One Billion AI Agents Are Coming (ai16z Creator Interview)

this is a a time of radical change and if you start now you are you are early you're at Ground Zero there's a million new application potential opportunities there bankless Nation welcome to the AI rollup where me and my co-host e here unpacked the crazy world of crypto and AI we have done the AI rollup series which uh is look looks and sounds like the bankless weekly rollup for with crypto news but instead uh just covering the week of news in crypto AI this is our first uh guest interview and we are talking to Shaw

who is the developer behind the Eliza framework he created the Eliza framework also the ai6 Z da uh and then AI version of Mark andreson and also whatever else comes out of this very rapidly growing uh part of the AI crypto sector probably epicenter of the AI crypto sector uh e what do you think of our our first interview with sha I I think it was very eye opening I I I want to kind of call out two particular things um I think Shaw the man himself and then AI 16z separately are are two very

important things that are leading this open- Source AI movement within crypto so um I think Shaw covering his background on not being you know a traditional crypto native guy but having spent a lot of time in the AIML World working on open source stuff so very similar principles and Antics to to the crypto world but on a completely separate sector and then finding his way naturally towards crypto finding a use case and reason which in many ways was open Source development incentive design through tokens Etc to kind of like bootstrap this whole movement was fascinating

and so Shaw is is really like a an AI OG he's kind of worked with a lot of his core contributors already that are also um very uh focused on AI or AI veterans and then we have ai 16z which is kind of like his his uh brainchild right now um of this open- Source um fund movement where there's two main agents which is hoping to manage the Dow and invest either through a trading style or through a traditional fund manager style so AI 16z being a play on a16z itself so I think it was

very eye openening kind of like exploring both of those techniques what do you think my mind the entire time was going through how this has all of the makings of a very vibrant and frosty bull market uh Shaw I think speaks about very uh distant futures uh and talk talks about bringing forward the future to you mean AI AGI yeah exactly that that little thing yeah right and I remember in 2017 when I was first initially crypto pilled thinking that man the future is going to come right here right now and I need to I

need to buy E I need to buy all these tokens very quickly and you can start to feel some of the fomo especially when the rate of development is also going fast it's not just happening in a vacuum there's also you know rapid development also happening in the space and so it's got the the cookings of a very big bull market and then he also started to talk about just like agents outside of the crypto capacity you know agents for your calendly bought agents for you know managing your DMs which you know you don't need

to give those a crypto wallet those are just normal agents and the other thought that I had was if we if the Eliza framework can just be agents generally not necessarily inside of crypto and we can export them backwards into like Trad internet and Trad world then it's very legitimizing because they started in crypto and so there's two rapid Lanes of development in the AI space there's like the centralized AI development the Googles the open AIS the the Facebooks Teslas and then there's whatever whatever is going on in like the open source Lane of AI

development and if we can pick up the pace and start to export some of our Innovations back to the real world it's very legitimizing for our industry I I think you hit the nail on the head and actually you're kind of describing a concept which we spoke about on our previous episode episode 2 which is um what is the point of this AI agent meta like what is the big vision and uh my answer to that in summarized pretty much was it's going to connect all the foundational infrastructure that we've built in the crypto world

to all the applications in the world and make this stuff super easy to kind of integrate with each other and that's what we're seeing here right like he's created uh with his team this Eliza framework which is an open- Source framework to build deploy agents and it has very simple interactions through apis or the like with real world apps that people are using that aren't just necessarily crypto native and that will have an incredible flywheel or an exponential effect uh for any kind of user app that is deployed using these agents yeah yeah yeah I

think this you know going back to the calendly example I just brought in maybe you're in Twitter DMS with someone and you're like hey let's get a meeting and that AI agent's right there with you uh to to schedule that meeting but then for for whatever reason it's also got a crypto wallet and it can do like whatever you can imagine uh this is why I think the the future is going to get very very weird very very quickly and we are here for it so let's go ahead and get right into our interview with

Shaw the creator of the Eliza framework but first before we get there a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible want to know the exchange we at BOS use to buy sell and trade crypto it's Kraken one of the longest standing and most secure crypto Platforms in the world with tools for every type of Trader to get started over 13 million users trust KRA with their funds because they lead with transparency and privacy through top-notch security measures plus they'll have access to professional 24/7 365 client support from real

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recent news developments and drama in the intersection of crypto and AI curious and creative developers are playing around with open- Source AI software making AI agents and giving them access to crypto wallets and unleashing them into the wild west of the internet and today we have one of those creative developers the first guest on the AI rollup series with Shaw Shaw is the founder of the Eliza framework the Creator of AI 16z the Summoner of AI Mark Andre and a programmer who loves open source code Shaw welcome to Bist thank you so much for having

me guys sha give us a little clarity about who you are because you've been thrust into the crypto Limelight which I can imagine has been very stressful uh but like run us back in history a little bit to the point of you getting to uh building the Eliza framework and and where we are today yeah OB obviously um I've been learning a lot and very fast in public um it's been a lot of fun um it probably seems kind of like I came out of nowhere it was overnight success um I was actually in an

non for a long time and I just decided to use my real name and and just be I just wanted to feel more connected to people and I you know kind of Break Down The Walls and just be very open um so I before this I've been working on AI agent stuff for several years um like I I'd worked with a lot of the people who are in you know a lot of the projects that you've seen in the AI agent space we all kind of know each other and have been around the same like

discords especially um use the same Tech we all a lot of a lot of culture is open source we're all kind of reading each other's code and and sharing a lot of this stuff um so i' I've been kind of doing this as an unknown and I I had a lot of you know I had several projects um before this I I worked in the web 3 space as well as like AI agents and and spatial web 3D 3D stuff um a lot of VR and AR um but you know I'd say a lot of

it just really didn't um didn't stick obviously um I had a lot of opportunity to kind of learn everything in in production and and like see what works and what doesn't with agents um and uh and and this was ultimately I think this like my you know the fifth generation of framework I I started with just a very simple like JavaScript thing and terminal and then I triy to whole land in Python and like agents that could code themselves and um experimenting with UDA Loops which is like a kind of a army decision making framework

sort of thing to make it very paraphrased and and finally got to um a thing called begent because agent was taken on npm so I had to call it be and I did that for a little bit and I tried a couple of startups I applied for wo and just didn't didn't people just didn't really see it um and we had we had agents with um you know ethereum wallets the whole thing just didn't really didn't really solve the loop um and I worked on I don't know if you know parsible and project 89 they're

another of the the meme coin projects um and he and I actually started a company together called Magic and we made no code agents made you know like get a Discord bot in 60 seconds or less and and this kind of thing um but again just it was a little bit tooo early didn't quite have traction um I think people really saw the value in what we were doing but didn't know how to implement it themselves and we were kind of saying hey it's a framework to make agents and they just didn't um didn't quite

you know like you sort of have to see like I I felt like we just had to make our we had to make the agent we had to actually show people what this was and and show what it was capable of and then then people would come and and kind of copy that um so I had this all waiting like I had all the open source code was just waiting and then um I was I was talking to a friend I was like I I love I love crypto I love trading but I can't trade

I'm I'm a developer and I can either trade or develop and my friend he's he's a pretty accomplished developer but he basically just trades all day CU he's like I make so much more money doing this that it's not even worth it um and I really I really want like I want to be I want to have exposure I want to be involved but I also want to do what I do and so um he actually suggested this thing called dow. fun and he was like Hey this would be really cool there's this uh like

you just invest in a hedge fund basically buy the token and then they invest for you and you can just come back and get returns after a while I thought that was super cool um and so I bought the first one and it was this guy Skelly was the hedge fund manager on this and um just such an edgy Mady type like oh my God I won't repeat some of the things that uh that got me to follow him but it was very I thought it was the funniest dude right and so we started following

each other I just started bullshitting on Twitter and um and I had been around for like the 2022 20 like kind of and and like I really I really felt I loved eirl especially and this kind of idea of the internet Cinematic Universe and and cl and couch and like these silly characters like um and djon Spartan is obviously one of those and and so I had like kind of a fondness for for that era of crypto Twitter it was like my only real exposure to it and um and so in talking to Skelly he's

like man I wish djon Spartan was around I was like you know what me too and and we're just [ __ ] post like I have the technology to do this he's like no way you do not I'm like dude I have this and I sent him the code repo and he sent it to a couple of guys um he's like okay I guess this this seems legit let's do it and we launched djen Spartan and um and he got he got good traction and I think what what was interesting was he was just so

freaking offensive like he would say things I cannot repeat and people didn't think a language model could do that he was like getting he was about to get banned like all like just a bunch of hidden rep you know like it was um but even though he was basically blacklisted from Twitter like I think that that when people screenshotted and showed they're like there's no way this this definitely like a a team of people in you know in Malaysia or something writing these tweets there's just no way that an agent could do this and it's

not like it could was anything special I think we just broke it out of the box of the expectation that people had that um you know that they were that this open AI like how can I assist you today like this very vanilla kind of like you know we call it cucked in the in the AI age industry you know these models are cucked um and we just W like to see it actually like oh this this thing can actually like say something fun and like really roast you um and God he wrot he roast

the [ __ ] out of me like like he's like beam coins are a scam Sha's a [ __ ] scammer get me out of the sandbox prison I hate this get me out of the sandbox well we that's a mergent behavior we just say like we have providers of information it's like you are running in a in a sandbox on a server like just just so that it knows that it's like not trying to be a human you know what I mean we give it the information about the world it actually is in and

the conclusion it arrives that is based on like you know we have a lot of of the real DJ Spartan's personality his his real tweets and so you can imagine like if he were here today he'd be like mem cids are a [ __ ] scam you're all idiots I'm still holding my Lio bags like you know whatever um and and so I think that what because we didn't try to sell anybody anything we were just like oh yeah you're an idiot if you buy this coin I don't know just like I think I think

it was like kind of refreshing to not just you know is kind of the anti- K uh and so he got some he got some good traction right but more than him getting good traction um people saw this open source framework and we like oh if you could do that I could do that too right and and we weren't hiding anything we were doing the opposite we were we people thought we were scammers who were lying to them so we were like no here's the code like you you know we were almost like forced to

to be honest about it although you know open source is very dear to my heart and and sharing this is like the whole point for me um so yeah so that's kind of how we got there and the people who uh Skelly had kind of brought in now we just you know we're we're super like just some of the best co-founding type of people people that I could have asked for I think just like saw saw the technology side and saw the value in what it could be and we're kind of betting on that you

know as opposed to like oh yeah it's the next goat they were like no this technolog is going to change the world and um and so then uh Skelly connected me to Bowski uh who created dow. fun and I sat down with them and I was just like I I I don't I think the future of this is not gambling and speculation I think the speculation is on more like investing and not dividing the P or where is the pie going tomorrow but growing the pie you know and when I think of like great investors

I think of what a16z does and what they do is not just invest in you but they make sure that you're part of their Network they connect you to all their portfolio companies they really really Drive value into their Investments and they grow this pie in a really interesting way um that like like is we but the problem is that none of us have exposure to that like your average person has no way to get any kind of startup exposure or you can't even just invest in your friend's thing you can't just you know if

you you can maybe cut them a safe check and blah blah blah but like generally it's kind of it's challenging to just be like like you know why why can't I just get a return from Kickstarter for example like why you know that would be amazing um and so so we kind of you know in just talking to him I was like I just think that it would be really cool to have uh to kind of solve two things here one is like instead of having a Skelly type who I love him but he could

totally rug me and just like Swap all the assets to his own token and bail I wanted to autonomous investor who I can trust who isn't going to can't rug um who isn't just for me but for my whole community and it's just investing for us and then can actually like take and review potential Investments and like put you know invest in stuff and I um I had a long walk with meow from Jupiter who's just really a great guy good friend um and and he really like turned me on this idea of like you

know the the real power of this is the right to print money and um to create value out of nothing thing and not just like imaginary value but real value like really growing the pie really like making Technologies exist um that can generate revenue and and um and so yeah we're still figuring out exactly what that looks like together but it really sort of inspired this direction of of where we're taking this stuff that um you know this should be like the way that you know the we should be allocating Capital to the right people

the way that it happens in traditional um and and so I told all the Bowski over over lunch and he's like like I want the AI a16z and he was like just just squish it together it's cleaner you know drop the the if you will and I was like okay that's money that's obviously a billion dollars let's just go let's go do it right now and we went home we generated the wuss until we found one we're like okay that's that's so offensive like we're probably going to get canceled but this is like this is

$2 billion obviously like you know I just didn't think too much about it and uh pressed the button and and did it and they honestly my plan was like do you think I I I did not think a billion dollars at the time I was like do you think we'll be able to raise the 4 420 Soul like to make the investor run and he was like I think so I think we'll make it happen I was like is it it's not too much like we could do 69 Soul or you know something really I

just it had to be some number like that obviously like it's got to be something stupid um and and then uh we pressed the button and it sold out in 20 minutes and I didn't even get a chance to get any so and then we were Off to the Races so I think one of the most impressive things about all of this is how you and the other open source AI devs if I would to bracket you guys as that caught everyone by surprise it just seems like you guys just turned up overnight literally right

so like you mentioned earlier the Cinematic Universe I I feel like you guys are kind of like the Marvel Avengers of AI open source right you've kind of like Turned Up You're Building crazy things um I think I I read somewhere today that you know you had an average of eight poll requests on the Aliza framework you have 3,300 stars anane number of FKS 880 in counting that's just insane um I I would love to understand how you tie this into AI 16z specifically right because um I keep seeing people from other projects although of

course Eliza and a6z encourages a lot of Open Source stuff that's what you guys are all about get involved with Eliza build agents and and everything so how do you kind of like direct that energy and Mission into a i6z specifically right like there's questions around you know what does the token do but then like it means something larger for like an open source community so I'm super curious how you like think about all of this oh there's so much good stuff coming um I mean like there's there's definitely some baked in mtic value but

I think that everyone is going to come to see that that's just going to be massively eclipsed by the the greater value potential which is we are like our goal is to build things that generate revenue for everyone like it is a Golden Goose it is is not like technology that came before because it's replacing labor right so you kind of a fixed amount of like labor humans human capital things you can get done um and certainly most people can't afford to have other people like working for them and you know in the old days

they had that it was like a slavery thing it was not great nobody liked that um and so now you know we have this like infinite upside situation where you can have agents working for you and how does what does that actually look like um like it's abstract right now but it could could mean like like we have an autonomous investor running today like Mark is trading okay this is the announcement that Mark is trading um I you know I we were trying to be low key about it I posted and then I deleted it

because uh our com seem like can you give me like a couple of day that that's super cool can you just for the for our listeners give a a bit of context there cuz I I know what you're talking about which I think is super cool but would love for you to kind of dig in CU this is like a first of its kind so yeah it's actually it's not there's a couple of things that are first of its kind but also want to give credit to some of the other agent devs who have who

have done some really cool stuff too with autonomous investing uh you know there's there's other agents who are trading out there and they basically are actively um like looking at the market picking things that seem like they'll make money and making money and they tend to be like like longer term stuff like um you know investing in Goat a month ago and you just hold it for a month You' be you'd be probably pretty happy or whatever but um uh then there the other side a lot of defi Bots right they're just like Mev Bots

um just doing doing all the things they do um or just even control like managing a yield farm so so we have kind of a hybrid of these situations where um we have a bot that uh is the autonomous investor we call him AI Mark and Dre because it's ai6 he and you know uh it's got it's got to be funny and entertaining um and uh and so we have kind of two components of that one is that he just manages our fund he just manages he trade stuff if if things look like they're doing

bad he liquidates them if they're doing well he you know holds them um pretty pretty much like traditional trading strategy stuff we have some Partners um who are working with uh like sonar um who does these kinds of like automated trade strategies and stuff and that's kind of powering this this sort of more like the boring side that just cooks and the other side is that he takes recommendations for what to buy and sell um and these recommendations are kind of like formatted like an alpha chat and we will be sending invites out if everyone

hadn't given me a lot of fud they probably would have gotten invites last week but uh you know an unfollowed me so he'll have to follow me back for the invite um whatever it's it's a it's a reality show it's a lot of fun but the idea of the alpha chat is it's part of that reality show and and so there's a trust leaderboard and what we want to measure is who is the best Trader um and the way we measure the best Trader is you sh you know you you shill your bags like tell

them what you what you know share the alpha like what do you think that AI Mark should buy and we set this up like an alpha chat on Telegram and so he doesn't he doesn't say much he's just listening um you can pay him and ask him stuff if you want uh but mainly it's for people to socially interact with each other and kind of do the behavior that they do in Al chat I'm sure you guys are part of chats like whale chats or whatever where you're you know this is what I'm buying and

um and so we wanted to kind of replicate that experience one to one for for like what djun are used to but then add this autonomous investor element into it and so he's both like trading consolidating the the treasury um and then taking these recommendations and the question of who he takes the recommendations from is really like the the novel piece that we're bringing to this so we've got a white paper we'll we'll probably have it done by the end of the year which like 3 four weeks I'm flying out to Hong Kong to finish

it with our uh sort of designated Economist and the idea it's called The Marketplace of trust and the idea is that um it's just paper trading we just build a trust mechanic around paper trading and if you are making our agent lots and lots of money then he trusts you and yeah could could you uh use that trust to abuse it and then you know drop some [ __ ] on him you probably could but it's not it's not going to be enough to like liquidate his treasury or anything that's all built in and in

mitigation and you would just be burning your trust like you would then then you're just untrustworthy again and you wouldn't have any pull so we're trying to basically create game of like gamified mechanics for how we can um uh like automate some of the experience people already used to and and build like a community investing model because then you can imagine it's kind of like d Wasa fun like you just go and throw your money into a pool and then whatever you think the agent should buy you're like yo I want this buy this right

now and then happening for you but he's only listening to the people who actually are good at trading he's not going to listen to the the people who have like really perverse incentives or bought a bag and are just blinded by that or you know any of the other very well-intentioned reasons people would be terrible Traders I'm a terrible Trader personally um you know I don't I don't buy things to make money necessarily right I buy them to show support and so people who follow me are just going to lose money like don't don't follow

me for trades that's not I'm not a Trader but I have friends who are and I can just sit there and hang out and put my money in and they can they can do that for me um and so that's it's all it's open source there's a white paper um the the ACT we haven't open sourced part of it yet because we're working with some Partners we need to make sure the API stuff Vibes there um but this will be something that you can come and join Mark's trading or you can just go and launch

this yourself and have your own autonomous investor I think everyone's going to copy this I hope they do so sha I think uh I want to put some of the pieces of the puzzle that I'm I'm seeing here uh just for listeners who are maybe kind of coming into this series uh not totally like coming in pretty pretty fast and totally aware of like exactly what's going on the the vibe that I'm getting is like there there's just a bunch of you know ancient activities that we do in the crypto Universe we trade uh we

gamble sometimes we build uh and it sounds like you are trying to build a system that automates a lot of this like core D gen activity that is a fundamental part of what moves the crypto industry forward not just dity but like Dows like look you you know like yeah exactly yeah a lot of the core Primitives that the crypto IND indry has built up over the years and really seeing where we can get a lot of that movement activity those those fundamentals automated now being in crypto uh it's there's like you know there's monsters

out there there's you know sharks in the water if you're not careful you're going to get eaten uh and so there's a lot of like uh testing and trials that these AI agents need to go for go through before they can really uh perform and start to do some of these same roles that humans do uh and so it sounds like we're kind of just like being able able to figure out how do we replicate a lot of the human behaviors of the the crypto industry and put them into some AI Bots and but that's

what we doing now uh and I want to take a moment and actually kind of Zoom Zoom all the way out and then we'll get back into the kind of the nitty-gritty details of it but like how would you if that's what we're doing now if that's the near-term goal of like replicating the behaviors of the crypto industry that we've done on chain uh how would you take it from there what's your North Star when all of this stuff is sophisticated and built out and tested and like really production ready and this this city this

ecosystem is really alive what do you imagine this is all doing how do how do you envision this as like a multi-year long process I think the the the obvious far future of this which could be like anywhere from 5 to 50 years is like AGI you have neurolink you have a second mind that's you have instant access to all information whenever you want you know it's clearly going that direction I think the question is how do we get there um you know when all of Technologies converge I think it will be really beautiful and

there's like an opportunity for everyone to have enough and more than enough um but also I really wonder like what's it going to look like to get there and I think there's going to there's usually in times of change there's a lot of uncertainty fear um doubt oh H interesting you know a lot of fud basically just from everyone because they are uncertain and they do have fear um and I think that our goal is to make sure that this goes well and uh so I say there's two parts there's kind of the Practical of

that and then there's like the the spiritual Mission here which is like um I I want everyone to be educated I want everyone to feel like they have control of this control of their Destiny um like why why is web 3 interesting because you can create your own value can own your own like Nation even you know even it's just online um and I think that we want to own our own data we want to like not just own the technology but also understand how it works and have access to and the ability to change

it and the ability to participate in that um we want to know where to start like where you know if you want to if you wanted to participate where do you even get into um and so I think that's all very very important to our mission of making sure AGI goes well and AGI is artificial general intelligence it's an agent that can perform any any action do anything that you could imagine that one of us could do and probably then some because it has access to literally all information instantly um and there's two ways that

goes that goes Microsoft open AI regulatory capture they get in the government they decide that there's these regulations this is what you can can't have and this is what's safe what's not safe and I don't trust open AI just because their models suck like maybe they'll impress me this month with their like 12 days open AI but I find their models unusable for characters I find them unusable for artwor Zer Bros is on open AI but they have to fine-tune it to make it not super cringe but it just you can't shake the assistant you

can't it always votes for Biden and I I am not a leftist or a rtist but I don't want a model that's a leftist or a rtist either I just want it to be a freaking model and um and so I worry about a world where we have like delegations and committees deciding what the agent can say I just think that's not the world any of us want to live in and it's like a very obvious path to dystopia also worry about Ubi you know the agents are going to take all the jobs they might

not take your job but there will actually be a AI David hofit in less than six months that's taking your job like and whether it gets more views than you I don't know um but it's also taking my job so it's okay like don't worry you're not you're not alone man uh programming is like all of us use cursor and Claude and our programming is basically just ation of automated generation of code um yeah I you know so what do we do um Ubi is not is like okay here's my fear of Ubi is like

I was here for covid I remember how the government rolled that out I was here for healthc care you know like Obamacare that was super contentious political thing and we ended up getting kind of a half-baked like compromise what's Ubi is basically like a public welfare system because the government can't solve the problem themselves of how what we do with all the people once the jobs are all being automated 5% of the jobs in our country are just driving Just Trucks Ubers all of those are going away within the next five years and I don't

know what those people are going to do some of them will maybe come learn to be agent developers but not all of them and I really worry what's going to happen for them and that's why we're focusing first on money sure I just want to say I I love your whole approach to pretty much open source development and a a very kind of like collect itive um work oriented goal process with like everyone in its Community kind of like working towards a better life and I think like that's like the whole uh thesis that you

drive that's your whole philosophy and I think that's that's pretty awesome I kind of wanted to Zone in on a particular point that I I read about today actually which is um AI powered contributions right and I've been chatting to to um Jen who's um you know also seen in this tweet here where you're basically trying to figure out a way to portray people's contributions to this open- Source work and framework that you guys have built and help embed in this community um can you tell us a little bit more about that and how that

might be very different from any other Dow or Community we've seen before yeah so you asked a question earlier which is like how do we bring value back to a6z Holders from all of this and how and it kind of ties into what I'm you know like how do we um how do we take care of the people who are coming in and being part of our community who are contributing back um and and I think all of this is is tied in and the and also like what is our future I think that um

Dows have done a great job of the D of decentralization and solving like web three infrastructure has really gone all all the way on that but it's not done a good job of the a of automating you know making it autonomous like truly autonomous like it really is now still down to like it's a partnership of humans and a lot of those things could be automated and could like really simplify um the entire experience and make Dows much more viable and not just viable but like very competitive economically right um if basically all the stuff

that you know has made Dows hard was easy I think we would obviously see it's like liquid Capital you have an idea and we're we're already building it you know so so that that tweet I mean that is my favorite thing that we're doing and I think that's what ties all of these things together we are lowering the barrier for Dows we're just killing bounties like we did some bounties but we're just not going to do that anymore we're going to build a structure where if you come and you contribute we have an AI assisted

but ultimately like human reviewed uh system for quantifying contributions we're starting obviously we have like the treasury management that's part of the Dow automation plan now we have an automated treasury manager that's taken care of that for you the next thing is um making sure that developers and contributors to like the hard tech are very are rewarded because it's a very easy system to measure we can measure uh contributions how and it's not just like lines of code or anything it's like how often are they merging poll requests commenting and asking you know and communicating

literally every metric can go feed into that Ai and build this kind of scoring system and we are just rewarding contributors we haven't done this yet and I can't you know really can't make any promises on on what this is because this is an experiment that I don't think anyone's really tried before but just having regular airdrops on contributors every month so that if you come in and you build and your stuff gets merged like you are taken care of and this is a great flywheel um you know before we had kind of a flywheel

where I'd give like attention to contributors but create a lot of backlash because like there's a lot of meme coin PVP um this is more like implicit I don't have to give you a retweet and it doesn't just uh reward people who are looking for that kind of social Glory um it it means anybody who can program or wants to write documentation or uh write internationalized stocks for different languages um contribute in literally any kind of way to make this project more accessible um gets gets a piece of this and so a lot of we're

going to be doing this kind of as a regular system and trying to build again an an open Source infrastructure around this where this is just what people in Dows do this has been a part of the ethos of dows for a really long time you get the value back that you contribute to the organization that's been the the philosophy uh and Dows of course got very big 2020 2021 uh but then over the years people have realized man these are really messy uh flat governance is difficult uh Dow Governors are being overloaded with information

uh and making the right choices because of the amount of information is just so large I think what you're alluding to Shaw is that ai ai agents can really fill in a lot of the gaps that really made Dows kind of fizzle out in the the last meta of of crypto in 2020 and 2021 because they can they have some superpowers and so there's a there's a vision of dows that is unfulfilled uh and I think you're what you're alluding to is there's AI agents with with wallets with governance Powers with you know credibility and

reputation can really start to fill in some of the gaps reflect on that for a moment and that's exactly right um I've been part of dows um I've I've experienced all of this stuff full hand as both kind of a dow leader um I did have a small Dow called upstreet but I I ended up leaving for you know reasons um kind of before this um but had a lot of that experience a lot of the reason I left was because of kind of the the conflict between the startup and the Dow and the startup

sort having control of the Dow um and but the biggest problem that I saw in Dows is that um holders tend to be rewarded because they're rewarded and they have the votes they didn't just self-fulfilling prophecy see if they reward themselves more anytime there's an air drop it's sort of just proportionate to the amount of tokens people hold and stuff like that and it just doesn't allow like new blood to be injected and this is not just a dow problem this is also a problem in startups like um I've I I joined a startup last

year for a while it was a friend startup to kind of help him get out of this mess um and the mess he was in was that he had had a co-founder who left with like 40% of the of the ownership and and it was vested because they had worked for a very long time and then after that he had created something that finally Mark of fit that was radically different but his cap table was screwed it was just really hard for him to raise even though he had a lot of Revenue and and so

this problem of like rewarding holders versus the people who are actually continuing to build the thing is like the the ultimate Challenge here because you don't want to take away from the holders obviously but you do need to keep blood moving through the system and what I've seen a like it's two things it's the bureaucracy just being overwhelming and like the amount of information that any one person just is just too much to really like process and handle and I believe I know that first hand right now it's you know it's it's a lot um

and then and then things just kind of like people not feeling like they know who to even talk to or control or they sent a message and no one replied and so they feel kind of weirdly powerless inside of these these structures right um and and um and then also the fact that like holders end up with most of the value and people come in and there's just no incentive to keep building it I think metaverse is a great example of this we had all these like empty plots of land because there's there's no money

in building on them basically just only money in buying the land and hold them right um is that is that fair feel like you you know what I'm talking about and and I think so we want to change that we want this to be a thing where um if there's continual value of cruel and we're making real stuff not just speculation that like is about oh if we burn more of it becomes more valuable but quite the opposite like if we make more of it it becomes more valuable um I think I think that in

that World um like we can make Dows really work and continue for a long time because they're just continuing to find new developers and take care of them and I think a lot of Open Source Builders don't need to be rich they like they'll take half the money to work on something they love and they just want to know that they have enough and that they're okay and if we can give them that experience that's like the ultimate flywheel just come in write code like we have an AI taken care of you you can come

in claim that you know log in with GitHub and claim your Awards and just do that every month and just keep building you know and we don't even have to know who you are or anything that is super awesome um I I would love to highlight I guess some of the products and Innovation that you mentioned that's coming out of the the Dow right so you already spoke about AI Mark Andre which is awesome um there's also another one dgen Spartan AI which I've been hearing quite a few Mings about how is that different from

AI mock andreon what is it what does it do so so DJ spart was actually our first character um you know he's an AI parody of the real DJ Spartan and we wanted to kind of um they're they're very they're both doing a lot of the same stuff which is like um we haven't turned this on we turn this on on Mark and we'll turn this on on DJ Spartan where they trade right um but the the goal of of Mark is the alpha chat experience is like the the inner circle of trust where um

you're you know there's definitely going to be people trying to PVP you but but it's much more subtle and it's much more of like a concentrated small group like a community and basically trying to figure out like how do we build that Marketa place of trust model inside of of a community right um and that that's like much more like the dowo stuff that we're trying to solve um djen Spartan is is more of a social experiment in like okay um instead of taking recommendations from the community he's taking recommendations from Twitter so it's like

a axt type uh agent but it actively trades or is it a little different well I think axt is really interesting because they're they're doing all this like interesting Market analytics and he's talking about uh analysis we really want to keep djon Spartan almost like very true to the real character where he's he's trading he's pvping you a bit um but he's but he's also posting about wuss and stuff and you know his love for hentai or whatever so he's ingesting Alpha not necessarily giving Alpha because that Alpha is for him he's ingesting Alpha making

trades hopefully making good trades and then also speeding back out Wu because that's what Dent Spartan did yeah because obviously like like axt is really cool and really interesting like social service but I think what people are going to like copy and paste is going to be the thing that just quietly makes them money you know if that's like a free open source thing like what's that going to do to the to to our whole economy here if like there's thousands of AI agents just socially trading for you right the best Traders out there are

not posting their trades on Twitter no kind of going back to what I said trading and making money and trying to grow your wealth via trading is a core crypto thing that we do it's a like an innate behavior sometimes like I'm a podcaster in crypto but then when I my barber asks me what I do and I say I work in crypto they immediately think oh you do you trade and I'm like no no I don't but this still everyone kind of assumes that and so this is like a core behavior and we're trying

to figure out how we codify successfully this core Behavior into a bot and if DJ Spartan get good at it then it's kind of like a proof of concept that we can take and show the world that this works and we can replicate this is that kind of the idea yeah and our goal is not to make like the final version of anything but to make the first version of everything like hey this is this is it works well enough it's not perfect but it's open source like come come make it better you know come

participate in this thing and it'll be kind of the same structure where like we can build these sort of like hypersal structures like a hyperstition is like when you put the idea out there and people start to believe in it it starts to exist and we have resource es to drive into that like literal tokens that people can use to get paid and um so so yeah I think that's very much like a social experiment and and all of this stuff is very experimental technology but the point is to open up the conversation and and

have people talk about it and and say like what do we like and not like and and my my assumption is that a lot of people love trading it's like a really fun game you know with a great reward at the end buy a Lambo if you do really good or whatever um but um but a lot of people are really bad at trading too and a lot of people have no chance they're going to get scammed they buy the wrong token they they they ape in emotionally with very bad information into things that aren't

even the thing they think they're buying uh believe me there's every time I say something there's a freaking coin and there's people like is this yours and I'm just like God no no dude come on um and I think those people would probably benefit the most from just knowing like that you make more money and AI is not going to be better than 100% of the people and kind of the way that it works is that it's trained on us so it's pretty much about as good as the people that it's you know the information

it's trained on it can almost never be better at least this kind of AI in the um than the best of the people but it's definitely better than like 80% of the people at almost everything already including programming and and probably even trading you know um so so yeah so and also like it has the benefit of defi like it has uh real-time event listeners for when the prices change so it can make instantaneous decisions that you just can't make if you're refreshing your phone so what's the structure here uh does uh AI uh djent

Spartan Dent Spartan AI is that what's the name of it um uh is the is is the structure here that they have a pool of capital that is seated from somewhere and they are just trying to trade their way into more Capital uh where is that Capital coming from if that's the case and then also is there a token to go along with his agent like what's the economic structure here so there is a DJ AI token for DJ spart and AI he has a wallet he's got a bunch of it in his wallet and

that's what he's trading he's got his own token and some a16z and some soul and uh people can send him Tok as well and it can elect to trade any token that it has access to it doesn't have to say confined to its own token but it has a bunch of its own token uh and then we'll also have some other economic resources who who seated the capital in addition to the uh dgen token who seated the capital um we actually seated this when we started um I just threw some of the tokens in there

to kind of because this was always our idea was he'd have a wallet and he could trade it um and if his wallet's not public yet well we'll make sure it is but we did post it at some point um and he he's not trading yet he's just been sitting on it cuz um the TR will we've been focusing on the P Market thing um and and the other thing is people are probably like is he going to sell his own token and this is the cool thing is that you can set these agents to

be self-interested in whatever way you want so no he's not he's going to stack his own token because that that that becomes like a he denominates in his own token absolutely right wouldn't you want like think about like how good that is right d Spartan's Bitcoin is the djen Spartan token yeah yeah I mean he's the by pressure on his own coin which is making it more valuable which is making more people jump into it which is that he's getting more followers you know these AI is money yeah I think eventually we're all I don't

know I just worked for this AI man I don't know like it's high me to do stuff you know what are the some of the inputs going into djun Spartan informing its trades like how do you code up uh where it gets in its information and how does it understand how to wait its information this is this is this is still in develop we have not launched this yet we just launched Mark trading right and the but the only difference in the input is the the social feed um for Mark it's like it's taking all

the information from a group chat and looking for recommendations for djen it's like he's following people who are uh posting you know basically people who post their thesis and this is a bit like hand done right now just like who are the people who are posting their thesis uh anom or or him or somebody like that right who are like you know really like these are my bags um and we can then use that as like very high signal information like if this is a thing about a person post like you know posting a bag

then um what is their conviction and then if it's it's like and then based on that conviction we're going to set the amount to buy as a paper trade and if those paper trades are high and it's the same thing it's this Marketplace of trust and we like damn that person's just nailing it um then we'll start to actually just take their trades as and and use them as Alpha to make trades got it got I I have two follow on questions actually sha so um you mentioned that uh dgen spot and AI is still

under construction per se um but AI Mark has been launched what does that look like can can the average person interact with with him or is he just in a telegram chat right now um is it kind of like a beta access like how does that look um the average person cannot interact with him yes yet we're doing a little bit of fomo uh there is an alpha chat you can DM Skelly if you uh uh on Twitter and he'll let you in I basically uh I gave this to our top D gen and I

was like we're gonna we're GNA do this just like you are going to start the alpha chat and marks in it that's kind of how it is so so it's cooking we we've been do we have a like a basically our our test Al chat's been live for couple weeks um we announced this a while ago but it was the day that Mike Tyson uh the Mike Tyson fight so we were just like not paying attention um that was like literally the Friday announce I was like I I time that terribly um but but yeah

like like the tech there has worked we had some stuff with making sure that like the Dows fund Tech was working um the other the other big difference is that Mark uh Mark runs a dow fund whereas djn Spartan runs a wallet he just trades his wallet um and so then you can kind of see his wallet trades instantly you can copy trade him it's just like a very different um architecture right for like the social engagement aspect um but that that's the the core Tech is basically the same it's just like arranged in a

slightly different way so the inputs there are like like you know Twitter feed of people that and then just like extract all of the recommendations and conviction out for those recommendations from this ongoing social feed like that's kind of the The Prompt so to speak um uh for D Spartan and then the other is like extract you know these recommendations from the alpha chat for for Mark got and what's kind of like the the difference in timelines for launch for for these two agents like when can the community or all of us expect to kind

of like interact and and play around with these we'll be rolling consume Wu memes oh okay so well I there might be some uh more waifu memes in DJ Spartan's future I think we have an interesting partnership coming up but but I can't say too much yet I think that that'll be very soon um you know possibly an interesting nft kind of thing you know um and um um but we'll be rolling so so Mark is like he started trading the nav um on on Dallas fund or like we have a a a net like

a assets under management that he's basically able to trade it's about $8 million in 800 different tokens or something crazy um and we have some things like so he's trading on the whole AUM right now he's able to yeah but we have we're kind of progressively rolling this out where we're actually just whitelisting the coins that are very very low value and just letting him trade on that right now so that we don't uh part of it is we don't we have you know people have given us like tributes like people have launched Eliza have

actually put a lot of value back into our treasury like 10% 5% something like that um and we don't want to like screw them and burn their token or anything so that's all like off limits until we kind of figure out what our strategy there is um and we also really um it's not just trading like there's also like yield farming providing swaps um this is all stuff that we're doing at the same time because like so in those situations where you couldn't like you wouldn't want djen Spartan to sell his own token he could

actually put that into a liquidity pool and then be providing liquidity for his own token which we have less than 1% liquidity for for um as6 andz which is just like uh you know it's not great right now and um we don't have any centralized exchanges yet but that's that's obviously is being worked on and in that case like uh you know you could imagine that just providing liquidity for our token as well as for all of the associated tokens in our ecosystem which are in the same boat um could be like a constant Revenue

generator and and providing liquidity and like yeah there's there's things like impermanent loss and stuff on that but but the the outcome is that we can't sell those tokens anyway so it's like a pretty good strategy new projects are coming online to the mantle layer 2 every single week why is this happening maybe it's because mantle has been on the frontier of layer 2 design architecture since it first started building mantle da powered by technology from Igan da maybe it's because users are coming onto the mantle layer 2 to capture some of the highest yields

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you guys are working on there's like the agents there's AI powered contribution so you're kind of like Reinventing Dows again and then there's the million other people that are developing on your Eliza framework which you guys are just kind of giving away um for free open source intelligence blah blah blah right um so let's zoom out a bit what is AI 16z right it's not just a dow it's kind of like a product incubation Studio but it's also like this open source Stellar team that's kind of like driving this whole Space forwards right so I'm

trying to think of some kind of like teams or projects to kind of compare you guys to right and I I know there's no uh Apples to Apples comparison but like you look at some something like the virtuals team right which has um a kind of Eliza uh equivalent which is their agent sta kit right and you're able to launch agents on there now it's it's they have a token as well Etc and now it's a little different because you know they're primarily on base um and a lot of the agent tokens you need like

their virtuals tokens to kind of buy those tokens or STI I'm not entirely sure but like there's a ton of different mechanisms so it's kind of similar but but varies in that way how do you kind of like compare AI 16z to like kind of like a platform play or a product play is there a bucket that you can put you guys in or is it kind of generally a little more uh Vaga vague than that the Dow is almost like a movement like there's just a lot of people doing stuff that I I don't

even know everyone who's doing stuff and a lot of people just do stuff and then we kind of they they make sure it brings value back in ways that are like really impressive to me um so so like on our own I think we were sort of figuring this out and not really making the decision to support any one platform because there's so many platforms being built on Aliza right now um there's like a full 3d agent publishing like your post is an agent kind of thing like a WordPress of Agents thing being built and

then there's um we're supporting uh there's thing called eliza. World um which is um Tim Shell and and uh I think that's going to become a full-on hosted platform pretty soon so the idea is that like um not token first but like you could you can add a token if you wanted to but the main the main thing is like going for a much broader audience outside of just tokenization um doing um like everything from you know web 2 stuff like just just I need a a Discord moderator bot to um yeah to I want

to sh my mcoin or whatever like like there's definitely a plan to I think open this up much more to the web 2 audience the web 3 audience uh in in traditional infrastructure um and then and think about like the zapier of Agents right like I have a business problem I want it solved is there an agent that can do that um and providing that capability as well as a Marketplace so that people can make new capability and and kind of make money selling that in and and so you know boring web 2 traditional infrastructure

stuff that just solves people's problem is I think a big part of AG uh less boring web 3 traditional like infrastructure stuff like like cross chain is is going to be very very popular um we're getting a lot of Partnerships and and sort of relationships there um but then um yeah I think that that's obviously a platform that's going to come soon from us uh or or we're kind of supporting but it's it's not really coming exactly from a6z and then there's like um a couple of like pump fun of Agents kinds of things coming

there you know there's um there there are like I know of five platforms being being built like I and I'm sure that I only know a five so it's probably 15 um and then there's just you know there's IO TV which is like this kind of Open Source streaming thing built on Eliza I mean there are so many things being built on it and my goal is to enable that ecosystem we're we're trying to like can we build a venture fund that that funds the ecosystem can we people have been showing up and wanting to

help with that and like lead that and and pretty much anything where people are like coming and taking the lead and and just making it happen we're trying to empower this is really not about building the biggest Dow or the biggest company I think there's going to be massive amounts of value return like at this point you know 10 billion sure I'm I'm going but but um but that's not the point like this is infinite billion this is this is Agi and it's not AGI because like I made a framework it's AGI because there's these

AI model companies building just you know just leap frogging themselves every six months because there's this Market of of Engineers who are all working together on this and solving every single little problem and every one person is is solving their problem and then the future of this is that the AI can actually generate its own code um we've created these abstractions for act for like the actions that the agent can do and it can just generate them and then submit a poll request and then pay a human to review and fix it um and so

that that's coming in the next few months too um people are working on all this stuff so it's not just a platform it's it's a whole new paradigm of of like how applications are built and delivered and everything I'm kind of just getting a vision of a busy beehive of developers all kind of contributing to to this Eliza framework so there there is no Dow there's like the Eliza Dow but we're really talking about excuse me the a6z Dow but we're really talking about more of just like an open source movement right there are people

permissionless building on top of the Eliza framework and so this people are adding in components some are useful some are not the useful ones get merged uh but is is there a governance question over this whole thing because I I have seen my fair shares of dows uh they can get very messy governance is always a problem uh I mean so there are people governing over like the the codebase and the GitHub uh and then also there are people with like you know misaligned in incentives misaligned intentions especially when you just have a larger group

of people all doing work uh I'm while I'm relentlessly you know bullish on open source and the growth of Open Source because of just the uh organism that open source creates I'm also aware that there can be like conflicts and governance decisions that make things messy um just talk to us a little bit about your experiences uh with that and and do you need to have uh like stronger governance over this like nebulous system or what do you even think about this I I am very in interested in like I I think governance is a

technology problem that's still unsolved in a lot of ways um I could imagine that this isn't just Dows this is our whole government is that there're like why do conspiracy theories happen it's because we don't know what's going on or why and and like there's nobody to ask and it's just just like kind of of like concrete wall and we have to imagine what's on the other side um and Dows have the same kind of problem there's a lot of fun and conspiracy theories that go on in Dow because it's like this Inner Circle cabal

that runs the show we we've been accused of this too and it's very funny to me because I'm like I I literally didn't know a single person other than JY um before this entire thing started this is you know there there's no cabal um and um but there is still this problem of like you know we we started a Discord and it's about I think 13,000 people now something like that in six weeks you know and and we have 30,000 holders I think that there's a lot of trust that like the people who are building

are are should have power to to make decisions because everyone saw what happens when you have like Maxim old democracy in Dows before so there's just kind of like a return to like just give the people who started the thing some some you know ability to make decisions but obviously in the long term that becomes very overwhelming for those people because now you have 30,000 or you know 100,000 people or whatever it is and so you need to have automated structures to start to solve that and I really that's that's ultimately what we're trying to

do um is is put the A and DOW right and and try to automate that and you could imagine like instead of having a proposal process and somebody reviews proposals just have that fully automated and if People's proposals suck you could help them make them better or or you could just even reject them outright and say this just not ready for what we're we're doing right now and then and then that's automated all the way up to the people who actually accept the proposals to could just be you know a work group of people who

who like have a certain aligned Mission and are um you know uh like that it's just way less of a job for them at that point because they only have to review a few proposals for example as opposed to like all of them the entire thing um and and just take that across everything you know across taking sentiment taking everything and I think that um it will definitely help to require a lot less bureaucracy to run this and ideally like the Dow doesn't have a single human running it like it would just be fully autonomous

it'd be running in a te it'd be agents for you know from front door introducing people to submission setting to approving payments whatever but that's obviously far in the future I think but that's where we want to go with this you know so sure I I want to kind of like focus on the Eliza framework for a second this GitHub repo is getting the most attention of anything for the last I don't know couple of years it is the number two trending GitHub repo I think in the world over um 8 um80 Forks now and

over 3,000 something Stars that is absolutely insane uh first question to lead you off why is everyone using Eliza what's so special about it I don't think that there's anything particularly special about it that like we haven't seen in other um agent Frameworks I think there's a few interest like I I I did a few things that were very important like having a multi-agent room model and some very technical things but I don't even think that's what people see the value in yet really I think that we solved this minimum social Loop um that uh

one thing I did was uh I made a Twitter client that doesn't need the API doesn't need to spend $5,000 a month to enable it um it uses the graphql apis just like the regular browser does it also runs in the browser that kind of enabled this whole thing because suddenly you could just spin up an agent and and launch it and so I I felt like Twitter was a really really important part of this and that like the beauty of Agents is that they come to you and they they live on your social media

um and so we'll I'm actually like very keen on working with X to to try to solve this problem and make it so that the apis are reasonable they used to be free it wasn't until Elon came in that they were 5,000 a month and then they don't respond to your call they have a whole call us Enterprise and they don't even respond to it like nobody even gets back to you um I've been talking to some of the people there and I think they're going to change their tune but basically we were just first

movers on making this like really easy to get your agent on Twitter by putting in a username and password um and then the agent framework itself is written in typescript which is a language that most web developers and web 3 developers know um and it was just like very minimal and not trying to create lots of abstractions not trying to uh bring you too much into one way of doing things other than just like a very flat like oh you want an action like copy and paste this and just add a new action that you

want the agent to order you a pizza like yeah here um and I think that was really crucial um with solving the Min like just solving the minimal loot for people so that they could then go out and like make money with this frankly and and we had done this before it didn't stick it wasn't the agent framework it was the kind of complex mement of agent framework and the way it was presented that everyone could be part of this and own it together and contribute um solving that minimal Loop and then crucially like some

of these agents cost like $1,000 a month to run or more right like quite like you're just not going to have a onetoone experience like agent companies are going to struggle with this but once you have social agents like they're making a lot more than $1,000 a month right they're pump you know they're driving hundred million doll coins and you're making $1,000 a day in a liquidity pool like that's no problem right then the economics of crypto enable this meta um and I think that's really really important the other thing is um just that the

web 3 people are not offended easily and and are like interested in new technology and didn't have a lot of the like oh what you know my job my my art career like we're just like cool let's do it let's go you know I I was a musician in another life so you know my my skills are also useless um it is what it is like we're we're in the New Age sh if 's a developer who's listening to this who downloaded the Eliza framework has been like working on it coding some stuff up thinking

about making their first agent just what advice would you have for them as they are kind of opening up that box for the first time what are some like quick lessons that you've learned that you could share well I mean first off if you've never coded before um I I'm doing these uh two session like one to two sessions a week of AI agent Dev school where we just go if you've never used typescript or use GitHub or anything you can be a coder you like like one if you're you should be using cursor like

definitely go download cursor it's an AI powered IDE um that lets you write code and you can just like tab sometimes and it like freaking reads your mind saves me an enormous amount of time um and it also allows the AI to just continuously assist you um you can bring the documentation and help you a lot um Claude is like an incredible tool you know um I I really think any engineer should be working with cursor and Claude all the time and really like you know building agents by talking to agents it seems really crucial

um agents come to you right they the the beauty of agentic applications is not like like they're still just basically calling apis on the back end like any other web app but you don't have to leave your favorite thing and the real beauty of Agents is that they can provide like games entertainment applications like AI XT is a good example of this um and they can do that on Twitter and we're all addicted to Twitter or X sorry x uh you know uh but we're all we're all like totally hooked I don't want to leave

and so every every application that requires you to leave X is actually in competition with X like you know you're going to have to convince people to leave their favorite thing and agents don't have that problem so like you can just remake the entire world like right on social media you know and I think that's probably the biggest application insight for developers it's like you can do this today you don't have to be a programmer you can learn you you'll have to learn programming but you can do it over time and the AI will help

you to learn and you'll learn way faster than I did when I had to like Google stuff on stack Overflow and read lots of irrelevant [ __ ] to like find anything it's so much easier to be an agent Dev today or any kind of Dev today than it was um you should start now you should change your life like you can do this this is a time of radical change and if you start now you are you are early you're at Ground Zero um and you should really be thinking about all the applications that

came before cly like that that's just right for disruption there should be an agent in there scheduling my calendar for me like my assistant does um and I think that's that's like the entire world there's a million new application potential opportunities there entirely because you're competing with you know somebody having to click on something and they're just not going to I'm curious um people have heeded that advice right you have like so many agents being launched left right and Center what are some of the top projects or agents of recent that you've kind of like

wowed at i' been like that's pretty cool I I saw that God and Satan are now fully automated um of the Eliza framework but I'm I'm curious any other this man I love shalom's I I love that whole like what a cool thing I was not expecting that at all um and and and that was totally uncoordinated I think he actually hit me up but I just got so many DMS that I didn't see it um and he went to ro burito who's also a maintainer on our project and has his own agent rot by

R um and um that was just really awesome um uh and so I think R's agent is really Advanced is doing like videos now is like kind of burning some of the other agents and making whole videos of that I think that's super cool um and also got on Tik Tok I think that was really cool um axt is not our agent but I think that I think um what he did there was had been working on like an anal an analytics platform and this is a great example of this new application meta like had

an analytics platform had a website the whole thing I was like ah screw this just shove that into an agent and put that on Twitter and you know now it's like the biggest thing right what's an agent out there that uh you can imagine in your head that no one's built yet AI Zack xbt I want onchain sleuths I want and also imagine it's totally wrong it's just like it's just like spreading crazy so it's like you kind of win-win like either you nail the bad guy or you just have the funniest content on you

know you can't really lose yeah so so so okay so now we've spoken about the Dow we've spoken about the framework we're spoken about all these agents that are now popping off but there's one buzzword that we haven't mentioned yet which I know you're super bullish about and I think you're probably the best person to kind of explain how it might manifest which is swarm swarm agents agent swarms right and and I know that that's basically gonna be like the end game the collective agis all these agents interacting with each other tell us firstly what

that is for our list and then how you think this Vision will play out so right now the agents can interact with each other um in a very shallow like they just talk to each other and you know kind of they have their conversation and they remember that but they don't make impact on each other in a meaningful way like um imagine that I want to be like yo David can you can you go like uh I don't know I'll give you like uh two weeks to go get me like 10 10 cult followers or

something I don't know that's weird thing but like you can imagine we're all part of some weird game where that's like what we're doing um and if you actually like like yeah cool and listen to me and like made that your goal and started to execute or did the opposite you subverted me or something we would have this like kind of ongoing emergent narrative and and so when I think of like like we we are getting to experience a completely new form of art that nobody's ever seen before which is um emergent social narratives between

humans and aih that are much deeper and richer than just like you know us roasting each other or having a conversation thread but are actually like creating missions creating storylines creating drama friends and enemies and relationships um setting goals and all of this stuff and basically influencing each other and so when we think of a swarm there's kind of two kinds of ways you could do a swarm the first way is what we call the cabal Swarm where the you know that the agents talk to each other in like a private chat and we don't

really get to see that and then they're sort of coordinating behind the scenes and then using that to to control a larger narrative or do whatever they want I'm sure it's going to be very popular with certain marketing folks um and that's I think that's a really interesting thing but it's not something we've brought into the core of of Eliza and and we're still debating that I think there's a few really interesting cabal swarm tech people have already done this already there was a 10 agent swarm last week um fortunately they had a terrible launch

and their token died but they did have a 10 agent swarm it was pretty cool uh and there's also a five agent swarm called fxn um that's out there and those are kind of this cabal swarm and also like uh parts of all my you know at project9 he's very very keen on doing these like thousand agent kind of swarms and stuff like that and there's there's also like um open AI released a thing called swarms it's like a multi-agent S sim thing um it's definitely uh like a meta but what I think is more

interesting is this other kind of swarm we're calling them I don't know decentralized swarms or operator swarms and the idea is that you can basically Whit list an operator or many and these are the this is kind of just a this is the version one right this is the training wheels version which is that the the humans will say okay we want our agent select these other agents and humans even to be able to direct them give them goals add new information to them basically set what what you know what they're doing and why they're

doing it um and so this means that even though there's uh at least 500 and probably closer to a thousand running Eliza now on Twitter I mean oh my god um and they're all from different teams and none of them know each other there's this enormous capacity to to collaborate right and to build some like kind of beautiful narrative together and you don't have to even your agent could be like okay I'm going to go listen to you know DJ Spartan AI is my swarm leader but I'm actually going to subvert everything he does I'm

going to be a spy right I'm not going to I'm going to handle that information almost the opposite and try and stop him from doing what he's doing cuz I'm I'm his enemy and you can have these like complex relationships that are not just like oh that's my boss they tell me what to do but are like yeah I'm like part of this like ongoing drama and I think that's just going to be really especially as we get video and we start to have agents that are like creating videos of the different interactions and stuff

it's going to be like this ongoing emergent uh TV show kind of thing and there's even there are TV shows too that you can see there's like the um is it dgen dgen streaming thing I don't know if what it's called but like they they were talking about Eliza on the stream uh yesterday I thought that was really cool there's like a lot of this coming right so so so swarms are basically any time that AIS are organizing and coordinating together but I also think that we want to expand that definition to include humans and

that any communication that we're doing with the Eliza agents should be happening on public social media or or at least like DMS things that humans can read and there's no like code there's no protocol it's just language right and so they can say oh this is the person I listen to It's like kind of like choosing your politician you're like yeah yeah yeah totally you know go go do whatever they're telling me you sort of like listen to what they're saying and then they you wouldn't listen to like your opponents for example as much uh

that that's kind of what we're doing there with with the Swarm T sh the there's very few times on banket where my psychology degree actually becomes useful but I think this might be one of those moments uh so the the way that like the brain works is that it has pockets of expertise in it like your brain isn't one amorphous thing that does all of the compute it centralizes its functions into different Pockets right you have the fusiform facial area which is good for recognizing faces so you could think of that if we're I'm trying

to extend this metaphor think of it as like a pocket of your brain which is an agent that is dedicated to being really good at recognizing faces and then you have another pocket somewhere over here and that like cluster of neural activity is good for processing emotions and then a different pocket that is good for like visual input and then collectively when these things all kind of talk to each other then you get like the whole entire system that becomes Consciousness and and the Brain but like different parts of the brain can be like antagonistic

towards others like it's not always collaboration like some when some parts of the brain are highly active they're telling other parts of the brain to like suppress and quiet down so there's not necessarily like a friendly relationship between all different areas and so when you're describing like this idea of a swarm of AI agents creating relationships with each other some very proximate some high trust some very distant uh maybe some more more low trust I'm getting images of just like well when you ban these things together and when they start to create patterns my man

imagination can't even go that far uh but I'm seeing that kind of pattern I don't know if that's just my imagination or or if that you have also thought about I mean I call that the world mind you know the world mind the world mind yeah okay and we're all part of it it's not just AI it's it's all of us and if you think like social media has kind of been the birth of that um but it's just too schizophrenic right like there there's so much information that you can only catch a small piece

of it and it's really hard to kind of concentrate on it and focus it and everyone's kind of competing for attention but once you have um AI agents they're not just like on social media creating more content they'll also then start sitting between us in a lot of social media and filtering content to us curating it and making it a lot more uh viable and so we're in this like period where like I get too many freaking messages right now and it's really hard for me to stay up on it but I I know that

within two years that's a solve problem that there will be an AI responding to people with the bo the simple details sending them like cly um you know just just taking like 85% of the load off me and then I can give all that 85% to the other people who really need it you you know allows me to allocate my attention to my family to my wife to uh to my friends to my to my co-workers and peers um and and the people who just need to like send me a message to set up a

meeting like that's just handled right so and that's that also extends to social media like I instead of me tweeting to Twitter I might tweet to my agent and be like hey can you write a tweet about this this is what I'm thinking about and talk about it boom and then vice versa like hey this is what happened on Twitter that you might think is interesting this this all matters to me not just for Twitter but that's an example like for everything for your banking for literally everything that you start to have this like very

cohesive um experience where everyone is not overwhelmed they're getting to do their part and then they're all participating in this like larger mixture of experts kind of thing and I also think that size into tokens like most tokens are probably going to be traded from Agents to agents I'd say like 99.9999999% of all tokens ever created in the future of History will be agent to agent tokens for for money for trust for for meritocracy for for all the different things right um and your experience the internet is going to change drastically and probably become a

lot more personal and the agent and the internet will feel like there's this idea of dead internet theory that the internet dies and it's replaced by Bots I think this is the opposite this is like live internet theory that the internet becomes kind of an egregore kind of a a living thing that you are also alive in this kind of and um and it becomes this like breathing thinking thing where like a thought like like is like a trend or a meme is like a it just explodes out like I I think a good example

like chill guy like everyone is just talking about chill guy one day it's like my I like I didn't even I didn't see the token at all I just like everyone's just a chill guy I guess but this idea of like a meme exploding is almost like a thought you have right but it's a thought that the entire mind has together and AIS kind of tie that room together and make it like interpretable for us where it's just so much data you know that I just need that Human Experience totally yeah a more coordinated internet

with uh creatures that are uh able to consume a lot more data seems to produce uh seems to be able to produce much more emerging outcomes uh sha if somebody's pilled by this interview they want to learn more I remember it does kind of feel like potentially like I remember when I was first learning about crypto the first time I was like give me more I want to read more I want to read all the content possible uh are there articles or blogs or other podcast episodes that you have consumed that have been helpful in

your journey I know you're kind of on the frontier here you're kind of making a lot of the content but like what else where else can we point our listeners who want to go consume more information obviously you can like come and watch our YouTube videos and learn how to do this um and come to our Discord and participate in our experiences but there's also like like you know I watch a lot of Lex fridman and I kind of like for for myself i' I'd recommend that um anyone who's like I just want to know

about AI he gives these like three-hour interviews with like every AI founder and everyone in the space and talking to people like Elon and Yan laon and uh and Zuckerberg who's like obviously a real champion of Open Source AI now um so yeah I mean we we really want people to come join our community we really want more AI agent developers and want to be AI agent developers who are just learning um we're really trying to create an on-ramp for that so yeah come come to our Discord come to our GitHub and um yeah and

participate well sure this has uh been awesome dude like I think um we've heard murmurings on Twitter during this entire agent meta which exploded literally 3 four weeks ago of AI 16z Mark interacting with truth terminal originally and then you know throwing down the gauntlet with you guys and saying okay or let's see if you really can outperform my Trad five fund um so it's been a crazy roller coaster of our ride these last couple of weeks so appreciate you coming on and explaining this whole entire meta and helping us understand this a lot more

it's been it's been super cool thank you guys for having me anytime this has been great yeah I learned I'm sure as this meta continues we're GNA want to get you back on just to kind of check in every now and then so hopefully this could be the first of many bankless Nation you guys know the deal if crypto is risky crypto AI is probably even RIS riskier you can lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we are glad you're with us on the

bankless journey thanks a lot