Transcription: The Supermind, Divine Body and Enlightenment - Michael Murphy and Ken Wilber - YouTube

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00:00:00
Hello, Mike Murphy, this is Ken Wilber, my god, what an event for me.

How are you well, I'm hanging in there buddy good you sound good, yeah working away, well, workaholic anonymous! I was just looking you just saved me from going through the bylaws of Esalen Institute.

00:00:27
We're redoing them.
You know.

Yes, I know.
Oh, my god.
The language it's evolved to this language is unbelievable.

Wow anyway we're reading into it.
You know because we're rethinking as when, from top to bottom I mean our staff structure.
That's 11! The governance of the Institute.

Just outgoing well, it's you know it's um, it's very close them and good.
We um, you know the sins of the fathers are constellations Network dinner, a cosmic karma.
That's that has been that's what lawyers are for, but anyway it's been quite an exercise.


00:01:01
At the same time, we're moving ahead with our capital campaign and with our long term development plan, and the thing is getting interesting in many respects, but I have to Ken as always, keep you know enough distance so that I could work on the things.
I really love like getting to talk to you this morning.
Well and huge to the body I mean you're working on that you've got right.

You know that all the continuing stuff with meta normal super normal powers right so where, where are you in the midst of that? What's an update? Well, I'm you know Mitch Horowitz as far as proposed that I do this revision right and I mean it's essentially a done deal.

00:01:45
Jan heineman.
Well, I don't know, but I mean the longest I'd work on.

It is two years yeah but cause uh.
This will be the last big book.
I write.

Obviously - and I don't know - that's obvious: well, might you know the f-type there's a part of me? You know I'm teaching this meditation class now and then I fall in love with it, and this been going on for seven and I still enjoy sharing this with people and out of it you know my own.
I don't know it's great and what might remember it's not we're not given a certain number of years to live, we're given a certain number of orgasms and given that you didn't really start your orgasmic life yeah until quite late in the game.
That's right.

I think you've got these three or four more decades to go now iris, so you can't rule out another big book down the line.
Now I understand that when the old man like you and me increasingly like to spend our time in the sacramental domain and so right thing becomes an increasing chart, so you see your medical, remember, you're, I'm old enough to be your father.
You know, I can't read it fast as you write, but nevertheless I do limp along here and get quite excited about these things.

You send me, and you know I've got it opened here in front of me now.
I've escaped from the bylaws and your peace under subtle energies, and you know I do have some questions and suggestions.
Let's do it.

Okay, first of all, this whole conceptualization that you're doing with it's a body mind all the way up and all the way down.
So you get to Shunyata, you know, yes, that is, you know.
Can i I think that is a well it's a very, very important move and you know it's insisted in these other systems, but not spelled out and it to me.

It shows again why your system here is all quadrants all lines, etc is so useful.
It just makes it crystal clear and clearer than any other team this around, so I say fantastic and I want to bring it forth in our conference on the empirical evidence for survival.
Bodily dad died.

So that's by way of the general comment.

00:04:16
Secondly, I'm you know: have you ever taken a look at Portland's, big vayan thing called Pokemon attack.
It was brought out in America by quest and in English they translated it of vehicles of consciousness, the concept of highly pluralism from the from Aristotle of matter Hilah and there's nothing like it to my knowledge and I've drawn heavily on it and the presented over the Last couple years to this conference at Ephraim, as we start to try to now look at all this data that continues to pile up about survival of whatever it is, writer buys, and so we've used this now.

What Portman does in their can is divine.
What first of all he goes back into shamanism all the way through the Vedas and up to modern times and carries it into 20th century figures? It's enormous survey in these four volumes and he classifies the different philosophic positions that have been taken through history of into six.
He has six positions which he calls the um.

He gives.
The Greek letters to you know the beta position of the gamma, the delta, epsilon, etcetera and boy.
That's why it's just a recommendation and if you were to take a look at that, it would add to what you've done yeah now he is he's dividing the philosophies based on their relation to subtle energies and the vehicles of consciousness or yes, he's giving an anatomy Of the vehicles no, no, this is a.

This is a classification of the various basic ways of seeing it now the positions that are closest to you and to me, I would say I think, to where we are, would be in the two positions he called the gamma and Delta position.
The you know, the Alpha stand point is a strictly black lab.
You okay, but the theta stand point which I didn't wasn't aware of people like Thomas Hobbes and others who believed there was a second form of matter, but they considered themselves strict material and many still it were like that yeah and then the data standpoint.

I think, if I remember this right, is it strict idealism: yeah that says that really adult subjectivity right and no exterior classic Berkeley, yeah and the gamma and Delta standpoint would be very much like the scheme that you lay out run the difference between those two is: How they handled the okema should yacht does right.
One thing that it is forever beyond any, and you cannot say anything whatsoever about it.
The other one says that the ultimate itself can be conceived to have a can be said of the ultimate that it does possess.

A degree of materiality yeah I mean that that would be the difference, but in any case those two viewpoints are were virtually all yeah, the great mystics phone yeah.
When you look at them it's interesting yeah.
It doesn't surprise me and most of the mystics.

Actually, if I understand your gamma and Delta summary correctly, most of the great mystics agree with both of those.
In other words, they they all sort of postulate near Kuna Brahmin.

00:07:41
That is strictly without qualities.

Writing that one, but they also have a version of saguna brahman.
They being consciousness bliss and has a degree of materiality to write, are where, where you and I operate right and again, one of the things that I'm kind of doing with this whole volume, two in the cosmos, trilogy of which subtle energies is one of the chapters.
But part of the whole approach with this is saying that, given these sort of fundamental perspectives or indigenous perspectives that are available to all sentient beings, that there is a perspective in the cosmos from which each of the positions that he's outlining makes sense.


00:08:26
So and that's what's interesting, because the sort of the whole point about this is that you know you wan na, obviously as integral and as comprehensive of you as you can take.
But the position is that no sentient being is capable of 100 percent error.
So if you stand at one position at one level of consciousness and look at one perspective, you'll see empiricism and if you stand in another position, you'll see what Hobbes was talking about.


00:08:52
If you stand in another position, you'll see what Berkeley was talking about so on.
So that's what that to me is kind of interesting about the whole summation of indigenous perspectives that are available and obviously what we're trying to do is have a more inclusive one, whom also includes gamma and Delta positions, yeah.
Well, once you leave it alone, if you were to follow Portman or acknowledge him or you know, do some summary, then you could use the all quadrants.

All the INA thing you to do just what you've just done yeah, in other words, to say.
Okay, each of these representatives and the thousands of representatives of these six decisions are all you know: they're, they don't have an adequate overview, although the Gamma Delta guys well, they didn't either.
I mean they.

Yes, you know they they for the most part, they did not have the post, modern cultural, contextual address.
That's the thing and that's what we're you know and, and so whatever integral today is, will be one of the physicians that subsumed tomorrow, yeah yeah, yes, conceivably.
That's true, i well that that you know, I think there are some along resting-place, think that you do get to places where, okay, that essential job is done, and I think it may be the case, can that where you've gotten with this is around one line, is A resting place for a long while because in other words, you're not going to get past these kinds of statements that you're making here just as you're, not going to get past patina to statement ever that Kohan, the one is not the number one.

Yes, in other words, the essential move you make and this all quadrant all understood, aqwal is kind of a interesting place.
We just stood plateau right now.
Well it the very least.

Is that, but the essential point that to bring in these various ways of knowing and to see them is all complimentary and necessary yeah.
Absolutely I hope so for me.
What it means is it's at the very least, it's kind of a it's.

It's a breathing space, in other words, what's interesting to me, right now is to say well, let's just assume that aqua is a pretty good overview of what's going on a pretty good foundation to move forward on and now what's exciting is actually to take it out To start applying in the real world ya know, because that's where you start to see these enormous sorts of benefits.
Well, that's and now that's what they just rounded the subtle energies and, of course again, that's right where I'm living with my words - and this thing is so useful and helpful - I mean it, it really is so I was naturally very excited when I read it and You know partly can its simply having big enough colleague.
She appear to talk about this stuff adequately and it's what I think a lot of us so often it that we're having to talk to people who don't know about an awful lot of stuff.

You know how do you handle that personally I mean I don't know how many times I've said to people.
Look, I really why don't you just read these two or three books and get back to me.
I mean I don't know how else to say it because they're arguing something they just don't have enough information about it, information it's already available and people pretty much right, yeah right, you know, and and and this is another I mean it sounds self-serving, but the people That relate to my work are the people that are basically as well read as I am, and thank you that that's a small crew, but are people like you and it's people like Roger Walsh? It's people that have really really done this kind of work and they read this stuff and it resonates because they know I'm not making it up.

They know I'm not pulling it out of the sky and basically taking as much really carefully grounded research, information and sort of saying that all the stuff has to be taken really seriously.

00:12:52
So we have to really put all this stuff on the table and, frankly, a lot of theorists out there.
Just aren't putting enough stuff on the table.

Yes, amen, amen and it's just a nightmare having to kind of go.
You know a lot against that stuff Mike because they come back at you with kind of bumper sticker slogans and t-shirt philosophies right.
They sound like they make sense, but they're really just a mess of right now.

Well so so I just think.
The only way is to just to plow forward with our work, and I take great delight when we find some colleagues, okay, so well anyway, can i I had some specifics here sure.
First of all, you know I sent this to you these.

A couple of these are small, relatively small points, but aravind.
Oh, he was very clear that super mine is hardly at emanation.
It yeah.

Now it's what he called knowledge by identity, this instant for mind, but these are forms and boy, the more you read it yes.
can the mortgage like book, kindnesses news, yes and super yes, and so hence the one and ever China's the non-dual.
It would be the most.

The closest to such a ton, I agree, I agree, you know, there's a simple way, a simple, direct phenomenological way to anchor a lot of these terms, and that really is by returning to the major states of consciousness that we postmodern still have that are quite similar And realized whatever else they were doing, they were anchoring a lot of these interpretations in these very, very real, very, very unmistakable states of consciousness and the three main states.

00:14:32
Of course, we're waking dreaming in deep sleep and there's no question but that Vedanta far beyond and many others in a sort of overall scheme identified waking with gross sleeping with subtle and deep sleep with causal.
But they have two other states that are equally important and the fourth of course, is famous and that's Toria and Turia is explicitly defined.

Is that which witnesses all states yeah so Atman or pure witnesses that which witnesses waking and witnesses dream yeah witnesses deep sleep.
So the dinners of fear and Estrella kita - and that is the union of the empty witness with all forms that are arising, that's one case or Samaj.
So those are the actual five sort of main realms that we're looking at and for Platonists and for or Bindo Tori Akita is the one or such an Ananda.


00:15:31
Okay, he emphasized the fact, but he called universalizing consciousness at different levels right and then he described how these realizations came to him but ingenuous yoga.
That's what you tried to do right, so what I think a lot of people would call three Akita.
Yes, that you got a first hold of it as it were on the ladder up, but if it has the realization of Korea T that in that sense, according to our kendo, without having realized super mind and so her Satchidananda located on those five states.

Well, us back to the nonde is a is a descriptor term right right.
This is his descriptor of the ultimate yeah.
Now our Dindo was not at all influenced by Buddhism, anywhere and yeah and nor by Shankara.

Yes, he was profoundly rooted in Upanishads and in evolutionary theory and his own evolving experience, and I think he was probably secretly influenced to some extent by the octopus.
I think we have to be ready to deconstruct every one of these philosophers.
Metaphysics, as you are saying here, is post metaphysical and they themselves were trying to world patina saara Bindo, all of them each in their own way, was reconciling this depth of experience with these various philosophic formulation, life right and they were mapping them all dirt.

Enormous similarities and that's what gives us great hope we're on the right track, but there were some significant differences.

00:17:13
No, I think where the Buddhists lakhs is precisely in the kind of stuff that Aravind was getting act with super much yeah yeah, but but now Ackman brahma victorious Korea, CEO, Jo ara Pinto, knew where of he spoke yeah I mean, as did Ramana Maharshi.
Yes, but I would argue that Rama to Maharshi has never heard of the super mind and would be agnostic about yeah, see I'm saying yes and s so, and so, when you lead again as his descriptions of Superman ad now, as he said, he only touched into It at times and was trying to enter into his learn more yeah world, though, had not yet evolved into it.

Yet now the closest I've seen that I have discovered our patinas descriptions of news, but, okay, it is where the light and the glory is evident at all time and where the identity with others, did the parents all now.
That, of course, would be the same as Korea.
He said.

Well, there's a part of it.
It's like Toria, keep there yeah yeah, but but the effective power of it is radically beyond any known anything that yet appeared on earth yeah to transform not only the the vital realms but but matter itself, yeah matter yeah and those.
Obviously, we haven't seen it and he added it said if it came in to play for brief moments, yeah, why? I think if you don't want to need to use super mind why, in collecting my data, I would argue that there are moments in the line for all sorts of people, some of them not mystic, some of them athletes, some of them other folks, untuck in to A transformative power in which for a moment matter, is completely responsive to it.

Yes, and - and it has this sense, but it doesn't last yes, there's some, and so it therefore appears miraculous right, okay, but there.
On the other hand, there are people who I believe, who have think Ramadan Maharshi, who I don't think anyone would argue that this guy I mean he glows in the dark.

00:19:36
He lives in certainly Korea.

But you know with serious heat.
I thought we could argue, but he lives in this extraordinary realization, but he did not know about this stuff yep.
So I would say yes now harness chattery.

He and I used to talk about this.
This is back when I was 20 21 and he says, like you, can realize, that's my Brahman and then I went to him, one that not realizing for mine.
That's what he's gon na say right, yes, and so that that was ours into a strong claim that this is something that's emergent.

Let me evolution here.
Let me tell you what I think might be going on, because this is we've all wrestle with this, as we kind of wrestle with or vindow um.
Well, as we wrestle with any of these great right forebearers, I mean we're all you know, standing within, thankfully, within their shadows and by the way can there's more to say about super mind that the fight, what I did say well, we will come back to them On there me just give you another way to start thinking about: okay, okay, one of the things that that is striking when you read that's also true and in some other sages particular that the later topic sages, but certainly horrabin, though, is just, as you said when You read some of the descriptions of super mind they're parts of it that are very similar to Tori Okita, and there are parts of it that are different, and one of the things that I try to do in a certain sense is follow, Occam's razor and not Postulate more metaphysical entities that are necessary to eight of them, Oh amen and that's great, and so I think it's at least possible.

That much happens if you actually look at an aqua unfolding of history and if you look at various states of consciousness and various stages of consciousness at different epochs, that one of the things that is sort of hard to miss is and I'll give you an example.
First and that's the state of nirvikalpa or the state of formless absorption right that clearly has existed for up bunny shot.
It took me several thousand years old, but and and in a certain way, if you come out of that state of formless awareness, which is just vast emptiness, vast Nirvana, that formless being, if you will the world that you confront when you come out of that unmanifest Domain yeah changes over evolutionary time, oh yeah.

Now so also, you can have an experience, a general generic experience of saw Hodge or non-dual, because you can have this experience of formlessness and they're also cases going back at least a couple thousand years of people being having experience that emptiness also experience a union of Emptiness and form: well, that's in your partnership anyway.
So here's here's what I think tends to happen.
Those states like that that in part are tapping into the formless infinite emptiness.

That's always a component of ultimate being that teri Okita, for example, is itself going to have different content on its form side.
As for yourself, devolves yeah and I think super mine is part.
It is a manifestation of Teresita, as the conventional realm itself gets more and more and more and more transparent, absolutely the whole.

You are okay, the world is evolving and the world is implicitly divine, and the aspects of this divinity emerged over time in this beyond dream.
In turn, this way at the supreme adventure in the human realm of consciousness, three akita emerges at some point in history.
We can argue about when that point was.

I happen to believe that certain shamans it came to them with overwhelming power, these sorts of realizations, but it didn't get stabilized.
I think that least to our knowledge.
Until perhaps the time of the apana shots, I mean at least they're the oldest continuous record of this realization, and I agree - and I think there was a real flowering of again came to fruition with the great laws of Tantra which particularly occurred in India and Tibet.


00:23:59
From the 8th to the 11th centuries ad, there was a point in history that had which this consciousness, a God, stabilized to an extent that it was passed along, and then I would argue that these sages of the Rama, no maharshi's of the day, you know yeah.
Ok, but back is still not what our vendo meant by super mice now, for example, in the district, this power to transform matter itself is only one feature of super mind and other is - and this is a curious connection between ours, Angela Titus, that nobody has really Pointed out sufficiently, I believe that Duncan Bazemore got his PhD on the doctrine is love for mine, but and then he had stepped on his master's around with China.
So he and I discussed it at some length, but China said the one thing that he brought in different from Plato.

His master was that the soul resided in this, alongside all the arts - ok, Aravind, Oh believed that the chunk of Purusha that, in other words the involutions, was not a single presence or we talked about the divine you could say and what I'm saying if it was An involution of the soul yeah now the souls are beyond number, I mean, there's their countless yeah, okay and so the evolution of the souls in super mind.
The soul recognize what the gain is from the beginning and they come into their own.

00:25:30
So to speak.

Now he saw his own psychology, he named it, the chassis of Purusha and the change of Purusha is evolving and it's not the body's.
You know the vital body, the mental body of the different coaches, the coaches are the limbs and organs, the evolving limbs and organs of this evolving check of Purusha life.
Now the china Purusha is the twin, and he referred to this line, which is actually canyon.

The big data, and then it comes down to the into three or four of the different punish us, the two two comrades, friends and comrades, two birds on those three of the world.
Wasn't the sweet fruit and one he's not.
He has plated the one that eats not with hot month, which is mom, honey, yes, and the one that eats the food is the evolving tried to Purusha.

This is a what filmin would call the souls coat.

00:26:23
This is the diamond and working up, and this is what makes ken wilber of what ken wilber.
What makes Mike Murphy Mike Murphy started out in super mind, this all lights up with a kind of get the threshold where this ball becomes apparent.

Now a lot of the people who have realized Korea, pizza, was Buddhist and had over a big internalized doctrine of anaka yeah, and I met them here and I would say they have other some of them here: Marin County.
We have quite a bit of experience and they say there is no soldiers, no reincarnation, and it said with the dogmatic finality all right.
I just that's.

That's ridiculous see, that's not that's not they're, not representing, she know so well, and I mean just from the Buddhist point of view the strict mad yarmulke view, there's a huge amount of cert reincarnation.
Neither can you deny we they're caught in a very bad interpretation of Muhammad of attractiveness.
That's what a lot of Americans Buddhists do well Guardian, pretty well put the Kuti rod of these people.

I mean you know he was this concern with meditation at it.
I mean you know the guard, you know I think was so yes, but all I'm saying is that our bindle is made a very powerful claim that I take seriously.
I anyway, that's all I'm saying I mean I think all that is yeah.

I agree with everything.
You're saying I'm just suggesting that the Buddhists, for example, that have it have an experience of TRAI and charketa that doesn't exhaust those realms just the fact that they have a particular experience, absolutely not it, but it exhaust their development for a while if they get too Attached to their metaphysics, they correct the interpretations themselves, are a large part of what opens up or closes amen brother, the potentialities that's like, and again I come back into the extreme usefulness of your team here, which is out of great antidote, a vaccination against these foreclosures.

00:28:24
Well, in mark here's the a lot, thank you on that and it did the little sort of extra thing.

I was saying in terms of getting a little bit of a grip on what Aurobindo might have been doing, and I think where bender would sort of somewhat agree with this himself, because he was such a profound evolutionist, but that, as evolution itself continues.
Yeah then, in the gross material manifest conventional world itself, there's a certain increasing transparency, even among the average citizen.
If you will of matter itself becomes lighter and lighter, I mean we move it around much more faster, much more easily.

We live in an electronic age where a large part of matter itself is kind of be materializing and it as the whole material realm itself becomes increasingly more transparent.
Then, in the past, experiences such as Korea and Troya Tita could not penetrate much farther into the material realm, but today and in succeeding generations, similar types of experiences are much more resonant.
The world has changed and a true experience of teri Okita today carries an embrace and the radiance into matter that it couldn't have even even four or five hundred years ago.


00:29:41
Well, that's you know.
He may well have said that, and I mean he would go along with that, but you know, but we're still not getting that what he meant by super much well.
But what I'm saying is that that actually is a part of what's happened.

The reason that he said super never existed before that the reason that it hasn't had a conscious, transparent, realization on a widespread scale before right, it's just that the did evolution itself on the average had to get up to a level that way.
Yes, oh absolutely, yes, and that's essentially that, but all I'm saying here there's a note that that's absolutely all I'm trying to point here is that the it's important I think for us to see that this period he does the non-dual there's a stabilize itself.

00:30:28
In the wisdom, traditions before the kind of thing II meant by super mine, now, why Greece that's fine yeah? I think, though, the human race hasn't grown into this.

I guess right, and neither is the human race embraced the divinization of of embodiment that or let's call it this.

00:30:51
This further reaches of embodiment that well, that is, is basically a heretical notion, although I am finding out more and more and that it's been lurking in the wing.
But what do you think about the rainbow body? That's what I mean these phenomena like that, the the Christians of glorified Weiser, its kind of been lurking in the wings, but the the dominant we needed Foucault in here that there's funky but dominant members of the society said.

This is a sideshow, and I get to the point you are been doing.
This is my life.
Work is really, it is not a sideshow.

This is part of what the world intends, namely the involvement of divinity in all our parts, and it's not an escape from the world.
I mean you've been getting this thing that, but this is again is emergent, how it's been trying to emerge, but we have not had an adequate philosophy, an adequate epistemology, let alone an adequate realization or practice, and we've got to get a bigger framework.
This is why I get excited by your work.

It's opening this thing up and saying the hell with you guys who want to foreclose premature inhalation.
You know I it's really striking to me too, that just an even very broad terms, but they call it non dual or integral or holistic or whatever the terms are even even talker in a certain sense, and I'm continue to be struck by how strong, both the Merely ascending impulse is, that's dominated really, certainly a lot of mainstream spirituality, both E and less right, but since the axial age right and then the counter blast.
So to speak, which is a merely defended.

Nearly materialistic worldview going to have the mirror senders.
The ones who you know want to get into Nirvana and shun stamps are because flashlight world and sex is all sinful, etcetera, etcetera and that ascending ideal, as you know, is you can find it in everything from Patanjali Yoga Sutras to the dominant ascending goal of the Church in the West for at least fourteen hundred years, and then you have the counter blast, the mirror of the sender's the materialists, whether they're, Kagan, materialists or scientific materialists, are the ones who believe only in this ansari motor world and where i believe in any sort Of transcendental ideal and then the third, which even vaguely attempted to get the two of those together any sort of non dual impulse, whether it's teri, Okita or todd trick, or the glorified flesh and christianity or rainbow body in tibet and so on.
Those have always been the extreme minority movements right within a lot of these things, and so that's and is what's so interesting is, is a huge, well read your impact, those other fragmented, ascenders and descenders.

Well, you know our bid, those start to like divine chapter two or the two legations, the phrase that chapter two: the materials denial in Chapter: three, the refusal of the ascetic saflan and but you know, there's a double oo exclusion.
I say in this.
Can in this sense is that first, you have the two contradictory impulses.

The non-dual was in the minority, yes, but we have a further thing.
What i want to call the evolutionary lon do understand and it's what you represent visit, and that includes a lot that we started aside in the realm of city's tourism and ordinance, etcetera, that these are the limbs and organs were emerging, super nature and they're not to Be regarded merely as sideshows, i mean a lot of den geysers call, it's all Macchio know or you get you know most of the first it he had some, it's a pretty ruthless exclusion there and what we need is this integral view that says look folks.
This is uh.

These things are here for a reason, this is the desaad is waking up.
You know I'm moving forward in the research and my thought, but before I commit to torture to do the revision, I'm going to get the thing up.
You know on a disk and just start in and see yet if I really have the stamina to do this, a big job right, but I'm going to do a little of it without signing the contract or without any kind of advance, because I don't want to Nail myself down until I see that I really have the stamina to do it.

I can't tell you how strong the EM tide is in me to just be.
You know, I've got that, and I've got to get many projects Deathlands really in the middle of this big Reformation, it's very promising but difficult, etc.
So that's where I stand, but I must say, and I everyday I am pursuing the various leads.


00:35:51
So it's very alive I mean the whole thing is very alive and that's what I hope we might talk a little bit about today, for example.
I would like to present this catalog of cities, Catholic tourism Chamonix and all to show these striking cross-cultural correspondence between the supernormal powers that emerged in transformative practice, and I guess but but I deeply deeply appreciate and I'm excited by what I think you're getting at and In fact, I did have the thought that it might be fun if you and I did a dialogue, I mean we could even do it for Andrew Cohen's magazine on this thing that I'm really keen to talk to you about in terms of the real property of Projections of where we go from here developmentally once you fully embrace this integral vision, and I've done a little preliminary inventory of what's out there in the world and it's interesting.
How little is there yeah it's kind of stunning, and so I've had that sought positions first, responders gee, I'd love to do something with you at the very least, to kind of you know, keep discussing this material and flesh it out and all right what was out There, incidentally, when you, when you surveyed the field, but ajosh, you see okay, now, here, first of all, as a preface to this, you know every one of my books has been kind of centered.

In the same, what you know the nature of evolution after enlightenment I'll? Let you scream it that way and I was oriented to that, of course by our abundant, but so in golf in the kingdom.
You know I didn't publish the book till I was 40, you know yes in there you know.
You've got Shiva's irons going into a trance and then saying, but the real thing is the trips down: there's the trip up and the trip down in it, etc, and then I took it on more explicitly in Jacob a Tibet and the wording there.

You know the one is our base camp for all further adventure and this character, darwin's fall actually has got up a book under way, which was essentially an outline for the future of the body right, but it was another 20 15 years this work I wrote it, But in any case, that's where I come from conceptually, but I really not can taken seriously the fact about this poverty of visions about this.
Now it's just not here's my little inventory and I could be wrong and up but okay, you start with the German idealist.
You, and I have said of god of you, know forever and you've got it all over the place in writing.


00:38:47
They did not have what we would call an integral transformative practice.
In fact I mean their practice was intellectual inquiry, but, and so you get no projection of what we're human nature might go.
In fact, when Hegel projects any future for the end of his life - and you know, you've made a lot of statements of the German state represented the guys in the Third Age of the spirit.

Well, that was what we would call a very bad call.
Is this? So shall we get the birdsong and he did say the finis -- tx was a vanguard of evolution.
He saw intuition forming.

He definitely was on the right track, but there's again not a not no real practice, no of a vision of a higher psychology or anything like that.
Yeah next song, Beth Sun also is has a pretty bad pre trans fallacy going.
He like so many greats.

He understood that higher deeper realities are, in some sense non rational, but he confuses pre, rational, sort of sensations and and vital functions with trans, rational intuition, a lot yeah and was actually been criticized by some of the you won't even pre, just shown criticize it.
For that, but the evolutionary impulse is certainly right on the money right, but it's it's pretty slim pickins right and then recently I've rummaged around a little in Payard and again you know, he's filled with poetic, wonder and eat these notes here in it.
But again, there's no real, I mean well, you know it's sweat, like it's very, very slim and I think it's one of the reasons you know.

I think, particularly you and I are probably the casualties of this as much as anybody, which is that in the general, a you know, alternative field, transpersonal field, human potentials, field, people.
Basically, they don't want to get involved, in quote thinking about larger systems, because they think that that's somehow detract from your capacity to feel or be aware, which of course is a bit s of nonsense.
But, and on the other hand, though, when you actually get into it, it requires a bit of work.

You have to have a really developed cognitive capacity and I maintain you have to have a very, very deeply developed emotional capacity or you can't feel the importance of these notions yeah, and so so it's much easy.
You know people will look at something like future.
The body or they look at something like SES and they'll, go wow great, unbelievable nifty, and then they go on about teaching the stall therapy or you know yeah are quite about doing pop asana and it just doesn't really change their practice very much right.

It's very hard to do.
Well, you know and that's another subject.
Here too, I am, for example, I started this meditation group, it's been going seven months out and I must say it is time lit up.

It's wonderful and I loved it and I loved it and now they want me to supplement it with a theory group, because I I get into the real nitty-gritty of meditation, sharing my perspectives and what I know and somehow there's a presence in this group.
I tell you, I believe it and the drive in that group to meditate is something I tell you.
I've never led a class over time.

I've done.
You know our ICT groups, but meditation was a just an element.
This is totally meditating, but as soon as you start doing meditation, I want to argue, the graces starts to be given immediately and there are physical graces.

That is the various good physical changes that start to happen.
Then there are the cycle, energetic races.
Let's say the realm: what I call kindergarten Kundalini and then there are the various Ananda's and pleasures.

I have my little catalog of the Ananda idea and that they've never heard of this and then there's a very much families of knowings are kinds of knowing that's that and their difference.

00:43:10
Organize it.
But in any case, there's different modes of recollection and then there's different families or kinds of great that are given and then finally, I try to bring in is our interpretive scheme and with dick Baker, calls wisdom, saying that is crystallizing statements now.

This is what the apana shots are full up, that open up, it's kind of like tapping, a saturated solution and enjoying the crystals come, but you got ta set it up so that they work and you do that to practice any in doing all this I'm struck.
Can is this kind of forced me to change my mind about people, openness and capacity, to understand what you and I might call the big bit off the big vision, the integral vision? Very much, I I think, maybe I'm being too hopeful.
Maybe I'm gon na find out I'll keep checking in with you, but I'm surprised how they light up around these ideas.

They've all been practicing somewhere, for you know from anywhere from students 40 years so anyway, I think there's a rich frontier in right now in this interface between the kind of larger theory building that that were involved in - and you know in well I'll, tell you why I think yes, I'm actually how I personally agree with everything you're saying and second of all, I myself have had really in the past two or three years, a very profound change in my own view, about the nature of let's call them: mental schemes or cognitive maps Or sort of interpretive frameworks - and it might seem odd that I would have the type of opinion I had - which previously my opinion was that these were just sort of interpretive schemes.
They were incredibly useful.
Obviously I spent a great deal of my life on them, but I sort of downplayed them in the face of trans mental spiritual contemplatively could, for example, go through a truly deeply contemplatively, get into deep states of consciousness, which is nirvikalpa, jnana samadhi, eventually into saw hajj Or bhava, samadhi and so on, and that these interpretive maps are all very, very important, but they were really crucial in any any sort of sort of depth of understanding or special of understanding.

I've come to believe it's almost the opposite and for many many many reasons, and it also ties in with an increasing understanding of what we can in a very simplistic way call stages of consciousness and states of consciousness and for a long time, I've had the understanding That people within certain limits could get into all sorts of different altered states of consciousness, but they would interpret those states according to whatever stages of development or evolution that they had present and I think, that's still very, very valid.
I just think it's even more valid.

00:46:09
We're not just pick a couple random examples.

I know many many highly develop meditators.
They can get into meditative States very quickly and profoundly.
They can get into savikalpa samadhi.

They can get into nirvikalpa samadhi some extent, even in Sahaj or open eyes.
Non-Dual states of awareness, but their center of gravity and excuse me I'll just use spiral.
Dynamics is one example of the stages, but their center of gravity is orange or green and they come out its green and they interpret these profound Buddhist states in a flatland post, modernist, four-dimensional relativistic way, yeah.

That is just just really a travesty.
In certain senses it doesn't mean that their states aren't authentic.

00:46:59
Is that the interpretations and the stages that they're interpreting them at are less than are possible.

If you, let me just give a few more quick examples and then see how they all hit you.
So you can kind of get the gestalt of this.
I've also had people that are have a really deep kind of enlightened awareness of realization and they'll go through something like SES or breathe.

History and they're really kind of walked through what quadrants mean and levels and lines and so on and find their own account, even though simply reading something like that, could not really produce a profound realization.
By going through it, it actually deepen and clarified their own realization.
They realize that they were interpreting some of these trans or Supplemental States in an incredibly less than accurate or adequate or integral fashion, and it was crippling their own realization and that's what I'm finding so many people with spiritual teachers that sit down and go through this.

Their own realization, by their account, becomes deepened, so I've started to give a whole lot of weight to the type of stuff I was doing, but I even used to give a whole weight to yeah.
I think the interpretive skiing stuff you've got a shitty interpretive scheme.
You've got a shitty enlightenment.

Well, I totally agree with this.
I totally agree when I - and now I bring this up to my meditation group.
You know all the time about what does this mean for integral practice yeah if you're gon na go back now and take this experience as the one and only and particularly if you disregard these incredible flowers, I figured this group tells me the damnedest things.

I never heard of this word can and I'm discovering and learning from them.
Yeah a bakery says it's the same with him so anyway, the interpretive scheme, yeah, is insane amen.
Brother there's a kind of a simplistic scheme that I tend to use and you've heard this before.

But I think it really is helpful and I mention it because it might be something that you would find useful with your meditation class.
When we talk about evolution after enlightenment, a lot of people get a little bit confused because they have this whole notion, of course, that you get to enlightenment and they have a thought beyond that, it's sort of like you get to enlightenment.

00:49:19
Everything goes up in life and that's it and it appears yeah.

So there can't be anything after enlightenment, but traditionally the Enlightenment stayed just really meant nirvikalpa.
It met nirvana.
It meant that there was the manifest realm of samsara yeah and that's in separation, alienation, duality and dukkha period right, and you want to get out of that anyway, to get into Nirvana, which is fun, manifest, erode cessation formless.

That's it once you get into that and stay there.
That's enlightenment! Now the kontrick traditions, the great revolution that was brought by the Guardian up in the East and exemplified by Platonists in the West, was the union of emptiness and form, and that meant the union of samsara and Nirvana.
So once you got out of samsara and into a nirvanic realization, then the state and there's the trip down.

You then had to take that formless realization and unite it with a world of form in every single last step, and that was the essence of Tantra.

00:50:18
Whether they lived up to it or not, is a non dual realization that samsara and Nirvana are not two right and so that that was put once everything that happens after that point is innocence, development, post, enlightenment.
So, once that you realize that the emptiness and form are not to you as a direct realization, then form itself continues to evolve and unfold, but now as a radiant expression and Transfiguration of emptiness of spirit itself yeah.

So that nirvana experience with Nirvana, because it's formless is an experience of freedom, radical absolute freedom and then the experience of samsara or manifestation is an experience of fullness.
So the union of emptiness and form is the union of freedom and fullness.
Now in the world of form or the manifest realm quote, samsara evolution occurs, development occurs, it's continually unfolding getting more and more complex, more differentiated and integrated.

It's getting fuller and fuller and fuller all the time, and but the world of emptiness are strictly speaking, the formless realm nirvana that doesn't change that that's in itself doesn't have any parts doesn't have.
Any qualities obviously doesn't evolve exactly so, but then in the world of form gets fuller and fuller and fuller with evolution right.
So what we can say, cuz people always getting upset with this kind of thing because they want to.

They want to misinterpret what we're saying in one of two basic ways: one they want to say: oh so you're better than Buddha huh and he go no.
No.
Nobody was freer than I mean you can't get any freer than through that, but you can't be fooling.

Oh man yeah, so what he realized the bomber, it's the same Nirvana, it's right! So we're not saying that anybody's, freer or more radically transcendental, but the world of form to conspire and pull it.
So we're not free other than Buddha.
But we can be fuller because there's more things going on in the manifest beautiful, I think so cause he gets everybody there.

You get it all way to say it.
Our shaman can kind of realize that empty ground Buddha can real side of the ground.

00:52:24
We're not better in any sense like that, where any spirit itself is manifesting, the realms that become fuller and fuller, and so, of course, the people thousand years from now they won't be any freer than we are, but they'll be fooling bet back again.

It works.
Doesn't it that well thought that is perfect and I think we need to keep developing this more and more because you know I eat the phrase I kept using an an event is the one.
The one right is our base camp for all further adventure.


00:52:55
Now the one is for me, I would not want to say it's the Sahaj.
You know for our dinner.
For example, he was, you know you called the causal realm.

I would equate with the nirvikalpa right like yep okay, so he had that in this yogi Li me in January of 1908 and as he said, Nirvana walked into him.
He was surprised by it and it's and his descriptions, for example, this long canto in Savitri describing that stage I've never seen one to top that, but then, when he was in the Alipore jail, he had this realization dawning of Krishna everywhere everywhere he looked was Chris Run and that evolved into this sense of the cosmic consciousness and I would argue, cool realization of the Sahaj yeah, but then, after that, he started to have his realizations of these further unfoldment in the Sahaj.
And that is why it's in the triple transformation super month.

Well, yes, and then he got to super mind and they have his own vision was evolving and how he how he changed the rewrite of the life survive.
You know he rewrote it in 39, it was published in 39 40 and there are a lot of differences between how the first take that came out in the Aria magazine between 1914 and 1920, and he added that chapter of the triple transformation which is specific on One of the things about the super month, as I recall - and it's also brings up a good point - that if he had lived another you know 20 years, he would have rewritten it a third time right and that's the whole point.
So that's right and that's one of the things that I one of the many things I still admire about.

Your word is that I don't know any systematic Baker who is so assiduously kept saying.
Okay, you're come over briefly, I felt wonder you were hitting.
It will be five, that's what their that's.

What the post metaphysic stuff is being called all the different methodologies and based on an extensive practice of indigenous perspectives.
You know first second person that kind of thing.
Well, I think you said either great role model there.

In other words, to say, look i i'm not i evolving myself.
I should be able to involve everybody else, get to do what happened.
I think it's a hell of a good.

I get the great model and and so well in the last month.
The other thing history, you know we were talking about some of the two things that we could criticize about and and one of them is sort of saying.
Well, you know, you think you're better than buddha and we say no, no, we're not we're, not freer, but we are fuller, just as people that was in there for the very night or the elation, and the second one is, you well know, is he that is A particularly traditionalist they want to prepare that are very used to sort of thinking of the nirvanic state as changeless beyond all change, not you know not not in any way involved in inform.

They want to say something like.
Oh so you're saying that people have to go through all these stages in order to have this realization and what we're actually saying is no people can have a realization of nirvikalpa at almost any city exactly exactly, but if you want to express it in the fullness, That's possible at this space and time you get with the evolutionary picture exactly yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.
I think we're totally in agreement here I am, I see my work is having been routed all the way along in that view from yes are you are a Bindo yeah and, and so you know my fiction, I've described the people, the constant thought experiment on what An actual life might be that is rooted in this in the one in Sahaj they so now.

I, for example, done a prequel.
I don't think I'm going to publish it for golf in the kingdom where I really you know it's pushing out into science fiction inside, and you know the problem with that is it turns out for me.
I like to keep it back into what I call occult or mystical realism.

You know I'm working on the screenplay for the movie run.
You know my folks had not met it yet out there, where it's ugly bursts into parable, is a sin science fiction, but to keep it close to what people actually experience it can resonate with, but anyway.
So that's that's where I work.

You know the course.
That's what George and I are trying to do with the ICP right, but we are essentially deeply embedded in them in this view that that you just enunciated well, and that is still, as you know, it's kind of thin and as their same part of the difficulty Is it's true that the Vedanta and the Buddhists tend to play more to this sort of stages are not required evolutions that require development? It's not required, and this sort of emphasizing more than nirvanic self containment of the formless realm that they don't understand why the development or evolution of form is necessary for the expression it's actually.
The rupa kaya gets fuller and fuller and fuller, and therefore, if you want a union of dharmakaya andrew pacaya, then you have to have exactly that.


00:58:06
Exquisite balance, which is you do indeed have to have a realization of dharmakaya, is what the quote pagan approaches.
Don't have it or the back to nature or the board on earth or the Gaia approaches.

00:58:16
They understand.

If you know the phenomenal realm and the importance of being one with that, but they don't have a grounding and emptiness or the prior formless row.
They they don't have, they have a fullness, but they have no freedom.
They are in fact addicted all amen and, of course, that some in the strange man dreams of my life right now, the thing that's calling me right now, I just between you and me buddy is near the comp.

I understand, I'm serious got ta.
Take a timeout here because I get go-go-go all in the name of uh.
You know this evolving, you know integral.

You know Sahaj right enough, but I guess so I so as a practical thing, absolutely you need.
I think it's a part of my heart.

00:59:04
So you know he's flying free, but he's always got one web in the water exactly and the reason I think I've had this cold so long.

It's driving me back to just skip and everyone's telling me slow down.
Oh my mother, my mother, even understood these things.
Well, that's that's why I am thinking of a feature of the bodies reader as a backup yeah.

Well, that's awfully awfully care of you and I said I appreciate that.
Well, I've got to put that in the hopper for sure, but anyway, this conversation, we've just had, would be awfully valuable to a lot of people.
I know you're you've been getting at the same conversation, of course with Andrew, and you know whatever one thinks of his magazine, you got to give him, I think, an A for balding us and oh, and if that's the only magazine, that's really dealing with any of These issues right, so I've always really appreciated him.

For that - and I think even as critics really say you know, we're really glad he's doing the magazine and he said he stopped there doing this stuff and and he's they're very much alive of the necessity of just that of innocence playing both sides of the street.
You have to have a real, strong, profound realization of emptiness, and that really is your original face.

01:00:23
It's the face you had before the Big Bang.

I really have to know that yeah, but you really have to unite that with the world of phenomenal form and fullest possible expression that you can.
You know because it takes obviously on the on the fullness side of the street on the on the manifest side of the street in order to come up with an integral philosophy, and I have to keep reminding people, that's the quadrants levels, lines and states.
That's a map of samsara, it's a map of the manifest domain Ryan, so you know nobody's mistaking that since our ultimate reality.

But that is the well my critics to you.
But you know what else is new, but I don't if it seemed that way.


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