Diálogo entre Paulo Freire e Seymour Papert - 1995

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crap ranges RG in the air was he English could even look at some photos equals no a dancing party that's does it day as it as property so we took a ferry I was oblivious fiends DeLuca so my support free concorda comes me they do Cassandra pepperidge Eastern country story vamos confident somebody's gonna ask me questions like what did you learn from our Prairie so I was wondering then the answer is well everything a lot but it made me think of what I don't tell her fairy I used to have cut out of my war

and cartoon and joke from punch magazine which showed a little girl who came to the teacher after class and said to the teacher what did I learn today and the teacher said it was a funny question but who asked me that listen when I get home daddy will ask me what did you learn today and I never know what to say and I think maybe the serious thing that other kind of fairy is that that's not just a joke then it sort of says what's so wrong with the whole school idea of this girl is

the teachers doing something just go the girl is not conscious doesn't have a consciousness of what it's all about and that what we're really trying to do in education of small children is to even sideways give them more consciousness the process more control put themselves in it but it's the opposite of the working test having to ask the teacher what did I learn today there are should be now Gordon concept goes to do move how many my pro fool do the significance on and the difference and to move yoni storage a story in fact is

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contagious it's also the first get started said much respected though my pawns in Pelham Oliver no Tony guida furiosa Dodge Police will definitely come Metapod objects the notorious dog for no apologies once again I ask you to forgive I took advantage of you a question in order to make a speech likely by illness the Brazilians from by NOP loud microphone so I'll take advantage your speech that you got a speech let's see I'd like to let's be very provocative and I'm gonna say something oversimplified Paulo said you can't understand how anybody could say there's learning

with our teaching now of course fundamentally that's absolutely true and basically to commit verdad however in the world as it is there's a certain balance between learning and teaching where the teaching is so over balanced we see muthoni miles on this balance tab compared with the importance of learning and part of the point professor depends on that it's right to come true to say that our task is to evaluate learning at the expense of teaching yeah yes so I'd like to say just say something about how I see the role of Technology in one aspect

of how these construction of learning and teaching has taken place and of course I'm oversimplifying but within this country I'm gonna recognize three stages of the now these are not stages like Piaget my talk about the nature of the brain of the man their stages in the relationship between the individual and knowledge so stage one happens when the baby's born star Jupiter's for the Korean us and for from that time they starts the process of learning by exploration inside Nigeria everything is put in the mouth whatever it was not only related to things it's people

as well that they but the these are learning going on that's driven by the individual that baby is determining parents might say during this foot but they might think they are determining what the baby is learnt but it's only a minor your faith primarily the Bailey is the infant is learning in a self-directed way now they comes a time when the infant is seeing a wider world than can be touched and failing so the questions of the child's mind aren't only about this and this listed eyes and see but something I heard about so think

about that I imagine it you and I think yeah the child enters into a precarious and dangerous situation because not necessarily but I think in point of fact in our societies is now a shift from experiential learning by exploring to another kind of learning which is learning by being told because you have to find adults or tell you things oh and this state reaches its climax in school and I think it's an exaggeration that there's a lot of truth if one said that when you go to school the trauma is you must stop learning and

you must now accept being taught now know then that stage so that stage two it's school it's learning by being taught its deposits and now I think many children are just strangle some of course survive it and all of us survived it and that's one reason why it's often dangerous discussing these questions intellectual people because we in spite of the school we we what happened to us was that in the course of this side of the stage - we learned certain skills to learn to read for example don't use libraries we learned now to be

able to explore directly a much wider world now and I think that there's an important sense in which stage three is going back to stage one before those who have survived the stage two creative people in a laboratory and a philosophy for the in a philosophy seminar an artist a businessman a journalist all the people in the world who are able to despite the all the restrictions in the world we live in to find a way of living creatively they are very much like the the baby again there we explore it's driven from inside it's

experiential it's not so verbal it's not about being told so now I want to tell a story about my dress on you that shows I think what helped new technologies might change that pattern this when this grandson was three years old I was sitting there and I saw him go and take from a shelf videotape put it in a VCR and press the buttons they he says if you've got a rewind let me press the button then he rewound it and then he played the videotape now what is interesting is that this child for the

next thirty minutes spent the next 30 minutes immersed in a piece of the world that was beyond his reach having this particular tape was about Road making machines in all those big machines and cetera they're very fascinating for children and he's loves this tape and he's gotten to know much more about these machines and I ever will and I noticed the difference when we drive in the car and he sees one of the machines he asked more intelligent question mr. Mike because he's thought about it for me now you see we've gotta see what's remarkable

about this my first witness incident happened I saw him the first thing that amazed me was this little child working this machine I was amazed me there it's amazing it has this child working this VCR machine and many adults don't know how to do that but we really shouldn't be amazed at that because it's not more complex than putting his toys away or getting his clothes out of the drawer it's not more working these machines is not more complex in any way than the things that three-year-old children all do that's how it amazing so what's

really amazing it is the comparison between what he could do it 3 and what I could do it 3 so if I was interested in road making machines that was quite a few years later than 3 where I would know enough to be able to learn something about it except by asking somebody and being told so here I see the the big break that what we seeing is that stage 2 is becoming unraveled as a necessary stage and that this child is beginning to short-circuit stage 2 and with what I saw there with this grandson

who's got a few videotapes it's only scratching the surface just beginning who's already just a few years later this have two years ago he could be having a cd-rom and having an interactive or he could use the internet and have that whole range not just a few video tapes or CDs that he has in his house but the whole the whole range of human knowledge that in principle is accessible to him so then so that's the end of my speech fairy that I think that the key point about this technology and education is that it's

short circuits the stage to it enables us to not put children through that traumatic and and dangerous precarious process out of the schooling and they now of course I said this in a non-political way and I don't mean at all to imply that is only that better I don't think that school and the banking model of knowledge and so on is just politically neutral it's being used by social structures as a basis for all sorts of conservatism and oppressors kinds for all sorts of conservatism and oppressors kinds of of policies however I think I see

in these little situations the possibility that 3 4 5 a very small children are better and I've got a new instrument to refuse the the oppression is to refuse to be placed in this position and to maintain their curiosity and their own sense of their own intellectual power that they had never born nothing's more ridiculous than the idea that this technology can be used to improve school it's going to displace schools in the way we have understood school of course they will always be we have places where children will come together with other people and

we'll learn but I think that the very nature it's a fundamental nature of school that we see in this process is coming toward him and I think that in 20 years who can read out of be prophets taught but in this area things that usually happen much faster so they may that the goal of educators has to be to think about new ways of relating to children and relating to in the crimer between the adult and the child and knowledge I think we just need their are thoroughly different relationships and that's not going to come

easily or automatically and that's the test so see the other thing I learned from Paulo Freire is to make a long speech gala committee the message to our speeches properly prescribed is a theodoric together custody primero de muruga past process us past delish dodging the magical be commercial demasiado leash be closed not emotion he was to deliver some a kill thinking cut captain give him any more in your discord for example demons some historic historical dimension story technology recent technology daughter sheriff generation and technology culture we melatonin to to the class must first for example

Achilles am nervous motion vintage insist invite established Ernest Acosta it has a grants maximized when there is no specialized job to isla he never did he say Sanders obtaining computer dog my sis way amenorrhea the social address you get easy to do finish the street a Trish mean unity Brazil yes our two more handy for me da da technology few days de mayoría de creus Brazil eras Oh Dottie event III tonneaus es menos de menos progesterone Melinda Technology Delhi Coachella so astonish no strange moment kaley cuoco nice PDS the products on the quest Metro arson

to no solution a critical phase of Segundo momento señor momento momento : for example a omec little cookie you can customize Monsieur dish the Isetta apropos kiki no Emma propose a profit no he does not propose he says that nice Adela in homage corresponding bad technology do no money no safe tell up - owatta technology as the arrow you continue you continue you tell you sentido de Porres call out to reduce open a porous call-out will show people away no a shot a holla support Allah Mozilla Yoda Vaccaro chemo tiempos de moda KCl cement or

a motor mint Milano's neck a rock el primer momento Nikesh primero momentos de año más de mujeres cumin muscle men banana no importa burns Bastille or discoteca por cada banana Nahuatl Basavanna use o menos Belarus experimenta social mentee de fondo de Sofia terminal descubrió que esta fazendo aqui no suburban Tierra in the case no obvious sakera in the fermented naturally washing what we lived opposite terrorism because they tell us a list of all offenders by experiment no leo Reverend Oh Messersmith okay Ali Pasha sociable a nice day boys Toyama similar adjustable hip mo da new

level of castamere escuela standardized empanadas in de no Mia you dance of 84 squalling gosh Oh Toto come essence aceveda's exhibition two tempos aprendemos intestine Cena will learn before teaching for is automatic or status on decay a premium Selena a noisy signal Sina the for afresh Felicia friend experience what we start premiere stars in the premiere problematic physical ecology the ecology was a kiva produce English does he sound towards premiere because no need that casamento dollars was my XIV they all logical solution Polly circuiting mode I would comment on food a getting some double price

don't take folic acid or more you make us class the personal studio invest but no more doubts bullish - there are all these pitches of the new liberal a perspective ideology working in order to preserve the second stage in it nevertheless new order in order for us to change in the second stage we have to change the literal speech you know will they be school am I saying who's gonna go away well depends what we mean by school but I think that what we need to note and very clearly and this is something else I

learned from you actually we must be conscious and critical yes of what it's about fundamentally and now what's wrong with school is not details is that what's wrong with truly absolutely fundamental at the time your food that means that to say you're gonna correct that is not very far from saying you don't have and I just have to make a list of them girls I think there's some that you haven't even I mean I know you concentrate on the political which is there and bad I agree but let's take something how ridiculous it is why

do we know first what the idea that should be school as a place where you say now you are learning not living now we segregate people by age now we have got some pretty pretty bad all the stuff okay well what is my main question is is it an ontological problem or a political problem it's a political ideological I want to say that the school is not bad in itself yes it is if school means a place where children are segregated from society and segregated amongst themselves from our age and put through a curriculum now

go and ask any school administration what did I do it but it's not necessarily her truly well I mean we could have something else but you can cause school if you like yes but we have to create do you know what is my question for example I also don't have a horse a to decompensate goodness you came for me young real estate impressive to me not that we do he's ready to spread some fairy aura sauce brand new process it is because the a scope is to follow the pencil meta metaphysical it non-significant I swallow

no way see mesh my hada Alicia this is the difference between the word subiendo and say stock well let me take it another way man here's another side of the politics and the Korra was another statement that we who went through the school and survived it should change it I don't think that we are the force that will change the school I think that in the path that there been many people who proposed more or less radical changes of school we like Dewey said many things and of course is in many ways he's sure he

was made himself impotent for neglecting the power of the political itself but basically he had a philosophy and he said agree with my philosophy and you will change school and I think he later Sergey schooling says this is a good idea and I think I'm not saying that as usually pointed out I'm not saying it's a good idea to to change school I'm saying that it is inconceivable that school as we've known it will continue inconceivable and the reason why it's inconceivable is that little glimmer was my grandson who is used to following knowledge when

he wants to and can get it when he needs it and can get in touch with other people and teachers not because they didn't wanted by the state because they're even contact them in some network somewhere and listen to wash conferences no Cannella no our demon is only human a perspective a billion including another so didn't protect the squad this is possible is this present my difference the only difference between me and the village for example because if I Alicia I remember the times I wasn't when Ibaka with him until Emily and toady Marty -

hi Daddy Jonathan Kozol Jonathan Kozol in a 180 the intellect was American a lot in american visit him in a first moment if I did she was against these goals in a second because they reconsidered the school's bearing themselves as a very institution which should it should be that shot him seems to give momentum stomach won't lie accustomed in the second mama he was against education shy focus on his seminary capital commitment is totally synthetic quatrain imagine every fellow boosh be lost in this year focus on the tries you start in trash for using arrows

so much Mickey boy Sammy geodesy prelate variance in our storage tank of it was a stop order the custom your stock want a fair Luca so I look really awesome see Donna story because they we are breathing down with a cold what's a crustacean don't in general it may be a knife know lyrically life in fear and I you know maybe III got becoming angry because of that if you say to me god it's it's derivative sister Google much mice observant on crustacean Jim my job refill refill diploma engine with daddy this current sausage India

Bermuda Arkansas's brass version a distance a fatalistic a no absolute I think I think maybe this is not a real issue in the creek yes what is changing school and some good models that I see some places where in some there are few school districts in more who do you see where they will allow a seed of change by for exactly some school districts in New York City they will allow a group of teachers who have a proposal to start a small school with a different philosophy of Education and provided that they've got an argument

and that parents are prepared let their children come they can set up so it's not school I mean it's even the same buildings and ultimately it's controlled about the same the same people pay they the janitor but but what is happening in some of these is very different from the defining structure yeah but I'd call school of the capital S which is about the curriculum in classes and all that we agree is a bad thing so I think it's possible that they would be a shift that was in school within schools alternatives can grow up

I think also will see alternatives growing up outside of the school I think we see in the United States recently a tremendous increase in the homeschooling movement occurs people just keeping their children out some so I think mean this change is coming about in all sorts of places and and we work for it and I think we're where I seem to be taking a sort of harder position that school Babb is that I mean I think that is a kind of we've called it narrow liberalism of discourse inside education that talks about curriculum reform change

of school management and has a general model of it ignores historical features - such as the is this bureaucracy this bureaucracy has its own interest this bureaucracy is not doing what it's doing it's not open to argument about what's the best interests of the children I mean I'm not saying they're all bad people but they've also got their own it's their own culture that they they live in Amanda I don't think we can appeal to their more trying persuade them or argue with them yeah but I'd like to add one more example to think this

out I have a chapter in my last book which as for translation and Portuguese on but I think is an example I think there's an example of taking a historical approach on a minor scale and it's not the big history of society so if you go into schools nowadays you see a lot of computers and almost everybody agrees computers are not being very well used now the liberal discourse says they doubt the schools don't know how to use the computers let's do research and find out the best way to use the computers and then they'll

be used well and they will have all sorts of good results now I think it's exactly the other way around the school bureaucracy is know very well how to use them yes in order to reinforce their own concept of school and I find very interesting that so going in the 1970s the first times I saw any micro computers and schools it is always a visionary teacher and a rebellious teacher who didn't like what he saw when she was supposed to be doing and so the computer is the way of doing something different and often this

is a bit romantic and I didn't really know exactly how this was but they felt was thing yeah and they want and also it was it was an instrument of radical change they thought it was about and then round about the middle of the ideas you start this thing god it got into the hands of the school administrations and the ministries and they were literally all the commissioners of Education State Education Department's and now what they did with them no longer are their computers in the hands of visionary teachers in the classrooms they now pour

together and is now a computer classroom there was a computer curriculum and there's a special computer teacher in other words it's been thoroughly assimilated to the idea of the way you see each kid zip Scala can wish you to choose from each controller is there been a destroyed because the cool arises they assume a concert to flux with your contesting enters with control a to some age on Jackie Linderman panels and Korean sir ji ki asha one perspective it movements on jacked on Jeremy the mood answer professor Babbage followed proper experiences tardiness moodiness is no

Cydia created certain Munira he Achilles Chioma Pharma some control a hospice re mo controla Alma I'm apparently difficu dodgy kg super are no cows descri answers cause you super icy controller controller Scioscia how can you experiment you need a control can take over and control the situation well every revolution works of that the fact is you know that it's it's a it's a political act and people have to act you know but we do see examples I know there are examples in the world of where teachers in a school have demanded and won the right

to do things differently so they've escaped from there from that controlled and I think that this is the political access that we one of the political acts you will work with and they the parents and especially the children are going to be more and more allies in helping teachers bring down the the control of the bureaucracy in the school so I don't say it's easy and you might say well then it's not school anymore if they do bring it down but that's our saving semantic difference we shouldn't but that's what I think we've got a

challenge it's only through people challenging their control but they can be really critical look at the before for sunset date that one Carstairs reproductive each dish challenging that control that they can be relocated give before for sunset 81 constants reproductive each - Beyonce levantamiento more honest with the English Premiere sports a so breeze into so Trish comparative if same gray if they were preserve what one would the high productivity at the comparable Sunday DiMaggio dominance in what largely in the petition so much dialectical my men with mechanization a is that a metal love that kills

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scholar canoe to Clara's so much interest sentiments ethical nice very answer to primary study for sin omega alkyls commercial stuffers and nash colleges a single speck out there solution no premeditation Osheaga a fast a a sustained magical metal this chaos agora chaos Agora a continued our due process dedushka do Nova semente case a modest RFS 8 - - for a proportional crazy meant to the quest email to resist age he had produced some Christmas while in the non-resistant this is the two main tasks of the school's to produce not to get knowledge to get the

knowledge of the already or already know not knowledge and to produce the knowledge not yet existent primary station kawashima difficult was technological era in this material metal present a present which met mash no necessary me that has only st. Christopher's MD Kelly three years didn't are observant my Oh Dukie Dukie Billy yah Hazara speculative now say they've died era the computer song she won't even last us tonight story the computer so in a tsunami too radical to the South one thing is to be contemporain you of certain technological advance the other thing is to arrive

before the advance of technology for example you Vicky every contemporanea hey how it had come the parable was fantastic a detective has to start making following through their key yes before his computer wins with a maravilla measure you know so for estate no supporting more a new issue better he super Sofia atmosphere historico - alien computer zone partially telephone is a sinner give ma loop de la la because they are my story do Sparky if in gravida spots my my question no no problema Oh traveler a promise Oh necesaria the queen cement reducible to Sicily

Park we cement Oh mais methodically he go he go Rosario doesn't say how organza so co-head Duma or human teeth at present - ooh Segundo estado sticklers with the auricles transform you see if a konami law is submitted to a mall daddy that this tough sound of singing - what well Saintes dais characteristic dog same fish daily and say for Secretary Panetta meant they had so-called foreign - bald man agent do you see the one of the problems that I don't say that I have the answer but the I challenge it by him me I

think of this of that that is because look it is not just looking at DD in the operating DD computer that I get the red zone data for the computer well yes it's not simply by operating by your for example this morning we were at the Millennium three projects seeing some kids who were making objects on a computer screen geometric object and these are small eight nonzero of children and so I think that these children better than anybody in a primary school yeah knew their affairs on death or not in the computer but for geometric

knowledge because they were using geometric knowledge to to make things on the screen yeah they are learning that inside of a school no I don't think that well is that if you would do a cold out of school to me now is there now is be enough yeah you see I don't know how much Tyler I think that simply by having access to this computer and a very small amount of teaching of how to you do some they can start building and constructing things and and they begin to see the exactly the film therefore the

reason for having geometry now once they've got that I'm sure that somebody who is well articulated who RTS can serve a great function in tidying it up for them so I imagine kids have become interested in math might spend a few hours in a in a little seminar course or where a mathema somebody who's ready has a mathematical perspective will connect together the ideas that they have but every move develop picked up from one another we will need an expert but I think that the time needed for doing that is maybe 10% of the time

that we we spend in so so it's like I see it like kids going to piano lessons or you know that when they want to and they need to and I imagine people of totally different ages who had some stage of wanting to to know these things come together in a place where they random eclectic exactly in fact you know it's exactly when you say well the important thing is how did I see the haze on there that's exactly what school does not give yes and which they discover by themselves mentally in the sword of

of nesstra but this is what I want right now you are not saying that the school does not does not need to continue it you are proposing something different oh yes this is for me fantastic because what really this school would help to be done is to challenge the x-term illogical curiosity of dissidents in you are coordinated to discover Dylan song death for effects and funding the objects of knowledge and not doing what she it is to announce it see if we can help this school because the students when the students come to the school

they already know lots of things which the school never taught them and now it is easier for a good teacher to say look all these things you already know now heavy a certain scientific explanation which I will speak about now I'm fasting I'm not I spend a lot of time a girl that wants to do this yeah yeah maybe that's a good for these yeah maybe that's a maybe that's a good place to end this discussion was I think I'm gonna get a little I haven't been well the last day but I would like to

propose that this is a great discussion and we should said I'd go in the near future of having a day or two of this kinda thing maybe with these people participating more I mean I think a lot I think the dialog could be used for a lot of people absolute good okay thank you