Is Christianity Good For Black People?

the courageous conversations conference is so important because where else can we have these types of conversations with these types of thought leaders about these types of topics it is a unique and a rare opportunity to come and hear voices that have been trained in diverse places coming together to ask these kind of critical questions in humility and love and conviction and en courage if you're on the fence in a broader sense about any questions you have to do with the faith this is the right place this is modeling for us how do we live in

a world in which there's a lot of different perspectives and a lot of different points of view even in the church and how do I navigate that and not have to compromise what I believe but that is exactly why all of us need to be attending the courageous conversations conference because in a world full of crucifixion somebody needs to start having a conversation where else can you come and get both perspectives from predominantly black and brown leaders thinkers Scholars preachers pastors there's nowhere else you can go you need to be here at the courageous conversations

[Music] you3 good morning we are really excited to have a wonderful conversation around the subject is Christianity good for black people I'm really excited about our esteemed panelists and the wonderful Insight that they are going to bring to this discussion uh before we jump in we'll I pass around and you just say your name and we will jump right into the questions starting with Dr franois Willie franois good morning Gabby I should flip this over yes good morning Gabby kajer wils good morning Micah Edmonson is my name good morning my name is Tiffany Gil thank

you thank you all well as we begin first question I want to ask you all for some reason the question is Christianity good for black people seems sort of unfounded uh all they've known people is the black church but to to get us up to speed where does this question come from in other words what is this question's Origins and whoever wants to jump in can Jump Right In well I'll go ahead and jump in I mean I think the question comes from the very real fact that in the Name of Christ whether or not

that's actual Christianity is something we will talk about but that in the Name of Christ Europeans and european-americans whether it's from those who were involved in the slave trade or those who rioted um right here at the nation's capital on January 6th a few years ago have done things specifically done things to oppress African-Americans um and so the thought is the argument I guess from that question is why would black people then identify with the religion of their oppressors um and I think that you know and this is hopefully something we'll get to explore but

that that question is overly simplistic and in many ways just reifies what the enslavers what those who have oppressed black people have done that when we actually look at the history of the black church and what a formation in Christ has done for our people we will see I think in many ways that the black church is probably one of the strongest Witnesses of what Christ has done in this country um and that it's actually a miracle and that without the black church without a rooting and grounding in Christianity I'm not sure that African-American people

would have endured as long as we have amen amen um I I think I would mention that um even the white supremacist slaveholders knew that they were distorting uh the Christian faith um uh Anglican Planters would read uh every Lord's day would read the words of the Apostles Creed um that said I believe in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church church that word catholicity meaning the spiritual tangible economic social blessings of God's Redemptive Freedom was intended not merely for one people but for all people people from every tribe nation and tone and yet and

because they read the Apostles Creed uh they actually knew that Christianity had the power to upend their racial cast system they knew this uh in volume two of his history of the United States as a historian named George banro which who asserts essentially that early colonial Planters were afraid to administer baptism to enslave people because the prevailing belief was that Christian baptism would automatically manumit the enslaved person and he says this quote the idea was so deep and so General that South Carolina in 1712 Maryland in 1715 and Virginia repeatedly from 1667 to 1748 said

forth enactments that baptism did not confer Freedom so the idea was so prevailing that that that baptism and Christianity actually frees people socially that the legislator had to come in and say no no no no that's not what it does that's not what it does and and and and what happened is the the colonial Planters took their religious marging orders not from the church but from the state the state was the the was the one that actually told them um how to understand the Christian faith in 1667 V Virginia legislature said this it says whereas

some doubts have Arisen whether children that are slaves by birth and by the charity and piety of their owners May partakers of the Blessed sacraments of baptism should by virtue of their baptism be made free it is enacted and declared by this Grand assembly and the authority thereof that the confirming of baptism does does not alter the the condition of the person as to his bondage or freedom and they took their marching orders again and in that place from from the state rather than from from the church um but the witness as my dear sister

just said the witness of of of the gospel and the power of Christianity was that despite the Distortion of the slaveholder Christ made himself clear in his freedom to the enslaved and so you know you can read uh the the the work of of the late uh Albert Robo that talks about the invisible institution and how uh our enslaved ancestors actually knew the real Jesus and and actually understood the real gospel and after a long day of of backbreaking toil would would sneak off into the woods in order to worship Jesus the way he ought

to be worshiped and to preach the gospel the way it ought to be preached and so that's a powerful witness that Christianity is in fact good for black people that is the real real Christianity thank you thank you absolutely um I would add I want to affirm this question as a positive question and so any Theologian um that does the work of Liberation um has to apply uh reading strategies which are called hermeneutics of Suspicion and so I want us to begin here uh this is the time of conference that allows for questions I want

us to affirm the question because it is important for us to interrogate is this really what they say it is right uh that that work that hermeneutic of Suspicion is what really liberates us to discover uh Jesus of the Bible and not Jesus of the state right and so uh my my short answer and we'll go deeper is that when black folks are able to uncover uh the true liberating witness the Luke 4:18 missional reason why Jesus comes uh to set captives free and to give sight to the Blind and and and to release the

year of the Lord's favor when we realize that Christ comes to undo all the stuff that tries to keep us bound then it is necessarily a good thing for black folks to be Christian because we are following the master Liberator and we employ the same hermeneutic of suspicion that Jesus comes uh to undo and to say if you are suspicious if this is how uh people should be treated uh you are right to be suspicious because folks are not to be bound but in Galatians 5 it is for Freedom that we have set them free

and so submit not to a yoke of slavery and so um the answer the short answer is yes it is good when we follow uh the true liberating practices of Jesus Christ as Christians um and when we keep our hermeneutic of Suspicion um even in 20123 when folks try to take us back uh to the way the state would rather U ize uh Christianity as opposed to why Christ came uh for the purposes of Liberation salv salvation uh Redemption and life I think I think it's an important question uh for for many of the reasons

that that Reverend Gabby offers to us but particularly what what Reverend Gil uh raises for us not Reverend did I mtitle you I'm I'm sorry doc what Dr Gil gives us uh is that we really have to interrogate if what we actually call Christianity has anything to do with Jesus right uh because there's something in the American context that likes to talk about Jesus the Christ without talking about Jesus the carpenter right and the reason why I underline Jesus the carpenter because there has been this organized conspiracy for uh almost 2,000 years to make Jesus

white right uh and not just make Jesus white but to make Jesus a American and so part of what this question helps us to in interrogate is what are we going to do with this Americanized white Christ that keeps being shoved down our throats by white churches and by certain forms of of black churches so it helps to raise the question for me on when we talk about Christianity what are we actually talking about because when I look at the type of Faith trajectory that I hope I'm on it doesn't look like the faith trajectory

that we find from uh certain people people who live under the banner of Christianity but actually do not practice the love liberating love ethic of the very Jesus that they say they follow and so we're in a particular time where it's imperative for us yes to celebrate that we've been saved by Jesus but at some point we got to save Jesus from the church right and and and when I say save Jesus from the church we have to save Jesus from this state sponsored form of Christianity that only cares about two policies that limit what

people do with their bodies and limit other things that people try to do uh and not understanding that Jesus does come from this very liberative ethic the other thing is to talk about the fact that making Jesus white is also to deny the Hebrew of Jesus and when I'm talking about the Hebrew of Jesus I'm really talking about the africanness of Jesus because Jesus is an afroasiatic brother who lives under uh a colonial settler Colonial oppression who comes from a crucified class it's easy for us to get to talk about the crucifixtion as if it's

only something that Jesus experienced without realizing that Jesus comes from people who were crucified on a daily basis right and so without that kind of historical context and to celebrate the africanness of Judaism and Christianity without without honoring the fact that there is an American conspiracy to make Jesus white it's a very important question because maybe what we call Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus the carpenter at all all right thank you so let me take this deeper so when we look at Christianity as an institutionalized religion in America we can all agree that

it has been something that has been harmful to black people uh but we have seen research that talks about uh Christianity African Roots the presence of blacks in the Bible and God's salvific work through Jesus for all nations with this being the case why do you think uh people still cling to the fallacy that Christianity is a white man's religion can I can I say something to speak to that um so I when so I think the the premise of the question uh said you know Christianity but I I mean I think here we in

this nation we have christianities right we have we have christianities and we've always had christianities I mean as long as we have had enslaved people who are calling out to Christ for their Liberation we've had christianities multiple plural and so as we think about the Christianity of Harry Tubman and Frederick Douglas and Sojourner Truth and Mariah Stewart and Alexander cruml and Fanny L hammer and Ella Baker and Rosa Parks and MLK that's a that's a different Christianity than the oppressor Christan Christianity right so I think we got to talk about that and I think so

I just want to make sure that as we as we um as we sort of interrogate the question I I don't want to say I don't want to seed the title Christianity over to the oppressor Christianity right I I don't want to say that what Christianity is is what these white folks do no that's not true at all you know um because Christian because to be a Christian is to be Anointed with the anointing of the carpenter from Nazareth to be Anointed with with the anointing of the one who who willingly stepped into the cast

system on the bottom of the cast system and who was willingly crucified so that we might be free so um to to to demonstrate solidarity with us and to overcome on our behalf right and so um so again I I want to I want to talk about the Christianity of that Messiah right rather than just the fact of it being weaponized against us part of part of part of the reason why I want to do that is because I don't want to always Center white folks as if you know we can't really have a conversation

without really dealing with them and talking about what they've done their misbehaviors right I mean it's not to say I'm not I'm not trying to be naive about that I understand that we're in a context and I understand that we got to respond to our context and I understand that Christianity um the is the power of Our Lord to actually liberate us and free us it's it's an emancipatory uh reality absolutely absolutely and um but but I I do think that we have a space that we ought to have a space to be able to

have this conversation without always sort of having their Distortion of our faith at the center of our conversation I I think that's it excellent excellent point and to your question uh Dr Watson the the reason why people assert that Christianity is a white man's religion is because of the arrogance of whiteness we have to think about when this nation is being constructed in our pledge pledge of allegiance is one nation under God on our money is in God we trust and so the arrogance of whiteness is to put Christ as a cloak over the actual

inhumane ways that this nation was organized but it makes them feel better right uh I'll give a non-biblical example uh there are a few different kinds of mac and cheese there's craft easy mac mac and cheese there's baked mac and cheese that goes in the oven craft easy mac is in a little blue box probably cost you about2 $3 you pour it on the top stove top add whatever they add and all of a sudden you've got some runny Easy Mac or your family and them your mama and them your Grandmama and them will cut

up some sharp cheddar cheese a a and make sure that they have the macaroni noodles and make sure it goes in the oven and pulls it out now if you encounter somebody on your job who wants to do a potluck and folks sign up for what they want to bring and somebody raises their hand and says I'll bring the mac and cheese I would wager that black folks are going to assume it's going to look one way and other folks are going to assume it's going to look another way if craft Easy Mac shows up

in the tubberware you going to be mad but they're both called mac and cheese neither person is incorrect in what they call it but they are very different consistencies very different experiences very different traditions and you can't go and buy uh oven mac and cheese in one package and so similarly to the point of christianities there are varying ways that Jesus has been packaged and I want to suggest to us that white Christianity is Easy Mac it's easy to do you put it on top you stir it up a little bit in God we trust

one nation under God and everything else that you do you hide behind that label but black Christianity requires some sweat and requires some recipes that have been passed down verbally and not written down requires some ways of figuring out the real real and presenting that to our people and so what I want to offer is the reason why folks think it's the white man's religion is because the white man has been arrogant enough to suggest that the only kind of mac and cheese is Easy Mac when we know that baked mac and cheese exist and

taste better well Oh [Applause] Glory I I I appreciate the mac and cheese analogy and one of the things that I want to sort of bring us back to I I know we're very 21st century people and we think we have H A heightened sense of intellect we like to think of ourselves as our ancestors wildest dreams as if they didn't have any of their own um and and I want to say that I think we actually need to go back to look at the invisible Church Church the enslaved church because one of the things

that's a Marvel to me is that they were able to discern what real Christianity was even when it was being presented to them in ways that were not the Full Gospel and the reason for that is that and and I want us to think back to this why literacy was so um was so dangerous right while they were laws against Literacy for enslaved people had everything to do with the fact that they were trying to keep enslaved people from the word of God Amen because they knew that once they redirect and were able to read

the Bible for themselves and see the god of the Bible not the one that was being caricatured to them as if you know the only thing was slaves of your Masters when they got to see the totality of the word of God is when they were able to see the truth I think about this story there was an enslaved man who ran away a man named Henry ainson who ran away from Virginia and when he got to the north and he began to Worship in a Congregation of free blacks one of the things he said

he said yeah back there they didn't preach the whole gospel to us amen and so I think that's important for us to understand just how much it was rud Ed in them understanding and knowing the word of God for themselves and what Grieves me is that in our fancy 21st century ancestors dream that we all think we're living in where we have all kinds of Bible translations where we got the Bible on our pocket in our hands that we would allow excuses to get us from reading the word of God and learning who God is

for himself so I think we actually need to go to learn from our um our enslaved Master enslaved Master Lord our enslaved ancestors to be able to say they had a hunger for the word of God I I think of these stories during Reconstruction when enslaved people were free that the first things they wanted to do and they built these educational institutions in their churches the first things they did were build churches right here in Richmond um there's a church that was built from enslaved people they literally would go to work all day as sharecroppers

come home and build a church and one of the things they did was use the church for their spiritual sustenance as well as their educational sustenance and one of the things you would see you know 80-year-old great grandmothers alongside their six-year-old great grandchildren learning how to read and write and when they would ask these people why they were trying to learn to read at this old age like you haven't learned to read this whole time they said I want to read the Bible for myself and so I think we could we do well to have

that hunger for the word of God because that's really when they saw where their Liberation came from that's right that's right I so so I think so Howard Thurman says that there's a difference between religion about Jesus and the religion of Jesus right uh the religion about Jesus just gives us jesus' biography uh some places where his feet trod where he healed uh how he was born how he died but the religion of Jesus is actually invested in those letters that older Bibles used to have in red right and so part of what Christianity has

to be connected to if it's going to be about the way of J and to also honor the fact that Jesus never called what what he was doing Christianity right it was called the way right and the way doesn't seem to look anything like what we currently call Christianity right because Christianity has been allied with power it's been allied with whiteness it's been allied with maleness has been allied with all these other forms of of identity markers that actually don't honor those teachings that we actually find in red and and and I and I always

wonder like what makes you a disciple if you're not actually interested in studying the teachings of the person you're following right like to know someone's biography does not make you a disciple of that person right if that was the case my mother would be a disciple of Marvin Gay ARA Franklin right if all you needed to do was know some some one's biography right there has to be a curriculum that you invest yourself in and fortunately that has been curated for us in red letters so we actually know what the content of the way should

be and that's not what we often see in Americanized forms of Christianity are we actually invested in so why are is is Christianity seen as the white man's religion or the religion of whiteness is because it is easy and it is Costless just to learn Jesus story without actually putting your body in the game to live his teachings right to live the way he actually live to have the faith of Jesus and not just the faith about Jesus and and and and how do we get there and and I I want to say this also

is is that I don't think it is important to talk about what white people are doing I think it is important for us to name the way whiteness works right and I make a distinction between white people in whiteness because whiteness is an ideology it's a Doctrine it's a way of understanding the world that negates Black Beauty black Joy black Freedom black love black salvation black hope right it's it's a it's a way of knowing and a way of being in the world and whiteness is not limited to white people because whiteness inhabits black bodies

all the time right and so but and because whiteness as an ideology which has nothing to do with ancestry nothing to do with skin color is demonic and it must be exercised like we would do every other demon right like I think as as people who are black PE this is what black people have done well we have been political and economic exorcists right that we know how to cast out demons that aren't just spiritual but demons that are also political and demons that are also economic right so in that brush Harbor right outside of

the Gaze of whiteness our ancestors weren't just converted to Christianity they converted Christianity itself to actually look like the very Carpenter that the religion says as follows yeah all right so we kind of hit a little bit of this some of you kind of started touching on some of this but um let me ask you this way uh how is Christianity specifically good news for black people it's good news for black people because it's um it's a Christianity that's that's a bottom up reality it's a bottomup reality so we worship a God who stepped into

the place of black people who stepped to into the B into the bottom of the cast system right and and died the death of a slave right and and then and then got up on the third day right with all power in his hand to overcome right the cast system and then gave gave us that power right so um so it is a it is a bottom up uh reality this is the this is the way in which um this is the way in which Mary understood the good news right she said she said he

she said he has scattered the proud and the imaginations of their hearts he has put down the mighty from their seats he has exalted the humble and meek he has filled the Hungry with good things and the rich he has sent away empty right so so that that is good news I mean that's the gospel that the slaveholder was afraid to share with the slave and took out of the slave Bible because they knew that this is the kind of news that actually empowers and ennobles people on the bottom this is the same theme that

came out in the beattitudes when Jesus said blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness that word righteousness dioses means Justice blessed are those who hunger and thirst after Justice for they shall be satisfied right so um so this is a this is a uh this is is good news that speaks directly to our bondage it is an emancipatory uh reality it's God's power to free us and God could have declared salvation in any number of ways but God intentionally chose to declare salvation as Liberation and freedom and that's what makes the good news

for us [Applause] okay I go I I think that one you can trace how I said a moment ago that that that our ancestors particularly in the brush Harbor they were able to convert this very predatory religion that they were given uh where they were only allowed to hear slaves obey your masters where they were only preach sermons that them that they have to honor those who have charge over you right that they were given a religion that was supposed to make them doile and subjugated to their slave masters but somehow in the brush Harbor

uh not with the plantation field preacher but with the actual field preacher who somehow learned some levels of literacy was able to expose them to the stories of Moses to the stories of the prophets expose them to the truth of what Jesus was trying to to achieve and to to manifest uh in in in in in in the world and and it's in that context that you have people who could be sleep on Sundays right for the the pseudo form of off day that they had but instead they would wake up and go into the

brush Harbor and practice a form of of Faith a form of spirituality that literally affirms their connection to God and affirm their Humanity right that in the brush Harbor uh and I love the way Tony Morrison gives this to us in Beloved uh when when baby sugs uh talks is preaching in the brush Harbor and says love your unn neck because they don't love it Over Yonder love your hands when there's no cotton in them right that there's something about the converted Christianity that the ancestors in the brush arber taught that actually allowed black flesh

to be seen as sacred right and Christianity in in in the black idiom has found ways to honor the sacredness of black flesh in spite of the ways that it has been defined as non-human defined as demonic defined as disposable def defined as criminal and punishable so there's something about the theological Legacy of the not Plantation religion but brush Harbor spirituality that is still alive in black in black churches that allow us to honor who we are as manifestations of the image of God that we can also say that we are image bearers of God

uh because of the way the religion was converted another way we can talk about this is that you don't have black schools you don't have black doctors you don't have black Banks you don't have black funeral homes you don't have black insurance companies without that reconstru construction black church that says all of you all can start your businesses in these sanctuaries or in the lower area of our churches that you cannot talk about the limited but real economic stability of the black community without understanding that the black churches were the womb of black wealth and

the womb of black literacy and the womb of black education it is the fact that the black churches have decided that they would never simply be interested in what is so-called spiritual but with always enter into the political Fray right so a religion that knows how to enter the political Fray with Liberation on its mind and not simply with power and not simply with predation on his mind is the type of Faith tradition that I think helps black people survive and weather this organized conspiracy against an entire people who were ripped from the Western shores

of Africa snatched from the arms of their mothers denied their own languages and their names but it became the black church and this is ephra Frasier who doesn't think he's given the black church a compliment but it really is a compliment that the black church stood in as a form of family when the family when the black family was under a significant assault amen amen amen and and just to follow up on that I think it's important for us to honor that history one of the things I think that sort of Grieves me a bit

is that from a modern standpoint Point often the black church and the traditions of the black church are turned into memes are made jokes about right like that many of the very practices that have sustained us the spiritual practices the the very you know tangible ways in which black churches have cultivated communities it seems as though it seems to be very invogue where actually making fun of the black church even by those who call themselves Christian and sort of making fun of the black church that how many me you know look I'm all about a

good laugh and a good fun but why are we always a laughing stock right particularly why are Christians feeding into that when the world is already looking at Christianity as a joke looking for excuses to dismiss the very real work of what Christ has done we have to be careful to make sure that we are honoring the black church that we are honoring the word of God that we are honoring our ancestors and the Traditions that they raised us on because many of us as you were saying would not even be sitting here if it

wasn't for that black church scholarship that helped get us to college if it wasn't for those Sunday school teachers who poured into our lives and told us what we could be in Christ in a world that seeks to try to destroy that so one thing I would just want to leave us with is think about honoring the black church more than we do tearing it down and then we do making it a mockery hey or exiting it yeah Malcolm X used to ask a question often to black people who taught you how to hate yourself

one of the reasons why Christianity is good news to black people is that when the work of the hush Harbor the invisible institution the black church post Civil War post reconstruction the work that our ancestors did was to reclaim the fact that we can love ourselves as God created us with our big nose with our big lips with our hips with our natural hair with the ways in which God created us is enough right and part of why the black church uh is sometimes a laughing stock is because I am convinced that not all black

people want to be black and we have to say this and not all black Christians want to be black Christians not all black churches want to practice the protest ethic of the definitive black church because the definitive black church is born as James cold would say as a place of protest and respit you get the black church on the backside of the construct of whiteness saying that black people are not enough and even after the Civil War even after ins slave folks have become free you still can't worship here and so the black churches that

are built on the protest ethic of the search for Liberation and the Reclamation of who we are and who God has created us to be create a space of protest but even during slavery you had the house negro who did not want to be identified with those that looked like them but wanted to be identified with Master you had the plantation preacher versus the field preacher as do franois has already raised and so what we have to remember is that even in 2023 there are some black people who are ashamed of black folks shouting they

are ashamed of black people having demonstrative worship they are ashamed of longer than 10 minutes sermons they are ashamed of the ways in which the protest black church which went long because it was the only place we could be our full selves and we had a whole lot to do on Sundays it was our only day but they are ashamed of the length of our services and and the enthusiasm of our praise and and the demonstrative nature of our te tears or running around the sanctuary or the intimate ways that we talk about God the

ways in which we lay hands and believe that God is still Healing The Sick and still performing Miracles the ways in which we actually believe that I may come with nothing in my bank account but I'm going to give my tithe and my offering anyway because I still believe in the concepts of stewardship there are many black people who are ashamed of that and so as a result there are black people in non-black churches who don't want to be affiliated with the black church and make it their business to make the black church of protest

and Liberation a laughing stop and to discredit it last thing I want to say and then I know we have to move there is a a sentiment um that there is uh let me let me say it how it's typically said and then I'll say my thoughts about it um we have all heard the statements there two uh doesn't matter what color you are as long as his blood was red and we've also heard the despair that 11:00 a.m. on Sundays is the most segregated time for Christians right some iteration of those two statements we

have heard what I want to offer is this there's a reason why the Sunday worship experience became segregated it was because black people could not bring their full full self so whenever there is a multicultural church that allows your full self to be present I have no problems with us being there but when we are there and we can't say black lives matter when we are there but we can't to talk about systemic and structural systems that are set up that cause my experience to be different from my neighbor um on my rose experience who

doesn't look like me then we have to question question what kind of church is this is it a descendant from the churches that we were in when we were enslaved or is it a free Church where we can go to Christ The Liberator following Christ teachings and where everyone should be able to be liberated and be free that Christ is always good news to black people amen the courageous conversations conference is so important because where else can we have these types of conversations with these types of thought leaders about these types of topics it is

a unique and a rare opportunity to come and hear voices that have been trained in diverse places coming together to ask these kind of critical questions in humility and love and conviction and en courage if you're on the fence in a broader sense about any questions you have to do with the faith this is the right place this is modeling for us how do we live in a world in which there's a lot of different perspectives and a lot of different points of view even in the church and how do I navigate that and not

have to compromise what I believe but that is exactly why all of us need to be attending the courageous conversations conference because in a world full of crucifixion somebody needs to start having a conversation where else can you come and get both perspectives from predominantly black and brown leaders thinkers Scholars preachers pastors there's nowhere else you can go you need to be here at the courageous conversations [Music] you3 let me say one thing and I'll let you jump to it uh those who are watching those who are in the room a QR code is going

to pop up on the screen and in the next about 6 and a half minutes or so we're going to transition to your questions so you can begin to type your questions in and then we will transition to your questions Dr fris uh I just just one of those those caveats I think is important similar to how we talked about the existence of christianities in America I think it's also important to name uh that what we call the black church is not really a monolith it's it's not really a single thing uh because black churches

actually are inherently diverse themselves and I think we actually disparage the gift of black christianities when we don't honor the diversity of what it means to be there is no one way to be black and therefore there's no one way to be black church right that every black church has different theologies different polies different understandings of how to approach the Bible different political affiliations the black church itself is a diverse tradition and sometimes when we just use the moniker black church we we sort of bleach away the distinctions and the differences that that exist within

the black church tradition I raised that because every black church is not committed to Liberation and Justice Just because it's black Raphael waro talks about this in the book The Divided mind of the black church part of the black church is born out of protestant slavery there's another form of the black church that is definitely born out of a need for uh individual piety uh uh you know other things that are connected to individualism right so if when we talk about the black churches I think it's important as we think what is the role of

the black church in Black communities we honor the fact that there's always only been a minority who have been actually committed to protest and Liberation otherwise Dr King and Rosa Parks and Fanny L HR would have had much more people following them than actually were following them right although now I you know I grew up in the South everybody in the South claims that they followed Dr King and they March in some March and the pictures don't bear that out the data doesn't bear that out why because there is is a form of the black

church too that has become so American that it is actually more committed to patriotism and the and the perpetuation of this country and its capitalism and its militarism and its white power then it actually is the kingdom of God right and so even though we talk about black churches as a corrective to American Christianity there are a lot of black churches full of black people who actually just look like white evangelicalism and capitalis ISM dressed up in black face no that's true that's true Amen to that that is so true um I I do want

to say this I do I do think that there that we have um I think that it so it it so I grew up in the black church tradition right um and it took me to get a a PhD in Systematic Theology to actually look back and see the riches of the theological tradition that I was raised in you know it took for me to actually get to study it on a on a kind of a a kind of a deeper level you know to know exactly what was happening to actually look back and say

wait a minute this this is actually the best theology you know this is actually these are the people that are wrestling with life's deepest contradictions and still come out with reasons for Hope and Faith right um I I mean I mean there are other folks out there that don't have a theology that can bear that Freight right it cannot bear the burden of the kinds of sufferings that we've gone through but we have a theology that is deep enough to sustain us right so it took for me to to to actually do deeper study to

actually realize that and I just think that there are there are people who actually don't recognize the riches of the black church tradition and they look back on it and it's easy for them to kind of look at our current situation and say that our tactics today should have been their tactics then and if they didn't have those tactics then well then they weren't really committed to Liberation they weren't really committed to Freedom they weren't really committed to Justice when that's I think I think that that is you know I I think that's sad and

lamentable right because often times we don't recognize courage when we see it because it doesn't look like the the you know he so so here on the other side of the Emancipation Proclamation you know here on the other side of so much work that was done by the those very people we are able to demonstrate and and we are able to do certain acts of Liberation and we kind of look back and say well if you weren't you know Nat Turner and den Mark Bessie and if you weren't that person then you weren't really committed

to Freedom right but I think we've got to um you know I think we've got to look harder you know this is the thing that makes us dismiss certain scriptures this is the thing that makes us look at certain passages and first Peter and say well hey you know all that stuff about slaves obey your master man you know that's just that's just a oppressive you know and we just throw those parts out of the Bible when we don't actually realize that these are people that are facing the prospect of genocide and they are trying

to get parishioners home alive and they love the bodies of oppressed people so much that they don't want you to be burned in Nero's party they don't want you to be thrown in the arena and torn apart by wild beast and so they're going to tell you baby get home alive and and we know that we know that love because that's the love that gave us the talk when we were growing up and say hey if you are pulled over by a police officer don't just stick your finger in their face and talk back because

baby we can go we look we can take this up when you get home but just get home alive right and that's love that's deep love that that that's not people who are selling out to the system that's not people who um don't don't love Justice and don't love black people that those are people who love black people enough to say uh to say I I I I love I love you soul and body you are not just an issue I've got to get this baby home alive right and and so when I look back

even at the Civil Rights Movement right and I I I did my doctoral research on Dr King Theology of suffering I I I know the the the the wrestling and the tension in the community but I I you know just because people were a little bit hesitant I'm I I'm not always quick to point the finger say well you didn't Marshal Dr Dr King so you you know because I know that these are people who have sons and daughters that say baby I care about your body and and this is risky and and and ultimately

it is worth it but but that's a that's a deep conversation that has to be had and um and I think it's it's I think we just have to be careful with the way in which we deal with those people right because they have something to say uh they they had a they had a form of courage they have a form of resistance they had a form of of of really um uh aligning with the cause of Liberation even if Liberation in their context didn't always look the same you know uh so so I just

I just wanted to lift that up those those were good points let me let me turn this to uh the audience here we we've got some really good questions here and one of the ones you it's a democratic system here that that got some votes uh since whiteness is a cast system and ideology that can tempt anyone including black people what are some ways this happens to some black people and multi black and multi-racial churches and how can we address it I I if I think I understand the question correctly it seems to be a

question about like how do we not become like the people that we're critiquing to a certain extent in terms of manipulating Christianity to our own ends because that's really what we're talking about when we're talking about the slaveholders religion and its sort of manifestations into white Christian nationalism Etc it's really about and this is not something that was created through the slave trade we can look at Jesus's time and how religious folks of his day were also about grabbing power and why Jesus why they tried to kill why they killed Jesus was because they believ

that he was not going to support their political ends so this is this is a tendency that I think that people who claim to be Christians can often fall into this idea that the power of God should be used to get me power and so I think the re one of the things that we can do um as those who believe in God who believe in his Bible who trust God is to not do the same thing to not try to use the power of God to our own selfish ends and there's a lot of

I think in our contemporary moment of a lot of conversations about how the gospel or relationship with God is just for you to be able to blow up to be able to get your own business to be able to fulfill your life's purpose without understanding a larger Kingdom Purpose and so I think that's really where it comes down to that even as as we are critiquing the larger systems and structures that have oppressed African-Americans in the name allegedly of Christ we also need to understand that we have to do do that same kind of introspection

are we now also trying to use our relationship with God or using terms about God or trying to get closer to God so that he can fulfill our own desires and purposes for power versus are we in this to submit to the lordship and kingship of Jesus Christ and his [Applause] kingdom did anyone anyone else want to take a shot at that one we got a lot of questions all right do we still need the traditional black church yes I think it's intended to be open-ended I I I'll take that question um largely because four

years ago I started a black Church in Brooklyn New York and um I started alongside my husband and people continually ask us this question uh because our Mantra at our church is that we are a Jesus movement for black lives we are very clear about the fact that we follow Christ and that we um create a space for black people um yes we do still need the church the black church it's interesting that it's worded as do we still need the traditional black church um I'm going to say that there are some traditions of our

church the black church that we still need um there are some traditions of community of us making sure that if one of us makes it we all make it if one of us has need we all have need uh the kind of collective common purse of making sure that people have their needs met we still need the traditions of the black church where you can go and learn how to be a public speaker as a young person discover that you can sing discover that you can play the piano uh get basically free Child Care people

drop their children off at the school and they they at the church they come back when the lights are going off when when the sexon is cleaning up um we still need safe spaces where uh we have the the the rights of Passage programs and and the school gyms where you can go and and play basketball all of those um elements of communal empowerment the places where in your Sunday school you learn uh with black characters in your Sunday school book and you see things that affirm you you see a black Jesus you see uh

uh aspects of yourself that Empower you um and and you're taught black theology those traditional aspects of the black church I do believe we still need um the aspects that we don't need we don't need the patriarchy we don't need the homophobia we do not need the classism we do not need uh the the pejorative way that the senior pastor is held up and everybody else works and tirelessly and never has space for any questions we don't need a space where you can't bring your Bible and your questions we don't need uh uh some of

the ways in which the traditional black church has been harmful but I would assert as someone who intentionally started a black church a church that started off non- denominationally and later affiliated with a historic black denomination on purpose I do believe we still need spaces where black people can freely apart from the Gaze of white supremacy wrestle with the biblical text hold space and Community for one another be free uh and be our full and authentic selves that is the hope of the black church while no black church is perfect I believe that is the

greatest hope and that church can be used as a tool to push back against any systems and structures that are looking to tear down the black community and out of that church can come black leaders that can be trusted because they're held accountable to a community that says to them this is what we need and if you go on our behalf you speak on on the needs of what we collectively need um and not just something that you've decided is your political ambition and your way to get ahead um but in short I do believe

we still need the church the black church amen what what really stuck out for me in the question was the same word traditional uh there uh because there there's the adage that says tradition is the Living Faith of the dead but traditionalism is the dead faith of the living and there is a lot of dead faith that we who are living carry around that we could possibly discard and throw away uh particularly the patriarchy the homophobia the classism the xenophobia those are a part of the Traditions that have that have often marked black churches that

have led people our age to leave black churches or to leave churches in general because they sort of Mark the duplicity and the hypocrisy that organized religion often seems to to carry so so I do I do raise that as like what traditions do we hold on to uh and and why do we hold on to are they lifegiving Traditions I think that that that helps us to if we answer that question that helps us to think more more deeply I remember when I was in college I went to the uh World Council of churches

and met in Atlanta uh and it's a group of us from morehous uh we are uh standing around talking about uh these luminaries of the black church pray Thea Hall Garden of Taylor we're talking about these luminaries of of black church Traditions preachers primarily uh but we know most luminaries of black church aren't preachers because preachers don't keep churches around it's really black women that keep churches around right uh black women that we often don't pass the mic to that keep churches around right uh but but we were talking about these luminaries of of the

black church preaching tradition like pry Hall like Gardner Taylor like Sandy Ray and white woman comes up to us she Pastors in she pastored in St Louis and she asked us will the black church ever cease to exist and one of my classmates a very snarky guy uh he looked at this woman and said will the white church ever cease to exist now the reason why I interject that thinking about this question is that when are we going to actually have critiques and question the validity and the necessity of white churches because the only reason

why we have black churches are because white people want to put us in the balcony they didn't want to serve us communion they didn't want to baptize Us in the same baptism room FS as the as their children right black churches exist as a response to White Christian terrorism black churches exist not because black people just wanted to worship together because we liked our own music and we like the way we worship no we could not worship in peace in white spaces therefore we understood we needed a relationship with God a relationship with Jesus and

so we built places where we could do it on our own right and so I'm not saying this is where that question came from but so often when we hear that question it comes from people who don't want to raise the Spectre of why black churches exist in the first place and as long as white supremacy is still denying Black Folk opportunities Black Folk access and un unfettered access to God we need those Faith spaces those sacred spaces where we can do that kind of work right until there is no greater force Against Racism in

this country than black churches have been right and as as as long as there still religious bigotry and predation as long as there's still social discrimination and political disenfranchisement we will need some versions of the black church in order for black people to get home safe that's right that's exactly right and the black church the black church is a theological right response to white supremacist um white supremacist heresy right because right Supremacy is not just it is terroristic right but it's also a heresy and we have to understand that you know that that the because

often times we look at the black church as if you know we wonder how theological it is you know oh it's emotional it's ritualistic but it's theological it's deeply theological right um the reason we the reason we walked away from the white church was because the white church did not preach the best Doctrine they preached whiteness as a currency of Salvation all right right the reason the reason why Richard Allen and Absalon Jones had to get up and walk out of St George's was because whiteness was the currency of coming to the Lord's table and

they said if whiteness is going to be a currency of salvation where you are worshiping the wrong Jesus you don't know how to be saved so we've got to have our own things so that we can be saved so that we can actually have grace through faith and not grace through whiteness right so um you know so so I think I think that's important the black church will always be necessary as long as there is this white supremacist heresy because the black church is the uh has been the repository of that faith that actually teaches

the true Christ amen amen well here's another question how do we include African and Caribbean people in the conversation of Blackness well for me we're always including African and Caribbean folks in the conversation maybe that's because I Pastor in Brooklyn uh most of my church most of our church is uh a Caribbean American black American um I I think at the heart of the question though um I do think that Blackness needs to be expansive enough to be diasporic yes and so I think that's the heart of the question and I think that we all

need to remember that we are a diaspora um and as a diaspora um there is diversity within Blackness um and we all have different uh perhaps experiences I'm someone my father's Trinidad and my mother was born in Alabama grew up in New York um but but I think I just want to push the question a little bit I I think that we I think that we should include we should always imagine that Blackness is diasporic and I think perhaps the question is how do we create space in our congregations where varying Expressions across the diaspora

of how we choose to um um engage God are equally seen um so that folks are not only um included but feel they belong in the same way that we push for uh diversity Equity inclusion and belonging in in nonblack spaces I I mean I Pastor in New Jersey right so there there's a sense that you know my my church we have several our church has several uh Haitian families families from the continent who are now residents are citizens of America and America doesn't care if they were born here or whether or not they were

born in some other land what America sees is that black skin right when when when they get pulled over by the police the first thing the police see is black skinn right uh they they are denied home ownership the same way I'm denied home ownership right they are put in segregated schools the same way our children are put in segregated schools and so Blackness has to be diasporic but we also name the fact that once we come to this country we literally came on different boates but we all live in the the same boat once

we get here that's right it's an important thing to name the second piece then we talk about our our our African and and uh at dport brothers and sisters is is to also be clear that there were unique forms of Christian expression that were created in other parts of the world right that you have a unique form of Christian interpretation and Christian expression that happens in Cuba that happens that happened in uh uh uh uh uh uh that happened in Jamaica that happened in other parts of that happened in Nigeria and to name that type

of diversity as a part of this larger black church tradition I think is important to name the because we're not talking about the African-American church we're talking about the black church right and wherever people with black skin live that ought to be seen as a manifestation of black church Traditions now the other part of this that may not be as as popular is to when we talk about our brothers and sisters who are not from this who were not born on this continent uh we have to also name the fact that God is not bound

God was at work in the world well before Judaism and Christianity were formalized as religions right and how do we also create space for our ancestors and our diasporic brothers and sisters who have tapped into our God in ways that we don't always name as our ways right what does it mean to name the fact that God has been at work with black people and other peoples since the beginning of black peoples in the world and to make space when we talk about our diasporic brothers and sisters yes I'm a I am a a Christian

I'm committed to the teachings and the ways of Jesus no question about it but I also know God's not a Christian and I also know Jesus wasn't one either right and so what do I do with the fact that there are God's children whose names I don't know that's also how I think we have to make space for our Caribbean and our African brothers and sisters all right let me uh shift to another question is it okay for black for a black person to go to a predominantly white church especially if a black church is

not available in your community as some blacks leave live in white communities I would say uh that is a that's a boy that's a good question and a hard question a lot of people asking yeah a lot of people asking it yeah you know I I do think that um I I do think we want to find ways in which people are able to be discipled and sit under the Gospel of Jesus Christ um and I do think that um you know I think I think that you want to find ways to tap into and

engage in the community in so far as your community is not out to um harm you right and um and and be and be toxic to you right so um you know so in so far as you can engage in a space in which the people have an emancipatory mindset then uh I would say you can right but if you find yourself in a situation in which your humanity is denigrated in which you're uh in which you are are given an inferiority complex um in which you in which your children are malformed and uh and

and steer toward hating themselves then you got to stay away from those spaces you got to stay away from those spaces um and and and there's enough opportunity to to engage in community um to to you know to to and I you know I I'm a person that very much believes in the local church very much believes that in so far as you can um engage in person we should try to do everything we can to you know not at the expense of our health and not the at the expense of our emotional health as

well and our spiritual health but um pleas as so far as you can you know but if you can't if you're in a situation where all these white churches are out here you know um out here killing me slowly uh killing me spiritually killing me emotionally and killing my children then I'm saying stay away from those spaces and and get online and find yourself an online community in terms of an ability to engage in a space where you can have emancipation where you can hear the true gospel so that you aren't out here um doing

harm or being harmed you know so yeah I I think I would just add um back to the point earlier that you know whiteness is sort of a a state of mind it's a state of being it's not necessarily connected to white people to make sure that you are in a space where the gospel is being preached where you are being formed in the image and likeness of Christ a place that is truly doing that would be able to affirm you in your Blackness or in any other kind of way it it's important that you

find spaces that reflect the true gospel of Christ and what we're saying is in black churches where all of parts of black people are dignified their identity who they are but also that the foundation of it is in Christ and growing in your identity and who you are in Christ that that's what you look for right so if you cannot find it specifically in a space that is entirely black you need to find a space that will as um Dr Edmonson just said a place that will be affirming to you as a person because to

me uh a true safe space a true church is one in which that will always happen whether or not it is in a black space or not that there are I do believe there are white Christians right there are people who have been formative in my life who have been black Christians um but also those who have not those I learned from so again we have to be able to discern what is true about God what is really meant by a church and absolutely being able to affer a place that Den you in your Blackness

would not be a space that would uphold that I I think I think what you want to well one you can go to whatever Church you want to technically yeah it's free country um so if it's okay or not I don't know if any of us can really give you that answer right but you should probably stay away from a place that has more Christian whiteness than it has Christian witness right uh if whiteness has has been raised as an idol in that space and everyone in there is seemingly an acolyte to whiteness that's probably

not a church that's committed to Jesus right uh so I would be more interested in in raising like does this space affirm the the truth of Jesus or is this space really a proxy for the project of America right and and whatever that means I think is an important question an important question to ask when you when you think about whether or not that white church is for you another piece is I integration religious integration in in this country has been one directional Black Folk go to White churches but white people don't really come to

black churches right and we have to ask ourselves where does that come from right now of course there are I have a few white sisters who come to my church I don't have any white men that come to my church and I think some of that's connected to power and not really connected to the gospel right but the raises question like when are we going to start asking the question of when are white people going to actually start coming into these spaces where Jesus is being preached and taught in ways that are liberative and in

ways that are safe right uh I would there are a lot of white people who live next to black churches in the suburbs and they drive all around them to go somewhere else because when we talk about a lot many times when we talk about Multicultural churches we're talking about how many black people can come to a church with a white leader versus how many white people can go to a church with a black leader that's a big distinction that we have to make and I would also say the last thing is there are a

lot of black churches I would tell you not to go to as well because of the ways that they MIM whiteness and Christian whiteness over Christian witness and so stay away from those black churches too did you did you okay all right here's another question um also a lot of people ask this what are some ways we can live out the fullness of our Liberation as black Christians to demonstrate to Black non-christians that Christianity is good for us I think we need to spend a good amount of time studying the gospels the gospels are the

place where we get the clear picture of what Jesus does on the earth and if you really study the gospels you will be able to tell the difference between Jesus followers and folks who simply uh grew up in a church and put a label on themselves as Christian but are not moving the way Jesus would move and when you really just read just just read all four gospels Matthew Mark Luke and John read it a few times and you really see how Jesus enters the spaces that Jesus enters if you follow that Jesus you are

going to end up becoming the kind of person that is often interrogating and pushing back the way that folks are moving in the world and black people who noticed you being willing to interrogate and being Welling willing to push back are going to be Cur serous about your why and if that why is rooted in the fact that you are a Jesus follower and this is how you believe the 2023 iteration of following Jesus looks like they're going to be intrigued by that uh I still believe that if we just follow Jesus people will ask

us questions about Jesus and they will be led towards their own Liberation don't follow me follow Jesus and you can watch me as an example of someone who's doing her best to follow Jesus but if you just keep reading the gospels you will see how radical and disruptive and liberative Christ was from the time he comes as a baby until he ascends back into heaven and people who spend more time with the gospels uh and more time with us as we try to follow Jesus of the gospels I believe will have more curiosity about uh

Christ in general and the church I think one way in which we can um live into the freedom of the Gospel is um actually the freedom the freedom of repentance and confession I think that I think that's really one thing that distinguishes us from from the world I I think I think an ability to actually say I'm I'm sorry I was wrong I messed up I I have been a part of that system that has done XYZ to You and I by God's grace am seeking ways to divest and to try to make repair right

I think that's something that is unique a a a particular calling of of Christian of Christians one thing that we can uh all say that uh as Christians is that we have all had to repent right we've all had to repent so we got practice we got a call from Jesus to be to to know how if anybody if anybody can say I'm sorry it ought to be us right and I think that that that's that kind of humility I think is really disarming for people you know the ability to name the suffering and to

be able to say hey you know what I see pain before me I know this hurts you um um I I don't I don't I'm not claim to understand all of it but I will weep with you because the scripture calls us to weep with those who weep right not just say I know about your suffering but actually to take it upon myself to the point of actually weeping so when we weep with people with an ability to say um in the name of Jesus I I can I can cry with you and say I'm

sorry and and confess as a man I can say to my sisters here's the ways I am sorry here's the ways in which I have participated in patriarchy here's the ways in which I have participated in misogyny and by God's grace I am standing against it and I I'm coming I'm coming beneath you to learn from you as my sister in Christ that those are the kinds of things that ought to distinguish Christian Brothers you know and um and and they haven't they haven't often times you know I mean because I mean even in even

in knowing even in even in like saying that we've got some knowledge around the gospel sometimes we find ways not to repent we find ways to say what's wrong with everybody else and how everybody else is you know has missed it how everybody else is like you know uh you know they don't really understand the gospel they ain't really moving like Jesus they like wait a minute but but it's me oh Lord you know I stand in in the need of prayer but the the Jesus people lot of people that just go to the temple

and say Lord have mercy on me a sinner though that's the person that's Justified before God right that's the person and that's the person that moves in the Justice of God because they move with humility yeah I think no absolutely am amen and and just to to follow with that I think one of the ways that um as members of black church as a black Christian that I get to exemplify the glory of God in a unique way it it reminds me of the scripture in Romans where um Romans 3 where Paul is wrestling and

talking about you know so what advantag does did you have because of circumcision and all that that they were entrusted first with the word of God um and then it asked the question if some were Unfaithful will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness and then the scripture response is absolutely not let God be true and even and every you know else a liar as it is written and so I think that as as Christians we get to speak as black Christians we get to speak to those who are watching and looking at hypocrisy who are looking

at suffering who are looking at pain and be able to exemplify that while people have been unfaithful while has been hypocrisy and oppression done in the Name of Christ that that does not diminish who God is and my cry and my hope is that if you're someone in here who is wrestling with the faith and you're stumbling over these questions about well how could I love a God where people who have called on his name have done such terrible things do not let the oppression do not let white supremacy and what it's done to Christianity

get in the way of you having a real and genuine relationship with God do not let that that would be an extra Victory do not let that prevent you from getting to the god of the universe who can save you who can deliver you who is there do not let these things get in the way that do we reckon with them absolutely I mean I'm a historian I I know what white folks have done right but to be able to look at that history and to know that even though these people have been unfaithful who

have abused the name of God that God is greater still and that his faithfulness remains I think provides a really important kind of apologetic to a world that sees so much suffering and hypocrisy and doesn't know what to do with it amen amen have mercy well I want to give our panelist a Round of Applause by the way wonderful wonderful insites and I pray you were encouraged uh by their answers I want to thank everyone who submitted questions we're sorry we were not able to get to every one of them but there were some that

many of you got behind and so thank you panelists for answering questions for our folks all right this ends our current [Applause] session the courageous conversations conference is so important because where else can we have these types of conversations with these types of thought leaders about these types of topics it is a unique and rare opportunity to come and hear voices that have been trained in diverse places coming together to ask these kind of critical questions in humility and love and conviction and en courage if you're on the fence in a broader sense about any

questions you have to do with the faith this is the right place this is modeling for us how do we live in a world in which there's a lot of different perspectives and a lot of different points of view even in the church and how do I navigate that and not have to compromise what I believe but that is exactly why all of us need to be attending the courageous conversations conference because in a world full of cruci fixtion somebody needs to start having a conversation where else can you come and get both perspectives from

predominantly black and brown leaders thinkers Scholars preachers pastors there's nowhere else you can go you need to be here at the courageous conversations you3 [Music]