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[Música] Olá boa noite sejam muito bem-vindos ao Roda Viva estamos no ar para todo o Brasil pela TV Cultura e emissoras afiliadas conectados ao mundo todo pelas principais plataformas digitais e pelo app Play poucos temas mobilizam tanto pais e educadores como o vício em telas que Drena a atenção e em casos mais graves a saúde mental da chamada geração z a avidez Por orientação a respeito de como agir com algo tão disseminado quanto o acesso cada vez mais precoce de crianças e adolescentes a celulares com câmeras frontais e acesso à redes sociais fez com que

um livro que enfrente esse assunto se tornasse um bestseller Global em a geração ansiosa lançado no Brasil em julho pela companhia das Letras o nosso entrevistado de hoje propõe ações que muitos consideraram bastante drásticas para restringir e postergar o acesso a Essas tecnologias e com isso tentar reverter dados alarmantes da incidência de ansiedade depressão automutilação e até suicídio entre crianças e adolescentes para discutir as maneiras práticas de reverter o que ele chama de a grande reconfiguração da infância com a abolição do hábito de brincar e o uso massivo de telas nós recebemos remotamente hoje a

partir dos Estados Unidos o psicólogo social e professor da universidade de Nova York Jonathan H Jonathan David H nasceu em 19 de outubro de 1963 em Nova é formado em filosofia pela Universidade de eel com doutorado em psicologia pela Universidade da Pensilvânia e pós-doutorado na universidade de Chicago desenvolveu a teoria das Fundações Morais que pretende explicar o comportamento moral por meio da perspectiva evolutiva foi professor nas universidades de Virgínia princeton e atualmente está na universidade de Nova York participou do Doc drama o dilema das redes produzido em 2020 pela Netflix e lançou Neste ano o

best seller a geração ansiosa editado no Brasil pela companhia das letras para entrevistar o Jonathan H nós convidamos Michel alcoforado antropólogo e pesquisador Maria Clara Cabral diretora de redação da revista Qualé Leon Ferrari repórter de saúde do Jornal Estado de São Paulo Isabela Palhares repórter da Folha de São Paulo e Januária Cristina Alves colunista do nexo jornal contamos ainda com os desenhos em cima do laço do nosso Luciano Veronesi e a tradução simultânea será feita pela Leslie benzaken Boa noite Jonathan muito obrigada por ter aceitado o nosso convite para estar aqui com a gente o

seu livro já é um bestseller no Brasil já tinha fila de espera por ele antes mesmo dele ser lançado e eu queria começar pelo começo como foi que você detectou que entre crianças e jovens nascidos depois de 1995 se E aí configurou uma uma espécie de epidemia de ansiedade de problemas de saúde mental e até de casos mais graves como suicídio sobretudo por um advento que surgiu nos anos 2010 [Música] Brazil in that I did myt research in 1989 ient two months inz working with professors in Porto Alegre and I love the country and I'm

looking for I will be visiting at some Point in May or April something Like That so to your question detect and all 2014 the students coming in were much more depressed and anxious fragile easily offended easily upset we never seen anything like it um Now with mental Health statistics it often Takes a couple Years between when things are measured and when we academics know about the results so it wasn't until 2017 that we began to see graphs of especially anxiety and depression they were very stable the levels were very stable uh from the late 1990s

all the way through 2010 2011 there's no Sign wasid E aí o que vocês detectaram era que o problema principal era com o advento dos celulares com câmeras frontais e acesso à redes sociis é isso Yes took a while to figure out the story um and it was the key was Once we discovered that it wasn't just happening in the US it was happening identically in all the english speaking countries certainly in britain Canada Australia New zealand It was happening in scandinavia it wasn't happening in eastern Europe so much so It's Not every single Country

but it seems to be most countries and Since it happened globally you to in the United States you have to look for Global cause and either it's the Change In childhood That happened inly 2010s or Somebody released a Chemical somewhere you know most parts of the world in 2011 that suddenly made Young people depressed and I don't think That's What happened so Yes it's the book the anxious Generation tells The Story Of The Great rewiring of childhood from a play Bas childhood which is what we used to have at least in the United States when

I was Growing Up um le prazer entrevistá-lo Professor o seu argumento Central no livro tem esses dois lados mais Smartphone mais Red social e menos brincar livre no entanto desde que o livro foi lançado o debate parece muito só no telefone só nas redes sociis e muito pouco no brincar livre pergunto por que o senhor acha que a gente tá falando muito menos do brincar livre e queria que o senhor explicasse telespectador que que configura esse brincar livre have this long Human childhood ours is very Slow other species they grow very quickly until they can

reproduce and they reproduce we Slow Down We have this long period uh you know age 45 through about 11 12 Where there's very Slow growth that appears to be um a cultural apprenticeship a period for learning Basic Skills and then learning your Culture and so the way that Kids learn best is from free Being unsupervised adults that's how they Learn to take responsibility for themselves in the United States we Changed All That in the 1990s we got very afraid that our Children Would Be kidnapped um or Hit by a car and we we brought them

inside we did not Let Them out to play we thought it was too Dangerous and we deprived them of Play All mammals Play Baby Monkeys baby squirrels baby goats That's What mammals have to do to Wire up their Brains and if you take out most of the play most the Independence most sunshine most of the shared if you take out All those things take 60% of them from a Human childhood and replace it with 5 Hours A Day ofal media mostly watching short videos if you do that You're Going to STE neural development in different

ways and You're Going to get a different kind of Human Being and that I think is What happened to gen when ch very quickly from thebas childhood to the phas childhood between 2010 15 and the kids Who went through puberty during that time came out differently um I'm sorry to directly address your question um I don't think there's much controversy about what I just said nobody is disputing Me nobody is saying oh he is wrong Kids don't need to play of course they do so there's no controversy around the Idea that we need far more

free play and unised play the controversy is between me and a group of certo Michel Jonathan e a epidemia de problemas de saúde mental é uma realidade no Brasil também no àa seu livro fez tanto sucesso por aqui mas quando a gente olha pro ao longo da história momentos de grandes transformações sociais em geral dão ins sofrimento na virada do século XIX pro século XX com a entrada da modernidade as neuróticas pararam no consultório do Freud e nas artes teve um certo pessimismo e uma depressão quando a gente olha pros anos de 1970 a gente

vê que depois da Revolução dos costumes houve um bum dos saberes pcis e das drogas psicodélicas e agora mais uma vez a vida tá pelo avesso pelo impacto das plataformas digitais Por que que você acha que dessa vez a gente precisa se preocupar E por que que a gente tá à beira de um colapso ise Faster and moreas everen How much ch when we got electricity Life ch radically but that was over 30 50 Years um when we got computers Life ched but very slowly there's Never Been a Change this Fast and it's not just

affecting Kids you think listening here do you feel the technology le social media and having a phone do you feel it has improved your psychological wellbeing or do you feel overwhelmed just constantly interrupted fragmented It's Harder to do anything Takes concentration um so We're experiencing very Rapid Change in almost everything about the way we live the way we Talk the way we have sex or certainly the way Children learn about sex the things we Focus on um the fact that our reputations are are so vulnerable to Being Shattered instantly This is a terrible way to

live It's having pervasive Effects around the world on adults as well as Young people but I'm focused on the Young people because when you change things during puberty that's the key thing to Focus on when you go through in puberty the brain is rewiring very rapidly from the child form to the adult form so puberty is a very sensitive time let say AG 15 or soly puberty that's the most Sensi time for Brain development other than the first Years and what we do All Around the World Kids Are getting on Instagram and tikt around the

age of 10 or 11 and so they're Going through puberty entirely on social media and that I think is blocking their emotional development their Confidence their social Skills for the boys especially everyone Says hard to get to make contact Isabel Oi professor prazer entrevistá-lo professor no no eh os pais da geração z também são usuários muito acidos das das redes sociais e dos celulares mas no seu livro e entrevistas anteriores eu vi que o senhor não não considera que esse comportamento dos Pais seja eh seja tão determinante o que ele influencie tanto as crianças e

adolescentes Por que o senhor acha que o exemplo dos pais não é tão determinante para um uso saudável dos celulares uhum Lines from the 90s through 2011 there's no change for anyone really no Big Trends and then the Lines for the for the for gen shooting up but the Lines for middle-aged people and older they Stay very flat so the levels of depression and anxiety in adults and older people Born before uh well say before the millennial certainly so say before 1980 people Born before 1980 at least United States they're not going up in depression

anxiety now that doesn't me there not a problem and so as I said We're alling fragmented and overwhelmed but I'm not focusing on the adults because when we look at the costs and benefits of social media for adults there are many benefits many businesses depend on on Instagram or other platforms so if an adult makes an informed Choice to use social media even though the platforms are designed to be Addictive you that's their Choice and many reas they Might to doal media can Young teens ag 10 to 13 What are the benefits I see zero

benefits to spending Hours A Day on Instagram and tikt zero I can't find a sle good thing that happens to Children when they do that at the same time harm puberty this isus puberty Maria Clara Jonathan no seu livro você faz algumas recomendações para tentar frear essa crise de saúde mental nos jovens nos adolescentes primeiramente eu queria que o senhor falasse pra gente quais são elas e sobre uma específica eu vou me adiantar de barrar os celulares nas escolas celulares livres de escolas livres de celular não seria o caso de vez de proibir os celulares

educá-los para usar de maneira correta we got into this Trap because everyone else was doing something and we had to Do It our Children had to have a Smart because everyone else had it our if All We to give our Kids aart age 14 that's the first norm We're not going to Let Them have a social media account especially not Instagram or tikt until they 16 The Third norm is phone free schools we must Get The phones out of the schools that is Children must Lock them up when They come to school Them in a

pouch or a Locker and they get them back at the End of the day and the fourth norm is more free play and Independence in the real world so those are the four norms um the first two are about keeping Kids away from smartphones and social media for a while now many people say why don't we just educate them we tried that nobody's having Luck with that These Things are so Addictive When A Kid has a smartphone they have the entire internet in their Pocket they have millions of companies trying to get to them to

catch their attention and the ones that are best at Catching attention are the ones that Become Popular so You Only get One childhood and Since education is very very weak on this 10 11 12 Years they don't have well developed frontal Cortex they they can't just say oh you know this is bad for me so I won't do it if everyone is Sending Snapchat messages or everyone's talking about a tikt video The Kid is going to do it too and they're going to do it during Class my children went to New York City Public schools

the you know the Rule is oh You're Not alled to take out your phone during Class but everyone does you Hide it in your book you sit in the back Row so the teachers are Universal on this the teachers hate the phones they can't reach the students because they're on their phones even if they seem to be looking at You they're Thinking About the drama that's going on on the phone so uh phone Tree schools that is Essential It's Easy it always Gets good results always i i I've looked for schools that Did it and

and and they had to undo it because it it it was Bad I can't find them was on their they inass but now wear theming anding and a much education sch students are Enjoy School if they can talk with their Friends don't Enjoy when Constant internet drama all day Long and then they go home Constant boao Obrigada pela entrevista eu como escritora de livros infantes juvenis acredito muito na literatura como forma de Educar crianças e jovens e de promover o que o nosso Educador Paulo Freire chama de leitura do mundo eu gostaria de saber a

sua opinião sobre a leitura e em especial sobre a leitura de livros digitais a gente tem pesquisadores neurocientistas como a Dra Mayane Wolf preocupadas também com o excesso de leitura no mundo digital gostaria de ouv a sua opão a respeito Oh yes H faning books a book Takes a Long To im in for long of Time Stories are humans evolved withor we Stories around campfire you for many Hours that's a good thing but What happens when you have a digital device you know i i do all my Reading on um on Kindle because uh you

know because it's like it's just Easy to i have it everywhere I can copy and paste but When I'm Reading on this thing I then check the weather I check How my book is doing on Amazon I look at my texts and I constantly get distracted so I do think that paper books um are incredibly valuable and from what we hear and act the data shows Young people are Reading very few books the level of Reading books It's been Going Down Since the 1970s but It's Going Down very fast Now many Children read no books

they can't they don't have the ability to to Stick with a book that long We're even seeing this Among College students It's very hard for them to read a book the debate has mostly focused on mental illness but We need to bring in the educational are 2012 and we need to bring in the Shing of the ability to ption and this is what the Electronic life is doing to Kids I say We need to get the phones out of schools first but next we going to have to get the iPads and Chrome books out especially

for the Younger Kids all of These Things came in in 2012 education now is you're on a screen all day Long and that means tting all day Long and means distracted all day long so to be mucher to com isso então a gente fea o nosso primeiro bloco com o Jonathan h vai para um rápido intervalo e vol já já rodv [Música] educação que transforma [Música] Bradesco estamos de volta com Roda Viva que hoje recebe o psicólogo social professor da nyu Jonathan h eu queria eh falar sobre o que você mencionou numa resposta anterior a

respeito dos eh que contestam as evidências sobre eh a correlação entre o uso de telas e essa crise de saúde mental você disse que há muitas evidências mas por exemplo eh pesquisadores até jornalistas apontam que a crise de saúde mental é comum a todas as idades então que não haveria correlação com uso de telas entre jov você conta ISO do you spend on social media or on your phone or on Video Games and then they Ask How's your mental Health or are you anxious or they give them a five Point scale so we have What

is the correlation between the number of Hours they say and their report of their anxiety and the Finding is almost always that that There is a correlation but it's a very small Number correlations you get correlations around one the correlation coefficient Point One which is not uncommon in mental Health Effects but it is relatively small but Here's the thing we know that harm is Being done at an Industrial scale we know this from the companies themselves in each of the companies especially meta whistleblowers The employees Who came forward Within the Company and Said Hey massive

sexual harassment is coming on 15% of Kids received a sexual Advance on Instagram in the last Week we Just Got Revelations from Snapchat in the United States One of our attorney General the state of new Mexico ising Snapchat and in the in the legal process they got internal mem from the Company It turns Out they get 10,000 complaints a month of sexor Where Someone pretends To Be A sexy Young woman and they flirt with a boy especially especially hitting Boys they flirt with a boy and they say hey you know Here's a photo of me

send me a photo Of You and then you get a photo of the boy with showing his pen then Person reveals that they're not a Sexy Young wom they're an extortion ring based somewhere around the world and they say you know Give Me You Know give me this amount of money or I will Show your Photo to all of Your Friends buse I'm connected to all of Your Friends um the FBI so 10,000 reports a month of this sort of thing and that's only the ones that are reported so We're Talking millions and millions of

Young people are Being sexed every Year just on Snapchat um and many them kill themselves I mean not most obviously but the FBI found in a sample of 16,000 reports they found 21 suicides because many Kids when they're so sham they just kill themselves so harm is Being done at an Industrial scale so why doesn't it show up in the correlational studies and the reason is Because The correlational stud Are taking very crude measures of small of are so many harms happening to Kids such se Is that Kid that doesn't show up when you look

How many Hours A Day spending Hours A Day pi up a Tiny portion of the vari of all the different harms and then these researchers say Oh well look the correlation is so Tiny so there's no harm Wait a second we have Evidence that millions of Children are Being harmed so I think there's in the kind of research theal scien focused on one more thing that we do In The Social sciences is We Say We're Going to Blend Together all the platforms Everything they do electronically even if Instagram is What's causing depression for girls and

they say We're Going to Blend Together boys and girls even though the depression link is especially through girls and they say We're Going to Blend Together every Possible outcome are you happy uh you know positive and negative even though when you Zoom in on anxiety and depression you always find bigger Allan fis a criação do Instagram accounts né prometendo oferecer um maior controle parental eu vi um comentário seu aí me corrija por favor se eu tiver equivocado que era um primeiro passo importante mas que ações muito mais robustas ainda precisariam ser feitas quais são essas

ações você consegue nos dizer por parte das bigtech das grandes empresas de Tecnologia [Música] content eating disorders to Girls Who want to Lose weight How do we Stop them Sending Suicide content to teens Who are depressed but content is small Piece of what's going on now my vi Is that these platforms arei Beat there's no verification can old can anything Where other people including Around the World Who want sex with them or money from them Strangers Who are not verified hosted by companies that are not legally liable in the United States we created terrible and

We Said we have there a Law 230 there a Law that Says we the companies forever they do because they're not publishers they're just platforms so we have a Perfect Storm to Create a Race to grab Kids and keep them on with no concern for their welfare and That's why we have Industrial scale harm so I don't think there's Any way to Fix this there's no way to make Instagram Safe for 10-year olds even for 13y olds there's no way to do it if Instagram could only show Nice photos of other Kids having Happy lives

would this Be Good For 12y old Girls to flip through photos of other 12-year old Girls Who are Pretti and happier than they are or at least appear to be no There is no way to Fix this it's just completely inappropriate for Children so The Big thing We need to do is Raise the age ideally it would be 18 uh if you're legally an adult Okay fine You Can Take these risks and there May be some uses for you but if you're under 18 we should treat this the way we treat gambling the way we

treat Alcohol the way we treat tobacco just Not appropriate for Children so I'd like the age to be raised to 18 But my goal as a social psychologist is not to find the perfect level It's to find the achievable level we have to get a norm and the norm I believe Should Be 16 that I think we could get that we could do parents can just wait they can just say no you can't have it and if a lot of Us Do It then itl be much easier but really What We Need is the law

really What We Need Is age verification right now the legal age for Opening accounts is 13 um at 13 you're allowed to give Away your data And and uh and be treated like an adult Without Your parents knowing that you're on the platform that's the current L it's terrible and there's no age verification requirement We need to Raise that to 16 and the responsibility on the companies to verify the age parents can't Do It We Can't Keep our Kids away from pornography Instagram tiktok Snapchat We Can't Keep them Away unless we keep them away from

the internet so We need government mandates that the companies play a part a big part in age verification that would be a Game changer one thing I do like about the about the new Instagram uh accounts Is that Instagram has for the first time said 16 is a significant Age which is very important uh they they say below 16 you can't change the privacy defaults Without Your parents involvement if you're over 16 then you can do anything and the world can do anything to you but at least it Says under 16 Now of course that

just means that 10-year olds have to Lie and say they're 16 until Now they just Lie and say they're 13 but now they'll have to start lying and saying they're 16 so The Big thing We Need Is age verification with you know and enforcement that would be a Global game changer and I'm very excited that Australia is looks like they're going to do it um and uh uh britain is moving In That Direction several US States are like Florida are passing laws saying uh you have to be 16 to Open an account certo Michel Jonathan

eh eu fiquei muito surpreso que no final do seu livro você propõe que os jovens né até 14 anos não tenham smartphones e até 16 não ten acesso às redes sociais só que você sabe bem né que o mundo vem se tornando num lugar cada vez mais desigual E nós como antropólogos ou psicólogos sociais a gente precisa levar também em contexto eh para poder fazer nosas recomendações eu fico pensando olhando para cenário da América Latina e também paraos Estados Unidos certamente que os celulares nas periferias eles assumem papéis muito importantes eles tiram os jovens da

rua de perto da violência e colocam dentro de casa em famílias com pouca escolarização os vídeos no YouTube permitem que eh os professores de YouTube ajudem a formação dessas crianças e a gente também consegue fazer com que os jogos online ocupem um espaço de entretenimento para quem não tem Praça ou espaço público para brincar eh olhando para Médio prazo e para curto prazo para famílias que não V tiar cri agora que que você sug so let's at equity andal Class issues in United States in 190 we talked the digit divide we thought Rich Kids have

computers and internet access but Kids from low social Class they don't have access so we have themed And and we thought oh it's so important in schools at least in School every Kid Should have a computer and so we thought This was an equity issue and many philanthropist gave money so that schools could buy iPads And chromebooks and of course the companies are pushing them uh on schools uh because they want they Fighting between the Apple world and the the Google World so around 2012 our schools became flooded with educational technology What is the effect

um The digital divide has reversed uh when you look at the data on screen use and and Everything else what you find Is that Children from wealthy Families have many more restrictions they have many more controls on what they do They spend many fewer Hours A Day on this whereas the further down you go in in in in ses the further down You Go the greater the use the greater the abuse the greater the The Bad Things That Happen the greater the Addiction uh and the greater the distraction so when we look at the schools

if you look at the founders of the technology companies If You Go to Silicon Valley what you find Is that a lot of them send their Kids to the Waldorf School which has zero technology zero because they know these people know what the technology does to Kids they they limit it to their Own for their Own Kids many do not let their Children have it They Don't Let their Children on social media They Don't Let their nannies some of them make the Nanny you know the Nanny has to sign a Contract Will not take out

her phone around the child they know how Bad this Stuff is so they Protect their Children from it but the further down you go in in ses the more the children are exposed to it so The digital divide has now reversed the Rich Kids have protections the poor Kids To Hell with them give them a device when they three or four Let Them sit there and spend their whole childhood on a screen so This Is this is an emergency If You Care About about low income people and Low income Children This is an emergency especially

for them problems Rich Kids Are nearly as S Now of course are Are neighborhoods and perhaps more Dangerous for in poor neighborhoods for the kids to go out to play there's more crime so we we do need to be more thoughtful about how we give Children free play and one Simple Solution which I Started i co-founded a group Called let grow If You Go to let grow.org Solution we Call Play every school hour mas isso aqui num país como o Brasil tão desigual a gente tem as favelas aqui em que isso não seria viável cabe

mais ao poder público do que aos educadores e aos pais você imagina esses that great that we have to be we just have to think about How to get there in the past we didn't have to think about How to get there because all the kids out to play Kid I grew up in 197 during crime we had a lot of crime iner in 1970 but all certo Leon Professor a gente já falou de uma das primeiras críticas ao seu trabalho que é a questão dos dados causais que não existem nós temos correlação nós temos

dados longitudinais alguns dados experimentais que são importantes mas eles não permitem segundo os críticos afirmar a causa mas o que mais me preocupa eles e as e os especialistas que eu mesmo conversei é que eles dizem que o foco excessivo eh nas redes sociais e no celular talvez seja simplista e não nos e não nos permita dar tanto foco e também em em outras questões que sejam tão importantes quanto recentemente saiu esse relatório da lanced commission eh de saúde mental eh da juventude que reúne especialistas do mundo inteiro Inclusive a Jin twing com quem você

trabalha bastante e eles falam falam sobre as megas mega tendências globais que poderiam ajudar a explicar essa epidemia de problemas de saúde mental na juventude eles citam o uso exagerado de mídias sociais Mas eles citam algumas outras coisas como desigualdade intergeracional aumentada erosão da segurança do trabalho no mundo todo perspectivas reduzidas de de adquirir uma casa e a crise de aluguel que afeta vários e vários países eu questiono se você acha que realmente esse foco excessivo nos celulares e nas redes sociais pode ser simplista e o que que você acha desses outros fatores levantados ali

como apontados como de risco para explicar essa crise dec my book is childhood my recommendations primarily about social media social media is a central actor in the story for Girls It's Not The Central actor in the story for Boys there's a lot more going on with Boys so when critics say that I say it's all social media that's just false they haven't read the book um so This is a Complicated developmental Puzzle and in the book and in my writing I go through why are cultural variations What other factors interact seconda theal of theas childhood

something else about poverty well of course poverty Matters but did everyone suddenly get in2 None of these theories can explain why Everything ched in 2012 all of these efforts to because racism because donal trump because exp3 so I don't these other work al not seen this L article thank you I will look that up but back to the first thing you said was that there's no causal Evidence that is not true there are thousands of correlational studies but there are a few dozen true experiments that use Random assignment to people to usually College students not

teens unfortunately but they use Random assignment and then they say reduce your social media use for a few weeks And let's track How you're doing a metaanalysis was published last year that looked at all of these and said Oh well the effect is so Tiny It's almost zero But my team we went into that metaanalysis What What are these 27 studies and what we discovered was that it was a Giant Blender study that is they took the experiments that went for a few weeks which is what you need to get Past withdrawal symptoms if you

take social media away from Kids the first few Days They Don't Feel Good It Takes a couple of weeks at least a Week or two before you start getting the benefits so we if you split out the ones that went a couple weeks versus the ones that went One Day What this author did was he in the experiments that went One Day of deprivation and he in a bunch of other experiments that were about exposing Kids to something in other Words he blended Everything Together and found Nothing that's the usual pattern what we did is

We Said just take the ones that went on for at least a Week guess What almost all of them showed a benefit so those Who Say oh it's all correlational no there are 15 of these experiments that almost All show a benefit from getting off social media so if we have the correlational studies we have the the correlations are much larger than is said if you Focus on on on social media girls and anxiety depression we have the correlations we have the experiments we have the testimony of whistleblowers in the companies attesting to massive harm

at an Industrial scale and we have the self report of the kids Young People themselves Don't particularly like social media in a study that we recently did we found almost half of them wish that tiktok was never invented they spend Hours A Day on it but they wish it didn't exist so everything is lining up to say Wait a second These Things are designed to adct Kids the companies say they're hurting Kids at least the internal mem say they're hurting com isso então a gente fecha o nosso segundo bloco do Roda Viva com o Jonathan

h vai para mais um rápido intervalo e volta já já discutindo essa geração ansiosa e o que fazer para deix menos ansiosa [Música] educação que transforma Bradesco [Música] estamos de volta com Roda Viva que hoje tem a honra de trazer o Jonathan H autor de um grande bestseller a geração ansiosa Quem pergunta para ele agora é a Isabela Palhares Professor um dos pontos principais do seu livro Um dos pontos que o senhor mais defende é banir os celulares das escolas a gente vive hoje no Brasil um momento em que as escolas têm sido muito atacadas

T sido eh grupos políticos tem tem lançado muita desconfiança em cima das escolas com acusação de que os professores estariam doutrinando os alunos existe até um grupo de pais que defende hom schooling para proteger os filhos do ambiente escolar eh Nesse contexto eh Muitas vezes os pais enxergam o o celular como uma forma de estender a proteção pro filho e uma forma de controlar o que acontece dentro da escola senhora acha que nesse contexto né em que os pais sentem que eles precisam controlar o que acontece até mesmo dentro escola os pais V vão aimento

do cular no entecar break for kids for kids to in touch with parents All The Good For their parents to Tex theming Class and for them to the Tex and responding Class for parents to they can I don't see Any justification for parents uh interacting with their Children during the school Day Now what you refer to seems to be a decline of trust along political Lines political polarization we have the same thing here the educational establishment in almost All countries is going to lean to the left there's many reasons for that and in recent Years

I think education has Become more ideological in the United States so I understand the distrust that conservatives have for some Of The Things That Happen in School that's an important political issue does that mean that Children Should have a Smart with them all time and there again The answer is no um there are Ways to find out What's happening In Class your child can just tell you um you don't need you know you don't need your child to be taking a video of What's happening and imagine Being in a Class imagine Being a teacher Where

students are routinely recording it and taking anything you say out of Contex and it can up imag under ccan Happen to us as Professor I have to be very careful what I say Now because everyone has a phone and if everyone records something and they say it up on social media Who Knows What would Happen so I don't see Any real benefit from having it now in the United States the Main argument I get against This is oh what schoo I don't know if you havez inited States Young Men Who are disconnected and and they

read a Manifesto online from another Person Who shot up a school and so every Year we have several mass shootings in our schools and some parents say I want to be able to talk to my child if there's an emergency but What the experts say Is that if you want to keep your child Safe they Should Be quiet they should follow directions because they All have these drills in America our students have to do Shooter drills What do you do Where do you go andc you wantes anding to parents what you want the Expert say

is for them to follow directions Be quiet the teacher has a phone all the adults have a phone that's the thing to do so I don't know add your question will parents accept it what we find United States is a few of them w are few I have to the januar voltando pra questão do celular na escola no momento que o Brasil tá para decidir via Ministério da Educação a proibição do aparelho durante as aulas conversando com um jovem ele me disse quando a aula é interessante eu não me distraio com nada nem celular nem

com nenhuma outra coisa será que nós não estamos transferindo né para o celular toda essa epidemia de falta de atenção quando na verdade a gente deveria buscar conteúdos e formas de atrair né de abordar questões que são realmente importantes para as crianças e jovens gostaria de saber o que o senhor pensa um I see this in my students at nyu too imagine If You are raised so you never have to be bored not One Moment um our Young people Now of course they take their phones into the bathroom with them many of Us adults do

too um now that the iPhone is waterproof they take it into the shower some of them take it into the shower to listen to music and some of them respond to texts in the shower um in an elevator everyone pulls out their phone um if a lecture is boring everyone pulls out their Phone well it turns out that daydreaming Letting your mind Wander um is actually a very important Part of creativity uh I just talked with my students about this yesterday and they agreed they never have Moments of thought everything is content there's always content

coming in and if something isn't interesting Enough Well let's just Switch the content um and they generally agreed that this has made them less Creative that One One Boy said I used to be really Creative I had all things and then I got a and then all I do So what that teach ising is many Kids think This is boring I Should pull out my phone but We can't cater to that we can't say let's make the teacher more interesting than the phone no Let's say We need to teach Young people to pay attention to

things even when they boring and they Want toone Out much them to r a gente tem também Jonathan uma discussão grande sobre se Estamos numa era de excesso de Diagnósticos de transtornos mentais de transtornos ligados a déficit de atenção ao espectro autista e muita medicação de criança precocemente você acha que é o que veio primeiro né o excesso de telas levou a isso ou se a gente tirar as telas a gente pode inclusive começar a ver um decréscimo da quantidade de medicação e de diagnóstico de crianças very Serious and now the definitions lower and lower

but that's been happening for many decades what counts depression what counts child abuse all of that we have Concept Creep Where the the threshold Gets lower and lower is it too low perhaps in some that's not my area of expertise but the Point Is that was very gradual over many decades Since the 1970s or 80s that cannot explain why the levels of diagnosed mental illness were Constant they didn't go down or up they were Constant for many many years until 2011 and then all of a Sudden 2012 2013 they All Go shooting Up that's not

because in 2012 psychiatrists All decided hey let's lower the standards a lot and It certainly wasn't The Case that psychiatrists All Over The World decided hey let's lower the standards a lot that didn't Happen so the changing Diagnostic criteria is interesting but I don't see Any Connection between that and the teen mental Health Crisis they they don't they're not moving Together uh in Time um so I think that if we uh if we delay smartphones if we uh uh if we delay getting a smartphone until in America I say High School We need to get

it out of Middle School but in the rest of the world you have different School divisions so I think age 14 Should Be the minimum age not the recommended age but the minimum age for a smartphone Now remember The Kids Are still going to have access to a computer At home they can still get to the whole internet they can have a flip phone or a Basic phone they can Still tá aber roda marara deação emação a gente V novas tecnologias surgindo aí que Seme vem acompanhada com certo ní de preocupação rádio televisão com propagandas

super ostensivas paraas crianças que até o governo teve que regulamentar em muitos países e agora os smartphones as redes sociais e agora a gente vê o crescimento o surgimento da Inteligência Artificial você acha que essa pode afetar também a saúde mental das crianças de algum de alguma forma e o que que fazer para se prevenir com relação a isso uhum artificial intelligence is going to Transform so much of our lives and it is going to make almost all of The Bad Things about social media it's going to make them much worse so for example um

One Thing about social media and the phone based childhood is our Children are very Lonely um if you're spending 5 Hours A Day connecting with thousands of people hundreds of People Online you don't have any time to see your friends and that's what we see withs ited to Hours A Day people spend they their phes that drops to less than an hour a day so if so our Young people are very Lonely especially The Boys The Boys while they can Connect on video games but it's not the same as Being Together and Wrestling or having

Adventures so social media and the digital Life has made Kids very Lonely What's The Solution well this year we seeing a lot of ai companions The Solution is an ai friend The Solution and especially for for Boys Now an ai Girlfriend If You Can't Make ey contact with a girl you can't flirt you never learn How you're AW you're Lonely have an ai Girlfriend she is much sexier than Any girl in your Class she will not Fight with you she is Clever and wity you can dial up How much you want her to be sexy

or flirty or Dirty or naughty um soon they'll be implanted in robots have uh in fact the chinese are just to do this you have a sex Robot a sex Doll that has I don't know what they using but you have a sex Doll with ai in you know in Her so you can actually have a three Dimensional Girlfriend Who talks to you I don't think This is solving the problem I think This is making it a lot worse so we have to establish this year in 2024 we have to establish the principle that Children

are not adults that Technologies that help adults achieve their Ends May Block children from developing in fact I think that's What's happening so the phone based Life already Blocks children's development it stunts their growth especially for the boys The Boys are not turning into Men and ai is going to make that so much worse the Video Games and the pornography are going to be so Mind Blowing so incredibly enticing that a lot of Boys are just going to disappear that's already happening but it's going to Speed Up we just going to just do that Stuff

and live with their parents and we don't Michel Jonathan eh você num momento do livro diz que a infância no celular é bloqueadora de experiências e a gente sabe que as experiências são fundamentais não só pra humanização mas também pra solidariedade social e pra continuidade dos grupos eh você falou muito do ponto de vista individual assim do preço que a gente paga por tá muito no celular mas olhando pra sociedade que custos são esses que você acha que a gente vai pagar daqui pra frente cety so I'll give you the there are many many cost

to society so here are some Simple ones What is the cost to society if our Children are less well educated because that is happening around the world our Children know less the p a Data Set International Data Set On education shows education levels were stable until 2012 and now they're dropping and it wasn't Because Of covid Or at least it started before covid So what is the cost to society of a Global decline in education I think It's very High We're Finding that Young people read very few books um they're just consuming little bits of

content What is the cost to a society uh of of having a Generation that isn't Reading books that isn't learning from previous Generations that is not aware Of The Greatest works of literature and Art that were created that were passed down for Generations I think that cost is very High um We're seeing an enormous increase In The Number of Young Women Who Say They Don't ever want to have children and We're seeing an enormous increase In The Number of Young Men Who it looks like they're going to be incapable of attracting a woman and keeping

her so I think We're Going to see a very big decline with genz in rates of marriage and child bearing What is the cost to society if levels of marriage and child bearing go down sharply well we can look at Korea to see what happens when the birth rate goes down to one One child per woman and I think many of our societies are headed That Way um uh What is the cost to society of Rise in loneliness and a decline in trust um the Robert putnam wrote a really powerful book in the Year 2000

Called Bowling Alone I think It's known internationally it's about the decline of social capital the decline of Networks of trust So what happens when Nobody trusts anyone with ai in Two Years we won't know What's true You'll see Amazing videos there's no way to know what is true So what is the cost when we can't trust anything or anyone I think the cost to society is Isabel Jonathan apesar da gente ter visto algumas mudanças pontuais aí nas regras das bigtec a gente vê que elas não têm um grande interesse em fazer essas mudanças que são

necessárias pra gente proteger as crianças como a verificação de idade né pelo contrário elas cada mais desenvolvem ferramentas estratégias para atrair cada vez mais adolescentes e crianças mais mais novas a gente vê aqui no Brasil influencers com 4 5 anos o senhor acha que é papel é responsabilidade dos governos frear essas empresas não dá pra gente esperar que elas façam essas mudanças that do not harm other people and especially that do not harm Children When products are causing mass harm to millions of children we Ban them instantly um except with this one with this One

we just accepted Now America created this problem for the world are the companies are All American on the West Coast in California especially we created this problem uh we we told the companies um Nobody can Sue you you can do whatever you want You Can Take whatever Children you want you don't need to check their ages just make them say they 13 and you're fine um and these are these are publicly traded companies that have feel an obligation to Maximize shareholder value so they're in Competition with each other to grab Younger and Younger Children so

we created this problem now Can we solve it no for two reasons one is the companies are are the richest companies in the world and America has a political System Where It's very cheap to buy influence It's Amazing How Little money It Takes you know few million dollars you can have a Huge influence on on congress that's insane but that's what we have um also We're so politically polarized that while there's complete agreement for Now on phone free schools on protecting Kids There is complete agreement for protecting kids but age verification is going to involve

tradeoffs with full privacy And anonymity and if that's the Case then the libertarian elements of our society are going to Object strongly and America We can't anything Complicated We can't do anything in our congress unless One Party controls Everything which happens so we created the problem we are incapable of solving it we are never going to require a verification at the congressional level States are doing it but the US congress is probably never going to do it That's why we need you That's why we need the other countries To Do It because if you Australia

leading if Brazil were to join in and the eu were to join in if all of these countries were to say this insane American thing that you've imposed on the world you've unleash this on the world You're Not controlling Your Dog as it were um the rest of the world has to come together and say well dam it We're Going to control it We're Going to say no more for our Kids you can't do this to 9y olds you have to you have to verify if You're Going to provide a service that includes pornography Violence

Addiction Dangerous chige you figure it out you figur out Everything before you can Create advertising markets with billions of pieces information conduct a full auction certo con ISO então a gente encerra esse bloco vai para mais um intervalo e volta já já pro encerramento do Roda Viva com o Jonathan [Música] hde educação que transforma Bradesco [Música] estamos de volta com o Roda Viva que hoje recebe o autor do livro A Geração ansiosa Jonathan H Jonathan você falou de acesso a conteúdos pornográficos a gente discutiu um pouco eh o quanto a internet e as redes sociais

estão influindo nos relacionamentos interpessoais mas eu queria trazer um pouco a política para essa discussão a gente falou bastante de polarização mas não como acesso aos conteúdos produzidos eh por essa polarização podem levar a jovens cada vez mais radicalizados do ponto de vista do pensamento político e Como a cidadania não se exerce mais na pis ali né na praça em que você debate diferentes pontos de vista mas compra o seu se sente ali eh feliz naquela bolha e reproduz isso eternamente você acha que do ponto de vista da radicalização política esse acesso precoce à ser

sociis tambm é um problema is a kind of a conversation and um and out of that conversation comes consensual government comes limitations on government um and this is what has been working for a very long time in in the United States at least and What if Sudden You Take That conversation and you it in the middle of the Roman colum of course in the Roman colum people pay they would pay money to come and people Kill other and they would hum Fight with Animals and they would Animals kill each other it was Blood Sport it

was exciting it was degrading um that's not a conversation that's a spectacle Where people in the ST are roting they applauding for good Attacks That's What democracy has Become in the United States It's Not a conversation Where neighbors Might be restrained by the fact they Together screaming match ament twit all the assumptions about democracy that went into the founding of the United States our founding fathers were very good psycholog all of those assumptions are now violated and the effect on the citizens the effect on the politicians is gigantic we don't know the democrac cer Professor

quando os pesquisadores perguntam pros jovens redes sociais smartphone estão fazendo mal PR sua saúde mental o que a gente encontra eu a muito curioso são resultados misturados em geral é meio a meio Óbvio se a gente olhar para grupos específicos LGBT mulheres é diferente recentemente o senhor publicou um desses levantamentos que encontrou resultados que conversam com que outros pesquisadores também já tinham visto essa coisa de 50 50 eu queria te perguntar como é que a gente entende esse resultado but that's not what we do with consumer products for Children imagine if There Was A consumer

product some Toy that was very exciting and 80% said they love it and 20% said I've been injured by this thing you know it cut me it it you know cut off my ear uh I was emotionally damaged by it 8020 I mean This is obviously a very good Toy right um no with consumer products for children we say if It's Killing even Just a few of them I mean if It's kill you know in the United States 10 or 12 Children A Year die from Ching on Toy parts and we warnings on that um

but you know in the peak year of the of The choking Challenge ti challenge Where supposed to strangle yourself more than that Number died so tikt itself kills more Children than all the Toys combined In terms of choking um is not not 50 if are vast numbers of Children Being Hurt consumer Januário Professor gostaria de saber a sua opinião sobre a educação midiática Ah o Senhor deu quatro conselhos né Quatro atitudes eh possíveis de serem tomadas já mas a gente sabe da importância da educação para o uso adequado das Mídias e a educação é sempre

um processo a longo prazo como é que o senhor vê a questão da educação midiática não apenas nas escolas né mas para toda think think people are not understanding that social media is socially Addictive it is biologically Addictive for some Heavy users but the Main Addiction is social that is if everyone else is on it I have to be on it I Don't Want To Miss Out and their conscious Mind you're telling you know as with smoking education as with drug education it doesn't have much effect on their behavior because Young because teenagers are much

more influenced by What their pe are doing than by Any information you could give them about their Health I I think It's Fair to say that most Young people would be happy to take a Risk with their Health if it kept Them in a state of High Prestige and faced with A Drop In Prestige they would willingly Take a hit to their Health ifuture the tobacco Industry urged education inad of bans every Industry hurting Children Ures education as The Solution instead of them taking responsibility so I'm not impressed by the What I've seen the move

mas eu a quando em educação midiática ela também fala em educar esses jovens e essas crianças para se informar da maneira apropriada e não consumir desinformação e fake News que vem muito por meio dessas dessas mídias num momento em que o jornalismo enfrenta graves eh problemas para chegar nesse público mais jovem so Esse aspecto de educação mediática o que o senhor acha que seria eficaz reasoning the large Elephant is all the Automatic intu social processes you can lecture the all you want you can say look you know be careful about fake news and here you

can tell you can let theer all you want but the Rider is not in control isol and tolu what it sees even if it Knows This is not true going to be influenced these these social for are so powerful and especially for a child even for adults it's hard For Us to just Change our behavior um but for a child to change his behavior because What the teacher said or to change his interpretations because What the teacher said when all of the Stuff coming in on tikt creates intu Frame Michel Jonathan eh olhando pros estudiosos

da tecnologia do impacto disso na nossa vida eu acho que a gente pode dividir dois grandes grupos de um lado você tem o pessoal que crê que a tecnologia é solução para tudo e gera uma uma certa Euforia e de outro lado você tem os fatalistas que geram um certo desalento quando eu li teu livro eu fiquei um pouco desalentado vocês se consideram fatalista not at all I love technology and Clear the Tech Industry is thousands of companies that make our lives better and or companies that Now control Human childhood and are stomping on it

so It's really Just a few companies We're talking about here that are doing most of the Damage um I used to be a Techno optimist um but now I think that our technology is advancing so Fast that our societies cannot keep up with it and We're Going to have very High levels of Chaos and Change in the coming so In That sense Yes I Fair ne that's but we look at's happening with Kids I am I am just astonished at how fast things are changing um my book came out in March and Since then schools

are going phone free All Over The World countries are passing laws raising the age everyone was ready to act Any adult most ofs Who Deal With Children Saw the problem they they didn't have the coordination device to say here what we do marara e o bul Apesar de todas as ações a gente V que essa é uma preocupação muito grande na comunidade escolar pelo menos aqui no Brasil acredito que nos Estados Unidos também a gente viê que os números crescem mesmo com essas ações foram 121.000 casos registrados em cartórios aqui no Brasil que dá uma

média superior a mais de 10.000 casos por mês você não acha que essa é uma parcela significativa também para afetar a saúde mental das crianças e dos jovens and when It's Over many Days then you have a kid Who doesn't want to go to school Who is is anxious all the time um but at least On weekends It Used To Be at least on weekends they're not Being bullied but that's not true Anymore um now that the bullying has moved on to social media platforms Now it can go on 24 Hours A Day S Days

a Week and there are many known cases in in the United States and in britain of Young people Who were Being bullied and then they Killed themselves their parents didn't even know they were Being School the teachers will find out about it so Children are vulnerable to buing All Over The World especially around age 12 13 It's intense most intense around there and that's exactly the age that we give them social media and so they Do It there and more brutal and more sham prog fala muito sobre a diferença de como as redes sociais afetam

meninos e meninas que pras meninas o efeito seria mais perverso mais danoso mas assim como nos Estados Unidos a gente viveu aqui no Brasil uma onda de ataques contra escolas e os autores são sempre meninos né E sempre tem um histórico do do do do episódio ser eh pensado dentro das redes sociais você acha que um uso mais controlado das redes sociais poderia evitar essas esses casos de agressão tão grave gente vocês Yes to Open aal media account and if the companies are forced to age verify then we would have there Might be some Kids

Who would get around it but it would not be that most Kids Are on it so again There is no way to make this Safe when you networ Children con toang no way toe yes Jonathan te agradeço muitíssimo por essa entrevista tão esclarecedora já fica aqui a dica para todo mundo do livro Essa é a versão em papel para não deixar ninguém com a atenção fragmentada para poder mergulhar no livro muito obrigada pleasure Thank é isso nosso programa chegou ao fim além de agradecer imensamente ao Jonathan H pela entrevista Eu também estendo esses bancada que

conduziu a conversa comigo mich alcoforado Maria Clara Cabral Leon Ferrari Isabela Palhares Januária Cristina Alves Luciano verones e lesli benzaquen obrigada sobretudo a você pela sua audiência a cada semana em relação aos mais diferentes assuntos que a gente traz aqui a justa medida entre restrições ao acesso de jovens a tecnologia e a necessidade de usá-la no dia a dia como ferramenta para segurança ição e no próprio processo de aprendizado tem fritado a cabeça de especialistas e pais cada vez mais perdidos sobre como proceder escolas brasileiras como a gente abordou aqui começaram a adotar a proibição

a celulares vai levar algum tempo e muita observação até que tenhamos dados confiáveis a respeito de se essas medidas levarão de fato a uma melhoria em marcadores de saúde mental e no próprio ambiente escolar mas se os Limites não forem aplicados em casa depois que a criança ou o jovem cruza os portões da escola de pouco ou nada vai adiantar há um desafio pros pais de como recolocar os seus filhos no mundo real para que lidem com pequenos riscos e tenham interações sociais que vão prepará-los para resolver problemas quando eles forem adultos para quem quiser

uma ajuda sobre o que fazer o livro do Jonathan H fornece muitos dados e algumas respostas viva fica aqui e volta na próxima segunda-feira como sempre com um debate para fazer pensar eu espero você até lá [Música] educação que transforma Bradesco m