Ep 284 | Helaman 1-6, Come Follow Me 2024 (August 26-September 1)

hey everybody Welcome to talking scripture a podcast where we illustrate relevance and application of the scriptures and come follow me we also dive into the history and cultures of the text thanks for taking the time to share and subscribe to this podcast for show notes head over to our website talk incription welcome to talking scripture I'm Mike and I'm Bryce and today we're going to be in Helman 1-6 Helman there really kind of three parts the first part introduces the secret combinations and the pattern of Pride and some of the things happening in the culture

of the Nephites and Mormon's going to give a lot of commentary he'll give a lot of historical narrative and a lot of commentary to say hey this is why this matters also footnote helan is kind of our day we're going to talk about that and the seventh through the 11th chapter of helan is going to be Nephi's narrative Nephi is going to be a prophet and the Nephites are going to be in a state of sickness and Decay and he's going to stand up and say hey guys we've got a problem and we've got to

fix this and he's going to kind of clear out through the darkness and show the way the 12th chapter is a lot of Mormons commentary where he talks about how unstable man is and then finally the 13th through the 16th chapter of Helman is going to be Samuel the lonite Samuel the lonite is going to come to the Nephites because they're in a state of sin and he's going to stand up and say hey you guys don't have a lot of time he's even going to give them a time period of about six years to

get ready for the sign that Yahweh or Jehovah or Jesus is going to come and be born In the Flesh and so there's really a three-part structure to the book of keilan and we're going to be in the first part the first six chapters in this podcast and so with that brief introduction Bryce what do you see as the most important parts of these six chapters the Brilliance of how the Book of Mormon is set up is that we worship a god of P patterns he is frequently showing us in the past what things will

be like in the future that's kind of his way um if you want to know what things will be like at Adam Andaman well there's already been a meeting at Adam on diam go study that one and it's a pattern of the one to come if you want to know what things will be like in the second coming then there's lots of patterns Egypt is a pattern getting the children of Israel out of Egypt because of all the plagues and everything is like getting the righteous into the Millennium and so there are patterns well the

book of helan is a marvelous pattern of our day when we get into third Nephi you'll see that this the coming of Jesus in The Book of Mormon his first coming is a very very close pattern to his second coming to the world so for example chapter one of third Nephi is a great sign comes and then there's a period of silence and then destruction to the wicked and then Jesus appears they live in peace for many years followed by War so a great sign silence destruction Jesus appears peace War now that's third Nephi but

you might think I was describing the second coming because that's the same pattern that the Lord has declared is the second coming there will be a great sign followed by silence the destruction of the wicked Jesus will come a period of Peace followed by War the Millennium will end in war and so we're going to see that third Nephi begins a pattern of the second coming so if you have eyes to see you would then ask yourself well what book then do we live in because we haven't seen the great sign you know the destruction

isn't here so what book of The Book of Mormon do we live in if third Nephi is a pattern of the second coming may I suggest that helan is a description of our day these are what the days prior to the end look like Helman is the pattern of our day and as you go through the first handful of chapters of Helman it kind of sets that up the very things they deal with and Helman are the very things we're going to deal with in our day so for example chapters 1 and 4 describe the

attacking lamanites and War but this isn't I mean yeah we could probably look at that and say yeah war will be present in our day I I think that's a no-brainer but if we really push it something happens in this war that never happened in Elma the lamanites do something in chapter one of helan and again in chapter 4 of helan that they never accomplished in Elma they get all the way to zarahemla they conquer zarahemla they get all the way to the heart so I think the pattern of our day is that in our

day there will be conflicts in the heart meaning conflicts in our hearts conflicts in our homes conflicts in the very center yes there will be war from now till the second coming that seems to be a pattern but the idea here is look beyond that and realize that the challenge of our day is that there's going to be conflict in the heart conflict between husband and wife conflict between parents and children conflict in the very center of where we congregate and how we live and so the antidote to that problem is extremely intriguing to me

how do we solve conflict and War of the heart well they're going to do that in Helman because not only will The Book of Helman say here's the problem but it will also point out here's the solution so we're going to do that today that's going to be our Focus today how do we overcome conflicts of the heart but then when you go to helalim and 2 another challenge that we'll talk about in our next podcast and Helman 2 is all about secret combinations the forming of secret combinations verse eight the object of secret combinations

is to murder and Rob and gain power and so Mike and I will spend a lot of time in our next podcast talking about modern-day secret combinations whose goal is to murder and Rob and gain power and then what's the antidote how do we overcome because in the book of helan they find success against secret combinations I think that's what's beautiful about the Book of Mormon Bry is it points out the problems but it doesn't just lay out here's the problem it says here's the solution always it always points to the solution so if helin

is a pattern of our day and we recognize similar problems then we should be combing the pages of Helman to find the solutions and so we'll do that what is the solution to secret combinations and then chapter three it begins this notice this pattern in three in verse one there was a little pride in the church and then by the time we jump down to verse 33 there's Pride that's growing and then they're lifted up and then by verse 36 there's exceedingly great pride and so that's a pattern of this is something that's going to

be prevalent in your day this is a problem in the book of Helman overcoming The Pride that comes from Prosperity so Helman 3 will kind of introduce that that they are becoming very prosperous and then when they end the war and start trading with each other their prosperity is going to go through the roof and that's when the pride begins and that's when Mormon will step in and give this entire chapter 12 which is his commentary on overcoming Pride so again that will be next podcast because the answer the solutions will come in in the

later chapters of helment in our day we're going to deal with conflict of the heart Wars of the heart secret combinations and prosperity that leads to great pride now each one of those has an antidote in the book of helan so let's start today we're going to focus on Wars of the heart conflict of the very center of our society our homes our relationships conflicts of the heart so let's go back to chapter one a little brief history starting in verse 14 the lamanites had gathered together an innumerable Army of men and they're just going

to go For Broke they're not going to fight the battles around the outside they're going right to the heart notice who they're led by they're led by this guy Cory aner he's got this jedite name he's a dissenter verse 15 a large and mighty man and so he's going to lead him in and it talks about how he stirs him up they don't really want to go in at first but Cory animer kind of says hey we're going to go in verse 17 he says we're going to go right into the land of zerla the

very center and verse 18 says you know they didn't really keep sufficient guards probably because they have this huge internal strife they're killing the chief judge this is kind of sounds a lot like the war chapters does it a lot like the war chapters as if to say watch this is a pattern that keeps repeating I think Abraham Lincoln said it best when he said a nation divided against itself cannot stand and I think uh Lincoln was quoting Jesus in the gospels right this idea that if we're fighting with ourselves we don't have strength in

fact that's going to be a theme in these chapters there's a chapter in here where it says we have become weak over and over again it's like a light work continually repeated and so it says that they March right into the city in verse 20 and it even uses this phrase that it came to pass that Cory animer did Smite him against the wall their chief judge and they take possession of the city in verse 22 and verse 27 I think is the key where it says the lamanites were not frightened according to his desire

they had come into the center of the land now you got to pause here and see the symbolism what the Lord is saying is if he lmen a pattern of our day evil is coming straight for the heart speedily with all their forces they're coming straight to the heart now we kind of fight evil kind of on the periphery we fight evil you know on the outside we fight bad movies coming into our house and so we have a tendency to say well I'm not going to let that movie come into my house and that's

how I fight evil I think Helman is trying to say but he's coming right into your heart I think there's a pattern here also with the way we approach sin as a culture if you think about the United States culture just in the last say 100 years something that 50 or 70 years ago people would have said that's just offensive that is against the rules of society today if you say hey that's wrong people are going to say well what's wrong with with you and in other words it's Isaiah again where Isaiah says there'll be

a day when they take light and they call it darkness and they call Darkness light and so they're coming right in the center I also I can't help but think about the family the adversary is coming right at families today and so that's a good way to read this so in this chapter they actually do kick out the lonit in chapter one well the lonit were so gungho about getting to the heart that they didn't realize that once they got into Zarah hemler they'd be completely surrounded they were completely surrounded and they didn't have any

place to retreat so the Nephites had them basically in a corner so this time the Nephites were successful at removing them so they came to the heart and the lamanites couldn't go anywhere and the Nephites were successful now that sets up chapter 4 where they're going to do the exact same thing but this time they have a plan and they are prepared and they and they stay in in this chapter Cory animer is killed so the Layon nightes plans are just dashed but you're right Bryce in the fourth chapter it doesn't work out so now

let's jump to four so one we kind of set up this idea that Evil's coming after the heart but we can be successful if we unite all of our other forces and go back and attack the evil that came to our heart but then in chapter 4 the whole thing changes so again verse four of chapter 4 they're again preparing for war verse 5 they did commence the work of death they succeeded in obtaining possession of the land zarahemla and also all the lands even unto the land which was near the land Bountiful now Bountiful

is where the temple is Bountiful seems to be a very sacred place and so now they're coming right to zarahemla and they're approaching right into Bountiful and this time the Nephites can't fight them off and the reason they can't fight them off remember what we talked about in the war chapters about the greatest preparation for war is to prepare your minds to be faithful to God that righteousness is greater than armaments when we do it the Lord's way we get the Lord's help well guess what they've lost that and so verse 11 now this great

loss of the lay the Nephites and the great Slaughter which was among them would not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their abomination which was among them notice verse 8 the denters of the Nephites with the help of a numerous Army of the lamanites had obtained all the possession of the Nephites which was in the land Southward and so it's once again their own infight caused this problem you know reading verse 8 to me made me realize how great of a miracle it was that George Washington did what he did cuz

when he was in New York there were loyalists in New York that were helping the red coats and I thought I could never win that war how is that even possible when your own people are fighting against you the quality of men and women that were in the United States fighting for Independence they had the Lord's help they were doing it the Lord's no way without it no way without it yeah no way verse 12 it was because of their pride the pride of their hearts because of their exceeding riches it was because of their

oppression to the poor withholding their food from the hungry withholding their clothing from the naked and smiting their humble Brethren upon the cheek making a mock of that which was sacred denying the spirit of Prophecy Revelation murdering plundering lying stealing committing adultery rising up in great contentions deserting a way into the land of Nephi among the lamanites verse 13 and because of this their great wickedness and their boastings and their own strength they were left in their own strength there's the principle there if you do it the Lord's way you get the Lord's help if

you do it your way you are left to your own strength I got to tell you Bryce from a personal experience I've experienced both there have been times when I've try to do something and I've been look at verse 26 and verse 24 the word is weak over and over again it says that they have become weak it reminds me of when Joseph was translating and he got in a fight with Emma and he just I he couldn't translate and he just prayed about it and the Lord said go apologize to your wife and he

went and walked in the Orchard and apologized to her and he came back later and and he had the strength of the Lord and I personally can say there have been times when I've just tried to teach a gospel lesson with just the my own personality or My Own Strength but it's not the same as when this the Holy Ghost is there I mean the Holy Ghost is the teacher and so if you go in and the spirit's with you and it's just this marvelous experience and I think missionaries see this all the time and

I think that's a big reason why in the mission field they say hey these rules that you keep will help you to have the spirit and if you have the spirit you know you can be successful and so that word in there that idea of being weak or being left to their own strength in verse 13 I think that everybody in this Mortal experience if we really search into our heart can say you know what I've experienced both there have been times when I've been man I've had this amazing strength and we just give God

the glory and then there's times when we're like that was kind of weak and in this case it's life and death yeah and in this chapter Bryce they're not successful in kicking them out no back in verse 9 moranah who's now Captain son moranah did succeed with his armies and obtaining many parts of the land he regained many cities which had fallen into the hands of the lamanites and it came to pass in the 60 and1st year verse 10 that they succeeded in regaining half they've got half back now this is going to be absolutely

critical to the point I think the Book of Mormon is trying to make moranah with his army and his forces and the swords and everything every weapon they had got half of them back and then they fought for a while Verse 18 moranah could obtain no more and so verse 19 they give up they abandoned their design to obtain the rest of their lands they are content to live on half their land and they let the lamanites have the other half of their land because they cannot get it back verse 20 because of the greatness

of the number of the lamanites the Nephites were in great fear lest they should be overpowered and trotten down and slain and destroyed now I remind you that the lamanites outp powerered them in the last war with Captain Moroni but they had the Lord's help so helan is starting to set this up now this is the power this is the message what moranah cannnot do with the sword watch what happens in chapter 5 the lamanites come in Attack the very heart but the Nephites are weak they are not living the gospel verse 22 they had

altered and Trampled Under their feet the laws of mosiah and a lot of that's in the chapters that we haven't covered but this is where the infection of the gadian robbers kind of infects their culture and one of the things the gatans are teaching is that if I can accumulate more we're back to the Pride cycle if I can accumulate more then I'm better and they want class distinctions and the Nephites in this section of text are going to incorporate those values and they're going to be described by Mormon as the more wicked part and

the lonit are going to say you know we're not doing this and they're going to be described as the more righteous part and so Mormon really kind of showing how the tide of wickedness is sifting over towards the Nephites and the lamanites are becoming more righteous and so that's that's in the chapters like chapter 2 and 3 and four but the answer is like what Bryce says Nephi is going to do something that morona with the sword can't do and notice verse four of chapter 5 who does that remind you of yeah a guy who

gives up the Judgment seat to go preach the gospel reminds us of Elma right and then the light work in verse 6 is there a word that pops up yeah right the word is remember jump down on verse 99 and verse 12 it's just and again you're going to start to see antidotes being presented to the problems that they face so let's quickly go through this story because they're not living the gospel chapter 4: 25 the Lord did cease to preserve them by his miraculous and matchless power so if you live the Lord's way you

get the Lord's help if you don't then you're left to your own strength which they have now seen Their Own Strength is not enough to get their land back now watch what happens in chapter five Nephi and his brother Lehi take it upon themselves to go solve this problem a different way not with swords not with simmers not with weapons of war they go out with the greatest weapon of all so starting in verse 14 they go forth they go to zarahemla now let me remind you who lives in zarahemla it's occupied territory and it's

not just that the lamanites live there who of all the lamanites who lives in zerlin it's the lonite Warriors now typically you would assume that the lonite Warriors are the coldest hardened people that fight to death so zarahemla is filled with lonite Warriors and dissenters from the Nephites verse 17 it came to pass that they did preach with great power in so much that they did confound many of those denters who had gone over from the lame the Nephites now we don't get this story I don't know why I can't wait to get this story

we're going to get another story but the end result of this story is verse 19 so what moranah couldn't do with the sword Nephi goes in there with faith and power and Holy Ghost and scriptures and eight, lamanites who were in the land of zarahemla and round about were baptized unto repentance now those were lonite warriors now do you see what the Lord's trying to say for our day now let's get to the story he does want to tell he doesn't tell us the fullness of that story we don't get any of the details on

how he converted 8,000 but we do get this very very symbolic story so in verse 20 he goes from zarahemla down to the land of the Nephites where the bulk of the lamanites live now this is the land of the lamanites this is where their wives their children this is where the government this is where the bulk of the lonit live and they take him and they throw him in prison just what lamanites typically do when Nephites come in it's the same prison that Ammon and his Brethren were cast into so now they're in prison

and the bad guys come in to slay them verse 22 they come into the prison that they might slay them and Nephi and Lehi are encircled about by a fire now you almost have to see this there's some beautiful paintings of this Nephi and Lehi are surrounded by light the prophet is surrounded and protected by light and when they saw that their hearts did take courage simultaneously verse 28 what's going on to the people who sought their lives that sought harm the people who sought to destroy the prophet verse 28 they were overshadowed by a

cloud of darkness and an awful solemn fear Came Upon them now if this is a pattern of our day may I suggest that we live in a society where there is light and darkness that there are those who are encircled about by light and then there are those who are overshadowed with a cloud of darkness and those moments in all of our Lives when we are overshadowed with a cloud of Darkness results in awful solemn fear so a voice comes and they don't really understand the voice but then in one of the most symbolic moments

in the Book of Mormon one of my absolute favorite gems of the Book of Mormon is verse 36 standing there in a cloud of Darkness filled with awful s fear something came through the darkness something shined through the darkness Helman chapter 5 verse 36 is such a symbolic verse it is my witness that no matter what happens in the latter days no matter how much of a Darkness May gather above us no matter how much awful solemn fear may fill our hearts the face of the Prophet will always shine through the darkness you will always

see that glimmer of light and hope and as soon as they do that they ask a question verse 40 it's a question that we hope everyone in the world today asks everyone who is in the shadow of Darkness asks what shall we do that this cloud of Darkness may be may be removed from overshadowing us and the answer is the same answer that's been given from the beginning of time verse 41 you must repent you must repent and cry unto the voice even until you have faith in Christ notice you don't have faith and then

cry unto God you cry unto God until you have it crying unto God will strengthen your faith you must repent and cry unto the voice even until you have faith verse 41 when you shall do this the darkness shall be removed now they do it to their credit they repent they begin to cry unto the voice now this is beautiful symbolism verse 46 The Cloud of Darkness was dispersed as soon as they repented The Cloud of Darkness was dispersed and then they were within the circle of fire they had been engulfed they had been brought

in to the circle whenever an awful solemn fear rests upon you look to the prophet look to the gospel live that way the gospel always has the answer to every situation you're in and if you live it that way the darkness disperses and you are brought into the light and then verse 44 they were filled with that Joy which is unspeakable and full of Glory verse 45 the Holy Ghost did come down from heaven and did enter into their hearts this is beautiful symbolism for our day see the face of the prophet he represents the

gospel and everything that God has asked us to do and if you will repent the darkness is dispersed you are pulled into the light Joy fills your heart and then the Holy Ghost and by the way they get what they want so Mormon's commentary here is he says well the whole point of this was their land was taken they half their land is gone and so if you go to verse 50 it says they did go forth and Minister unto the people declaring throughout all the regions round about all the things which they had heard

and seen and the lamanites were convinced of them because of the greatness of the evidences which they had received and as as many as were convinced did lay down their weapons of war and then verse 52 they did yield up the Nephites the lands of their possession what they couldn't get with the sword they got with the word of God there's a lot of application here isn't there Bryce I me so much for our day a lot of people listening to this podcast are married and maybe you've had times where you've been at war with

your spouse or you've been at war with your children or maybe in today's especially if you live in North America there's a lot of fraction happening culturally and and parents and children fighting or siblings fighting and so what is an application that you see here Bryce when we're we're surrounded with War what is the message of this chapter When The War comes to your heart the answer is always the Gospel of Jesus Christ the answer is always to see the gospel shining through the darkness so in those moments where you're kind of at war with

your spouse what does the gospel teach I think instantly about the nine principles in the proclamation successful families are built upon these nine principles and the first two are tied together and tie us to God it's faith and prayer you've got to get God in your relationship but notice the next two it's repentance and forgiveness so what would the gospel have you do in those moments where maybe you're at war with your spouse the thought comes to me maybe I don't wait for my spouse to say sorry but I say sorry I take my weapons

of war and I bury them first and there it is the gospel is always the answer you lay down your weapons of war you lay down the weapons of your rebellion and you seek peace and you do what Jesus taught and you be the one that solves it you be the one that fixes the problem it's interesting to me too that this whole their land was taken half their land and yet there were only 300 people in that prison that went and shared and so another message I see here Bryce is that the message of

one person can have Rippling effects just as 300 people but they were people of prominence I think that even like once again we're back to names I'm going to geek out here really quick on aadab he's the guy in chapter 5 who stands up and says oh you want to know who this Lehi and Nephi character are well verse 39 he says uh they're conversing with the angels of God you guys and then notice what happens the lamanites are like well what are we supposed to do and a menad ab's like well I'll tell you

verse 41 you've got to repent and you've got to it seems as if aminadab knows the gospel and I think in here Bryce remind me isn't he one of those de centers yeah trying to remember what verse is that in remember they're they're down among the lamanites verse 35 there was one among them who was a nephite by birth there we go who had once belonged to the Church of God but had dissented from them so this aminadab is a dissenter now if a men's name has Hebrew Roots which I think it does and you've

got am Which is my people and the DAV which is generous or giving it's almost like a royal name like my people are generous why would that be in there why wouldn't Mormon just say there was this guy but he gives you his name I think it's because aminadab came from people that were once generous that were once a beautiful people I mean how many times does Mormon do this later where he's like my people were delightsome they were beautiful they were blessed they were nadav they were generous but he kind of fell off the

path this comment is by John Butler and he he writes this he says it's striking that aminadab is also the name of boaz's great-grandfather and ancestor of the judahite Kings aminadab is a perfect name for a nephite estrange from his father's Faith who resumes a Priestly role in a moment of Crisis if the Nephites know the kings of Judah as men who have once been mezic priests but have fallen away otherwise the name just doesn't seem very noteworthy the description of his background emphasizes both aminadab nephite birth and his former membership in the church presumably

whoever combed hel and 5 in the form in which we have it saw the name aminadab in his record recognized it as a judahite royal name and made sure to include it in the record noting aminadab birth and his personal apostasy to emphasize the implied parallel now I think that's important I think also when someone has truth spoken to them and they descent it's still in there the seeds of goodness are still in there and think about this if aadab doesn't play that role I don't think the story plays out the way it plays out

and it's fascinating that the word remember comes up so much in chapter 5 you've got to remember amminadab the goodness of your people you've got to remember we've got to remember God in our life because you've walked away and sometimes you don't have to do too much preaching just be you if it's a child who's estranged you just be that loving mom or dad and that will bring out their remembrance there's another thing happening here and it's this idea of darkness and shaking and a voice and two witnesses and this message from heaven and if

you want to have a really neat experience with heilman 5 just crack open Revelation 11 and in Revelation 11 there's some of this happening so this is a last days parallel John is measuring the temple in the first couple of verses and this has to do with measurements of Sacred Space but it also has to do with time in verse two it talks about 40 and2 months which is 3 and 1/2 years of this wickedness and then notice there's these two witnesses verse four two olive trees and fires coming out of their mouth I don't

take this literal I take this as the words of God and they have power to shut heaven now we're going to see that in the next podcast we're going to see the idea of famine as a way of God trying to bring us back to him and their testimony is bringing people to God and so Revelation 11 is really interesting because we have the Earth Earth shaking we have a voice from heaven we have Darkness all of this stuff happening in Helman 5 and it's as if it's another witness to this idea that God's going

to send multiple Witnesses in matters of life and death salvation is tight in Witnesses Deuteronomy 1915 Deuteronomy 176 numbers 3530 in matters of life and death you've got to have two witnesses and these guys are witnesses and so anyway that's another way to look at this text is it's a type of God bringing people home and I can't help but read it also and think the Lord sends out Missionaries 2 by two I see that is also kind of embedded in Helman 5 so now watch what happens I'm going to jump to the end of

chapter 6 so we've got something happening Among the Nephites and something happening among the lamanites simultaneously and I love the description here now after what Nephi and Lehi have done go to the very end of chapter 6 and watch this progression let's start with the Nephites because I think we could make the tie to our day starting in verse 34 the Nephites began to dwindle in unbelief they began to question that word dwindle is is intriguing to me now if you dwindle in unbelief notice what happens next they grow in wickedness and then jump down

to verse 35 the spirit of the Lord began to withdraw now if you lose the Holy Ghost notice verse 38 it came to pass that on the other hand the Nephites did build them up so we're talking about gadan and robbers the Nephites did build them up and support them and end of verse 38 they did partake of their spoils and did join with them now the gadianton robbers are very similar to the world today if you begin to question if you begin to dwindle in unbelief doubt you let your doubts into your heart and

you don't humbly do what the ne the lonit are doing if you dwindle in un belief it often leads to growing in wickedness which leads to the loss of the Holy Ghost and now you're building up supporting partaking and joining the the people of the world now contrast that with the lamanites in these very same verses notice in verse 36 the Lord did pour out his Spirit among the lamanites because of their easiness and willingness to believe in his words there's where it starts an easiness and a willingness to believe in the Lord's words if

you are willing to believe jump back to verse 34 notice that the lamanites began to grow exceedingly in the knowledge of their God if you are willing to be taught by God if you want to if you make it easy for God to teach you then you will grow exceedingly in the knowledge of God and then back to verse 36 the spirit will be poured out upon you now notice what they do to the gadian and robbers in verse 37 instead of supporting them like the Nephites and joining them what do the lamanites do to

the gadian and robbers they hunt them down they hunt them down and preach the word of God among them in so much that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the lamanites there might be like a a puning going on with hunting them down they're either physically coming after them or they're hunting them down to preach I see Mormon doing lots of punning in these chapters by the way Gad Anon is a pun those of you that love the 12 tribes of Israel gad's one of the tribes and Gad means to be blessed

or fortunate but it also means troop and so you kind of take that word for Gadi antin and you get a bunch of different meanings you get this reduplication here if you take the word gude and you add an em to it you get Bandits or troops or a good fortune or troops in the sense of Distributing Lo or Bounty and so even the name Gadi antin kind of has embedded in it this idea of getting booty or a band of robbers ish gudim is is the band of robbers or band of guys that are

taking stuff and so there's a lot of punning going on here obviously is lost to us as English readers and we don't have the plate text if we had the plate text we could say okay this is a Sumerian rout or this is Hebrew or whatever but even Kish kumin has some cool stuff in it so Kish kumin is this bad guy and the the names can be good or bad but kumin the part of the Kish kumin part the kumin part even is where we get that spice it was preserved and the the word

even in the Greek and in the Hebrew is this idea of preserving or hiding and so what is Kish kumin doing he's preserving or hiding and he's associating with the gudim or the Gad anons and they a troop of guys hiding out in the wilderness doing stuff so anyway there's some punning going on here and I even see that in verse 37 that Bryce just read that they hunted him down but then they preach to them and we don't really think that way but even there's that verse in Jeremiah right where they're going to hunt

him out and fish him out of the holes of the rocks and so anyway Mormon is a pun master and I I like to say that the scriptures are full of dad jokes and so verse 37 is a great dad joke that's just my little geek out moment there now chapter six sets up for next week where because the war ends because they're no longer physical enemies and they don't necessarily sleep with one eye open and a sword underneath their bed the Layman aren't going to attack them anymore now they can trade with them and

because they can now trade with them man they're going to get rich so verse 9 they became exceedingly Rich they had exceedingly plenty all manner of precious metals verse 12 of chapter 6 they did raage grain in abundance they did flourish exceedingly they did multiply and wax exceedingly strong they did raise many flocks verse 13 fine twine linen and cloth and then verse 17 the Lord had blessed them them so long with the riches of the world that they had not been stirred up to anger or Wars or Bloodshed therefore they began to set their

hearts upon their riches couple thoughts go to the second chapter so while the Kish kumin people and the gadian band they're putting together their signs verse 11 when gadian found that kishkumen did not return because kishkumen goes to kill hman and and he can't do it and he gets killed uh Kish dies in verse 9 of Helman 2 and so gadian is waiting and he's waiting and kishkumen doesn't show up and it says he feared less he should be destroyed therefore he caused that his band should follow him and they took their flight out of

the land by a secret way into the Wilderness and thus when Helman sent forth to take them they could nowh be found and then Mormon writes and more of this gadian shall be spoken Hereafter and thus ended the 40 and2nd year of the reign of the judges and behold Mormon says in the end of this book you shall see that this gatan did prove the overthrow yay almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi now I do not mean the end of the book of helan but I mean the end of the book of

Nephi now what he's talking about is the plates the large plates but which I have taken all the account from which I've written and so Mormon is kind of foreshadowing here he's like hey these gatans are going to be a big deal it's a clan it's a guild it's a group of people these troops and they're seeking power and this is just just the beginning they're going to end up overthrowing this whole system of people that believe in Yahweh we're going to see this pop up again in Mormon 2 and three where the Gans just

infest the land and the people that are good they leave they move out and so go to chapter three chapter three is all this stuff that you know in this podcast Bryce and I don't we're not going to force you or be dogmatic about some of these historical things and so we'll put this in show notes I'm going to put the main two models of where we think this happened the Heartland model and the Mesoamerican model and I think Bryce and I in a couple of our podcasts have mentioned you know we don't necessarily agree

I'm more of a Mesoamerican guy and I'm much more of a Heartland guy I think the Book of Mormon occurred in the promised land of the United States of America and I'm you know I'm leaning towards meso America now I don't care I to me I really think that one day we'll know one day we will know all these answers and the reality is it doesn't matter where it occurred what matters is that what was written was written to change our lives yeah absolutely but the Book of Mormon happened somewhere and so there's a bunch

of stuff in these chapters that has to do with physical locations and so what I want to do is just briefly talk about it without alienating half our listening audience like if you're a Heartland person I don't want you to walk out of here and be like well I'm not going to listen to Mike because he's an idiot he's talking about meso America but if you're a Mesoamerican person I also don't want to alienate you or make you think you have the superior view of the Book of Mormon so all that being said notice what

happens the people leave there's so many of what I call the good guys of the neite culture that go northward and the verse I really want you to take note of is verse 11 and 12 it says they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build cities both of wood and cement and it came to pass there were many of the people of Ammon who were lamanites by birth and they did go out of this land the anti- Nephi Lehi the people that were lamanites that Ammon had converted these good people

they leave and they just take off now this is a foreshadowing of Mormon 2 if you go there look at this in Mormon 2 it's about 350 ad so we're like way in the future but this is Mormon's day and it says my heart this is Mormon 2: 27 uh my heart did sorrow because of the great Calamity of my people because of their wickedness and their Abominations but behold we did go forth against the lamanites and the robbers of gadianton so in the helan narrative the Ganan robbers are taking root amongst the nephite culture

but in Mormon's day they've taken root in the lonite culture but he sees them in both but in his day it's more among the lamanites and it says until we had again taken possession of lands of our inheritance and the 340 and9th year passed away and we made a treaty with the lamanites and the robbers of gadianton in which we did get the lands of our inheritance divided and the lamanites did get give unto us the land northward yay even to the narrow passage which led to the land Southward and we to give the lamanites

all the land Southward I call that the 350 ad treaty that treaty is how they're able to maintain peace and over and over again we read that the Nephites are going north they just keep leaving and leaving and I think embedded in this of helan and in Mormon 2 is this idea of what do you do if you're in a place and it's just getting too toxic what do you do and there's not one right answer no no it's like sometimes you leave but sometimes you stay I'm grateful that MDC stayed in Salem because he

made a difference sometimes you need to stay and you need to make a difference among the culture because how many times has the Lord said it's because of the righteous that I'm preserving this Society if the righteous leaves then what hope do we have but sometimes it's so toxic that you just I'm taking my family and I'm leaving two weeks ago where we talked about when is conflict Justified and the idea there was if you live the Lord's way if you abide by the Lord's rules then you get the Lord's help and he prospers us

according to our circumstances in other words the Lord will help you know when to stay and the Lord will help you know when to flee and when do we go north because there's there's peace and prosperity up there and when do we stay there was a time when we told everyone that joined the church go to the center of the church go to Nauvoo go to Kirtland Ohio and even for a while it was go to Salt Lake City but now we say no don't go don't go to where the church is stay and build

up the church and make it strong where you are so there is a time to gather with the righteous and there is a time to stay as this message comes up I think that's important to talk about that you need to do what is best for your family circumstances sometimes it gets so bad that you need to leave you pull your kid out of school because the environment is just toxic or sometimes you teach your child how to make an influence in the school and if you do it the Lord's way you will get the

Lord's help and he will prosper you according to your circumstances so good I I have a friend who his son got involved in drugs and he literally said to me I'm willing to move my family I'll move Heaven and Earth to save my son and I thought that's a father who's really dedicated to his son and his success and I I think in this case I think there's some of that happening the anti Nephi leites they see this Gadi anism rising up and they're like we're out of here and I think Bryce there's so much

that could be said about Helman 312 and it's just like one verse and then in the next verse Mormon says oh by the way there's a ton of Records I'm not even touching and then verse 14 a 100th part I'm not even telling you and so in other words Mormon has all this stuff and he's like oh there's there's so much but I just I'm I'm trying to stick to my message that's one of the things he's saying is these guys leave and I really do think it's because they see it just gets too toxic

for them now that being said I want to geek out just on this for a moment go to the fourth chapter when they're talking about taking possession of their lands back in helan are you still in Mormon yeah we're in Helman 4 so it talks about in verse five that they succeeded in obtaining possession of the land of zerla and then it talks about in verse six that Nephites and the armies of morona were driven even to the land of Bountiful and then it says this there they did fortify against the lamanites from the West

sea even to the east it being a day Journey for a nephite on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their North Country there seems to be in the Book of Mormon this this specific location that was defensible that separating the land of the lamanites from the land of the Nephites there was this sometimes they'll call it a pass sometimes they'll call it the line of fortification but it was a way for them to control the Layon nightes and kind of keep them in their space so the Nephites had their

space and there's a lot of ink spilled on this look at Elma 22:32 it was only the distance of a day and a half's journey for a neight on the line Bountiful and the line desolation from the East to the West sea and thus the land of Nephi and the land of zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land Southward and it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful even from the East unto the West sea and thus the Nephites

in their wisdom with their guards and their armies hemmed in the lamanites on the south that thereby they should have no more possession on the North that they might not overrun the land northward therefore the lamanites could have no more possession only in the land of Nephi and the Wilderness roundabout and so the lamanites are in the Land South the Nephites are in the land north and there seems to be this bottleneck or this choke point where they were able to defend themselves now what does this have to do with anything like I said there's

lots of models that you can read on possible locations but I found this very interesting commentary by Joseph Allen where he said what if this whole description in here is put in Mormon to teach a spiritual message and you might ask yourself what does geography have to do with with a spiritual message here's what Joseph Allen says does it seem like Mormon would interrupt this message this spiritual message in Alma 22 to talk about geography if it were not for the purpose of driving home the message of repentance and the Redemption of Christ in the

context of Mormon's writing we understand that the land of Nephi which was taken over by the lamanites represented evil and that the land of Zer hemla the new promised land to the 200 BC Nephites represented good when the two NE fite colonies of limhi and Elma returned to zerla they were received by King mosiah with open arms these events May Be liken unto us when we return repentant to God who will receive us with open arms but our desire is to go to the land Bountiful which represents Paradise or eternal life as opposed to going

to the land of desolation which represents death and hell you will notice that even the animals left the land northward the land of desolation to get food that was available in the land Southward the land of Bountiful both both zerem and Nephi and bountiful and desolation are separated by quote that which is narrow that is Nephi was separated from zarela by a narrow strip of wilderness and banul was separated from desolation by a narrow neck of land this analysis is reminiscent of the scripture where we are told that whosoever will lay their hand upon the

word of God which is quick and Powerful which shall divide asunder all the cunning and the snares and the Ws of the Devil May lead the man of Christ in a straight and narrow course across that Everlasting Gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked Helman 3:29 just think about that for a minute we have two groups of people and they're separated by this narrow pass a narrow neck a narrow passage a fortification of a line and the way you cross over and enter into the nephite society is you make those covenants that

make you a nephite the lamanites are wholly allowed to come in their culture but they have to subscribe to the things that the Nephites do they have to believe in Jehovah they have to repent they have to be part of this what we call the egalitarian ideal where everybody has access to the things that they have and there's not this class distinctions and those kinds of things and the gatans want to wreck that and so I really like Joseph Allen's commentary regardless of whatever model that you have as readers of the Book of Mormon we

just don't have a lock down exact where this took place whatever it ends up being I'm fine with but I think to Mormon he lived in the real world and so he's putting some of this stuff in here and part of me this is just me but part of me thinks maybe the reason we don't know is because it would negate faith if we had this lock down and we had all of this stuff figured out it would kind of intellectually compel us to believe and some of the commentary in there about the good guys

leaving I think this is setting us up for this idea of what it means to be ripe because notice what Mormon says he says they're dwindling and they begin to get ripe and in the Book of Mormon Bryce don't you think that ripe when they're ripe it's when over half when the majority of the people are choosing wickedness they're ripe kind of goes back to what mosiah said when they went from a king to a more democratic form of government if the time shall come when the majority are wicked then are they ripe for Destruction

and there's a message for us there and I would just suggest you Ponder this week that the answer answer is always the gospel may I suggest that if you are financially struggling that you consider the gospel's solutions there are many solutions in the gospel that seem counterproductive that the world would disagree with how in the world is that paying your tithing doesn't seem to make sense to people but it it's a financial strategy the answer is always the Lord's solution when you are trying to do it moriah's way with The Sword and you're not succeeding

would you remember this lesson would you see the face of the Prophet shining through the darkness and would you live the Lord's way and repent and cry unto the voice and be filled with the Holy Ghost and then it's so much easier to succeed at the very things we couldn't succeed at on our own isn't that the definition of grace that we have power to do what we couldn't do if left to ourselves I love this portion of the Book of Mormon because it is an antidote for our day so yeah that that's a really

good message I really like this idea we've really set up what's going to happen in the next few chapters in Helman where we talk more about pride and how the secret combinations play out and what Nephi's role is in this and then how Samuel comes and says man you guys knock it off and so that's going to be the next couple of podcasts in Helman and and with that we thank you for listening and have a great [Music] week talking scripture is not an official production of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the

opinions expressed in this podcast are Mike and Bryce's opinions only we refer you to official Church sources and the church website to clarify any doctrinal questions