How Can Mary or Saints Hear Prayers If They Aren't Omniscient or Omnipresent?

okay brother i i invited someone to call me on skype someone that thinks he knows the scriptures and was pontificating because he thinks he knows more about the nature of god than the early church see so we're going to see how well he does now jonathan you were chiming in thinking that you know god as much as you think you do when you don't that somehow if mary hears she has to be omnipresent and that's an attribute of deity now before i show you you don't know the bible as well as you think these men that were sighted these were the heirs of the apostles and they knew the scriptures better than you and they could recite in their sleep are you telling me they didn't know that omnipresence is an attribute of deity and yet they still had no problem with mary being able to pray for them so did you know more about god than they did no i'm not saying i knew more about god than they did i was just asking a question no you weren't you were criticizing asking questions different so if you're sincerely asking you're going to get your answer now let's see because if someone's sincerely asking i don't have problems answering because i too was a staunch protestant and i thought intercession of the saints was idolatry and i thought invoking mary was idolatry and i didn't change because i wanted catholics to like me i didn't change because i wanted orthodox like me i changed because of what the bible teaches how the lord jesus preserves his church and what these men and women who are the heirs of the apostles and their successors believe men that god used to preserve the church and die as martyrs for it and he mentioned many of them but i want you to go to revelation chapter 5 for me open up revelation 5. now let's see if you're asking sincerely because i'll know by the way you're going to respond in revelation chapter 5 i want you to read verses 8 um to 12 for starters okay do you want me to read it out loud yeah you have to because people uh need to hear what you're reading eight through what to 12 for starters okay now when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb each having a harp and golden bulls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints and they sang a new song saying you are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals for you were slain and you have redeemed us to god by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our god and we shall reign on the earth now pause real quickly before we move on i'll get back to verse 8 in a minute you see that the lord jesus redeem people from all languages right tongues means languages not some languages right right now only an omniscient god can understand all languages correct right john is a creature he can't understand all languages right right okay good now keep reading okay then i looked and i heard the voice of many angels around the throne the living creatures and the elders and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands saying with a loud voice worthy is the lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing now remember what you said you were said john is a creature and he cannot know all languages because he's not omniscient only god being on mission can know all languages right right okay and john is not omnipresent right right now your answer is going to tell me if you're sincerely looking for answers or you're here just to debate read now 13 slowly and every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and as such as are in the sea and all that are in them i heard saying blessing and honor and glory and power be to him who sits on the throne and to the lamb forever and ever now you just said john is not a mission he's not omnipresent right right but you just read he's heard he heard every creature everywhere on earth who speak different languages in heaven beneath the earth that sees all things in them how did he hear all of them and know what they were all saying i assumed the lord gave him that revelation and that was you just refuted yourself good so why can't the lord make known to those in heaven there are people asking for your intercession if you're consistent why do you assume mary has to be omnipresent no all mary needs is an omnipresent god to make known to her pray because they're seeking intercession just like john now don't give me a different answer that's inconsistent because i'm going to block you no you're you're right that makes sense okay good i like that okay good now you're being sincere now i can see now read revelation 5 verse 8 for me five verse eight yesterday okay now when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the lamb each having a harp and golden bowls full of infants which are the prayers of the saints and they sang a new song saying now let me ask a question verse say what are these four living creatures 24 elders doing with the prayers of the saints why are those prayers in their hands i don't know okay now go to revelation 8 revelation 8 read for me we're going to read two to five but pay attention of three to five read two to five uh okay chapter eight two to five yes and i saw the seven angels who stand before god and to them were given seven trumpets then another angel having a golden censer came and stood at the altar he was given much incense that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints before you move on can you explain to me what this angelic priest is doing not only offering incense on the altar but he's taking the prayers of the saints and offering to god what what is he doing with the prayers of saints why has god put him in charge of carrying the prayers of saints to god that's how god ordained it that's his order i suppose so then what would be the problem with spirit beings spirit creatures or believers in the presence of god being authorized by god enabled by god to then carry your request to him there's nothing wrong with it amen all right now finish it go all the way to fight because i got more for you okay uh he was given much incense that he should offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne and the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints ascended before god from the angel's hand then the angel took the censer filled it with fire from the altar and threw it to the earth okay and there were no kids out there yeah you can stop there all the way fight brother you can say because six now sound about the judgment of fall on the earth tribulation god is answering the prayers of the saints who are martyred but i want you to go to revelation 6 verses 9 to 11 which ties in with this and i'm going to give you more more than one verse because i've done a series on this but for your benefit because you're saying you're asking sincerely so i'm going to answer in the spirit of love because you're not here just to debate uh revelation 6 verses 9 to 11. all right first okay uh verses 9 to 11 when he opened the fifth seal i saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of god and for the testimony which they held and they cried with a loud voice saying how long o lord holy and true until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth then a white robe was given to each of them and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who will be killed as they were was completed okay let me ask you a question these are holy martyrs who are now alive in the presence of jesus christ then the reason why they're before the altar notice they don't have physical bodies they're they're as souls and yet they're before the altar meaning that their deaths were accepted by god as a sacrifice for his glory did you notice that the lord said to them i will avenge you at the right time because there's a number of christians who like you will be martyred when that number is up then i will avenge your blood now doesn't this prove that the lord can make known and reveal to those in heaven what's taking place on earth and what will take place on earth that's correct because he just told them right so that means now they're aware oh more christians are going to die and there's a number and once that number reaches then our lord will come down yeah now let me ask you a second question since they prayed to the lord lord avenge our blood do you think after being told by the lord that they have brothers and sisters in christ will be martyred they won't be praying for them that the lord preserved them as he preserved these martyrs when they're on earth saying that one act of love that christians are commanded to engage in is to pray for one another yeah okay so we got that now go to revelation 19.

and i'm gonna get out of revelation because people when they don't want to accept what the bible teaches they'll say oh revelation is apocalyptic it's symbolism you can't okay we'll put that aside even though those same people will run to revelation to prove the trinity the deity of christ and other things a thousand year reign of christ but that's okay because i want to show you other passages and william sorry that i don't mean to take no brother brother this is fantastic you're right in revelation 19 before you read it in revelation 18 babylon the great is destroyed in an hour god has destroyed babylon that's revelation 18 and the nations mourn at the destruction of babylon because god has now brought judgment on babylon he's destroyed it and the nations are like mourning and in shock now read the reaction of those in heaven revelation 19 verse 1 start with one okay after these things i heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven saying alleluia salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the lord our god for true and righteous are his judgments because he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication and he has revenged on her the blood of his servants shed by her let me ask you a question no you wanted to it's okay how did those in heaven knew about the destruction of babylon on earth if those in heaven are not made aware of what's taking place on earth god made them aware okay so here you have biblical proof that those in heaven can be made aware by god what's taking place on earth because those in heaven rejoice at babylon being destroyed on earth which means they must have seen it because god allowed them to see it right yeah okay now go to matthew 18 verse 10. matthew 18 verse 10. now i'm going to give you the context of matthew 18 verse verse 10.

before you read just read only 10 don't go to 11 but before you do verses 1 to 9 it's talking about little children and the lord jesus is warning people do not harm little children physical children because they're innocent and god loves them and the kingdom belongs to them as well as don't harm babes in the faith because you can be a little child physically and or spiritually so the lord is warning don't cause a little child a physical child to stumble don't harm them as well as spiritual babes those are young in the faith causing stumble why why is the lord warning them don't do it because matthew 18 10. okay read that for me all right take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones for i say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my father who is in heaven now you know what he means by that right they have angels assigned to these children to watch over them and pray for them so they behold the face of my father and if you do anything to them they who are before my father will be then interceding for them so here's my question how can angels they're in heaven not because they behold the face of my father they're there how do angels in heaven know what's taking place to children on earth because god made it possible ah so you don't need to be omnipresent omniscient all you need is an omniscient omnipresent god revealing it to you so the holy spirit reveals it to them and allows them to even glimpse look pray intercede okay let me give you a couple more luke 15 go to luke 15. okay i got a few more and then if you have questions we'll be more than happy to take it and i respect the fact that you're sincere and out here just the debate and like i said very rare brother it's very rare my policy is someone is asking sincere questions even objections i'll take as much time patiently to lovingly answer but if someone's a troll then i do proverbs 26 verse 5.

but go to luke 15 7. luke 15 verse 7. all right verse seven i say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 just person just persons who need no repentance how can those in heaven rejoice over people on earth repenting if they're not aware of their repentance they wouldn't be able to but god made it possible so now since mary's in heaven peter's in heaven paul is in heaven all the believers who died in christ are in heaven yeah so are they aware when sinners repent and do they rejoice they yes they they can that's right okay now read verse 10 of that same chapter luke 15 verse 10.

likewise i say to you there is joy in the presence of the angels of god over one sinner who repents so again in the midst of the angels there's rejoicing when they see sinners repenting on earth which means those in heaven must be aware of what's taking place on earth now go to luke 16 and i'm going to show you the story of the rich man and lazarus okay luke 16. now i'm going to tell you where you read from verses 19 to 23 i'm going to sum it up you're not going to read it but go to luke 16 19 and 23 there we're told the rich man was a self-centered hedonist who just lavished you know lived lavishly feasting and could care less about his brother in need because lazarus was in a pitiful state virtually homeless had sores that were painful the dogs licked him he was at the gate just wanted something to eat from the rich man's table the rich man ignored him and lazarus suffered till he died and the rich man lived large a lavish lifestyle till he died then when you look at luke 16 22 23 it says the angels carried lazarus to abraham's bosom and then the rich man died and then found himself in torment in hades or hell that's verse 23 right yeah okay now i want you to read 24-25 then he cried and said father abraham have mercy on me and send lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue for i am tormented in his flame and then what is abraham saying 25 but abraham said son remember that in your lifetime you received your good things and likewise lazarus evil things but now he is comforted and you are tormented how did abraham know how the rich man and lazarus lived on earth through the holy spirit i assume oh so you get it abraham knew the rich man enjoyed life until the fullest till he died and lazarus suffered till he died so that means it is a lie that those in heaven heaven do not know what's taking place on earth but now it's going to get even better pay attention to this now read from 27-29 then he said i beg you therefore father that you would send him to my father's house for i have five brothers that he may testify to them lest they also come to this place of torment abraham said to him they have moses and the prophets let them hear them and he said no father abraham but if one goes to them from the dead they will repent but he said to him if they do not hear moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded through one rise from the dead yes even though you're at the 31 right it's okay you you went beyond 29 you went to 31 correct yeah correct that's fine notice 29 again read 29. abraham said to him they have moses and the prophets let them hear them okay let me ask you a question moses came about 400 years after the death of abraham and the prophets came centuries after abraham how did abraham know that moses and the prophets came and that right now on earth because notice he's saying your brothers right now have moses and the prophets let them hear them he's referring to the old testament scriptures because abraham's aware that moses and the prophets not only came but left behind writings for the jews to follow and believe how did abraham know all that when that took place centuries after his death in the holy spirit ah so he knew right yeah okay so i can go on and on like this the whole point is there's nothing in the bible that says those who are in heaven are not aware of what takes place on earth that's a lie that's not biblical i just showed you from the bible that that's actually the opposite of the bible teaches and i showed you not just from revelation i showed you from the gospels i can even show you hebrews 12 1.