( upbeat music, ), Hello from San Francisco.
This is Patrick McGee from the Financial Times and I'm quite excited about this upcoming interview.
We've got 30 minutes with John Krafcik. 00:00:21
He is charismatic, he is energetic and he is the CEO of Waymo, formerly known as the Google self-driving project, which goes back to 2009. 00:00:30
They are really in.
I mean, I think, pretty basically you could say they're the leading self-driving / driverless / autonomous robot taxi service operating. 00:00:40
They operate the only real driverless service in Phoenix right now. 00:00:49
They I believe, test in 25 cities, including on my streets.
It's even possible that I'll flip the camera at some stage if a Waymo goes by.
They've done more miles autonomously than any other driverless company.
, And if we really want to get a sense of when this technology might change our lives, I think it was nobody better To speak with than John Krafcik CEO of Waymo.
, Who is joining me here.
, So hello, John.
, Hey Patrick, it's great to be here.
Thanks! So much for having us.
You got the Waymo mug very nicely placed just over your- Yeah Waymo mug is strategically placed and, over my other shoulder there's the little Firefly prototype. 00:01:26
I can't see it.
, I feel, like I see a globe.
Oh, I see just above that yes.
All right, we'll get to the Firefly in a second'cause.
That's really interesting.
Yeah! This is your no pedals, no steering wheel vehicle, but you've moved beyond that.
And actually that's something that I wan na get to in a little bit. 00:01:47
I'm hoping you can begin with what I consider to be a pivotal story for Waymo.
, Which is you developed your first driverless car in, I think, late, 2009, 2010.
And by 2012.
You were doing these pilot projects allowing Google employees So people that had nothing to do with the self-driving project you're, allowing them to commute with their vehicles.
Sorry, with your vehicles.
Telling them, you know.
Under no circumstances should you not be overseeing the vehicle.
, You need to be doing that, but look how cool this is.
You know, let's do some tests and you filmed them.
And I think the film when the footage came back to you.
It shocked you and it really put Waymo on a different trajectory. 00:02:26
So do you wan na tell us that story, Yeah yeah and maybe just the tiniest bit of context, too.
So you're right Patrick.
, The project started in 2009 and by 2010, this scrappy little team of 20 to 30 folks had done some pretty extraordinary demonstrations of fully Autonomous driving.
, Famously there were 10 100-mile challenges that the team was able to compete in the first year and a half or two years.
, One of them included driving all around your neighborhood in San Francisco and then over to Lombard.
There was another challenge. 00:03:00
They went from Mountain View up El Camino, all the way 222 stoplights or whatever it was to San Francisco.
The team drove around Tahoe the team drive to Santa Cruz.
, So they made a lot of progress in demonstrating the promise of the technology right And so, at the time Google's thought was well.
What's the first viable at scale commercial product.
The initial hypothesis was, ironically, something called autopilot team, called it autopilot.
, And it was meant to command the car very safely to drive the car very safely from entry point to a highway or freeway to exit point.
And so in Google fashion.
At the time the company asked for volunteers within Google, we call this internally in the Google world.
And lots of people were interested in this possibility.
You'd get a free car.
At the time, the team was putting the driving mechanisms and the sensors and the compute onto Lexus RX SUVs.
, And there was a great demand for folks to actually give this a try. 00:04:07
So the bar was set quite high. 00:04:09
You had to agree to certain stipulations, including an indication that you understood this was beta technology and it might not be perfect.
, So you needed to stay at vigilant. 00:04:19
You could take your hands off the wheel, but you had to keep your eyes on the road. 00:04:24
You had to stay alert and we'd have cameras in the car to monitor you.
, And if we saw you misbehaving, we would take away this great privilege right.
So we started the project sometime in February.
I think it was 2013.
And within a month we shut the project down because we saw so many examples of humans misbehaving.
And it's this fundamental conundrum that we face whenever humans are forced to supervise technology right, It's really hard and as the technology gets better and Better and by the way, this technology that we had at that time was amazing.
Humans tend to check out and just assume that the technology is going to be perfect. 00:05:08
So in our videos, which you can find in Patrick, if you haven't seen them, we can send them to you.
, I think they're somewhere on our website at waymo.
, We saw some first indications of concern with the folks in the driver's seat.
Turning around to fuss with things in the backseat.
, We saw one woman putting on makeup using an eyelash curler.
, And the scariest thing we saw was a Googler who was driving to work early in the morning, predawn driving down highway 280 at about 62 miles an hour Who fell asleep because they had so much confidence in this technology that had been working for them so well over the course of a week or so right.
They had already checked out.
, So we shut that effort down and it sort of inspired us to move in a different direction to solve for full autonomy, fully autonomous driving. 00:06:00
So let me pause, you there.
The reason I'm bringing up this seven-year-old story is, I feel like it has added urgency now, because Tesla, which I guess to some extent is a rival - has its own technology also called Autopilot.
, But the latest iteration is called full self-driving.
And I feel like it's pretty clear: they've come to the same, you know fork in the road.
They've, seen the same problems with automation, complacency.
And yet they've basically said you know, `` We're not taking liability.
The driver is.
'' They have some prompts that they agree to and we're gon na allow the system to run.
And they want to expand it.
You know eventually to potentially hundreds of thousands of vehicles.
So based on Waymo's decision.
I wan na know to what extent you think: that's reckless.
, Because I don't know that regulators and consumers really make distinctions between different self-driving systems.
And what worries me is that if mistakes get made on Tesla's part - and you know these are cars - traveling 60 miles an Hour so clearly, fatalities could be involved.
Does that not pose a risk that you cast upon on the entire self-driving industry Yeah? Maybe a couple points to make there Patrick.
It is important that we talk about these things.
The first is Waymo's mission in the world.
Isn't to be a car company.
, Our product is a driver.
, That's our sole focus.
, And if you look at the business lines that we are just now, starting, for example, the ride sharing service that is fully open.
, Unlimited availability to anyone who's in Southeast Phoenix, you can Hail a Waymo.
Just download the app and a fully self-driving Waymo will come in and take you from wherever you wan na go from wherever you are to wherever you wan na go.
So the technology is here right.
, Our key technology is the driver. 00:07:46
That's the most important point.
That's what we're here! For.
We're, not a car company.
Therefore, so we really don't see Tesla as a competitor.
Rather, we see Tesla and other car companies working primarily in the driver, assist area which is important and good.
And good driver assist technology, can save lives.
There's no question about it.
The challenge, I think, for the auto industry.
The traditional auto industry is to ensure that consumers understand the limitations right And the conundrum that we saw at Google back in 2013 is, as the driver assist systems get better and better and better humans will tend to have more propensity to check out and not do As good a job as supervising that technology.
, It's a challenging conundrum.
, So the good news right now is that the driver assist systems do need human attention and they require constant surveillance and humans are able to stay sufficiently busy for the most part monitoring those things.
, As They continue to get better, though that's the challenge.
You would think that there would be increased safety, but there's also increased risk at the same time that the human licensed driver in the driver's seat might check out at just the wrong moment when the car needs some help. 00:09:06
But do you worry about Tesla being reckless and posing risks that might come back to haunt the likes of Waymo? I think you know it's nothing that we can really control at the Waymo side.
We're gon na do our best to speak about our technology and deploy it safely and responsibly. 00:09:25
You know I do think it's important for all the participants, both on the driver, assist side and the fully autonomous side to be as precise as possible with language right And if a licensed driver is required, it should be referred to as a driver assist system.
If a licensed driver in the car isn't required, which is the only technology that Waymo is working on, then I think then you should call that a fully autonomous, solution.
So, given that you went over some of the early facts of having a autonomous driver system that could navigate Lombard street, you know famous tourist windy hairpin turn street in San Francisco 10 years ago. 00:10:08
What, in a sense, is taking so long for this to sort of conquer cities? The way that Uber did, I think, a hundred cities within four years.
, And I guess what I look back to with Waymo is in 2018, you ordered 60,000 or up to 60,000 Chrysler Pacificas and up to 20,000 Jaguar I‑PACEs.
But if I look for the latest statistics, the latest I've heard is still around 600 vehicles.
I think you probably just haven't updated it and it's more than that, but correct me.
If I'm wrong, it's not in the thousands.
, It's not in the tens of thousands. 00:10:40
So why the postponement in delaying a driverless solution? Look, I think, the technical challenge that we're talking about is probably the most complex thing that a group of humans have ever tried to do.
Moving a large physical mass from any point, A to any point B on the ground with all of the chaos and entropy.
That's associated with traffic is an extraordinary task right.
There's no question.
, And if you look at our timeline yeah it has taken some time. 00:11:14
We demonstrated the first fully autonomous ride on public roads back in 2015.
In October 2015 in Austin, Texas.
We're just past the five-year mark now.
And if you look at the chunks of time since then Patrick, so that was 2015.
It took us another couple of years to upgrade that technology to our fourth generation.
, That Firefly car was our third generation technology.
, The Pacificas that you see driving around now in San Francisco.
They are the backbone of our service in Phoenix.
That's our fourth generation technology.
It took us a couple of years to have fully driverless capability, fully autonomous capability in Phoenix with the Pacificas and our fourth-generation technology.
That jump was important, though, because we went from low speed driving, which was sort of the ODD the operating design domain for the Firefly was below 25 miles per hour.
It turns out.
That's the only way you can put a car without a steering wheel on the road right now with the federal motor vehicle safety requirements that are out there. 00:12:23
We use the neighborhood electric vehicle classification called FMVSS 500. 00:12:26
I know I'm getting pretty geeky right now, but that's why the Firefly really wouldn't work at scale.
, Because it was sort of limited to a 25 mile per hour speed.
, Which makes it pretty undesirable for most city driving and suburban driving.
I actually didn't know that I wanted to ask.
I spoke to Aisha Evans from Xerox yesterday and they've gone in the direction of you know.
Moving from Toyota's, you know, ordinary Toyotas does they'd outfited.
And they're introducing you know in a few weeks their fully driverless solution that doesn't have you know, steering wheels or a pedal. 00:13:00
Waymo has already done that and then actually moved beyond that back to retrofitting Pacificas and I‑PACEs. 00:13:06
So is that the answer that regulatory reasons demands that there is a steering wheel Well right now, there's no path right now, other than a potential exemption path to have a full speed vehicle, a vehicle that can go over 25 miles per hour without a steering wheel Or brake pedal.
, So it is one of the reasons we chose to move from a dedicated format, but really not the primary one.
Like, if you think about the analogy of a human driver, a really good human driver with a commercial driver's license can drive a class A truck.
They can drive a motorcycle, they can drive a car, they can drive a bus.
That's the analogy that you should think of when you think about the Waymo driver right.
We aspire to drive anything that moves on public roads.
, Buses, trucks, cars, whatever.
And we don't wan na be tied to a single form.
We're designing this driver so that it can drive just about anything without too much incremental effort.
Truly the hardest thing that we're doing.
The thing that is 99.
9 % of the problem is the development of the driver. 00:14:15
Do you know the old adage about teaching a monkey to recite Shakespeare from a pedestal? There are two tasks: involved.
One is getting the monkey to jump up on the pedestal.
The other is getting the monkey to recite Shakespeare.
If you're tackling a big problem like autonomous driving, you have to decide what is your focus going to be? Is your focus going to be getting that monkey trained to jump on top of the pedestal, Or is it just start with the tougher thing? First And our approach at Waymo has always been the hard thing is replicating the extraordinary capability of the human driver. 00:14:55
That's the super hard thing.
, So that has been our focus. 00:14:58
There are lots of wonderful car companies in the world who are happy to partner with us and they're able to provide us those skills that we need and the opportunity to integrate our Waymo driver with a multitude of vehicle types. 00:15:11
And so, where are we at late 2020? I know that you're, a real car guy.
In fact I probably should have said at the introduction.
I mean you were formerly the CEO of Hyundai America.
I believe you spent almost 15 years at Ford.
, Been doing this since the early eighties.
, And you must be a good driver. 00:15:27
I think you own a Porsche 911. 00:15:29
How does the Waymo compete with your own driving capabilities, (, laughs ), So the Waymo driver is for sure the world's most experienced driver. 00:15:43
You know we've driven over 20 million miles but, more importantly, we driven billions of miles in simulation. 00:15:49
That's the primary way that we're refining in improving the capability of the driver. 00:15:54
You know it's an extraordinary thing.
, Whether or not I'm a better driver than the Waymo driver.
I think I would put my bets on Waymo.
And the reason for that is: .
Indistinct chatter ), But the thing about human drivers right Like we can be great drivers when we're focused.
The problem is human drivers are human and we lose our focus.
And our driving ability is often tied to things like distractions or lack of sleep or having had A glass of wine - or you know, looking at your phone and responding to a text.
These are the failure modes of humans which the Waymo driver is immune to. 00:16:37
Is it so that you're testing, currently in 25 cities Right now, I think we're in something like five or six.
We had been across 25 different cities in our history.
Right now we're driving.
We have the service up and running the Waymo One service up and running in Phoenix.
We're doing a lot of driving in San Francisco.
We spent a bit of time in Los Angeles this year in the Seattle area.
We drive a lot in Detroit and Ann Arbor.
, We've also been in Miami this year and the Upper Peninsula in Michigan, where we did some winter testing. 00:17:16
So we've been all over the place.
Out of curiosity, then, if I take these five or six regions and just say what, if Waymo One just launched in all of those cities tomorrow, You know for some reason you were just mandated to do.
The car sounds like it's capable to handle the challenge, but you're not doing that.
, So I mean what would happen in that hypothetical scenario.
Oh, I think in that hypothetical scenario you know we would well.
First of all, let me I guess, maybe challenge the context of the question.
We do very well where we have spent time learning how to drive and mastering that environment.
There are different challenges in different locations that take time for us to assure that we've got confidence to drive well in all those locations.
So I wan na go back to what we did in Phoenix, which is sort of flipping the conventional model.
You know around.
What we decided to do in Phoenix to demonstrate that we were capable was to share with a couple of white papers that we released at the end of October Patrick.
First, our methodology for safe driving, but then the results of all of our driving in Phoenix from January 2019 to September 30th 2020.
We drove 10 million kilometers in Phoenix during that period.
And we shared all of the contact points that we had with the world. 00:18:41
There was something like 47 of them in total.
In each of those 47 cases, there was a human agent who had some level of fault and in most cases, almost all of the fault.
, But in all of those cases the incidents were low, speed and relatively low Damage.
And the idea was, as opposed to sending out a shiny demo video trying to demonstrate that the Waymo driver is capable.
We took the exact opposite approach.
This is all of our driving. 00:19:14
These were all of the things that happened, that weren't ideal.
, And you know what It turns out that they're not so bad. 00:19:20
So we had that level of confidence in Phoenix to make the service fully available to anyone who wants to use it, as it is right now, based on that experience.
And now, as we move to other ODDs.
Other cities we wan na have that same level of comfort and experience as well.
, So we would do that before.
We just said: okay, let's drive everywhere.
, And so if the tech challenge is largely solvable, you know like that, sounds like it's in sight and you've done it for one city and presumably it's just a matter of time before you do it in others.
At what stage does profitability come into play? ?'cause these vehicles are pretty expensive.
A lot of research has gone into this.
, You know: do you have a sense of what costs per mile? Is it to operate these vehicles And are you gon na undercut the likes of Uber, Lyft and taxi services on price, And if so, you know, how does that vary your profitability goals? I mean there's profitability at all on the horizon for the next decade, or is that something to think about Absolutely the unit cost economics of fully autonomous driving are really attractive.
? I think it's one of the reasons why you know so many investors are interested in this space.
Hailing miles right now have a top line revenue per mile of about $ 2 $ 2 plus per mile depending on the city.
, And it's very easy to imagine a pathway to really strong margins for businesses like Waymo's with Waymo One. 00:20:55
The technology costs was something of course, that we keep tight within within Waymo for competitive reasons.
, But the cost of the Waymo driver is significantly lower than I think the expectation is. 00:21:10
Just to give you a general sense.
It's in the range of the cost of the cars that we're driving.
, So it's not an extraordinarily expensive piece of technology when integrated with an electric vehicle, which is our priority right now to have 100 % complete.
One thing I wonder about is I mean: did you envision a time, and maybe just you know as little as five years where in a particular city, you are competing with multiple driverless Uber type services And if that's the case, is there not a risk of that? There's sort of a race to the bottom In terms of prices.
Is there not a risk that the self-driving software that's costs? You know billions of dollars to develop, that it becomes commodified to some degree and that you have to differentiate on something else.
Maybe that's comfort or timing.
I think if developing self-driving fully autonomous technology is one of the more challenging things humans have ever tried to do. 00:22:11
I think the second most challenging thing might be trying to understand where competitors in this space are and where their capabilities really are. 00:22:18
It's fairly inscrutable Patrick.
, It's hard to understand.
, So I really don't feel equipped to opine on what anyone else in this space where they might be or how well they might be doing.
, There's really no way to define it without more transparency from everyone in the space And understanding what their true capabilities are.
, I have to say, though, that just based on our experience, we know the challenge and one of the things we've learned.
We've learned to become very humble over these last five years, because we understand what we might've thought in 2015.
We became so much smarter by 2017 when we got three fully driverless cars up and running at the same time.
It took us another year in 2018 to get a hundred fully driverless Pacificas up and running at the same time.
, And it took us another year to have the confidence to routinely put citizens of Southeast Phoenix into our cars.
And it took us another year right To feel that confidence to leave it open to everyone.
So it's a long road, it's an extraordinary grind.
, It's extremely expensive to do it well.
You need a massive compute power. 00:23:31
You need a huge team of really talented software engineers to deliver this.
, I'm proud to say: Waymo's got an absolutely amazing team.
There are now 2100 Waymonites working to bring vision of fully autonomous driving to the world.
And I'm quite confident.
We've got the most capable team in the world to make this thing: happen.
Who's, your biggest competitor.
What's that Who would you call your biggest competitor? As I said it's impossible to define that.
, I really don't have a good understanding.
, I'm not sure anyway. 00:24:08
Have you planned in an Argo, AI and a Zoox'cause? I mean to what extent do the executives allow each other to try out their vehicles, or is that just journalists? Let's see.
, I don't think I've been invited yet into any of those cars.
But at this point, I'd like to extend an invitation to anyone who wants to drive in a Waymo.
Just come down to Southeast Phoenix and you could give it a try, Yeah.
Well, I guess that no special permission, needed.
Okay, like several questions, come in and there's some overlap in the questions. 00:24:36
So let me just try to sort of give you three at once.
Obviously a lot of them are forward.
One question is just how you're gon na commercialize your products.
A few people want to note on licensing the technology to OEM, so I guess offer their own services that would use the Waymo technology, but presumably not be called Waymo One.
And someone wants to know.
Are you working on you know what might be called Firefly 2. 00:24:59
So are you gon na return to developing your own vehicle at some stage And another question? Actually you know what The second is a little bit different. 00:25:08
So I'll, let you answer those two first.
Okay, so we've got two primary business lines at Waymo.
Waymo One moves people in things from point A to point B; that's up and running.
Waymo Via moves goods.
, And we have two different vehicle: types.
We're using the Pacificas right now with companies like UPS and AutoNation.
Also in Phoenix.
, And then we have our class 8 projects and our wonderful new partner, Daimler trucks.
You know them through the Freightliner brand in the US.
, We're applying that Waymo driver to class 8 over the road trucking that we'll be starting on interstate 10 and roads.
Like that in the Southwest US.
, So those are the two primary go to market modes.
Folks, who are always interested in the personal car ownership model.
And we're working on that with our OEM partners.
It's not priority one for us because of the social benefit takes a little bit more time right, But the downside of personally owned cars is they're only in use for about 5 % of their time right, And so we can't really get as much social benefit from The technology as we can in a ride sharing model or in the Waymo Via goods, movement model.
, But we'll have that. 00:26:23
I think it will be likely a subscription model, though, where you can subscribe to this car for six months or a year.
, And then after that period, that car will move into a Waymo.
One like service, where the rest of the mileage in lifetime of the car can be consumed very efficiently.
We imagine getting 300,00 500,000, maybe up to a million miles in total from these cars, which is gon na help drive down those unit costs that we talked about earlier Patrick.
, It's gon na be a relatively trivial aspect of the total cost stack.
The cost of the Car then the cost of the driver when you look at it over a very high number of miles.
, This other audience question was: if you were restarting now, what would you do differently? Restarting going all the way back to the Chauffeur stage.
You know, I think our journey was a fairly efficient journey, although it doesn't seem like it. 00:27:25
I definitely would imagine thinking more deeply about the Firefly or not. 00:27:34
In the end, I think it served a really good purpose.
It became an avatar for the space and an emblem that everyone could look at and provided some awareness to the work that we were doing at that time, even as a very small entity. 00:27:47
So I don't know: no, maybe no no significant changes to the approach we've been taking.
We've always had the motivation to move people and goods.
That's always been part of our mission.
And we really haven't changed that even in the midst of COVID.
, I think it reinforced the need to deploy the Waymo driver flexibly so that it could move both people and goods from the very start.
, And I think the vision That we've had of flexibly applying the Waymo driver to a lot of different vehicle form factors is a really robust approach.
I think it makes sense. 00:28:21
We somehow are already down to just two minutes left.
I feel like we've just started. 00:28:25
How can that be? One thing I wan na know I mean obviously the biggest congratulations ever for being sort of first to launch a true service.
You know driverless for ordinary passengers in Phoenix.
, But I would not be sure if people in Arizona that can use this service would consider it.
You know sort of transformational to their lives.
I mean I could be wrong there, but, like you know, when we think of a self-driving future, you know we're.
Often thinking about like entire cities could be reshaped right.
We wouldn't need so many parking spaces and things like that.
, So I'm just curious as to whether there's a disconnect there between you know being able to launch the service in many cities and when we get this sort of revolutionary impact.
Is that decades into the future? How do you have to think about that? It's definitely not decades.
One of the cooler things about the launch in Phoenix is: we've got well over a thousand riders they've taken tens of thousands of rides.
And for them it does feel just normal.
Like it's pretty extraordinary. 00:29:28
We didn't focus our launch on tech enthusiasts.
We focused our launch on the general population of folks who might need to move from point A to point B and for whatever reason, didn't want to drive themselves.
So to me, it's sort of cool that it's just become this thing, that's part of their daily lives.
, I do think the revolutionary aspects that you're talking about we'll see more frequently as we begin to scale in cities like San Francisco, Patrick you'll, feel that more.
, I see the time ticking down as well.
I hope this is okay.
, But I got to see in the pre-show that you have a new addition to your family and we talked a little bit about yeah.
A little wildcard.
( indistinct, chatter, ) Yeah.
We wanted to give you this.
This is a Waymo onesie. 00:30:16
We give this to all of the Waymanites who are making new humans.
And what's cool about this set is there's newborn size.
This is the six months size. 00:30:26
Now you get a sense, for you know the size that your new child is gon na have.
That's the 18 months and beyond size.
, So we aim to keep your sweet little child in Waymo wear for at least the first couple of years of life.
I hope that's okay.
Look, I know we're a minute over, but I feel like people are willing to listen to John Krafcik, so maybe that's okay.
I just wan na throw in a last question, which was that you know I don't know to what extent Chris Urmson was your predecessor or something along those lines.
He is the Google self-driving project, but he had said I think in 2016 that he had a 13 year old and his goal was that his son would never get his driver's license. 00:31:07
You know it was a Ted Talk.
I think he was partly making a joke.
, But it also speaks to me of where how quickly we thought this was happening. 00:31:15
So let me just give you far more latitude.
This three week old I have.
Is she ever going to need a driver's license? You know how much is really going to change in the next 15 and a half.
Well, I guess it really is 16 years.
She absolutely will not need a driver's license.
I can say that with a hundred percent confidence.
They're gon na be so many different modes of transportation.
I mean if she wants to, she can get one.
And Patrick I'm glad you mentioned that I do love cars and I love driving cars.
We're always gon na have personally owned cars.
There's no concern about that.
And by the time she's driver license age, appropriate she'll be able to use Waymo's in just about any place that she might be. 00:31:59
There may be other companies as well that provide that service, but you'll also have access to cars that have the ability to convert, I think into a true L4 experience. 00:32:10
I think we'll have cars like that.
The subscription model that I mentioned earlier.
So yeah, that's one less thing for you to worry about and as a parent who got through two kids through the driver's license age.
I can tell you that it's nice, that you won't have to deal with that burden for sure.
I promise this is the last question.
, But I would actually question what you just said, which is the idea that we'll always be able to drive.
I mean sure if we're talking race circuits and so forth, I think that'll always be a possibility. 00:32:40
But I suspect that if it's 40 50 60 years in the future time when I hope we're both still alive, that once you've determined on a city by city basis, that robotic vehicles are truly saving lives and that they're available at scale and that everybody could take Them surely it becomes a logical thing that driving becomes banned. 00:33:03
I mean in the same way that well I guess I was gon na go on the horse analogy.
We won't go for that.
, There's no horses on the highway. 00:33:09
The last panel I had was already about a dedicated corridor in Michigan that I'm sure you're familiar with that will be sort of exclusive to connected vehicles, autonomous vehicles.
, And one assumes that that one lane eventually becomes two eventually becomes.
Three eventually becomes a whole four lane.
That actually strikes me as sort of obvious granted decades into the future.
, But you seem to question that.
Well, I guess I agree with the point that there will be some roads or some parts of cities more likely that exclude certain sorts of transportation.
Perhaps personally owned transportation.
We're seeing that in some city, centers already right The exclusion of cars, which would also, I believe, tend to exclude fully autonomous cars as well.
I think there will be cases and situations in some areas where perhaps there will be something that says.
You can't drive a car here if you want to humanly drive a car.
, But I think those will be the exception more than the rule, but we'll see we'll see.
, Okay, yeah.
No, I mean we're talking decades in the future.
Well, thank you.
So much John Krafcik.
, You know, I believe this is the final.
You know this is the wrap up interview for the entire event.
All that stuff is what we're all looking forward to, which is the audience, can ask me Peter Campbell and Joe Miller, the three journalists running this event, any question they want. 00:34:31
So I encourage everyone to stay tuned and watch that.
And thanks so much again to John and look out for a Waymo in a city near you.