Welcome to follow him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their come.
Follow me study, i'm hank smith and i'm john.
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We follow him.
, hello, my friends and welcome to another episode of follow him. 00:00:23
Our podcast is designed to help individuals and families with their come.
Follow me study.
I am here with my co-host john, by the way.
Welcome john thank you hank good to be here yep.
We are man, we are.
We keep coming back every week.
Are we gon na come back for another episode? Do we have anybody? Listening and people are listening, so thank you so much.
I never got a second date in high school, so this is it's nice that, but we keep coming back uh.
As you all know, if you've been listening to the podcast, we bring on a guest expert with each and every week to help us go through the the sections of scripture for uh.
A sign for that come follow me lesson and john.
Tell us who we have this week with us: oh i'm very excited not only about our guests, but about these sections.
I'm sure he's excited to talk about him.
We have scott woodward and i have a brief bio for scott.
He graduated with his phd in instructional technology and technology from brigham young university and has been teaching professionally in the church educational system for nearly two decades, including seminaries and institutes, byu, religious education and currently a member of the byu, idaho, uh, religion, faculty and scott is Currently, a managing director of doctrine and covenants, central, which is a rich resource of gospel, scholarship on all things related to the doctrine and covenants.
And i want to make sure we take a minute and talk about this, because i absolutely love book of mormon central and all the resources on there and now i'm so glad they're starting doctrine and covenant central. 00:02:24 00:02:11
So we should probably have scott tell us some more about that yeah, absolutely scott tell us about it. 00:02:05
Welcome well! Thank you good to be here thanks, hank thanks john uh yeah doctrine and covenant.
Central is uh kind of a a a sister to book, a mormon central, we're just uh partners, we're working together, uh and if you've, if you've ever seen, book of mormon central we're hoping that doctrine and covenant central gets that kind of uh uh traction and scholarship.
Uh and people come into it as a kind of a clearing house for yeah all things, doctrine and covenants that is quality stuff.
So right now, we've got the first 25 sections up with resources from stephen harper susan easton, black casey griffiths.
I also do some explainer videos for the sections, we're covering historical background, we're covering the the people of the doctrine and covenants.
We have a verse by verse commentary uh on there and uh yeah we're just uh. 00:03:00
We also have links to all kinds of scholarly articles.
If you want to dig a little deeper for each section of the doctrine and covenants and so uh yeah we're just trying to put together the the uh, the one-stop shop for your doctrine and covenants needs yeah scott.
We here at the follow him.
Podcast are big fans of book of mormon, central and now doctrine and covenants central.
We hope everybody listening will give doctrine, covenant central uh a look this week and go through some of the amazing resources that are there.
I use it uh quite a bit in just preparing for our our podcast in just looking looking ahead.
I just looked at the stats.
We've only been live for about a month and there's already been about a half a million visitors. 00:03:43
If you want to learn stuff, i mean look at everything.
That's at our fingertips, uh that online.
This is a great time to live.
Thank you so much for being here, scott and thank you everybody for listening. 00:03:56
Let's, let's jump in uh with dr scott woodward into these sections doctrine: covenants 18 and 19.
Now, scott, the previous sections before this talked about uh, the the three and the eight witnesses um and now we're we're moving forward with the the translation of the book of mormon um they're they've, now moved from the small town of harmony, township, pennsylvania, they've moved away Because of persecution and difficulty back to new york, but not all the way to manchester they've they're in fayette, where they're going to complete the translation of the book of mormon, so what's happening here in june of 1829 uh that would bring about uh this.
This revelation: why does joseph even go to the lord and who's this too, and what's the circumstances around it uh if we go back a little bit if we go uh to march 18 29.
The lord told joseph in section 5 that this was the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church.
He said he said it was soon to occur.
He didn't give a date.
He just said it's soon to happen.
This might be the very first moment where joseph thought there's going to be a church that comes of this. 00:05:14
You know when i was growing up.
I thought that joseph walked out of the sacred grove and he thought i'm going to build a church.
I'm going to create the lord is going to restore his church through me, but it turns out when you look at the historical record. 00:05:24
That's not true.
All joseph knew was he shouldn't join any church, and then he should just uh kind of wait, right, uh and then moroni happened and then now this book of mormon. 00:05:35
What he understands is my role is to bring forth the book of mormon.
What he's going to do after that? He doesn't know until section five right he's going to move, probably back to harmony and live his life and be a farmer right now, the lord's talking about building a church establishing his church and so uh.
This makes that link between the book of mormon and the church in joseph's mind so then, fast forward, two months later in may, and the lord speaks again of the prospect in section 10 of establishing his church.
It also appears that sometime, it may be at the end of may peter james and john there's, there's different takes on when the the peter james and john restored.
The keys of the apostleship but uh one convincing take for me is that it happened at the end of may. 00:06:25
So that's not that's not solid, we don't know for sure, but that's likely to have happened in may, which they would have given joseph and oliver. 00:06:32
The keys of the kingdom, the keys of the kingdom, which have now the ability and power to organize a church to establish the kingdom of god on earth. 00:06:42
So now in the following month, in june now they go up to fayette, uh and uh.
Sometime after they move in with the peter whitmer family.
Peter was peter.
Whitmer senior was kind enough to let joseph and oliver move in with the family and uh work on completing the book of mormon translation there and uh. 00:07:00
Can you imagine by the way, can you imagine telling your wife, hey um? Some of my friends are moving in right.
It'll be fine right, my wife would be like, and when do you move out uh at what point do you do you move out with your friends, go, get an apartment right, yeah.
If you've ever been in the in the whitmer home? It's it's not! It's not! Large yeah, it's not a large home, so they're in the peter whitmer home and apparently not a lot of space. 00:07:26
Joseph and oliver end up in what they call father whitmer's chamber, his bedroom, they're in father, whitmer's, bedroom chamber and they're praying they're praying about uh.
What next there's something about this church happening right and and that they get a revelation joseph says - and this is mentioned in section 128 of the doctrine covenants - they hear the voice of god in the chamber of father whitmer, which then instructs them relative to the building Up of the church uh, so it re the lord's voice, included instructions about how to confer the holy ghost about administering the sacrament about ordaining one another elders in the church, and yet they were told to wait, wait and defer your ordination. 00:08:08
The lord said.
Until we can get enough people together, who've already been baptized to sustain you and accept you as their spiritual teachers, which won't happen until the next april.
That's going to be the the day of the organization of the church, but this suffice it to say that uh in june of 1829, the topic of uh establishing the lord's church is squarely on the minds of joseph and oliver, as well as david whitmer.
Now he's getting in on this he's just received section 14 on his behalf, where the lord invited him to participate in the work and now he's like: how do we do this? How do we something about a church? How can we, what should we do now, as they anticipate formally establishing the church joseph asked oliver the most literate of the group to uh to prepare a kind of founding document that would outline the basic beliefs and practices of the church um similar to other formal Documents that other religions uh other other churches had at the time, but oliver had never done that before he's, never written a founding document for a church, he found that to be a very difficult task and so uh discouraged he comes to joseph and says: can we Get a little help and direction here from the lord, and so that's going to be the first question, the lord's going to answer in section 18 verses.
One through five is what to do about this document and then uh after that.
The lord's gon na speak to oliver and david whitmer about how they can help uh establish the church.
That's what's on their mind, and how do we get this document written and uh? How do we go about establishing a church? I think we're seeing a pattern of try something real.
Try then make sure you ask the lord for help where it seems that uh in all a lot of the sections we've covered here, it's the idea of the lord's like no give it your best effort.
Then, when you fail, then come to me uh right, but i really want you to put some for some effort here.
I can't imagine if someone if my friend came to me and said hey: can you throw together some founding documents right? Some we just need to know, and i'd be what like, i would just google founding documents and like what has anybody else done? Uh.
No one yeah has has done this before so you're you're, going to be the first and oliver's like 22 years old. 00:10:26
When i was 22, we won't even discuss.
I mean john - was probably writing founding documents for churches, but the normal.
The normal 22 year old was not didn't.
Oliver go to the book of mormon uh.
Shall we dive in yeah, let's jump in yeah yeah? So so, let's pick it up in verse, one uh, the lord, is addressing oliver's question about the document directly here he says now behold because of the thing which you my servant, oliver cowdery have desire to know of me. 00:10:51
I give unto you these words behold.
I have manifested unto you by my spirit in many instances that the things which you have written are true well, what's oliver been writing well, they're, just wrapping up the book of mormon here oliver has been scribing now for the last well.
He came on april, uh 7th is when they started, so this is now into june.
He's been writing the book of mormon, and the lord says.
The spirit has told you in many instances that the things which you have written are true wherefore.
You know that they are true, now watch this follow up and if you know they're true behold, i give unto you a commandment that you rely upon the things which are written for in them in the book of mormon text. 00:11:34
Are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel and my rock? You want to know how to form a church, oliver cowdery uh, how about go to the text of the book of mormon? You've been writing.
You know it's true now go rely on it, so you're, absolutely right.
Hank from this uh oliver is going to write his his document is going to be called the articles of the church of christ and uh over.
Let's see, i want to say over 60 of that document is direct quotations from the book of mormon uh heavily from third nephi and moroni, where there's kind of instructions where jesus teaches about how to baptize. 00:12:07
Where we get the organization of the 12, where we get the instructions in moroni about how to do the sacrament, where we get instructions about how to ordain teachers and priests and elders, and so this is going to become uh.
Actually, i don't want to go too far into the future, but this is going to become the prelude to section 20.
Actually, uh oliver's document then becomes the next stepping stone.
Tell we get our founding text in section 20.
, so so the lord's guidance here really uh bears fruit. 00:12:38
I really i really like this, and maybe maybe this is just my language but lord.
What should we do um? How about we look at the scriptures? How about we do that? I don't know, i don't know any other ideas out there, but let's, let's go to the scripture, it seems to me that uh, that might be a good answer for a lot of us.
When we go to the lord with questions he might say to us uh, have you tried the scriptures right? Have you looked, you know they're true, have you tried them if you know they're true how about rely on them? I think that's.
That was a funny comment of hugh nibley once that, if you, if you really want to see an angel, if you see one, you know that all he's going to do is quote scripture, so you might as well just read the scriptures because yeah save the angel.
The trouble yeah and i think that uh thank you, scott for saying that about the book of moroni, because i've always thought um.
Moroni 6 is like a mini handbook of instructions.
You know it's got ministering in there and take the role and number everybody and make sure they're praying and and oh church courts.
You know it's all in there and previous to that, how to bless, how to baptize how to ordain um.
So, okay, that's really nice! So he just oh okay! Well i already, i already wrote that i'll go back and find that that's right uh very recently he wrote that right, uh and so yeah.
Now now this is kind of a cool thought too.
That uh dnc 18 makes clear that this church is very much a book of mormon-based church.
How about that? Is it interesting that, when oliver needed help in writing the foundational doctrine, the lord didn't say well, go grab your bible and and see what you need to do now? Instead, he said rely on the book of mormon.
Sometimes we like to talk about how our church is a new testament church right, but it's the book of mormon, where we got the original blueprint for our church.
Now, it's true that we had new testament angels, john, the baptist and peter james and john from the new testament time period that restore priesthood keys.
But it's the book of mormon, where we're going to get the scripture or sorry the structure. 00:14:37
It's from the book of mormon we're going to get the structure, the priesthood offices, the ordinances and the core doctrines of the 1830 church. 00:14:44
Then we're going to build the build out from there.
But that's the original nugget is a book of mormon-based church with new testament keys. 00:14:52
That's interesting because when i was a missionary, it was very much jesus established his church, it fell away and we brought back the new testament church where you're saying yeah.
In a way, we did that, but the book of mormon uh was a big, a big part of this we're bri, where the book of mormon is saying hey. 00:15:12
What do you want to restore here's? Here's everything you need to restore! That's right! It's like a hybrid! It's like a new testament keys of authority with book of mormon structure, ordinances and doctrine see.
This is why we bring experts on john yeah.
This is a great insight of uh oliver, you you've been writing.
This you've been doing this scribe stuff.
What have you been? Writing, oh yeah.
You talk about that.
They did talk about that and i you know i have often had students say well how come the sacrament prayers are written in the you know in the book of moroni and also written in section 20, and it's like yeah well, this helps answer that question.
Oliver went to the book of mormon to learn how to write uh section 20.
is that is that a good way to look at it? Scott, that's right! Well, yeah! So oliver's going to go to the book of mormon create his document.
The articles of the church of christ and then joseph smith's going to take the articles of the church of christ, pray about it, add a bunch of stuff but retain a lot of what oliver was able to cull from the book of mormon. 00:16:12
That's right, wow and john you've written a book on moroni, you just think of moroni thinking of having a church, a group of believers right all together, moroni's going lucky right, he's putting this all down.
Okay, when you all have a big group of believers together. 00:16:29
This is what you need to do don't mind me, i'm all alone, right out here by myself, uh, i just that makes it even a little more special there that that was the one to put it together, maybe yeah that maybe moroni's thinking you know you're gon Na need this in the future, and i had i had always thought of it for all of us, but maybe hey oliver you're gon na need this in the future.
This is how we put things together uh.
This is how their names were taken that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word um.
This is how we bless.
This is how we baptize.
This is how we bless the sacrament.
I mean amazing that he's he's sharing all that and clearly under inspiration.
They're going to need this in the future. 00:17:10
Is it interesting that moroni says that uh he didn't plan on writing the book of moroni he's like well, since i'm not dead yet i know i'm going to put some more stuff in and that becomes the basis for our church in the 1830s amazing.
Aren't we glad he wrote those last chapters? Well, i'm not dead yet like moroni one is like i have not as yet perish.
So i write a few more things for the benefit of my brother in the late nights in some future day. 00:17:34
How different would the book of mormon be without those chapters and i've always thought i don't it's hard to know? Did he know this was common? This was my father's book. 00:17:44
This is was his life's work and he's been killed in battle, and now i've got to do this and i mean if we take him literally, i am alone, he says twice all my kins folk he's got nobody.
He could have been a little bit.
Why did you do this to me, lord uh? I've got nobody but look at what he does to future for future generations. 00:18:03
It's a so i i yeah moroni, not just captain moroni war chapters, but moroni on top of the temples is, is you know heroic to me yeah, and this makes it even makes it even more.
So i always laugh at my uh college students.
I probably shouldn't.
Do that as a professor, but when moroni says my moroni says i have not friends nor wither to go, i'm like hey, he knows your life right.
He has all right.
I was able to get so much homework done. 00:18:29
That's that's! Yeah! That's how you get beautiful things written it's uh! You have not friends nor anywhere to go so yeah.
So then it's gon na shift from okay.
Oliver, you got your marching orders with the document right and then he's going to talk to oliver and david whitmer who's.
Also eager to help somehow, with this uh organization of this church, uh verse, six is key where it says the world is here's the need.
The world is ripening in iniquity, and it must need to be that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance. 00:18:58
Both the gentiles and also the house of israel and then he goes on to say, verse, 9.
Oliver cowdery, i speak unto you and david whitmer. 00:18:44
By way of commandment for behold, i command all men everywhere to repent, and i speak unto you even as unto paul my apostle for you are called even with that same calling with which he was called now.
Oliver and david.
Neither of them are apostles what he means is you are called to do what paul the apostle did, which is what what makes paul unique. 00:19:27
Well paul was the apostle to the gentiles, as well as to the house of israel. 00:19:40
So you are the one who you oliver and david, do what paul did in declaring the gospel, not just to the house of israel but to everybody.
Everybody needs uh to repent, and so this is your marching or you want to help me.
Build a church start crying repentance because the world needs it like crazy and then he gives a rationale for repentance and these are some of the most powerful verses in section 18 and in in my estimation, verses 10 through oh 16, 10 through 16.
, amazing uh.
So here's the question right.
So what should someone remember when you're caught when you're called to invite people to repent? What should you remember right if you're a young missionary, if your parents, if your church leader? What should you remember when calling people to repentance and here's? What the lord says, verse 10, remember that the worth of souls is great in the sight of god.
That's i want you to think about those people.
They are worth saving.
They are worth your best efforts to help them repent and then he gives a a sacred equation.
I, like that phrase, i think it's a stephen harper phrase.
He gives a sacred uh equation in verse, 11 of how much a soul is worth so he's going to say that the worth of each soul is directly proportionate to the price paid to redeem it.
Can we put it like that say that one more time the worth of each soul is directly proportionate to the price paid to redeem it scott that reminds me of of my economics class? What's the value, what is the value of any item? It's what someone is willing to pay for it right? What is someone willing to pay for it? So here's the sacred equation: verse 11 for behold, the lord, your redeemer suffered death in the flesh, wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, so he equates his death in the flesh with the pain or the or the punishment of all men that all men might Repent and come unto him and he had risen again from the dead that he might bring all men unto him on conditions of repentance and how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth, the worth of your soul, was openly announced on calvary? Isn't that powerful? Christ's infinite sacrifice declared your infinite worth. 00:21:47
That's why you should call people to repentance, because if they repent they can access the power of my atoning sacrifice and land their souls in the kingdom of god, which he goes on to talk about verse, 15 and 16.
But wow uh powerful.
It reminds me of uh.
I just got done teaching this a couple of days ago, but when um emma gets done with with korahor and then goes to see the zoramites in alma 31 and he hears the prayer on the ramey umptum and then his his prayer to god is the first Part of his prayer is: how long do we have to behold such gross wickedness and then by the end of his prayer.
One of the last things he says is behold: their souls are precious and many of them are our brethren and you kind of see him soften during the prayer and kind of come to that same message.
Their souls are precious, so he claps his hands on the others laying on his hands, i suppose, and they they go out to preach.
But that's the same motivation.
Their souls are precious.
Let's go um.
Try the virtue of the word of god.
With these zoromites, it seems very similar to the message of jonah.
I like what you said here: scott these people are worth saving.
They are worth saving so as a missionary or as a parent or as a church leader in any role.
The the people in your stewardship, the people in your sunday school class people in your seminary class, your own children right these are these people are worth saving.
They are worth this effort, i think, as i'm hearing you teach scott, i think that would in calling people to repentance.
I can sometimes see me my myself and i don't know if this you two do this, but i can get a little harsh, sometimes um, in calling people the repentance and probably when i get too harsh when i, when i'm getting a little too flippant with it, It's when i've forgotten their worth.
This frames how you approach, calling people to repentance.
Doesn't it this this tempers uh that message in some way uh or at least softens your approach? It's gon na be one of persuasion.
He's gon na talk later in this section about convincing in verse 44 about convincing people, uh you're you're, trying to win them over with persuasion and convincing all your best efforts to help them repent and whatever efforts you can do to to that end.
Jesus loves that he says: that's why i died for them so that they could repent and therefore my joy will be great with them, and your joy will be great with them.
If you can, if you can help people come into my father's kingdom.
That way, i was just marking this before we we met today in verse, 13 verse, 15, verse 16 just underlined the joy joy joy word coming up there.
This is uh uh calling repentance uh, we maybe don't think of as a joyous work, but i, like the the bible.
Dictionary definition of repentance is a fresh view about god about oneself about the world, and i think that was elder.
Holland said in a conference talk was a broken things to mend.
He said that uh repentance is perhaps the most hopeful and encouraging word in the christian vocabulary, and - and so i like that, let's, let's rethink the what repentance means and it ought to be associated with joy and hope we could remove the stigma of repentance. 00:25:11
We would have won a great victory for god's kingdom uh.
We we rejoice in faith when people stand up and share their testimony.
We rejoice in baptism.
We invite everyone to come and watch. 00:25:23
We rejoice when the holy ghost is given right, but repentance is like.
Oh you had to you had to repent.
I am so sorry you know um or whatever right what if we celebrated repentance like we did faith baptism in the holy ghost. 00:25:37
I mean it's part of the same gospel rock.
That comes from the book of mormon.
I mean this is what the lord is saying here: build this church upon my gospel and my rock it's joyful.
This leads to happy things.
It leads to the kingdom of god.
That's nothing to be embarrassed about repentance is for everyone, it is for everyone every day.
It's joyful and it's joyful, and it's joyful in fact the lord says, if you spent every day of your life, doing this every day of your life and you bring one soul to me, it's worth it, it's absolutely worth it and i don't know if i would.
I i don't know, maybe i show my secular worldly side too much in this podcast john, but i don't know if i would think.
Oh that was worth it right.
I spent every day crying repentance and one person listen to me and it might even just be me right.
I might be the one person i convert yeah, i think of uh, i think of a benedi.
In that case, alamo cast was cast out.
The last thing abinadi hears is: go, get alma and kill him and have been it.
I may have thought no.
I i got through to nobody um at that moment, so yeah those are some that had some impact, yeah huge impact been a bit high.
You could trace abinadi's impact through the rest of the entire book of mormon uh, the it goes from you know: alma the elder to elm of the younger to helaman, to helaman to nephi nephi nephi amos amos amiron, mormon moroni.
All the way to the end.
Because of abinadi, can you do that faster? Could you could you please do that a little faster and then from moroni? We got this great text that becomes the foundation for our church, and here we are thanks to, and that goes back to a bit of an alma the elder who a young man who believed what he was saying, how how what joy abinadi could have yeah.
That was one soul right, one single soul, so um i love.
The spirit of this is that people are worth saving and one soul can make all the difference in god's kingdom right just one soul um it's i i kind of think of this as like the.
What did elder maxwell call the economics of heaven right that it's not in cash value here, it's the worth of souls uh that god that caught that god cares about, and i just need to be better.
I don't know about youtube, but i need to be better about seeing everyone as worth saving. 00:28:04
Everyone is worth saving uh because in my judgmental mind and heart i sometimes write people off.
I don't know if, if you guys, i'm sure neither of you have ever nope. 00:28:15
Never done that, never done that so yeah you've got you've, got a problem brother, but i'm going to have joy in my repentance we yeah we'll we'll join too there's a footnote here that i love and that's you know in verse, 13.
How great is his joy in the soul that repenteth and it takes you to luke 15, where we've got these um three stories of lost things being found and the joy in those lost things being found: the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost sons, the prodigal And it starts with um this man receives sinners and eateth with them, and so here jesus gives these three.
Don't you rejoice when you find something that was lost? Isn't that a source of joy? And so i love that footnote there i had to underline. 00:29:05
Look luke 15 lost things, john, i'm going to write that in um.
So when i teach luke 15, i can come back to this section uh because i remember it's the the lost sheep right and and why would you care about one sheep? You have 99 others right, yeah and you've got to count those sheep.
No one looks at 99 sheep and goes where's.
Where's bob right you've got to count them.
You got ta, you got ta, we got ta, look for them and that's part of what you mentioned.
Moroni, giving us in the book of mormon is in our church. 00:29:35
We number people yeah, they are numbered and remembered and nourished by the good word. 00:16:57
I mean that's boy, thank you for giving us that this.
This is why we, minister, we actually take the role we actually take records.
I mean what it's kind of a burden, uh, imagine keeping track of everybody um.
I just wonder, and maybe scott can shed some light on that.
When did joseph smith know no you're supposed to keep records of everything? What did that happen? That was, on the very first day, the very first verse of when the church was organized doctrine and covenants 21 verse 1. 00:30:10
The lord first words out of his mouth.
There shall be a record kept among you first words out of his mouth when the church is organized amazing yeah, and it's he's probably saying like you, you guys you humans are just not great at remembering things.
We are gon na write this stuff down [ Laughter ] as a missionary. 00:23:09
There were some tiring days, um and as a church leader or just a sunday, school teacher or a nursery leader.
These are these are, these, are, you know, sometimes gets tiring, but if you can remember that word remember that what we're doing is important.
The worth of souls is great in the sight of god.
It is worth the effort.
I remember a bishop told me once one of my favorite um uh, one of my favorite bishops.
I've ever met he he he came home from his interviews one day and he told me pulled into the his driveway and turned his car off and he said i'm just going to close my eyes for a second, i'm really tired.
So he said he closed his eyes in his car and he woke up four or five hours later when his wife is knocking on the window.
What are you doing out here and he said? Oh, i just went to close my eyes.
She said it's past midnight.
You know i didn't know you were home.
I was wondering where you were come in.
I've been calling you um and then he said this.
He said i am tired in his work, but i am never tired of his work.
Hmm, oh wow.
I really appreciated that.
Right, i am tired in his work. 00:31:30
Yes, i am tired in his work, but i am not tired of this work because of verse.
The worth of souls - that's a good one to remember, because you know as we're recording this in 2021.
The youth theme is be not weary in well-doing and i thought it's it's yeah there's a lot of things, we're tired of, but don't ever get tired of doing of well doing.
That's a good way to to put it here at byu, idaho, where i am there's uh, the the spencer w kimball building is right next door uh to the taylor, building where i, where i work and there's a display that has president kimball's shoes uh in there And he has this great saying where he says my life is like my shoes right, the soul is worn out in the service of god.
Oh i got ta.
Remember that i got ta.
Remember that the next time i'm a little tired uh got ta, be like president kimball's shoes.
I think joseph smith is gon na end up saying the same thing from liberty jail.
Isn't it uh? Isn't he gon na say we should waste and wear out our lives in god's in god's service? I think that's section 120. 00:32:44
I want to say 123.
um yeah there.
It is verse 13.
We should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things uh uh into bringing to light all the hidden all the hidden things of darkness, so verses 17 through 24, give more details about okay, look.
You have my gospel rock before you and then by that he's, alluding to the book of mormon.
You've got you've got everything.
It takes right to call people to repentance uh and you need revelation verse 18 to do so and don't forget, faith, hope and charity in verse, 19.
Otherwise, you're gon na be you're gon na you're gon na stink.
At this work right, you will uh.
If you don't have that, you have nothing, you can do nothing, you cannot call people to repentance without faith, hope and charity such a cool connection and don't get out there fighting uh other churches, verse.
Don't don't do that! That's the spirit of the age.
Don't participate in that fight against the church of the devil for sure, but the church, other churches.
Christ has a very charitable view toward them and in section 10 - and we talked about that with jb hawes, he has a very charitable view of fellow christians doing their very best to follow.
Christ, don't contend with them, just here's what you should do verse 21, take upon you, the name of christ. 00:33:56
Speak truth in soberness just speak the truth in soberness coded in faith, hope and charity, and as many as repent and are baptized in my name and endure to the end will be saved. 00:34:05
My name is the name.
If they have that name, they are allowed entrance into the kingdom of god.
He goes on to say and then a big announcement of a sudden, verse, 26 and now behold there are others who are called to declare my gospel, both unto gentile and unto jew like like paul, did uh, and then he numbers in verse, 27.
There will be twelve and the twelve shall be my disciples. 00:34:32
They will take upon them, my name and the twelve are they who shall desire to take upon my name with full purpose of heart, and if they do that, then they are called verse.
Twenty eight to preach my gospel to every creature.
This is the beginning.
It's our first uh inclination, first indication that there will be a quorum of the twelve.
He calls them disciples a book of mormon word: that's a book of mormon, where there's gon na be 12 disciples.
Oliver uh and joseph would have just translated that a few weeks ago about third nephi, where the 12 disciples were called by jesus and now he says we're going to do that.
Again, you see book of mormon based church here we're going to do that again and they're going to be the ones who will and then he gives their duties and those are the duties the disciples were given in the book of mormon baptized in verse, 29 uh Ordain others verse 20, let's see 32 to ordain priests and teachers and to uh. 00:35:27
Let's see uh yeah, that's it so ordained priests, teachers, uh baptize, and do that according to the gifts and callings of god with you.
So we're gon na do book of mormon disciples again, that's what we're gon na do 12 of them now in 1835, when this actually comes to pass uh joseph is now calling them 12 apostles so that that that connection uh is made concretely in 1835.
So uh that's exciting right! It's not just going to be on your shoulders at oliver and david to declare repentance i'm going to get 12 other disciples to help with this and that's how this church is going to be built. 00:36:03
Wow scott, i i had.
I had not realized how book of mormon based the church is until we're going through section 18 and you're, pointing this out.
That's book of mormon, that's book of mormon, that's book of mormon uh and i bet it's going to happen in section 20. 00:36:19
Isn't it when we read section 20 we're going to go? Oh wow they're, getting all this from the book of mormon.
So now the book of mormon's almost ready to complete.
Let's go guys.
We now we have.
We have something in place.
We can move forward.
I also love how patient the lord is laying this out right because he is mentions the 12 here, but we actually don't get a quorum of the 12 until when 18 february 14th valentine's day.
It's the way, god tells us he loves us is he gives us a quorum of the 12 uh on 14th of february 1835. 00:36:48
So this is what five and a half years six years before that he's kind of just given the bits and pieces he seems to do this with joseph a lot.
I'm gon na give you a little bit we're gon na.
Let that simmer, i'm gon na leave.
You a little bit line up online, that's right! So patient! If you know i can picture me joseph's in the sacred grove and i'm going okay, you got to get personal progress, ready, uh, but then we're going to get rid of that and we're going to replace that with a new program. 00:37:16
There's got to be barcodes on the temple recommends.
Remember that um and you know instead he's like: let's go nice and slow here.
It teaches me a little bit about parenting and teaching. 00:37:25
Let's go just give you a little, let that you know i want you to be good at this right.
I like how you said that if you don't have faith open charity, you're really gon na stink at this work right without that.
So will you just work on that for a little while um and yes, we're gon na have 12 apostles in a couple of years? In six or so years, uh, what does the? What do the quorum of the 12 have to do with david and oliver yeah? So then the lord another surprise in this section is: he tells them in verse.
Now, behold i give unto you oliver cowdery and also david whitmer, that you you two shall search out the twelve who shall have the desires of which i have spoken.
I would like you to be our search committee uh to find the twelve disciples, and oliver is going to say that from from that moment, until february 14th 1835, he says our minds, meaning him and david.
Our minds have been on a constant stretch to find who these 12 were. 00:38:31
So it was a five plus year process for him to say: okay, every time someone joins the church david and oliver get together.
What do you think? What do you think? I feel good about him.
What's his name brigham! Oh, i like him.
Let's uh, let's put him on our list.
He's got spunk yeah, that's right! Well, i'm i'm struck with this idea that in verse 26 there are others who are called it's kind of like.
I know who they are now you guys go, find them um and it almost kind of hints of a pre-mortal fortination thing.
Oh there's others there there are he's.
That's past tense, they're already called now your job, oliver david, go, go, find him and you'll know them.
What does he say that by their desires and their works, you shall know them and obviously some inspiration but uh, that's interesting to me, yeah and then then, and he tells them when you find them.
I want you to give them this section.
Have them read section 18.
: this is the apostolic charge.
Their job will be to call people to repentance and they're going to need to have these instructions of how to do that, and i mean it's just so good and read: have them read this and then verse? 40, here's his directions, his instructions directly to them fall down and worship the father in my name and go preach, preach unto the world and say you must repent and be baptized in the name of jesus christ. 00:39:53
Everyone needs this go convince, go, persuade right.
This is verse 44 of the promise and by your hands i will work a marvelous work among the children of men unto the convincing of many of their sins that they may come unto repentance and that they may come unto the kingdom of my father.
So a great assurance there, and so oliver and david will hand this by the way martin harris gets added to this group right as after the three witnesses happen shortly after section 18 uh, he will be added to this list of the search committee and uh, and So uh actually kind of cool story.
That happens then, on the 14th of february 1835 joseph smith stands up and says to a group of those who had been to zion's camp.
He says to them.
Our first business of this meeting is for the three witnesses of the book of mormon to pray each one of them and then to proceed to choose 12 men from the church as apostles to go to all nations, kindreds tongues and people.
At that point, the three witnesses unite in prayer.
Then they were given a blessing by the first presidency.
The three witnesses were - and it's at that point where they proceeded - to make choice of the twelve right in that meeting.
So, oh wow man, this is six years in the making.
This has got to be a big day right, i'm excited when we get there.
We have uh, we have a a lot of sections between now and then that's what's amazing to me is you know, we're not even close to there.
What are we, where are we even going to get to when we get to 1835? We're in the you know, sections i'm looking at like one 110 right just before 110.
, i mean this is a long ways away and he's already making plans for it. 00:41:37
The lord is man, the lord is good about planning ahead and thinking ahead.
You know when you said that that i'm gon na work a marvelous work by your hands um.
I think of you, know every general conference when we hear from our apostles.
I i feel like section or verse, 44 fits it's a marvelous thing and it convinces many of their sins.
I know of one thing: that's going to happen.
Every time i sit down to watch general conference is i'm going to be i'm going to be repenting right and it's a joyful thing as we talked about earlier.
But i know that when elder holland stands up or elder anderson or or elder updorf or uh, and it's gon na strike me at the heart and go man, i've got ta, i'm gon na i've got ta, do better and it seems like uh.
The lord is kind of previewing that uh that by the apostles, it's gon na be a marvelous work and i think anybody who's listened and had a general conference.
Talk strike them to the core is probably feeling the power of section 18 there, and it's not it's that kind of thing that builds the church, that's the rock upon which this is built, and i mean i, i dozens and dozens of times have been pricked in My heart, because of what an apostle has taught or their testimony given and uh, thank god for that. 00:42:59
Where would i be if i didn't have apostles to convince me of my sins right in their kind persuasive way? I am.
I am grateful to the core.
I feel like that they have this section in mind as they give their general conversation. 00:43:13
I'm just you know i i can tell that they love, they have faith, hope and charity.
They see the worth of souls as great in the sight of god uh, but they don't shrink back from calling people to repent and keep the commandments man so great. 00:43:27
I think two things come to mind.
President eyring said once henry b eyring that do not be surprised uh, when you feel the spirit, if it's accompanied by what you feel is a rebuke, and i feel that at general conference i'm fired up and i want to repent at the same time and then Elder neal maxwell said once when conscience calls to us from the next ridge.
It is not solely to scold but also to beckon, and when i share that with teenagers.
For those of you watching on video, i do this is the the this is the scolding symbol.
Uh, when conscience calls to us from the next ridge is not solely to scold, but also to beckon to say, come up a little higher and uh, which is a joyous invitation, love that yeah, i'm really just overwhelmed here.
With with what i've seen in section 18.
, the the atonement which we're going to learn about in the next section was such an individual experience that you can almost just feel it jumping off the page. 00:44:36
The savior's love for each individual he's still a one by one savior as we learn about in the book of mormon scott.
I i love this idea and i think um our listeners might want to hear more verse.
20 contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil which tells us there are churches out there, which are not the church of the devil, and the book of mormon is kind of a very if it had a personality.
It's very this or this.
It's very black and white, and it has you know: nephi's vision of lehi's dream when he says they're saved two churches, only the church of the lamb of god and the church of the devil and uh. 00:45:15
I my students bristle at that - and i bristle at that, because - and this helps us help soften that and illuminates that idea um.
I know that steven robinson would say it's more about those who love light more than darkness um.
Could you comment some more on because they didn't hadn't even organized the church? Yet right, that's a great question, john.
Actually, i i teach world religions here at byu, idaho, i'm passionate about this.
Our goal is to see the good and the true and the beautiful in other religions and there's just so much goodness out there.
The lord acknowledges it here in section 10 elsewhere.
I know there was a first presidency statement that was read uh with jb hawes uh.
Go check that uh episode out.
If you haven't read that it's so good, but here's another one uh.
President oaks actually came here to byu idaho in 2014 and he commented about the two churches verse in uh in verse, nephi 14, 10, and he he says this.
He says nephi was told by revelation that there were only two churches, the church of the lamb of god and the church of the devil.
He says this description suggests the contrast between those who believe in god and seek to serve him according to their best understanding and those who reject the existence of god, and so i think, the church of the lamb of god.
According to president oaks definition, there is large that includes so many that includes roman catholics and muslims and hindus and buddhists and methodists and presbyterians, and the the church of the lamb of god is large.
Those who are trying to to serve god according to their best understanding jesus says, don't contend against them right, that's don't fight, just faith, hope and charity and uh speak the truth in in soberness, and some of them will join this church. 00:47:06
Oh, i can't tell you how much i love this.
I i'm all for the idea of if we've got energy to fight something, let's fight something evil right, um no kidding, are we going after each other or you know the the like.
You said the catholic man in my neighborhood, or why am i? Why am i on my mission? We call it bible bashing, i don't know if they they still call it that.
Why am i doing that because there's an actual enemy out there, let's fight him yeah.
Let's fight him right: let's fight uh, let's fight evil, let's, let's fight against pornography, let's fight against human trafficking, let's, let's fight against evil.
Instead of i see why the lord is saying almost like: don't don't don't put your energy there put it over here! There's a bigger fight going on over here. 00:47:56
Please join us for part two of this podcast .