handlers or whatever you want to call it because i tend to be the big picture guy not the management guy i don't like doing that i'd rather deal with the concepts than i would with the minutia of scheduling and that sort of thing so they do most of that for me so go there and you can find all of these things but i'll leave you with one last thought and that is that okay

it's been a hundred years since the quantum physicist uh boar at all in copenhagen told us how reality was really really different than we thought okay and since then all of the deep thinkers in science have said you know there is an explanation we just don't understand it this idea that we'll never understand is not right that's just people who don't know kind of covering up the fact that they don't know that there's going to be a perspective and all it's going to be is it's just a paradigm shift and we see that different perspective

all the pieces are going to fall into place we just need that perspective because that's the way it's always worked before the flat earth ah they just needed the perspective you see of gravity and and you know they needed that bigger idea and then suddenly ah everything made sense the people on the other side aren't going to fall off you know it works and the the earth being the center of the universe well you know just how did you have a bigger perspective of things like solar system and and so on and suddenly ah everything

makes sense all that hard stuff to understand becomes simple and the quantum theorists who were the smart guys usually the old guys said we're going to find that one day and matter of fact one of them said and it's probably going to be a graduate student that that figures it out because all the rest of us are so you know into the into the uh the viewpoint that we have that it's going to be really hard for us to see this paradigm shift but when that shift comes it's going to be a doozy it's going

to be really different because it's not just about the center of the universe or the flat around earth it's about our whole nature of existence in reality and what it is and when that paradigm shift comes it's going to be a hard to see well it's been a hundred years and that paradigm shift has not actually hit the mainstream yet because it is that strange so they knew all along that if it wasn't really really strange if it wasn't really out of left field it couldn't possibly be true so i just kind of offer that

to your readers to say yes this idea of the virtual reality this idea that the the new telescope is going to see whatever's drawn out of the random you know the random draws of the probability distributions there's really nothing out there it's not calculated because if the people aren't looking at it then there's no need to send the data stream to somebody because the virtual reality is just in the minds of the people so that's strange and that's very strange but what they'll find is what you just said that once you've got that all of

these paradoxes all of these big mysteries in theology in philosophy in metaphysics and in physics all just fall over they all just are obvious simple explanations that are logical and they just explain everything it really is a theory of everything and not only do you explain the science but why are you unhappy you know why do you have anxiety attacks all of that is in the subjective world but it explains that subjective world just like explains the objective world so it's a big toe not just a little toe of out of quantum mechanics and and

relativity get along but it's the big toe of reality and all those things in psychology and psychiatry and the rest of it they fall right out and are obvious as to exactly what's wrong how that works what's going on so that's the beauty of it it's it's sounds absolutely nuts and it couldn't possibly be true if it didn't i just i think it doesn't sound nuts tom and that's why i think that this paradigm change is well underway because i think for a a very virtual reality savvy generation i think that this is actually going

to sound very very very plausible that that that paradigm shift is well underway and i think interestingly science will actually probably be behind the general public in that slow change of of attitude probably because it kind of has to be through its conservative nature and through the way consensus works but it remains for me just to say thank you so so much tom for your extremely generous attitude in the way that you're offering the the warm um spoils of your experience just this the extraordinary amount of direct experience that you have transformed into a world

view and the way that you're opening that up to to members of the public i just think it's utterly brilliant so thank you so much from me and from the listeners and the listeners do go and check the links in the show notes find out more and we'll be seeing tom once again hopefully in the future he can come back on the show again tom cam thank you so much you're quite welcome freddie and i i will be back again if you if you invite me perhaps after you've been through this whole series and you

can end up with questions unresolved things come on back and we'll resolve them [Music] you