Bill Gates on Trump, Musk, U.S.-China and More | WSJ

- It's this whole thing of Asperger's, we're on the spectrum, is a fairly new thing, you know? - Yeah. - Used to be autism had a fairly narrow definition that was clearly identifiable.

But this idea that if you're slow socializing, I have a behavior where I rock that bothers people, but that's also common, so-called self-stemming type things. So I realized, "Wow, there's a bit of a pattern match there. " - [Emma] In his upcoming book, "Source Code," Bill Gates reveals new details about his childhood, including the realization that were he a kid today, he would be diagnosed on the autism spectrum.

- Looking back on that, because I didn't behave in a standard way and yet that deep concentration that got applied to math and science, and eventually to all those programming experiences I had, that became a strength. - A strength that changed the world and made Gates among the richest and most influential leaders of our time. (pensive music) I caught up with him in California to speak with him about his early years and on the issues of the day as Trump takes office with tech leaders lining up to support him.

Did your parents, like, did they ever worry about you? I mean, you, you used to slip out of the bedroom window and go and code in the middle of the night. Do you think they worried about you or do you think they were just like, "Nah.

" - They worried about: Would I fit in? The two things they did. One, sending me to a therapist who got me thinking about how I applied my energy and then sending me to a really great school.

- Yeah. - Those were great for me. - It was at school that Gates first met Paul Allen, his Microsoft co-founder.

The two were among the first tech titans. It seems to me there's been a culture shift, though, in Silicon Valley. Perhaps it characterized it, as it used to be, sort of tech nerds and now it's very much tech bros.

Do you sort of feel like you're still part of it? - Well, I think they're still nerds, as far as I can tell. They don't deserve some new term.

Jesus, they're just as nerdy as they ever were. I mean, come on. Yes, the vision that Paul Allen and I had at age 18 that the digital revolution would change the world more than any other thing.

That's really been born out. The most valuable companies in the world are the children of that insight, and they provided super innovative products. And so of course, the tech people are richer and understanding, "Okay, what's their next thing?

" Primarily AI, in this case, has become more important. Early in the days of Microsoft, I didn't believe in having an office in Washington D. C.

I later learned that was a mistake, but I had kind of a purist view that I didn't need to engage in talking to the government. - Have you met Donald Trump since the election? - Yeah, I had a chance to go have a long and actually quite intriguing dinner with him.

- What did you discuss? What was intriguing? - Well, we touched on a lot of things.

It was over three hours, to my surprise. It was just he and I, his Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, and the person that helps manage things for me, Larry Cohen. So the four of us sat there, and it was quite wide-ranging.

Global health's the area that I work in, and such amazing things have happened and can happen there. I spoke a lot about HIV and that the foundation's literally working on a cure for that. We're at an early stage, and so he, in the COVID days, accelerated the vaccine innovation.

So I was asking him if maybe the same kind of thing could be done here, and we both got, I think, pretty excited about that. We talked about polio, where we're very close to getting that done. But if you stop, it'll spread back.

And so I explained why it's been tough in Pakistan and Afghanistan. We've had cases show up in Gaza, we have cases in Africa, and he was fascinated to hear what he could do to maximize the chance that during the next four years, that incredible milestone will be achieved. I felt like he was energized and looking forward to helping to drive innovation.

I was frankly impressed with how well he showed a lot of interest in the issues I brought up. - What do you make of RFK and vaccines, and what he's saying about it and the position he's been given in this incoming administration? - Well, he wrote a book saying that Tony Fauci and I kill millions of children and make billions of dollars with vaccines.

And people can judge for themselves whether that's correct or not. - Ahead of Trump's election, The Wall Street Journal reported Gates donated around $50 million towards a pro-Harris super PAC. But you didn't actually ever publicly endorse her.

Why was that? - In my role as chairman of the Gates Foundation, we've had incredible relationships with every administration. The progress since year 2000, cutting childhood death in half, cutting HIV deaths in half, that's due to partnerships with rich world governments where the US is, in absolute, the most generous.

And so I look forward to working together with every administration. - [Emma] So, there's obviously another big tech titan close to this administration, Elon Musk. - Yes!

(audience cheering) - [Emma] When was the last time you spoke to Elon? - Hmm, I haven't spoken directly to him. It may have been about 18 months, but I've known Elon over there.

He's a member of the Gideon Pledge, and I admire a lot of the great work he's done. - What do you think of the way he's using his platform to influence the political landscape? - Well, I think the idea that.

. . looking at government expenditures on a sort of zero-based budgeting approach could be a valuable thing.

I'm amongst the people who think the deficit needs to be brought down because otherwise, it will create a financial problem for us. And so that effort could come up with some good things. I'm not trying to talk about European politicians like he is.

So some of that surprises me a bit, but wow, he finds time to do a lot of things. - If you were Elon Musk and you were put in charge of the DOGE Project, where would you be looking to make savings? - Well, given the numbers that they've tossed around, they'll have to look at everything, including pension, defense, healthcare.

My view is most departments there probably are 10 to 15%. I do worry a little bit that if you say, "Hey, let's completely get rid of things, some of the things that have long-term benefits. " I obviously believe in HIV medicines, where the US is keeping tens of millions of people alive.

And if you cut those off, not only would they die when we have a cure on its way, but the negative feelings you'd have say in Africa would be worse than never having done the thing at all. So the parts of the budget I know well, yes, you could optimize, but I hope the value system still includes the half a percent that saves all those lives. - The Journal previously reported on Gates' ties to Jeffrey Epstein, including that Epstein threatened Gates over an affair he had.

The two met a few times, Gates says, to discuss Philanthropy. Do you think, looking back at that moment, that you were being played? - Well, Jeffrey, in retrospect, I was foolish to spend any time with him, and he sort of got time with various people by spending time with other people.

So yes, I think I was quite stupid. I thought it would help me with global health Philanthropy. In fact, it failed to do that, and it was just a huge mistake.

- Has it made you more wary of connections? - Definitely. - [Emma] Yeah.

- I mean, are you kidding? (Bill laughing) - Now, you're not elected, but I think it's fair to say that you could probably pick up the phone to any world leader out there. Who's the last world leader that you spoke to?

- Because of how engaged the foundation is in these global health issues, I talked to world leaders a lot. So in the last month, I've talked to President Macron, Ursula von der Leyen. - Do any of them ring you up and ask you for advice on how to handle Donald Trump?

- No, I've never had that. I've had people be quizzical about maybe what they should do, but. .

. They're on their own on that one. - As far as China's concerned, what do you think about the direction that U.

S. -China relations are going in? - Well, I think it'd be great if we had more win-win elements in the relationship.

That seems like a pretty small thing, but if you think about climate or if you think about healthcare innovation or certain kinds of terrorism, including not only nuclear, but also bio-terrorism, being prepared for epidemics. We'll see if how the two big powers can get along. - Mm-hmm, you mentioned a number of scary prospects, so what keeps you awake at night?

- The chance of a natural pandemic in the next four years is somewhere between 10 and 15%. And it'd be nice to think we're actually more ready for that than we were last time, but so far we're not. - You really think we're not?

- No, no, we're absolutely not. - [Emma] Why not? - People, rather than having a consensus about what tools are missing, are mostly still replaying the various mistakes that were made.

So, I wouldn't say that we're as far along as you'd expect after trillions of dollars and millions of lives have been lost. - While Gates is known for looking at what's next, the book, he says, has given him time to reflect on the past. With this greater understanding that you earned from writing the book, has that brought some sort of wisdom, do you think?

- Well, hopefully, as you get older, you're more reflective and you have wisdom. I often find myself in meetings talking about similar situations that I dealt with that either didn't succeed or did succeed. So you get into what they often talk about as a more generative mode, and writing these books certainly fits that approach.

Although I think, "Am I looking backwards too much? " Because there's so much exciting stuff still to be done.