Transcription: Josh McDowell Shares His Heart about the Ravi Zacharias Scandal - YouTube

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We are here to talk about a topic today that i wish.

Frankly, we didn't have to discuss a topic.
That's heartbreaking on so many levels, and i have someone here with me.

Obviously somebody that i know i love i look up to that.

I think can bring some really wise insights and experiences to the sex scandal.
That's been tied to ravi, zacharias apologist and evangelist.
I'm not going to go into some of the details before we start you can google it and find online exactly some of the details that have happened, but an outside firm, essentially concluded from sexting to sexual misconduct, to even cases of rape, ravi zacharias did in fact Engage in sexual misconduct.

Well, i want to bring my father josh mcdowell on to give his wisdom, because dad, i think you offer some really unique perspective for two main reasons.
One is like ravi, you are an apologist, a popular apologist sold a ton of books.
Uh have a platform, have a ministry named after you, so from a ministry standpoint, but also for the past few years you have shared that you have experienced really severe sexual abuse when you were younger and were not believed.


One of the hardest days of your life is when you were not believed, so i think you bring an understanding of the hurt, that's caused the victims, but also a ministry perspective that desperately needs to be heard.
So let me start by just asking this question: what would your words of encouragement be to somebody who is either just a sexual abuse victim outside of this issue, or maybe somebody who was abused in particular by ravi and just is trying to make sense of this? Personally, is there hope or encouragement for that person? Whenever i address this issue, i like to point out two things: i've learned over the years and dealing with so many people in this area, one it can happen to anyone.

I don't care what your spiritual standing is reputation, how many books you've done talks you've, given how many churches you pastor whatever it can happen to anyone? Second, i can look almost every person.

I say it wasn't your fault.

Most people think well, it was my fault.
I don't think i've ever found a situation where it was a victim's fault and i think that's important to realize it wasn't your fault and then what would i say to a victim yeah? Do you have a couple hours? I would the first thing i could do for them would be to listen to him and just say you know tell me about your experience.

Tell me about your spiritual journey and how this affected it and let them talk and while they're talking don't interrupt them.

But when the opportunity comes at the right time, ask for informative.
Ask informative questions.

In other words, don't ask a question that you're wondering ask them a question uh about them.
Well, how did that make you feel? When did you say that happen? Who was involved? It's? What i call active, listening and you're pursuing information that they're sharing and it tells that person wow, he's really connected he's right.

He understands what i'm saying and that's so important, so i would always ask that person for their journey.

What's been your spiritual journey? How has this affected that uh? If they're married, i say how's, it affected your marriage how's.
It affected your perspective and view and relationship with christ.

How has it affected your church, attendance and all so probably for the first time i met with him.

I just asked him questions and listen.
I've had to work hard over the years to be a good listener, boy dry throat, and then i would say i would ask them if they want help in this area.
Some people don't i'd, say.

Would you like help in this area and i would say 80 90 would say yes and i say, would you mind if i share with you my perspective and then i would go into my perspective of why what and how to deal with it.
So those are the first things i would do with the victim, and then i would definitely, i would say at least three times with a week in between follow up with them.
Just give them a call or text me.

How are you doing thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing that? Are you doing? Okay today? Are you making it through the day and uh? It's interesting.
You can almost progressively see people get better by the third talk.
It's like a different person, a more positive attitude.

Everything in dealing with it dad, even though you're an apologist.
I appreciate that you've talked about this issue with honesty and tenderness, and vulnerability, because i think we're really realizing how big it is culturally in ways we didn't understand the past.

Let's shift and talk more particularly about the ravi zacharias scandal.

A lot of people want to know what you think, but tell me the first time some of your first memories of just ever meeting him.
How long ago was this? What were your impressions give us a little history of the relationship, your mom? Could he could answer a few things like this? Every time i went to the northeast boston further north whatever and spoke for two three years, this young indian man always showed up and he would always come right down front.
If no seats, he would sit in the floor and he would always jump to his feet and come right up to me to get first in line for questions, and he always had some really profound questions.

And i remember several times i went back to hotel with dottie and i said boy there was a young man there tonight, an indian fellow that he's gon na go places.
She would always say well how do you know he asked the right questions? He asked the right questions, and so i got to know robbie through him following me around in the northeast, and so when he would have some challenges.
He would call me and later on in life.

I would call him and then i think the relationship changed a little when you remember this.
We were at the olympics in atlanta and i called up robbie and said: hey my family's here and you.
Why don't we get together and have dinner together i'll pray? You pay, he said, okay, and so we met in that restaurant.

We sat around the table with possibly a son and two daughters, i'm not sure, but you were there and one or two of your sisters were there and we spent about three hours and mainly was robbie talking which we wanted.
We just asked him a lot of questions and everything, and after that it became a little more of a personal relationship, and if anyone would have asked me who's, the one person in the world you know would be the last person this would ever happen to.
I wouldn't even hesitate, i would have said robbie zacharias wow and not only me.

I think many in the world many professors at oxford, many leaders, all through asia.
Everything would say the same thing.
I've never been so taken by surprise and i'd have to say hurt than when it came across my plate, and i didn't want to believe it and i checked it out, and i mean it was one of the saddest days yet of my life when i had To admit it happened, it happened and i wish ravi were alive not to defend himself but to explain himself i'd like to know if he had any remorse if he struggled with that, i don't think he did because one of the women he raped and a couple Others said every time he finished he'd always say: let's pray together and thank the lord for this opportunity.

Oh my gosh, i i so that pretty well shows there was no re, no remorse and if my heart goes out to anyone, it's not just the victims.
It's his wife and children.
I cannot even begin to imagine what they're going through what they feel their questions, their doubts um defending their husband defending their father with all these accusations.

Uh i've so wanted to call each one of them, but somehow i've been hesitant too.

I don't want to say: well, you just want to take advantage of a situation.
Why don't? I would only do it if i could, minister, to them and encourage them, and that would be mainly just listening to them uh.

So i say anyone listening now.
If you come across someone who's been a victim, anything like that, listen and then, when you finish, listen again, then, when you finish, listen again dad one of the questions i saw in the comment side that people have wrestled with and there might not be an answer - Is a number of people have asked me, they have said: is this a person who was a complete fraud from the beginning or somebody who was caught in a double life and the pressures of his public life and the demands of his schedule? Demands of the scheduled public life has nothing to do with it.

I always say: if you can't take the heat get out of the spotlight, the world will run just right without anyone, god doesn't need us, he desires us uh.

The world will not stumble regardless.
If the pope fell, that'd be interesting, but anyway uh i.
What was the question again? I'm sorry, i so.

For example, david wood, our friend apologist, talked about how he his best assessment was that ravi probably lived a double life and just started hiding sin and it barreled and snowballed versus others who have argued.
No, i think he was just a complete fraud manipulating this from the beginning.

What are your thoughts even on approaching that i've never met anyone or know of anyone that started out as a complete fraud? I probably spent time and listened and asked questions to maybe 20 people of which maybe 12 14 were top leaders in the world who took the skits actually and one it's very subtle.

People excuse it.
I deserve it, i need it uh, it's very subtle and it it seeps into your lifestyle.
I think uh little by little by little and each time you make a wrong choice to turn to it.

It becomes more profound in your own dna, where i would say after several years it became ravi zacharias and that started a double life um.
I've had several people say this to me because i'm getting calls from all over the world and say um.
He uh.

I always thought he was a man of god.
I always thought he taught the truth.
How can i believe the scriptures and everything after this, and i point out that when god said my word and robbie taught his word, he taught the gospel he taught discipleship.

My word will not return void, it doesn't say if you stay pure, my word will not return void.
It will not return void in spite of the messenger.
It is true in spite of the messenger um, but the problem.

Is it taints the truth? For so many people yeah, because the one delivering it is often the building foundation for believing it and understanding it uh.

It's like many authors and i could name three or four right now: i've written some incredible books, one man was probably the most influential evangelical in the world more than billy, graham or anyone, and he had probably one of the all-time best selling books ever and he Took a deep nose, dive and immediately bookstores and everything: should we pull his book? Should we pull his book? I said that's a difficult question.
You personally are going to have to answer, because what he wrote in the book was true.

It was good, accurate, biblically based culturally relevant, and so does that dismiss what he taught.
No because truth is truth, regardless of how you present it, and but if i were a store owner, it'd be tough for me to carry someone's book like that, for example, with that same person, i was scheduled for a huge convention in indiana of about seven.
Eight thousand people - and this other person was one of the four speakers on the platform right during this whole thing, and i called him - and i said, gentlemen - i am not comfortable coming and letting in lending credence to his lifestyle, no matter what he says is so Crowd, pleasing intellectually everything i said: if you bring him in, i can't come and the guy kind of giggled and said well, i guess we'll get along without you, wow wow, yeah and um conventions like that, will end up paying a price they'll end up paying a Price and i've always prayed that no one would ever have to say that about me question being on the platform with me or reading my book or listening to me.

So that's how i deal with some of that sean i want to.
Let folks know writing comments in here that i'm seeing these comments, a bunch of them are coming up and some of the questions we're going to get to and at the end, if we have time want to make sure we can tackle some of these as well.

Dad here's my thoughts on the resources.

I i couldn't share a resource with somebody, because i think a lot of people are it's difficult to just separate the message from the messenger.
It's human nature.
So, like the book seeing jesus from the east was to me one of the more insightful books i read last year, but i could never share it with somebody unless i really felt like that person had profound discernment to separate between it.

I wouldn't share a video i've come to.
I would probably read it again, even though i've read it twice, uh, it's it's one of the most insightful books on the east and everything in thought life, but you're right.
I couldn't recommend it.

Unless somebody really had a problem in this area - and i could context the book yeah, what would you say to those who are either led to christ through his ministry or strengthened by it and i've gotten emails and tweets and people just saying things like this - is Rocking my faith on a deep emotional level, what encouragement or wisdom would you give to those first of all, ravi zacharias didn't save you.
Jesus did.
Ultimately, you grew through christ uh.

This is a good warning to be very careful where you place your faith on truth.
Now you look in hebrews, there was a hall of fame.
I think it's important for people to look up to people that have ministered to them, and this is why be those people in that position have such an awesome, scary responsibility uh the way they live? Everything uh, i would say it's one of the biggest motivations i mean my greatest motivation is to live a life pleasing to my savior uh, and if i do that it doesn't matter what else other people say if i live a life that is well pleasing to Jesus, it doesn't matter what others say, but i got ta make sure i'm not deceived in even thinking that and looking at it, but uh.

One of my greatest fears would be if something never happened like this.
In my life that people i've led to christ, which are hundreds of thousands um, i mean it's in multi-millions who have grown through my works through hearing me, speak the books, the internet and everything, and i'm grateful for that and it's one of my greatest motivations to Stay pure to stay, faithful to make sure there's no disconnect between what i teach and what i live and i'll tell you.
This sean you've got to listen to others.

The person that can be the most deceived is yourself, no matter how sincere you are, and this is where, if you're married and got a good relationship with your wife and she's discerning like your mom.

What, if something like this happened to me boy, your mom would nail me and it would break my heart thinking what it would mean to you to your three sisters into mom.

Just that keeps me being very, very careful what i do.

What i say where i go, who might who am i with, and this is where i'm thankful for campus crusade - they really keep thumbs down on you.

They really check you out, uh, i'm known and crew, where usually they call you just to see how you're doing you staying fit.
What's this, and i remember steve, sellers or steve douglas, who was a global president that time said you know i've never called josh.

Everybody goes what, because he always calls me i found out the best way to have a lot of freedom is to keep in touch with those you report to keep them informed.
Let them know what you're doing, and that gives you it gives me more freedom over the years.
They trust me and um.

So that's some of the things that helped me, but the ministry gmmm ministry, and mainly thanks to dwayne, zuck and laurel milton they've, been with me for years.
I mean, i think, dwayne's been with me 25 years years with with laurel, they run the ministry and they run my life and they have worked out and worked with me to come up with some incredible safety factors in our ministry.
In my life, everything uh i mean just, for example, i'll - never stand in a hotel lobby and talk to a woman for more than three minutes.

I won't get in the car alone with a woman, and this brings me a lot of criticism, because church's conference is a senate woman driver to pick me up to bring me to the conference, and i tell them ahead of time - do not send a woman and They just think that's so cheesy they send a woman anyway, and i end up taking a taxi and boy.

They just criticize me for that, but i tell each one of them.

If i were to fall.

Morally, it's people like you'd, be the first one.
To criticize me - and it would be you'd - be the first one to criticize me and um - i never.
I never go anywhere alone with a woman um, it's just it's deadly.

It can be no matter who you are uh, but dwayne and laurel have been two people, and god will use other people in your life.


If you let them that means you got to be vulnerable and transparent and honest.

We're going to come back to some of the accountability structures that you're kind of citing that for speakers for pastors for ministry leaders to build in.

But one of the discussions around this topic has been what's been dubbed celebrity christian culture that enabled this that he was larger than life.

He had a ministry named after him.
So let me ask you a few questions.

One thing i've never asked you is.
Why did you name your ministry, josh, mcdowell, ministry and with what's happened with ravi like if somebody high up in biola had a scandal it wouldn't take biola down because it's not built on their name, but rzim was so we've seen canada pulled out this morning.
The uk has pulled out it devastates the ministry in so many people.

What are your thoughts on naming and ministry after that? But let's start with why at the beginning you did it.
I can't believe billy, graham named his ministry after him, but thank god.
Yes, you can talk about ravi on this hand, but there's many billy grahams out there.

In this hand, i'm sure if no ministry is ever named after anyone, it wouldn't make any difference.
I really don't uh.
I don't think that's the problem.

I feel uncomfortable.
The ministry named after me - and i can't tell you how many times i wanted to change it.
My staff would walk me through it and say no not right now, but it's interesting because yesterday i'd say for two three hours driving around doing errands and everything.


I was thinking about the same thing that i wish it wasn't named after me, but on the celebrity profile i wouldn't want to do away with the concept of it.
Why robbie was real more real than life.

He administered to a lot of people in a powerful way, uh starting at oxford university and all he wrote some incredible books that has really lost a lot of people.

He's helped me in my life in ministry and i've always looked up to robbie, but it's important in discipleship in the church, everything to make sure that we understand our ultimate, not celebrity the ultimate person we place.
Our vision on our trust and our faith is jesus.

Is jesus but god uses people to minister to you, god uses people to write, raise up movements.

He uses people to rise up ministries, emphasis teaching, seminars, conferences and uh, give credit to those it's due, and for most these people that i know they paid a price that the average christian would never want to pay and wouldn't pay.

Most of them have worked.
So many hours night and day not to glorify themselves initially but to glorify christ to see more people hear of him and come to christ and discipled and and send them out, and it's good that people have models like that.

But i think a lot of it depends on the person.
I think you watch a person for a while.
You can tell where their sites are set.

I i do now, then.
On the other hand, you take people like robbie and i think people like me and many others.
I can name who are uh.

What would you say, blown away personality, a aggressive, i didn't even know there were 23 other letters in the alphabet.

I just thought a: was it but a personality, a who becomes a little deceptive can look somebody right in the eyes and convince them they're telling the truth when they're absolutely lying through their teeth, a personality, a can do that.
God made him that way, and this is where the holy spirit needs to convict, and i wouldn't i wouldn't join a church where the pastors and the staff are not accountable to other people.

I wouldn't it's you're setting up for a downfall.

In fact, i wouldn't even attend a church if the pastors were not on covenant, eyes, uh image and search thing on where you go with your eyes and what you see and all i forget, what they call it: accountability sure i i would go to church so That wouldn't have, because why that pastor is so much more vulnerable to letting himself his family, the body of christ, his church, his leadership for a big letdown and - and i would always say well why don't you want it on there i mean i could not take My cell phone or my ipad and carry on an affair two or three people read all my emails.
My text messages everything uh, i mean if anything suspicious is even seen the image on my phone.

Let alone goes to a website or anything.

It immediately goes to dwayne, zook and laurel milton, and they see it and uh that that's a good counter balance for the other pressures in life, uh covenant eyes dot.
Org, probably i would say to any pastor leader, speaker teacher.

I think every christian ought to be on it and people that aren't.
I got to tell you.
It affects my trust of them wow.

It affects my trust of them.
Why don't you have it on your iphone, your ipad, but what blows my mind now? I want to be careful, i say it, but his board his staff for 10 15 years there had to be telltale telltale signs that something's going on here.
I don't care who you are, how good you're at deception, there's still those things that shine through.

I just someday, if god gives me the opportunity, i want to ask some of their board members that uh and then i think, it's irresponsible, where he was given an account of money to use any way he wanted to and no accountability for it, no receipts or Anything one i hope he paid income tax on all that.
Second, he mainly used it for prostitution and there was no accountability.
I mean right now.

I would really be running scared if i didn't have every type of accountability built into my life on relationships.


My marriage, even you, kids, because i know if you saw anything in my life or heard from others, you'd confront me sean.
If you didn't and i found out boy, would i be mad geez you wouldn't need to shave after that? That's true.

Let me go back to the question before about jmm.
You said when you've wanted to change the name.
Your staff has said: no keep it josh mcdowell ministry.

Why? What are the reasons that they would say and you've ultimately agreed with to keep it that way under your name, i already agreed to keep it that way, because the two of them were very strong in it, even though i wasn't that's how much i respect them And their input and wisdom and all and their walk with christ.

If i recall back, it's been a while now is that josh you're, one of the most known people in the world, people identify with your name where they wouldn't identify with crew with you or anything else, and that is true.
Uh i've worked hard to develop a reputation of integrity, honesty and i've blown it.

Oh boy - oh just i thank god.
Nobody blew it up on youtube, but i've blown it over the years, but i build it up and when somebody sees my name on the internet on youtube in a bookstore, they'll want to go to it with positive attitude and know they're going to get something that Will help them grow and understand uh, and so i could see having a ministry named after an individual uh and then i come back and say well, it depends on the individual that makes sense.
Yeah that's fair um, but i know one thing: dwayne and laurel.

If i started to migrate or i started to drift, they would nail me those two people know me dwayne zuck traveled to me for 18 years.
He knows me and i couldn't lie to dwayne.
I don't care if i'm personality, a persuasive or what dwayne would see through it and that causes me to go.

Ah then, i got your mom, the wisest woman.
If, if this was back, when god was writing the bible, he he would have the book of daddy still the book of esther et cetera dad.
Let me ask you this question: um.

If you go back, you know before ravi's death when his reputation, at least broadly speaking, was seemingly secure.
If you had asked apologists theologians upcoming people in ministry, what kind of ministry they would like to have, i can imagine one of the top answers would be kai.
Ravi he's written a ton of books, he has a platform he's traveling around the world.

He's meeting with those who are philosophical oriented would say that yeah well, at least i think these are yeah.
Oh yeah, a big segment.
Would what what lesson should we take away? Because, obviously, the metric of the world is very different than the metric of the kingdom.

So what are your thoughts on that? Whether it's some of the pressures or just difficulties that come with having a platform of that name, that you just speak into people to say you know what here's really what matters.
When it's all said and done, i would say, don't stop doing it.
I think it's biblical to admire people who, god is using who's affected your life and all.

I think it's good to have people like that that will burn within your heart to desire.
I want to be used to i want to.
I never want anyone to say i want to be like josh mcdowell.

I hope people say i want to do what he does.
I want to have the impact that he has.

So it's on the message, not the messenger.

It's on the method, not the man, but i got ta tell you.
I know i know most leaders in the world over the last 20 25 years and most of them are really genuine.

They're, authentic they're humble and i meet some that i'm uncomfortable around, and sometimes i say sometimes i don't because sometimes it could be cultural that i'm uneasy with but uh.

If god moves in my conscience to say something, then i got to speak out and i have to admit: i've lost a few friends and i've had a few people really take tasks with me, because i confronted them and uh.
When you say leaders you mean christian leaders, you're talking about yes.
Well, even secular leaders, uh can be tremendous models.

I think um.
I remember i looked at governor hatfield of oregon.
Now he was a outspoken christian.

Also, but oh he impacted my life.

I mean he had a powerful impact in people's lives and government and everything, and i can't believe i sent him a letter once and said i mean i was a nobody and i said, i'm doing a speaking tour of the country and i'm coming through oregon.

Would it all be possible to spend 15 minutes with you? I've got several questions and you've been such a positive impact in my life.

Oh my gosh, he has a secretary called up and said the governor is really looking forward to meeting with you.

Could you make it 45 minutes and we sat in there for about an hour and a half i did with governor mark hatfield? I mean it was thrilling.
I looked up to him.

I admired him.
I learned from him and i'll tell you this.

If he'd gone, sideways, he'd had a greater impact on me negatively than robbie did, but at the same time i find balance with robbie.

God used him.
God used him in many people's lives and god knew this was coming down the road.
I don't understand at all.

I can't give answers to it all, but i thank god for robbie, zacharia's life and ministry in my life, there's so much positive there.
It's helped me to ride through the negative that makes, but i got ta say i could be a robbie zacharias, except for by the pure grace of god.

When i was a kid, i remember how old i was.

You came home and told me that you got a doctorate and it didn't make sense to me because i only associated doctorate with medicine.
I was like this makes zero sense, but it was an honorary doctorate and i i mean you have a number of them, but you've chosen not to use dr josh mcdowell in different settings.
What are your thoughts on when that came out about ravi using the doctorate, because that broke early? What i mean, why don't you i guess in your life? Why have you chosen not to do that? The reason i don't has no interference or reference to ravi.

Nothing wrong with using a doctorate, an honorary doctorate, because most of them are not giving unless you have earned it, because that that seminary, whatever puts their reputation on the line with you.

But i felt uneasy, even if it wasn't an honorary just me my person.

I would feel easy people introduced me as dr josh mcdowell.
People still do it and i take them aside and say you know i prefer not to be just be introduced as josh um and that's just me.
It doesn't mean anyone else using it, there's nothing wrong.

It's very honorable and people work for it.

Sean you've got a doctorate.
Let me tell you you worked for it, you earned it uh.

I've got five honorary doctorates, you couldn't get five urn doctors, you worked so hard to kill.
You steph would kill me if i tried to get five.
My wife, i once told you kids, i had three doctors, i said.

Wouldn't you call me triple doctorate, daddy.
I remember that for fun.
I do remember that yeah, but i've never, i feel uncomfortable using it.

It's not me uh.
Your reputation should be in your name, not a degree, and that's just me.
It doesn't mean it's wrong when robby used it anyone else.

Unless you pass it off, i don't like the word term earn, because i think i earned the honorary doctorates.
I got i, i've worked harder, most people ever work for a phd, but i can second that but uh it's not me.
That's fair.

I think it was what's interesting.
Is my perspective on this was i'd seen how much you have worked and completely recognize that if somebody called you that i'm like hey, he's worked as hard or more probably than most doctors, i know, but i think, with ravi albert mueller shared a story recently on His briefing about how he was just asking ravi at dinner, hey where'd, you earn your doctorate and he said he gave the most evasive defensive um response to it, so he was pawning off as if he had earned it when it wasn't.
That's where a lot of the deception, i think came in one thing that people have said is: why are we? I was wondering if albert if al asked me that question, i would probably say well in 50, some years of ministry, i earned it.

I think i earned the honorary doctors that i have sure i feel like i'm trying to think of another description for uh institutional doctorate.
There we go an institutional doctorate got it that that that's fair um, some people have said, look ravi's dead.
He can't defend himself.

Why are we bringing this up? What are your thoughts on that claim? I so wish he were alive, because i would have probably flown in and met with him whether he wanted to meet with me or not.

I would have probably forced him to meet with me, but i think robbie, the relationship we had and everything he would have met with me, but i think maybe the lord took robbie home and that's possible.

Um be more specific.

With the question it's um.
I keep forgetting things here because my mind, you say somebody robbing this and my mind goes off drifting there on it because of the relationship we had and the profound impact he had in the world um.
I i i think part of the question was: what's the what's the point some people have said in continuing this invasion.

Investigation rehashing this when he's oh yeah and part of my response is well, there's, probably a ton of victims that are still out there that need voice and healing and be cared for and lessons.
We need to learn to minimize this happening again.

It's not here's the pile on sean.

Here's the point: it's not a private affair.

It's a public and people say to me i'll start addressing look it's something private! Oh! Do i come unglued with that? I said: no, it's not it's public with the ministry you're having the people are exposing everything, it's a public affair, not a private affair, and it's good that this has been happening.
Sean because, as you said, there's so many hurting victims out there and people that weren't even victims that are hurting and they need resolution.

They need understanding that, if nothing more than for your own lesson, it can happen to you be so careful have the right relationships.


The right right precautions in your life - i don't care if you're, a christian businessman, a housewife or whatever uh.
It can happen to you and so i'm, i'm kind of thankful.

It's carried on and i think it's about time to let it go.

It'll probably go another.
Three months, but a lot of people, i trust, will be helped in it just through this broadcast.

If they let it go way back to the beginning.
We wouldn't have this broadcast and i hope it helps some folks.

I do too one of the questions.

I've thought, through with this is you know why weren't some of the claims believed earlier, because the writing was on the wall and i know hindsight is always 20 20.
, but you know had there been more of a willingness to believe the victims.
I think a whole lot of pain could have been minimized.

So i guess i'm asking you i'm trying to find the balance between when we say just believe the victim there's been some profile cases of people abusing that and tarnishing people's legacies and you've told me stories of people when you spoke on college camps is more planting.
Prostitutes in the hotel room to set you up to ruin photography ministry, there's that kind of yeah that kind of deviousness, with the fact that the vast majority of times people won't make up cases of abuse like this, because people don't believe them, people demonize them.
It tars their reputation.

What wisdom do you have for just balancing those two tensions in the public life that you have, but also being someone who shared that you came out and shared the sexual abuse and weren't believed? So you know the hurt of what it means to not have someone? Listen to you it's hard to discern because there are, and now it's not just a few.
Many who have been set up, who've been falsely accused for various reasons and their lives and ministries destroyed.

But it would hurt me to not believe someone that was believable and it would hurt me as much to believe somebody that wasn't believable.

Okay, when you were talking about me, i'm aware three times, and this is when i was doing university campuses, they planted women.

In my hotel room like the last time was years ago, a woman was in the bathtub, with a curtain drawn the photographer was in the the accordion door, closet waiting for me to walk in the nude woman jump out and a picture taken.
That's it.

Nobody believed me, no one would believe me and three times i came that close and each time and whenever i did that it was one of my requirements, somebody else had to walk into the room first and if now it's been so long with this year, lockdown, If i did four or five nights at a church, i would have my driver go up and walk into the room.
First, even now, just just to be safe, wow um, we live in an evil world.
We live in a world, that's decadent in many ways and so feel what it's like to be a victim and not believed.


Oh, it would just destroy.
You would crush you, so it's a delicate situation that many people have to face and i've had to face many times and you will pastors will um.

I've got a couple more for you and then we'll see if we have time for for some questions to uh to pull off here.

But you talked about this some, but are there any added layers of accountability that you would just suggest or bring in for leaders? You talked about um, all your your your cell phones, that every single thing that's sent every text, every email is read by other people talked about traveling with others.
In that wisdom, relationships with people close around you that know you and you build in that accountability.
So people can ask you those tough questions.

Is there anything that you would add that we could learn from this to just do better i'll? Just do it off top of my head give people the freedom to confront you, no matter who you are just say.
If you see anything in my life, my actions, my attitude or anything that you might have any question about, if you don't ask me, then you're sinning and if i respond the negative way to it.

React then confront me with that.

Second, so give people the freedom to confront you, that's one of the biggest things.
That's my second.
If i'm flying to a conference and one of my staff females is flying that conference, we don't go to the airport in the same car.

We don't take the same flight and they don't pick us up in the same car and we do not stay in the same hotel and that elite eliminates a lot of pressure, subtly, morally etc in your life.


Second, don't be alone with a woman unless it's your daughter's and uh your spouse um.
I always tell them if a woman has picked me up, have another woman or a man come with him? Have two people in the car? If i were a boss, i wouldn't take a female secretary of someone out to lunch alone.

I just think that's stupid, and i would have somebody else go with me too.
Especially, people that are in positions of authority need to be very careful about being alone, with the opposite sex, whether it's a woman with a man or a man with a woman.
If the boss, the head of the company, is a woman, then i wouldn't go out for lunch alone with one of the men in my staff.

I'd have somebody else.
Go with us uh, that's important, so never get alone.
Never ride in the same plane.

Give people the freedom the other is.
This is something i do.
Anyone could do it, maybe not in the size of the that i do it, but if anyone and people have asked why do you talk about your kids and your wife all the time when you talk you're, always talking about dotting, your kids and everything i said: Well one: i can't help myself, i said if you were the father of these kids and the husband of dottie you'd talk about them all the time too, but i said i don't want anyone to ever hear me that would walk away, not knowing i'm a monogamous Man in a monogamous relationship and don't you dare to come unto me - i want everyone that ever hears me speak to know.

I am committed to dottie i'm committed to my children, my grandkids and it's a technique.
I use to help me to stay faithful dad.
I love that i've heard you talk about us, kids and mom for years, and i i never even connected that, but it makes so much sense uh to talk and brag, even though pro people might give some criticism about that on the flip side.

Well, i always say to them: well, if you had kids like mine, you'd brag about them too.

Well, that's that that's kind of i've got maybe one more for you and then i know i mean there's a ton of questions that have come through for a few.
More minutes um and then we'll we'll wrap up um.

Let me let me let me ask you to frame it this way.
What would be your encouragement for young ministers just seeing this happen? What encouragement would you give for them? It could be.
Speakers could be pastors.

Could be writers what encouragement for young get a copy of this video and have it transcribed, and let it be your second or third bible these things.
I was what i would share individually with them, get a copy of this.
What do you charge what 80 dollars? No, it's definitely well.

I get 60 of it.
You said, but um get a transcript of this document.

Okay, um, the other.

This is kind of a philosophical, theological cultural perspective.

Ultimately, it comes down to not what you do, but who you are, what kind of person are you? What kind of person do you want to be you often it's very helpful to ask yourself what kind of people do i look up to it'll often reveal your values and your heart uh.
That's how i'd answer that sean? Well, that's that's a great answer.

Dad! I uh, you know all these scandals hit me in different ways, just because it's heartbreaking, but when this one hit just having a father who does a similar thing, as what ravi did i put myself in the shoes, their family and just almost couldn't realize how devastating This would be, and then thinking about the victims, that that would have been the legacy that my father had really left.
So you spoke about your imperfection.
You are you're human and said that a million times, but thanks for being faithful to my mom, thanks for loving us as kids and uh, just staying faithful to the message for for so long uh.

If i did you and your three sisters would show up at my doorstep, we would you definitely taught us to speak truth and to love truth.

Above all, one of the things i say when people you know sometimes people press and try to go.
What's your dad really like - and i say you know what my teacher is the same on stage and off stage - and i've always appreciated that about you.

It's not a show.
It's not a front, i think it's it's it's who you are, and it's encouraging me to to try to live, live that life as well.
Well, there's there's a ton of other questions that could be raised, but i i think, you've given us a lot of wisdom and a lot of just feedback.

If this, when people come up and ask me my thoughts, i'm gon na send this link.
If you know anyone else, who's, just looking for some wisdom and perspective on this um sharing, this with them may be helpful, but dad super proud of you love you you're my hero, thanks for coming on and weighing into this with uh grace and wisdom you're, one Of my heroes, kid golly, i never thought your children would become your heroes.
I never did and you and i tell people he's - got three sisters.

A cut of the same cloth that shawn is sean is exceptional, maybe outside the family, but within the family he's got his equals and his three sisters - and you know what i'm talking about they're they're top class women.

Well, i got ta go here, buddy all right! Love you dad thanks.
So much hey, let's go out for dinner.

I'll pray, you pay! God bless.
You sounds good, see you dad.
How do i get out of here? I will end it.

Oh you .

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