I segreti del Vaticano con la “Papessa” Francesca Immacolata Chaouqui | Pulp Podcast #02

But I mean, do you think it's plausible that the Pope knows where a dead person is and doesn’t say it? But let me ask you this, can you even conceive that? I can. The world of the Vatican and all the mysteries it holds. Today we’ll try to uncover what’s hidden beneath the surface of a small town, can we call it that? A small town called the Vatican, with a special guest who has given very few interviews over the last decade. A guest who's been involved in many events wrapped in mystery. Almost calm with the fact

that the new documents are now public. Once again, Francesca Chaouqui, former member of the Holy See's commission for economic affairs and accused in the Vatican's Vatileaks 2 trial, speaks out on social media. How will this story end? Doesn't matter. Are you at peace? Very much, see? Someone took advantage of you? Well, I'd say someone framed me! I'm here for the truth and for the Holy Father. Today's the day of truth. Of all the things you could say about Francesca Immacolata Chaouqui, there's one that's objective. She's the only woman who's been sentenced to prison by the

Vatican State. Joining us today on Pulp Podcast, Francesca Immacolata Chaouqui, also known as the Popess. Tell us a little about your career and how in 2013, you entered the COSEA. Sorry, I have to read it it's a pretty long acronym. The commission for the study and direction of the organization of the economic and administrative structures of the Holy See, led by - Monsignor Lucio Anghel Vallejo. - Yes Tell me, how did you end up in - that magical world? - Ok, the appointment to the COSEA is trust-based, meaning the Holy Father selected seven members in

this commission who came from all over the world. He picked me as the only woman, only Italian and only 30-year-old. So I joined this commission, which, among its many tasks, had the task of rationalizing the finances and economy of the Vatican. When Pope Benedict resigned, it became clear that the finances of the Holy See needed... let's say they needed to be managed-- --To be managed better. Pope Francis, during his meetings with the cardinals before the conclave realized that one of the first things he needed to take care of, was rationalizing the finances of the Holy

See. So, three months after he was elected he decided to do something that had never been done before: he allowed seven lay members-- in fact, the secretary of the commission, Monsignor Vallejo, was the only prelate, to check, to look into the financial records of the Holy See and take a snapshot of the state of these finances. We had to propose reforms that should have made the management of economic affairs transparent. That was our task and that's why they called me. Just picture this, in a place where never before had a woman first of all, held

a role of prestige that reported - directly to the Pope. - So it was a direct appointment made by Pope Francis. Can I say that you call him Pacio? Can I say it? I mean, you're so close to the Pope that you call him Pacio. - Paco - Oh, Paco, not Pacio, sorry! Pastor, boss... So you guys knew each other even before? Before you joined the COSEA. Next question? Off to a great start! Well I guess you did, if he appointed you! I doubt he picked you randomly! So, before you entered that wold, what was

your relationship with first of all faith, and also the Vatican? As for my relationship with faith, I am Catholic, I am Christian, and if I hadn't been, I couldn't have been appointed to that commission. Because first and foremost, I wouldn't have accepted. Before I was appointed I was one of the youngest managers in this country. At 23, I was leading the Public Relations department of an international firm with offices in 20 countries. So let's just say I wasn't exactly doing nothing. When I was appointed, I was the head of external relations at Ernst & Young,

so... I had other things going on. But then, I accepted and when you accept something like this, you do it primarily--first and foremost-- because you truly believe in it. It was an institutional role, in fact, it reported directly to the Pope. And it was covered by state secrecy. Cause the Vatican before anything else, is a state led by a monarch. The Pope is the monarch. - Right. - And when you entered this world, what struck you the most at first? What stood out the most? Let's see, what struck me the most... Well, definitely, without a

dobut, it was understanding what I was called to do. You know that you're about to change forever the organization of a state that had had those administrative structures in place for about 70 years. You're called to change something that will have an impact on 6 billion people! I mean, the number of Christians worldwide is currently about 6 billion. And those 6 billion will somehow be affected by it. The Vatican, the importance of the Holy See, the importance of the Holy See's financial affairs, is what guarantees the Pope's freedom. And the freedom to appoint bishops. Appointing

bishops means being able to spread the word of God around the world. The Vatican is the only state in the world that sits at the UN, not to protect the interests of its own citizens like other states, but to safeguard the global interest of humanity, and this is extremely important— On paper. No, I mean... I could give you a thousand examples of how the Holy See protects the interests - of the world. - Yeah, and there are just as many examples of how it's protected its own interests. Objectively speaking. Yeah but when someone protected their

own interests, the Vatican’s court intervened and sentenced them to 50 years in prison. We have to separate the Vatican of the past, which is what you're describing, and the Vatican led by Pope Francis, where if someone makes a mistake, —even if they’re a cardinal— is held accountable and removed the next day. So, going back, when you found yourself having to manage, the finances within the Vatican, what did you - find out? - What I found out in detail is still property of the Holy See, covered by state secrecy. Obviously we can't talk about it. Let's

talk about what's become public. What's become public is, unfortunately, a financial management that didn't align with what Pope Francis had outlined. The management of funds wasn't - very transparent - We're talking about the IOR? Well... ok, the financial bodies of the Holy See are the IOR the APSA, and the Secretariat of State. So, basically, these are the three organizations that manage money. Out of these three, the one that was easiest to make transparent and efficient was the IOR. Second was the APSA, which also manages the life of the dicasteries. The most complicated one was the

Secretariat of State. That was what made the management of the finances of the Holy See more challenging. Because it managed a reserved fund, the Peter's Pence fund, which is the fund that receives all the donations from all over the world. So, obviously these funds are invested. You have to invest them because, I mean, it's a lot of money. Right? - Yeah, of course - More or less, I'm curious, what figures are we talking about? How much does the Vatican collect in donations each year? It depends. Because lately, it’s dropped quite a bit. Not much. Each

diocese has to contribute to Peter's Pence. Some dioceses donate several million, like the German ones, others are poorer. So... So, during the period you were there, roughly, how much did it amount to? Just to get an idea of the volume-- Around 50 million every year. 50 million in donations. Not bad. Contributions, yeah. They come from both the people, and... but it's probably a bit less now. I don’t have - the exact figure - Yeah, just a rough number. This fund is used not only for the Pope’s charitable works, it’s called Peter's Pence cause it allows

the Pope to be free to carry out charitable activities and also for the management of the life of the Curia. The Curia is responsible for managing-- Yeah, there are administrative expenses... So, with these inspections, an investigation broke out and it gained worldwide attention. The Vatileaks scandal, followed by Vatileaks 2. We could say that, in a way, you were somehow the turning point in this journalistic investigation. Let me tell you what happened. Basically, the commission finds out that, during its own work, in the Secretariat of State, as they used to do before Pope Francis was elected,

some of the funds from Peter's Pence were used to purchase a building in London. And not only was this building in London how can I say this... paid far more than its actual value, but a series of deals were made that caused the Holy See to lose about 300 million euros. These 300 million euros pretty much disappeared. 300 million euros disappeared. In these operations, the freedom to choose where and how to invest, is exactly what they wanted to keep outside of any control, basically. So, when Pope Francis decided to make these processes transparent, the Curia

was against it. Cause maintaining this freedom— you can imagine what it means to be able to say 'I'll invest 10 million here and 10 there' Even in terms of worldly power. Yeah, I get it. It's real power. And then this random girl shows up and says 'Father, look, you can’t do this.' Without giving an explanation You just can't because Pope Francis had given a series of clear instructions regarding financial management, that should follow he said they had to follow an outlined code of ethics. - The code of ethics. - Exaclty. So, I arrived at the

Secretariat of State, raised my finger... Imagine the Secretariat of State, the place where it's located in the Vatican. It's called the Third Loggia. There's a huge corridor in this, let's say Apostolic Palace. So, imagine there's silence and two Swiss Guards standing at the entrance, in front of the elevator. When you get to the Third Loggia, it's quiet. And the only thing you could hear at that time was the sound of my heels. So imagine, this cathedral is completely deserted. I get there in my heels and I say, ‘Sorry, excuse me, from now on, you can

no longer do - what you’ve been doing.' - Can you give us an example? I can give you an example. At that time there was this Cardinal, Angelo Becciu, who wanted to invest in an oil well, an oil platform in Angola, brought in by some unspecified intermediaries who were supposed to funnel the money through Credit Suisse and carry out the operation. I get there and say, 'Listen, I don't think we should go through with this because if you do, I'll tell the Holy Father.' And, of course, the "big cardinal" said 'Who do you think you

are?' and he told me, 'You’ll see that soon enough, you won’t be in a position to tell me what I can or can’t do.' - So he threatens you. - Yeah. - And not subtly. - Yeah, of course. That happened all the time. I always say that anyone else who might have been... let's say, a bit weaker, would have ended up in a much worse situation. Mentally. That's true because you had to deal with a series of legal struggles after the VatiLeaks case broke. It was powerful because in my opinion, it created a disconnect between

what one might expect from the Vatican State. Yeah there’s also a kind of ethical code, a code of humanity. Look, here's the paradox: I went to this Cardinal and told him, "Listen, don’t do this." This person a year later involved me in a leak of information that happened because the secretary of the commission wanted to share with the press what we found out. Cause he believed transparency, including journalistic transparency, regarding what had been discovered, was one of the cornerstones of the reform. So, since he couldn't do it in agreement with the Holy See, he decided

- to do it on his own - To leak thise documents. And he gave the documents to two journalists. - Respectively, Fittipaldi and Nuzzi - Correct. So, he decided to do this, but the Cardinal knew that the only person he really needed to fear, in some way, was me... Because of my personality. I’m--I'll say this myself pretty much unmanageable in these aspects. Because I'm someone who can’t be bought with money, can't be bought with promises or blackmail... Cause I chose to live a certain life and follow a particular path, also from a faith perspective... When

he realized I wasn't susceptible to blackmail or corruption, he knew he had a problem. And he had to solve that problem somehow. How did the Cardinal solve it? When Monsignor Vallejo leaked the documents to these journalist, he asked-- Monsignor Becciu asked 'Who introduced these journalists to Monsignor Vallejo?'. And it was me. Because that's what I do for a living. Right? I work in communication so I speak to and work with journalists. It’s my job. I had introduced those journalists to him. So I was accused of having introduced them, and for this, guess what? I was

arrested by order of this Cardinal. One second. For those who are listening. How does justice work within the Vatican? What are the procedures? I mean, ok, you’re the source. Even better, you're the reason for the approach. So, how does the process proceed? What's the crime? Leaked information covered by secrecy? Yeah and stealing material covered - by state secrecy. - Exactly. And I mean... stealing is a big word. And, in fact, I was acquitted. - We'll talk about it. - And I mean, I didn't need to steal that material because it was mine. I was the

commissioner. Publication of documents covered by secrecy. I didn't even publish them so... It was a series of mistakes, an incredible series of mistakes. But aside from that, aside from the specific crime... Earlier you asked how justice works in the Vatican. Justice in the Vatican is handled by judicial bodies. The judicial police, which is a real police force that works with Interpol and cooperates with police forces from other countries and obviously, with the Italian police. It has its own court with its own laws, the laws of the Vatican State, including its criminal law. So, I went

there and I got arrested. The commander of - the gendarmerie called me.- You were in Rome I was in Rome, in Italy The commander called me saying 'Franci, come here cause I need to talk to you'. I wasn't worried, I thought it was an everyday thing. At that moment, the commander, super nice person by the way, realized that I hadn't committed any crime. But since in the Vatican, the supreme orders are still administered by the clergy, or by... by the bodies of... by the Secretariat of State or the Holy Father etc... An order was given,

where I couldn't leave the state. At that moment. So you can't leave the Vatican City. So he says, the Carindal says... errr the commander told me I couldn't leave the State. So that evening, I wasn’t under arrest, I just couldn't leave the State. I’m not even sure how to define what it was because there's nothing similar to that in Italy. Casue, for example, in Italy you can't be told you can't leave the police station if you're not under arrest. In the Vatican this is possible. So, the first night goes by. The next day, I was

interrogated again, and basically, without the Holy Father’s knowledge, the Cardinal has me arrested. But that evening, I started feeling unwell. I felt sick. You were pregnant at the time, right? I was but I didn't know it at the time! So I started feeling unwell and because there's no medical facility in the state, no 24/7 specialized care, they took me to a hospital in Italy where I was told I was pregnant. So I found out I was pregnant after 12 years of trying! 12 years of marriage, where I tried to have a child and couldn’t. I

had undergone all sorts of treatments. So that night I found out I was pregnant, but I also found out there was no heartbeat. You can imagine... I mean, it wasn't... It wasn't a pleasant situation. But what did I do? I was in Italy, and I was free. My laywer was Giulia Buongiorno and she said 'Alright, you're free. Stay here and it's over.' Yeah, cause you had left the Vatican. She said go home and I'll call you tomorrow. But at that point, let's go back to the first question you asked about my faith. Faith was more

important than my freedom and even more important than everything that was happening to me. Essentially, I decided to go back to the Vatican. You spontaneously went back to Vatican. I went back to the Vatican, back to my little cell... well, actually it wasn’t really a cell, it was a room in Santa Marta. It wasn’t exactly a prison, let's say... I even had the key to the room. Oh, you had the key? You could open the door... Doesn’t sound very restrictive. I was upstairs, and the Holy Father was downstairs. It was crazy. So, your cell was

upstairs, and the Pope... My room was upstairs, and he was downstairs. - It was a bed and breakfast. - Yeah. I imagine that the Vatican’s prison activity in the last 50 years, - even longer, has been minimal. - Yeah, I was the only woman there, so yeah. But anyway, the next day basically, I was interrogated again. I explained everything all over again. But then, that night, I started feeling sick again, I was like 'It's ok, the baby...' but they decided to take me back to the hospital cause they didn’t want to take responsibility for any

issues. So I went back to the hospital, I spent the night in the ER, it was just crazy. And basically the next morning, they told me again, that there was no heartbeat. By that point, I was so exhausted that I thought 'Alright, screw it, I’m going home, and we’ll figure things out.' But then as I was about to go home, I realized that I was 32 and my life was public. Cause the first news had started coming out... Yeah, how was the public opinion and the press reacting to this scandal? I mean, it had become

a worldwide scandal. Yeah, a worldwide scandal! I was the commissioner of Pope Francis, who had leaked - the secret information. - The Popess. Yeah, the Popess. But ok, in all of this, - what was Paco saying? - Nothing You guys weren't talking? He said he was shocked that I had been arrested and that I didn’t wanna go home anymore. But didn’t he have the power to say, 'Stop fucking with her'? Excuse my French. - 'Let her free'. - No, he didn't. And essentially, even when I was told to go home, it was because that was

what they actually wanted. And when I was told to go home, nothing had come out in the newspapers yet. But I'm a stubborn woman of Calabrian descent and I went back cause I said I'm gonna kick your ass! I get it. So at that point, driven by this understandable feeling of frustration, what did you do? I climbed over the railing of St. Angelo Bridge and said, 'You can go fuck yourselves, I’m outta here.' And then something incredible happened. This random guy stopped. A construction worker on his way to work. He stood next to me and

he started talking, trying to... To convince you not to do it. Yeah. And in the end, he succeeded. And that's the reason why we know each other today. Me and you. It's tied to that event. What do you mean? Yeah, because at some point, that guy said 'ok, you can jump if you want, but first, listen to this song', He was trying to buy some time while he was waiting for the police. He said 'Listen to this song before you die'. And he played among the various songs he had, he played a song by Morgan.

So I listened to this song 'Altrove' and after many years I met Morgan. Morgan was doing X-Factor, - you were there and that's how we met. - True. Can you believe it, Morgan! He actually did something right! Let’s cut this. Well, that song's a piece of art. Anyways, this was just an anecdote. In the end, I didn't kill myself. I didn't kill myself but at that moment, I swore to myself that I would prove the truth. So you went back to the Vatican? Yeah, I went back to the Vatican, pregnant, and for nine months, I

faced the trial. Well, I faced two things. First of all, the biggest... I faced the biggest shitstorm a person can go through. I think my reputation was completely destroyed. Just imagine... But I wonder how? I mean, from an outside perspective, you really looked like someone who tried... I believe the public opinion was leaning towards thinking that you were a person who tried to bring the scandals and mismanagement of Vatican finances to light. You didn't feel like that was how people looked at you? Yeah, at first the press saw me that way. But then, Cardinal Becciu

started a campaign to destroy my image. He made me out to be the lover of the priest. First of all... Which priest? - The secretary of the commission. -Vallejo? Yeah, Vallejo. I mean, it's just crazy to conceive. I have no words... it’s just inconceivable. But this shows how much information can be manipulated. And it shows something else: if you want to attack a woman, just say she's a whore. That's something so... so unacceptable... you don't even know... It's unacceptable if you are "a whore", and - unacceptable if you’re not. - But how did he do

it? - Through press releases or...? - I wish!!! He was much sneakier. He'd throw indirects, hint at things... He'd call a journalist friend of his, and pretty much, if they published the story, he'd arrange a meeting with the Holy Father for their mother. That’s a pretty strong accusation from you! It's not. It's not a strong accusation. It’s the truth. That’s what was done to me. So, they weren't even his own statements! Just.. news that came out through him… Yeah! He'd say, 'You know that Chaouqui slept with the priest?' Get it? And these rumors ended up

in the newspapers? Yeah, they ended up in the papers. - From that source. - Yeah, from that source. And there's more! They added more details. One detail was that I had left a baby doll in a hotel room after a wild night with a priest. I mean... Me?! With a baby doll! The detail serves the narrative. I mean, if I were a 10, I'd put on a baby doll. But can you imagine someone like me—kinda ugly— walking around with a baby doll with a priest!?! But ok, even if it were true, it's irrelevant! Right? I

mean, even if you had slept with the priest—which you didn’t— it still doesn’t change the investigation and the mismanagement of the funds. The thing is, if you manage to destroy the person the information is coming from... You destroy the information too. Second thing, they created this image of "the witch". The witch who blackmails, Who is manipulative, a puppeteer. And something crazy they made up in the Vatican is that I had a cover-up marriage. I mean, a cover-up marriage! It's just ridiculous! I remember-- I remember headlines with a sexual tone. Like 'The Sexy Bomb...' Which fits

perfectly into this whole story. 'A bomb in the Vatican, or rather, - a sexy bomb from across the Tiber - says someone commenting on her artistic nudes published online.' And again, why would they attack you on that? What’s the point? It's all about destroying your image and credibility. What you pointed out is key. The attack on a woman always goes in that direction. You know guys, I'm right-wing. I’ve always been right-wing, except for a brief Renzi phase, which I’m not ashamed of. Yeah, still right-wing. Exactly. Hey Matteo! I’ve always been right-wing, and if just one

feminist had spoken up and said, 'What the fuck are you doing?! You're putting a pregnant woman on trial because she introduced a journalist to a priest?!' Not one! So now, when I see them getting upset about things like femicide, I feel disgust. I feel deeply repulsed. Why? Well, because at that time, going against the Vatican wasn’t easy. And there was nobody, nobody who said 'Why the fuck are you attacking her on sexual grounds? Attack her for what she actually did!' Nobody! This was November 2015. When everything blows up. But how does Vatileaks 1 connect to

Vatileaks 2? Vatileaks 1 is tied to Pope Ratzinger, when the financial scandals from the management that Pope Francis oversees first hit the newspapers. Yeah, the lack of transparency... - And Vatileaks 2... - It's the building in London. No, it's the outcome of the commission’s work. Oh, it's basically just a follow-up. Vatileaks 2 is the response to the transparency request from Vatileaks 1. Exactly. I think this shows that internally, there was a desire to keep a certain type of activity, let's say, hidden. Well, keeping things hidden with Pope Francis is very difficult. I didn’t say Pope

Francis, I said the Vatican. It’s the Curia that Pope Francis is up against, they didn’t like the idea that they weren't gonna handle the press. They didn’t want it handled... differently. And especially, especially by a woman! They really didn't like it. Anyway, I went through the trial and was acquitted. Wait, how does the trial work? It’s a real trial. Just like any other trial. With the different levels of judgment? Yeah, with levels of judgment, a criminal code, rules, criminal procedure... you have your lawyer, there's the defense, and the prosecution... It’s a normal trial Yeah, and

I’ll be honest, I never contested it because it was a trial that followed all the rules. How long did it last? My trial lasted 9 months, one hearing every week. The final hearing... It was on July 7, 2016. I got the verdict with my son in my arms. But here it says you were sentenced to 18 months... No, 10 months. I was acquitted of the charge of leaking confidential documents, but convicted for introducing the journalists to the priest. And what crime is that? Lack of prudence, like a responsible head of the household. Is this a

joke? What kind of crime is that?! They have a different code, obviously. Lack of prudence, like a responsible head of the household. Because I introduced the journalists... That lack of prudence costs 18 to 10 months in prison... 10 months, that’s it. The 18 months were for Monsignor Vallejo... You didn’t serve your sentence, obviously. Not in the Vatican prison or anything. not only did I not serve it, after that, from that moment on, I also started seeking justice for myself and for those who had to face this smear campaign. Honestly, I didn't care about the smear

campaign. Cause I wrote my book, I sold the rights... You took advantage of the situation, let’s say. I started my own agency. You made a bit of a comeback. That's how we say it. Yeah, I did. From thinking I was gonna kill myself to, in the end, helping the Holy Father understand who had really betrayed him. Exactly. In fact, there were convictions following these scandals, right? Correct. The person who wanted me arrested was removed from his position by the Holy Father. He was a Cardinal and his powers were taken away. Who are we talking about?

Becciu, right? Yeah. I love the term—'scardinalated.' Imagine Pope Francis 'I'm gonna "scardinal" you!' No, the Pope... Pope Francis just told him he no longer had his trust. Then, the procedures... Oh, other people take care of it. He just says 'You’re not my friend anymore,' and then the others handle the rest. Exactly, that’s how it went. So, he lost the title of Cardinal... He lost his powers. Does he keep the title for life? Yeah, but not the powers. So he can't join the conclave. Then, he had to face the trial. A brutal trial. It was terrible,

really intense. The Holy See was able to handle a huge trial. There were 12 or 13 defendants, it was an immense workload. The investigations were carried out across 4 or 5 different countries. The trial led to 36 years of combined prison sentences. And Becciu was sentenced to...? - 5 and a half years. - Is he in prison now? No, no. He just received the reasoning for the sentence. If you read it, it's 600 pages long and he’s accused of very serious offenses. The sentence makes it clear that this person's conduct was extremely serious. Give us

some examples. He managed the Vatican money like it was his own? For personal interests? Yeah, and not only that, one of the things he was convicted for was donating 500,000 euros from the Secretariat of State to a woman, Cecilia Marogna, so that she could handle intelligence to free a nun. This woman, instead of freeing the nun, started buying sofas, necklaces, clothes... and the cardinal approved all of this. He gave 500,000 euros to a person who, before being appointed as a Vatican analyst, was selling phones in Sardinia! An impressive career leap. She was trying to save

the nun that was inside her. Anyways, one question I have is, given all this mismanagement... it’s been many years now... Do you think today things in the Vatican have clearly changed? Or... I mean, from the picture you’ve painted, it almost seems like Pope Francis was in charge of a state but had to face opposing forces within the Vatican, right? Has this situation changed, or is there still internal conflict between the Pope and other forces in the Vatican? Is the situation ok now? The situation's changed. Today, the management of finances is completely different. COSEA delivered a

totally new state management plan, and this new plan has been accepted by the Curia. Also because Pope Francis was very clear on this. You don't adapt? You leave. Basically, today the management of money is transparent. The main bodies responsible for financial transparency are working in the Vatican. The guidelines follow global standards, widely accepted by everyone. There's a separation of powers between those who manage the money, those who administer it, those who make the decisions, and those who make the investments. The standard is completely different now. And most importantly: those who make mistakes, face the consequences.

The priests who manage important matters in the Vatican know that, if they ever make mistakes, Pope Francis won’t hesitate to ensure that justice is served directly. Yeah, I mean, the outcome you're describing is almost too good to be true. From my perspective, as someone torn between atheism and agnosticism, I struggle to believe that such deeply rooted and complex mechanisms were truly and completely changed from scratch. I'm sure there was a strong push from Pope Francis... I've also been somehow connected to the Vatican in my life. My father worked there for many years, he met three

Popes... What did your father do? - He worked in the Sistine Chapel. - Amazing! Maybe you even met him, who knows. Leonardo, Leonardo Marra. I should ask him, I’ve never asked. Maybe you did. So, I had a chance to see things. When Francis was elected my dad didn't work there anymore. I mean he met him but then he left. And actually, I think it’s really difficult to talk about the Vatican and its financial management. I obviously take your word for it, but I’m a bit skeptical because I think that, no matter how transparent it might

seem... everything's still entirely managed by a state that interfaces with the rest of the world but, fundamentally, has no real external oversight. There’s no oversight at all. You see? Obviously, from your point of view, a lot has already been done and I can’t prove otherwise. For sure, Pope Francis is trying, some mechanisms have changed, the way money is managed has completely changed. Of course, there's still a lot of work to do on many things. Yeah, of course. It's clear... You gotta understand this... Francesca and I know each other. And I know there are a lot

of things Francesca doesn’t wanna say. So in this episode I'll try to get her to say things she either can’t or doesn’t wanna talk about. Are you down? We can talk about topics related to the Vatican and you can give us your point of view. What people don’t know is that you and I met during the episode we filmed with Pietro Orlandi. We had the chance to discuss the case in person. What people don’t know is that in that episode, we can cut this later, I’ll just say it and we’ll see whether we wanna leave

it or not, in that episode we interviewed Pietro Orlandi, and he mentioned I wasn't there, it was the first episode. Right. I interviewed him. And he mentioned a person who had information regarding the disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi. And off-camera, he told me that person is you. Ok? How do you know Pietro and how did you interact with him regarding Emanuela's disappearance? First of all, Pietro is someone I deeply admire. He’s one of the people with the strongest willpower I’ve ever met. He experienced an immense amount of pain. When he tells me that his mother, who

still lives in the Vatican, super close to where Pope Francis lived, still asks 'Where is your sister?'... that breaks me. That's one of the things that made me wanna try to help Pietro with his search over the years. Right? Unfortunately, Pietro at one point convinced himself that I knew more than what I had publicly said regarding the disappearance and the search of his sister. And why is that? Because Pietro had access to a message exchange that was part of the Vatileaks files, where, pretty much, I was talking to Monsignor Vallejo, the priest from the commission,

and I asked him, 'Tell me how you intend to handle the things related to Orlandi?' Why? Because during the commission's work, five sheets had come out of a safe. They were essentially an expense list, stating that Emanuela... that the Holy See had spent money to handle the case... to handle that situation. These sheets were made public, and Emiliano Fittipaldi wrote a book about this story. The Vatican, though said that the sheets were fake. And these sheets were inside a safe, and Monsignor Vallejo made it look like the safe had been broken into. Cause he needed

to create an alibi for the document leak he had planned. So, he had the safe 'broken into' on purpose, and then, ... and then what did he do? The documents inside that safe were sent back to the Vatican by mail. He had them 'stolen' and had them mailed back. Exactly. And among those documents there were these five sheets. And also, Monsignor Vallejo didn't trust... I mean, he staged a series of events, he put... he put some documents in a box... Ok, there was a box with some documents inside, and it was taken to Santa Maria

Maggiore. I saw that box and it was being taken to Santa Maria Maggiore. Pietro thinks that maybe there could be some information in that box in Santa Maria Maggiore. The Vatican did some research during Vatileaks and found out that the box was no longer at Santa Maria Maggiore. Can I ask you what your opinion is about the disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi? Not so much about what the truth might be, but about the role of the Vatican. Do you think there is full willingness from the Pope and the Vatican to solve the mystery? Or do you

think... I’ll tell you what I think, That there was so much false documentation and so many fake leads mixed together that it’s become big, hot mess. Well, this is exactly what Pietro and I disagree on. Fundamentally... And that's also why there’s this investigative commission and I don’t really wanna go there... Because I feel like the underlying assumption is that the Vatican knows, and we have to unravel something the Vatican already knows. I can't stand this because I know it’s not true. The Vatican— I’ll repeat this, I’ve said it a thousand times— I can't really speak

cause I'm not the spokesperson. But the Vatican doesn’t know where Emanuela Orlandi is. Ok, but what do you mean by the Vatican? The official organs of the state. - Got it. - If the state knew, if the Holy Father knew, if the Secretariat of State knew what happened to Emanuela Orlandi they'd be complicit in a crime. Do you think nobody within the Vatican knows more than what's already been made public? No institutional body. No. Maybe individual people, people who were alive at the time, who came into contact with the story and discovered something they don’t

wanna share. No one can know that. No one can, and I can’t know it either. As for the official bodies, I don’t think so. The thing Pietro and I disagree on is that, for me, the Vatican doesn’t know. For Pietro, the Vatican knows. But what's the harm in asking for more research? What are we looking for? To have confirmation that... A lot's already been done... what’s next? To have the same certainty you have that no official bodies... Let me give you an example, Francesca. When I interviewed Pietro, one thing struck me. It was... impactful to

see a family... completely left alone. It’s undeniable that in the disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi, there were a series of cover-ups. There was a will to bury things, we don’t know by whom. Official bodies, or... someone tried to cover things up. Whether it was the Vatican or the Italian State. This is exactly where I, unfortunately, disagree. Let me ask you a question, something that struck me that Pietro said when I interviewed him. He said he met Pope Francis, and the Pope came up to him and told him that Emanuela was in heaven. It’s hard not to

empathize with a brother who has been looking for his sister for so many years and hear him be told-- not by some random person, but by the Pope-- that she’s dead. It implies that he knows things that even Pietro doesn't know... They've given thousand of explanations for this phrase, mainly that Pope Francis has his own opinion that Emanuela is dead. True. But... Pietro's been given this explanation a thousand times. And about the family that was left alone... Pietro requested that the tomb of the Angel be opened. It’s a tomb in the Teutonic Cemetery where he

thought there might be the remains of his sister... For the first time, they allowed the tomb to be opened. And who was the person who worked to make this happen? Becciu. Yeah, ok. Investigating the Orlandi case is really difficult. But what I’m saying is that... you're 100% sure of what you're saying, but of course, it’s your point of view. Asking for more transparency, requesting more information with a commission, how would that affect the certainty --that you have-- that they have nothing to do with it? It would confirm it! My question is: what problems would a

commission create? None. That's why the commission exists. It’s there. But you don’t agree. Fom your point of view... I just don’t understand. What’s the point? Is it to dig up, to re-interview people over and over again? Nothing... nothing new is being achieved. In this story, there’s no starting point, there’s no lead. The commission isn’t it. If the commission today had the magical power to rewind time and show what happened to Emanuela that day, then it'd make sense. But today, I don’t understand what is that they want to achieve... My feeling, based on what comes out

in the newspapers every time... is that the purpose of the commission is solely to find out what the Vatican is hiding from us. I don't believe it. It's crazy. There’s an ongoing investigation within the Vatican. It was reopened, right? So, again, going back to the family being left alone... the Vatican opened the investigation. What makes them mad, what frustrates Pietro, is that the investigation isn’t going in the direction that he wants. Well, a lot of things happened. Even the Italian parliamentary commission wasn't exactly... open to clearing things up. Right? I remember a chilling speech by

Gasparri. It gave me the shivers. What did he say? He was against the opening of this commission. Ok, the commission spends public money and it gets to nothing. I mean, ideally the goal would be to solve things. The public money... I don’t think there would be an issue with this specific commission. I don't think the state’s coffers are suffering because of this commission. We spend money on many things... So why not spend it on this too, right? I get your point of view, but... Well, I would spend public money to solve an unsolved Italian mystery.

You have this certainty, right? It’s your point of view, I'm not saying it's wrong. But... Pietro obviously sees it differently. I’m sure, and I’d swear on it, that if a Pope... and not just Pope Francis, whom I respect, know, and understand how he works, but any Pope, even a bad one-- if they ever existed-- never, ever, and at any cost —even the worst scandal— could ever be aware of a body being covered up and keep the secret. We’re talking about the Pope, okay? And that's what you believe... It's an unshakeable certainty. The Pope can’t become

complicit in hiding a crime. Now, I wanna know your point of view... I mean, your point of view, everyone has their own opinion. I have mine, Marra has his... what’s your take on the disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi? What's the answer you gave yourself? I have my own view, between what I read out there and what... as you know, as I mentioned... I came to know certain things, my opinion is that Emanuela was definitely kidnapped. She didn’t die because she fell into the Tiber. I believe she was kidnapped, but wasn’t killed immediately after. There was a

period where Emanuela was alive. I’m not sure if during that time she was in London or somewhere else, but she was definitely in the hands of the kidnappers. This period of kidnapping wasn’t handled well and didn’t go as planned. Maybe the Vatican of that time... not the Vatican now... should have made different decisions. They could have made different decisions. They should have had the ability to manage this situation differently, when Emanuela was still alive. I believe this phase went on for a long time. So, in your hypothesis, the phase of blackmail... She was there for

a long time. In your hypothesis of potential blackmail, you believe she was alive for many years. I think for years... Another question—why do you think she was kidnapped? First of all, that year, many girls were kidnapped in Rome. The idea that she was kidnapped, as someone said, with a possible connection to pedophilia, I don’t believe that. Because that's not how they act. Do you think the theory that the Banda della Magliana had invested money in the IOR and wanted to get the money back, and that’s why they kidnapped Emanuela...? Look, I’m going to allow myself

to waive the secrecy. I saw all the documents, I never saw the Banda della Magliana in those documents. Let's bust this myth about the Banda della Magliana investing in the IOR. It’s a huge, massive lie. There’s no evidence of that in any IOR documents. Of course they weren't gonna write it down! No, Federico, sorry but... No shit there's no evidence! It's not like they'd write 'Here, deposit made by the Banda della Magliana'. But you'd find the names! Something! But there are frontmen... Ok, there are frontmen, but in the end, in a bank, you know where

the money goes, right? There are a thousand ways to move money. It's not like Sindona was depositing money just like that! He was doing his tricks... Come on, Francesca! Ok, let's say they never sent that money... The Banda della Magliana never invested money in the IOR. Ok, but it’s clear that there were connections between the Vatican-- the old Vatican-- and the Banda della Magliana. It's obvious the moment a boss of the Banda della Magliana such as Renato De Pedis is buried in the Basilica of St Apollinare next to other Popes. Allow me to question that!

Maybe it just doesn’t show in the IOR documents. The connection between them and the IOR is still to be proven. I’m talking about their relationships. The fact that Renato De Pedis had some kind of connection to the Basilica of St Apollinare is undeniable. Cause otherwise, he wouldn’t have been buried there. But knowing the priest of St Apollinare doesn’t mean that the Banda della Magliana invested money... Of course. I'm just saying... There are a lot of myths around the Vatican, guys! A lot of liars, a lot of crazy people... You can't even imagine... and it's all

bullshit. Huge bullshit. All of it? There are a lot of things I’m passionate about and I’d like to know your opinion on the Calvi case. - The Calvi case. - Yeah, tell us. The Black Friars Bridge. The Black Friars Bridge. Calvi was found hanged under the Black Friars Bridge. And they found stones in his pockets, right? Refresh my memory because I don't remember. Calvi was... help me out... Banco Ambrosiano.. Yeah, Calvi worked at Banco Ambrosiano. Banco Ambrosiano invested in the IOR. Yeah. Sindona... Sindona was involved, right? Yeah, in a way... It's two different things but...

Do you want the version for the public or...? No, I mean, the public probably thinks... the idea one can have is that Calvi-- That we killed him. No, no, I’m not saying that. And who’s “we”? You weren’t even there back then! I don’t know, with the Orlandi case it looks like I'm hiding the body! No! We’re just asking! I'm not talking about you guys! Every now and then you read 'Chaouqui and the Orlandi case.' No, absolutely not!!! We even argued about this. We had some heated discussions because... We really fought about it because when the

messages came out, you were pissed. 'Why won't you tell Pietro the truth!?' Yeah, cause I’ve always said if we wanna be friends... You gotta tell Pietro where his sister is! Cause you know! I think you know things you don’t wanna say. Ok, then, you want me to say that I know where Orlandi is. Are you happy? Oh my God, no! Of course not! This is what drives me crazy. How can I explain that I don’t know where Emanuela is? I know you don't know! If I did know and was hiding it, I’d be complicit in

a crime called concealment of a body. Let me tell you. Personally... I don’t think you know where she is! Thank God! I just think you know things. That's just what I think. That you saw things, and because of a series of mechanisms within this little town called the Vatican, it’s impossible for you to speak up. As you’ve told me many times, you’re bound by Vatican secrecy. Sure, Vatican secrecy, but... The circumstances that led Monsignor Vallejo to exchange those messages with me, that’s what's covered by secrecy! The messages are now public, they’re public. And the reason

we exchanged them had nothing to do with Emanuela. It was about the expenses. And that was your responsibility. Everything about Emanuela, Pietro knows. I was the one who told Pietro Orlandi that he needed assistance. And I introduced him to my lawyer, who later became his lawyer, and now she doesn’t talk to me anymore, I don’t know why. Pietro Orlandi’s lawyer was my friend, she doesn't talk to me anymore. I’d like to clarify one more time that we’re not saying that you know or don’t know where she is. Besides the fact that no one can know....

Exactly, I'm just speculating! Because we know each other, I feel comfortable talking to you... Yeah, "I'm just speculating" but you got mad at me! It was because of those intercepted conversations that came out where you said things... I said this: those five sheets, get rid of them. Cause we didn't know if they were real or fake. And they were fake! Fuck! But yeah, the difference between you and us, is that you have certainties that we or others don’t have. But I mean, do you think it's plausible that the Pope knows where a dead person is

and doesn’t say it? But let me ask you this, can you even conceive that? I can. But I didn’t mention the Pope. You know why? Because I don’t know anything. I don’t know anything. But I can't be sure-- I can’t be sure cause I don’t even believe-- I have no faith that no one knows anything. I'm not even talking about where she is now! It's what you said, back then, things could have been handled better. Okay, but a Pope like John Paul II, who gave his body to the mafia... who went to Sicily... this man

went to Sicily... listen to this. When John Paul II went to Sicily, there were no anti-drones, etc... He gave his body to the mafia and said, 'Believe.' Do you think he... Spoiler alert: It didn’t work anyway. But he tried! Francesca, listen to me for a moment. Just a second, imagine a Pope who becomes complicit in a crime. This is science-fiction! I mean, to me, this is... It's impossible. I can’t... Ok, from your point of view, it's obvious that the Pope-any Pope, even Ratzinger, couldn’t stain themselves with something like this. We're not saying that you, least

of all, but even the Pope, knows for sure where she is or has information on the case. I'm just saying that we, unlike you, can't be sure that they know nothing about it. Period. Correct. And also, let's say, we're not exactly talking about a world where internal scandals have always been exposed and treated with total transparency. Exposing them and handling them are two different things. Ok, let's think about the scandals in all those American dioceses with the cases of pedophilia... We can’t say they didn't try to cover up certain cases. We apologized publicly. I like

it. Consistent, I like it. This is amazing. Oh Francesca... I love this woman. Ok, let's go back for a sec. We were talking about something. I’ll go crazy if I open all these mental tabs. The Calvi case. What do you think happened? It’s interesting to know your point of view. You know this world way better than us. Most people believe that Calvi didn't hang himself. Yeah, a priest took care of him. We have a special team in the Vatican. Special priests who study in secret places, train, and when we need them, they go into action,

eliminate the target, and go right back into the dome. Sweet. It takes 20 to 30 minutes. If you ever need them... Come on, tell us your point of view! Any human institution is susceptible to problems. And that’s undeniable. The fact that Calvi didn’t exactly hang out with the best people... that’s also a fact, there were a whole series of scandals. The Ambrosiano case, etc... The fact that the Vatican played a role in it— Cause there’s this suggestion that Calvi was killed by the Vatican, with Opus Dei involved. As if Opus Dei is made up of

a commander of people who can kill on command. I mean, this is just nonsense! You come from Opus Dei, right? I can't tell you, or I’d have to kill you. Good one! Yeah, this is another great topic... I'd like to talk about Opus Dei. Let's do it... No, not now. Tell me your thoughts, beyond the speculations and accusations, what do you think? I don’t think that Calvi was killed by the Vatican. You think he committed suicide? I don’t think he committed suicide, but I don’t think the Vatican played a role in it either. Do you

think he was killed by someone outside the Vatican? Someone external? I think he was killed by someone external. But I wasn’t there, and I’ve never seen the Calvi case documents. I have no idea what really happened. I don't think he was someone who was murdered. But then again, the IOR at that time wasn't... Ok, the entities of the Holy See aren’t places where, if people get close, they get killed or disappear. This is the common perception, it's what people want to believe. And it's just crazy. It doesn't make sense. Nonsense. Yeah, in the history of

the Vatican, in the recent history of the Vatican, there have been many attempts by people to gain power, especially when it comes to money. So, both internally and externally, people with bad intentions have gotten involved and committed some terrible acts. The mistake is talking about the Vatican as a whole. The point is, as we said before, in the Vatican state, there’s a bit of a lack of oversight. That's why... There was a lack of oversight. You say there was, I say there is. Today, there’s a strong overseer. But, as you pointed out, he doesn't answer

to anyone above, right? Actually, there’s a judicial police office with real balls, alright? Yeah, it's gotten better but... I mean, there was this problem but today there's a judicial police office with real power. And rest reassured, if a crime is committed, they'll make sure someone will pay for it. And those who work for the Vatican know. Yeah, it's improved over the years, but of course, the Vatican of the past, as we said, was completely intoxicated with sinful men. Of course, that’s the story of humanity. The fact that some cases are still a mystery and that

horrible crimes have been attributed to men within Vatican institutions, I think that’s a bit inevitable. Yeah, but getting involved, trying to be open on these issues instead of deflecting them, definitely helps. People don't know that we were sooo close to closing an episode with the Pope! And after this, it'll never happen. After this, it'll never happen but I think it would have been a very smart move for the Vatican in terms of communication. Even just sitting down at a table, not a purely institutional, buttoned-up table, where everything is scripted, and being able to discuss certain

topics and listen to what the Holy Father has to say, whether he likes them or not, even if they don't concern him personally but still fall under the Vatican’s umbrella. I think that could be a big step forward. I completely agree. Pope Francis has put himself on the line a thousand times, sharing himself in unconventional ways. It could be another step forward he could take. Talk to him, write to him! Why don't you tell him? You call him Paco... you tell him! I completely agree with Federico. I also wanna give you a compliment because, even

though you don’t represent the Vatican, you talked to us in a very honest way. Of course, you couldn't share some things that are part of your work and covered by secrecy, but I really appreciate how - you put yourself out there. - Thank you. Federico’s point is complex because the Pope and the Vatican state are somewhat hybrid figures. Cause they obviously have obligations as a state, but at the same time, for believers, they have this sort of sacred aura that prevents them from having a conversation like the one you and I could have. The Holy

Father is both a pastor and head of state. He’s the only religious leader in the world who's also the head of a state. The only one in the world. Exactly! It's really complicated, right? Asking for earthly rules from a man who has a territory and an institution that’s both a political and economic entity... And a heavenly jurisdiction! It’s difficult to connect these worlds. He's a Pope who's always kept his assertions and statements simple, and down to earth. Absolutely. The "queerness" thing— Was it true or was it just fake news? It’s true, it’s true. Can I

ask you a question? Who taught the Pope the term "queerness"? Who do you think taught him? [laughing] It’s not so much about the statement itself, but who... It’s the term!!! Yeah, the term! I mean, The Pope comes from... I think he meant well... Someone must have taught him. Who taught him? Someone young, for sure. Under 30, I think. - Or under 40. - Under 40. Guys, hear me up. The real gay person, the real queer, when they hear something like this, they laugh. They can’t get offended. When the Pope said it, they understood, I think...

you can’t get offended by this word, right? And you can't get offended because he's not talkig about-- It’s not an insult. Pope Francis... Has been the most open Pope in history. It's true. At least in public statements. And homosexuality, in terms of what it is-- two people of the same sex who are in a relationship-- doesn’t mean anything when it comes to their ability to have faith, to come to Christ. Why should your sexual orientation prevent you from having a relationship with faith? - Let me answer that. - Go ahead. Because up to a certain

point, even the Vatican said it. What?! Never. Never. The Vatican can never say that because Jesus welcomes everyone. Yeah, Jesus never spoke of homosexuality. Of course. 2000 years ago, he didn’t exactly get up and instead of giving a sermon said, 'You know what? 'Let’s talk about homosexuality!' Well, actually in the Old Testament, they talk about sodomites. They talk about Sodom, about homosexual relations. It's not like it was never mentioned... It’s a behavior that was stigmatized. Then, with the New Testament... We have to make a distinction between what the Vatican--Let's not even talk about the Vatican

between what the doctrine of faith says, what the Catechism says about sexuality, and what sexual orientation means. Sexuality is the sexual act that we Catholics conceive exclusively in the act of reproduction. Exactly. So, for us, the sexual act, the purpose of the sexual act, is not the pleasure we get from it. I mean, ok... sexual pleasure, Pope Francis at one point explained what sexual pleasure is. He explained that sexual pleasure is a gift. Ok, but I always find it kinda funny when people from the clergy talk about sexuality and sex. Luttazzi once said... That he

hates us. No! Luttazzi said, 'If you don't play the game, why do you wanna set the rules?' Do you get it? The thing that annoys me about the Vatican, as an Italian citizen, is that they wanna get involved in matters that concern other countries. Wait, we get involved in the dynamics of all countries! Yeah! Mind your own business a little. We can't mind our own business. You know why? Because we have to protect what we believe is best for humanity. And for us, that means not aborting, taking care of the children, taking care of your

family... Can I ask you something? We are institutionally centered on minding other people's business. Cause you represent billions of believers. Of course. What I'm asking, though... In fact, let me talk about another myth: the Vatican today's not very concerned about Italy. Not much at all. It’s one of those countries where... Because we no longer matter. It’s not like before, when idk, a cardinal would call to appoint the CEO of RAI. Today, that would never happen. And I mean, if they failed tomorrow, apart from caring for all the workers, the Vatican would get absolutely nothing from

it. Nothing? I disagree, but it's true that Italy is less relevant than it was in the past. The Vatican has zero interest in Italian companies, positions, CEOs, or politics... So, which countries do they care about now? - All of them. - All of them? Yeah, the countries with many Catholics, the countries where they need evangelization... Italy is no longer the center. They don’t wake up in the morning and say, "Let’s see what’s going on in Italy today." I agree. Italy's much less influential today. I can see that. I don't think it's totally irrelevant for many

reasons, including public opinion, and there’s still, as you said before, media communication. But in conclusion, before we wrap this up, I wanted to say something about homosexuality. It's true that in the New Testament, Jesus never talked about homosexuality, but in the Old Testament, there’s a clear distinction between sodomy and relationships that might not be with your partner or spouse, so we're not talking about reproduction... There was a clear distinction. It’s not the same, it’s not like sexual sin is always the same kind of sin. Also, over the course of history, the Popes had never said

what Francis has said about gay couples. Who am I to judge? In fact, many gay couples over the years, or many LGBTQ+ individuals, have asked themselves, “Can I be represented by the Church? - I believe in God...” - Of course! Yeah, but so many Popes had never said "Of course"! Even Ratzinger never gave a positive answer. He was always more... evasive, let’s say. Sexual orientation is just a part of a person. And it's not what makes a good Christian. The gift of a good Christian is faith. Then, if this person... But do you agree with

me that... If a Christian is homosexual, heterosexual, pansexual... whatever, that’s not the core. The core for a Catholic, for a priest, for the Church, is the person. The human being. Of course, but as you told me, if you can only have sex for reproduction reasons, it’s obvious that... That’s one aspect of that person that clearly goes against the teachings of the religion. But that happens all the time! How many things go against...? I’m just talking about the way the Vatican communicates. When a Christian lies, when they slander another Christian, they’re committing a sin. They're stepping

away from the teachings. So, when you step away, when you become the lost sheep, the role of the shepherd isn’t to push that person away but to find them and bring them back. Ok, but if that's what they think, then every homosexual relationship... is a sin. Yeah, if it’s not meant for reproduction, Yeah but they have no options. Even if they wanted to. A relationship outside the family, outside the marital bond, well... the marital bond--this idea is outdated... A relationship outside a life project is something that goes against what... That’s exactly what I’m saying! I

just wanted to say that there's an obvious... For us Catholics, to detach sex from a life project is impossible. That’s why it’s like annihilating any kind of sexuality for a homosexual. Because they can’t have sex with a reproductive purpose. Well, actually, they can, but not with that partner. Anyway, this is... But hey, I’m not asking you YOU. I was just saying what they've been communicating... Sins are committed, you repent, confess, and move on. Ok, what I’m saying is that if I want to make love with my partner to have a baby, if I believe, I

know I’m not committing a sin. - When are you going to have a baby? - I have one! - Another one! - Let's not get carried away! Anyway, let's move on. My point wasn’t about the dogma, it was about communication. Let me give credit to Pope Francis, he actually said, 'Jesus doesn’t judge.' Yeah, but then he said there's too much 'queerness'. So he judged! No, he said there's too much 'queerness' in the Vatican. He wasn’t talking about homosexuality, he was criticizing a certain type of behavior. Yeah, it'd still be a problem even without the homosexual

component, I get it. 'Queerness' wasn't used in its sexual meaning, but more as in... It’s like saying 'too much promiscuity.' No, it's not that... Ok, I don't get it then... You know when someone’s being... super flamboyant? Ohhh! Ok! So, it was about the attitude?! Yeah, the attitude! I mean... Come on! They wear skirts! Super stylish... I wear the quilt myself, Love them. I think the aesthetics of the Vatican and the cardinals and the Pope are amazing! They're flashy too, huh? They got drip! Absolute drip. But that’s more about the outfit, not the attitude. So, what

do you think is the big challenge the Vatican will face in the next decade? Catholicism will face it, really. It'll be appointing priests. I mean, vocations. That’s the challenge. There are fewer and fewer priests? The real problem Catholics face is building generations that are willing to believe and join the Catholic faith. That’s the real challenge. Should we expect a campaign like the "I want you" to recruit soldiers? Well, they already have the Swiss Guard... Let's just say, for the campaign, we’ll gear up. I think it will be, for you guys, a communication challenge. It's about

communication. Well, vocation... Vocation's not a communication challenge. I mean in broader terms. Well, no. Let’s say... the word of God doesn’t play around with this. Faith, it all lies in the family. In the ability that today’s generations, those with young children like me, like you, or like him, have to pass on to these kids the knowledge that life isn’t just about this. Life doesn’t end here, and that there’s something beyond all of this. That there was a man who, 2024 years ago, descended on earth and incarnated, became flesh, Christ, and then died and rose again.

That’s the challenge we face. That’s the... More than losing followers, is it about having priests? If you lose followers, it’s probably because... ...there’s no one to evangelize. I think religion is now perceived as less solid, less rooted in its foundations, and less dogmatic, which is the current direction of the Pope and I think it's good! But I think this allows a more open interpretation of the faith, which weakens the power of the institutions that represent it. And the religions that are growing for various geopolitical, historical reasons, etc., are way more dogmatic and rigid in their

rules. So, opening up to the world —which I believe is a good thing— well, actually, I wish the Vatican State would disappear. And become just a non-economic entity. I know it's impossible. But I wish that Christianity could become a philosophy of life that each individual could interpret in their own way and live by their own principles with their faith, without the need for a dogmatic institution to explain it to them. But this obviously weakens the state. Yeah and it makes stronger and cooler... I don’t know if you know, but there are a lot of influencers

promoting other religions. It’s even becoming cool to observe Ramadan... and I think it’s because it gives you simpler, less interpreted guidelines. You have more rules, so you know... Maybe it's just me. Whad do you think? We are a religion of free will. We're not a religion We're not a religion of impositions and rules. We are a religion of free will, so really, I understand your point. I'll stick to what Pope Ratzinger said at Regensburg. What he said in Regensburg should be the manifesto for the Catholics. I agree with you on this. However, careful because the

Church has always been a precursor of their times. Jesus lived in His time. esus lived His time, okay? And the Catholic Church lives in the present, with the people, the traditions, the culture of the moment. The ability for Christianity to survive for so long is exactly because of this skill. So, opening up doesn’t mean losing its essence, going against... It means adapting the language so that everyone can understand. The challenge for Catholicism today is within the families, the homes. If you don’t send your child to catechism, it’s very difficult for that child to find God

and say, "Let’s see what happens if I go to seminary, learn something and maybe become a priest to share what I've learned!". Faith is a gift. We Catholics believe that in some way, faith chooses us, okay? Loved this answer, thank you. But so, why is there a need for priests? If faith chooses you, you don’t need catechism. Or do you need some kind of push to get to that faith? I mean, if God truly wanted you, you would... We are a project in God’s mind that incarnates. We exist even before our existence, in God’s mind.

This is something I believe in. And when I, as a Catholic, believe, I know that what I’m seeing today, the time I’m given, this is some time that I need. It’s a passage of life, but my real life isn’t this one. It’s the one after. It’s the one that’s waiting for me, the one I’ll live. This, for me, is just a period of transition. And in this period, I build the person I am. I live, I work, I try to be a good person. This is what Jesus came to tell us. He came to tell

us, "Hey, it doesn’t end here!" And today’s challenge, especially with young people... You see this inability of many couples to make important decisions. Young people struggle when it comes to is building a long-term project. First, they need to have a child, then, three houses, then a stable job... then this and that... And maybe the first project isn’t to have, but to be. Right... It’s obviously easier said than done. It’s your point of view. Alright, thank you for being here. Let's thank Francesca Immacolata Chaouqui, also known as "The Popess." We'll take this opportunity to invite Pope

Francis to our podcast. Why don't you Cardinal Becciu, too? Your Eminence! Your Eminence, come and have a serious talk with us. Becciu, there was little diss here today. Francesca Chaouqui is inviting you to talk here at Pulp Podcast. Don't worry, we'll be like Switzerland. Impartial. We didn’t say it in the manifesto, but anyone who was mentioned here has the right to reply. Absolutely. Not just in this episode, but in general. And the right to sue, so Your Eminence, if you wanna sue me, that'd be a change to meet again. We, at t Pulp Podcast, revoke

the right to sue us. Got it? We have to give our approval. Sue our guests, not us. Thank you so much, see you next time! Thank you, Francesca! Bye! (null)