Transcription: Foolproof Dictation And Zero Social Media With Christopher Downing - YouTube

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00:00:00
Hi everyone, I'm Johanna pen from the creative pen comm and today, I'm here with Christopher downing, how Khai Christopher hi Johanna good to be here.


00:00:06
Oh it's great to have you on the show.
Just a little introduction.
Christopher is the author of foolproof dictation, which I actually have right here by my desk and foolproof outline as well as writing under pen names in new adult romance science fiction romance and military sci-fi he's a full-time dad to three young children and also does online coaching For authors wanting to dictate, which is super useful, so Chris, if I just give us a bit more about your background, how did you get into writing? Well, I started in elementary school my my biggest award that I've ever ever ever won and writing was in fifth grade.


00:00:45
I want a district, tried, writing competition and, and then I went downhill for about 20 years.
I got back into it as an adult in 2005 and I wrote a couple novels that I tried publishing.

00:00:57
Traditionally that didn't go very well, partly because I didn't know what I was doing yet and then I entered the the indie world in about 2015, when I published my first memoir under my real name actually at that time, so yeah.

That was it.
That was it so I've been writing my whole life and I just it took a long time to get there.
Yes, why did you get like? Why did you want to be a writer because you mentioned you're a full-time dad is because being a writer is kind of flexible, isn't it it is it is.

I mean there are still some demands on being a writer, especially for indie.
Now it takes up if you're running your own business, you would know that you publish a few books on that subject.
You know whether you're doing your marketing or are you know what I've found.

What I miss the most is just having creative quiet time.

00:01:49
I'm a full-time dad, so I don't get a lot of daydream time.
So that's probably the thing that that eats into my ability to create the most as a full-time dad is it's just quiet, creative, daydream time.

You don't get that a lot you know and when you do it's like 12 o'clock at night and I'm not much of a night person anymore.
So there you have it yeah.
What's interesting, we might come back to that later.

But let's we're going to talk about dictation, because I I've had a couple of authors on the show about dictation and I've gone through my own dictation journey.

00:02:21
And when I found your book, which I think must have come out around the time when I was finding other things not working so well and I read it and I was like okay, this is interesting.
This sounds more like me.

So can you give an overview of the writing session and then we'll get into the details of different aspects? Sure! Well, let's see you know what I do is I I assisted systematically divided my time.
You know the for the first half of my writing session is going to be warming up warming up my brain revving up my brain.
You know: there's there's loop as the language composition, parts of our brain, that if you're an introvert or you spend a lot of time with children or you don't spend a lot of time talking to yourself all day and which i think is most people when it Comes time to dictate your brains not ready to go so what I do is I have systematically created a way to warm up your brain.

That's what's pretty important! So let's say you have a two-hour window to do get some writing in you know.
You'll spend about 10 to 15 minutes reading out loud or doing some free writing some sort of that activity, just loosey-goosey kind of stuff, and then I have created some exercises.
So you spend about 40 minutes working through some exercises so to to focus specifically on some different kinds of of dictation that you might do whether it's sentence, construction and our vocabulary work or something like that and then the second half.

Once your brain is ready to go, you know, then you dive into your work in progress mmm and I think the big issue that everyone has is you're just talking about spending 40 minutes warming up and like isn't that a complete waste of time? Because if people have only that say, they have half an hour instead of two hours so and they spend seven and a half minutes of half an hour warming up when they could have written.
I don't even know how many words in in that long.
So why? Your focus on that warm and these exercises well first off.

I think that you know the bottom line is that experience is the best teacher.
If, if you have a half an hour to write, I promise you that the last 15 minutes of writing will go a lot.
More will be much smoother more pain-free if you spend the first half of it, just free writing and just in just writing anything if you just dive into your work in progress - and I know 99 % of authors out there have experienced this.

If you sit down in front of your laptop and just start, writing it's hard to get going.
It's almost a painful process.
The next thing you know, you're searching your email or checking your sales page and that kind of stuff you're finding the path of least resistance, and this will come up again.

We're always going to the path of least resistance.
And so it's just easier to get the brain warmed up.
So the other thing is, is you know we've? I think the indie world has gone through a phase where we're all trying to write fast, whether we're doing 2k to 10k or 5,000 words per hour or or dabbling with dictation.

You know, there's been this movement to write quickly and I think I did it.
You know, and it's great we all learned how to write quickly, but this at the same time.
I think a lot of us got in the mindset that achieving high words, for our high words per day is the ultimate goal and I've kind of started stepping back from that a little bit realizing, and I think a lot of other - and Chris Fox has mentioned This recently start time to start focusing on the craft a little bit more, so if we can get high words per hour and yet at the same time warm up.

You know the craft side of our brain where we we can dictate, let's say a decent sentence or a somewhat complicated systems, a sentence, that's written, beautifully or well.
I think that I think that does us all better in the end yeah yeah, I think you're right and with a net circle back to you.
Why dictate, then, because one of the reasons that many people want to dictate is to go faster.

So what are the reasons that you think people should consider dictation? Okay, two reasons, one.
It is faster and once once you get there, it is, it is faster.
I mean I like to use the analogy of.

If you were writing by hand most of your life and someone handed you an electric typewriter and they said work with this and for three months - and you know, let me know how it goes and if you didn't have someone there training, you coaching, you encouraging you On a daily basis, you know after two weeks you would pick the thing up and throw it out the window and say what is it's.
Why skew the first letter that doesn't make any sense right? So it's the same thing.
You know you got to stick with it, it is faster if you stick with it and then the other thing that I think is the biggest bonus of dictation is that you can enter a creative flow state without the distractions.

I think your inner critic, once you get good at it, your inner critic goes away, you're, not worried about editing on the screen, and you don't have this computer in front of you.

00:07:32
In fact, i dictate away from my computer.
Now i go kind of monica.

Leonel talked about this, her walkie-talkies she'll pack, her a little bag and you know, go for a walk and have people stare at her funny.
I love that and - and I do that I said I don't go - I don't go publicly.
I still can't do that, but you know get away from the computer.



00:16:27

You get away from your distractions.
I think that's that's huge! Here's an example I like to give to people too there's a there's.
A website called the most dangerous writing app or the most dangerous app, and what it is is it's an app where you typing and you sit down, and you set your writing sprint.

5, 10, 20 minutes and then the cursor will pop up.
And if you slow down your writing, if you stop writing for more than I think five seconds the entire text disappears, so it forces you to keep going right.
It's horrible to you, take ten minutes into it and you get everything just goes away and you're like what this is.

A slightly nicer version called write or die, which starts deleting backwards.
Yeah.
It starts deleting backwards, so you don't lose everything, but where was I going with that? Oh so I would encourage anyone to try that because there's a comment, there's a kamikaze version of it to where it actually blocks out what you write.

So it prevents you from editing as you type and that's great too, so try something like that and you experience.
Oh there's there's no self editing as you type and you realize that you can start typing faster and then you can enter into that creative flow state without editing as you type and so the point of that being when you dictate the same thing happens, you can't Edit, as you type, whereas you as you write and that forces you to or it allows you to enter into that flow state, that's crucial for us as writers.
It doesn't make sense and well partly the reason why I really like your book is this cyclical.

Writing idea, which well, first of all, let's just be clear on that warmup you are reading like you, have some exercises that you also encourage people to read books in their genre to kind of get in the mindset.
Don't you yeah it's just it's just like before you have an interview with Joanna pin.
You want to warm up your voice, you wake up you wake up at 6:00 in the morning, and you want to warm up your voice before you start talking yeah.

I would encourage anyone to read out loud or do free writing.
In fact, I'm actually leaning more towards free writing these days.
Just you know, stream of consciousness.

Writing reading out loud is a great way to it.
Just it just warms up your it warms up.
Your mouth, it warms up your breathing.

It helps you integrate function into your punctuation into your speaking and also to when we, when we, when we write with a keyboard, we often use a different set of vocabulary.

00:10:29
Different sets of sentence construction than we do when we're talking to people or when we're dictating.
So the idea is to try to merge those two so by reading out loud or practicing some free writing.


00:10:42
It allows you to sort of delve deep and explore the vocabulary.
The sentence constructions that you would use like you would do in writing.
Otherwise, when you start dictating, you either have long rambling sentences.

You overuse the word and I and it just and is the most frequently word used in my dictation, at least when I was beginning, or you write a lot of short choppy sentences and none of which really work out so yeah.
I found that actually the short, the short choppy sentences just because they didn't like saying comma a lot funny.
Let's now talk about this, the cyclical writing blocks.

The 2 5 10 20.
Explain that, because I think this is the thing that really makes it a different approach: yeah it the this speaks to the inner critic and setting expectations and I'll tell the backstory of how this started.
This is where the full foolproof dictation even began.

I was reading was a coffee break? Oh good, my mouth is getting dry.
Also, you need to have a lucky.
This is my owl cup.

I've had this first eight years now this is, you have to have a lucky coffee because you're talking so I was reading Rachel Erin's 2k2 10k, which most people have read at this point.
It's been out for a couple years and she talked about with the one one of the sides of her writing triangle is knowing what you're gon na write.
So she suggested writing a 200 to 500 word summary of your scene before you started.

Writing it and I was a great piece of advice, whether you're, typing or dictating.
So I started doing that when I was before I was dictating and then that translated over to dictation.
So I would, I would dictate a small version of the scenes, 250 words, and that would be about two minutes, and then that was easy.


00:12:56
I noticed that was easy.
I could do that and that helped clarify a lot of the ideas of the scene.
The structure of the scene where the scene was going and then I would say well, let's try to expand that a little bit.

Let's pick some of the beats, the story, the the the scene beats.
I'm gon na try to expand them.
A little bit add in some more detail, so then I would go for five minutes and then I would do it mostly from memory, because the things that stuck out in my memory from what I did just the the dictation before are usually the important the important Parts, so I would do it for five minutes and then I would think about that for about thirty seconds and what really hit home and what I'd want to change and without slowing down too much.

I would jump right into ten minutes and then, after that, I would do about a 20 minute.
20 minutes a 20 minute dictation, if you're not entirely flubbing it up is about.
You know a thousand about 1800 words.

You know if you're, if you're dictating at about 5,000 words per hour, don't do the math and test me on that, but you know starting small starting small, gradually increasing increasing a little bit more and the next thing you know you're dictating the entire scene.
It's just! It's just it just feels a lot easier.
If you were just to say, even if you were typing, you know right at 800, word scene, here's a small outline go, you would probably spend you know three or four hours clunking your way through it.

But if someone were to tell you, you know, write it, you know 200 words and then a sudden 700 words, a thousand words in two thousand words.
You could probably do it now if you're typing the idea of rewriting that much is.
Is it's just no? Thank you.

I don't I don't like rewriting when I'm typing, but if you think about it, if you write a scene using the two five ten and twenty you minute cycles, you've only spent what 40 you can do, the math on that one.
You do 40 minutes.
You know you've rewritten the scene four times working it through developing it expanding and working in details and you've only spent 40 minutes rewriting a scene four times, and I think that's that's worth the time and then it's amazing what you can do with that yeah and I think that's what's interesting and I had Kevin J Anderson on the show and he talked about when you're starting out just do note to yourself and thoughts and ideas.

Don't try to go from zero to finished draft writing with dictation like with your first go, and that, like you say, expectations are oh, I just pick up the device, and I start talking and I magically create like 2,000 words like chapter just, doesn't happen, whereas this Is like okay, two minutes come up with a couple of sentences that will that are not your finish.
Sentences they're like just the outline and there's somebody who's, not an outliner that to me just felt much more helpful in terms of getting to the point where I could then dictate the next draft and just to be clear.
What we're talking here with people is we're dictating into a device or or the computer, but you're not looking at the screen.

So it's and the point is then you could read that into the transcription mode and get it up on the screen if you wanted, but you said we don't do that anymore.
No, no, I never did.
I think I dabbled with you know non traps cubed on transcription writing directly on the screen for about 10 minutes, and I said this is nuts, although it was a previous version of Dragon, I still, I still don't do its transcription.

Only I like to be away from the computer.


00:16:27

I carry notes with me, I'm in fact oh oh I'll email, my PDF of my own outline, usually or I'll print them out to my Kindle and keeps them with me, but be honest at this point.
My career sitting in front of a computer is the least creative environment.

For me to do any writing.
I can't stand it.
I can't stand sitting in front of my computer when I'm writing.

I would much rather be sitting in front of a three-ring binder with my printed out outline and and in dictating on the state I'm over my computer.
I really well, I know, III, we will come back to that in a minute about marketing things, but it's the other thing I was thinking with the cyclical approach.
Is that Dean Wesley Smith, who I'm a huge fan of talks about writing into the dots as inch yeah? But he also talks about his cyclical approach, which is he might write 1,500 words, but then he'll kind of go back read through maybe add.

I said he writes a clean first draft, but he still cycles through that draft.
So each line is actually touched.
You know might be a couple of times and then kind of works like that, and your transcription method actually feels more like that, which is by the second in.

Even if you don't do it four times, if you maybe get it on the third time you you have been through a cycle so that that third time is much cleaner than if you just tried to do it once right.
Yeah.
If your app answer, which you are right, I know a few tentpole moments and then I pants it yeah it's you know the scene will grow organically and whether you use an outline or a small outline or a detailed outline or you're entirely pantsing.

The scene grows organically from from your own creativity and that's that's that's what makes it fun.
I liked writing into the dark too.
I enjoyed that book too.

I actually went back and read that after I published foolproof outlines so it's kind of like the two extremes right, but I get it and I love it.
You do need to be able to.
You do need to be able to harness the excitement from the creative centers of your brain, while you're writing or otherwise.

Your writing will come across as flat and dull, and the reader will experience that too, and that's not that's not good, so you know letting scenes grow organically, even if you have a small outline or a detailed outline, I think, is part of the exciting process of Writing yeah, and I should I should say I she reaches over and gets foolproof outline hello.
I don't actually have every you know everyone who comes on the show.
We don't have that books in print, but I actually thought yours in print because of the exercises that are in them.

I actually find it easier to have them in print so they're and they're very short books.
Just so everybody knows they are not.
What you're talking about is not some massive tome that takes forever to kind of understand what you've done, I think, is break it down into a different way of Management which, which is great so just before we talk about the outline.

What is some of the excuses that cut? I mean you do this coaching, this coaching for people who want to dictate, which i think is brilliant, because there's so much its mindset.
It's all mindset really.
So what are some of the common issues that people are bringing to you and how can we get past them? The fourth? What's the first one is punctuation right? That's it's so annoying, but I think that's because people try to try to add punctuation too soon.

I think you need to learn to be able to speak fluently and develop sentence structure, be able to tap into your your writing vocabulary before you do.
Punctuation punctuation should be the last thing that you fold in.
So what is it? I think editing editing is going to be a huge one.

Is accuracy there's editing, so I'll speak to a few of them briefly, iMac accuracy, if you're speaking, if less you're from East Texas, if you're, if you're speaking, accurately and slowly with controlled breathing the new versions of dictation of dragon are going to give you a good Accuracy, no matter what I think, you're gon na get close to 95 to 99 % accuracy.
So the key is to learn how to speak slowly with good breathing and speak articulately, and if you can do that, that really will take care of most of your accuracy.

00:21:04
Problems, it's got Baker.

Scott Baker mentions that a lot in his books, his books to the editing.
You know that the website I talked about the world's most dangerous, app or or right to die that you mentioned, so do that you know like sit down and in the Kamikaze mode and where it covers up what you write and then start your type of small Scene or type the story of Little Red Riding Hood out and see how much faster you type.
If you can't see what you need to go back and edit, that said, you'll see how many mistakes that you make you make a ton of mistakes if you're not watching what you type on the screen.

So what you're doing is you're actually eliminating a huge amount of time that when you go back and correct words, as you type or, and I know we're not supposed to do it, but we all do it.
If you see a sentence that doesn't look right or the punctuation is wrong, you misspelled a couple words or autofill has taken over your world and destroyed it.
You you're always you're, always going back and correcting as you go.

So if you were to tell me that I spent too much time after I've transcribed editing all the mistakes or editing things out well, I would counter that by saying how much editing do you do as you type and that editing you as you do, as you Type interferes with the creative, the creative flow state you're trying to achieve as a writer.
So I think I think the net gain of of dictation actually creates, creates less editing in the long run.
Once you get the accuracy in your articulation yeah is that the path of least resistance? You know as you as human beings? I don't I don't care what hobby are taking up or what you do for a living.

Your brain will often go to the path of least resistance and, if you're, if you're good at typing at the keyboard, if you're great at typing at the keyboard, that's only gon na make the switch to dictation more difficult because, as you struggle with dictation you're gon Na want to just just type it out, you know, it'll go so much faster and that's really that's where the coaching comes in and I do believe I'm the only coach out there offering the service he's just someone to check in with you on a daily basis And give you encouragement when I was starting to dictate.
I wish I had.
You know whether it was a Facebook group or a writing group locally in town where we could get together and give each other daily encouragement.

There hold each other accountable to to dictating without falling back to the path of least resistance, just which is typing yeah.
No, that's great, because I think a lot of people have these and I keep coming back to it so funny.
I've been interviewing people on dictation.

Monica was like four years ago or something you know, and I've done two but two novels and some of nonfiction, or we should just say all of this stuff is this is, is this the same for nonfiction, because of course you have non-fiction books as well? Yeah? Yes, absolutely yeah, it means you still have to organize your brain before before you get started and you have to learn how to organize your brain on the fly.
It's the same thing with your nonfiction or fiction yeah.
I think that's important.

So let's talk about that out the foolproof outline briefly, because it is something because you've kind of broken down the dictation.
I think you've also done the same with outline and you use Scrivener for the outline and you actually have some templates which are fantastic now.
I use Scrivener, but what one thing people get really confused about is: how do you use Scrivener with dictation and outlining so? Can you just explain how those things fit together in a process so that people can kind of visualize it and then, of course they can get the books if they want more details? Well, the thing with Scrivener is it's what's great about Scrivener is that is that you can use it.


00:24:50
However, you want to there's no right or wrong way to use Scrivener for me, it's an organizational tool.
I can always speak how I do it.
It's an organizational tool.

I use it for my outlining and I organize my scenes.
I have questionnaires you know over off on the side that I use for my brainstorming.
In the end, I don't write directly to Scrivener.

I don't anymore now that I'm dictating well I'll.

00:25:17
I will dictate into my head.
I do have this by the way I just want to show up.


00:25:23
This is my little buddy right here.
This is my little is my little recorder.
I used to use a voice app on my phone, but this is the way to go so tell us what it is, because everyone's like no no what's to know what it is.

Oh well I'll, send you a link.
If that's all, right too, it's a Sony model, that's a big number yeah! It's it's a Sony and I use this little splitter here.
I also use this is my Logitech headset that I bought four years ago for $ 15.

It does annoy cancellation boom.
I think I've seen your setup.
It's you have a very nice setup right.

You have a pretty fantastic mic, don't you, but for the for dictation I just have a little Sony but we'll put the link to your setup in the show, notes and but yeah carry on with yeah so Scrivener.
So I use it for organizing I'll use it for organizing my work, organizing my questionnaires and outlines what I do now is.
I will often print my print.

My outline out put my questionnaires out.
Put them in a three reminder: leave the computer away behind.
If I need I'll get a hotel room for 99 bucks a night and or something like that or go to the library find a study room and without the computer there I'll just use my paper notes and my dictation then, when I transcribe through dragon and that Will usually pump it into? I use a rich text document.

I don't use word or it tends to get this just a couple variables with word that I don't like to use with transcriptions.
So I'll just use a rich text document and then just simply cut and paste it over into Scrivener.
So I don't write into Scrivener.

I just used it for organization yeah exactly and I do as well.
I think this is really important.
Do not try and dictate with dragon into Scrivener or word, because things just go really wrong.

Don't they they do they do I'm, especially if you're dictating live without using transcription.
I mean how many times have you looked up and an entire paragraph is just dawn and you're like something like you know.
It's stop doing like repeating a word or yes.

So that's just a real tip like keep it simple dictate and then you put the file in.
I do the same thing, but just to wind it back on the outline.
Do you type your outline into Scrivener or do you do your outlining on with dictation and then do dude put the outline in that way as well pen and paper, I will actually print out.

I will print out my outline and my questionnaires that I talked about in the foolproof outline.
I print them out now put him on a three-ring, binder and I'll sit on the couch and just use a pen and paper, and I just like doing that.
It just it takes me to a creative space, and maybe that was comfortable for me 20 years ago, but, like I said sitting on the computer, just doesn't feel creative to me anymore.

So I don't like doing that.
So I use been a paper to to outline and brainstorm okay cool.
So you you down right.

Yes, so you write stuff down by hand and then you type into Scrivener the things that you wrote down and then you print out what you've typed and then you take that and you dictate from that kind of outline.
That's right, yeah, that's right! This is a bit of everything really, but the point is the the long actual finished text is dictated and then you edit, presumably do you handed it printed final draft or something I mean you know manuscript, no I'll, let it I'll let it in Scrivener III will Use the keyboard when I, when I edit, because my fingers are so fast when it comes to editing, you know, selecting and kind of cutting and pasting and moving text around and right-clicking to get opened up to the Souris.
That kind of thing it just it works.

So much faster on the keyboard.
You know one point I do want to make to everybody is: we are talking about a first draft when, when I dictate, I would never dictate anything beyond a first draft its I'm, not that good.
Yet I'm not sure anyone is that good.

Yet I think that's, I think you know eliminating the expectations of a quality draft when you're dictating makes things easier.
So we're talking about a first draft and sometimes if I'm dictating and I catch myself using small clunky sentences or run-on sentences, it's going to happen, but you just roll with it and you you got ta trust your editing process.
You know I'll, let it I mean like most of us, I'll, probably at it unless you're Wesley, then you don't much in the end, but I'm gon na.

Let it something you know three or four times three or four passes before I think it's close to finished and so we're talking about dictating a first draft yeah.
I think that's really important to you.

00:30:12
Okay, so let's come on to the privacy thing, because you manage all these different pen names now I say: manage pen names, because you know I manage three different pen names.

I have websites, I have email list, I have social media.
I do all these different things for all my pendings now and explain how you do pen names and how you also do the privacy thing and a know, social media thing and and how do you why, and how do you do all of that, do things? Well, it's half half of is necessity, I'm a full-time dad.
I don't.

I don't have time for social media.

00:30:48
I detest social media anyways, but even if I didn't I just I don't have I don't have time for that.
It's just like.

I don't have time for much marketing.
I think I've found you know so much market.

00:30:59
What did the return Marketing isn't that great? So you spend 90 percent of your time and you get like a 10 % return or whatever something like that.

So I found you know just focus on what little time you have, if you just focus on writing good books, a bunch of them.
You know, I think the best bets for the payoff is.
I just don't have time for marketing.

I don't have time for Facebook.
I don't have, I don't have time to allow my brain to get sucked into.
You know, checking notifications so often so I do have.

I do have 4 4 pin names who knows next month.
It'll be five that just came from well, the first.
The first time was, I was writing romance and there is a rumor out there that male romance writers don't do as well as female romance writers.

And it's true and it's true so I did I did.
I was a female pen name for romance, but then there was, I was in Facebook at that time and then I was caught in this dilemma of well.
Do I create this fake persona, or do I just have a pen name and just let it go because creating a fake persona where I'm interacting with readers, which I caught myself doing, seems like fraud that didn't feel right at all because they thought they were talking To a woman - and I was pretending to be a woman - and I was like this - is not right - this isn't good.

I shut that all down.
I was a jack deject, so I shut that down.
So I use pen names, but I don't use them to create a social media presence.

I don't, I don't create a false persona.
It's just a pen name, you know it's all there is to it.
I actually do have a male pinion that I do for new adult romance too and there's there's a small, enthusiastic readership that doesn't feel comfortable either.

So I need to create a barrier there, and I also have three kids and I have a you know.
I'm happily married with three kids and we just we're not afraid of the outside world.
It's just it's just nice.

When you have this little protected environment.
I use a fake age address for my mailing lists.
That kind of thing I I just don't want anyone.

You know it's like when you receive a one-star review, you know it's like they.
Don't just tell you how bad your book is.
They tell you how bad of a person you know - and I just don't want that in my life, so I've chosen to not do that.

So, that's that's why I used not only pin names, but just I just don't want that in my life and again I know everyone's going, oh well, how does he sell any books and because we're keeping your pending secret? We can't like point to your books, but can you give us a number of how many books you have out there? Because I think you said you know you have to have more than like three books right to to market by writing.
Yeah! No! I have 10.
10 10 for like books, and then I dabble a lot in short, romance stories too, which is which is just sort of a fun hobby.

I have it's.
I almost feel like it's a little bit different than my writing: career yeah.
It's just you know you there's! There's different ways that you can market outside of social media.

I mean I still use paid advertising through Amazon, which, once you start getting keywords down it, there's that it does pay off.
You know I do rely heavily on the almost are the almost spots he also bought.
You know and I'm I did dabble with the money suck Facebook advertising there for a little bit and I lost a ton of money over a six month period and I just I I just don't other ways to do it so um.

You know, I still say the best way to market a book is, to put the you know series I always write in series is to put the at the very end, put the sales link to the next book in the series.
That's on the last page in the back matter of your book and if they like the first book, they're gon na buy the second book, and you can't convince somebody just through marketing and buzzwords and to buy a book.
They, like your book, they're gon na, buy it, they don't buy it.

Well, then, you should probably start rethinking on how your wrote the book in the first place.

00:35:11
So that's the biggest payoff.
You know the temptation there, of course, is to do a pre-order, which I've done in the past and made that mistake is to put a pre-order in the back matter of a book.


00:35:21
I would encourage everyone to never ever ever do that, because that creates a sense of pressure that you don't want in your life.
That's how I do it, that's it! That's that's! That's my secret.
I put the sales page on the back matter of a book for the next book in the series and then let it roll and then just use some some advertising to try to get in people's ocelots.


00:35:42
Okay.
It's interesting because I know quite a few authors who do this approach and it's definitely it definitely suits.

00:35:49
You know, people who are focusing on the writing first and also with pen names.

I totally agree with you: it's very difficult to do all the different types of marketing.
Like I do under my own name.
I can do lots of things because it's it's me and I don't have to hide that but very month, so I agree with use, can be particularly difficult, so yeah I get that it's a good, a good recommendation and did you so you said you were on Facebook, and then you wound it back, did you ever do any of the other social media? Oh I did.

I did Twitter for a little bit and you know Twitter did great.
I met some great connections.
While I was doing, I was doing work on male depression and advocacy advocacy advocacy work for men with mental illness at that time, so that I built a lot of really great connections.

When I wrote my first memoir and now that's under my regular name, people can find that this is a great psychologist Steven Handley who wrote the foreword.
I met him through Twitter, so I'm not a total Luddite.
You know, I think, there's there's some benefits, but I think the net gain there's not really a net gain when it comes to social media.

That's just my personal opinion.
So, honestly it it was the 2016 American presidential election that just caused me to just bail.
I couldn't I was like it was.

It just really showed me like how how negative this place can be so that what that was a that was when I bailed yeah.
It's really interesting and I think, there's a lot of people who are tired of social, whatever political side of the spectrum they are on, it has become very argumentative and opinionated and and things so I my kind of method is to just mute and block, and you Know markers spam and just loads of mess for cutting out the noise.
So I think if people people listening are attracted to what you've done but feel like they're way, deep like I am yet like there are ways that you can control that noise without giving it up completely, and one really good thing is the digital fast.


00:38:00
Obviously, when you can, when you just give it up for like a week and then you might calm down, but I love what you've done.
I think it's really interesting.
Okay, so we're out of time, but tell people where they can find you and your books and that we can talk about annual dictation, coaching online sure right now, I'm a coach got me.

I provide it's affordable coaching for people who want to learn dictation.
That's 15! Bucks a month we dabble into all sorts of writing.
The best thing is about.

It is just someone who's gon na hold you accountable to using your dictation and not falling back on the keyboard too much.
I offer different packages for beginning writers and professional writers, so anyone who's who's published plenty of books but have trouble with dictation.
I have I have some ideas for them too.


00:38:44
You know.
The only place you can really find me is is on my Amazon, Amazon homepage.
So it's Christopher downing, who I don't know I don't know whatever that is, but you just so you can search for me.

There huh Amazon and that's that's where I am pretty otherwise.
Otherwise, I'm hiding in a cave and in Colorado.
Oh Colorado.

Now we know.
Well, thanks so much you at home, Christopher.
That was great.

Thank you! So much Joanna .


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